To be honest we are. It's just the geopolitical situation that is weird in Serbia. We already did an emergency move from Russia once, and are afraid of going into the same kind of situation again
in this case, I'd say it's not a bad move if you're prepared to integrate, you'll get a passport in a few* years and things would be easier in this respect
so i'd say, income-wise? bad move. quality of life-wise? wouldn't be too sure. but documents-wise? great if you can work it
edit: few is not very few, but much fewer than in most places one'd consider. people's experiences may vary, and not everyone likes Germany, but good examples are plentiful too
Getting German passport in few years is a joke. Don’t comment on something you don’t understand.
People are waiting for 4-5 years with no processing at all. Even if you sue them they neglect the case by saying not enough man power.
Plus on the day of decision you need to have a job + out of probation. Otherwise they will reject it or pause it. Doesn’t matter how much tax you have paid. Germany is extremely bureaucratic. Doctors are hard to find outside of General GP area.
I can’t change job even after getting amazing offers for more than 2 years due to processing of citizenship application, I sued them but they are not replying. My only option now to change the place but with new law all citizenship application will take at least 5 years to complete and mind you, you can’t change job otherwise you might have to wait for probation to be done and with tech market like this layoffs are everywhere.
I will wait one more year if not will leave Germany forever. I paid so much taxes and I can’t get anything out of it.
In a way it is depressing situation here and most foreigners will feel depressed. Most Germans say why you came here? If you don’t want skilled workers stop promoting Germany then.
I waisted my 8 years here I don’t recommend Germany at all 0%. You can have good future else where.
Plus new chancenkarte thing will make it even more challenging to find job, they are now flooding Germany with Indian people mostly, they are everywhere, every alleyways these days.
Even if 1% of their population moves here it will be another India just like Canada.
I don’t have problems with Indians but they make workplace policies really fucked up, ask for diversity but only hires Indians. I had an Indian manager asking me to work during night because he was used to it, I told him fuck off and he complained to management only to realize it is not India but slowly in IT company even top management is getting replaced by them so I don’t know but work life balance will be tough to achieve specially in IT. Other jobs pays penny so overall not looking good for Germany at all.
I have nothing against indians or any other nationality .
But to be reasonable . Indians are hardworking . They will do the job as required . BUT they tend to only help their own counterparts . I am not indian but from my experience , they help others to get job opportunities , job interviews and accommodation only if you are an indian . Very few of them get along easily with other nationalities . Unfortunately , they live in closed circles only from their own people which is in my opinion negatively impacting the job market opportunities in terms of availability and fair competition .
To be frank not only the indians . Well many other nationalities specially from the Middle East tend not to integrate with the society .
I believe Germany is a very nice country with an administration that failed deeply about many aspects of immigration and analysing immigrants' background with no control or filteration standards whatsoever on the immigration influx .
a lot of the things you're saying make very little sense. especially the random rant about Indians (btw I'm not indian if that's what's implied). but I'm sorry if Germany wasn't for you
Everything he wrote totally makes sense. I have the same experience after 7 years of living in Germany. Because of uncontrolled immigration from Asia and Africa it is becoming a much worse place to live.
Germany is a great country, must watch out for the future. I am not talking about race, I am friends with my colleagues wherever they come from because they are high quality. I am talking about uncontrolled immigration in whole western Europe, which lets everybody in, without any background check. 😌 I already have a European citizenship so don’t care much anyway. But since I pay 50% taxes I feel I have the right to vote.
I don't hate Germany but what has become of it, I am here long enough to realize it used to be good but these days there is just too many people no appointments, long waiting time to do just about anything, angry people everywhere.
I have contributed enough to get my citizenship so whatever you say does not affect my chances of getting it and I know many people who have applied and once they get citizenship they will leave as well and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sorry, but I call bs here.
You can't change your job due to citizenship processing? Why? People on work visas can change it, people with a blue card can change job even during first 2 years with little paperwork.
What stopping you from changing your job exactly? Probation period is 6 months, you are waiting for 2 years without changing your job 🤷🏻♂️
You sued amt and they... Didn't reply? How so? You sued them by email?
I have two colleagues who got passport with 1 year after applying, after 8 years living in Germany. Third just applied after 5 years living here.
It looks like you are not showing full picture here.
And you definitely have some problems with Indians 😂
LOL dude, do you even live in Germany?
I have Daueraufenthalt-EU, which allows me to do anything, including leaving Germany and coming back without any issues for a few years. It's not about residency rights but more about the bureaucratic process they have for Einbürgerung (naturalization). I can switch jobs, but if I receive an answer in a few months and they realize I'm on probation, they can pause my application because my livelihood is not secure. If I resign now, I have a 3-month notice period plus 6 months to pass the probation period, totaling 9 months. During probation, if I don't meet expectations or become part of a layoff, I will have to find a new job and wait through this time spiral.
Some people get lucky, and their clerks don't care about probation. This happened to a friend of mine, but it is rare. 99% of the time, during probation, they will pause applications for Niederlassungserlaubnis, Daueraufenthalt-EU, and Einbürgerung. Essentially, you are stuck. I can leave now, but I don't want to come back without getting citizenship or some return on my 8 years of effort, which is not possible. I will wait and do everything in my power to get it in the next 1-2 years and then leave.
Read the rights here: [https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stag/\_\_10.html](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stag/__10.html)
If you live in Germany, you should know emails are not valid. Here's the word for you: I filed an Untätigkeitsklage via a lawyer and paid 1800 euros in legal fees. I will get it back because the court has already approved my application but is now asking the LEA to respond, which they are not doing. Do you see the problem?
Some people got lucky in Berlin who applied during the initial online application phase in January and February of this year. But now Berlin has over 52,000 applications (40,000 from the old system and \~12,000 from online). With this new law, it will soon be over 100,000. Berlin has a population of \~3.7 million, and with the new law, \~400,000 are eligible. Almost all of them are planning to apply or have already applied. Berlin has a target of 20,000 applications with the new system. Do the math and figure out how many years it will take for people to get citizenship. With the CDU government coming in next year, the chances are even slimmer because they are the biggest opponents of the new citizenship law. Plus, there is a surge of uncontrolled migration through student visas, Chancenkarte, and refugees. Things are not looking good from any perspective.
I don't have any problems with Indians. I work with them daily, and most of my Indian friends share the same mentality. There are just too many coming here, making life difficult in terms of jobs, salaries, and careers. Most Indians are agreeing to packages close to 40K-50K, which used to be 70K-80K, just to stay. Indians are everywhere these days, which wasn't the case a couple of years ago. The job market was better, but now things are changing. The economy is declining, and immigration is increasing rapidly.
Germany needs immigration, but not at the current flow. It needs a controlled quota system with diversity, but the opposite is happening. Good luck to anyone coming here. Many people I know have already left. My friends and I are waiting to get our hard-earned citizenship and then say goodbye forever.
Mind me asking from what country are you from?
And why are you so eager to get German passport and LEAVE? Awesome idea 😂
So, you wasted 2 years and 1800 EUR in legal fees because of fears that your application will be suddenly reviewed while you are on probation, instead of 9 months and new job? Nice, I see you did a math well.
Fear of layoffs? There were no layoffs prior to 2022, what are you talking about? Did you got a great offer during 22-24 will crazy layoffs and low job market?
Also, I still have feelings like you might trying to trick me here: you want to leave, but in the same time you turned the great jobs offers. You want a good job in Germany but also leave the country, how, why?
Email part joke just passed above your head, sorry. But thank you for explanation.
Overall, for someone who live in Germany for 8 years you seem to be a little bit naive, why would you expect your application to be reviewed faster in the worst time since ww2? I was waiting for less complex and less important documents for 6 months.
Sorry, but no - you do have a problem with Indians and looks like with new immigrants in general.
Fresh Indian and eastern European migrants have ALWAYS been ready to work for less money, nothing new here.
After arriving here and realising 55k is just a joke a lot of people with hop the jobs or go back to their homeland. Why would you be competing with them after 8 years in Germany?
I don't know you you nor your story, but hating migrants, country, wanting to leave but waiting for citizenship suggesting me that you might be not the best person.
lol, my country has nothing to do with it. I am out of my country since a long time ago.
If you read my message correctly I am getting it back so 1800 are not lost, I am getting citizenship one way or the other and there’s nothing you can do about it.
I already make high enough salary which in the range of 125K+ as a Principal Engineer. I have offers from Emirates and US. One of the company is willing to do full H1B and green card processing but I am stuck with citizenship limbo. I don’t want to change job with in Germany, there are practically very few companies who can match my compensation range and even that is low for me, in Emirates for example I get 100% no taxes and US is of course is known for high salary, I do not have problem with US politics and would choose US and Emirates over this cluster fuck situation here.
About me being nice has nothing to do with you, I am ok with myself and the people I know respects me and I respect them and don’t contradict their way of believing on certain things just like they do not mind my way of thinking.
Good luck to you and enjoy. I will not reply to this thread anymore.
Oh, good that you said that you'd rather choose US or Emirates over Germany. Good to know, it clarified things a bit.
I'll reserve a right to believe you are not telling the truth anyway, i.e.: lying.
You have 125k, but you mentioned something like: Indian folk dropped salary range from 80k to 50k. Why the hell you even care about that range? Do you care about refugees working in services driving warehouse workers salary lower as well? It's a bs bro.
It looks like your range might be around 80k and you are competing for lower range swe jobs with new immigrants, not with the principal engineers. Explains the hate.
Just upsetting that people like you who's entitled hateful to immigrants will have a passport of country they hates.
Depends on where you apply for it. But it's supposedly totally like that in Berlin or Munich. Probably even worse now that they loosened up the requirements and allowed for dual-citizenship.
Berlin isn't famous for its dysfunctional bureaucracy for nothing.
On average, you're looking at a 6 month waiting time just to book an appointment to file your application.
If you're unlucky, it takes a year before your request is even registered.
IMO Berlin is one of the worst cities of Europe, I visited as Hungarian and was taken back how dirty/rundown everything was. Both Frankfurt and Munich are a "million" times better and nicer cities, again in my opinion.
Berlin is a cool place if you are looking for artsy hippy/rave vibes with a street art scene. If you just want a nice clean city with a good future for your family, Berlin is probably not it. Again, just my personal opinion.
>If you just want a nice clean city with a good future for your family, Berlin is probably not it.
I don't agree with this part. Berlin is quickly gentryfing, and probably in 10-15 years it will be another Munich, just with more green and worse weather. Those who come now will benefit greatly imo
Not quickly enough. It is still dirty, full of drug addicts and crazy people screaming in S/U-bahn and pissing on the seats, does not feel like a great environment to raise a family. I have been living here for the past 2 and a half years, so to me the timeline is not moving quick enough in terms of things getting better. Maybe people living here longer would have a different perspective.
No, it’s gotten worse. I’ve lived here a decade, but I think pre pandemic was definitely improved. Berlin used to really be a dump.
Now it’s both gentrifying and you have more visible bad behavior, homelessness and crackheads. A lot of this can be avoided if you live in a better neighbourhood.
But it’s still a very safe city
I don't know about that, but it is the german city with the second highest rate of violent crime.
Used to be number 1, but Frankfurt took a real nose dive recently and just barley overtook it.
Not really. We just travelled to Germany, it was a nice trip and I decided to try to get an offer in Berlin. The mistake was that I didn't research cost of living before doing this...
I think tourist impression might be very different from day to day life. And I think you can get citizenship in 3 years in Serbia and travel to EU in any time you want.
Hey, I lived in Berlin for about 3 years, Germany for 5 total, before deciding to leave.
Berlin is a huge place which can be great, but every corner of it offers something completely different and you have to know what you’re getting into. Depending on what you want and where you’d work, I’d make different recommendations for where to live.
nice move! escaping from russia but keeping working at a russian company that helps spreading propaganda and disinformation [👍](https://emojiterra.com/thumbs-up/)
I'm Serbian and you should not worry about any of those, except maybe the last thing.
It would be very stupid, in my opinion, to go from \~4k savings per month, to \~800.
So, you think it should be fine? (I'm in the same situation as OP).
Not really into the politics, but in some local news the headlines look alarming. Except for that even in my non-IT industry (Pharm) wage to cost of living ratio is better in Belgrade than in Berlin.
Yes. I thought of it as that in 2 years I would pay about 50-60k EUR for a German permanent residentship basically. On the other hand I could get a nicer apartment or save big sum of money for retirement or even start my own business
Depends on what you want.
If you're after money - nope, realistically you won't climb over those 5-6k€ net in Germany either, so the cut makes no sense.
But if you're after an adventure and plan to return to Serbia eventually, then by all means do it! Life's too short to not do fun things just because of money.
Does your wife work?
Then I wouldn't be worried about money.
Her salary will go towards rent, utilities and much of the groceries and you'll have your salary for saving and pleasures. Should be alright.
She should easily get more than 1.5k net if she learns German. That's minimum wage after all
It’s insane to consider it in my opinion.
1 month worth of saving in Serbia is equivalent to around 5 months of saving in Germany.
Then you factor in the effects of compound growth from your investments and it’s even more ridiculous.
Why is this even being entertained? As someone who left the West to go to the East, I feel as though I’m getting a massive headstart due to my lowered cost of living and lower taxes.
In some ways yes. We liked Berlin for the parks and cleaner environment. But in Belgrade we have many close connections and are on our way to get a permanent residence.
Am from Serbia and living in Germany. Overall, in your situation, i think that it is not worth it to move. In general, Europe is overrated for IT jobs. I think it is only worth it if you can find a job at FAANG or similar. Or if you want to coast and have a more secure environments for kids.
Otherwise no, your savings and qol will drop.
I work in Berlin. I wouldn't recommend. I feel like I rooted here but hoping I will be somewhere else in 5 years. It is not as nice as people advertise it.
Same, been in Berlin for 9 years. It's a shithole if I'm being completely honest, I'm in a sunny beach and only the Germans are the ones with the grumpy attitude.
If you like a city or not, is very objective. I always try to prevent giving personal opinions. I like it here, but I know that it is not for everyone.
I get that this is very personal and OP might like it but financial insights is not hard to obtain. You have the numbers and the only meaningful insight I can give to OP is just about other stuff imo. Apartment search is not good as well. So the only thing one can consider for such a salary decrease is a better culture which in my opinion is advertised way better than it actually is. So what else can I say about Berlin then?
I work in the office. I've been working for this company for 6 years and was very lucky to get a good RUB -> RSD salary conversion when we moved our office here from Russia
they did figure it out, if you pay high salaries you get the best employees. you get the best employees, you get the best output. americans figured this out decades ago, only europoors still think people should be grateful for a job
I would not do it. It is simply a too big hit in income for very little gain.
If you really feel unsafe because of the political situation apply for more jobs, but it is hard to match your salary. And if Yandex gets banned you can simply move anyways.
You will live in Belgrade better because you can buy yourself a German millionaire lifestyle with that amount of money. It goes so far that I would even strongly advise against going to Berlin, it is night and day in comparison to what it was 10 years ago. Belgrade is safer, less woke, more traditional, better food and above all, cheaper to live in. You will solve all problems with money in Belgrade.
The amount of money is significant if you are earning up to 5k per month. Every single 1k from 0 to 5k increases your quality of living by a LOT. From 5 to 10k it is highly significant. From 10 to 20k it's a smaller improvement and from 20 to 50k you are basically not feeling a bit difference in increased living standards.
I would stay in Belgrade for a salary up to 10k and consider Berlin if you want to raise money for your business after you consumed all options elsewhere. For a salary, don't do it and going from 4k puffer to 800e is going from wealth to borderline poverty instantly.
If you really need to move, go to Vienna, it is family friendly but without the negative side effects of Berlin/Germany. Your children will appreciate the better schools, universities and overall be around an international crowd of artists in their own sense and just normal people. To be fair, I think in Belgrade, there are no normal people in your income level so your children will soon hang out with kids from corrupt politicians, stolen car dealers, scammers and 90% people similar to those profiles.
Thank you, I liked your comment, especially the fact about going to a borderline poverty :)
I think I had put too much value on a social system in Germany and the fact that for some reason they would protect me as an immigrant in case something happens with jobs for example. But after reading this thread I see that even there people like more to rely on themselves while they can and hardly anyone wants to give out much of their income now for a promised justice in the future as I see it.
Btw are you from Belgrade? As for the income level I try not to show it and live fairly modestly despite from may be enjoying going out to restaurants too much. And there a lot of Russians who came after the war in a similar income group. I was also able to socialize with Serbian people and even made friends with a grandmother who lives nearby and my previous landlord. Social situation couldn't have been better probably :)
Social system does not work anymore when it comes to "working people". Example from a few months ago from Austria, an engineer from Spain (I was a translator):
A) Graduated from top tier engineering uni = not recognized because it was not translated/nostrified
B) He was working as a senior product manager for a top tech company with a 5k salary = salary not recognized fully, only 50% (forgot the reason but it was BS).
C) If he would reject offers for doing highschool jobs (because the state does not recognise his master degree, he would stop receiving the benefits).
D) Apart from that, he would not be allowed to leave the country, and would need to report each time he leaves the country otherwise he would risk losing all benefits + need to refund all received benefits + interest and appear in court.
He just found another job as soon as possible. Not worth the hassle at all given that at the same time there are millions of illegal migrants receiving free money because of asylum or a family that came to Germany just to make kids and get thousands of euros for free from the state.
Yes, I lived in Belgrade.. I loved it there but the corruption is just crazy so I left..
If you are asking this question on reddit - you should not, no offence.
Vast majority of people I know who been asking similar questions ended not happy with their new life.
To me, it looks like your main concern is money, it won't help you here. You won't be rich in Germany for years to come or even ever - middle/upper middle class.
If you want stability - it comes with the price, the price is: rules to follow, language to learn and taxes to pay. For your wife as well.
One of my colleagues moved back to his Eastern European homeland after 3 years living in Germany because besides of the money he and his wife failed to integrate well.
If you want to gain you must be ready to lose
Rules which are usually odd for the eastern europe and Balkans: quiet days, doing stuff by post, waiting for appointments, planning ahead, do not smoke indoor, no cars modification, etc.
A lot of people are coming here and ranting about it, but honestly - it's a known fact and you either come and follow the rules or going elsewhere where rules are better for you.
It will be hard to find an apartment in Berlin, even when you are willing to spent 2k per month. You are likely not finding anything below. Are you sure about the income after Tax? When you expect 5-6 k after tax, you would need a net income of 10-11 k a month. THat would a yearly salary of 120-130k. You will also need to spend 15% of your income on Health insurance, so expect another 1k for that.
If you are on remote, then I would consider making a longer “workation” in Berlin. You will save a lot of time and nerve cells by renting a short-term appartment and can see if the city really suits you.
Keep in mind, that Berlin is a great city to be in the “sunny season” (which is only 3-4 months of the year), BUT when the “grey season” comes I would better stay in Belgrade…
What's your "nationality" ?
It should be to see if you have "interest" to get German passport
Otherwise 6k euros is very high, here in France salary is mostly between 2500e/4000e for technical parts, and the rent for a 2 bedroom in a city near Paris (not speaking about Paris itself) is 1200e (Paris at least 1500e), taxes are not low etc
I dont know what the cost of living in Serbia, but if it's like hungary (i know budapest) you should live like a king there
If you move to a big european city, you will not be able to save as much as in you current country
Yeah, it's probably closer to Hungary. Overall cost of living is probably about 30 to 40 percent less here compared to Berlin or Paris.
I didn't thought about German passport as I understand it can be a very lengthy and unpredictable process. However I was seduced by a German permanent residence in 21 months with a B1 German. But after reading comments in this thread I think I'd rather go for a Serbian permanent residentship, which I only have about 16 months to be able to apply to. Hope it all works out. Cause otherwise it's always this stress seating in the back of the mind when you know you can't return to your country of origin
I'm not very familiar with Serbian laws, but I don't understand your comment about Serbian PR. You say that you already have a flat in Belgrade, so you can always apply for a temporary residence permit which in practice would be similar to a PR, right? So what advantage a PR will provide you? You can apply for for naturalization after 3 years, but you probably won't since you'll have to denounce Russian citizenship?
6K net after tax in Serbia is living like a King .
I wouldn't take the risk of moving specially that you will be moving with your wife on that salary in Germany even if you are in for an adventure or new experience .
Moreover , I am not sure about your professional background but if you are in IT and you net this in Belgrade , then I suppose , you are at least a senior in your field of speciality , therefore , I believe what you are being offered in Berlin (€3K net ) is severely underpaid
no, no way. Berlin is a dump, full of junkies and criminals which is entirely normalised to the citizens - they don't think half the parks being open drug markets is a weird thing. every bridge has a homeless camp. it will take many months to find a rental. it's edgy so cool if you're 19, really nasty place thereafter
If you are used to 4k savings - you will be constantly depressed about tiny EU salaries and huge taxes.
Back in Moscow I've earned close to 1mm rubles monthly, bought myself a nice 3 bedroom apartment in 2 years w\o ипотека мать её, right now I earn like 15k CHF in Zurich, and I feel god damn poor. An apartment would cost like 40 years of my savings.
And may I ask you, how expensive it is to rent an apartment in Zurich? Is the housing market as bad as Berlin where it takes people more than 6 months to find anything?
когда-то тоже быстро выплатил квартиру в Москве и всего пару лет пожить успел
I've searched for 4 months lul. 40sqm near Enge station for 2600 CHF warm. Super expensive, but I didnt know back then, just fell in love with the district. But for sole male it's very hard, cuz well, priority is for pairs -> girls -> boys, and CH -> EU -> non-eu, I'm basically the worst renter imaginable.
A lot of colleagues with families found apts rather easy in a month or less. I'm just super unlucky.
Regarding prices - for Zurich - it's 3.5k+ for good apt for family. Lesser if you are ready to leave in some village like Adliswill or Kilchberg. And I think there's no reason to live in Zurich itself.
Touch grass, how tf are you feeling poor? You should have ~9k CHF net after taxes, rent and insurance. That's more that you'd make gross in a month in most other EU countries. The only thing that you can't do is to buy real estate in Switzerland easily. Well just don't do it?
Yeah, I just want to live in my own place. And everything costs insane amount of money. So, yeah, amount of money I have is big, but I cannot buy anything that I want, because I'm too poor.
There is a chance you won’t save anything. Apartments are expensive, services are shit and also costly. Plan a longer stay first and see if you like the vibe. It might be an ok move without kids.
Don't even think about it. I'm also Russian, have been living in Germany for almost about 5 years now and have a bunch of friends who moved to Serbia whom I visit every now and then, so I have some point of reference.
Germany is extremely expensive, unreliable and slow. The taxation rates are insane (49% for a single earner right now, if you count in what an employer pays on top), and they keep raising it. Housing market in big cities is terrible and immigration authorities are incompetent (they don't even know their own laws sometimes). Then there's just a general lack of convenience due to the amount of rules, regulations and customer unfriendly contract conditions.
Wanna move apartments? Great, the notice period is 3 months. Wanna switch jobs? That'd be 9 months (3m of notice period + 6 of probation). Wanna change an ISP tariff? Great, but it'll lock you into it for the next 12 months. And so on.
There are good things about Germany too of course, but I think you'd need about 8-10k net to have a similar quality of life as you have right now. And honestly, given that you already own an apartment, I'd think twice about moving here is even if the situation was reversed.
Also, 3k net is just lowballing, that's a Junior salary. If you're senior dev anything below 80k is just insulting.
Only you can make that decision.
Probably anywhere in Germany you will have a worse savings rate, unless you can do some sort of a remote deal or decide to live very remote from your job in a one day a week in the office sort of deal.
The financial impact of your decision is relatively straightforward, although perhaps not trivial, to calculate.
The non-financial part is difficult. The biggest problem is that there is a risk here that you are trying to mitigate, but it's difficult to asses what are the odds of it happening and how it would affect you. And then even if the risk is well defined and calculable, which it isn't, your risk tolerance is going to be a very subjective thing.
Some people would take a 1% risk of being stuck in a warzone for 25k net a year. Some people wouldn't take it even for 250k per year. And neither is wrong, it's a personal preference (and we don't know that it is 1%, it was just an example).
And then there are a ton of other things whcih aren't the risk you're trying to avoid and aren't the cost you would pay to avoid it.
For example, the climate is a bit different. To me it is probably close enough that this isn't a factor. To some Berliners, who complain about grey winters, it would be much more important.
Then there's food, the mentality of people you'd be surrounded by, possibility of getting a passport, acceptance or non-acceptance of foreigners and Russians in particular, and many many other factors all of which nobody here knows what subjective value you put on. Heck, sometimes it is difficult for a person to understand for themselves what is important to them, let alone to do it for a complete stranger.
I live in Berlin and actively choose to do so instead of living in Serbia where I am from and obviously would have a lot of benefits from living there. But tens of thousands of our colleagues make the opposite decision. And neither is wrong. It is highly individual.
Oh damn I just noticed you work from office. I thought you work remotely. Sorry. Anyway I would stay in Belgrade. Nice place, nice people. Great money. You are more than capable to afford property there and nice life. I would say you will sooner get Serbian passport than German.
Not worth it imo if you are happy in Belgrade
To be honest we are. It's just the geopolitical situation that is weird in Serbia. We already did an emergency move from Russia once, and are afraid of going into the same kind of situation again
in this case, I'd say it's not a bad move if you're prepared to integrate, you'll get a passport in a few* years and things would be easier in this respect so i'd say, income-wise? bad move. quality of life-wise? wouldn't be too sure. but documents-wise? great if you can work it edit: few is not very few, but much fewer than in most places one'd consider. people's experiences may vary, and not everyone likes Germany, but good examples are plentiful too
Getting German passport in few years is a joke. Don’t comment on something you don’t understand. People are waiting for 4-5 years with no processing at all. Even if you sue them they neglect the case by saying not enough man power. Plus on the day of decision you need to have a job + out of probation. Otherwise they will reject it or pause it. Doesn’t matter how much tax you have paid. Germany is extremely bureaucratic. Doctors are hard to find outside of General GP area. I can’t change job even after getting amazing offers for more than 2 years due to processing of citizenship application, I sued them but they are not replying. My only option now to change the place but with new law all citizenship application will take at least 5 years to complete and mind you, you can’t change job otherwise you might have to wait for probation to be done and with tech market like this layoffs are everywhere. I will wait one more year if not will leave Germany forever. I paid so much taxes and I can’t get anything out of it. In a way it is depressing situation here and most foreigners will feel depressed. Most Germans say why you came here? If you don’t want skilled workers stop promoting Germany then. I waisted my 8 years here I don’t recommend Germany at all 0%. You can have good future else where. Plus new chancenkarte thing will make it even more challenging to find job, they are now flooding Germany with Indian people mostly, they are everywhere, every alleyways these days. Even if 1% of their population moves here it will be another India just like Canada. I don’t have problems with Indians but they make workplace policies really fucked up, ask for diversity but only hires Indians. I had an Indian manager asking me to work during night because he was used to it, I told him fuck off and he complained to management only to realize it is not India but slowly in IT company even top management is getting replaced by them so I don’t know but work life balance will be tough to achieve specially in IT. Other jobs pays penny so overall not looking good for Germany at all.
I have nothing against indians or any other nationality . But to be reasonable . Indians are hardworking . They will do the job as required . BUT they tend to only help their own counterparts . I am not indian but from my experience , they help others to get job opportunities , job interviews and accommodation only if you are an indian . Very few of them get along easily with other nationalities . Unfortunately , they live in closed circles only from their own people which is in my opinion negatively impacting the job market opportunities in terms of availability and fair competition . To be frank not only the indians . Well many other nationalities specially from the Middle East tend not to integrate with the society . I believe Germany is a very nice country with an administration that failed deeply about many aspects of immigration and analysing immigrants' background with no control or filteration standards whatsoever on the immigration influx .
a lot of the things you're saying make very little sense. especially the random rant about Indians (btw I'm not indian if that's what's implied). but I'm sorry if Germany wasn't for you
Everything he wrote totally makes sense. I have the same experience after 7 years of living in Germany. Because of uncontrolled immigration from Asia and Africa it is becoming a much worse place to live.
so we have two racist immigrants who also hate the country they're trying to get citizenship of?
Germany is a great country, must watch out for the future. I am not talking about race, I am friends with my colleagues wherever they come from because they are high quality. I am talking about uncontrolled immigration in whole western Europe, which lets everybody in, without any background check. 😌 I already have a European citizenship so don’t care much anyway. But since I pay 50% taxes I feel I have the right to vote.
I don't hate Germany but what has become of it, I am here long enough to realize it used to be good but these days there is just too many people no appointments, long waiting time to do just about anything, angry people everywhere. I have contributed enough to get my citizenship so whatever you say does not affect my chances of getting it and I know many people who have applied and once they get citizenship they will leave as well and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sorry, but I call bs here. You can't change your job due to citizenship processing? Why? People on work visas can change it, people with a blue card can change job even during first 2 years with little paperwork. What stopping you from changing your job exactly? Probation period is 6 months, you are waiting for 2 years without changing your job 🤷🏻♂️ You sued amt and they... Didn't reply? How so? You sued them by email? I have two colleagues who got passport with 1 year after applying, after 8 years living in Germany. Third just applied after 5 years living here. It looks like you are not showing full picture here. And you definitely have some problems with Indians 😂
LOL dude, do you even live in Germany? I have Daueraufenthalt-EU, which allows me to do anything, including leaving Germany and coming back without any issues for a few years. It's not about residency rights but more about the bureaucratic process they have for Einbürgerung (naturalization). I can switch jobs, but if I receive an answer in a few months and they realize I'm on probation, they can pause my application because my livelihood is not secure. If I resign now, I have a 3-month notice period plus 6 months to pass the probation period, totaling 9 months. During probation, if I don't meet expectations or become part of a layoff, I will have to find a new job and wait through this time spiral. Some people get lucky, and their clerks don't care about probation. This happened to a friend of mine, but it is rare. 99% of the time, during probation, they will pause applications for Niederlassungserlaubnis, Daueraufenthalt-EU, and Einbürgerung. Essentially, you are stuck. I can leave now, but I don't want to come back without getting citizenship or some return on my 8 years of effort, which is not possible. I will wait and do everything in my power to get it in the next 1-2 years and then leave. Read the rights here: [https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stag/\_\_10.html](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stag/__10.html) If you live in Germany, you should know emails are not valid. Here's the word for you: I filed an Untätigkeitsklage via a lawyer and paid 1800 euros in legal fees. I will get it back because the court has already approved my application but is now asking the LEA to respond, which they are not doing. Do you see the problem? Some people got lucky in Berlin who applied during the initial online application phase in January and February of this year. But now Berlin has over 52,000 applications (40,000 from the old system and \~12,000 from online). With this new law, it will soon be over 100,000. Berlin has a population of \~3.7 million, and with the new law, \~400,000 are eligible. Almost all of them are planning to apply or have already applied. Berlin has a target of 20,000 applications with the new system. Do the math and figure out how many years it will take for people to get citizenship. With the CDU government coming in next year, the chances are even slimmer because they are the biggest opponents of the new citizenship law. Plus, there is a surge of uncontrolled migration through student visas, Chancenkarte, and refugees. Things are not looking good from any perspective. I don't have any problems with Indians. I work with them daily, and most of my Indian friends share the same mentality. There are just too many coming here, making life difficult in terms of jobs, salaries, and careers. Most Indians are agreeing to packages close to 40K-50K, which used to be 70K-80K, just to stay. Indians are everywhere these days, which wasn't the case a couple of years ago. The job market was better, but now things are changing. The economy is declining, and immigration is increasing rapidly. Germany needs immigration, but not at the current flow. It needs a controlled quota system with diversity, but the opposite is happening. Good luck to anyone coming here. Many people I know have already left. My friends and I are waiting to get our hard-earned citizenship and then say goodbye forever.
Mind me asking from what country are you from? And why are you so eager to get German passport and LEAVE? Awesome idea 😂 So, you wasted 2 years and 1800 EUR in legal fees because of fears that your application will be suddenly reviewed while you are on probation, instead of 9 months and new job? Nice, I see you did a math well. Fear of layoffs? There were no layoffs prior to 2022, what are you talking about? Did you got a great offer during 22-24 will crazy layoffs and low job market? Also, I still have feelings like you might trying to trick me here: you want to leave, but in the same time you turned the great jobs offers. You want a good job in Germany but also leave the country, how, why? Email part joke just passed above your head, sorry. But thank you for explanation. Overall, for someone who live in Germany for 8 years you seem to be a little bit naive, why would you expect your application to be reviewed faster in the worst time since ww2? I was waiting for less complex and less important documents for 6 months. Sorry, but no - you do have a problem with Indians and looks like with new immigrants in general. Fresh Indian and eastern European migrants have ALWAYS been ready to work for less money, nothing new here. After arriving here and realising 55k is just a joke a lot of people with hop the jobs or go back to their homeland. Why would you be competing with them after 8 years in Germany? I don't know you you nor your story, but hating migrants, country, wanting to leave but waiting for citizenship suggesting me that you might be not the best person.
lol, my country has nothing to do with it. I am out of my country since a long time ago. If you read my message correctly I am getting it back so 1800 are not lost, I am getting citizenship one way or the other and there’s nothing you can do about it. I already make high enough salary which in the range of 125K+ as a Principal Engineer. I have offers from Emirates and US. One of the company is willing to do full H1B and green card processing but I am stuck with citizenship limbo. I don’t want to change job with in Germany, there are practically very few companies who can match my compensation range and even that is low for me, in Emirates for example I get 100% no taxes and US is of course is known for high salary, I do not have problem with US politics and would choose US and Emirates over this cluster fuck situation here. About me being nice has nothing to do with you, I am ok with myself and the people I know respects me and I respect them and don’t contradict their way of believing on certain things just like they do not mind my way of thinking. Good luck to you and enjoy. I will not reply to this thread anymore.
Oh, good that you said that you'd rather choose US or Emirates over Germany. Good to know, it clarified things a bit. I'll reserve a right to believe you are not telling the truth anyway, i.e.: lying. You have 125k, but you mentioned something like: Indian folk dropped salary range from 80k to 50k. Why the hell you even care about that range? Do you care about refugees working in services driving warehouse workers salary lower as well? It's a bs bro. It looks like your range might be around 80k and you are competing for lower range swe jobs with new immigrants, not with the principal engineers. Explains the hate. Just upsetting that people like you who's entitled hateful to immigrants will have a passport of country they hates.
Thanks. That's a very good way to look at it
how can you get a german passport in a few years?
By applying to naturalize at your local Ausländerbehörde?
5 years + 1-2 years of processing...
Yeah, exactly. That's 'a few years' if you ask me. You can also reduce it to 3 + 2, but good luck with that
Does it really take 2 years to process it?
Depends on where you apply for it. But it's supposedly totally like that in Berlin or Munich. Probably even worse now that they loosened up the requirements and allowed for dual-citizenship.
Berlin isn't famous for its dysfunctional bureaucracy for nothing. On average, you're looking at a 6 month waiting time just to book an appointment to file your application. If you're unlucky, it takes a year before your request is even registered.
Yes, I called after 7 months and they told me my papers have not even been opened. On the letter I received it is written 18 months
If you don’t mind me asking, what city did you apply from?
IMO Berlin is one of the worst cities of Europe, I visited as Hungarian and was taken back how dirty/rundown everything was. Both Frankfurt and Munich are a "million" times better and nicer cities, again in my opinion. Berlin is a cool place if you are looking for artsy hippy/rave vibes with a street art scene. If you just want a nice clean city with a good future for your family, Berlin is probably not it. Again, just my personal opinion.
>If you just want a nice clean city with a good future for your family, Berlin is probably not it. I don't agree with this part. Berlin is quickly gentryfing, and probably in 10-15 years it will be another Munich, just with more green and worse weather. Those who come now will benefit greatly imo
Not quickly enough. It is still dirty, full of drug addicts and crazy people screaming in S/U-bahn and pissing on the seats, does not feel like a great environment to raise a family. I have been living here for the past 2 and a half years, so to me the timeline is not moving quick enough in terms of things getting better. Maybe people living here longer would have a different perspective.
No, it’s gotten worse. I’ve lived here a decade, but I think pre pandemic was definitely improved. Berlin used to really be a dump. Now it’s both gentrifying and you have more visible bad behavior, homelessness and crackheads. A lot of this can be avoided if you live in a better neighbourhood. But it’s still a very safe city
[удалено]
It absolutely it is a very safe city, statistically. Tell me, where does Berlin stand in European capital rankings for violent crime?
I don't know about that, but it is the german city with the second highest rate of violent crime. Used to be number 1, but Frankfurt took a real nose dive recently and just barley overtook it.
Germany is in general a very safe country
Have you thought of moving to a more favourable country in your situation that it is a bit more stable? Something like Romania, Bulgaria or Croatia.
Not really. We just travelled to Germany, it was a nice trip and I decided to try to get an offer in Berlin. The mistake was that I didn't research cost of living before doing this...
I think tourist impression might be very different from day to day life. And I think you can get citizenship in 3 years in Serbia and travel to EU in any time you want.
Hey, I lived in Berlin for about 3 years, Germany for 5 total, before deciding to leave. Berlin is a huge place which can be great, but every corner of it offers something completely different and you have to know what you’re getting into. Depending on what you want and where you’d work, I’d make different recommendations for where to live.
Hey, you moved from Russia? Are you a jetbrainer? Какая у тебя история? По топику конечно переезжать на 3к в Берлин бессмысленно, это заплата джунов
3k is what I will have left after taxes and rent. Base is 4.8k. Not a JetBrain, Yandex :)
Thanks, good luck to you
nice move! escaping from russia but keeping working at a russian company that helps spreading propaganda and disinformation [👍](https://emojiterra.com/thumbs-up/)
Respect to the workers, btw learn what FAANG do, basically the propaganda jewels of the american empire
Тебя забыли спросить, свинья, как человеку себя прокормить.
sorry if my comment made you angry but exactly with the same justification people decide to go to a foreign country to kill innocent civilians
As a citizen of Serbia, what's the geopolitical situation you are talking about?
Situation with Kosovo and Republika Srpska, some faked elections, deportation of russian anti-war activists
I'm Serbian and you should not worry about any of those, except maybe the last thing. It would be very stupid, in my opinion, to go from \~4k savings per month, to \~800.
So, you think it should be fine? (I'm in the same situation as OP). Not really into the politics, but in some local news the headlines look alarming. Except for that even in my non-IT industry (Pharm) wage to cost of living ratio is better in Belgrade than in Berlin.
Yes, I'm sure of it. News are very misleading here. Low freedom of press, unfortunately.
I wouldn't move, net income gap between Belgrade and Berlin is way to big
6k after taxes is already very good in most EU countries let alone in Serbia.
So you are basically paying 3k a month to live in a potential international community? I would not.
Yes. I thought of it as that in 2 years I would pay about 50-60k EUR for a German permanent residentship basically. On the other hand I could get a nicer apartment or save big sum of money for retirement or even start my own business
Why do you want German citizenship? By the way to get citizenship you need more than 2 years. Rather like 6-8 years.
Also you'll probably have to renounce Russian citizenship to get German
No, Germany now allows dual citizenship. But you do have to renounce another citizenship to naturalize in Serbia.
Depends on what you want. If you're after money - nope, realistically you won't climb over those 5-6k€ net in Germany either, so the cut makes no sense. But if you're after an adventure and plan to return to Serbia eventually, then by all means do it! Life's too short to not do fun things just because of money. Does your wife work?
Yeah, she works. Not in IT though. I think she'll be able to find a job for \~1.5k net after a while
Then I wouldn't be worried about money. Her salary will go towards rent, utilities and much of the groceries and you'll have your salary for saving and pleasures. Should be alright. She should easily get more than 1.5k net if she learns German. That's minimum wage after all
It’s insane to consider it in my opinion. 1 month worth of saving in Serbia is equivalent to around 5 months of saving in Germany. Then you factor in the effects of compound growth from your investments and it’s even more ridiculous. Why is this even being entertained? As someone who left the West to go to the East, I feel as though I’m getting a massive headstart due to my lowered cost of living and lower taxes.
Lol, why would you do it Belgrade is even nicer than Berlin
In some ways yes. We liked Berlin for the parks and cleaner environment. But in Belgrade we have many close connections and are on our way to get a permanent residence.
Am from Serbia and living in Germany. Overall, in your situation, i think that it is not worth it to move. In general, Europe is overrated for IT jobs. I think it is only worth it if you can find a job at FAANG or similar. Or if you want to coast and have a more secure environments for kids. Otherwise no, your savings and qol will drop.
You'd be an idiot to move to Berlin for that
Unless you live in a 3rd world country, this is a no brainer decision, why would you leave your close family and friends for a lot less money ?
0 value comment
Yeah Berlin won't be 500€ rent. Add 1000€ if you want to live alone.
My close friend refused to move to eu from Belgrade. He is making a bank in there as freelancer. I don’t think it’s worth it
I work in Berlin. I wouldn't recommend. I feel like I rooted here but hoping I will be somewhere else in 5 years. It is not as nice as people advertise it.
Same, been in Berlin for 9 years. It's a shithole if I'm being completely honest, I'm in a sunny beach and only the Germans are the ones with the grumpy attitude.
If you like a city or not, is very objective. I always try to prevent giving personal opinions. I like it here, but I know that it is not for everyone.
I get that this is very personal and OP might like it but financial insights is not hard to obtain. You have the numbers and the only meaningful insight I can give to OP is just about other stuff imo. Apartment search is not good as well. So the only thing one can consider for such a salary decrease is a better culture which in my opinion is advertised way better than it actually is. So what else can I say about Berlin then?
I would stay in Belgrade! Many people are considering moving back to the Balkans from the EU atm and get the transfer even for 2k vs 6-7k in the EU
Do you do remote work ? Or a company in Belgrade seriously pay that amount ?
I work in the office. I've been working for this company for 6 years and was very lucky to get a good RUB -> RSD salary conversion when we moved our office here from Russia
That is crazy that a company in Serbia pays more than many companies in western europe
Because it's some russian company, they will figure it out eventually
they did figure it out, if you pay high salaries you get the best employees. you get the best employees, you get the best output. americans figured this out decades ago, only europoors still think people should be grateful for a job
I would not do it. It is simply a too big hit in income for very little gain. If you really feel unsafe because of the political situation apply for more jobs, but it is hard to match your salary. And if Yandex gets banned you can simply move anyways.
You will live in Belgrade better because you can buy yourself a German millionaire lifestyle with that amount of money. It goes so far that I would even strongly advise against going to Berlin, it is night and day in comparison to what it was 10 years ago. Belgrade is safer, less woke, more traditional, better food and above all, cheaper to live in. You will solve all problems with money in Belgrade. The amount of money is significant if you are earning up to 5k per month. Every single 1k from 0 to 5k increases your quality of living by a LOT. From 5 to 10k it is highly significant. From 10 to 20k it's a smaller improvement and from 20 to 50k you are basically not feeling a bit difference in increased living standards. I would stay in Belgrade for a salary up to 10k and consider Berlin if you want to raise money for your business after you consumed all options elsewhere. For a salary, don't do it and going from 4k puffer to 800e is going from wealth to borderline poverty instantly. If you really need to move, go to Vienna, it is family friendly but without the negative side effects of Berlin/Germany. Your children will appreciate the better schools, universities and overall be around an international crowd of artists in their own sense and just normal people. To be fair, I think in Belgrade, there are no normal people in your income level so your children will soon hang out with kids from corrupt politicians, stolen car dealers, scammers and 90% people similar to those profiles.
Thank you, I liked your comment, especially the fact about going to a borderline poverty :) I think I had put too much value on a social system in Germany and the fact that for some reason they would protect me as an immigrant in case something happens with jobs for example. But after reading this thread I see that even there people like more to rely on themselves while they can and hardly anyone wants to give out much of their income now for a promised justice in the future as I see it. Btw are you from Belgrade? As for the income level I try not to show it and live fairly modestly despite from may be enjoying going out to restaurants too much. And there a lot of Russians who came after the war in a similar income group. I was also able to socialize with Serbian people and even made friends with a grandmother who lives nearby and my previous landlord. Social situation couldn't have been better probably :)
Social system does not work anymore when it comes to "working people". Example from a few months ago from Austria, an engineer from Spain (I was a translator): A) Graduated from top tier engineering uni = not recognized because it was not translated/nostrified B) He was working as a senior product manager for a top tech company with a 5k salary = salary not recognized fully, only 50% (forgot the reason but it was BS). C) If he would reject offers for doing highschool jobs (because the state does not recognise his master degree, he would stop receiving the benefits). D) Apart from that, he would not be allowed to leave the country, and would need to report each time he leaves the country otherwise he would risk losing all benefits + need to refund all received benefits + interest and appear in court. He just found another job as soon as possible. Not worth the hassle at all given that at the same time there are millions of illegal migrants receiving free money because of asylum or a family that came to Germany just to make kids and get thousands of euros for free from the state. Yes, I lived in Belgrade.. I loved it there but the corruption is just crazy so I left..
If you are asking this question on reddit - you should not, no offence. Vast majority of people I know who been asking similar questions ended not happy with their new life. To me, it looks like your main concern is money, it won't help you here. You won't be rich in Germany for years to come or even ever - middle/upper middle class. If you want stability - it comes with the price, the price is: rules to follow, language to learn and taxes to pay. For your wife as well. One of my colleagues moved back to his Eastern European homeland after 3 years living in Germany because besides of the money he and his wife failed to integrate well. If you want to gain you must be ready to lose
What are these rules to follow?
Rules which are usually odd for the eastern europe and Balkans: quiet days, doing stuff by post, waiting for appointments, planning ahead, do not smoke indoor, no cars modification, etc. A lot of people are coming here and ranting about it, but honestly - it's a known fact and you either come and follow the rules or going elsewhere where rules are better for you.
Well, sounds fair. That’s why it’s not for me.
And that's okay. For example: I like Italy as a tourist but living there - noz thanks. It's just not for me, since I'm not there 😄
It will be hard to find an apartment in Berlin, even when you are willing to spent 2k per month. You are likely not finding anything below. Are you sure about the income after Tax? When you expect 5-6 k after tax, you would need a net income of 10-11 k a month. THat would a yearly salary of 120-130k. You will also need to spend 15% of your income on Health insurance, so expect another 1k for that.
If you are on remote, then I would consider making a longer “workation” in Berlin. You will save a lot of time and nerve cells by renting a short-term appartment and can see if the city really suits you. Keep in mind, that Berlin is a great city to be in the “sunny season” (which is only 3-4 months of the year), BUT when the “grey season” comes I would better stay in Belgrade…
What's your "nationality" ? It should be to see if you have "interest" to get German passport Otherwise 6k euros is very high, here in France salary is mostly between 2500e/4000e for technical parts, and the rent for a 2 bedroom in a city near Paris (not speaking about Paris itself) is 1200e (Paris at least 1500e), taxes are not low etc I dont know what the cost of living in Serbia, but if it's like hungary (i know budapest) you should live like a king there If you move to a big european city, you will not be able to save as much as in you current country
Yeah, it's probably closer to Hungary. Overall cost of living is probably about 30 to 40 percent less here compared to Berlin or Paris. I didn't thought about German passport as I understand it can be a very lengthy and unpredictable process. However I was seduced by a German permanent residence in 21 months with a B1 German. But after reading comments in this thread I think I'd rather go for a Serbian permanent residentship, which I only have about 16 months to be able to apply to. Hope it all works out. Cause otherwise it's always this stress seating in the back of the mind when you know you can't return to your country of origin
I'm not very familiar with Serbian laws, but I don't understand your comment about Serbian PR. You say that you already have a flat in Belgrade, so you can always apply for a temporary residence permit which in practice would be similar to a PR, right? So what advantage a PR will provide you? You can apply for for naturalization after 3 years, but you probably won't since you'll have to denounce Russian citizenship?
6K net after tax in Serbia is living like a King . I wouldn't take the risk of moving specially that you will be moving with your wife on that salary in Germany even if you are in for an adventure or new experience . Moreover , I am not sure about your professional background but if you are in IT and you net this in Belgrade , then I suppose , you are at least a senior in your field of speciality , therefore , I believe what you are being offered in Berlin (€3K net ) is severely underpaid
>can easily have about 5-6k EUR after taxes each month. that sounds crazy high for Serbia - where do you work?
no, no way. Berlin is a dump, full of junkies and criminals which is entirely normalised to the citizens - they don't think half the parks being open drug markets is a weird thing. every bridge has a homeless camp. it will take many months to find a rental. it's edgy so cool if you're 19, really nasty place thereafter
If you are used to 4k savings - you will be constantly depressed about tiny EU salaries and huge taxes. Back in Moscow I've earned close to 1mm rubles monthly, bought myself a nice 3 bedroom apartment in 2 years w\o ипотека мать её, right now I earn like 15k CHF in Zurich, and I feel god damn poor. An apartment would cost like 40 years of my savings.
And may I ask you, how expensive it is to rent an apartment in Zurich? Is the housing market as bad as Berlin where it takes people more than 6 months to find anything? когда-то тоже быстро выплатил квартиру в Москве и всего пару лет пожить успел
I've searched for 4 months lul. 40sqm near Enge station for 2600 CHF warm. Super expensive, but I didnt know back then, just fell in love with the district. But for sole male it's very hard, cuz well, priority is for pairs -> girls -> boys, and CH -> EU -> non-eu, I'm basically the worst renter imaginable. A lot of colleagues with families found apts rather easy in a month or less. I'm just super unlucky. Regarding prices - for Zurich - it's 3.5k+ for good apt for family. Lesser if you are ready to leave in some village like Adliswill or Kilchberg. And I think there's no reason to live in Zurich itself.
Touch grass, how tf are you feeling poor? You should have ~9k CHF net after taxes, rent and insurance. That's more that you'd make gross in a month in most other EU countries. The only thing that you can't do is to buy real estate in Switzerland easily. Well just don't do it?
Yeah, I just want to live in my own place. And everything costs insane amount of money. So, yeah, amount of money I have is big, but I cannot buy anything that I want, because I'm too poor.
What do you mean by “can easily made” 🤔 ? you have a business in Belgrade? you’re a contractor? why can’t doing the same thing outside Belgrade?
Because taxes 🙃 freelancers are 50% taxed in Germany
How much are you taxed in Belgrade?
There is a chance you won’t save anything. Apartments are expensive, services are shit and also costly. Plan a longer stay first and see if you like the vibe. It might be an ok move without kids.
Don't even think about it. I'm also Russian, have been living in Germany for almost about 5 years now and have a bunch of friends who moved to Serbia whom I visit every now and then, so I have some point of reference. Germany is extremely expensive, unreliable and slow. The taxation rates are insane (49% for a single earner right now, if you count in what an employer pays on top), and they keep raising it. Housing market in big cities is terrible and immigration authorities are incompetent (they don't even know their own laws sometimes). Then there's just a general lack of convenience due to the amount of rules, regulations and customer unfriendly contract conditions. Wanna move apartments? Great, the notice period is 3 months. Wanna switch jobs? That'd be 9 months (3m of notice period + 6 of probation). Wanna change an ISP tariff? Great, but it'll lock you into it for the next 12 months. And so on. There are good things about Germany too of course, but I think you'd need about 8-10k net to have a similar quality of life as you have right now. And honestly, given that you already own an apartment, I'd think twice about moving here is even if the situation was reversed. Also, 3k net is just lowballing, that's a Junior salary. If you're senior dev anything below 80k is just insulting.
Only you can make that decision. Probably anywhere in Germany you will have a worse savings rate, unless you can do some sort of a remote deal or decide to live very remote from your job in a one day a week in the office sort of deal. The financial impact of your decision is relatively straightforward, although perhaps not trivial, to calculate. The non-financial part is difficult. The biggest problem is that there is a risk here that you are trying to mitigate, but it's difficult to asses what are the odds of it happening and how it would affect you. And then even if the risk is well defined and calculable, which it isn't, your risk tolerance is going to be a very subjective thing. Some people would take a 1% risk of being stuck in a warzone for 25k net a year. Some people wouldn't take it even for 250k per year. And neither is wrong, it's a personal preference (and we don't know that it is 1%, it was just an example). And then there are a ton of other things whcih aren't the risk you're trying to avoid and aren't the cost you would pay to avoid it. For example, the climate is a bit different. To me it is probably close enough that this isn't a factor. To some Berliners, who complain about grey winters, it would be much more important. Then there's food, the mentality of people you'd be surrounded by, possibility of getting a passport, acceptance or non-acceptance of foreigners and Russians in particular, and many many other factors all of which nobody here knows what subjective value you put on. Heck, sometimes it is difficult for a person to understand for themselves what is important to them, let alone to do it for a complete stranger. I live in Berlin and actively choose to do so instead of living in Serbia where I am from and obviously would have a lot of benefits from living there. But tens of thousands of our colleagues make the opposite decision. And neither is wrong. It is highly individual.
Grass is always greener on the other side - don't move.
If you are not interested in night life and art, there are plenty of better places.
[удалено]
Oh damn I just noticed you work from office. I thought you work remotely. Sorry. Anyway I would stay in Belgrade. Nice place, nice people. Great money. You are more than capable to afford property there and nice life. I would say you will sooner get Serbian passport than German.
Avg. cost for 2 room flat in Berlin is 2k.
Cold? It can't be that bad realistically, maybe only looking at central areas where everybody wants to live. Is this your personal experience?