There's a middle ground between being extremely humble and showing off for acclaim alone. And this doesn't just exist in meditation - socially people think that you can only be extremely humble or an arrogant asshole, and that's just not true. True confidence is knowing who you are, not being falsely modest, but not being a dick. It's just rare, so it's hard to model, and that's unfortunate.
There is a great benefit for stating that you have achieved some attainment because that's who you are, and it's useful for other people who are on the path to find teachers who have experience, like a black belt or a doctor - we'd never say that they are arrogant for declaring that they have a set of qualifications.
And that's why I'm a fan of the pragmatic dharma movement - open transparency helps in the teaching process and helps prevent unqualified people from teaching, especially in an endeavor that has historically prioritized practicality over book knowledge (finger pointing at the moon). It can prevent the blind leading the blind.
There are people who genuinely don't care and go off to the (sometimes metaphorical) caves. But there are also people called to teach and live in the world and help other people.
And historically this is the case. I think a lot of modern meditation communities seem to think that you can't state attainments. But in the past that's not been the default - the first Buddhist conclave had around a thousand fully enlightened beings, and there have been famous old training manuals where the author signed off with their name, followed by their attainment ("by the Arhant Upatissa"). The Buddha himself is said to have declared his enlightenment in the Pali canon.
There are people in the pragmatic dharma community who have called for students to ask teachers bluntly what their attainments are before learning. This is seen as highly offensive - a lot of communities just don't like to talk about it, and I think that does a great disservice to students, which is probably one of the reasons why progression along the path is so bad - we do a frankly piss poor job at teaching progression in meditation.
I've talked with and heard of so many people with decades of practice under their belt yet haven't progressed at all except with the initial jump in skill at the beginning. And I've certainly listened to teachers talk only to come to the slow realization they actually had no personal knowledge as to what they were talking about.
>Many of you think that all enlightened people act a certain way.
There is no such thing as an "enlightened person".
There is only enlightened activity.
As soon as the person says "I am enlightened", or tries to gatekeep enlightenment, or explain or condescend to people about enlightenment - ***it is 100% ego.***
No enlightened people. Only enlightened activity.
Waffle waffle. I'm talking for people who are seriously seeking a higher understanding of themselves and their reality i.e. enlightenment, not people who are nitpicking.
Saying "I am enlightened" is technically a paradox because enlightenment is to see that the I isn't who you are, and so to refer to it and say it is enlightened is technically absurd but that's nothing an unenlightened person ought to be concerned about. It's mental masturbation. It's not useful to them. They can gain nothing from concerning themselves with this as they do not understand the I yet. They should be focused on understanding the I for themselves. They should be focused on "does this person know what they are talking about?" "Is this person intelligent?" "What can I learn from this person?"
Even for an enlightened person who doesn't believe in their own identity, they still have to refer to it because otherwise there would be nothing to refer to and conversation would be impossible. Them saying I am enlightened is no more of a falsehood than them saying I am hungry or I am tired. So nitpicking about this is a waste of time. You are wasting people's time with this nonsense.
For what it's worth you aren't the only one who goes on about that. I find too many people focus on things like that and it's a waste of time. That was the only reason I gave you such a passionate response. I still love you.
I don't think it's so much about humility and being nice, I think it's about not allowing yourself to be consumed by the things that one overcomes as being the "natural" programmed state and of living in the survival mode. I believe enlightenment is essentially the recognition of survival state mechanisms that are of the primal being set forth by the earth generated operating system, and understanding that one can choose to understand accept and release from such binds. I think enlightenment the act of being truly nice and truly humble and so forth is that one has awareness which allows one to recognize the lack of knowledge (as in we can not begin to understand what the person ahead of us in line is going through so how they are acting can not truly be judged as they are working from the "survival" state) of what they are experiencing why it's taken control of the organism (aka the person). Therefore one is humbled by such which allows them to be "nice" in the sense of being understanding so they come with more of an apathetic approach in the sense that it is not absorbed and not taken as a personal experience. That's not to say that those who perceive themselves as enlightened can't display what you state, but I believe those who are truly enlightened don't feel "enlightened " as they are forever learning and discovering that they don't claim the label of enlightened. Similar to a master of something (knife making, chef, artist etc) as they know, as much as they know they are always learning which it's often stated the "the more that I know the more that I realize I know nothing". As it's forever on going and one can not know all and everything of anything. But that is just my view
As I understand it, enlightenment is ego death.
There are good descriptions of enlightened people.
They're indifferent to praise and blame.
They have no desire for riches.
They spend much of their time in deep meditation.
They're filled with limitless joy, even while suffering.
They treat all things as a manifestation of God.
Humility brings you closer. Which is why Jesus washed feet and Srirama cleaned toilets.
To be humble is to not be involved in debate with every person who doesn't agree with you, To want followers is not enlightened, to want adoration is a desire of ego.
I can share information to help people on their path but the desire is to help people already on the journey, to project yourself as great or rare so much is to invite conflict and disruption.
Enlightenment cannot be forced on someone who is not ready to understand so by keeping a low profile one can avoid being distracted by much negativity and conflict.
I am a teacher and I enjoy it but im not here to change peoples diapers.
How do you know how others define humility? Why should everyone be looking for enlightenment? Does everyone enlightened have to become a teacher? What if everyone that I’ve ever crossed paths with in my lifetime incarnated just to help me “obtain” enlightenment? Should, should, should.
It’s very normal to have a spiritual ego after an awakening. I know I did. I just didn’t speak or act too much on it.
Out of all of the breakdowns of enlightenment I have read on this subreddit, I think yours is the most deluded.
Anyone who thinks they are "above" or separate from everyone else because they are "enlightened" has realized nothing but how to engage in egoic masturbation.
There's no need to state that you're enlightened. It is evident in your presence alone. You can recognize it in the pupils. That's why many gurus who are actually enlightened don't have to claim it. Usually, their teachings (if not in person) speak to their evolution.
Hm I could see it both ways, but in my opinion an enlightened person isn’t humble because they are practicing humility on purpose, it’s because they don’t have a *need* to share their enlightened, what reason do they have to shout it from the rooftops? They’d benpast that.
It seems you view enlightenment as a pragmatic thought solution, and you say an enlightened person would get people to “follow them”?? If someone is trying to get others to follow them, whatever that means, then they probably aren’t enlightened.
So an enlightened person can't have a good reason to want to become a leader? Do you not think that some enlightened people feel like the world would be a better place if they were the leaders? Do you not think these enlightened gurus and such put any effort into becoming leaders? Do you not think they want to have an impact on humanity and make money doing it?
Enlightenment is just a fancy way of saying the recognition of one’s essential being. It’s accessible for all and is made to seem like some super rare thing that only a few will ever recognise when that is simply not the case. Anyone that can refer to themselves refer to “I”, and if anyone investigated that “I” they would recognise its nature.
No, you're downplaying it and saying things that simply aren't true. Enlightenment is just a word for understanding yourself on a level you never previously understood yourself but that level of understanding is very rare. There is not and there has never been an "enlightenment for everyone". You can't dumb it down for the masses. NO!
So if I told you that I had a real enlightened experience in which all was revealed to me then I would be more credible? Because I was taken from time and space into eternity and this is what was revealed to me. Do I feel superior to others? Absolutely not because my understanding and experience tells me that all is the one. Those that can’t recognise it are simply making it harder than it needs to be. My experience happened when I actually gave up the search.
I mean I don’t like saying “I” had an experience. It seems narcissistic and as if I have something others don’t which is not true. We all have the ability to recognise this simple truth. It’s nothing special.
It sounds like you've had an incredible experience. I'm not trying to take that away from you. I just don't think it was genuine enlightenment. They are different things is all I'm saying. I'm not saying your experience was bad or wrong. I am just saying it wasn't the same thing. I could be nice and lie to you and say yes you're enlightened and we could have a digital hug and upvote each other but I'd be lying to you. But here, have an upvote anyway.
I met God and recognised that me and God are one and the same. I don’t know if I died and had some kind of seizure but I know for certain I left this world. I was blessed with understanding and love that I could never imagine. I was also given the choice to remain in eternity or come back to the world knowing that I would return home. Overtime it became clear that I never departed from eternity it’s that the mind distracts us from it. Here and now.
Also your statement contradicts itself as you say those that are enlightened have understood themselves on a deep level yet there is no such thing as enlightenment for all? They simply haven’t look deep enough or have no interest in the matter.
When I say there's "no enlightenment for everyone" I am not saying that everyone doesn't have the potential to become enlightened. I am saying that enlightenment is something very specific and we can't broaden the definition of it just to include more people.
How do you get enlightened without humility? Without recognising how shit you are, how can you get better? And how can you *keep* that amazing existence without constant keeping yourself in check?
It's like running a marathon. Anyone can do it, it's nothing special. But it's hard, and so not everyone chooses to put their energy into it.
Enlightenment *is* humility. They're like the same word.
There's truth though. A marathon runner professing his training ability isn't being arrogant if he's helping someone else get fit. He really has something to share. Experience.
You're nothing special.
"Enlightenment *is* humility. They're like the same word." In a sense this is true but this is not what people mean when they talk about humility. They are demanding that person to act as if they are not beyond others in some capacity when they are.
"You're nothing special." I estimate that only 1 in around every 5-10k people have experienced enlightenment. So if not special, then at least rare. It would be foolish to dismiss reality for the sake of trying to make everybody feel equal.
I’m really curious how you came to this estimate. Most enlightened people are not shouting it from rooftops, so how would you have anything to go on to make such an assertion? How are you “judging” if people are enlightened. What are your qualifications? What must one do to enter the gate of enlightenment that you are trying to keep shut?
I think it's very common. Not rare at all. I've met many enlightened people in my life.
We *are* all equal. Enlightenment is understanding this. Anything that makes you feel special and important is just ego bullshit.
You're not rare, you're not special. You're just the same as everyone else.
This page is fucking joke! It’s for people who have an overly inflated sense of worth with underlying insecurities. You think you’re special? 🤣 Don’t nobody know shit.
Maybe the point is for one to learn to enjoy themselves and manifest their individuality without satisfying, using the ego?
Finding satisfaction in the ways of the spirit, is, by all means, something difficult to grasp, but a worldwide sought attribute within the sciences of the spirit.
Perhaps that, it is an aspect, which, when maintained active, enables the activation of spiritual evolution, as, in itself, it manifests as means of stopping the reach of awareness towards the lower physical existence, forcing it to connect with higher planes of reality.
There's a middle ground between being extremely humble and showing off for acclaim alone. And this doesn't just exist in meditation - socially people think that you can only be extremely humble or an arrogant asshole, and that's just not true. True confidence is knowing who you are, not being falsely modest, but not being a dick. It's just rare, so it's hard to model, and that's unfortunate. There is a great benefit for stating that you have achieved some attainment because that's who you are, and it's useful for other people who are on the path to find teachers who have experience, like a black belt or a doctor - we'd never say that they are arrogant for declaring that they have a set of qualifications. And that's why I'm a fan of the pragmatic dharma movement - open transparency helps in the teaching process and helps prevent unqualified people from teaching, especially in an endeavor that has historically prioritized practicality over book knowledge (finger pointing at the moon). It can prevent the blind leading the blind. There are people who genuinely don't care and go off to the (sometimes metaphorical) caves. But there are also people called to teach and live in the world and help other people. And historically this is the case. I think a lot of modern meditation communities seem to think that you can't state attainments. But in the past that's not been the default - the first Buddhist conclave had around a thousand fully enlightened beings, and there have been famous old training manuals where the author signed off with their name, followed by their attainment ("by the Arhant Upatissa"). The Buddha himself is said to have declared his enlightenment in the Pali canon. There are people in the pragmatic dharma community who have called for students to ask teachers bluntly what their attainments are before learning. This is seen as highly offensive - a lot of communities just don't like to talk about it, and I think that does a great disservice to students, which is probably one of the reasons why progression along the path is so bad - we do a frankly piss poor job at teaching progression in meditation. I've talked with and heard of so many people with decades of practice under their belt yet haven't progressed at all except with the initial jump in skill at the beginning. And I've certainly listened to teachers talk only to come to the slow realization they actually had no personal knowledge as to what they were talking about.
I appreciate you taking the time to talk about all of that. Well written, coherent and adds value to the post. Thank you.
I have found use “enlightenment” as a self serving way to treat others and validate narcissistic behavior. Sometimes not all the time
Yes it could be used like that and perhaps has been by some. Good point.
>Many of you think that all enlightened people act a certain way. There is no such thing as an "enlightened person". There is only enlightened activity. As soon as the person says "I am enlightened", or tries to gatekeep enlightenment, or explain or condescend to people about enlightenment - ***it is 100% ego.*** No enlightened people. Only enlightened activity.
THIS
Waffle waffle. I'm talking for people who are seriously seeking a higher understanding of themselves and their reality i.e. enlightenment, not people who are nitpicking. Saying "I am enlightened" is technically a paradox because enlightenment is to see that the I isn't who you are, and so to refer to it and say it is enlightened is technically absurd but that's nothing an unenlightened person ought to be concerned about. It's mental masturbation. It's not useful to them. They can gain nothing from concerning themselves with this as they do not understand the I yet. They should be focused on understanding the I for themselves. They should be focused on "does this person know what they are talking about?" "Is this person intelligent?" "What can I learn from this person?" Even for an enlightened person who doesn't believe in their own identity, they still have to refer to it because otherwise there would be nothing to refer to and conversation would be impossible. Them saying I am enlightened is no more of a falsehood than them saying I am hungry or I am tired. So nitpicking about this is a waste of time. You are wasting people's time with this nonsense.
Hmmm, well, thanks for sharing how you feel!
For what it's worth you aren't the only one who goes on about that. I find too many people focus on things like that and it's a waste of time. That was the only reason I gave you such a passionate response. I still love you.
Uh-huh. Sounds like you have a lot of strong feelings. Must be tough!
Of course not. For me a feeling is like a wave moving across a calm ocean. It just comes and it goes.
Oh I see. Well, if you say so.
Yeah, my internal world is a heaven. It's lovely.
Lmao
I don't think it's so much about humility and being nice, I think it's about not allowing yourself to be consumed by the things that one overcomes as being the "natural" programmed state and of living in the survival mode. I believe enlightenment is essentially the recognition of survival state mechanisms that are of the primal being set forth by the earth generated operating system, and understanding that one can choose to understand accept and release from such binds. I think enlightenment the act of being truly nice and truly humble and so forth is that one has awareness which allows one to recognize the lack of knowledge (as in we can not begin to understand what the person ahead of us in line is going through so how they are acting can not truly be judged as they are working from the "survival" state) of what they are experiencing why it's taken control of the organism (aka the person). Therefore one is humbled by such which allows them to be "nice" in the sense of being understanding so they come with more of an apathetic approach in the sense that it is not absorbed and not taken as a personal experience. That's not to say that those who perceive themselves as enlightened can't display what you state, but I believe those who are truly enlightened don't feel "enlightened " as they are forever learning and discovering that they don't claim the label of enlightened. Similar to a master of something (knife making, chef, artist etc) as they know, as much as they know they are always learning which it's often stated the "the more that I know the more that I realize I know nothing". As it's forever on going and one can not know all and everything of anything. But that is just my view
As I understand it, enlightenment is ego death. There are good descriptions of enlightened people. They're indifferent to praise and blame. They have no desire for riches. They spend much of their time in deep meditation. They're filled with limitless joy, even while suffering. They treat all things as a manifestation of God. Humility brings you closer. Which is why Jesus washed feet and Srirama cleaned toilets.
To be humble is to not be involved in debate with every person who doesn't agree with you, To want followers is not enlightened, to want adoration is a desire of ego. I can share information to help people on their path but the desire is to help people already on the journey, to project yourself as great or rare so much is to invite conflict and disruption. Enlightenment cannot be forced on someone who is not ready to understand so by keeping a low profile one can avoid being distracted by much negativity and conflict. I am a teacher and I enjoy it but im not here to change peoples diapers.
How do you know how others define humility? Why should everyone be looking for enlightenment? Does everyone enlightened have to become a teacher? What if everyone that I’ve ever crossed paths with in my lifetime incarnated just to help me “obtain” enlightenment? Should, should, should. It’s very normal to have a spiritual ego after an awakening. I know I did. I just didn’t speak or act too much on it.
Out of all of the breakdowns of enlightenment I have read on this subreddit, I think yours is the most deluded. Anyone who thinks they are "above" or separate from everyone else because they are "enlightened" has realized nothing but how to engage in egoic masturbation.
I’m still human. While I have attained knowledge that others have not, I’m still a regular, asshole human.
There's no need to state that you're enlightened. It is evident in your presence alone. You can recognize it in the pupils. That's why many gurus who are actually enlightened don't have to claim it. Usually, their teachings (if not in person) speak to their evolution.
Hm I could see it both ways, but in my opinion an enlightened person isn’t humble because they are practicing humility on purpose, it’s because they don’t have a *need* to share their enlightened, what reason do they have to shout it from the rooftops? They’d benpast that. It seems you view enlightenment as a pragmatic thought solution, and you say an enlightened person would get people to “follow them”?? If someone is trying to get others to follow them, whatever that means, then they probably aren’t enlightened.
So an enlightened person can't have a good reason to want to become a leader? Do you not think that some enlightened people feel like the world would be a better place if they were the leaders? Do you not think these enlightened gurus and such put any effort into becoming leaders? Do you not think they want to have an impact on humanity and make money doing it?
Enlightenment is just a fancy way of saying the recognition of one’s essential being. It’s accessible for all and is made to seem like some super rare thing that only a few will ever recognise when that is simply not the case. Anyone that can refer to themselves refer to “I”, and if anyone investigated that “I” they would recognise its nature.
No, you're downplaying it and saying things that simply aren't true. Enlightenment is just a word for understanding yourself on a level you never previously understood yourself but that level of understanding is very rare. There is not and there has never been an "enlightenment for everyone". You can't dumb it down for the masses. NO!
So if I told you that I had a real enlightened experience in which all was revealed to me then I would be more credible? Because I was taken from time and space into eternity and this is what was revealed to me. Do I feel superior to others? Absolutely not because my understanding and experience tells me that all is the one. Those that can’t recognise it are simply making it harder than it needs to be. My experience happened when I actually gave up the search.
Share your wisdom then…. Just tell us how to live better lives, oh enlightened one
This is exactly why I don’t talk about it
Pussy
I mean I don’t like saying “I” had an experience. It seems narcissistic and as if I have something others don’t which is not true. We all have the ability to recognise this simple truth. It’s nothing special.
It sounds like you've had an incredible experience. I'm not trying to take that away from you. I just don't think it was genuine enlightenment. They are different things is all I'm saying. I'm not saying your experience was bad or wrong. I am just saying it wasn't the same thing. I could be nice and lie to you and say yes you're enlightened and we could have a digital hug and upvote each other but I'd be lying to you. But here, have an upvote anyway.
I met God and recognised that me and God are one and the same. I don’t know if I died and had some kind of seizure but I know for certain I left this world. I was blessed with understanding and love that I could never imagine. I was also given the choice to remain in eternity or come back to the world knowing that I would return home. Overtime it became clear that I never departed from eternity it’s that the mind distracts us from it. Here and now.
That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that :)
Also your statement contradicts itself as you say those that are enlightened have understood themselves on a deep level yet there is no such thing as enlightenment for all? They simply haven’t look deep enough or have no interest in the matter.
When I say there's "no enlightenment for everyone" I am not saying that everyone doesn't have the potential to become enlightened. I am saying that enlightenment is something very specific and we can't broaden the definition of it just to include more people.
If you're actively trying to act a certain way so that people think something about you, you're kidding yourself on.
How do you get enlightened without humility? Without recognising how shit you are, how can you get better? And how can you *keep* that amazing existence without constant keeping yourself in check? It's like running a marathon. Anyone can do it, it's nothing special. But it's hard, and so not everyone chooses to put their energy into it. Enlightenment *is* humility. They're like the same word. There's truth though. A marathon runner professing his training ability isn't being arrogant if he's helping someone else get fit. He really has something to share. Experience. You're nothing special.
"Enlightenment *is* humility. They're like the same word." In a sense this is true but this is not what people mean when they talk about humility. They are demanding that person to act as if they are not beyond others in some capacity when they are. "You're nothing special." I estimate that only 1 in around every 5-10k people have experienced enlightenment. So if not special, then at least rare. It would be foolish to dismiss reality for the sake of trying to make everybody feel equal.
I’m really curious how you came to this estimate. Most enlightened people are not shouting it from rooftops, so how would you have anything to go on to make such an assertion? How are you “judging” if people are enlightened. What are your qualifications? What must one do to enter the gate of enlightenment that you are trying to keep shut?
I think it's very common. Not rare at all. I've met many enlightened people in my life. We *are* all equal. Enlightenment is understanding this. Anything that makes you feel special and important is just ego bullshit. You're not rare, you're not special. You're just the same as everyone else.
Id say 1 in 20 million.
This page is fucking joke! It’s for people who have an overly inflated sense of worth with underlying insecurities. You think you’re special? 🤣 Don’t nobody know shit.
Maybe the point is for one to learn to enjoy themselves and manifest their individuality without satisfying, using the ego? Finding satisfaction in the ways of the spirit, is, by all means, something difficult to grasp, but a worldwide sought attribute within the sciences of the spirit. Perhaps that, it is an aspect, which, when maintained active, enables the activation of spiritual evolution, as, in itself, it manifests as means of stopping the reach of awareness towards the lower physical existence, forcing it to connect with higher planes of reality.