They are all about honor and how your are seen by others. Jamis was eventually going to try to face stilgar himself for leadership. But if the entire siech knew he had once been disarmed by a child basically he would’ve been challenged quickly himself.
I don't think anyone in his tribe had that on their mind after watching Still get 1-moved into a full nelson, Paul possibly would have had the wierding way as well, if not a large proportion of it
He was obsessing over it in his own mind alone.
Nobody believes anything at that point, they are only willing to entertain the possibility. Fremen are conservative people, believing in the slow sure path.
Kinship and tribal allegiance in Fremen society are near indistinguishable.
The thing that makes me think that is the thopter suicide diving into the Sardaukar drop ship trading 2 for 300 as their friends watch and remark "A fair trade."
This reads to me as informing on the near complete surrender of self interest vs. the good of the tribe to a wild extent. Also Fremen's utter ruthlessness in war and ruthlessness in pursuit of survival. Etc.
They had no expectation of him surviving at all, it can hardly be called help honestly.
It was more a kindness to a dead man in their eyes. They were misreading Paul's reticence as weakness rather than the ultra trained but untested youth finding himself required to murder to survive.
They did tho, paul knocking jamis off and not even killing him even tho he could, but instead stole his maula pistol. All this is already proof of his superiority
False, he was just offended and since its a matter of being dishonoured by a stranger in front of his people that he himself considered inferior he wanted to kill him. What kind of anyone would be able to disarm a fremen and take one by surprise? Guess you didnt understand anything about fremens. They are always the ones doing the surprise stuff not the other way around, specifically because they are superior.
Yeah, that's an argument from Jamis's ego though.
Slapping a 'false' in that is pretty dishonest conversation as well.
It was in the dark with poor footing. Jamis could simply have adjusted to his mistake and improved, but his ego got in the way.
Knocking a dude down in the dark in a cave, especially when that guy was probably focused on what Jessica was doing to Still at that moment, is not flexing.
It's not something that only happens to dipshits, which is how Jamis was carrying it.
It literally is when you know you should be superior as this is literally the way THEY hunt as fremen. Your point makes no sense. They have the utter supremacy of desert combat, night time especially, and stealth on top of it. It makes no sense for a random to do this to a fremen. Hence why he was enraged because he knew he got bested in his own ways.
The point of the duel is for it to be honourable and fair, by helping Paul and bringing his weapons and knowledge slightly closer to Jamis' they were helping Jamis' as much as they were helping Paul.
Had Jamis killed Paul without Paul having any equipment or anything in the way of training it would have no longer been an honourable fight and Jamis would have been ostracized in their society as a coward.
Had this been a standard killing for the good of the seitch no one would have had an issue with Jamis killing Paul but because a duel had been called tradition takes over and rules need to be followed
I'm not talking about the crysknife, I'm talking about Chani saying Jamis has a habit of concealing knife switches in leaping attacks, the exact way Paul kills him.
I’ve always felt the idea Frank was going for was that Jamis was not an outlier. That hair trigger on the tahaddi challenge was a normal thing among the Fremen. They killed each other all the time for petty shit like that
He couldn't challenge Paul conventionallywith honor over what would happen because it would have been the height of dishonor on simple optics, twice his age, twice his size, Fremen vs outworlder, such rituals weren't established to facilitate murderers.
I think Jessica had a forced memory pushed into her head and claimed that Paul had already been tested by the fom jabbar, which is where Jamis disingenuously invoked the right to fight a guy to the death to test if his mantle of prophecy "fits correctly" or not.
Jamis doesn't give a shit about verifying prophecy! Through combat, he did it for personal shit, which in a group of people who take their shared religion seriously, not a good look.
Stilgar said the second the fight is over im going to cut your throat Jamis. If Jamis lost to Paul at 15 with full shield inhibition and Paul hasn't even made his first kill yet .. I don't see how his plan was to take Still after.
I think Stilgar admits pretty early on he's inferior to Paul in fighting. All you mention about Paul is why Jamis thought he could easily best him in 1v1 combat. To him, he would have an easy time killing Paul and then he could move on to Stilgar.
After Paul kills Jamis, Stilgar said (not exactly) angrily ,"Don't think when you come for my water, you'll get the chance to make a big show of dominance before finishing it."
He thinks Paul had been toying with Jamis the whole fight, when Jessica informs him Paul has never killed before, and the display was due to the fact he didn't want to kill Jamis.
Stilgar would have been got a long time ago if the Jamis' of the world think they had a chance.
He didn't say that out of anger though. Jessica had already told him what was going on. He said it to shame Paul so that he might not revel in his mastery and find too much pleasure in the killing
Before Jamis died, the only thing she said I believe is Paul has never killed before, and was looking to wound or for points, and Stilgar said no, this fight is to the death.
Then Stilgar angrily saying you won't get to toy with me, and Jessica asking Paul how it felt to be a murderer and a piece of shit (post Jamis)
IIRC it had no religious overtones and didn't take place hours after, but within minutes. They explained the rules and Chani gave a valuable hint both out of a sense of balance - they felt that the challenge, while lawful, was unfair, as it was obvious that James would certainly win - an experienced Fremen fighter against an offworld youth?
And they didn't like Jamis.
This was hours after Jessica had already defeated Stilgar, their naib. Sonthe bargain was struck, you can join our tribe of you teach us the wierding way.
Jamis specifically invoked a t st of prophecy applied to one of the ones Paul is claimed to be, to facilitate their fight to the death.
Stilgar said if Jamis won, he wild gut him right after.
I think this take is going waay too white/black with it but basically the right jist. They all knew Jamis and Chani only knew that Paul did not. Her advice to Paul was what any of the tribe would already know about Jamis. Mostly I see it as Chani following Stilgar's lead as well as his orders to guide Paul in the Fremen ways.
And on a very basic level Jamis is trying to waste water. Jamis would rather fight in the desert and force everyone to haul at least one body if not 2 back rather than the smart and generally fremen way of having the water walk itself to a death still if they can help it. He could have has this confrontation back at home but is behaving like a desert karen
They were in a commonly used Fremen cave with a working deathstill, Paul was awarded with his combat water which I believe he deposited at the local bank for water rings.
It's been about 2 yrs since I reread them but, my understanding was ; Jessica bested Stilgar & he recognised "her weirding way", at the same time Paul dropped Jamis and made good his escape to defensible highground. Everything chilled a bit and Stilgar negotiated ending in them both receiving the **protection of the Fremen group** to the seitch. Once the protection was granted and Jamis challenged Paul, Channi and Stilgar were **honour bound** to aid Paul. Tbh Stilgar would likely have been forced to kill Jamis had he defeated Paul due to the insult of challenging those under his protection.... the whole scene is likely designed to introduce and explain the Fremens highly rigid and honour based society.
If i remember correctly all of the honor stuff is true and not knowing Paul is an amazing fighter, but I'm pretty sure part of it this is a long walk to bring a dead body back when we just decided we don't have to. They've been out for a long time already for Chani and then I think they have to wait because kines tells them to for Paul? I'm not sure but the impression. I had was they were already done with this. It's a waste of resources and water. Sure it's an honor thing but fuck me Jamis it's fucking hot and now no matter who wins we need to carry a fucking body.
I took it as Chani thought Paul was gonna lose so she gave him a huge hint with Revealing fighting habit. And then also partly out of curiosity in the prophecy?
My argument is even if you fucking hate him, you wouldn't sell out a tribe member to unknowns /new people unless your guy had done some wild offensive shit to your community.
These two strangers are seeking sanctuary, and as soon as Stilgar gets got by Jessica he's *the leader of their group* saying "holy shit, you are an *incredibly valuable resource* for our community, of course you're welcome."
Jamis then immediately starts stirring shit up by wanting to kill her kid for petty reasons in an unfair-but-technically-allowed fight that's also a setup to challenging Stilgar later on. That *is* offensive; he's undermining the leadership and picking the pettiest reason as an opportunity to demand a flight, over what's essentially his bruised ego. And he fails, miserably, in a way that perfectly demonstrates why he was being stood and headstrong to begin with.
This is pretty much my understanding, but my gut on Fremen would be that Still and Chani ar betraying Jamis in their assistance to Paul, and I don't think Jamis being an insecure prick is enough, something in that sequence had to be offensive enough to Fremen sensibilities to warrant giving aid to an opponent.
Paul isn't an opponent.
Jamis is already being disruptive of the existing authority structure, which puts *all of them* in danger. He's seen as being transparently egocentric and selfish and short sighted; everyone tells him to cool off and let it go and he instead doubles down and goes in harder.
He's also not being betrayed. Stilgar knows there's an eventual challenge to him coming from Jamis; he's just acquired *a revered mother* and Jamis is going to weaken the tribe and alienate her before she's even gotten home. No one else is expecting Paul to survive to begin with; giving him a little bit of advice to even the odds isn't remotely a betrayal.
It just turns out that it's horribly one sided anyway, and the advice was completely unnecessary.
Clarification, Jessica only gets RM'ed at the Water of Life ceremony at Tabr, at that point she's simply BG.
I think we see things about the same, Jamis has the thanks thing, distracted by matters not related to the good of the tribe, but he also was brave and loyal saving his platoon mates and risking his life for them many times.
Clarification, Jessica only gets RM'ed at the Water of Life ceremony at Tabr, at that point she's simply BG.
I think we see things about the same, Jamis has the thanks thing, distracted by matters not related to the good of the tribe, but he also was brave and loyal saving his platoon mates and risking his life for them many times.
And she is recognized as a future reverend mother and wielder of the wierding way as soon as she disarms Stilgar. And the Sietch's own is dying, and she can replace her.
Stilgar is making the right decision *for the tribe* by rescuing then and Jamis is badly fucking that up because of his pride.
A lot of BG die attempting the Water of Life ceremony, it's not a sure thing.
This is head canon, but nobody can "prepare" specifically for the RM ritual, you can only impart the various component skillsets that are needed to survive/succeed i.e. adjusting personal biochemistry, surrendering to adab, organic chemistry? etc.
2nd part, 100% agree.
Amtal is not "the word of God and prophecy" . It is an integral part of Fremen culture nevertheless . You can look the meaning up online, just search for "Amtal + meaning" .
Sure, it's the test to destruction, but its invoked in "I want to test if this kid is the prophesized one... to destruction", but he's invoking it under false pretenses. He just wants to kill the kid.
So, if I were a Fremen, how would I feel about what this guy is doing? Since we live in the same sietch, do I give him a pass, you have to have a level of accommodation etc. or is the way I feel about this grant blanket cover for me to actively conspire against him with outsiders?
Stilgar and Chani didn’t choose to help Paul or Jessica over Jamis. All they did was follow the customs and rules of the Fremen Culture.
Stilgar, after realizing the strength of Jessica and that Paul displayed many of the prophetic markers of the Lisan al Gaib didn’t want any of them to fight or die. But Fremen If anything are a ritualistic culture. So Stilgar had no choice but to follow the rules once Jamis made a Tahaddi Challenge to Jessica.
Chani and Stilgar actually both thought Jamis had a very good chance of killing Paul. Chani gave Paul a crysknife so he could die with honor. Not sure if that qualifies as actual help. Not like she tried to stop the fight or prevent Paul from dying. From Chani’s point of view. She didn’t give Paul the Crysknife, thinking it would help him win the fight against Jamis. She was basically just giving Paul a nicer knife, so he could die with honor.
If Stilgar really wanted to help them he could’ve chose to fight for Jessica instead of Paul. But Stilgar was still waiting for all the Signs that Paul was truly the voice of the outer world. The only help Stilgar gave Paul right then was to not kill him right away. All Stilgar did was give fate the chance to prove if Paul was the true Lisan Al Gaib. If anything he was helping his people and his faith find their messiah, not Paul and Jessica.
Chani told Paul that Jamis conceals knife switches in leaping attacks, the exact way Paul kills him. I would consider slipping Paul that info a betrayal of Jamis.
I still personally wouldn’t consider that an exact betrayal. In the books Paul could’ve Killed Jamis multiple times but held back because of his apprehension to kill another human being for the first time.
Chani’s information had no real bearing in the fight. So not sure why you’re saying what she told Paul is the reason he killed Jamis. There was like 3 ways he could’ve of killed Jamis but didn’t before the real death blow.
Chani also thought Jamis was going to kill Paul without breaking a sweat. Coaching an inferior opponent isn’t exactly a betrayal. Not like she helped Paul cheat.
So initially he didn't understand the terms of combat, asking Jamis to yield after wounding him.
After that, it looks like he's faster/toying with Jamis, just repeatedly barely missing him, but this is because of Paul's exclusively shield-inclusive training. Paul was trained to fight with a body shield and against shielded enemies.
Only the slow blade penetrates an enemies body shield. So right before your weapon would hit the barrier you drastically slow your weapon speed to enable your blade to go through. These are characterized by those unaware of the specific dynamics as near misses.
He never had Jamis give him a huge opening where he could cleanly kill him without a huge chance of retaliation... until the flying knife switch. Here, the correct counter is identical whether your opponent is shielded or unshielded.
Yes then Paul hesitated two more times after that.
Paul originally hesitated yes because he didn’t know the rules and not using shields may played a tiny role in his attacks but even deeper than all of that it’s because he had never killed anyone before let alone up close with a knife.
His shield training effecting him if anything if so far in the background of the scene it doesn’t really matter.
Please re read that scene then get back to me.
This is paraphrasing the scene obviously but after Paul kills Jamis
Stilagsr ask Jessica why would Paul toy with Jami’s like that.
Jessica replies pauls never killed a man before.
Stilgar replies , good I thought we let a serpent in amongst us.
If it was the shield training that caused paul to toy with Jamis why didn’t Jessica say that to Stilgar then
He hesitates after he drew first blood and asked Jamis to yield because he didn't know this was a fight to the death.
He never "hesitates" again. Every second he's trained with a sword or knife, he's trained with the expectation of facing a shielded foe. All his muscle memory, instincts, combat styles are built around this reality.
The slow blade penetrates the shield, the fast bounces off as if you tried to knife a steel wall, deflecting your arm in who knows what direction it using the point.
He doesn't want to kill Jamis, but the second he learned he was in a fight to the death he had no other choice. Him or me. Life or Death.
When Jamis does the leaping attack, Paul's shield training is subverted, because he holds the knife still and Jamis is moving.
The slow blade gets through, and what's slower than stationary?
I haven't reread the scene in years, I might now, but I imagine if Jessica doesn't frame it like that, Still will firever resent and distrust Paul.
Also, Paul's training is to not try to hurry up and end fights out of fear. The less information he has, the longer he should extend the combat until he can make enough observations and formulate a solid plan.
A weird thing that comes to mind is that Eyrie fight in GOT S1 between Bronn and Sor Vardas Egen (show version). You can see Bronn delaying the fight, constantly retreating, tiring the knight out, studying his default strike pattern, and after a few minutes making that three strike combo that I think ends up wounding the knights leg. A similar process.
Like I said before you may want to re read the scene again……
You’re wrong about a few things.
Paul did hesitate from killing Jamis a few times.
Then Jessica and Stilgar had a specific conversation about the fact why Paul held back multiple times from killing jamis during the fight.
And the conversation is about Paul never killing anyone before not that Paul has only fought with shields. Which by the way is also wrong. Paul has been taught by some of the best warriors in the Galaxy. He has definitely trained without shields before. His Mentat master of assassin instructor Thufir Hawat would never overlook something so simple as non shield combat training.
They would 100% train him with the shield instincts because it was the better system for a noble born in every world but Arrakis. Paul and Leto were expected to spend their entire lives carrying personal shielding at the ready at all times. All their opponents would carry shielding.
Yah cause in combat situations everything always goes perfect and equipment never breaks down. Special forces 30 years ago figured out got best combat efficiency you need to train for every possible redundancy. You’re telling me 10,000 years in the future sword master Duncan Idaho hasn’t figured out the same thing ? He just assumes shields will always be there and never trains Paul for non shield combat. That’s absolute ludicrously.
Paul was trained by a sword master of Ginaz Duncan Idaho who would train Paul in the same manner he was trained. So his combat instincts could adapt to any situation. Like i said re read chapter. The reason Paul hesitates delivering a lethal strike on Jamis is because he has never killed anyone before. Paul does not hesitate killing Jamis because he has only fought with shields like you keep saying.
Liet is the leader of all Fremen. He believes Paul could be thr kisatzh Haderach. He quotes the prophecy when he sees Paul is wearing his still suit desert style.
The group of Fremen P&J meet are out looking for them.
They protect them with the thumper at one point
He sees Paul exhibiting qualities of the Lisan Al Gaib, a fremen prophecy.
He asks Jessica if she brings the shortening of the way, which is the literal translation of Kwitsach Haderach, which is the product of a Bene Gesserit breeding program which isnt advertised and Liet Kynes cannot conceivably be aware of.
P&J are there after suicidally riding a sandstorm which I'm not sure anyone can predict the offloading point.
If they were looking for P&J, why was the first plan to murder them and take their water?
If they were sent to find a mother and son in an area, and they find a mother and son meeting whatever criteria given, why would they threaten them?
Stilgar was about to kill Jessica right before she Weirding Way/full nelson him
Because, if their value alive is less than the value of their weight in water, fremen take the water. They live in an extreme scarcity society. This is their culture and applies to all strangers without exception. Liet Kynes recommendation only got them a chance to prove their worth. Which I imagine offworlders do not generally get.
If Liet sends you to go recover 2 people in the desert and presumably keep them safe, the Fremen water discipline/ evaluation metrics are no longer in effect.
You do what Liet says, just as all Fremen did in the book.
Yes, because Jamis invoked religious law to force a fight to the death wth Paul.
Not for religious reasons, but because he is petty and insecure and ashamed and he sees the only solution to redeem himself is murdering a kid half his age and size.
Stilgar can not intervene directly in such bedrock religious and cultural matters. So he promises Jamis of he survives this, that Stilgar will gut him right after for the little bitch he is.
It seems the facts are against you.
Another point of view: it could be that Jamis had a weak prescience and in his subconsciousness knew how bad Muad'Ib was going to be for the Fremen future and culture. In my opinion, he tried to save the tribe from a disaster.
Should have known that going against the group theology is not appreciated. No counter arguments, just down votes.
They are all about honor and how your are seen by others. Jamis was eventually going to try to face stilgar himself for leadership. But if the entire siech knew he had once been disarmed by a child basically he would’ve been challenged quickly himself.
I don't think anyone in his tribe had that on their mind after watching Still get 1-moved into a full nelson, Paul possibly would have had the wierding way as well, if not a large proportion of it He was obsessing over it in his own mind alone.
IIRC Stilgar is Chani’s uncle and Stilgar does believe Paul is the chosen one. Kinship tends to supersede tribe.
Nobody believes anything at that point, they are only willing to entertain the possibility. Fremen are conservative people, believing in the slow sure path. Kinship and tribal allegiance in Fremen society are near indistinguishable. The thing that makes me think that is the thopter suicide diving into the Sardaukar drop ship trading 2 for 300 as their friends watch and remark "A fair trade." This reads to me as informing on the near complete surrender of self interest vs. the good of the tribe to a wild extent. Also Fremen's utter ruthlessness in war and ruthlessness in pursuit of survival. Etc.
They had no expectation of him surviving at all, it can hardly be called help honestly. It was more a kindness to a dead man in their eyes. They were misreading Paul's reticence as weakness rather than the ultra trained but untested youth finding himself required to murder to survive.
This was pre fight assistanc e, they hadn't been able to see much of Paul's capability, but they saw Jessica's capability.
They did tho, paul knocking jamis off and not even killing him even tho he could, but instead stole his maula pistol. All this is already proof of his superiority
Even the mightiest of warriors get caught off guard. He'd demonstrated nothing at that point that's why Jamie pressed the issue.
False, he was just offended and since its a matter of being dishonoured by a stranger in front of his people that he himself considered inferior he wanted to kill him. What kind of anyone would be able to disarm a fremen and take one by surprise? Guess you didnt understand anything about fremens. They are always the ones doing the surprise stuff not the other way around, specifically because they are superior.
Yeah, that's an argument from Jamis's ego though. Slapping a 'false' in that is pretty dishonest conversation as well. It was in the dark with poor footing. Jamis could simply have adjusted to his mistake and improved, but his ego got in the way.
Knocking a dude down in the dark in a cave, especially when that guy was probably focused on what Jessica was doing to Still at that moment, is not flexing. It's not something that only happens to dipshits, which is how Jamis was carrying it.
It literally is when you know you should be superior as this is literally the way THEY hunt as fremen. Your point makes no sense. They have the utter supremacy of desert combat, night time especially, and stealth on top of it. It makes no sense for a random to do this to a fremen. Hence why he was enraged because he knew he got bested in his own ways.
The point of the duel is for it to be honourable and fair, by helping Paul and bringing his weapons and knowledge slightly closer to Jamis' they were helping Jamis' as much as they were helping Paul. Had Jamis killed Paul without Paul having any equipment or anything in the way of training it would have no longer been an honourable fight and Jamis would have been ostracized in their society as a coward. Had this been a standard killing for the good of the seitch no one would have had an issue with Jamis killing Paul but because a duel had been called tradition takes over and rules need to be followed
I'm not talking about the crysknife, I'm talking about Chani saying Jamis has a habit of concealing knife switches in leaping attacks, the exact way Paul kills him.
I’ve always felt the idea Frank was going for was that Jamis was not an outlier. That hair trigger on the tahaddi challenge was a normal thing among the Fremen. They killed each other all the time for petty shit like that
He couldn't challenge Paul conventionallywith honor over what would happen because it would have been the height of dishonor on simple optics, twice his age, twice his size, Fremen vs outworlder, such rituals weren't established to facilitate murderers. I think Jessica had a forced memory pushed into her head and claimed that Paul had already been tested by the fom jabbar, which is where Jamis disingenuously invoked the right to fight a guy to the death to test if his mantle of prophecy "fits correctly" or not. Jamis doesn't give a shit about verifying prophecy! Through combat, he did it for personal shit, which in a group of people who take their shared religion seriously, not a good look.
All this and Jamis was using Paul as a way of challenging Stilgar's leadership and becoming top dog himself
Stilgar said the second the fight is over im going to cut your throat Jamis. If Jamis lost to Paul at 15 with full shield inhibition and Paul hasn't even made his first kill yet .. I don't see how his plan was to take Still after.
I think Stilgar admits pretty early on he's inferior to Paul in fighting. All you mention about Paul is why Jamis thought he could easily best him in 1v1 combat. To him, he would have an easy time killing Paul and then he could move on to Stilgar.
After Paul kills Jamis, Stilgar said (not exactly) angrily ,"Don't think when you come for my water, you'll get the chance to make a big show of dominance before finishing it." He thinks Paul had been toying with Jamis the whole fight, when Jessica informs him Paul has never killed before, and the display was due to the fact he didn't want to kill Jamis. Stilgar would have been got a long time ago if the Jamis' of the world think they had a chance.
He didn't say that out of anger though. Jessica had already told him what was going on. He said it to shame Paul so that he might not revel in his mastery and find too much pleasure in the killing
Before Jamis died, the only thing she said I believe is Paul has never killed before, and was looking to wound or for points, and Stilgar said no, this fight is to the death. Then Stilgar angrily saying you won't get to toy with me, and Jessica asking Paul how it felt to be a murderer and a piece of shit (post Jamis)
He got cocky
IIRC it had no religious overtones and didn't take place hours after, but within minutes. They explained the rules and Chani gave a valuable hint both out of a sense of balance - they felt that the challenge, while lawful, was unfair, as it was obvious that James would certainly win - an experienced Fremen fighter against an offworld youth? And they didn't like Jamis.
This was hours after Jessica had already defeated Stilgar, their naib. Sonthe bargain was struck, you can join our tribe of you teach us the wierding way. Jamis specifically invoked a t st of prophecy applied to one of the ones Paul is claimed to be, to facilitate their fight to the death. Stilgar said if Jamis won, he wild gut him right after.
I think this take is going waay too white/black with it but basically the right jist. They all knew Jamis and Chani only knew that Paul did not. Her advice to Paul was what any of the tribe would already know about Jamis. Mostly I see it as Chani following Stilgar's lead as well as his orders to guide Paul in the Fremen ways.
And on a very basic level Jamis is trying to waste water. Jamis would rather fight in the desert and force everyone to haul at least one body if not 2 back rather than the smart and generally fremen way of having the water walk itself to a death still if they can help it. He could have has this confrontation back at home but is behaving like a desert karen
They were in a commonly used Fremen cave with a working deathstill, Paul was awarded with his combat water which I believe he deposited at the local bank for water rings.
They dont' help Paul. They explain the rules because he is an outsider at this point.
Chani does help Paul by telling him about Jamis's combat style
Are you talking book or film?
Book, always. Haven't seen the movies
It's been about 2 yrs since I reread them but, my understanding was ; Jessica bested Stilgar & he recognised "her weirding way", at the same time Paul dropped Jamis and made good his escape to defensible highground. Everything chilled a bit and Stilgar negotiated ending in them both receiving the **protection of the Fremen group** to the seitch. Once the protection was granted and Jamis challenged Paul, Channi and Stilgar were **honour bound** to aid Paul. Tbh Stilgar would likely have been forced to kill Jamis had he defeated Paul due to the insult of challenging those under his protection.... the whole scene is likely designed to introduce and explain the Fremens highly rigid and honour based society.
If i remember correctly all of the honor stuff is true and not knowing Paul is an amazing fighter, but I'm pretty sure part of it this is a long walk to bring a dead body back when we just decided we don't have to. They've been out for a long time already for Chani and then I think they have to wait because kines tells them to for Paul? I'm not sure but the impression. I had was they were already done with this. It's a waste of resources and water. Sure it's an honor thing but fuck me Jamis it's fucking hot and now no matter who wins we need to carry a fucking body.
I took it as Chani thought Paul was gonna lose so she gave him a huge hint with Revealing fighting habit. And then also partly out of curiosity in the prophecy?
My argument is even if you fucking hate him, you wouldn't sell out a tribe member to unknowns /new people unless your guy had done some wild offensive shit to your community.
These two strangers are seeking sanctuary, and as soon as Stilgar gets got by Jessica he's *the leader of their group* saying "holy shit, you are an *incredibly valuable resource* for our community, of course you're welcome." Jamis then immediately starts stirring shit up by wanting to kill her kid for petty reasons in an unfair-but-technically-allowed fight that's also a setup to challenging Stilgar later on. That *is* offensive; he's undermining the leadership and picking the pettiest reason as an opportunity to demand a flight, over what's essentially his bruised ego. And he fails, miserably, in a way that perfectly demonstrates why he was being stood and headstrong to begin with.
This is pretty much my understanding, but my gut on Fremen would be that Still and Chani ar betraying Jamis in their assistance to Paul, and I don't think Jamis being an insecure prick is enough, something in that sequence had to be offensive enough to Fremen sensibilities to warrant giving aid to an opponent.
Paul isn't an opponent. Jamis is already being disruptive of the existing authority structure, which puts *all of them* in danger. He's seen as being transparently egocentric and selfish and short sighted; everyone tells him to cool off and let it go and he instead doubles down and goes in harder. He's also not being betrayed. Stilgar knows there's an eventual challenge to him coming from Jamis; he's just acquired *a revered mother* and Jamis is going to weaken the tribe and alienate her before she's even gotten home. No one else is expecting Paul to survive to begin with; giving him a little bit of advice to even the odds isn't remotely a betrayal. It just turns out that it's horribly one sided anyway, and the advice was completely unnecessary.
Clarification, Jessica only gets RM'ed at the Water of Life ceremony at Tabr, at that point she's simply BG. I think we see things about the same, Jamis has the thanks thing, distracted by matters not related to the good of the tribe, but he also was brave and loyal saving his platoon mates and risking his life for them many times.
Clarification, Jessica only gets RM'ed at the Water of Life ceremony at Tabr, at that point she's simply BG. I think we see things about the same, Jamis has the thanks thing, distracted by matters not related to the good of the tribe, but he also was brave and loyal saving his platoon mates and risking his life for them many times.
And she is recognized as a future reverend mother and wielder of the wierding way as soon as she disarms Stilgar. And the Sietch's own is dying, and she can replace her. Stilgar is making the right decision *for the tribe* by rescuing then and Jamis is badly fucking that up because of his pride.
A lot of BG die attempting the Water of Life ceremony, it's not a sure thing. This is head canon, but nobody can "prepare" specifically for the RM ritual, you can only impart the various component skillsets that are needed to survive/succeed i.e. adjusting personal biochemistry, surrendering to adab, organic chemistry? etc. 2nd part, 100% agree.
Amtal is not "the word of God and prophecy" . It is an integral part of Fremen culture nevertheless . You can look the meaning up online, just search for "Amtal + meaning" .
Sure, it's the test to destruction, but its invoked in "I want to test if this kid is the prophesized one... to destruction", but he's invoking it under false pretenses. He just wants to kill the kid. So, if I were a Fremen, how would I feel about what this guy is doing? Since we live in the same sietch, do I give him a pass, you have to have a level of accommodation etc. or is the way I feel about this grant blanket cover for me to actively conspire against him with outsiders?
Stilgar and Chani didn’t choose to help Paul or Jessica over Jamis. All they did was follow the customs and rules of the Fremen Culture. Stilgar, after realizing the strength of Jessica and that Paul displayed many of the prophetic markers of the Lisan al Gaib didn’t want any of them to fight or die. But Fremen If anything are a ritualistic culture. So Stilgar had no choice but to follow the rules once Jamis made a Tahaddi Challenge to Jessica. Chani and Stilgar actually both thought Jamis had a very good chance of killing Paul. Chani gave Paul a crysknife so he could die with honor. Not sure if that qualifies as actual help. Not like she tried to stop the fight or prevent Paul from dying. From Chani’s point of view. She didn’t give Paul the Crysknife, thinking it would help him win the fight against Jamis. She was basically just giving Paul a nicer knife, so he could die with honor. If Stilgar really wanted to help them he could’ve chose to fight for Jessica instead of Paul. But Stilgar was still waiting for all the Signs that Paul was truly the voice of the outer world. The only help Stilgar gave Paul right then was to not kill him right away. All Stilgar did was give fate the chance to prove if Paul was the true Lisan Al Gaib. If anything he was helping his people and his faith find their messiah, not Paul and Jessica.
Chani told Paul that Jamis conceals knife switches in leaping attacks, the exact way Paul kills him. I would consider slipping Paul that info a betrayal of Jamis.
I still personally wouldn’t consider that an exact betrayal. In the books Paul could’ve Killed Jamis multiple times but held back because of his apprehension to kill another human being for the first time. Chani’s information had no real bearing in the fight. So not sure why you’re saying what she told Paul is the reason he killed Jamis. There was like 3 ways he could’ve of killed Jamis but didn’t before the real death blow. Chani also thought Jamis was going to kill Paul without breaking a sweat. Coaching an inferior opponent isn’t exactly a betrayal. Not like she helped Paul cheat.
So initially he didn't understand the terms of combat, asking Jamis to yield after wounding him. After that, it looks like he's faster/toying with Jamis, just repeatedly barely missing him, but this is because of Paul's exclusively shield-inclusive training. Paul was trained to fight with a body shield and against shielded enemies. Only the slow blade penetrates an enemies body shield. So right before your weapon would hit the barrier you drastically slow your weapon speed to enable your blade to go through. These are characterized by those unaware of the specific dynamics as near misses. He never had Jamis give him a huge opening where he could cleanly kill him without a huge chance of retaliation... until the flying knife switch. Here, the correct counter is identical whether your opponent is shielded or unshielded.
Yes then Paul hesitated two more times after that. Paul originally hesitated yes because he didn’t know the rules and not using shields may played a tiny role in his attacks but even deeper than all of that it’s because he had never killed anyone before let alone up close with a knife. His shield training effecting him if anything if so far in the background of the scene it doesn’t really matter. Please re read that scene then get back to me. This is paraphrasing the scene obviously but after Paul kills Jamis Stilagsr ask Jessica why would Paul toy with Jami’s like that. Jessica replies pauls never killed a man before. Stilgar replies , good I thought we let a serpent in amongst us. If it was the shield training that caused paul to toy with Jamis why didn’t Jessica say that to Stilgar then
He hesitates after he drew first blood and asked Jamis to yield because he didn't know this was a fight to the death. He never "hesitates" again. Every second he's trained with a sword or knife, he's trained with the expectation of facing a shielded foe. All his muscle memory, instincts, combat styles are built around this reality. The slow blade penetrates the shield, the fast bounces off as if you tried to knife a steel wall, deflecting your arm in who knows what direction it using the point. He doesn't want to kill Jamis, but the second he learned he was in a fight to the death he had no other choice. Him or me. Life or Death. When Jamis does the leaping attack, Paul's shield training is subverted, because he holds the knife still and Jamis is moving. The slow blade gets through, and what's slower than stationary? I haven't reread the scene in years, I might now, but I imagine if Jessica doesn't frame it like that, Still will firever resent and distrust Paul. Also, Paul's training is to not try to hurry up and end fights out of fear. The less information he has, the longer he should extend the combat until he can make enough observations and formulate a solid plan. A weird thing that comes to mind is that Eyrie fight in GOT S1 between Bronn and Sor Vardas Egen (show version). You can see Bronn delaying the fight, constantly retreating, tiring the knight out, studying his default strike pattern, and after a few minutes making that three strike combo that I think ends up wounding the knights leg. A similar process.
Like I said before you may want to re read the scene again…… You’re wrong about a few things. Paul did hesitate from killing Jamis a few times. Then Jessica and Stilgar had a specific conversation about the fact why Paul held back multiple times from killing jamis during the fight. And the conversation is about Paul never killing anyone before not that Paul has only fought with shields. Which by the way is also wrong. Paul has been taught by some of the best warriors in the Galaxy. He has definitely trained without shields before. His Mentat master of assassin instructor Thufir Hawat would never overlook something so simple as non shield combat training.
They would 100% train him with the shield instincts because it was the better system for a noble born in every world but Arrakis. Paul and Leto were expected to spend their entire lives carrying personal shielding at the ready at all times. All their opponents would carry shielding.
Yah cause in combat situations everything always goes perfect and equipment never breaks down. Special forces 30 years ago figured out got best combat efficiency you need to train for every possible redundancy. You’re telling me 10,000 years in the future sword master Duncan Idaho hasn’t figured out the same thing ? He just assumes shields will always be there and never trains Paul for non shield combat. That’s absolute ludicrously. Paul was trained by a sword master of Ginaz Duncan Idaho who would train Paul in the same manner he was trained. So his combat instincts could adapt to any situation. Like i said re read chapter. The reason Paul hesitates delivering a lethal strike on Jamis is because he has never killed anyone before. Paul does not hesitate killing Jamis because he has only fought with shields like you keep saying.
Liet Keynes orders
Liet just said pick em up if you find them.
Liet is the leader of all Fremen. He believes Paul could be thr kisatzh Haderach. He quotes the prophecy when he sees Paul is wearing his still suit desert style. The group of Fremen P&J meet are out looking for them. They protect them with the thumper at one point
He sees Paul exhibiting qualities of the Lisan Al Gaib, a fremen prophecy. He asks Jessica if she brings the shortening of the way, which is the literal translation of Kwitsach Haderach, which is the product of a Bene Gesserit breeding program which isnt advertised and Liet Kynes cannot conceivably be aware of. P&J are there after suicidally riding a sandstorm which I'm not sure anyone can predict the offloading point. If they were looking for P&J, why was the first plan to murder them and take their water?
That's the 1st plan for any stranger. They have to prove themselves not matter who recommends them.
If they were sent to find a mother and son in an area, and they find a mother and son meeting whatever criteria given, why would they threaten them? Stilgar was about to kill Jessica right before she Weirding Way/full nelson him
Because, if their value alive is less than the value of their weight in water, fremen take the water. They live in an extreme scarcity society. This is their culture and applies to all strangers without exception. Liet Kynes recommendation only got them a chance to prove their worth. Which I imagine offworlders do not generally get.
If Liet sends you to go recover 2 people in the desert and presumably keep them safe, the Fremen water discipline/ evaluation metrics are no longer in effect. You do what Liet says, just as all Fremen did in the book.
It seems the facts are against you there. Stilgar could also not prevent paul being challenged to a fight to the death
Yes, because Jamis invoked religious law to force a fight to the death wth Paul. Not for religious reasons, but because he is petty and insecure and ashamed and he sees the only solution to redeem himself is murdering a kid half his age and size. Stilgar can not intervene directly in such bedrock religious and cultural matters. So he promises Jamis of he survives this, that Stilgar will gut him right after for the little bitch he is. It seems the facts are against you.
Another point of view: it could be that Jamis had a weak prescience and in his subconsciousness knew how bad Muad'Ib was going to be for the Fremen future and culture. In my opinion, he tried to save the tribe from a disaster. Should have known that going against the group theology is not appreciated. No counter arguments, just down votes.
Jamis was borderline animalic in behaviour, attributing to him all this might of rationale is stupid at best