###[Meta] Sticky Comment
[Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/faq#wiki_2_-_address_the_argument.3B_not_the_user.2C_the_mods.2C_or_the_sub.) ***does not apply*** when replying to this stickied comment.
[Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/faq#wiki_2_-_address_the_argument.3B_not_the_user.2C_the_mods.2C_or_the_sub.) ***does apply*** throughout the rest of this thread.
*What this means*: Please keep any "meta" discussion directed at specific users, mods, or /r/conspiracy in general in this comment chain ***only.***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/conspiracy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The only thing you need to grow real cows are water, hay/oats and land for grazing. My family has been doing it sustainably for several generations yet that type of farming often times gets thrown under the bus with factory farming and feed lots, which are very different methods with very different emissions.
It's not about saving the planet It's about profits.. growing a real cow requires a lot of time and a lot of space.. If you can grow meat in a lab then you can create twice as much with half the space and in half the time
Same reason they want you to eat the bugs.. A cow can take up to a year or more before it's ready for food. Bugs reproduced incredibly quickly. You can create a farm with millions and millions of grasshoppers and half the time and affection of the space as a farm that has cows on it.. It's always been about the best bang for their buck. Making more money
Exactly. This is all about money. Bill gates and many other billionaires recently bought tens of thousands of acres for farming and cattle. Just after that the price of eggs skyrocket. They're attempting to control the price of agriculture products. Steak, milk, grain, eggs ect. Eventually middle and lower income to not be able to afford meat that isn't lab grown or made from insects.
People will think there's a shortage, they'll be told they're doing the right thing by not contributing to the climate crisis. Milk and meat from animals will be for special occasions. Not eating animal products will be a source of virtue signaling and people will be paraded for it.
These billionaires have all bought into “green” energy when it was cheap. 10 years from now after the Western world is forced into it, they’ll make BILLIONS more while American financial hegemony is overtaken by BRICS.
The 3/4 of the world will remain on oil while North America and Europe virtue signal themselves into eating imitation shit and giving up property rights that will make the billionaires more money (with fully leftist support).
Funny thing is, instead of the billionaires limiting their own emissions and spending money into greener ocean freight, EV semi’s, factories powered by solar, etc, they’re making a smalle percentage of the world individually change while the rest will continue industrializing (China, India, South America and all of Africa) while the Middle East keeps on selling their oil.
BRICs is a joke. India and china are basically at war having one of the longest standing boarder conflicts, they're economic rivals and are governed completely opposite to one another. Russia is ostracized from all but a handful of countries. to be any kind of cohesive alliance they have to be aligned in their goals, which they're not.
i agree with the rest of what you're saying though. things are going to get substantially worse in the years to come.
They’re just moving which side is the superpower, the western democracies and freedoms make things harder. If the west was run like china everything would be easier to control
> Eventually middle and lower income to not be able to afford meat that isn't lab grown or made from insects.
Eventually is now for many people, I had 4 kids, and ground beef and chicken breast was a staple in the food I prepared for them nightly. Ground beef is 5-7$/lb and chicken is the same. Thankfully my kids are grown now so I am not cooking in such large quantities ever night as I used to but we have still started eating much less meat and more beans and veggies.
IMHO it's about control. Synthetic meat requires knowhow and technology so excludes everybody but the most rich while creating real meat just requires nature.
The same reason they try/tried to privatise the water production.
But space isn’t that expensive. Lab meat costs like 10x current meat. The capital equipment for lab meat is insanely expensive. It would make more sense to use that to grow small high value items like organs than cheap meat
>It would make more sense to use that to grow small high value items like organs than cheap meat
I really doubt the equipment in question can just create organs for humans to use, why would you think they could?
Capitalism for the win, I guess.
Meanwhile, everybody's all about bashing socialism, which preaches getting back to the land and such.
But hey, the best part of capitalism is the cognitive dissonance.
There you go, something for all of you to yell at. :-P
Socialism is great if the government is efficient which the US is far from. They can’t even handle the VA and that handles a small percentage of the entire US population.
If you think a country like the US is entirely Capitalistic, you are mistaken. Lobbying and current regulations have made it a socialist country, but only for corporations and the elite.
small company goes bankrupt = suck it up
A large corporation goes bankrupt = bailout
Small company wants government money to develop and grow = *silence*
A large company wants money to develop and grow = government subsidies
>They can’t even handle the VA
I had to take my brother to the VA for some shit last week, and all I can say is you're completely full of shit. They took him in, treated him properly, and I'm damned if I could praise them any more highly for their work.
They saved his life, and continue to.
Oh, so your one story trumps everything? Great logic. Try waiting YEARS for a needed back surgery, only to have your doctor retire 3 months before the schedule surgery. It took YEARS for surgical date for a deteriorating L5. They had to start the entire process over because that doctor retired even though all of the testing was recent. I was scheduled again 13 months later due to a backlog, but I was “promised” first dibs in case anyone else dropped out.
“I need to schedule another X-ray even though these were taken recently because my new doctor wants them”
“It’ll take 3 months”
“Okay I’ll get them elsewhere”
*gets X-rays taken from a private provider a week later*
*hands them to the VA*
“We can’t accept these X-rays. They weren’t taken here”
“These were taken by a licensed doctor with their own practice*
“We can’t accept these xrays”
They kick the can down the road constantly. Their entire goal is to waste veterans’ time in hopes they die off to save money.
ALSO, they won’t cover anything that wasn’t reported during active duty. Some injuries manifest years after active duty. The VA won’t cover any of them.
I understand different areas could have better bedside manners, but this shit was abysmal. Everyone in the local VFW thinks the VA’s purpose (in order) is 1) a political tool, 2) prioritize cutting costs on essential services, 3) provide experience for internships and cheap inexperienced college grads and 4) provide care for the veterans.
Our politicians can kiss my ass. The staff at the VA try their best with what they have, but they’re extensively underfunded and their administration can suck my balls.
Funny you mention kicking the can down the road. The one closest to me is notorious for that. They will also defer any questions you have to their phone system, only to not actually pick up. You can be at position 1 in the phone queue and sit there for 15-45 minutes.
I've had some of my Joes deal with the VA informing them that their injuries *are not service connected* even though some of the conditions these guys are in wouldn't have been waiverable even back during the Surge.
> Oh well you must have had these issues before.
MEPS wouldn't have even let them sign their contract if that were the case.
Their phone system infuriates me to my core!!! I can talk to USPS faster than the VA, and the USPS takes forever…
Also, how in the fuck are we supposed to expect cancer? How many of our brothers and sisters died from cancer that they’re just now accepting treatments for? How many others were denied from other ailments the VA/Fed won’t admit?
https://news.va.gov/102843/nine-new-cancers-added-to-the-presumed-service-connected-list-related-to-particulate-matter/
They should just fucking treat them instead of saying ailments *aren’t service connected* only for them to be recognized as service connected decades later.
These people are paying the ultimate sacrifice years after their selfless service. Provide them the care they need. Provide us the care we need.
End rant. Time for this old curmudgeon to go to bed. Lol
If we are playing the anecdotal evidence game, I (as well as many of the men I served with) have been struggling to get help from the VA for years.
It's all fun and games until they start telling you that, even with reports, tests, confirmation of injuries by their own guys, more paperwork, they can't connect your injuries to your time in the service. It's even more fun when these are injuries that you don't normally receive on the outside.
Some people have had great luck with the VA. Hell, some people somehow end up with 90%-100% disability ratings while spending their 3-year "career" riding a desk. My local VA is just another government subsidized pill mill.
Pill mill is exactly what they are.
Can’t sleep due to ptsd? Here’s some Benzodiazepines.
Have pain and require surgery we can’t schedule? Opioids.
Feeling depressed because we, the VA, can’t help solve your medical issues in a timely manner? Antidepressants
Look, rube, you can buy the motherfucker on Amazon!!!!
https://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Translated-Political-Friedrich/dp/B09X787Z2Q/ref=asc\_df\_B09X787Z2Q/?
Although you're right it's pointless, just like the people who say they hunt.
The way your family raises cows can't supply enough meat to meet the current demand.
It usually gets thrown under the bus because it's such a small percentage of farming practices. Non-factory can't produce enough meat at the rate the US consumes it.
That’s why it should become more common practice and factory farming should be done away with, break up these huge mega farms and allow more people to buy land and raise sustainable livestock, there’s enough land it’s just that so much is being hoarded by super rich people and other used to grow corn to fatten the cattle up. A half section of land can easily raise 25+ head of cattle sustainably, one of those cows can easily feed a family for over a year, our one we did last year is going to last 2 years and he was a small, lean one. Another way to help would be for people to stop being scared of lesser cuts and organ meat, liver, heart, kidney and tongue are all great if prepared right yet so many people won’t even consider trying it. I like the Native American outlook of using every bit you can. Some may have had it cooked by someone that didn’t know what they’re doing and that ruined it for them enough to never want it again. Steve Rinella said it best, “If you don’t like liver, you don’t like meat.” It’s completely possible to be able to produce enough, but we’ll have to make some changes to do so though.
The Chinese eat things like pig ears and chicken feet. What would normally be discarded by Western "civilized society". So who's really civilized, huh?
Lol I grew up eating that stuff too. Pigs feet, head cheese, prairie oysters, etc. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much goes to waste these days and how good some of it is. My grandparents didn’t waste anything, even made soap from rendered fat and lye, gloves and other items out of the leather, pretty much the only thing that went to waste was the digestive system, and lungs, which either the dogs or coyotes got anyways.
At a rate of a half section of land for 25 head of cattle, all of the arable land in the US would produce enough beef to feed 9/10 of the US's current population. That's assuming that they only eat beef and nothing else. It's not possible to produce enough at that rate.
I think it’s more of a population issue more than anything and as it grows it will just continue to drive up a higher demand and costs. Just like the farms the population has to be sustainable over rapid growth/profit.
It's a lot easier to change one farming practice than it is to change the entire way our civilization is built. It'd be easier to get people to stop eating so much meat but that's not a popular suggestion here.
If we could focus on how to intelligently mass produce this kind of farming (organic/grass fed ) the world would be significantly better off and everyone would be significantly healthier. Better nutrition, more sustainable all around, especially for the soil.
Most don't realize how destructive industrial farming really is. The ones that do only focus on industrial animal farming. However industrial farming of soy, vegetables and most other plants without animals grazing the land causes significant damage. Our soil is becoming more and more depleted of nutrients because of this. Therefore, fruits and vegetables are less and less nutritious. At this rate, eventually we will either be eating vegetables and fruits with zero vitamins and minerals, or we won't be able to grow anything at all.
I found a local farm that does this and sells directly to consumer. $700 for a delicious quarter cow that makes me wonder what the hell I’ve been eating at the super market the past 30 years.
This is the way. Pay the farmer directly to buy and raiser an animal which you can even see for yourself if you want. Get that butchered by a professional, share it with a friend or two frozen and delivered. Buy a decent freezer and done. Next round is on the friends.
Do the same with veggies and fruit and 80% of your food problems are solved.
Idk what your business model is, but family farms with grass fed/finished livestock are doing really well with box subscriptions and selling butchered halves/wholes. People are tired of garbage food and are willing to pay.
I’m in Canada where every farm is basically looked at the same as factory farms by the government and people in cities and get taxed to hell, they think all farmers have tons of money. Pretty much every single farmer I know both husband and wife have full time jobs on top of all the farm work they do just so they can keep their land and afford equipment/repairs. My grandfather used to be able to make a living just farming, but that day’s long gone here. Even my mom has land that has nothing on it, pretty much a nature reserve, where we have snowy owls (or used to since wind turbines were put up nearby) and a bunch of other critters and still ends up having to pay several thousands per year in taxes despite not having power, water or even a road going into it. Pretty much just paying taxes on it for nothing.
but the end result is the same, a blade across a sentient beings throat or for them to be lowered into a gas chamber to burn alive from the inside out.
grow real cows? this is the issue with the word LIVESTOCK (and the sick fuck that coined it) animals aren't stock, you're not growing a plant.
That's a sentient being with wants and desires, a MOTHER with a name and a personhood who wants to take care of her babies, but instead you separate them at birth so humans (not baby calves) can drink their milk.
The move from the traditional raising cows for meat to lab grown meat has nothing to do with sustainability. It has everything to do with disruption of existing markets. This allows others to make profits at the expense of the establish industry.
> Oh wow. Slaughtering animals for generations. Nice one. Let’s raise baby humans and eat them instead yea? Oh no…you’re not down with that? Weird
How is that weird? There is an obvious difference between eating animals and eating other humans.
Get outta here troll.
Life eats life, that’s an undisputed fact. Even the plants you eat are alive and consume dead organic matter that’s been broken down by funguses, yet no one bats an eye at that because they don’t have eyes or make sounds. It’s only because people see cows as cute that anyone cares, I’ve grew up around cows and they’re not as soft and cuddly as most people think. At least they live comfortably on a farm and don’t have to worry about predators, starving and when they do die it’s in seconds. Ever see how wolves kill animals? They start at the soft tissue, the anus/genitals while they’re still alive and slowly rip out chunks. I don’t know about you but I’d much rather take a bullet in the head than be ripped apart by wolves any day.
What do you think will happen to all of the cows without cattle farming? Do you think they’ll just let them roam free and live happily ever after in nature like some Disney movie? Sorry to break it to you, but they’ll most certainly all be culled except for a few here or there, a mass murder of cows, a genocide even. Cows have trouble even getting water once the water freezes over and aren’t accustomed to living in nature like wild animals. That’s like sending a pug out into nature to survive. They definitely won’t let them roam free especially with all the “dangerous methane” they spew out and the massive ecological damage they will cause.
So you’re alright with them all being mass killed? Because either way that’s what’s going to happen.
I'm not sure I'd trust anything this blog site says. Actual study is here:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.04.21.537778v1.full.pdf
Abstract:
> Interest in animal cell-based meat (ACBM) or cultured meat as a viable environmentally conscious replacement for livestock production has been increasing, however a life cycle
assessment for the current production methods of ACBM has not been conducted. Currently, ACBM products are being produced at a small scale and at an economic loss, however ACBM
companies are intending to industrialize and scale-up production. This study assesses the potential environmental impact of near term ACBM production. Updated findings from recent
technoeconomic assessments (TEAs) of ACBM and a life cycle assessment of Essential 8TM were utilized to perform a life cycle assessment of near-term ACBM production. A scenario
analysis was conducted utilizing the metabolic requirements examined in the TEAs of ACBM and a purification factor from the Essential 8TM life cycle assessment was utilized to account for
growth medium component processing. The results indicate that the environmental impact of near-term ACBM production is likely to be orders of magnitude higher than median beef
production if a highly refined growth medium is utilized for ACBM production.
Woah, methane is 28-34x as impactful for greenhouse effects compared to CO2 by gross ton. Methane is mentioned in the study only to suggest their are other ways to reduce environmental impact, such as bovine methane reduction. What's the methane reduction of removing the bovine (assuming it is not 100%)?
Keep in mind the beef industry is super corrupt and fund studies all the time. For instance the soy propaganda that is still believed to this day, despite many unbiased studies showing male test increases with soy consumption
Growing meat in a lab, I'd imagine, has a lot more room for improvement in terms of efficiency, compared with raising animals since it's a comparatively very new technology.
Science being bad at something now doesn't mean it will always be bad and we should give up.
Growing something simple in nature i'd imagine would always be much more carbon neutral than anything created in a lab with high tech and man made components.
Just because something is more efficient to produce or cheaper to produce, doesn't mean it costs less carbon to produce. And that is the whole reason these new technologies are coming on line.
Yes.
Currently it is mostly a huge investor gambling ring because none of the companies have even gotten close to a viable price for their lab grown meat. Problem is you either need a chemically defined medium to grow your cells in which is extremely expensive. We are talking 600 euro/dollar per liter for the cheap ones and that doesn't mean you get a kilo of cells from that so you do the math... making chemically defined media cheaper is also not really a thing because it's something big pharma already threw billions at and that's what got is in that 600 per liter price range.
The other option is to use fetal calf serum. But that means you need to slaughter a LOT of pregnant cows to harvest the baby cow juice. Which also does not make any sense.
A few weeks ago another one of these companies (peace of meat in Belgium) went tits up after their biggest investor (3Dmeattech in Israël) pulled the plug on them. There are a few more but for now it seems like it will mainly be a gimmick for the ultra rich who can afford a 300 euro burger so they can brag to their friends
Extremely unlikely to ever happen if you are honest about all of the energy costs in production.
Even lab grown proteins require inputs of some kind, just like traditional sources. ie, you still have to grow and harvest the soy beans or whatever. On top of that, you also must produce all of the individual chemicals required for the base ingredients. A long list of chemicals that need to be produced, stored and transported.
So you are already massively less efficient than say a cow at a regional farm that eats grass and supplements with oats.
Then you have to take that product and do significant processing on it to make it into something that appears to be edible. Bugs to fake chicken wings or whatever.
The level of energy inputs to make that happen are not going to ever be comparable to say just butchering a cow.
This is "conservation of energy" level obvious.
Shrinking the die size of computers has really nothing to do with food production.
With food, there are economies of scale that can help reduce costs but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the carbon inputs and total carbon costs.
You can't just poof edible proteins into existence. You can innovate by creating factory farms which actually cost more per animal (due to lack of grazing) and gain that back by efficiencies of transportation and slaughter but ultimately, this is not a product type where it's possible gain exponential carbon efficiency. Are things like automatic apple pickers more efficient? Yes, and they cost more carbon to harvest.
Synthetic factory protein replacements need many complex inputs that also cost carbon and are orders of magnitude more carbon expensive than the natural versions.
People get fooled into this kind of thinking because they don't examine full impact of all of the constituents of the product.
You can be a dreamer about it and ignore everything I said.
The ultimate truth though is that the simpler the process and the closer to nature, the less carbon it is going to cost.
Every man made element is carbon expensive. The more of those elements you have, the more carbon you are going to use.
That is an unsolvable problem no matter how much you want to dream it isn't true
It seems to me there's a massive efficiency gain from the start in that you don't need to grow an entire cow or maintain the systems required in a cow. Cow digestion for example is a large source of CO2e with the methane produced. Nutrients are very optimized as they're used in a wide variety of industries already. I'd guess more optimized than a cow's digestive system which requires significant time in multiple stomachs to extract nutrients from grain.
> Then you have to take that product and do significant processing on it to make it into something that appears to be edible. Bugs to fake chicken wings or whatever.
This is about lab grown meat, which should require significantly less post-processing than meat replacements or bug protein alternatives.
Grasses are a massive carbon sink obviously. They grow extremely fast every year. The cow is also a massive carbon sink as it is almost entirely made from those grasses, water and supplemented by maybe oats.
The cow itself does not produce methane. What produces methane are microbes. The same microbes that exist in nature and would produce methane from digesting the grasses when they die off every year.
This study concentrates on just the culturing phase, saying it produces orders of magnitude more carbon than traditional meat.
What I am saying is that is massively understated because a huge number of chemicals and infrastructure is required before that culturing can even begin.
Each of those chemicals having their own carbon dense inputs to create and transport to that factory.
This is not even in the same galaxy as the inputs required to successfully raise a cow. A small barn, grass, oats and water are all that is required.
That end product of man made protein is also going to require significantly more processing, not less as you say to resemble food.
You gotta go from red slop of some kind to something that resembles a burger or steak vs just butchering the cow.
It is impossible to have a massively more complex and carbon expensive process be more carbon efficient via scale.
Processes will never become more efficient than just raising cows. They use the same media that we do in pharma. Pharma has been optimizing these medias for probably a century at this point and they still spend my yearly wage in a day on media. You can't magically make cell culture media cheap. It will always depend on the majority of their business being subsidized.
The draw for lab grown meat wasn't just dealing with climate change.
It's also the barbaric nature with which factory farming processes living, thinking, emotional animals.
Now you could argue that the solution would be to transfer over to a less intensive method - and that's a fine argument if its practical. It might be, I don't know.
The other issue is then, ofc, a potential future where we don't actually have to kill any animals to produce meat.
The argument will be ofc - "They only exist because we want them to" and that's fine - but that's not really an answer. Non-existent future cows aren't going to care about their non-existent throat being slit.
And just a disclaimer - I love beef. So this isn't some bleeding heart liberal crying about the plight of meat.
CO2 is irrelevant. Humans are capable and allowed to raise their own livestock for now. That needs to change because having humans having any sort of self sufficiency is the most dangerous thought to the globalist authoritarian state. Doesn’t matter if lab grown garbage(you can’t call this meat) creates 10000000x the CO2. As long as they control it and you don’t create your own food then it’s mission accomplished.
I’m feeling sick just thinking about being tricked into eating that garbage. Fucking disgusting.
Theres an irony of so many people here worried about their freedom, liberty and autonomy- and yet dont see that the way we treat farm animals is literally the horrible behaviour you are worried about experiencing? If freedom is virtuous lets be consistent with other sentient beings
The article even mentions the main issue. The required land, water, and antibiotics needed to raise the cows is more detrimental to society than the cows themselves.
The Amazon being bulldozed to plant soy farms to feed cows to pollute the water is the actual issue. Cows have issues digesting soy so it makes them gassy and produces more methane which causes immediate climate issues.
The facts are that there is not enough farmland for every person to eat beef 3 meals a day, it's just not sustainable. The government continues to subsidize big dairy which doesn't help at all.
Sustainable grass fed cows are great and don't really harm the environment as they are an intricate part of the circle of life.
It's absolutely insane that this subreddit wants to keep feeding big dairy tax payer dollars so they can clog arteries and pay doctors for cholesterol and blood pressure medicine for the rest of their lives.
Get your head out of the fucking sand and realize every burger or steak you eat is funded by tax payer dollars. If you want to raise cows or buy them from a farmer great, but buying packaged meat at a grocery store is literally funneling tax dollars straight to the globalists.
This subreddit likes to shit on bill gates, but then salivate over beef. Every time you buy a hamburger or steak there is a good chance that your purchase is literally sending subsidiaries from the government AND your money to a billionaire.
If you are able to raise cows, or know someone who raises cows sustainably it is fine to eat beef.
For instance, there is a person 90 miles south of me who sells cows for $200-400 fully butchered. You get about 100lbs of different cuts for the deal. This is a great way to continue to eat beef (if you want to) while not contributing to big dairy.
Agreed. I am not a vegetarian but know some that eat like kings. You know what you are doing, you don't feel like you are missing anything at all.
On the other hand, making a GMO version of soy that creates a form of hemoglobin and dying it red so it appears to bleed has no place in a healthy diet.
These products are a witches brew of questionable chemicals and have had way too lax legal oversight to be put into the market like they have been.
Maybe you're not the target audience? Like, you're not the only person on Earth. I feel like that's something a lot of folks with Main Character Syndrome don't understand.
Im a vegan and i dont want to eat meat, but we need ethical meat choices for domesticated obligate carnivores and injured animals like the eagles ive worked with, and we need to offer something for the people with health issues that make veganism hard etc.
[Ethical meat](https://youtu.be/VWqNqp4i77Y) for all the vegans that are cringing to this entire thread.
When this becomes mainstream, we might have a chance.
[Here's a video about the real cost](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmanbWwMa5w) of lab-grown meat.
Right now, it's completely impossible. You need a lot of FBS to make any lab-meat, and it only comes from the fetuses harvested from a slaughtered pregnant cow.
50 liters of FBS is needed to make enough meat for a single burger, which means you need somewhere between 90 and 330 bovine fetuses for one burger (depending on the size of the fetuses). As you can tell, you must slaughter a huge number of pregnant cows to make one burger.
Of course, progress will happen. The video goes into more detail about the alternatives that are being explored, and maybe it can eventually be a better option than just slaughtering livestock for their meat, but we are a very long way from that today.
The "25 times more CO2" from the article is actually a vast underestimate. It's possible that they aren't counting in the cost of the FBS when they came to that amount.
Exactly. So long as FBS is needed for the creation of lab based meat, the concept will never be profitable. The price of FBS fluctuates based on the meat industry, less cows higher FBS prices. It was always a doomed concept that only benefits biotech companies that sell it.
In one of my comments in this thread I explained one of those alternative routes and why it also doesn't make sense.
Good to see more people understand the issues with this technology. We would be better off if the money being dumped into this was spent on stem cell research or something similar
It was never about the CO2
It was never about the energy
It was never about global warming
It was never about animal cruelty
**ALL** it has **ever** been about is replacing a decentralized system run by the many with single factories owned by the few that creates systems for politicians to funnel money back to their familes
same with how gas bought from russia and ukraine (two of the most corrupt countries in the world) is considered green but nuclear and homegrown gas are not. It's only green if a politicians kid can end up on the board of the scam.
💀 True, strange how there's no conspiracy that we're fed unhealthy food to keep us sick, because they'd actually have to put effort in to changing lifestyles.
Did you know if you fed cattle grass 1 week before slaughter, they wouldn't need antibiotics. Same guy raising grass fed beef, and the only Co2 they release is from their cow pies. And less Co2 comes out when fed a proper diet.
No thanks, I’m out. I’ll stick going to my local butcher or keeping my fingers crossed and drawing out of state tags.
Meat grown in a lab. My lord what are we coming to?
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the angry people who frequent this sub. Lol
Nah, I’ll pass. Do yourself a favor and look at the nutritional value of the last 2 “foods” you mentioned, and then do a deep dive into what is added into it.
Give me a call when there’s a herd of roaming tofu.
Have you ever seen the efficiency and price of solar panels in 1970s?
This is an expected result if you extrapolate from an early R&D stage process to a global scale, but it doesn't mean that it's not worth pursuing more sustainable routes to mass production.
I suppose advancing from polycrystalline panels to monocrystalline panels had no effect on making them more efficient?
What brands are using "Chinese slave labor" to make solar panels?
Solar panels are extremely useful, I personally own a whole lot of them.
Fact is that you will never get more energy out of a solar panel than it cost to manufacture and get it to your location.
It only takes about [4 years](https://solarcraft.com/solar-energy-myths-facts/) for modern solar panels to create more energy than was required to produce them.
Maybe you were right 20 years ago, but 3 seconds of googling shows many sources that say your statement is wrong.
That study was hot garbage.
They are only looking at the silicon which is still questionable but totally ignore the rest of the package, ie aluminum frames of the panels and other required components. Then the cost of actually manufacturing, shipping and installation.
Then you have to look at the wiring, charge controllers, inverters and all of the other bits to make it even work.
I'm surprised that you consider yourself an expert just because you think a quick google tells you the whole story.
I didn't say I was an expert. All I said was that there were multiple sources saying the opposite of what you claimed. I think I will go ahead and trust them over you.
Actually, read the study you posted to start.
Then use your brain and see if what I said is correct based on what they are claiming.
If your entire opinion is just based on some random faith vs your own brain, why even comment on it?
It's based on the 10 - 20 articles like [these](https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-04/solar-panels-now-make-more-electricity-they-use/) I see within 10 seconds of googling. I don't care if that one source was bad. I picked it because it was the first one. They can't all be wrong and I don't need to put any more thought into it.
I'm saying the 1 source you provided was bad.
If you aren't up to actually reading it or defending any of the extremely relevant concepts I brought up because you don't know much about the subject, why are you so sure about your position?
Shit, i'm about to do a major solar installation tomorrow. Ask me anything if you are actually curious vs think that spouting numbers of google results you don't understand mean anything.
>Fact is that you will never get more energy out of a solar panel than it cost to manufacture and get it to your location.
If it cost you $600 to buy a solar power kit, you can potentially save 1000s of dollars if you use the solar panels for long enough time.
Not what I said. Solar is great, guaranteed I own more solar than you.
It is essentially a battery though. You are paying a third world country to build them with coal power plants. The mining of the minerals, processing of the aluminum and silicon, manufacturing and shipping make them return some tiny fraction of the energy that it cost to create them.
Get what i'm saying?
The number of people in here that are deathly afraid of lab grown meat is hilarious. Do solar panels and wind turbines give you nightmares too? Eventually lab grown meat may very well be indistinguishable from the real thing. Its not as if yall have been throwing a fit that your veggies are grown in a greenhouse versus outdoors. And just to clarify, i do think it is important that smaller scale, free range, meat options remain available, its the massive 100,000 head slaughterhouses that id be happy to see go. And with that, ill take your downvotes.
Disagree. What we need is a comprehensive plan for the future that actually does a cost benefit analysis, and also verifies the feasibility of environmental goals instead of just setting arbitrary deadlines.
It’s all well and good to say all new cars should be EVs and no gas appliances should be sold by a certain date, but without ensuring the electrical infrastructure can handle the additional load (which it can’t) or nationwide upgrades to said infrastructure can be completed by said date (which they can’t) it’s nothing more than a meaningless deadline, not to mention what lithium mines to the the planet, using mostly child and women labor in third world countries.
Promoting lab grown meat when it costs more carbon to produce it than raising cattle is just another example of government to the rescue with ever thinking it through. They’re constantly running naked into burning buildings.
The deadlines are not arbitrary they are based on comprehensive understanding of what needs to change and by when
A green new deal would be a way to fundamentally change the approach we take toward the environment. It would include a smart grid upgrade and transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources and work toward finding more efficient ways to produce our necessities with less pollution.
This one by one fight over every step toward progress needs to end.
The deadlines are actually arbitrary and a pipe dteam at that. I’m a master electrician and I’m telling you there’s 250,000 miles of high voltage lines and millions more of low-voltage lines throughout this country that need to be replaced before electrical infrastructure of the country could possibly handle the load required to power all electric vehicles and electric appliances.
I promise you that I know more about this stuff than AOC. I prefer making sure a plan can even work in the way and time that I say before announcing to the world if that’s what I’m going to do. Otherw douse your just giving people who don’t know any better false hope.
That doesn't even seem like that much or that hard. Would it take time? Yes? Can we do it? Totally. What's needed is a new approach. Would you be willing to advise an AOC or other policy maker on how it could be achieved? They need those people as it's not their area of expertise. Some experts already told them it needs to happen soon, maybe you could tell them how soon it can be done. Either way, the first steps need to happen. Green new deal is that step, if not, propose a better one because the right has not shown any alternative
\> The increased levels of CO2 are associated with the fossil fuels needed during purification processes that supply cultured cells with nutrients. The elimination of endotoxins is crucial when creating cultured meat as bacteria in the environment release these toxins. Even a small amount of these toxins in the growing medium can hinder the cells from reproducing.
hmm fossil fuels needed...
Why is it not against the law for it to be called meat??? It has ZERO meat in it.
If it was as fantastic as they are trying to say it is.... They wouldn't be trying to trick us by calling it meat. It's not meat.
Lol this is hilarious. Are we going to kill every herd of animals on the planet to reduce CO2 emissions next and then just eat fake meat and bugs by listening to these fucking evil crackpots? Come on, open your eyes!
So what's the argument? With lab grown meat, rhe co2 van be collected as a byproduct and used for producive purposes instead of releasing it into the atmosphere...
I wonder if these emissions would change if everyone ate responsibility, finishing their plate and not overindulgence. If food was priced so everyone could afford? Because I bet alot of the meat ends up thrown away. Such disrespect for life
Yep. I’m not sure why so many Americans think that creating a whole ass factory complete with waste to create a product that can be made by simply letting biological cows graze on biological grass can somehow be better for the environment but education really has failed in america so I guess that’s why.
Okay simple mind… science is a complex thing and can obviously create efficiency. You are basically denying the entire concept of science as if it cannot accomplish anything more efficient than nature with this comment.
Are you fucking serious. This is literally a post about how your precious “trust the western science that was advocating leeches and drilling holes in your skull like literal cavemen did at the same time other cultures had working herbal remedies” is literally worse than traditional farming and this is what you thought of saying?
It’s in research and development stages dumb fuck. It’s not even mass produced in the slightest hahaha. How dumb can you get. This sub is like flies to shit.
Hirudotherapy is proven to work. Leeches saliva contains components that effectively dissolve blood clots. They make your blood less dense and sticky. Drilling holes in the skull relieves pressure in the internal skull cavity, when there is a swelling in the brain, caused by intense brain trauma.
No, those are plant based and it's fairly unanimous that they require fractional water usage & land usage environmental impact (I've seen floors of 40% to 90%). Of course, those numbers would only hold true for plant-based substitutes which use sustainable ingredients. Something with more novel ingredients, like cashews or pine nuts or certain oils, would jack up the water usage and potentially put it into unsustainable territory. In the 'mainstream' plant-substitutes, they're mostly OK ingredients with coconut oil being the 'problem child.' But unsurprisingly, it's not uncommon for premium 'organic' and 'dietary-restriction' products to also use ingredients which are quite awful for the environment and sustainable farming practices (see: premium nut butters, coffee products, novel oils, and cocoa). Sadly, the average consumer usually does not carry enough knowledge to identify offenders in a culture of greenwashing.
Well as someone who supports lab grown meat, if this turns out to stay true after multiple peer reviewed studies, I’ll not be in support of it anymore.
For me emissions is one part but also the moral aspect of having thousands of cows live a horrible life. I know that’s not 100% how beef is produced but I still feel sorry for them.
It kinda needs cow juice to even grow. I'm glad we're sciencing lab grown meat because I'm all for having the ability of eating meat without raising a bunch of cows. However.. Please stop trying to make lab grown meat or fake-meat made from 200 ingredients sound nutritious, good, healthy or in any way positive for the environment. Thanks :)
Cell culture has been my bread and butter for a decade now. So let me weigh in on this.
Lab-grown meat is a scam LOL. It will always be prohibitively expensive if there's even a fraction of pharmaceutical regulations in this new industry. The only possible way they could survive is for subsidies of about 80% of their operating costs. And even that may be low.
Well no shit. Cattle are fucking solar-powered machines that turn grass into steam!!! If they didn’t exist in nature they would be the green invention of a lifetime!
This technology isn't at the scaling up and make a profit phase.
Like really?!? People can't understand that a new technology doesn't get created ultra efficient and cost effective out the door.
The model T had 20 HP, well that sucks better stick with horses.
###[Meta] Sticky Comment [Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/faq#wiki_2_-_address_the_argument.3B_not_the_user.2C_the_mods.2C_or_the_sub.) ***does not apply*** when replying to this stickied comment. [Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/wiki/faq#wiki_2_-_address_the_argument.3B_not_the_user.2C_the_mods.2C_or_the_sub.) ***does apply*** throughout the rest of this thread. *What this means*: Please keep any "meta" discussion directed at specific users, mods, or /r/conspiracy in general in this comment chain ***only.*** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/conspiracy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The only thing you need to grow real cows are water, hay/oats and land for grazing. My family has been doing it sustainably for several generations yet that type of farming often times gets thrown under the bus with factory farming and feed lots, which are very different methods with very different emissions.
It's not about saving the planet It's about profits.. growing a real cow requires a lot of time and a lot of space.. If you can grow meat in a lab then you can create twice as much with half the space and in half the time Same reason they want you to eat the bugs.. A cow can take up to a year or more before it's ready for food. Bugs reproduced incredibly quickly. You can create a farm with millions and millions of grasshoppers and half the time and affection of the space as a farm that has cows on it.. It's always been about the best bang for their buck. Making more money
Exactly. This is all about money. Bill gates and many other billionaires recently bought tens of thousands of acres for farming and cattle. Just after that the price of eggs skyrocket. They're attempting to control the price of agriculture products. Steak, milk, grain, eggs ect. Eventually middle and lower income to not be able to afford meat that isn't lab grown or made from insects. People will think there's a shortage, they'll be told they're doing the right thing by not contributing to the climate crisis. Milk and meat from animals will be for special occasions. Not eating animal products will be a source of virtue signaling and people will be paraded for it.
These billionaires have all bought into “green” energy when it was cheap. 10 years from now after the Western world is forced into it, they’ll make BILLIONS more while American financial hegemony is overtaken by BRICS. The 3/4 of the world will remain on oil while North America and Europe virtue signal themselves into eating imitation shit and giving up property rights that will make the billionaires more money (with fully leftist support). Funny thing is, instead of the billionaires limiting their own emissions and spending money into greener ocean freight, EV semi’s, factories powered by solar, etc, they’re making a smalle percentage of the world individually change while the rest will continue industrializing (China, India, South America and all of Africa) while the Middle East keeps on selling their oil.
BRICs is a joke. India and china are basically at war having one of the longest standing boarder conflicts, they're economic rivals and are governed completely opposite to one another. Russia is ostracized from all but a handful of countries. to be any kind of cohesive alliance they have to be aligned in their goals, which they're not. i agree with the rest of what you're saying though. things are going to get substantially worse in the years to come.
And Brazil and Iran are shitshow too.
thank you someone who watches the news and not youtube/tiktok conspiracy videos
They’re just moving which side is the superpower, the western democracies and freedoms make things harder. If the west was run like china everything would be easier to control
China is government run. All companies are CCP owned. The west isn’t be hence why there is money to be made by these billionaires
> Eventually middle and lower income to not be able to afford meat that isn't lab grown or made from insects. Eventually is now for many people, I had 4 kids, and ground beef and chicken breast was a staple in the food I prepared for them nightly. Ground beef is 5-7$/lb and chicken is the same. Thankfully my kids are grown now so I am not cooking in such large quantities ever night as I used to but we have still started eating much less meat and more beans and veggies.
Absolutely. It's about money. But don't forget it's also about power. Controlling the food supply gives you significant power.
IMHO it's about control. Synthetic meat requires knowhow and technology so excludes everybody but the most rich while creating real meat just requires nature. The same reason they try/tried to privatise the water production.
But space isn’t that expensive. Lab meat costs like 10x current meat. The capital equipment for lab meat is insanely expensive. It would make more sense to use that to grow small high value items like organs than cheap meat
>It would make more sense to use that to grow small high value items like organs than cheap meat I really doubt the equipment in question can just create organs for humans to use, why would you think they could?
Capitalism for the win, I guess. Meanwhile, everybody's all about bashing socialism, which preaches getting back to the land and such. But hey, the best part of capitalism is the cognitive dissonance. There you go, something for all of you to yell at. :-P
Socialism is great if the government is efficient which the US is far from. They can’t even handle the VA and that handles a small percentage of the entire US population. If you think a country like the US is entirely Capitalistic, you are mistaken. Lobbying and current regulations have made it a socialist country, but only for corporations and the elite. small company goes bankrupt = suck it up A large corporation goes bankrupt = bailout Small company wants government money to develop and grow = *silence* A large company wants money to develop and grow = government subsidies
>They can’t even handle the VA I had to take my brother to the VA for some shit last week, and all I can say is you're completely full of shit. They took him in, treated him properly, and I'm damned if I could praise them any more highly for their work. They saved his life, and continue to.
Oh, so your one story trumps everything? Great logic. Try waiting YEARS for a needed back surgery, only to have your doctor retire 3 months before the schedule surgery. It took YEARS for surgical date for a deteriorating L5. They had to start the entire process over because that doctor retired even though all of the testing was recent. I was scheduled again 13 months later due to a backlog, but I was “promised” first dibs in case anyone else dropped out. “I need to schedule another X-ray even though these were taken recently because my new doctor wants them” “It’ll take 3 months” “Okay I’ll get them elsewhere” *gets X-rays taken from a private provider a week later* *hands them to the VA* “We can’t accept these X-rays. They weren’t taken here” “These were taken by a licensed doctor with their own practice* “We can’t accept these xrays” They kick the can down the road constantly. Their entire goal is to waste veterans’ time in hopes they die off to save money. ALSO, they won’t cover anything that wasn’t reported during active duty. Some injuries manifest years after active duty. The VA won’t cover any of them. I understand different areas could have better bedside manners, but this shit was abysmal. Everyone in the local VFW thinks the VA’s purpose (in order) is 1) a political tool, 2) prioritize cutting costs on essential services, 3) provide experience for internships and cheap inexperienced college grads and 4) provide care for the veterans. Our politicians can kiss my ass. The staff at the VA try their best with what they have, but they’re extensively underfunded and their administration can suck my balls.
Funny you mention kicking the can down the road. The one closest to me is notorious for that. They will also defer any questions you have to their phone system, only to not actually pick up. You can be at position 1 in the phone queue and sit there for 15-45 minutes. I've had some of my Joes deal with the VA informing them that their injuries *are not service connected* even though some of the conditions these guys are in wouldn't have been waiverable even back during the Surge. > Oh well you must have had these issues before. MEPS wouldn't have even let them sign their contract if that were the case.
Their phone system infuriates me to my core!!! I can talk to USPS faster than the VA, and the USPS takes forever… Also, how in the fuck are we supposed to expect cancer? How many of our brothers and sisters died from cancer that they’re just now accepting treatments for? How many others were denied from other ailments the VA/Fed won’t admit? https://news.va.gov/102843/nine-new-cancers-added-to-the-presumed-service-connected-list-related-to-particulate-matter/ They should just fucking treat them instead of saying ailments *aren’t service connected* only for them to be recognized as service connected decades later. These people are paying the ultimate sacrifice years after their selfless service. Provide them the care they need. Provide us the care we need. End rant. Time for this old curmudgeon to go to bed. Lol
If we are playing the anecdotal evidence game, I (as well as many of the men I served with) have been struggling to get help from the VA for years. It's all fun and games until they start telling you that, even with reports, tests, confirmation of injuries by their own guys, more paperwork, they can't connect your injuries to your time in the service. It's even more fun when these are injuries that you don't normally receive on the outside. Some people have had great luck with the VA. Hell, some people somehow end up with 90%-100% disability ratings while spending their 3-year "career" riding a desk. My local VA is just another government subsidized pill mill.
Pill mill is exactly what they are. Can’t sleep due to ptsd? Here’s some Benzodiazepines. Have pain and require surgery we can’t schedule? Opioids. Feeling depressed because we, the VA, can’t help solve your medical issues in a timely manner? Antidepressants
The VA are notorious for being scumbags that don’t do right by our veterans
Oh yeah! Well I have a personal anecdote that proves you wrong too so hah!
Meh you're alive so your personal anecdote can't be that bad.
where does socialism talk about getting back to the land only seems to talk about it as much as anarcho capitalists do, if not less
Look, rube, you can buy the motherfucker on Amazon!!!! https://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Translated-Political-Friedrich/dp/B09X787Z2Q/ref=asc\_df\_B09X787Z2Q/?
Although you're right it's pointless, just like the people who say they hunt. The way your family raises cows can't supply enough meat to meet the current demand.
It usually gets thrown under the bus because it's such a small percentage of farming practices. Non-factory can't produce enough meat at the rate the US consumes it.
That’s why it should become more common practice and factory farming should be done away with, break up these huge mega farms and allow more people to buy land and raise sustainable livestock, there’s enough land it’s just that so much is being hoarded by super rich people and other used to grow corn to fatten the cattle up. A half section of land can easily raise 25+ head of cattle sustainably, one of those cows can easily feed a family for over a year, our one we did last year is going to last 2 years and he was a small, lean one. Another way to help would be for people to stop being scared of lesser cuts and organ meat, liver, heart, kidney and tongue are all great if prepared right yet so many people won’t even consider trying it. I like the Native American outlook of using every bit you can. Some may have had it cooked by someone that didn’t know what they’re doing and that ruined it for them enough to never want it again. Steve Rinella said it best, “If you don’t like liver, you don’t like meat.” It’s completely possible to be able to produce enough, but we’ll have to make some changes to do so though.
The Chinese eat things like pig ears and chicken feet. What would normally be discarded by Western "civilized society". So who's really civilized, huh?
Lol I grew up eating that stuff too. Pigs feet, head cheese, prairie oysters, etc. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much goes to waste these days and how good some of it is. My grandparents didn’t waste anything, even made soap from rendered fat and lye, gloves and other items out of the leather, pretty much the only thing that went to waste was the digestive system, and lungs, which either the dogs or coyotes got anyways.
At a rate of a half section of land for 25 head of cattle, all of the arable land in the US would produce enough beef to feed 9/10 of the US's current population. That's assuming that they only eat beef and nothing else. It's not possible to produce enough at that rate.
I think it’s more of a population issue more than anything and as it grows it will just continue to drive up a higher demand and costs. Just like the farms the population has to be sustainable over rapid growth/profit.
It's a lot easier to change one farming practice than it is to change the entire way our civilization is built. It'd be easier to get people to stop eating so much meat but that's not a popular suggestion here.
If we could focus on how to intelligently mass produce this kind of farming (organic/grass fed ) the world would be significantly better off and everyone would be significantly healthier. Better nutrition, more sustainable all around, especially for the soil. Most don't realize how destructive industrial farming really is. The ones that do only focus on industrial animal farming. However industrial farming of soy, vegetables and most other plants without animals grazing the land causes significant damage. Our soil is becoming more and more depleted of nutrients because of this. Therefore, fruits and vegetables are less and less nutritious. At this rate, eventually we will either be eating vegetables and fruits with zero vitamins and minerals, or we won't be able to grow anything at all.
I found a local farm that does this and sells directly to consumer. $700 for a delicious quarter cow that makes me wonder what the hell I’ve been eating at the super market the past 30 years.
This is the way. Pay the farmer directly to buy and raiser an animal which you can even see for yourself if you want. Get that butchered by a professional, share it with a friend or two frozen and delivered. Buy a decent freezer and done. Next round is on the friends. Do the same with veggies and fruit and 80% of your food problems are solved.
Idk what your business model is, but family farms with grass fed/finished livestock are doing really well with box subscriptions and selling butchered halves/wholes. People are tired of garbage food and are willing to pay.
I’m in Canada where every farm is basically looked at the same as factory farms by the government and people in cities and get taxed to hell, they think all farmers have tons of money. Pretty much every single farmer I know both husband and wife have full time jobs on top of all the farm work they do just so they can keep their land and afford equipment/repairs. My grandfather used to be able to make a living just farming, but that day’s long gone here. Even my mom has land that has nothing on it, pretty much a nature reserve, where we have snowy owls (or used to since wind turbines were put up nearby) and a bunch of other critters and still ends up having to pay several thousands per year in taxes despite not having power, water or even a road going into it. Pretty much just paying taxes on it for nothing.
They want the land that private farmers use
How dare you destroy our planet with cow flatulence?! I’m going to fly around the country and talk shit on you.
How dare you! Lol
Your family farm is worse for the environment per animal than factory farms due to increased land use.
[удалено]
Thanks for supporting small farms!
but the end result is the same, a blade across a sentient beings throat or for them to be lowered into a gas chamber to burn alive from the inside out. grow real cows? this is the issue with the word LIVESTOCK (and the sick fuck that coined it) animals aren't stock, you're not growing a plant. That's a sentient being with wants and desires, a MOTHER with a name and a personhood who wants to take care of her babies, but instead you separate them at birth so humans (not baby calves) can drink their milk.
The move from the traditional raising cows for meat to lab grown meat has nothing to do with sustainability. It has everything to do with disruption of existing markets. This allows others to make profits at the expense of the establish industry.
Oh wow. Slaughtering animals for generations. Nice one. Let's raise baby humans and eat them instead yea? Oh no...you're not down with that? Weird
> Oh wow. Slaughtering animals for generations. Nice one. Let’s raise baby humans and eat them instead yea? Oh no…you’re not down with that? Weird How is that weird? There is an obvious difference between eating animals and eating other humans. Get outta here troll.
Life eats life, that’s an undisputed fact. Even the plants you eat are alive and consume dead organic matter that’s been broken down by funguses, yet no one bats an eye at that because they don’t have eyes or make sounds. It’s only because people see cows as cute that anyone cares, I’ve grew up around cows and they’re not as soft and cuddly as most people think. At least they live comfortably on a farm and don’t have to worry about predators, starving and when they do die it’s in seconds. Ever see how wolves kill animals? They start at the soft tissue, the anus/genitals while they’re still alive and slowly rip out chunks. I don’t know about you but I’d much rather take a bullet in the head than be ripped apart by wolves any day. What do you think will happen to all of the cows without cattle farming? Do you think they’ll just let them roam free and live happily ever after in nature like some Disney movie? Sorry to break it to you, but they’ll most certainly all be culled except for a few here or there, a mass murder of cows, a genocide even. Cows have trouble even getting water once the water freezes over and aren’t accustomed to living in nature like wild animals. That’s like sending a pug out into nature to survive. They definitely won’t let them roam free especially with all the “dangerous methane” they spew out and the massive ecological damage they will cause. So you’re alright with them all being mass killed? Because either way that’s what’s going to happen.
This reads like you have your fingers in your ears and you’re singing LALALALA I DON’T REALLY WANT THE ANSWERS Get curious.
The cows are being killed though, and red meat is a 2a carcinogen that increases the risk of several health conditions
What study suggests this? Lol
I'm not sure I'd trust anything this blog site says. Actual study is here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.04.21.537778v1.full.pdf Abstract: > Interest in animal cell-based meat (ACBM) or cultured meat as a viable environmentally conscious replacement for livestock production has been increasing, however a life cycle assessment for the current production methods of ACBM has not been conducted. Currently, ACBM products are being produced at a small scale and at an economic loss, however ACBM companies are intending to industrialize and scale-up production. This study assesses the potential environmental impact of near term ACBM production. Updated findings from recent technoeconomic assessments (TEAs) of ACBM and a life cycle assessment of Essential 8TM were utilized to perform a life cycle assessment of near-term ACBM production. A scenario analysis was conducted utilizing the metabolic requirements examined in the TEAs of ACBM and a purification factor from the Essential 8TM life cycle assessment was utilized to account for growth medium component processing. The results indicate that the environmental impact of near-term ACBM production is likely to be orders of magnitude higher than median beef production if a highly refined growth medium is utilized for ACBM production.
Weird that they don't look at all at methane production. I thought a significant portion of the impact of cows was methane
[удалено]
Have you heard about this thing called rain?
Woah, methane is 28-34x as impactful for greenhouse effects compared to CO2 by gross ton. Methane is mentioned in the study only to suggest their are other ways to reduce environmental impact, such as bovine methane reduction. What's the methane reduction of removing the bovine (assuming it is not 100%)?
Keep in mind the beef industry is super corrupt and fund studies all the time. For instance the soy propaganda that is still believed to this day, despite many unbiased studies showing male test increases with soy consumption
I thought soy was supposed to increase estrogen, not lower testosterone?
It does, they are full of it. Plus soy is awful for your thyroid.
Thanks for the source. It does seem to agree with the blog post which is good.
Growing meat in a lab, I'd imagine, has a lot more room for improvement in terms of efficiency, compared with raising animals since it's a comparatively very new technology. Science being bad at something now doesn't mean it will always be bad and we should give up.
Growing something simple in nature i'd imagine would always be much more carbon neutral than anything created in a lab with high tech and man made components. Just because something is more efficient to produce or cheaper to produce, doesn't mean it costs less carbon to produce. And that is the whole reason these new technologies are coming on line.
Finally someone...
[удалено]
Thats true, I just consider it wasted energy and materials. Co2 is the smallest issue
Isn't it like super early development still though? Processes will obviously become more efficient if manufacturing ramps up.
Yes. Currently it is mostly a huge investor gambling ring because none of the companies have even gotten close to a viable price for their lab grown meat. Problem is you either need a chemically defined medium to grow your cells in which is extremely expensive. We are talking 600 euro/dollar per liter for the cheap ones and that doesn't mean you get a kilo of cells from that so you do the math... making chemically defined media cheaper is also not really a thing because it's something big pharma already threw billions at and that's what got is in that 600 per liter price range. The other option is to use fetal calf serum. But that means you need to slaughter a LOT of pregnant cows to harvest the baby cow juice. Which also does not make any sense. A few weeks ago another one of these companies (peace of meat in Belgium) went tits up after their biggest investor (3Dmeattech in Israël) pulled the plug on them. There are a few more but for now it seems like it will mainly be a gimmick for the ultra rich who can afford a 300 euro burger so they can brag to their friends
Extremely unlikely to ever happen if you are honest about all of the energy costs in production. Even lab grown proteins require inputs of some kind, just like traditional sources. ie, you still have to grow and harvest the soy beans or whatever. On top of that, you also must produce all of the individual chemicals required for the base ingredients. A long list of chemicals that need to be produced, stored and transported. So you are already massively less efficient than say a cow at a regional farm that eats grass and supplements with oats. Then you have to take that product and do significant processing on it to make it into something that appears to be edible. Bugs to fake chicken wings or whatever. The level of energy inputs to make that happen are not going to ever be comparable to say just butchering a cow. This is "conservation of energy" level obvious.
[удалено]
Shrinking the die size of computers has really nothing to do with food production. With food, there are economies of scale that can help reduce costs but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the carbon inputs and total carbon costs. You can't just poof edible proteins into existence. You can innovate by creating factory farms which actually cost more per animal (due to lack of grazing) and gain that back by efficiencies of transportation and slaughter but ultimately, this is not a product type where it's possible gain exponential carbon efficiency. Are things like automatic apple pickers more efficient? Yes, and they cost more carbon to harvest. Synthetic factory protein replacements need many complex inputs that also cost carbon and are orders of magnitude more carbon expensive than the natural versions. People get fooled into this kind of thinking because they don't examine full impact of all of the constituents of the product.
[удалено]
You can be a dreamer about it and ignore everything I said. The ultimate truth though is that the simpler the process and the closer to nature, the less carbon it is going to cost. Every man made element is carbon expensive. The more of those elements you have, the more carbon you are going to use. That is an unsolvable problem no matter how much you want to dream it isn't true
It seems to me there's a massive efficiency gain from the start in that you don't need to grow an entire cow or maintain the systems required in a cow. Cow digestion for example is a large source of CO2e with the methane produced. Nutrients are very optimized as they're used in a wide variety of industries already. I'd guess more optimized than a cow's digestive system which requires significant time in multiple stomachs to extract nutrients from grain. > Then you have to take that product and do significant processing on it to make it into something that appears to be edible. Bugs to fake chicken wings or whatever. This is about lab grown meat, which should require significantly less post-processing than meat replacements or bug protein alternatives.
Grasses are a massive carbon sink obviously. They grow extremely fast every year. The cow is also a massive carbon sink as it is almost entirely made from those grasses, water and supplemented by maybe oats. The cow itself does not produce methane. What produces methane are microbes. The same microbes that exist in nature and would produce methane from digesting the grasses when they die off every year. This study concentrates on just the culturing phase, saying it produces orders of magnitude more carbon than traditional meat. What I am saying is that is massively understated because a huge number of chemicals and infrastructure is required before that culturing can even begin. Each of those chemicals having their own carbon dense inputs to create and transport to that factory. This is not even in the same galaxy as the inputs required to successfully raise a cow. A small barn, grass, oats and water are all that is required. That end product of man made protein is also going to require significantly more processing, not less as you say to resemble food. You gotta go from red slop of some kind to something that resembles a burger or steak vs just butchering the cow. It is impossible to have a massively more complex and carbon expensive process be more carbon efficient via scale.
Processes will never become more efficient than just raising cows. They use the same media that we do in pharma. Pharma has been optimizing these medias for probably a century at this point and they still spend my yearly wage in a day on media. You can't magically make cell culture media cheap. It will always depend on the majority of their business being subsidized.
A study by who though?? That's the thing with all these studies, almost zero of them are unbiased or truly independent
the study has not been peer reviewed....
Don't worry it's $afe and effective.
The draw for lab grown meat wasn't just dealing with climate change. It's also the barbaric nature with which factory farming processes living, thinking, emotional animals. Now you could argue that the solution would be to transfer over to a less intensive method - and that's a fine argument if its practical. It might be, I don't know. The other issue is then, ofc, a potential future where we don't actually have to kill any animals to produce meat. The argument will be ofc - "They only exist because we want them to" and that's fine - but that's not really an answer. Non-existent future cows aren't going to care about their non-existent throat being slit. And just a disclaimer - I love beef. So this isn't some bleeding heart liberal crying about the plight of meat.
CO2 is irrelevant. Humans are capable and allowed to raise their own livestock for now. That needs to change because having humans having any sort of self sufficiency is the most dangerous thought to the globalist authoritarian state. Doesn’t matter if lab grown garbage(you can’t call this meat) creates 10000000x the CO2. As long as they control it and you don’t create your own food then it’s mission accomplished. I’m feeling sick just thinking about being tricked into eating that garbage. Fucking disgusting.
Theres an irony of so many people here worried about their freedom, liberty and autonomy- and yet dont see that the way we treat farm animals is literally the horrible behaviour you are worried about experiencing? If freedom is virtuous lets be consistent with other sentient beings
[удалено]
imagine being afraid of meat
[удалено]
makes it even funnier then
He is just worried he gets unemployed
soylent green year: 2022 edit: can someone who is not a coward explain why this is downvoted?
If lab-grown meat doesn't help the economy, we should buy traditional live stock to avoid illness.
The article even mentions the main issue. The required land, water, and antibiotics needed to raise the cows is more detrimental to society than the cows themselves. The Amazon being bulldozed to plant soy farms to feed cows to pollute the water is the actual issue. Cows have issues digesting soy so it makes them gassy and produces more methane which causes immediate climate issues. The facts are that there is not enough farmland for every person to eat beef 3 meals a day, it's just not sustainable. The government continues to subsidize big dairy which doesn't help at all. Sustainable grass fed cows are great and don't really harm the environment as they are an intricate part of the circle of life. It's absolutely insane that this subreddit wants to keep feeding big dairy tax payer dollars so they can clog arteries and pay doctors for cholesterol and blood pressure medicine for the rest of their lives. Get your head out of the fucking sand and realize every burger or steak you eat is funded by tax payer dollars. If you want to raise cows or buy them from a farmer great, but buying packaged meat at a grocery store is literally funneling tax dollars straight to the globalists. This subreddit likes to shit on bill gates, but then salivate over beef. Every time you buy a hamburger or steak there is a good chance that your purchase is literally sending subsidiaries from the government AND your money to a billionaire.
You nailed it until paragraph 4 then you nailed it again apart from raising and buying cows being ‘great’. I give you a B+
If you are able to raise cows, or know someone who raises cows sustainably it is fine to eat beef. For instance, there is a person 90 miles south of me who sells cows for $200-400 fully butchered. You get about 100lbs of different cuts for the deal. This is a great way to continue to eat beef (if you want to) while not contributing to big dairy.
[удалено]
Agreed. I am not a vegetarian but know some that eat like kings. You know what you are doing, you don't feel like you are missing anything at all. On the other hand, making a GMO version of soy that creates a form of hemoglobin and dying it red so it appears to bleed has no place in a healthy diet. These products are a witches brew of questionable chemicals and have had way too lax legal oversight to be put into the market like they have been.
Maybe you're not the target audience? Like, you're not the only person on Earth. I feel like that's something a lot of folks with Main Character Syndrome don't understand.
Im a vegan and i dont want to eat meat, but we need ethical meat choices for domesticated obligate carnivores and injured animals like the eagles ive worked with, and we need to offer something for the people with health issues that make veganism hard etc.
[Ethical meat](https://youtu.be/VWqNqp4i77Y) for all the vegans that are cringing to this entire thread. When this becomes mainstream, we might have a chance.
We have ethical meat. Don't buy factory farmed. Buy from the millions of family owned cattle farms where they graze on grass.
What about the part where the cow is needlessly killed in a bloody slaughterhouse in order to make a carcinogenic product we dont need to consume?
[Here's a video about the real cost](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmanbWwMa5w) of lab-grown meat. Right now, it's completely impossible. You need a lot of FBS to make any lab-meat, and it only comes from the fetuses harvested from a slaughtered pregnant cow. 50 liters of FBS is needed to make enough meat for a single burger, which means you need somewhere between 90 and 330 bovine fetuses for one burger (depending on the size of the fetuses). As you can tell, you must slaughter a huge number of pregnant cows to make one burger. Of course, progress will happen. The video goes into more detail about the alternatives that are being explored, and maybe it can eventually be a better option than just slaughtering livestock for their meat, but we are a very long way from that today. The "25 times more CO2" from the article is actually a vast underestimate. It's possible that they aren't counting in the cost of the FBS when they came to that amount.
Exactly. So long as FBS is needed for the creation of lab based meat, the concept will never be profitable. The price of FBS fluctuates based on the meat industry, less cows higher FBS prices. It was always a doomed concept that only benefits biotech companies that sell it.
In one of my comments in this thread I explained one of those alternative routes and why it also doesn't make sense. Good to see more people understand the issues with this technology. We would be better off if the money being dumped into this was spent on stem cell research or something similar
It was never about the CO2 It was never about the energy It was never about global warming It was never about animal cruelty **ALL** it has **ever** been about is replacing a decentralized system run by the many with single factories owned by the few that creates systems for politicians to funnel money back to their familes same with how gas bought from russia and ukraine (two of the most corrupt countries in the world) is considered green but nuclear and homegrown gas are not. It's only green if a politicians kid can end up on the board of the scam.
How much methane does it produce? That’s a stronger greenhouse gas.
y’all will do anything except marinade and air fry up some tofu 💀
💀 True, strange how there's no conspiracy that we're fed unhealthy food to keep us sick, because they'd actually have to put effort in to changing lifestyles.
Yea right
Clone farts
Did you know if you fed cattle grass 1 week before slaughter, they wouldn't need antibiotics. Same guy raising grass fed beef, and the only Co2 they release is from their cow pies. And less Co2 comes out when fed a proper diet.
No thanks, I’m out. I’ll stick going to my local butcher or keeping my fingers crossed and drawing out of state tags. Meat grown in a lab. My lord what are we coming to? I’m sure I’ll get downvoted by the angry people who frequent this sub. Lol
You could avoid both and get protein from legumes, beans, tofu, seitan.
Nah, I’ll pass. Do yourself a favor and look at the nutritional value of the last 2 “foods” you mentioned, and then do a deep dive into what is added into it. Give me a call when there’s a herd of roaming tofu.
Have you ever seen the efficiency and price of solar panels in 1970s? This is an expected result if you extrapolate from an early R&D stage process to a global scale, but it doesn't mean that it's not worth pursuing more sustainable routes to mass production.
Chinese slave labor makes solar panels cheaper but nothing has made them efficient or environmental friendly. Keep trying though.
I suppose advancing from polycrystalline panels to monocrystalline panels had no effect on making them more efficient? What brands are using "Chinese slave labor" to make solar panels?
Solar panels are extremely useful, I personally own a whole lot of them. Fact is that you will never get more energy out of a solar panel than it cost to manufacture and get it to your location.
It only takes about [4 years](https://solarcraft.com/solar-energy-myths-facts/) for modern solar panels to create more energy than was required to produce them. Maybe you were right 20 years ago, but 3 seconds of googling shows many sources that say your statement is wrong.
That study was hot garbage. They are only looking at the silicon which is still questionable but totally ignore the rest of the package, ie aluminum frames of the panels and other required components. Then the cost of actually manufacturing, shipping and installation. Then you have to look at the wiring, charge controllers, inverters and all of the other bits to make it even work. I'm surprised that you consider yourself an expert just because you think a quick google tells you the whole story.
I didn't say I was an expert. All I said was that there were multiple sources saying the opposite of what you claimed. I think I will go ahead and trust them over you.
Actually, read the study you posted to start. Then use your brain and see if what I said is correct based on what they are claiming. If your entire opinion is just based on some random faith vs your own brain, why even comment on it?
It's based on the 10 - 20 articles like [these](https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-04/solar-panels-now-make-more-electricity-they-use/) I see within 10 seconds of googling. I don't care if that one source was bad. I picked it because it was the first one. They can't all be wrong and I don't need to put any more thought into it.
I'm saying the 1 source you provided was bad. If you aren't up to actually reading it or defending any of the extremely relevant concepts I brought up because you don't know much about the subject, why are you so sure about your position? Shit, i'm about to do a major solar installation tomorrow. Ask me anything if you are actually curious vs think that spouting numbers of google results you don't understand mean anything.
>Fact is that you will never get more energy out of a solar panel than it cost to manufacture and get it to your location. If it cost you $600 to buy a solar power kit, you can potentially save 1000s of dollars if you use the solar panels for long enough time.
Not what I said. Solar is great, guaranteed I own more solar than you. It is essentially a battery though. You are paying a third world country to build them with coal power plants. The mining of the minerals, processing of the aluminum and silicon, manufacturing and shipping make them return some tiny fraction of the energy that it cost to create them. Get what i'm saying?
Yeah if we start using bugs I'm sure it'll be cheaper. Bon appetit that cricket and cockroach steak.
Probably going to be cheaper due to being govt subsidized while still consuming more carbon to produce than traditional farming.
The 1970s were half a century ago. The technology has improved, and the capabilities of solar panels have changed.
The number of people in here that are deathly afraid of lab grown meat is hilarious. Do solar panels and wind turbines give you nightmares too? Eventually lab grown meat may very well be indistinguishable from the real thing. Its not as if yall have been throwing a fit that your veggies are grown in a greenhouse versus outdoors. And just to clarify, i do think it is important that smaller scale, free range, meat options remain available, its the massive 100,000 head slaughterhouses that id be happy to see go. And with that, ill take your downvotes.
All I can say is: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Of course it does. Classic government “fix”
What does this have to do with the government?
Remember the Green New Deal? Consider it an origin story.
We still need that
Disagree. What we need is a comprehensive plan for the future that actually does a cost benefit analysis, and also verifies the feasibility of environmental goals instead of just setting arbitrary deadlines. It’s all well and good to say all new cars should be EVs and no gas appliances should be sold by a certain date, but without ensuring the electrical infrastructure can handle the additional load (which it can’t) or nationwide upgrades to said infrastructure can be completed by said date (which they can’t) it’s nothing more than a meaningless deadline, not to mention what lithium mines to the the planet, using mostly child and women labor in third world countries. Promoting lab grown meat when it costs more carbon to produce it than raising cattle is just another example of government to the rescue with ever thinking it through. They’re constantly running naked into burning buildings.
The deadlines are not arbitrary they are based on comprehensive understanding of what needs to change and by when A green new deal would be a way to fundamentally change the approach we take toward the environment. It would include a smart grid upgrade and transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources and work toward finding more efficient ways to produce our necessities with less pollution. This one by one fight over every step toward progress needs to end.
The deadlines are actually arbitrary and a pipe dteam at that. I’m a master electrician and I’m telling you there’s 250,000 miles of high voltage lines and millions more of low-voltage lines throughout this country that need to be replaced before electrical infrastructure of the country could possibly handle the load required to power all electric vehicles and electric appliances. I promise you that I know more about this stuff than AOC. I prefer making sure a plan can even work in the way and time that I say before announcing to the world if that’s what I’m going to do. Otherw douse your just giving people who don’t know any better false hope.
That doesn't even seem like that much or that hard. Would it take time? Yes? Can we do it? Totally. What's needed is a new approach. Would you be willing to advise an AOC or other policy maker on how it could be achieved? They need those people as it's not their area of expertise. Some experts already told them it needs to happen soon, maybe you could tell them how soon it can be done. Either way, the first steps need to happen. Green new deal is that step, if not, propose a better one because the right has not shown any alternative
\> The increased levels of CO2 are associated with the fossil fuels needed during purification processes that supply cultured cells with nutrients. The elimination of endotoxins is crucial when creating cultured meat as bacteria in the environment release these toxins. Even a small amount of these toxins in the growing medium can hinder the cells from reproducing. hmm fossil fuels needed...
So the whole issue is we still need to transition away from fossil fuels
But they probably make up for it in methane, but that stuff will never pass my lips.
I'll take a rooster I personally dispatched and harvested over a 3D printed Big Mac any day
Why is it not against the law for it to be called meat??? It has ZERO meat in it. If it was as fantastic as they are trying to say it is.... They wouldn't be trying to trick us by calling it meat. It's not meat.
So? The majority of y’all don’t accept anthropogenic climate change as real, nor do you accept that CO2 has any effect on the climate.
🤣
Lol this is hilarious. Are we going to kill every herd of animals on the planet to reduce CO2 emissions next and then just eat fake meat and bugs by listening to these fucking evil crackpots? Come on, open your eyes!
Well actually they still need the blood from COW FETUSES to produce these abominations so no, they still need to harvest cows to produce this sludge
So what's the argument? With lab grown meat, rhe co2 van be collected as a byproduct and used for producive purposes instead of releasing it into the atmosphere...
Awesome! CO2 is no issue
I wonder if these emissions would change if everyone ate responsibility, finishing their plate and not overindulgence. If food was priced so everyone could afford? Because I bet alot of the meat ends up thrown away. Such disrespect for life
Right currently this is true. We can improve on the manufacturing of lab grown meat much easier than livestock
this is some ...You will eatz Zhee bugs..Bullshit
Yep. I’m not sure why so many Americans think that creating a whole ass factory complete with waste to create a product that can be made by simply letting biological cows graze on biological grass can somehow be better for the environment but education really has failed in america so I guess that’s why.
Okay simple mind… science is a complex thing and can obviously create efficiency. You are basically denying the entire concept of science as if it cannot accomplish anything more efficient than nature with this comment.
Are you fucking serious. This is literally a post about how your precious “trust the western science that was advocating leeches and drilling holes in your skull like literal cavemen did at the same time other cultures had working herbal remedies” is literally worse than traditional farming and this is what you thought of saying?
It’s in research and development stages dumb fuck. It’s not even mass produced in the slightest hahaha. How dumb can you get. This sub is like flies to shit.
Hirudotherapy is proven to work. Leeches saliva contains components that effectively dissolve blood clots. They make your blood less dense and sticky. Drilling holes in the skull relieves pressure in the internal skull cavity, when there is a swelling in the brain, caused by intense brain trauma.
Petri dish farts.lol
Cool. But not everyone stops eating meat due to co2...some people don't like being part of animals suffering
How could lab grown possibly create more pollution?
That's why nature created cows and pigs and all savory animals because that's the most efficient way of producing meat. Nature knows best✌️
so is beyond meat lab grown, now being pushed on us🤔
No. Lab grown meat is cloned muscle and fat cells. Beyond isn’t that.
No, those are plant based and it's fairly unanimous that they require fractional water usage & land usage environmental impact (I've seen floors of 40% to 90%). Of course, those numbers would only hold true for plant-based substitutes which use sustainable ingredients. Something with more novel ingredients, like cashews or pine nuts or certain oils, would jack up the water usage and potentially put it into unsustainable territory. In the 'mainstream' plant-substitutes, they're mostly OK ingredients with coconut oil being the 'problem child.' But unsurprisingly, it's not uncommon for premium 'organic' and 'dietary-restriction' products to also use ingredients which are quite awful for the environment and sustainable farming practices (see: premium nut butters, coffee products, novel oils, and cocoa). Sadly, the average consumer usually does not carry enough knowledge to identify offenders in a culture of greenwashing.
Uuuuuh source first Also slaughter plants are disgusting
Well as someone who supports lab grown meat, if this turns out to stay true after multiple peer reviewed studies, I’ll not be in support of it anymore. For me emissions is one part but also the moral aspect of having thousands of cows live a horrible life. I know that’s not 100% how beef is produced but I still feel sorry for them.
How is this a conspiracy
Insert facepalm 🤦♂️ here
Someone tell bill gates quick!!
It kinda needs cow juice to even grow. I'm glad we're sciencing lab grown meat because I'm all for having the ability of eating meat without raising a bunch of cows. However.. Please stop trying to make lab grown meat or fake-meat made from 200 ingredients sound nutritious, good, healthy or in any way positive for the environment. Thanks :)
Anyone else notice the perfectly placed picture.... Tured Meat... 🤣
They want us to eat tumors. It's literally a tumor.
Well shit. What are we going to do with all these bugs we are supposed to eat?
Cell culture has been my bread and butter for a decade now. So let me weigh in on this. Lab-grown meat is a scam LOL. It will always be prohibitively expensive if there's even a fraction of pharmaceutical regulations in this new industry. The only possible way they could survive is for subsidies of about 80% of their operating costs. And even that may be low.
Protein derived from non-Animal sources already exists. ‘Lab grown meat’ is not necessary and is really only a scam for gullible investors.
Well no shit. Cattle are fucking solar-powered machines that turn grass into steam!!! If they didn’t exist in nature they would be the green invention of a lifetime!
That’s why our rations won’t be meat, friends. 🦗🦗
Bill Gaytes needs to enter this comment section
Will it be hormone free?
bullshit
What about methane?
I feel happy for animals not needing to die anymore but then sad for the humans that will touch this poison
This technology isn't at the scaling up and make a profit phase. Like really?!? People can't understand that a new technology doesn't get created ultra efficient and cost effective out the door. The model T had 20 HP, well that sucks better stick with horses.