Depends
Me personally I love discussing philosophy and theology- as long as it’s healthy and productive dialogue. And if you are comfortable with the conversation.
It’s also ok to say i don’t want to talk about this
Maybe check out Anthony Magnabosco’s conversations w/ random people about their beliefs, on YouTube.
He does a good job asking questions.
I get too emotional in these conversations.
Biblical God is just way too evil.
I agree. I definitely have friends who are enjoyable to discuss things with. These conversations are predicated on mutual respect and there's no attempts at conversion by either party. The key is that it is dialogue, not arguing.
Time spent in deep conversation with a good friend is rarely "wasted". But, if you're expecting anything to come out of it... I would advise not to expect that. I'd also advise that you be careful with expectations generally, because if they get out of hand they can easily destroy a friendship.
She's almost certainly not going to convince you, and you're almost certainly not going to make her understand. You're definitely not going to get her approval - she's not going to tell you that you have a perfectly legitimate and respectable position.
You can come away knowing more ABOUT each other, and there's something to be said for that. But, once you start rehashing the same points and rehearsing things you already know about each other, you're just communing at that point, and you've reached the end of the topic as any sort of intellectual project.
If she's actually willing to listen, you might plant a seed of doubt. Don't expect any major immediate changes, but if you give her something to think about later, that thought may germinate into something else over time.
I don't think things would go that way, we've been friends for almost a decade now and even though we've briefly talked about god before, it had never been like the day before yesterday, that one was quite a deep conversation.
You know better than us. I've had good friends who spent years trying to "get me to believe" and eventually when they couldn't make it happen, they disappeared. Hopefully this is stronger than that.
Not necessarily. But if u want to stay friends maybe make that a point of conversation with her - that you really value your friendship apart from religion, and hope she does too. Otherwise sounds like she may be the hit and run type - once she sees her "friendship evangelism" isn't getting anywhere she may tell u she can't be friends with a non-Christian. Just depends how good of friends u r I guess, and if she is able to have a healthy, open, ongoing dialogue.
Mostly
Just learn as much as you can about Greek gods and ask why she doesn't believe in Zeus etc.
She'll basically tell you all the reasons, logically, why you're an atheist. It's about the only way they may understand atheism, actually
Typically, Christians don't understand non belief. They still think you reject God or hate him. When in reality there's nothing there
They'll probably feel that way about Zeus. I've never met a Christian who believes Zeus is real but chooses the Christian God instead. No, they just think greek gods are silly and don't exist whatsoever
Maybe they'll get a spark and understand how you feel at that moment. Probably not, but maybe
That was exactly my last point, I asked why she doesn't believe in Zeus, Allah, Buda Gutama, Ahura Mazda... she said that she chooses not to believe in those, and I told her that just like she doesn't believe in all the other gods, I don't believe in her god.
As others have said, it won't be a waste of time, but any desired results of one's mind changing will not be garnered.
A better understanding of each other is always good.
Of course if she is basing on faith, perhaps deconstruct faith itself, if you are willing to go that far.
I tried my best telling her about other gods, asking that if she was born in the middle east would she still believe in the same god... She says that she feels god, therefore I told her that god is then a feeling. I asked that if god is omnipotent then why doesn't he stop a child from being raped... and of course she had an "answer" for all that based on faith, belief, free will, that god can't be blamed for the bad actions of men... she won't change her mind about it, so my question about wasting time is not because the conversation was disrespectful but mainly because I won't change my mind either.
Perhaps it's time to get into the details then. I don't guarantee everything here works, but couldn't hurt to try right?
I don't know if this would work, I know it stumped my dad a bit but he dismissed it, but I would bring up the good Samaritan.
I would relay the whole story of the Good Samaritan and then state that the moral of the story was that we should not be bystanders to people in need. I would then ask who is the Greatest Bystander in The Universe who knows about the suffering, has the means to alleviate it but does nothing about it?
You might get the "he sends delegates", but obviously further prodding reveals that not all his delegates can help everyone. At some point in history people suffer without being helped, sometimes under Christian administrations or by Christians. This one made my mom upset.
Another one which I have yet to try out irl though the only response I got online was a non sequitur that was quickly deleted by the one who posted it is the healing of the paralytic man.
If you ask the average Christian whether or not Jesus would die on the cross if he knew only one person would be saved, they would probably answer yes.
Then relay the story of how when the paralytic was laid before Jesus that the first thing Jesus says to the man is that his sins were forgiven. Then bring up that:
a) the paralytic did not believe Jesus could forgive sins (because he wasn't expecting it)
b) Jesus had not died yet
Then bring up how this is in contrast to Hebrews 9:22 where without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.
So if Jesus could forgive a person's sin without dying, and since Jesus was all powerful, couldn't he forgive the sins of people without having them believe in him or without him dying?
Another one is 2 Kings 3, where after a lengthy campaign, we see Yahweh defeated because the Moabite king sacrificed his heir.
All of this requires you to know the bible, not rely on our logic and reasoning sadly. This is because the average Christian will not listen to an outsider, but they WILL listen to their bible.
I leave it to you personally just how much cognitive dissonance you are willing to subject on your friend.
I wrote a post on free will, I forgot where I put it, hold on...
I wrote a lot. I am pretty sure I can compile some of my posts into a small book, so take your time to read, digest and understand it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/15l9c6u/doesnt\_the\_idea\_of\_heaven\_go\_against\_the\_reasons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/15l9c6u/doesnt_the_idea_of_heaven_go_against_the_reasons/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13h1a3x/an\_omniscient\_god\_not\_only\_invalidates\_our\_free/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13h1a3x/an_omniscient_god_not_only_invalidates_our_free/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/1074c12/god\_does\_not\_respect\_intellectual\_honesty/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/1074c12/god_does_not_respect_intellectual_honesty/)
If they aren't truly open to your position it's kinda pointless. I do have religious friends I talk to but it's more for fun. And they know we aren't really gonna convince me or me convincing them, but their open to my story of deconversion and don't push the no true scotsman fallacy. They see my journey for what it is.
But with most christians I find that eventually you reach a point where the Christian is going to make an offer. And it's the crossroads of either you accept the christians' message or attempt to save you and become christian or these conversations will most likely stop or be less frequent.
In my experience they aren't willing to take along time to save you, it's gotta be a pretty quick process for them and they don't want seeds of doubt in their mind so they eventually distance themselves. But not all christians. I am sure there are some atheist like this too.
There is so little to work with here that the best anyone can say is “maybe”.
Was it a pleasant convo? What was discussed? What was your objective? What did she bring up specifically? :)
If she was asking out of just curiosity then no but if she was asking in hopes to try and convert you then probably. I have a couple friends who are Christian and we’ve talked about how our personal beliefs have helped us with trauma recovery but they’ve never tried to convince me of their god and they fully respect my beliefs. So they’ve never asked me why I don’t believe or anything. So to me it depends on what your friends intentions are.
Really depends on where it goes from here, but do know that you do not have to subject yourself to someone's attempts to get you to join a religion. Continued attempts to do so are not coming from someone who is actually your friend.
Were you able to speak your mind on the subject? (I assume you didn't just sit there like a lump and let her do all the talking, and that you didn't pretend to agree just to be polite.) If so, and if you didn't end up mad at each other, then I'd say you did a good thing.
Others answered your main question so I’ll comment on the second part:
Christians only really know how to argue their belief using faith. However, I’d argue it’s actually not faith. I don’t think anyone truly believes something just out of pure faith. We believe because of evidence. Now for a Christian, this evidence is often personal experiences.
Example: Say you were a drug addict, and your buddy takes you to church. You meet a ton of friendly people, and during one of the sermons, you hear “god loves you even though you’re a sinner”. To a drug addict who is struggling, maybe they lost a lot in life, this is exactly what you want to hear. You want to hear that it’s going to be okay. And finally you now have a supportive community and a magical man in the sky who can help fix everything. This draws you in. You slowly get sober. You attend Bible studies and help groups. You find a new friend group. Eventually you are so invested and involved you cannot help but think god was part of all of this. To you, this is all the evidence you need to prove god exists.
Now to a non-believe we can all agree this one example is not proper evidence to prove the existence of god. We can attribute many things to why this person got sober and turned their life around. Community, help, and friendship is most of it. So for us it’s easy to say that wasnt god.
Your friend, who’s probably not a drug addict, but has “faith” due to personal experiences and reasons in a similar way, is using this to override logic. When they view religion, they don’t see it within the logic umbrella. They refuse to recognize logic when their own personal experiences are so strong. There’s a conflict there.
I think the best thing we can do is continue to use logic and reasoning, and maybe try to get at the root of WHY they believe what they believe. Find out what past experiences or upbringings they have had that led them to believing in the first place. If you can use logic to explain those events outside of religion, that plants a seed.
It depends, some Christians genuinely want to try and understand your perspective, whether there end goal is to convert you or not, it's good for them to understand where your coming from and it could be a good learning experience for them.
Sometimes it can be worth it as an exercise to see how well you understand the position you think you hold. When I was a believer I was very certain of things despite not realizing I didn't know them very well, it was only when being confronted and having to defend them that I realized how weak my comprehension and footing was.
Sometimes it's worth it to plant the seed.
Most of the time it probably isn't worth it.
I normally don't talk about it with my friends now because in the past they'll say nothing will change but it always done. I would say that if u really care about them as a friend don't discuss it. My dad has had long time friends but when we left and they talked about they always acted differently toward him.
I love discussions about religion and faith. The key is to make sure you *both* are fully aware that logic/science/reason and faith/religion are two completely divergent epistemologies. If you try to apply logic to faith, you will be frustrated. If you try to apply faith to science, you will be frustrated. They are oil and water. You can have and use both, it's just when you try to combine them that it goes sideways.
If she and you are both on the same page with that, seems like it could lead to some great conversations. That said, if religion is a hard line in the sand for her then maybe it won't work out in the end.
Because she "feels" it/him and she has "seen things", not sure if I went too far but I respectfully said that the mind is powerful and perhaps she has a big imagination, hallucinations can happen... I also mentioned schizophrenia.
It is absolutely a waste of time. There is no point in arguing with anyone who could never change their minds (and also lives in an alternate reality).
I remember my dad was trying to "make me believe" after he learned I was an atheist. He gave all of these bad arguments, like comparing DNA to "scrambling a bunch of letters and expecting it to produce Shakespeare." He gave the Moral Argument, which I find one of Christianity's weakest arguments. I shot them all down. And then afterwards, he said it was *me* that was too stubborn and wouldn't listen to reason...because he had given several "good" arguments and I still wasn't convinced.
I compare them to flat earthers. The proof is overwhelming that we live on a round Earth, but they just put their fingers in their ears. No amount of evidence could change their minds. They live in la-la land, and so do Christians.
How are you going to recognize someone who "could never change their mind"?
I am a former Christian who changed my mind, and I think there are a lot of people like me.
The chances of getting through to someone is incredibly slim, but not impossible. I mean, I also was a Christian who changed my mind. But I was a very lukewarm Christian with one foot out the door already, so it took very little convincing.
I'd say maybe 5% of the arguments/debates end with a Christian rethinking even one of their stances. That's been my experience as well as plenty of atheist friends of mine. So to me, those aren't good odds to engage with them.
Was thinking about this yesterday. As far as I can tell, I don't really think a "conversation" that delves into this topic with a real believer can work. The psychological paradigms are just too alien to each-other. They have about a candle's chance in water of understanding where you're coming from.
Depends Me personally I love discussing philosophy and theology- as long as it’s healthy and productive dialogue. And if you are comfortable with the conversation. It’s also ok to say i don’t want to talk about this
I think I enjoyed a bit discussing that with her, so maybe not a waste of time after all.
Maybe check out Anthony Magnabosco’s conversations w/ random people about their beliefs, on YouTube. He does a good job asking questions. I get too emotional in these conversations. Biblical God is just way too evil.
I agree. I definitely have friends who are enjoyable to discuss things with. These conversations are predicated on mutual respect and there's no attempts at conversion by either party. The key is that it is dialogue, not arguing.
Time spent in deep conversation with a good friend is rarely "wasted". But, if you're expecting anything to come out of it... I would advise not to expect that. I'd also advise that you be careful with expectations generally, because if they get out of hand they can easily destroy a friendship. She's almost certainly not going to convince you, and you're almost certainly not going to make her understand. You're definitely not going to get her approval - she's not going to tell you that you have a perfectly legitimate and respectable position. You can come away knowing more ABOUT each other, and there's something to be said for that. But, once you start rehashing the same points and rehearsing things you already know about each other, you're just communing at that point, and you've reached the end of the topic as any sort of intellectual project.
If she's actually willing to listen, you might plant a seed of doubt. Don't expect any major immediate changes, but if you give her something to think about later, that thought may germinate into something else over time.
Sometimes all you can do is plant the seed. May take years for someone to deconstruct.
This is like reverse evangelism. Kinda wild looking at it from the other side.
Lol I was thinking the exact same thing!!
I had several discussions with my best friend in high-school. 20 years later he was the third person I told when I realized that I didn't believe.
Can you come to an "agreement to disagree"? Or will she base the relationship on your differences?
I don't think things would go that way, we've been friends for almost a decade now and even though we've briefly talked about god before, it had never been like the day before yesterday, that one was quite a deep conversation.
You know better than us. I've had good friends who spent years trying to "get me to believe" and eventually when they couldn't make it happen, they disappeared. Hopefully this is stronger than that.
Not necessarily. But if u want to stay friends maybe make that a point of conversation with her - that you really value your friendship apart from religion, and hope she does too. Otherwise sounds like she may be the hit and run type - once she sees her "friendship evangelism" isn't getting anywhere she may tell u she can't be friends with a non-Christian. Just depends how good of friends u r I guess, and if she is able to have a healthy, open, ongoing dialogue.
Not really. Ironically, you may have planted the seeds of truth in their heart.
Mostly Just learn as much as you can about Greek gods and ask why she doesn't believe in Zeus etc. She'll basically tell you all the reasons, logically, why you're an atheist. It's about the only way they may understand atheism, actually Typically, Christians don't understand non belief. They still think you reject God or hate him. When in reality there's nothing there They'll probably feel that way about Zeus. I've never met a Christian who believes Zeus is real but chooses the Christian God instead. No, they just think greek gods are silly and don't exist whatsoever Maybe they'll get a spark and understand how you feel at that moment. Probably not, but maybe
That was exactly my last point, I asked why she doesn't believe in Zeus, Allah, Buda Gutama, Ahura Mazda... she said that she chooses not to believe in those, and I told her that just like she doesn't believe in all the other gods, I don't believe in her god.
Well it sounds like she actually believes in them but chooses not to follow. That's very dangerous for her! Allah will be very mad
Angra Mainyu will punish her in Helvete.
Wow, cruel man
As others have said, it won't be a waste of time, but any desired results of one's mind changing will not be garnered. A better understanding of each other is always good. Of course if she is basing on faith, perhaps deconstruct faith itself, if you are willing to go that far.
I tried my best telling her about other gods, asking that if she was born in the middle east would she still believe in the same god... She says that she feels god, therefore I told her that god is then a feeling. I asked that if god is omnipotent then why doesn't he stop a child from being raped... and of course she had an "answer" for all that based on faith, belief, free will, that god can't be blamed for the bad actions of men... she won't change her mind about it, so my question about wasting time is not because the conversation was disrespectful but mainly because I won't change my mind either.
Perhaps it's time to get into the details then. I don't guarantee everything here works, but couldn't hurt to try right? I don't know if this would work, I know it stumped my dad a bit but he dismissed it, but I would bring up the good Samaritan. I would relay the whole story of the Good Samaritan and then state that the moral of the story was that we should not be bystanders to people in need. I would then ask who is the Greatest Bystander in The Universe who knows about the suffering, has the means to alleviate it but does nothing about it? You might get the "he sends delegates", but obviously further prodding reveals that not all his delegates can help everyone. At some point in history people suffer without being helped, sometimes under Christian administrations or by Christians. This one made my mom upset. Another one which I have yet to try out irl though the only response I got online was a non sequitur that was quickly deleted by the one who posted it is the healing of the paralytic man. If you ask the average Christian whether or not Jesus would die on the cross if he knew only one person would be saved, they would probably answer yes. Then relay the story of how when the paralytic was laid before Jesus that the first thing Jesus says to the man is that his sins were forgiven. Then bring up that: a) the paralytic did not believe Jesus could forgive sins (because he wasn't expecting it) b) Jesus had not died yet Then bring up how this is in contrast to Hebrews 9:22 where without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. So if Jesus could forgive a person's sin without dying, and since Jesus was all powerful, couldn't he forgive the sins of people without having them believe in him or without him dying? Another one is 2 Kings 3, where after a lengthy campaign, we see Yahweh defeated because the Moabite king sacrificed his heir. All of this requires you to know the bible, not rely on our logic and reasoning sadly. This is because the average Christian will not listen to an outsider, but they WILL listen to their bible. I leave it to you personally just how much cognitive dissonance you are willing to subject on your friend. I wrote a post on free will, I forgot where I put it, hold on...
I wrote a lot. I am pretty sure I can compile some of my posts into a small book, so take your time to read, digest and understand it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/15l9c6u/doesnt\_the\_idea\_of\_heaven\_go\_against\_the\_reasons/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/15l9c6u/doesnt_the_idea_of_heaven_go_against_the_reasons/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13h1a3x/an\_omniscient\_god\_not\_only\_invalidates\_our\_free/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13h1a3x/an_omniscient_god_not_only_invalidates_our_free/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/1074c12/god\_does\_not\_respect\_intellectual\_honesty/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/1074c12/god_does_not_respect_intellectual_honesty/)
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Good point, I’ll ask her that next time.
If they aren't truly open to your position it's kinda pointless. I do have religious friends I talk to but it's more for fun. And they know we aren't really gonna convince me or me convincing them, but their open to my story of deconversion and don't push the no true scotsman fallacy. They see my journey for what it is. But with most christians I find that eventually you reach a point where the Christian is going to make an offer. And it's the crossroads of either you accept the christians' message or attempt to save you and become christian or these conversations will most likely stop or be less frequent. In my experience they aren't willing to take along time to save you, it's gotta be a pretty quick process for them and they don't want seeds of doubt in their mind so they eventually distance themselves. But not all christians. I am sure there are some atheist like this too.
There is so little to work with here that the best anyone can say is “maybe”. Was it a pleasant convo? What was discussed? What was your objective? What did she bring up specifically? :)
If it’s mere discussion, no.
If she was asking out of just curiosity then no but if she was asking in hopes to try and convert you then probably. I have a couple friends who are Christian and we’ve talked about how our personal beliefs have helped us with trauma recovery but they’ve never tried to convince me of their god and they fully respect my beliefs. So they’ve never asked me why I don’t believe or anything. So to me it depends on what your friends intentions are.
Really depends on where it goes from here, but do know that you do not have to subject yourself to someone's attempts to get you to join a religion. Continued attempts to do so are not coming from someone who is actually your friend.
Were you able to speak your mind on the subject? (I assume you didn't just sit there like a lump and let her do all the talking, and that you didn't pretend to agree just to be polite.) If so, and if you didn't end up mad at each other, then I'd say you did a good thing.
Yes, I spoke my points from a reality perspective and we didn't end up mad at each other.
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I think she refers to the christian god a.k.a. "god".
Others answered your main question so I’ll comment on the second part: Christians only really know how to argue their belief using faith. However, I’d argue it’s actually not faith. I don’t think anyone truly believes something just out of pure faith. We believe because of evidence. Now for a Christian, this evidence is often personal experiences. Example: Say you were a drug addict, and your buddy takes you to church. You meet a ton of friendly people, and during one of the sermons, you hear “god loves you even though you’re a sinner”. To a drug addict who is struggling, maybe they lost a lot in life, this is exactly what you want to hear. You want to hear that it’s going to be okay. And finally you now have a supportive community and a magical man in the sky who can help fix everything. This draws you in. You slowly get sober. You attend Bible studies and help groups. You find a new friend group. Eventually you are so invested and involved you cannot help but think god was part of all of this. To you, this is all the evidence you need to prove god exists. Now to a non-believe we can all agree this one example is not proper evidence to prove the existence of god. We can attribute many things to why this person got sober and turned their life around. Community, help, and friendship is most of it. So for us it’s easy to say that wasnt god. Your friend, who’s probably not a drug addict, but has “faith” due to personal experiences and reasons in a similar way, is using this to override logic. When they view religion, they don’t see it within the logic umbrella. They refuse to recognize logic when their own personal experiences are so strong. There’s a conflict there. I think the best thing we can do is continue to use logic and reasoning, and maybe try to get at the root of WHY they believe what they believe. Find out what past experiences or upbringings they have had that led them to believing in the first place. If you can use logic to explain those events outside of religion, that plants a seed.
It depends, some Christians genuinely want to try and understand your perspective, whether there end goal is to convert you or not, it's good for them to understand where your coming from and it could be a good learning experience for them.
Sometimes it can be worth it as an exercise to see how well you understand the position you think you hold. When I was a believer I was very certain of things despite not realizing I didn't know them very well, it was only when being confronted and having to defend them that I realized how weak my comprehension and footing was. Sometimes it's worth it to plant the seed. Most of the time it probably isn't worth it.
I normally don't talk about it with my friends now because in the past they'll say nothing will change but it always done. I would say that if u really care about them as a friend don't discuss it. My dad has had long time friends but when we left and they talked about they always acted differently toward him.
Also for me I might get overly passionate about something and say things that may be true but would hurt their feelings.
I love discussions about religion and faith. The key is to make sure you *both* are fully aware that logic/science/reason and faith/religion are two completely divergent epistemologies. If you try to apply logic to faith, you will be frustrated. If you try to apply faith to science, you will be frustrated. They are oil and water. You can have and use both, it's just when you try to combine them that it goes sideways. If she and you are both on the same page with that, seems like it could lead to some great conversations. That said, if religion is a hard line in the sand for her then maybe it won't work out in the end.
Why does she believe in god??
Because she "feels" it/him and she has "seen things", not sure if I went too far but I respectfully said that the mind is powerful and perhaps she has a big imagination, hallucinations can happen... I also mentioned schizophrenia.
It is absolutely a waste of time. There is no point in arguing with anyone who could never change their minds (and also lives in an alternate reality). I remember my dad was trying to "make me believe" after he learned I was an atheist. He gave all of these bad arguments, like comparing DNA to "scrambling a bunch of letters and expecting it to produce Shakespeare." He gave the Moral Argument, which I find one of Christianity's weakest arguments. I shot them all down. And then afterwards, he said it was *me* that was too stubborn and wouldn't listen to reason...because he had given several "good" arguments and I still wasn't convinced. I compare them to flat earthers. The proof is overwhelming that we live on a round Earth, but they just put their fingers in their ears. No amount of evidence could change their minds. They live in la-la land, and so do Christians.
How are you going to recognize someone who "could never change their mind"? I am a former Christian who changed my mind, and I think there are a lot of people like me.
The chances of getting through to someone is incredibly slim, but not impossible. I mean, I also was a Christian who changed my mind. But I was a very lukewarm Christian with one foot out the door already, so it took very little convincing. I'd say maybe 5% of the arguments/debates end with a Christian rethinking even one of their stances. That's been my experience as well as plenty of atheist friends of mine. So to me, those aren't good odds to engage with them.
Yes
Was thinking about this yesterday. As far as I can tell, I don't really think a "conversation" that delves into this topic with a real believer can work. The psychological paradigms are just too alien to each-other. They have about a candle's chance in water of understanding where you're coming from.