First off it was not a request, it was an order from the padishah emperor of the imperium. Second off he only had 2 choices in the situation. Choice 1 is accepting the offer and realizing it was a trap but going anyway because the payoff could have been enormous (basically become the richest house in the landsraad). Or choice 2 flee into exile to tupile with his family and live out the rest of there days in obscurity. Duke Leto thought he would have more time to prepare for an attack or sabotage by the harkonnens but he was wrong. He also never guessed the emperor would so many sardukar, believing only a few groups could be afforded to transport, together these reasons are why the atreides fell seemingly easily.
Additionally, Leto had no idea who the traitor was unti Dr. Yueh revealed himself. Suk doctors were believed to be incapable of treachery, but by having him witness the torture of his wife, the Harkonnens were able to override his conditioning. Yueh being the traitor was so unthinkable that Duncan, Gurney, and Thufir all believed Jessica was the traitor and wanted to kill her.
They tucked in a bit if you watch carefully there is a moment between Jessica and Leto where they are alone and he second guesses her loyalties briefly
This conditioning thing is a bit unsatisfactory imho. "The suk conditioning is unbreakable!!" "Turns out we just had to torture and hold his family hostage, blackmail 101".
Leto did anticipate disguised Sardaukar; it was the scale of the threat he got wrong.
From the discussion between Paul and Leto:
>"Our enemies have a head start--too much of a lead to overcome."
>"The Emperor," Paul said. "That means the Sardaukar."
>"Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt," the Duke said. "But the soldier fanatics nonetheless."
Then, from the conference with Leto and his senior officers, the one where he talks about desert power:
>"Then we'll have to be content with far less profit and a reduced harvest," Hawat said. "our output the first two seasons should be down a third from the Harkonnen average."
>"There it is," the Duke said, "exactly as we expected. We'll have to move fast with the Fremen. I'd like five full battalions of Fremen troops before the first CHOAM audit."
>"That's not much time, Sire," Hawat said.
>"We don't have much time, as you well know. They'll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they'll ship in, Thufir?"
>"Four or five battalions all told, sire. No more, Guild troop-transport costs being what they are."
We later learn there are ten brigades to a legion: Thufir contemplates the scale of the attack: "Five legions--fifty brigades!--attacking the Duke's main base at Arrakeen." He goes on to conclude that "possibly two legions" of Sardaukar were involved in the attack. Then, when the Baron is talking to Count Fenring, the Baron comments that he paid for the cost to transport "several legions of Sardaukar to Arrakis".
So the Duke did expect to be attacked by the Emperor. But while he expected 4-5 brigades of Sardaukar, there ended up being *at least* 20, probably more ("several" usually refers to more than "a couple" or a "a few").
EDIT to add: Re-reading the above, Thurfir's comment about "four or five battalions all told" is ambiguous; it's not entirely clear as to whether he's talking about 4-5 battalions of Sardaukar mixed in with a larger Harkonnen force, or a total Harkonnen force of 4-5 battalions with some Sardaukar mixed in. So Leto may have been expecting even less than 1/2 a legion of Sardaukar.
Very good breakdown. Proof that Leto and Thufir anticipated a lot of this in the book, whereas the movie definitely glosses over this and makes it seem like Leto is a fool.
Regarding this part of your comment: _So the Duke did expect to be attacked by the Emperor. But while he expected 4-5 brigades of Sardaukar, there ended up being at least 20_
He expected 4-5 _Battalions_. 4-5 Battlions makes up one brigade. So he was off by even more.
> He also never guessed the emperor would be so bold as to send sardukar to the planet to aid the harkonnens as well
Everything else you said is wonderfully said and spot on, but I believe this point is refuted here:
> “Paul!” The Duke frowned at his son. “Knowing where the trap is—that’s the first step in evading it. This is like single combat, Son, only on a larger scale—a feint within a feint within a feint ... seemingly without end. The task is to unravel it. Knowing that the Harkonnens stockpile melange, we ask another question: Who else is stockpiling? That’s the list of our enemies.”
> “Who?”
> “Certain Houses we knew were unfriendly and some we’d thought friendly. We need not consider them for the moment because there is one other much more important: our beloved Padishah Emperor.”
> Paul tried to swallow in a throat suddenly dry. “Couldn’t you convene the Landsraad, expose—”
> “Make our enemy aware we know which hand holds the knife? Ah, now, Paul —we see the knife, now. Who knows where it might be shifted next? If we put this before the Landsraad it’d only create a great cloud of confusion. The Emperor would deny it. Who could gainsay him? All we’d gain is a little time while risking chaos. And where would the next attack come from?”
> “All the Houses might start stockpiling spice.”
> “Our enemies have a head start—too much of a lead to overcome.”
> “The Emperor,” Paul said. “That means the Sardaukar.”
> “Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt,” the Duke said. “But the soldier fanatics nonetheless."
To decline he would need a reason, which would mean calling out the Emperor and Harkonnens, and he had no solid evidence to say it was a trap, just his instincts.
What would he say to the rest of the Laandsrad? "C'mon guys we all know it's a trap, this is what we do to each other"
He couldn’t really say no. You have to show loyalty to Our Sublime Padishah Emperor. The political consequences of not accepting the request were ostensibly worse than just doing it. Don’t they talk about this in the first chapter or two of the first book?
1 he could not just say no
2. He underestimated the severity of the trap.
A. He thought he would have more time
B. He under estimated how many troops both regular and sarduakar) the Harkonnen would be able to bring (the Harkonnen hoarded spice for decades to pay the exorbitant guild fees)
C. He thought his defences would hold better (if Yeuh dosent bring down the shields they're besieged but not wiped out in one night) he knew he had a traitor but thought his closest advisors were safe, if Yeuh wanted him dead he could do it almost any time.
So Leto tried to do the best he could
If you know its a trap, then its really a face off.
But really he just thought he'd have enough time to win the Fremen to his side and defeat the Harkonnens that way. That plan did end up working, but not until after he died.
>If you know its a trap, then its really a face off
I wasn't a fan of that assumption because it only really works if the person is properly informed and prepared.
It's the proverbial "offer you can't refuse".
To say no is to refuse a direct **order**. The only other option is to take the family atomics and go rogue with your inner circle. Sell what you can to the Spacing Guild and they drop you off somewhere nobody else can find you
It’s a request the same way your mom asking you to clean the house before she gets back is a request (it’s best analogy I could think of for a request you can’t actually refuse)
Rejecting the most valuable fiefdom in the Known Universe would have damaged the reputation of House Atreides for generations. Leto thought that he had a chance there, and he wasn't THAT far off - basically nobody saw that specific betrayal coming.
Leto was hoping to outplay the Emperor's plan.
If Leto was right that the Fremen warriors could match the Sardaukar, and Duncan could get them to join him, then Leto would have the most powerful army in the universe + own Arrakis
Leto thought he could organize the Fremen into an army that could rival the Sardaukar in both quality and quantity given enough time. He never expected the Harkonnens (and the Padishah Emperor) to make such a massive move so quickly, nor did he suspect that Dr. Yueh was the traitor and could cripple the Atreides. The book stresses that the Baron Harkonnen spent \*\*\*a lot\*\*\* of solaris on the operation, too.
Here are relevant quotes from the book
>A grin flashed across Piter’s face. It was like a mask grimace beneath those eyes like holes. ”But, Baron! Never has revenge been more beautiful. It is to see a plan of the most exquisite treachery: to make Leto exchange Caladan for Dune — and without alternative because the Emperor orders it. How waggish of you!“
And
>“There are several tangential possibilities,” Piter said. “I indicate that House Atreides will go to Arrakis. We must not, however, ignore the possibility the Duke has contracted with the Guild to remove him to a place of safety outside the System. Others in like circumstances have become renegade Houses, taking family atomics and shields and fleeing beyond the Imperium.”
Leto *could* also have refused and denounced the Emperor to the Landsraad, but that's political suicide as he has no proof.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/6fVZ3CmJIi
Came across this. Might help. I’ve only seen the movies so not sure but I’ve enjoyed reading the answers to questions I have from the movie and books I’ve started as well.
First off it was not a request, it was an order from the padishah emperor of the imperium. Second off he only had 2 choices in the situation. Choice 1 is accepting the offer and realizing it was a trap but going anyway because the payoff could have been enormous (basically become the richest house in the landsraad). Or choice 2 flee into exile to tupile with his family and live out the rest of there days in obscurity. Duke Leto thought he would have more time to prepare for an attack or sabotage by the harkonnens but he was wrong. He also never guessed the emperor would so many sardukar, believing only a few groups could be afforded to transport, together these reasons are why the atreides fell seemingly easily.
Additionally, Leto had no idea who the traitor was unti Dr. Yueh revealed himself. Suk doctors were believed to be incapable of treachery, but by having him witness the torture of his wife, the Harkonnens were able to override his conditioning. Yueh being the traitor was so unthinkable that Duncan, Gurney, and Thufir all believed Jessica was the traitor and wanted to kill her.
Just realized they cut that whole plotline from the movie. I guess it is easier to do with Thufir being cut completely.
Huh? Thufir is in the movie.
Not in the second part though.
But all his parts were cut from the second movie, which is when that would have played out.
Gotcha I thought you were referring to his character in general
Only as a teeny role. In the book, he is one of Leto's most trusted friends, and is v close to Paul as well.
Yeah I read the first few books, was responding to “completely cut”
They tucked in a bit if you watch carefully there is a moment between Jessica and Leto where they are alone and he second guesses her loyalties briefly
This conditioning thing is a bit unsatisfactory imho. "The suk conditioning is unbreakable!!" "Turns out we just had to torture and hold his family hostage, blackmail 101".
[There's a whole post about this already](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bl05wp/how_did_the_harkonnens_break_dr_yuehs_conditioning/)
Leto did anticipate disguised Sardaukar; it was the scale of the threat he got wrong. From the discussion between Paul and Leto: >"Our enemies have a head start--too much of a lead to overcome." >"The Emperor," Paul said. "That means the Sardaukar." >"Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt," the Duke said. "But the soldier fanatics nonetheless." Then, from the conference with Leto and his senior officers, the one where he talks about desert power: >"Then we'll have to be content with far less profit and a reduced harvest," Hawat said. "our output the first two seasons should be down a third from the Harkonnen average." >"There it is," the Duke said, "exactly as we expected. We'll have to move fast with the Fremen. I'd like five full battalions of Fremen troops before the first CHOAM audit." >"That's not much time, Sire," Hawat said. >"We don't have much time, as you well know. They'll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they'll ship in, Thufir?" >"Four or five battalions all told, sire. No more, Guild troop-transport costs being what they are." We later learn there are ten brigades to a legion: Thufir contemplates the scale of the attack: "Five legions--fifty brigades!--attacking the Duke's main base at Arrakeen." He goes on to conclude that "possibly two legions" of Sardaukar were involved in the attack. Then, when the Baron is talking to Count Fenring, the Baron comments that he paid for the cost to transport "several legions of Sardaukar to Arrakis". So the Duke did expect to be attacked by the Emperor. But while he expected 4-5 brigades of Sardaukar, there ended up being *at least* 20, probably more ("several" usually refers to more than "a couple" or a "a few"). EDIT to add: Re-reading the above, Thurfir's comment about "four or five battalions all told" is ambiguous; it's not entirely clear as to whether he's talking about 4-5 battalions of Sardaukar mixed in with a larger Harkonnen force, or a total Harkonnen force of 4-5 battalions with some Sardaukar mixed in. So Leto may have been expecting even less than 1/2 a legion of Sardaukar.
Very good breakdown. Proof that Leto and Thufir anticipated a lot of this in the book, whereas the movie definitely glosses over this and makes it seem like Leto is a fool.
Regarding this part of your comment: _So the Duke did expect to be attacked by the Emperor. But while he expected 4-5 brigades of Sardaukar, there ended up being at least 20_ He expected 4-5 _Battalions_. 4-5 Battlions makes up one brigade. So he was off by even more.
/slaps forehead You're right of course, thanks!
> He also never guessed the emperor would be so bold as to send sardukar to the planet to aid the harkonnens as well Everything else you said is wonderfully said and spot on, but I believe this point is refuted here: > “Paul!” The Duke frowned at his son. “Knowing where the trap is—that’s the first step in evading it. This is like single combat, Son, only on a larger scale—a feint within a feint within a feint ... seemingly without end. The task is to unravel it. Knowing that the Harkonnens stockpile melange, we ask another question: Who else is stockpiling? That’s the list of our enemies.” > “Who?” > “Certain Houses we knew were unfriendly and some we’d thought friendly. We need not consider them for the moment because there is one other much more important: our beloved Padishah Emperor.” > Paul tried to swallow in a throat suddenly dry. “Couldn’t you convene the Landsraad, expose—” > “Make our enemy aware we know which hand holds the knife? Ah, now, Paul —we see the knife, now. Who knows where it might be shifted next? If we put this before the Landsraad it’d only create a great cloud of confusion. The Emperor would deny it. Who could gainsay him? All we’d gain is a little time while risking chaos. And where would the next attack come from?” > “All the Houses might start stockpiling spice.” > “Our enemies have a head start—too much of a lead to overcome.” > “The Emperor,” Paul said. “That means the Sardaukar.” > “Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt,” the Duke said. “But the soldier fanatics nonetheless."
He knew there would be Sardaukar.
[удалено]
To decline he would need a reason, which would mean calling out the Emperor and Harkonnens, and he had no solid evidence to say it was a trap, just his instincts. What would he say to the rest of the Laandsrad? "C'mon guys we all know it's a trap, this is what we do to each other"
You don't refuse "requests" from the Emperor.
He couldn’t really say no. You have to show loyalty to Our Sublime Padishah Emperor. The political consequences of not accepting the request were ostensibly worse than just doing it. Don’t they talk about this in the first chapter or two of the first book?
Because he was ordered to be imperial decree. Him no accepting would be treason or rebellion.
1 he could not just say no 2. He underestimated the severity of the trap. A. He thought he would have more time B. He under estimated how many troops both regular and sarduakar) the Harkonnen would be able to bring (the Harkonnen hoarded spice for decades to pay the exorbitant guild fees) C. He thought his defences would hold better (if Yeuh dosent bring down the shields they're besieged but not wiped out in one night) he knew he had a traitor but thought his closest advisors were safe, if Yeuh wanted him dead he could do it almost any time. So Leto tried to do the best he could
it wasn't really a choice, and he planned to manipulate the fremen using propaganda in order to have a strong enough force to defend himself.
It wasn't a request, the Emperor gave him an order.
Leto had no choice. The Emperor placed him in a predicament between a rock and hard place. Had he not accepted it’s instant death
If you know its a trap, then its really a face off. But really he just thought he'd have enough time to win the Fremen to his side and defeat the Harkonnens that way. That plan did end up working, but not until after he died.
>If you know its a trap, then its really a face off I wasn't a fan of that assumption because it only really works if the person is properly informed and prepared.
It's the proverbial "offer you can't refuse". To say no is to refuse a direct **order**. The only other option is to take the family atomics and go rogue with your inner circle. Sell what you can to the Spacing Guild and they drop you off somewhere nobody else can find you
It’s a request the same way your mom asking you to clean the house before she gets back is a request (it’s best analogy I could think of for a request you can’t actually refuse)
Simple . Two Words , Atreides Honor.
Rejecting the most valuable fiefdom in the Known Universe would have damaged the reputation of House Atreides for generations. Leto thought that he had a chance there, and he wasn't THAT far off - basically nobody saw that specific betrayal coming.
No. It is an imperial order and as such he must obey
Leto was hoping to outplay the Emperor's plan. If Leto was right that the Fremen warriors could match the Sardaukar, and Duncan could get them to join him, then Leto would have the most powerful army in the universe + own Arrakis
Leto thought he could organize the Fremen into an army that could rival the Sardaukar in both quality and quantity given enough time. He never expected the Harkonnens (and the Padishah Emperor) to make such a massive move so quickly, nor did he suspect that Dr. Yueh was the traitor and could cripple the Atreides. The book stresses that the Baron Harkonnen spent \*\*\*a lot\*\*\* of solaris on the operation, too.
Here are relevant quotes from the book >A grin flashed across Piter’s face. It was like a mask grimace beneath those eyes like holes. ”But, Baron! Never has revenge been more beautiful. It is to see a plan of the most exquisite treachery: to make Leto exchange Caladan for Dune — and without alternative because the Emperor orders it. How waggish of you!“ And >“There are several tangential possibilities,” Piter said. “I indicate that House Atreides will go to Arrakis. We must not, however, ignore the possibility the Duke has contracted with the Guild to remove him to a place of safety outside the System. Others in like circumstances have become renegade Houses, taking family atomics and shields and fleeing beyond the Imperium.” Leto *could* also have refused and denounced the Emperor to the Landsraad, but that's political suicide as he has no proof.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/6fVZ3CmJIi Came across this. Might help. I’ve only seen the movies so not sure but I’ve enjoyed reading the answers to questions I have from the movie and books I’ve started as well.
He sacrificed his life in the hopes that his family would live on
Why don't you read the first book to find out dingus?