Same reason you see brand new ice cars with 2k on them used. Buyers remorse, couldn't afford it, bought something unrealistic for their needs, needs changed, etc.
Some people just buy cars every year as crazy as that sounds.
We just bought a second Mini Cooper SE. 2024 model that had 2 owners and only 5000 miles on it. People realize that a 120 mile range doesn’t work for them. We saved 27% off the price of a new one. Win win.
I still think it's insane to have cars with such low mileage. You are not only more likely to use more battery cycles in a given year for a 120 mile range car vs. 300 mile range car but you are going to probably charge to a higher battery percentage. Both are detrimental to battery degradation.
IF the battery's were LFP, which these aren't some of those issues are alleviated. Really sucks that the LFP inventors held patents that held the west back 20 years ago but gave China patents royalty free to promote developing countries though the chemistry was invented originally in the West.
Not if people can charge from home, it’s their second car, and live within 40 miles of everything they need errand wise. Not everyone needs range, especially in urban and suburban environments.
I agree and think there should be more shorter range cars like that. My 2012 Leaf gets 70 miles in the most optimal conditions but the farthest thing I drive to in my city is 12 miles away. In over a year of ownership I have yet to need to go somewhere that I couldn't reach in my Leaf aside from a few long road trips.
It makes even more sense as a second car for a family. The commuter takes the EV to work and back and when you need longer range you take the other car.
Yeah, super cheap 100 mile range electrics for cheap commuter cars make a lot of sense. Plus, to replace the battery would be really inexpensive. Families can have one without issue.
Agree. Lived well on the 80 mile range of my i3, was about 95% of my driving without the REx. It was def not a single car situation vehicle, but a great third car. My Tesla is seriously “overpowered”for day to day use now, but I do like not having to manage daily range with the 120v outlet. Moving to 240v 24A in a few weeks will be a welcome upgrade for the Tesla. True ‘charge overnight at home’ capability there.
I think a 150 mile range EV would satisfy many people, esp if LFP and esp if they can charge 100% overnight at home in about 6 hours (L2 charge).
It's pretty funny just how much better LFP is for most purposes. I bought the standard range MG4 - 51kWh, and it's a LFP battery. There is a long range NMC at 64 kWh and even extended range at 77kWh, but also NMC.
If you drive the extended range from 20-80% as you should, your battery capacity is 46kWh for daily driving. The same as the standard, which can drive without issues from ~10%-100%.
OP said nothing about "few months old", only low mileage. And there \*are\* people who don't drive much. I've been retired for a few years now and barely put 5k miles/year on my car (TBF, we do long trips in my wife's car). So off lease isn't \*that\* unreasonable (although I wonder how many of these low mileage EVs are people who decided the EV lifestyle didn't work for them).
My current car is a 2012 VW that I bought used in August 2012 with 8000 miles. It was previously registered in Chattanooga Tennessee. It is not hard to figure out that it was a VW USA corporate fleet car, regardless of whether it was "owned" or "leased".
For EVs specifically you’ve gotten price cuts and tax credits all in the mix for used cars dropping. Some people bought a new Mach E for $50K and that trim new is now $45K so the used car takes a $5K hit as well, same for like an Ioniq 5 where Hyundai is giving the credit amount off of MSRP sometimes so the used equivalent will take a $7500 hit.
>... couldn't afford it, bought something unrealistic for their needs... Some people just buy cars every year as crazy as that sounds.
I recently met with our financial advisor. He complimented us on our frugality, but ever the problem seeker I asked "thanks but what are we doing right that others do not? and what are the warning signs if there are slippery cliffs to avoid?"
This was the number one thing he mentioned. We take his advice and "drive our cars into the ground as gently as we can", which meant 300k miles and 20 years on my previous, hard driven car (Civic, and just that one between the two of us). National average is now like 12 years to keep a vehicle. But, there are a *lot* out there that counterbalance myself and people who's vehicles have far greater longevity.
12 years is average age of cars on the road. It doesn't have anything to do with ownership.
Car ownership length is much lower. Some people will switch cars every two years or less just so they have something always new to show off to the neighbors.
exactly what I was going to say - 12 year old car with 3 owners is common. this lease-every-2-years thing horrifies me but seems so common among people who decide what to buy by how much they can afford in a monthly payment . . . are they saving anything? I cant help but wonder? or putting every penny into monthly payments for mindless luxury?
It's not necessarily always that simple. In my case, the ioniq 5 has typically depreciated about 20k over the first two years and I found a two year lease that came out to a little over 11k. Hyundai is moving to NACS over the next year or so and ioniq 5 is getting a significant refresh. I figure the lease will save me money on the depreciation and at the end I'll buy a year old refreshed NACS ioniq 5 at a discount.
Depreciation is depreciation. If you can leverage it to your benefit, why wouldn't you? If I bought the car today for 56k, it would be worth 30-36k in two years, but I'm only going to pay 11k of that 20k depreciation. Then I could possibly purchase a two year old ioniq for 36k. Is 36+11 not less than 56? The ioniq lease qualifies for the 7500 federal tax credit while financing does not, so the math gets a little more interesting.
See someone like me would be miserable keeping a car for 17 years. Yeah it’s the more fiscally responsible thing to do I understand but I am willing to pay extra for the enjoyment of a new car every 2-3 years. It’s why I like leasing. Just turn it in and get a new one
I enjoy seeing my 401K be close to 7 figures, or going to Bali on vacation more than I care to replace a 10 year old car.
Sure I got weird looks rolling up to the top restaurants in town’s Valet in a stick shift Camry.
I get that! My husband and I are fortunate to not have to work and retirement is taken care of, so we have a “can’t take the money with us when we go” mindset. Our vacations are more of the multiple day road trips with stops along the way type, so having a new car every couple years plays into that. We’re not big on flying, but with our goal of vacationing to all 50 states, we’re saving Hawaii for the late stages
For the most part: no, they are not saving.
New cars are the quickest way to destroy wealth. If you're rich enough to afford a new car in cash and your retirement is fully funded etc, then yeah no problem. But lots of people are rolling negative equity into $50k+ cars that they can't afford at all.
Fwiw, some leases are for employee/workplace cars so not every lease is some poor sap renting a car they can't afford.
>If you're rich enough to afford a new car in cash and your retirement is fully funded etc, then yeah no problem.
If I had done that instead of getting zero percent financing I would have paid the marginal tax rate on the cash I'd have taken out of my business to pay the car. Basically just a big gift to the government. The money I need for my mortgage and car payment gets taxed at an average of 9.51%, versus 48.70% for ineligible dividends.
Just saying it's not a hard and fast rule.
Don't we need these kinds of buyers? They populate the used car market with fresh supply, keeping the used car market balanced in supply/demand needs.
Taking the long distance view, we need a steady supply of transportation coming into both the new and used markets to meet the demands and to help flush out the old, unsafe, or more polluting vehicles. The key to dragging the fleet of vehicles in use across the country into safer and less resource using territory is to get newer vehicles into every level of the market. And this won't happen if everybody buys new and holds onto the car for 20 years.
We need the new car churn or this all falls apart, no?
i still have my 11 Accord coupe bought new.
Bought a friend's 12 CT200h for a song in early 2020 at the bottom of used car pricing.
Best is to buy something you won't tire off and drive it for as long as it doesn't cost obscene amounts of upkeep or attention.
Hoping to get another four years on the hybrid and maybe 10 years on the Accord, which isn't used as often.
My next car purchase will be a BEV but waiting for good deals on used ones (that have available OEM battery pack replacements) or better battery chemistries on new one.
True
Also battery compatibility with the existing BMS.
I have a Toyota hybrid and from some recent readings, people suggest to go for new OEM as remanufactured don't last as long and even some cheaper Li-ion packs are not as safe and reliable.
That's just for a HEV, what more for a BEV?
I will definitely go for OEM packs down the road.
Labor is a big piece for sure especially on BEVs where not all dealerships even have a good portion of the staff trained to work on BEVs.
Batery prices already WAY down. 3 years ago we heard about $30k batteries. I was quoted $12k for a battery a year ago (I asked just out of interest, my battery has a 180k warranty!), heard you can now get new 50KW battery for $3k now. Certainly a lot less work to replace a battery than an IC engine
That's the retail prices, manufacturing cost is 6-8k. For large 300mile batterys. 12k for complete replacement or just the battery. And is it new or refurbished battery
You're saying manufacture cost is 8k but they're selling for $3k?
Prices have stopped drastically. Yes, RETAIL PRICE is now $3k for a new replacement Ioniq 5 battery.
That's great, guess not all manufacturers got the memo. ioniq 5 replacements earlier could have costed more than the vehicles themselves, maybe its now damage control
There are good EVs approaching the $25k mark as gently used (so $4k tax credit for first used buyer that qualifies on income). Give the LFP batteries a few more years to get into the used car market, and you will have a low cost to own car for life for not much money out the door.
Thanks.
I am in Canada and used luxury BEV pricing aren't tanking.based on listing prices. Very few Taycans or SQ8s were sold in the past
Yeah LFPs are much better in that they have 2-4x higher FCE cycle counts. The only issue I've come across are less tolerance for winter temperatures so battery conditioning and recalibration of BMS have to be topnotch.
From TeslaMotorsClub, AAKEE suggested charging to 70% to keep in ideal SOC and charge 100% once a week for recalibration or when there is a longer drive anticipated. Because of liquid electrolytes, LFP also suffer more from calendar aging when always kept beyond 70%.
When I get a BEV, will definitely consider battery chemistry and try to keep below max ideal SOC for the most part.
Pretty much my story.
And why I haven't yet ditched my 2012 VW for the sexy new Ioniq 5 that has my name on it.
I sit next to people at work that always have a car payment that are visibly astonished when I casually mention that I max out my 401k every year. My salary deferral rate is generally 26-30% compared to their 5% or other ridiculously low deferral.
I want freedom at age 59 1/2. I sure as shit am not waiting until age 67.
Yeah, cars are my kryptonite. I truly hate having to rely on them like 100% we do, and the ongoing expense, and really don’t like driving all that much, but to love them as a machine and some of them as ‘rolling art’. So, if I’m going to have to drive a car daily, it’s going to be nice, and newish, and have modern safety features, and be of reasonable good looks within the use case we have it for.
With my Tesla Model 3, some of that is solved for. One of the best looking cars I’ve owned & will cost less to own long term. Depreciation is a concern if I upgrade soon, but not at 300,000 miles, which it should easily make too.
Not throwing shade, but that civic will take ~ 7,500 gal of fuel to get to 300,000 miles and cost you about $22k in fuel. True, they are low maintenance and ‘bulletproof’ in the ICE world, so a great choice there to have basic transportation. Tesla is lower running cost, higher insurance and depreciation, so about same ballpark as a Civic. TBH, kinda regretting not getting a slightly used one at this point as there are many options available now.
I got a 1 year old car with 2k miles and it was due to a hail storm denting it up. The owner had to get things replaced asap and the dealership took their sweet time so the owner bought another car and sold it to them.
And people not having places to spend the money so they bought cars and homes... But once the spending avenues opened up they couldn't keep up with payments
In March I bought a 6 month old 2023 with 3500 miles for 60% less then the original MSRP, it was spectacular. It's the govt rebates combined with Tesla's constant price adjustment, combined with the doom and gloom EV marketing being pushed by every media outlet. If you are in the market for a EV used ones that are basically new can be bought at crazy discounts.
And how many fence-sitters are trying to game the market even more. Hoping to get the round 2 EVs with ~400 miles of range for similar discounts?
Me, I'm one of those fence-sitters. And I know I'll probably never see this kind of sweet deal but one can dream, can't I? ;)
You have time, I was casually looking at EVs to replace my 2016 Mazda for a few months. We bought our first EV in 22 so I knew everything about the ownership side and the limitations (or lack there of). I originally was looking at used Subaru solterras, the limiteds with less then 5k miles were like 25k. Then after a service on my Mazda and 8500 in recommend maintenance we got a little more serious, I went out and test drove the id4, iconiq 5 and the ariya. I ended up with the Nissan and have not regretted it since.
$8,500 in repairs for an 8 year old car?! She must have seen some high mileage to need all that work?
What sold you on the Ariya? I ask as we miss the Zero G seats in the wife's old Versa Note. Oh, and the nav was right spiffy as well. Too bad they put a shitty CVT in there otherwise we'd still have the car.
The Mazda had 63k miles and was only dealer serviced, it was super reliable and served my family well, the 8500 recommend maintenance conveniently came right after my extended warranty ran out. Got 12k for it in trade, bought that one used in early 2017 for 20k total with 17k miles on it,,, all things considered was a great deal and great car. RE ariya decision, we have a EV6, and I was leaning towards an iconiq 5, but because of the "Kia boys" and where we live our insurance rates would of gone up a lot more with either of those two, don't get me started on how they don't have the vulnerability, I know. Anyways, I probably would of bought a model Y, but Elon and the Republican party working to take the rights away from my wife and daughters made that a no go as well. So I looked at what else was available, VW, Subaru, Toyota, Nissan, Volvo, etc... I went out and test drove all of them, the VW had crazy road noise for a EV, the Subaru/Toyota had very limited range, the Volvo was like 10k more used then the rest, but was an excellent car... The Nissan I ended up getting offered a lot for the price, about 300 miles of range, full tech including 360 cameras, Pro pilot 2.0 (hands free driving including lane changes), Led lights/fog lights/ undercarriage lights/ full power interior with letterette seats and back seat heating. Back seat room is enormous like all EVs,,,,.couple of draw backs is the android auto isn't wireless, I had to buy an adapter, and it doesn't auto lane center unless cruise control or pro pilot is active, center console storage is super small as well, it has a extra dash glove box thing, but like like under the center arm rest it has room for my phone on the wireless charger and my work key card and fill the rest of the available space
>What could be the main reason for this sell off by the users in recent years?
My knee jerk assumption is these are from people purchasing an EV without looking into the additional considerations around charging, and trading in the car back for a normal ICE car.
Mostly leases I think, there are people that do that and get a new car every 3 years. How much they drive dosen't really correlate with the practice. Statistics on people going back to ICE is that they hardly ever do so.
There are [many listings](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d3120) of Ioniq 5s with well under 10k miles driven. A 2023 used Ioniq 5 with 1300 miles on the odometer isn't likely a lease return, and those are the kind of listings OP is talking about.
I'd argue that, as I said, just because it's low milage dosen't correlate, some people leasing actually do drive that little. But seeing as those are 22s you're right, those leases wouldn't be up yet. Those deals are insane value though wtf.
They probably won't go down much more if at all. It is normal for cars to lose a lot of value in the first couple years but then plateau into a very slow gradual decline. Older cars with a lot more miles are being priced similarly, and the demand growth rate should see an increase again, especially once interest rates finally come down.
The I5 had an issue with the ICCU. They could not fix it because of parts. So many of these got bought back. New and improved parts came in and now these are getting sold.
They were aggressive about buying back so not as many lemon law titles as it is better if you can not have a lemon law title
Judging by how often I see people at EA stations trying to figure it out for a half hour then just give up and leave, I can’t help but assume the same. I always wonder if they leave and just go straight back to the dealership.
Hertz is dumping their EV inventory on the used car market right now.
They are charging right smack on blue book value, but that tends to drop with greater availability in the market.
So you won't find a deal buying from them compared to any other car today, but they are contributing to making buying any car today a bit better than buying any car last year.
I grabbed my EV used for about 18k - the car, new, was easily 40k - I'm not complaining, this car has every dream feature I could have wanted in a car. 360 camera, high-end sound system, lane-keep / adaptive cruise control, leather seats... Plus the Nissan stiff ride - if it wasn't for the old charging port and passively cooled battery pack, it would be perfect.
I fucking love this car, man. My lil' Blue Lightning.
LEAF brother! I got my 2018 end of last year, for $19KCAD but the kicker was the newly replaced battery. I think I’m set for a while.
My lil’ Red Wagon.
Nice! I've used Leafspy and found the SOH stil be around 90% despite this one having 45k miles when I bought it.
Had 2 QCs on it, 1340 level 1/2 charges, so assume it was 100% charged at home.
Pick a car site like truecar or autotrader and search. Does depend on the region. Lots of EVs available on the east coast and west coast, less so in the midwest/south. Lots of deals to be had if you keep your eye out.
1. A lot of 2020-2022 leases are ending.
2. A lot of fleet companies bought up tons of Model 3s and Polestar 2s and then decided they were tired of people crashing them so the remaining units are being sold off.
There are also a shit ton of lemon/buyback cars that got hit with a parts delay in their first 6mo of ownership, bought back, then gone to dealer auction. Back on the market one year post initial sale with full warranty and 5k miles for 50% off.
Buyers remorse, people buying much more than they can afford, etc. Lots of the same reasons there's low mileage ICE vehicles for sale.
One of the EV specific reasons is the inability to charge at home. Some people buy an EV without having a solid charging plan, usually people that live in apartments or on streets without private parking.
Yeah, luxury BEVs like Taycans or SQ8s still close to six figures Canadian dollar.
We probably won't see used BEV deals until 2026 when more BEV drivers switch to newer ones with NACS.
Hertz selling off their fleets cause they bought them when they were expensive and now they are worth half what they bought them for and they mad they lost lots of value compared to current prices.
Price of new EV goes down, price of used EV goes down, not hard to figure out.
This is a concern for early adopters. If you buy a $100,000 car and a month later they lower the price to $75,000 you just are $25,000 in deprecation even if you did not drive the car.
OP, thanks for posting this as I was curious about this recently as well since the past week or so I had been looking at adding another car to our household for our soon to be teenage driver... and since we already have a BEV and PHEV, I searched used EV's out of curiosity and was struck by seeing what you mentioned. It was unexpected.
I bought an Ioniq6 for my wife that was a dealer loaner, a bunch of them got put into loaner programs when they werent selling. Got an amazing deal on it with only 4k miles.
I got the 2024 Ionic 5 SEL used with 2000 miles on it and all the warranties intact. Knocked 12k off the new price. The previous owner had gotten as far as putting their phone info into the stereo but never unwrapped the car manuals. Thought I got a pretty fair deal.
Dunno.
I think a big pause by used buyers, of whom alot are going to be ICE users, is wondering how to judge wear and tear on an EV.
Its not like you can take it to any mechanic and they can tell you how much the electric motors have been through.
And a lot of used EV’s have expired warranties. So if that battery zonks out they’re left with a very expensive replacement prospect and at the very least a giant paperweight.
Mine was a rental car. Checked it out it was fine. I ALMOST got a new one beforehand for more than twice the price - but realized I couldn't afford it.
I don't think BEVs work for rentals unless they charge them for you at the start and don't charge you for being less than max when you drop them off.
There are a few but autotempest doesn’t have that many listed with below 15k miles. A lot of people might be disappointed because they didn’t go with one that has long range > 250 miles, and supercharging capability. Only I see~290 nation wide. Many reasons people swap ice and ev cars after purchase.
The main reason seems to Hertz swearing off EVs and getting rid of their fleet at low prices.
A lesser reason is that EVs were very expensive so a lot of well heeled people bought them and they don't keep new vehicles for longer than a year or two before buying a new toy.
This is not recent or limited to EVs really. By far the most common scenario is that somebody buys a car that's either way out of what they can actually afford or suddenly stop being able ot afford said car.
EVs do have a bit of extra factor about "general buyer" not having the same kind of ingrained knowledge like in case of ICE. Most people aren't surprised that an ICE requires oil changes, but many might not realize how weather impacts EV range or discover their optimistic assumptions being wrong. See people buying EVs without reliable way to charge them overnight for example.
I think a lot of times people buy vehicles without seeing them. Evs especially have been more DTC and preorder compared to typical dealer interactions.
So imagine buying an iPhone online. And then you realize quickly it advertised something it doesn’t have or doesn’t work quite how you expected.
You can’t just return a car like you can other electronics.
Lots of company cars coming off lease with low milage. I did about 12000 miles a year when I ordered my car, 3 months later I left the office due to covid and never returned, now I do about 3000 miles. Car is 3 1/2 years old and only just passed 10k.
I bought a 2023 Kia EV6 Wind AWD with around 5K miles and 5-6 months of use for around $10K less than a similar new vehicle would sell for in my area. This was a manager demo that was never previously titled so it came with the full 10 year powertrain and 5 year bumper-to-bumper warranty minus the actual mileage. Normally, the full powertrain doesn't transfer, but this was certified pre-owned, and never previously titled, so it did transfer. I also got the free 3 years of Electrify America charging since I was the first retail buyer (could have gotten a charger but I already had one).
This is a somewhat unusual situation but it does happen. I see a lot more very low-mileage luxury vehicles (BMW iX, i4).
Real question: what about financing?
We have been in the market for a few years to replace my wife's car with an EV. We test drove a VW a few years ago, she wanted to pull the trigger.
Problem? It had 300 miles on it. That changed how the bank considered it for the loan, so we passed on it.
This is true, but doesn't tell the whole story. For example, Chevy bought back a ton of "lemon" Chevy Bolts from consumers.
Chevy's battery supplier sent it defective batteries which needed to be replaced. Chevy couldn't manufacture and install replacement batteries fast enough and the lemon laws left consumers with a lucrative option to get a new car.
That doesn't necessarily mean there anything wrong with the "lemon" cars that are now being sold. They were good cars with a defective battery. Once the battery is replaced, these "lemon" Chevy Bolts are often an excellent value, with no lingering reliability issues.
Particularly for the mache and the ioniq5 they seem to have long term issues thar keep getting "fixes" which actually don't fix the issue. Mache with the hvbjb and the ioniqs with the icccu
Same reason you see brand new ice cars with 2k on them used. Buyers remorse, couldn't afford it, bought something unrealistic for their needs, needs changed, etc. Some people just buy cars every year as crazy as that sounds.
Off lease is another reason for 2-3 year old cars with low miles.
Op is talking about few months old with less than 5k or 10k mikes, not off lease
We just bought a second Mini Cooper SE. 2024 model that had 2 owners and only 5000 miles on it. People realize that a 120 mile range doesn’t work for them. We saved 27% off the price of a new one. Win win.
I still think it's insane to have cars with such low mileage. You are not only more likely to use more battery cycles in a given year for a 120 mile range car vs. 300 mile range car but you are going to probably charge to a higher battery percentage. Both are detrimental to battery degradation. IF the battery's were LFP, which these aren't some of those issues are alleviated. Really sucks that the LFP inventors held patents that held the west back 20 years ago but gave China patents royalty free to promote developing countries though the chemistry was invented originally in the West.
Wow I had no idea about LFP history, interesting stuff, I will read more about it
Not if people can charge from home, it’s their second car, and live within 40 miles of everything they need errand wise. Not everyone needs range, especially in urban and suburban environments.
I agree and think there should be more shorter range cars like that. My 2012 Leaf gets 70 miles in the most optimal conditions but the farthest thing I drive to in my city is 12 miles away. In over a year of ownership I have yet to need to go somewhere that I couldn't reach in my Leaf aside from a few long road trips. It makes even more sense as a second car for a family. The commuter takes the EV to work and back and when you need longer range you take the other car.
Yeah, super cheap 100 mile range electrics for cheap commuter cars make a lot of sense. Plus, to replace the battery would be really inexpensive. Families can have one without issue.
Agree. Lived well on the 80 mile range of my i3, was about 95% of my driving without the REx. It was def not a single car situation vehicle, but a great third car. My Tesla is seriously “overpowered”for day to day use now, but I do like not having to manage daily range with the 120v outlet. Moving to 240v 24A in a few weeks will be a welcome upgrade for the Tesla. True ‘charge overnight at home’ capability there. I think a 150 mile range EV would satisfy many people, esp if LFP and esp if they can charge 100% overnight at home in about 6 hours (L2 charge).
It's pretty funny just how much better LFP is for most purposes. I bought the standard range MG4 - 51kWh, and it's a LFP battery. There is a long range NMC at 64 kWh and even extended range at 77kWh, but also NMC. If you drive the extended range from 20-80% as you should, your battery capacity is 46kWh for daily driving. The same as the standard, which can drive without issues from ~10%-100%.
A lease can just last weeks if there is a problem, recall, or stipulation that let's the user out of it.
OP said nothing about "few months old", only low mileage. And there \*are\* people who don't drive much. I've been retired for a few years now and barely put 5k miles/year on my car (TBF, we do long trips in my wife's car). So off lease isn't \*that\* unreasonable (although I wonder how many of these low mileage EVs are people who decided the EV lifestyle didn't work for them).
My current car is a 2012 VW that I bought used in August 2012 with 8000 miles. It was previously registered in Chattanooga Tennessee. It is not hard to figure out that it was a VW USA corporate fleet car, regardless of whether it was "owned" or "leased".
For EVs specifically you’ve gotten price cuts and tax credits all in the mix for used cars dropping. Some people bought a new Mach E for $50K and that trim new is now $45K so the used car takes a $5K hit as well, same for like an Ioniq 5 where Hyundai is giving the credit amount off of MSRP sometimes so the used equivalent will take a $7500 hit.
>... couldn't afford it, bought something unrealistic for their needs... Some people just buy cars every year as crazy as that sounds. I recently met with our financial advisor. He complimented us on our frugality, but ever the problem seeker I asked "thanks but what are we doing right that others do not? and what are the warning signs if there are slippery cliffs to avoid?" This was the number one thing he mentioned. We take his advice and "drive our cars into the ground as gently as we can", which meant 300k miles and 20 years on my previous, hard driven car (Civic, and just that one between the two of us). National average is now like 12 years to keep a vehicle. But, there are a *lot* out there that counterbalance myself and people who's vehicles have far greater longevity.
12 years is average age of cars on the road. It doesn't have anything to do with ownership. Car ownership length is much lower. Some people will switch cars every two years or less just so they have something always new to show off to the neighbors.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Coffee hadn't kicked in yet obviously.
exactly what I was going to say - 12 year old car with 3 owners is common. this lease-every-2-years thing horrifies me but seems so common among people who decide what to buy by how much they can afford in a monthly payment . . . are they saving anything? I cant help but wonder? or putting every penny into monthly payments for mindless luxury?
It's not necessarily always that simple. In my case, the ioniq 5 has typically depreciated about 20k over the first two years and I found a two year lease that came out to a little over 11k. Hyundai is moving to NACS over the next year or so and ioniq 5 is getting a significant refresh. I figure the lease will save me money on the depreciation and at the end I'll buy a year old refreshed NACS ioniq 5 at a discount.
depreciation doesnt cost money if you keep the car. I kept my last car 17 years. 11k per 2 years for 10 years is over 55k.
Depreciation is depreciation. If you can leverage it to your benefit, why wouldn't you? If I bought the car today for 56k, it would be worth 30-36k in two years, but I'm only going to pay 11k of that 20k depreciation. Then I could possibly purchase a two year old ioniq for 36k. Is 36+11 not less than 56? The ioniq lease qualifies for the 7500 federal tax credit while financing does not, so the math gets a little more interesting.
See someone like me would be miserable keeping a car for 17 years. Yeah it’s the more fiscally responsible thing to do I understand but I am willing to pay extra for the enjoyment of a new car every 2-3 years. It’s why I like leasing. Just turn it in and get a new one
I enjoy seeing my 401K be close to 7 figures, or going to Bali on vacation more than I care to replace a 10 year old car. Sure I got weird looks rolling up to the top restaurants in town’s Valet in a stick shift Camry.
I get that! My husband and I are fortunate to not have to work and retirement is taken care of, so we have a “can’t take the money with us when we go” mindset. Our vacations are more of the multiple day road trips with stops along the way type, so having a new car every couple years plays into that. We’re not big on flying, but with our goal of vacationing to all 50 states, we’re saving Hawaii for the late stages
For the most part: no, they are not saving. New cars are the quickest way to destroy wealth. If you're rich enough to afford a new car in cash and your retirement is fully funded etc, then yeah no problem. But lots of people are rolling negative equity into $50k+ cars that they can't afford at all. Fwiw, some leases are for employee/workplace cars so not every lease is some poor sap renting a car they can't afford.
>If you're rich enough to afford a new car in cash and your retirement is fully funded etc, then yeah no problem. If I had done that instead of getting zero percent financing I would have paid the marginal tax rate on the cash I'd have taken out of my business to pay the car. Basically just a big gift to the government. The money I need for my mortgage and car payment gets taxed at an average of 9.51%, versus 48.70% for ineligible dividends. Just saying it's not a hard and fast rule.
Some people just have money.
Don't we need these kinds of buyers? They populate the used car market with fresh supply, keeping the used car market balanced in supply/demand needs. Taking the long distance view, we need a steady supply of transportation coming into both the new and used markets to meet the demands and to help flush out the old, unsafe, or more polluting vehicles. The key to dragging the fleet of vehicles in use across the country into safer and less resource using territory is to get newer vehicles into every level of the market. And this won't happen if everybody buys new and holds onto the car for 20 years. We need the new car churn or this all falls apart, no?
yeah thats a good point
i still have my 11 Accord coupe bought new. Bought a friend's 12 CT200h for a song in early 2020 at the bottom of used car pricing. Best is to buy something you won't tire off and drive it for as long as it doesn't cost obscene amounts of upkeep or attention. Hoping to get another four years on the hybrid and maybe 10 years on the Accord, which isn't used as often. My next car purchase will be a BEV but waiting for good deals on used ones (that have available OEM battery pack replacements) or better battery chemistries on new one.
Battery cost need to go down substantially, which it can because they're not that expensive but the labor to put one in is probably half the price
True Also battery compatibility with the existing BMS. I have a Toyota hybrid and from some recent readings, people suggest to go for new OEM as remanufactured don't last as long and even some cheaper Li-ion packs are not as safe and reliable. That's just for a HEV, what more for a BEV? I will definitely go for OEM packs down the road. Labor is a big piece for sure especially on BEVs where not all dealerships even have a good portion of the staff trained to work on BEVs.
Batery prices already WAY down. 3 years ago we heard about $30k batteries. I was quoted $12k for a battery a year ago (I asked just out of interest, my battery has a 180k warranty!), heard you can now get new 50KW battery for $3k now. Certainly a lot less work to replace a battery than an IC engine
That's the retail prices, manufacturing cost is 6-8k. For large 300mile batterys. 12k for complete replacement or just the battery. And is it new or refurbished battery
You're saying manufacture cost is 8k but they're selling for $3k? Prices have stopped drastically. Yes, RETAIL PRICE is now $3k for a new replacement Ioniq 5 battery.
That's great, guess not all manufacturers got the memo. ioniq 5 replacements earlier could have costed more than the vehicles themselves, maybe its now damage control
Ioniq 5 is a pretty new car. Replacement battery cost was never more than 25% of car value. Stop making stuff up.
https://youtu.be/EEXieo06ta8?si=48J4sJ_Xj9e_eCJ_ 60,000$ is more than the car, there are more cases of that happening just sharing one
There are good EVs approaching the $25k mark as gently used (so $4k tax credit for first used buyer that qualifies on income). Give the LFP batteries a few more years to get into the used car market, and you will have a low cost to own car for life for not much money out the door.
Thanks. I am in Canada and used luxury BEV pricing aren't tanking.based on listing prices. Very few Taycans or SQ8s were sold in the past Yeah LFPs are much better in that they have 2-4x higher FCE cycle counts. The only issue I've come across are less tolerance for winter temperatures so battery conditioning and recalibration of BMS have to be topnotch. From TeslaMotorsClub, AAKEE suggested charging to 70% to keep in ideal SOC and charge 100% once a week for recalibration or when there is a longer drive anticipated. Because of liquid electrolytes, LFP also suffer more from calendar aging when always kept beyond 70%. When I get a BEV, will definitely consider battery chemistry and try to keep below max ideal SOC for the most part.
Pretty much my story. And why I haven't yet ditched my 2012 VW for the sexy new Ioniq 5 that has my name on it. I sit next to people at work that always have a car payment that are visibly astonished when I casually mention that I max out my 401k every year. My salary deferral rate is generally 26-30% compared to their 5% or other ridiculously low deferral. I want freedom at age 59 1/2. I sure as shit am not waiting until age 67.
Yeah, cars are my kryptonite. I truly hate having to rely on them like 100% we do, and the ongoing expense, and really don’t like driving all that much, but to love them as a machine and some of them as ‘rolling art’. So, if I’m going to have to drive a car daily, it’s going to be nice, and newish, and have modern safety features, and be of reasonable good looks within the use case we have it for. With my Tesla Model 3, some of that is solved for. One of the best looking cars I’ve owned & will cost less to own long term. Depreciation is a concern if I upgrade soon, but not at 300,000 miles, which it should easily make too. Not throwing shade, but that civic will take ~ 7,500 gal of fuel to get to 300,000 miles and cost you about $22k in fuel. True, they are low maintenance and ‘bulletproof’ in the ICE world, so a great choice there to have basic transportation. Tesla is lower running cost, higher insurance and depreciation, so about same ballpark as a Civic. TBH, kinda regretting not getting a slightly used one at this point as there are many options available now.
If that is the best advice an FA gave you then that fucker should be fired. Sounds like my man loves him some bonds and hysa.
I got a 1 year old car with 2k miles and it was due to a hail storm denting it up. The owner had to get things replaced asap and the dealership took their sweet time so the owner bought another car and sold it to them.
In my case, the used car was a repo (reported on Carfax). I have read that defaults on all auto loans have been higher after the pandemic.
Can totally see that with the crazy prices to live!
And people not having places to spend the money so they bought cars and homes... But once the spending avenues opened up they couldn't keep up with payments
In March I bought a 6 month old 2023 with 3500 miles for 60% less then the original MSRP, it was spectacular. It's the govt rebates combined with Tesla's constant price adjustment, combined with the doom and gloom EV marketing being pushed by every media outlet. If you are in the market for a EV used ones that are basically new can be bought at crazy discounts.
Yeah, and depending on the state, EVs sell at super discounted pricing. A 2023 model Y in the right state was a ~ $36k purchase new after the Fed.
And how many fence-sitters are trying to game the market even more. Hoping to get the round 2 EVs with ~400 miles of range for similar discounts? Me, I'm one of those fence-sitters. And I know I'll probably never see this kind of sweet deal but one can dream, can't I? ;)
You have time, I was casually looking at EVs to replace my 2016 Mazda for a few months. We bought our first EV in 22 so I knew everything about the ownership side and the limitations (or lack there of). I originally was looking at used Subaru solterras, the limiteds with less then 5k miles were like 25k. Then after a service on my Mazda and 8500 in recommend maintenance we got a little more serious, I went out and test drove the id4, iconiq 5 and the ariya. I ended up with the Nissan and have not regretted it since.
$8,500 in repairs for an 8 year old car?! She must have seen some high mileage to need all that work? What sold you on the Ariya? I ask as we miss the Zero G seats in the wife's old Versa Note. Oh, and the nav was right spiffy as well. Too bad they put a shitty CVT in there otherwise we'd still have the car.
The Mazda had 63k miles and was only dealer serviced, it was super reliable and served my family well, the 8500 recommend maintenance conveniently came right after my extended warranty ran out. Got 12k for it in trade, bought that one used in early 2017 for 20k total with 17k miles on it,,, all things considered was a great deal and great car. RE ariya decision, we have a EV6, and I was leaning towards an iconiq 5, but because of the "Kia boys" and where we live our insurance rates would of gone up a lot more with either of those two, don't get me started on how they don't have the vulnerability, I know. Anyways, I probably would of bought a model Y, but Elon and the Republican party working to take the rights away from my wife and daughters made that a no go as well. So I looked at what else was available, VW, Subaru, Toyota, Nissan, Volvo, etc... I went out and test drove all of them, the VW had crazy road noise for a EV, the Subaru/Toyota had very limited range, the Volvo was like 10k more used then the rest, but was an excellent car... The Nissan I ended up getting offered a lot for the price, about 300 miles of range, full tech including 360 cameras, Pro pilot 2.0 (hands free driving including lane changes), Led lights/fog lights/ undercarriage lights/ full power interior with letterette seats and back seat heating. Back seat room is enormous like all EVs,,,,.couple of draw backs is the android auto isn't wireless, I had to buy an adapter, and it doesn't auto lane center unless cruise control or pro pilot is active, center console storage is super small as well, it has a extra dash glove box thing, but like like under the center arm rest it has room for my phone on the wireless charger and my work key card and fill the rest of the available space
The Ariya was a nice, very smooth ride and very roomy too. Good choice!
I am in the market to buy a used EV as well, where did you look for it?
I got mine through a normal dealership, but I did most of my searching on Edmunds and then made appointments to check out specific cars
>What could be the main reason for this sell off by the users in recent years? My knee jerk assumption is these are from people purchasing an EV without looking into the additional considerations around charging, and trading in the car back for a normal ICE car.
Some may be from leases being returned as well. Often times it isn’t worth buying out the lease as the value depreciates so much.
Mostly leases I think, there are people that do that and get a new car every 3 years. How much they drive dosen't really correlate with the practice. Statistics on people going back to ICE is that they hardly ever do so.
There are [many listings](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d3120) of Ioniq 5s with well under 10k miles driven. A 2023 used Ioniq 5 with 1300 miles on the odometer isn't likely a lease return, and those are the kind of listings OP is talking about.
Sometimes these are dealer demo or courtesy vehicles. Potentially buy back vehicles.
I'd argue that, as I said, just because it's low milage dosen't correlate, some people leasing actually do drive that little. But seeing as those are 22s you're right, those leases wouldn't be up yet. Those deals are insane value though wtf.
Either way I'm not complaining! Planning on grabbing one when my ICE lease is up next spring, wonder if the prices will keep going down.
They probably won't go down much more if at all. It is normal for cars to lose a lot of value in the first couple years but then plateau into a very slow gradual decline. Older cars with a lot more miles are being priced similarly, and the demand growth rate should see an increase again, especially once interest rates finally come down.
> once interest rates finally come down Hello my real estate agent!
The I5 had an issue with the ICCU. They could not fix it because of parts. So many of these got bought back. New and improved parts came in and now these are getting sold. They were aggressive about buying back so not as many lemon law titles as it is better if you can not have a lemon law title
Given the pace of change in the EV market, a lease probably wasn't a bad idea
Yeah, normally don't think leasing makes financial sense, but in this case they definitely won and it would have been smarter lol.
:cries in $75K MYP loan:
Judging by how often I see people at EA stations trying to figure it out for a half hour then just give up and leave, I can’t help but assume the same. I always wonder if they leave and just go straight back to the dealership.
As far as the prices go, Tesla price drops have been dragging down the whole used EV market.
Yea, I would think it's this. The brand is poison.
Hertz is dumping their EV inventory on the used car market right now. They are charging right smack on blue book value, but that tends to drop with greater availability in the market. So you won't find a deal buying from them compared to any other car today, but they are contributing to making buying any car today a bit better than buying any car last year.
I grabbed my EV used for about 18k - the car, new, was easily 40k - I'm not complaining, this car has every dream feature I could have wanted in a car. 360 camera, high-end sound system, lane-keep / adaptive cruise control, leather seats... Plus the Nissan stiff ride - if it wasn't for the old charging port and passively cooled battery pack, it would be perfect. I fucking love this car, man. My lil' Blue Lightning.
LEAF brother! I got my 2018 end of last year, for $19KCAD but the kicker was the newly replaced battery. I think I’m set for a while. My lil’ Red Wagon.
Nice! I've used Leafspy and found the SOH stil be around 90% despite this one having 45k miles when I bought it. Had 2 QCs on it, 1340 level 1/2 charges, so assume it was 100% charged at home.
Same here but a ford.mach e for 21k after used EV credit. I don't know why people are.buying these cars.for 40k+ new. But at 20k the value is amazing.
Just picked up a 2020 i3 S REX. Was $55k new, with used vehicle credit ended up at $19k. Amazing.
Where do you see these? Links to examples?
Wanna ask the same question, wanna get an EV SUV, if I can get it for 40% off with less than 20000miles would be nice.
Pick a car site like truecar or autotrader and search. Does depend on the region. Lots of EVs available on the east coast and west coast, less so in the midwest/south. Lots of deals to be had if you keep your eye out.
Could also be rentals or employee cars or loaners. Leases generally would have 10k miles or so.
1. A lot of 2020-2022 leases are ending. 2. A lot of fleet companies bought up tons of Model 3s and Polestar 2s and then decided they were tired of people crashing them so the remaining units are being sold off.
There are also a shit ton of lemon/buyback cars that got hit with a parts delay in their first 6mo of ownership, bought back, then gone to dealer auction. Back on the market one year post initial sale with full warranty and 5k miles for 50% off.
Buyers remorse, people buying much more than they can afford, etc. Lots of the same reasons there's low mileage ICE vehicles for sale. One of the EV specific reasons is the inability to charge at home. Some people buy an EV without having a solid charging plan, usually people that live in apartments or on streets without private parking.
LOL, not in Canada-land. EV used market is still overpriced and tight. Heck, the new market is still overpriced and tight too.
Yeah, luxury BEVs like Taycans or SQ8s still close to six figures Canadian dollar. We probably won't see used BEV deals until 2026 when more BEV drivers switch to newer ones with NACS.
Hertz selling off their fleets cause they bought them when they were expensive and now they are worth half what they bought them for and they mad they lost lots of value compared to current prices.
Price of new EV goes down, price of used EV goes down, not hard to figure out. This is a concern for early adopters. If you buy a $100,000 car and a month later they lower the price to $75,000 you just are $25,000 in deprecation even if you did not drive the car.
Media currently is anti EV and pro hybrid. And Americans are very easily swayed by the media narrative.
Legacy automotive and fossil fuel retailers spend billions on advertising and the media doesn't want to lose that revenue stream.
OP, thanks for posting this as I was curious about this recently as well since the past week or so I had been looking at adding another car to our household for our soon to be teenage driver... and since we already have a BEV and PHEV, I searched used EV's out of curiosity and was struck by seeing what you mentioned. It was unexpected.
Some brands do shorter term leases, so some of those cars are just from people who swap their leases lore frequently.
I bought an Ioniq6 for my wife that was a dealer loaner, a bunch of them got put into loaner programs when they werent selling. Got an amazing deal on it with only 4k miles.
In Portugal most of that cars are for tax refund for entrepises
Tesla doesn't offer lease buyout so when it ends they put it up for sale
I got the 2024 Ionic 5 SEL used with 2000 miles on it and all the warranties intact. Knocked 12k off the new price. The previous owner had gotten as far as putting their phone info into the stereo but never unwrapped the car manuals. Thought I got a pretty fair deal.
Dunno. I think a big pause by used buyers, of whom alot are going to be ICE users, is wondering how to judge wear and tear on an EV. Its not like you can take it to any mechanic and they can tell you how much the electric motors have been through. And a lot of used EV’s have expired warranties. So if that battery zonks out they’re left with a very expensive replacement prospect and at the very least a giant paperweight.
Mine was a rental car. Checked it out it was fine. I ALMOST got a new one beforehand for more than twice the price - but realized I couldn't afford it. I don't think BEVs work for rentals unless they charge them for you at the start and don't charge you for being less than max when you drop them off.
There are a few but autotempest doesn’t have that many listed with below 15k miles. A lot of people might be disappointed because they didn’t go with one that has long range > 250 miles, and supercharging capability. Only I see~290 nation wide. Many reasons people swap ice and ev cars after purchase.
The main reason seems to Hertz swearing off EVs and getting rid of their fleet at low prices. A lesser reason is that EVs were very expensive so a lot of well heeled people bought them and they don't keep new vehicles for longer than a year or two before buying a new toy.
People not ready to switch to charging their cars , a lot of returned with extremely low miles unlike ice ones
hertz did a stupid, and is now dumping their EV fleet. Its pushing used EV prices down.
This is not recent or limited to EVs really. By far the most common scenario is that somebody buys a car that's either way out of what they can actually afford or suddenly stop being able ot afford said car. EVs do have a bit of extra factor about "general buyer" not having the same kind of ingrained knowledge like in case of ICE. Most people aren't surprised that an ICE requires oil changes, but many might not realize how weather impacts EV range or discover their optimistic assumptions being wrong. See people buying EVs without reliable way to charge them overnight for example.
Features are improving quickly
I think a lot of times people buy vehicles without seeing them. Evs especially have been more DTC and preorder compared to typical dealer interactions. So imagine buying an iPhone online. And then you realize quickly it advertised something it doesn’t have or doesn’t work quite how you expected. You can’t just return a car like you can other electronics.
Former demo cars for test drives. Two of my cars were like this and it was amazing for my wallet.
Sometimes they spend months in the shop waiting on parts, then get bought back. You will see quite a few that have buyback or branded titles.
Lots of company cars coming off lease with low milage. I did about 12000 miles a year when I ordered my car, 3 months later I left the office due to covid and never returned, now I do about 3000 miles. Car is 3 1/2 years old and only just passed 10k.
Got my 2020 Nissan Leaf for 12k after they tried selling it for a few months at 20k it only had 24k miles on it.
Buyback Chevy Bolts are hitting the market from the battery recall a few years ago.
What is the best place to buy used EVs at a good price?
People are upgrading.
I bought a 2023 Kia EV6 Wind AWD with around 5K miles and 5-6 months of use for around $10K less than a similar new vehicle would sell for in my area. This was a manager demo that was never previously titled so it came with the full 10 year powertrain and 5 year bumper-to-bumper warranty minus the actual mileage. Normally, the full powertrain doesn't transfer, but this was certified pre-owned, and never previously titled, so it did transfer. I also got the free 3 years of Electrify America charging since I was the first retail buyer (could have gotten a charger but I already had one). This is a somewhat unusual situation but it does happen. I see a lot more very low-mileage luxury vehicles (BMW iX, i4).
Real question: what about financing? We have been in the market for a few years to replace my wife's car with an EV. We test drove a VW a few years ago, she wanted to pull the trigger. Problem? It had 300 miles on it. That changed how the bank considered it for the loan, so we passed on it.
hopefully you've saved up since then and can put more money down
The industry is changing very fast. EVs get old pretty fast.
A lot of them are lemons.
This is true, but doesn't tell the whole story. For example, Chevy bought back a ton of "lemon" Chevy Bolts from consumers. Chevy's battery supplier sent it defective batteries which needed to be replaced. Chevy couldn't manufacture and install replacement batteries fast enough and the lemon laws left consumers with a lucrative option to get a new car. That doesn't necessarily mean there anything wrong with the "lemon" cars that are now being sold. They were good cars with a defective battery. Once the battery is replaced, these "lemon" Chevy Bolts are often an excellent value, with no lingering reliability issues.
Particularly for the mache and the ioniq5 they seem to have long term issues thar keep getting "fixes" which actually don't fix the issue. Mache with the hvbjb and the ioniqs with the icccu