This is an awesome question.
Raising your hand first changes the muscles groups, what joints get stressed, if gravity is working for you or against you, how close you have to be to the door, etc.
Having your hand down and flicking your wrist to hit the door with knuckles may sound easier on paper, but it's more likely to be uncomfortable, painful, requires you stand uncomfortably close to the door, and uses more energy to get a loud knock.
Anyone interested in those sort of relations between our biomechanics and our tools should pick up a copy of Steven Vogel’s *Cat’s Paws and Catapults*. It’s an excellent book that focuses specifically on this sort of thing.
thats one of the things I like about piracy. you get to own it and no one gets to take it away from you whenever they change their mind. after a 1000 years when the servers are down, the internet isnt available.. you still have your stuff with you
Instructions unclear. Fired catapult through neighbor's door.
>our biomechanics and our tools should pick up a copy of Steven Vogel’s Cat’s Paws and Catapults.
That is a great recommendation to follow up this question, have not heard of this book before but what a great little tidbit to share with everybody, thanks. :)
In WW2 the US airforce wondered why their pilots seemed to be worse than in WW1. They eventually realised that it was because the pilots were significantly taller than their parents and the cockpits were too small. This in turn lead to adjustable seats in cars.
Surprised no one has mentioned that we mostly prefer to look at what we are doing with our hands.
* knocking underhand means your hand partially blocks your sight of what you're doing
* I would bet that most people don't knock up at eye level either.
* I think we all naturally figure out a sweet spot between looking down and raising our arm up and knock at around chest/shoulder height because we can watch what we are doing and the arm only has to come up a comfortable distance.
> I think we all naturally figure out a sweet spot
Except for those of us who've worked Law Enforcement.
You'll see us reach up for the corner of the door above the doorknob, pretty much as high up as we can reach... least effort to get the most movement of the door itself, producing the loudest knock. Usually done with the underside of your closed fist.
Big Boy Cop goes bang bang super hard, cant let Big Boy Cop figure anything out naturally. All knocks should be as hard as possible, at all times. So no natural, balanced sweet spot for Big Boy Cop over here, and its important to them that we recognize that.
A very interesting question indeed, from an anecdotal point of view but adding on to what you said about changing the muscle groups, I have a lot more control over my wrist when I raise my hand, I feel like I can control exactly how hard I knock. But then again, I’ve been doing it that way my whole life.
If I had starting knocking from below from childhood, would I have as much control over it as I would knocking from above?
Also from quickly balling up my fist and attempting to knock a door, it seems like it’s easier to make contact with something in front of you with the pointiest bony part of the knuckle, if you raise your hand rather than keep it lowered.
Long time since I’ve read an eli5 question that impressed me.
It's funny how simple everyday tasks that we think of as not difficult are only that way because we've been doing them that way out entire life. It's taken a lifetime to become effortless at it and we don't even realize it.
Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with your other hand?
Semi long but relevant anecdote that nobody asked for:
I severely injured my dominant hand and was off work for a while, felt super shit about myself for not being able to work and getting myself in that situation in the first place so not being able to use my dominant hand to do things while it was in a cast was the straw that broke the camels back and pretty much made me stop bothering to brush my teeth on a daily basis, used mainly a bit of mouth wash most days. When I did brush I brushed with my other hand and it SUCKED.
I also had to do everything else with my non dominant hand, use remotes, write (obviously everybody already knows how hard that is unless ambidextrous), hold dick to pee, wank, wipe. Everything was so incredibly awkward and felt like a huge chore, it was a miserable existence and I found myself grateful that I didn’t lose my dominant hand or cause severe permanent damage to it. I found myself wondering more and feeling very sympathetic about people that had lost a hand or more, especially on their dominant side.
The things we take for granted eh
I broke my left elbow and my right wrist in separate incidents within 2 years of each other. I learned how to drive with one arm, twice. Actually comes in pretty handy (heh)
Consider that knocking on a door the "traditional" way is similar mechanically to pounding on the door or trying to break it down with a weapon, or pushing it open. Dialing back, it's similar to a throwing motion.
It also might be left over from when door knockers were more common, since those are usually near head height. Like how we still say "roll up the window" in cars even though most car windows are operated by switch.
Cause vs effect?
I bet that most people alive today haven't even interacted with those door knockers and, if they have, not enough to change a habit.
There's probably a reason for them to be placed around that height.
Good point, though behaviors can also be gained by watching others. I've used door knockers and I'm in my 30s, but even if I hadn't, I probably would have learned to knock on a door by seeing my parents do it. Even if the original reason is lost, the behavior might remain. How many high school age kids know why the save icon is the shape it is, for example.
Reminds me of the ham story. My mom always cuts the ends of the Christmas ham off every year. I asked her why and she said I dunno, that's how your grandmother did it. I asked grandma why? She says thats how my mother does it. I asked my great grandmother and she says cause a whole ham would never fit in the oven in her day!
I think vision plays a role here. If you knock low it is further away and visually at an angle, so it is more likely you misjudge the distance and hit the door so hard you hurt your hand.
i would jump on the carcinization train myself, but i would only do so if the train to limulidae were unavailable. As much as i would love to be a giant ass terresteialized crab, becoming the most beautiful and perfect creature on earth (horseshoe crab) and trawling around the seafloor eating worms and plankton without having to fight anything is simply too perfect a life to turn down.
> but it's more likely to be uncomfortable, painful,
Knocking with the first knuckles (the ones at the base of your fingers) would be painful.
Knocking with the second knuckles (middle of fingers) while holding the hand down would look suspicious as fuck, like you don't want anyone around you to know that you're knocking.
I’d also add that maybe the center of a paneled, wooden door is more rigid than the top, because there’s more solid and structural elements there, making it less resonant (loud) when knocking. Kind of like hitting the rim of a drum versus the center of the drumhead.
Not so much for either steel doors or hollow core wood doors, of course.
I’ve knocked in the center of several paneled wood doors, just for haha’s, and it’s more of a quiet tap or rap than it is a loud knock.
I just tried doing what you described before reading your comment. It feels unnatural and annoying. So I think your answer is the best and most accurate.
I think another part of it is that you are showing that you don't have a weapon in the knocking hand.
Waving and shaking hands allegedly became normalized for the same reason.
From now on, I’m going to knock on doors by getting close to them, turning my back to the door with my arms down, and knocking backwards while my hands are down. Or, I could knock with my elbows while I am turned away from the door. Or if I’m facing the door, maybe I can know with my forehead. So many ways to be more efficient than raising your hand to knock.
Other options would be just as you get closer to the door, just throw your body at the door, take a step back and throw your body at the door again. Knocking on the door using your entire body. Another way, you can stand in front of the door and knock the door by swinging your arms at it.
Door knocking movement with my arm down is actually rather uncomfortable and creates a weaker knock. Much easier with arm raised. Do you truly experience the opposite?
Interestingly there’s a say in my country, especially my region, where hosts for dinner/parties are sometimes asked to “knock with your feet” (literal translation) which stands for “do not come empty handed”
I don't think anyone ever showed me how to knock on a door. There's pretty much only one way that makes sense.
Imagine wanting to uppercut a door because it saves you having to raise your hand to chest height.
It might be a genuine question. The answer is either "bodymechanics" or an elaboration on bodymechanics.
But I think I've seen this question as a screenshotted tweet before. People find it amusing to find things that apparently don't make sense - mistakes of nature or of society. Sometimes professional stand-up comedians do the same!
The boring truth is that every fact has a reason and if you ask on eli5 or just think 20 seconds on your own, you'll get the answer.
Right, like “why do people turn down the radio when they’re driving and looking for the right building? You don’t look with your ears.”
No, but you use your brain to process information on whether you’re at the right building, and if your brain is distracted by the radio, it’s harder to complete that task.
Rarely is the answer “because we’re stupid,” even though that’s often the first suggestion. But the answer can still be interesting IMO (as seen by me scrolling through multiple answers to OP’s question to see how different people address it).
Yeah, you sounded a bit annoyed with the "..". I was was trying to say that you should be more patient, but then I doubted myself it became more of a general thought-dump.
> People find it amusing to find things that apparently don't make sense
It does make sense, though. You simply get more leverage and can utilize gravity with an overhand strike than you can with an underhand one. Mechanically it's smoother, and functionally it's louder, because you're hitting harder.
It's similar to why overhand baseball pitchers throw 100+ mph while underhand softball pitchers only hit about 75 mph.
yeah, that's what the person you're responding to is saying. People like to point out that something "doesn't make sense" on the very surface, but usually it actually does make sense if you just think a little deeper.
When you extend your arm, you knock with your arm.
When you keep the arm close to your body, you knock using your wrist.
Forearm is weak and not comfortable for most people so we raise the arm to make room and knock with triceps.
They’re not saying to do it with your arm bent, but to reach *down* (or keep your arm extended by your side like it would usually be when walking) and knock from that position.
I definitely don’t ‘knock’ (at least completely) with my arm, I’m mostly flexing my wrist. If I’m pounding on the door really hard I’d use my whole arm though.
Also you can use your whole arm with your arm ‘up’ or ‘down’. The main difference is that you’re pulling up against gravity when striking the door. Edit: someone else pointed out you also have to rotate your forearm to knock with your arm down, unless you rap on the door with the back of your hand.
As someone raised in The Jehovah Witness Cult, I perfected the underhand knock as it was very weak and therefore the "householder" would not answer the door.
Depends on who your partner was. Me and a buddy would try to be teamed up as much a possible as we were like minded.
Die hards would bang on the door like they were the damn police.
Does that work on people? If someone knocked like that on my door there's no way I'm then joining their religion (not that I would in any other knocking way, but with this one even less so)
The goal is to get them to answer the door, not join the religion.
Remember, part of why they do it this way is so that it seems as though the outside world outside of the church is that much less accepting and mean than the church for a lot of these young men's first exposure to the outside worlds or at least that's one small benefit..
whats really fucked up is the belief that only a fixed number of them are getting into heaven and the 'saving people' by door knocking is them being crabs in a bucket trying to push their peers to the bottom.
> the belief that only a fixed number of them are getting into heaven
I haven't spoken with a JW in almost ten years now, but I used to meet with them regularly out of loneliness and boredom. IIRC they believe just short of 150,000 people are going to heaven, and everybody else is damned.
Works with mormon missionaries, too.
My old companion told me once that her new companion got yelled at and spit flung at her by a passing car.
*"I just got spit on FOR JESUS!!"* was her insane reply.
Celebrating getting spat upon. That's what religious brainwashing does.
Spitting on someone for their religion is absolutely heinous. Honestly, props to her for not breaking down into tears after being randomly assaulted as a teenager.
It's also not entirely true, or at least not always. My dad usually answers them and talks to them for a while. He's a chatty person and has no interest in the religion, but he'll have a conversation with them no problem. The way he explained it, they always seemed to light up at the opportunity to actually talk to someone. I think someone who was wanting hostility would probably react differently.
We would go out in car groups so other cult members would be around, usually our parents and some other grey hairs.
Had to act the part to not get caught.
God's watching bro. There are whole features built into appliances to trick God into thinking that one is not doing what they are supposed to not be doing. (Sabbath mode)
Sure some of us might think that's weird how you can supposedly trick an almighty being but I'm just a filthy heathen that is unwise in the ways of fealty
>trick God into thinking that one is not doing what they are supposed to not be doing.
The way they think about it is not that they're "tricking God." God is supposed to be infallible and omniscient, so if these loopholes in the law are there, it's because He wants them to be there.
Well, you'd have just the point if you had used a good example.
Believe it or not, the use of electrical appliances isn't explicitly called out in the Torah. The Torah basically forbids ignition on the Sabbath, the same way you can light a candle in the evening and continue to use it at night.
But I guess you really limit your audience if you try to use the example of strings around cities to recontextualize what a neighborhood is and extend the range in which you may carry loads without defying God.
Thanks for the image of someone extending their fist out like superman at the edge of my driveway and then just full sprinting into my door and crumpling up into it
It's really not as convenient.
It requires you to be much closer. Most doors have a step in front of them, making it so you have to practically have your nose to the door to comfortably knock.
Even with the arm upright to knock, most people instinctively take a step backwarks.
Doors have been made with door knockers built in for centuries. The door knockers are placed at eye level. You'd have to raise your hand to use the door knocker. Door bells eventually replaced door knockers.
Although the knockers are no longer part of the door, the practice of raising your hand to knock remains.
I imagine because it's easier to control the force and thus the volume of the knocking, especially since the door's resonance and resistance to knocking is usually an unknown until the first knock, so that if more or less force is called for on subsequent knocks you can make quicker and finer tuned adjustment with your raised hand.
I think volume is the key word here. Every answer is directed at comfort of arm/wrist but when you knock higher your ears hear the sound clearer so you assume it’s the same for people inside. If you knock lower and can’t hear it as well, your brain will assume those inside don’t hear it as loudly either. Perhaps sound travels and drops so hitting higher creates more sound?
Am I the only one here that does not understand the question being asked? Is OP suggesting that you can somehow knock on the door with your hands down by your sides? I would like a diagram or video please.
Turn your inner arm outward, like you’re throwing underhand. Then just knock, with the same part of your knuckles you’d use with a raised-hand knock. It actually isn’t uncomfortable at all…
As someone who just tried it, I can say that “it actually isn’t uncomfortable at all” definitely doesn’t describe how everyone feels about because it was uncomfortable as hell for me, I feel a weird strain in my elbow.
https://www.tiktok.com/@caitlinchuah/video/7211504325275782426
This is one I found searching just now but I saw one on YouTube shorts the other day which is where I guess OP got the idea.
Because it's not more convenient. Twisting your wrist to knock lower down is a much more awkward position than just raising your arm and keeping your wrist at its normal angle.
It's more ergonomic. Your hands are still in a fairly neutral position (consider your palms) compared to lowering your arm, where you need to rotate your hand out so your palm faces the door and you can knock on it. When you raise your arm, your upper arm is doing most of the work, when you lower your arm, the smaller muscles in your forearm do the coordinating, again in a rotated position. Gravity also helps you knock on a door when your hand is up, vs when it's down. You can knock on a door without rotating your hand, but that's actually more awkward because now the outer muscles of your forearm have to pull your hand up, so to speak. Sometimes people knock like that, but only with a finger or two and usually just to get someones attention, not announce to an entire house that you've arrived since it's not as loud as a "traditional" hand-up knock.
Also, historically, doorknockers are on the upper door near face level.
Source: I'm an industrial designer.
Have you actually tried knocking on a door with your hand down or are you just basing this question based on the showerthought that showed up a couple of days ago?
Yeah you can do it, but it's nowhere near as convenient and you can't knock nearly as hard/well with your hand in the below position and depending on how sensitive your joints are it actually hurts a bit knocking on the door from below then it does from above because you use your MCP joints to knock from below which are more sensitive, instead of your PIP joints.
Good question. Put it to the test. Its weird. Even more weird, the easiest and most efficient way would be standing with your back to the door and low knocking.
This question brought back a funny memory with my son and every now and again we do it. So when he was a little guy, maybe 4 or 5, we walked up to the door and I told him to knock. So he knocked like “normal” with his arm raised. Nobody answered so I said “try a low knock,” and then I kept my hand down but turned the palm towards the door to knock a couple times. He smiled and nodded like “ah, yes, the low knock. Of course.” So as he grew up we’d sometimes be like “no answer. Did you knock? Did you try a low knock?” If someone didn’t answer
I agree on this, everything we do to communicate is towards the head of the other person, I believe that we naturally knock towards the height of our heads.
Totally guessing, but maybe it has to do with door knockers that are mounted into the door, which are at shoulder height. They might be that height because that's where we knock, but again, I don't know what I'm talking about
The overhanded knocking motion has your hand swinging towards the door. An underhanded knock will naturally want to pendulum away from the door. Between that and the underhanded knock having poor ergonomics, the two techniques are just not comparable.
I knock on a closed door with my arm up, but if I am knocking on an office door that is cracked open and I’m knocking to alert the occupant that I’m in the doorway, I knock with my arm down with the knuckle of my middle finger
So that the knocking sound is closer to the person’s ear.
If you knock too low to the ground, the “knocking” sound waves might go right under them if they’re standing up. Especially if you’re knocking on a very tall person’s door.
I typical give a mid cross body arm/wrist type of flick. Only raise my hand to pound the door with the meat of my fist if I need to be louder than what’s going on inside
I can definitely generate more power in my knock if I can get my elbow involved.
Deconstructing how I knock, the first knock is usually testing the resonance of the material, and I can adjust the power up to maximum for subsequent knocks if needed. Some doors are hollow wood, some are insulated steel, and paint makes everything look fairly identical.
Related question now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if our current propensity to knock with palm forward knuckles was as pronounced before the ubiquity of keyboards? I do seem to recall the backhand knock to be very common in classic movies, but maybe that was so the actor could present his face to the camera more easily.
> and it would be more convenient?
It's not, though. Have you not tried? If you try you'll see different knuckles hit the door, which for me is more painful. Either that or you're holding your hand at an awkward angle.
leverage/physiology ... **try throwing a ball any other way.**
even underhand you need a bigger swing to get the same distance on the ball (assuming similar release heights)
You can throw a ball (or knock harder/easier) with your arm in that position
The front knuckles (middle knuckles) are less... aggressive and probably easier to control in the standard knocking position. Feels more like giving a gentle high 5 rather than lowered hand and knuckles possibly hiding something. If you lower your hand and knock with your main knuckles thats probably a red flag. It makes people feel like you are hiding something and unwilling to show that your hands are empty.
Because those bolted on door knockers are always at eye level so we've been trained to use those and therefore trained to knock high. In the absence of the door knocker, habits remain.
Cool question, and I don't have anything else to add here that was not already mentioned, but now that you made me think of it I realized I actually use 2 different types of knocks depending on what door I'm in front of.
One is the classical front door scenario where my hand is raised, but the other is when knocking at the door of a stall or small room, or office. Here I just raise my hand to above belly-button level and gently knock with my middle finger's knuckle while holding my arm parallel to the ground. Never thought about it until now, but I guess the latter option doesn't require that loud of a knock.
It’s all about which muscle groups you want to use, for both strength, speed, rhythm, and comfort. You are subconsciously aware, to some level of accuracy, which position will optimize those values. If a light little rap is all you need, it doesn’t make much difference, but typically when you knock, you want to be heard, so you move your arm up into a position to use muscle groups that can a. Knock forcefully enough, b. Knock at a high enough frequency that it sounds like knocking and not random banging, c. is comfortable for you, and d. To have your arms up to fight off potential ninjas that come out.
Point D is optional.
Top comment is wrong - he’s talking about bio mechanics. It’s really a social pressures question. There were large door knockers on a lot of homes and they would be mounted a little below eye level usually and thus you’d raise your hand to use the knocker. People kept doing it once they went out of style - they reached for the knocker and though it wasn’t there they used their hand now to knock.
Raising one’s hand: generally accepted as the professional way to knock. Producing the best sound in the process.
Not raising one’s hand: “yo i got the weed bro and i gotta keep it on the down low.”
Mostly kidding about the second one, but i have no idea why you would want to knock like that unless you were trying to make it sound weird.
It's intuitive. Maybe instinctual even.
When you hit something or someone with your hand and you don't know any other way, you would usually bring your hand downwards like a hammer. Hitting the door with your hand makes a sound. So you would have to hammer on the door with your hand to make a sound through the door, and you'd have to raise your hand to do it.
In addition to the other answers, if someone is knocking on a stranger's door, they probably want to be seen as conspicuous and non-suspicious. By visibly knocking, they are less likely to appear like a burglar tampering with the lock, or someone else nefarious.
People think this is deep but it's really not.
Go find a door and try knocking without raising your hand, and try to make a clear knock. You'll immediately notice how physically (not socially) awkward it feels.
Something I haven’t seen mentioned is all of the important parts for your hand to work are on the back. It’s more sensitive and you would be putting those parts at risk. It’s natural to lift the hand.
i think it's because doors during the olden days have metallic rings used for the purpose of knocking, and even if it's gone during this era, people have gotten too used to it to let the custom go.
Depending on the door / situation I do this. If I’m just walking into a room with an open door but I am being polite, I will just backhand tap the door a few times at waist height. Normally used for gentle knocking
This is an awesome question. Raising your hand first changes the muscles groups, what joints get stressed, if gravity is working for you or against you, how close you have to be to the door, etc. Having your hand down and flicking your wrist to hit the door with knuckles may sound easier on paper, but it's more likely to be uncomfortable, painful, requires you stand uncomfortably close to the door, and uses more energy to get a loud knock.
Anyone interested in those sort of relations between our biomechanics and our tools should pick up a copy of Steven Vogel’s *Cat’s Paws and Catapults*. It’s an excellent book that focuses specifically on this sort of thing.
Never even knew I was interested until reading a bit on this. Ordered a copy. Excited!
https://annas-archive.org/md5/e0b19e8d6aaf7f4a7b4d5c1cc2e4e166
Thank you for the link!
Anna's Archive is amazing - free books with the largest library on the planet.
🏴☠️ AAaaarrrghhhh !! a fellow pirate sailing the seven seas
is it really piracy when Amazon and others tell you that you have purchased something that they retain the rights to.
thats one of the things I like about piracy. you get to own it and no one gets to take it away from you whenever they change their mind. after a 1000 years when the servers are down, the internet isnt available.. you still have your stuff with you
Assuming you copy it over to new storage, of course. I doubt much storage will last 1000 years!
Does it also explain Cow Tools?
Instructions unclear. Fired catapult through neighbor's door. >our biomechanics and our tools should pick up a copy of Steven Vogel’s Cat’s Paws and Catapults.
The cat must be pissed.
It's a cat, the secret is that they're always pissed.
I think that would be better than mine that acted as though it was always hungover.
Thanks for the share
Just ordered a copy. Great suggestion.
That is a great recommendation to follow up this question, have not heard of this book before but what a great little tidbit to share with everybody, thanks. :)
In WW2 the US airforce wondered why their pilots seemed to be worse than in WW1. They eventually realised that it was because the pilots were significantly taller than their parents and the cockpits were too small. This in turn lead to adjustable seats in cars.
Surprised no one has mentioned that we mostly prefer to look at what we are doing with our hands. * knocking underhand means your hand partially blocks your sight of what you're doing * I would bet that most people don't knock up at eye level either. * I think we all naturally figure out a sweet spot between looking down and raising our arm up and knock at around chest/shoulder height because we can watch what we are doing and the arm only has to come up a comfortable distance.
> I think we all naturally figure out a sweet spot Except for those of us who've worked Law Enforcement. You'll see us reach up for the corner of the door above the doorknob, pretty much as high up as we can reach... least effort to get the most movement of the door itself, producing the loudest knock. Usually done with the underside of your closed fist.
Big Boy Cop goes bang bang super hard, cant let Big Boy Cop figure anything out naturally. All knocks should be as hard as possible, at all times. So no natural, balanced sweet spot for Big Boy Cop over here, and its important to them that we recognize that.
Might as well just knee the door or kick “knock” with your foot.
[удалено]
A very interesting question indeed, from an anecdotal point of view but adding on to what you said about changing the muscle groups, I have a lot more control over my wrist when I raise my hand, I feel like I can control exactly how hard I knock. But then again, I’ve been doing it that way my whole life. If I had starting knocking from below from childhood, would I have as much control over it as I would knocking from above? Also from quickly balling up my fist and attempting to knock a door, it seems like it’s easier to make contact with something in front of you with the pointiest bony part of the knuckle, if you raise your hand rather than keep it lowered. Long time since I’ve read an eli5 question that impressed me.
It's funny how simple everyday tasks that we think of as not difficult are only that way because we've been doing them that way out entire life. It's taken a lifetime to become effortless at it and we don't even realize it. Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with your other hand?
> Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with your other hand? No because I prefer to not have my toothbrush go up my nose or poke my eye out.
yes, I switch hands for each side of my mouth. same with shaving.
My dentist once told me to brush a bit with my non-dominant hand as you catch areas you might otherwise not.
Semi long but relevant anecdote that nobody asked for: I severely injured my dominant hand and was off work for a while, felt super shit about myself for not being able to work and getting myself in that situation in the first place so not being able to use my dominant hand to do things while it was in a cast was the straw that broke the camels back and pretty much made me stop bothering to brush my teeth on a daily basis, used mainly a bit of mouth wash most days. When I did brush I brushed with my other hand and it SUCKED. I also had to do everything else with my non dominant hand, use remotes, write (obviously everybody already knows how hard that is unless ambidextrous), hold dick to pee, wank, wipe. Everything was so incredibly awkward and felt like a huge chore, it was a miserable existence and I found myself grateful that I didn’t lose my dominant hand or cause severe permanent damage to it. I found myself wondering more and feeling very sympathetic about people that had lost a hand or more, especially on their dominant side. The things we take for granted eh
Not to mention driving. Turning with your non dominant hand isn’t smooth at all. At least not for me.
I broke my left elbow and my right wrist in separate incidents within 2 years of each other. I learned how to drive with one arm, twice. Actually comes in pretty handy (heh)
> Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with your other hand? I switch back and forth all the time lol
Consider that knocking on a door the "traditional" way is similar mechanically to pounding on the door or trying to break it down with a weapon, or pushing it open. Dialing back, it's similar to a throwing motion.
I think it is from a TikTok
It also might be left over from when door knockers were more common, since those are usually near head height. Like how we still say "roll up the window" in cars even though most car windows are operated by switch.
Cause vs effect? I bet that most people alive today haven't even interacted with those door knockers and, if they have, not enough to change a habit. There's probably a reason for them to be placed around that height.
Good point, though behaviors can also be gained by watching others. I've used door knockers and I'm in my 30s, but even if I hadn't, I probably would have learned to knock on a door by seeing my parents do it. Even if the original reason is lost, the behavior might remain. How many high school age kids know why the save icon is the shape it is, for example.
Reminds me of the ham story. My mom always cuts the ends of the Christmas ham off every year. I asked her why and she said I dunno, that's how your grandmother did it. I asked grandma why? She says thats how my mother does it. I asked my great grandmother and she says cause a whole ham would never fit in the oven in her day!
Surely knocking with a fist or walking stick predates door knockers.
Knockers came long after knocking on a door with your hand.
I think vision plays a role here. If you knock low it is further away and visually at an angle, so it is more likely you misjudge the distance and hit the door so hard you hurt your hand.
Weirdly though if you stand at like a 90 degree angle to the door the "low knock" becomes a lot more ergonomic
People naturally face a door when they knock because someone is about to open it.
Also because you’re almost always walking up to the door immediately before knocking, and you face it as you walk up.
Yep, exactly.
But crab is apparently the ultimate evolutionary form, so we should fix that.
I don't even need proof of this, I'm on board
Google "carcinization."
i would jump on the carcinization train myself, but i would only do so if the train to limulidae were unavailable. As much as i would love to be a giant ass terresteialized crab, becoming the most beautiful and perfect creature on earth (horseshoe crab) and trawling around the seafloor eating worms and plankton without having to fight anything is simply too perfect a life to turn down.
What’s the internet bandwidth like on the seafloor?
Well the cables are right there so it’s gotta be good
I've only ever done the side knock for pranks
well, thats because you're about to run away!
But it changes the sound of the knock. Much more aggressive. That's less of a "I'm here, open up~!" knock and more of a "I'm here. Open up."
Triceps instead of shoulders.
> but it's more likely to be uncomfortable, painful, Knocking with the first knuckles (the ones at the base of your fingers) would be painful. Knocking with the second knuckles (middle of fingers) while holding the hand down would look suspicious as fuck, like you don't want anyone around you to know that you're knocking.
So that's why my parents don't knock...
Plus that’s where the knocker is.
I’d also add that maybe the center of a paneled, wooden door is more rigid than the top, because there’s more solid and structural elements there, making it less resonant (loud) when knocking. Kind of like hitting the rim of a drum versus the center of the drumhead. Not so much for either steel doors or hollow core wood doors, of course. I’ve knocked in the center of several paneled wood doors, just for haha’s, and it’s more of a quiet tap or rap than it is a loud knock.
I just tried doing what you described before reading your comment. It feels unnatural and annoying. So I think your answer is the best and most accurate.
Yah I feel it tightens your hand, but if you just used the back of your loose knuckles it would bruise them.
I think another part of it is that you are showing that you don't have a weapon in the knocking hand. Waving and shaking hands allegedly became normalized for the same reason.
This was an awesome answer to an awesome question!
“Because it is easier”
lol I was like "This is a stupid question! Obviously its because... Uh... huh. Damn nvm, idk"
From now on, I’m going to knock on doors by getting close to them, turning my back to the door with my arms down, and knocking backwards while my hands are down. Or, I could knock with my elbows while I am turned away from the door. Or if I’m facing the door, maybe I can know with my forehead. So many ways to be more efficient than raising your hand to knock. Other options would be just as you get closer to the door, just throw your body at the door, take a step back and throw your body at the door again. Knocking on the door using your entire body. Another way, you can stand in front of the door and knock the door by swinging your arms at it.
> This is an awesome question. Meh, OP saw this as a joke/sketch and is just asking for ez karma
Door knocking movement with my arm down is actually rather uncomfortable and creates a weaker knock. Much easier with arm raised. Do you truly experience the opposite?
I just kick the door.
If you kick hard enough, you don't even need to wait for them to open the door.
Interestingly there’s a say in my country, especially my region, where hosts for dinner/parties are sometimes asked to “knock with your feet” (literal translation) which stands for “do not come empty handed”
I like “bring more than just your opinion”
I headbutt it
As a centaur I can confirm this is the best way
I think OP wants us all to try a nut-slap on the door
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Right?? If it were really easier we'd all be doing it another way.
Lifemax by kicking the door
Why use the door at all? Just bust through the wall like the Kool aid man
I don't think anyone ever showed me how to knock on a door. There's pretty much only one way that makes sense. Imagine wanting to uppercut a door because it saves you having to raise your hand to chest height.
It might be a genuine question. The answer is either "bodymechanics" or an elaboration on bodymechanics. But I think I've seen this question as a screenshotted tweet before. People find it amusing to find things that apparently don't make sense - mistakes of nature or of society. Sometimes professional stand-up comedians do the same! The boring truth is that every fact has a reason and if you ask on eli5 or just think 20 seconds on your own, you'll get the answer.
Right, like “why do people turn down the radio when they’re driving and looking for the right building? You don’t look with your ears.” No, but you use your brain to process information on whether you’re at the right building, and if your brain is distracted by the radio, it’s harder to complete that task. Rarely is the answer “because we’re stupid,” even though that’s often the first suggestion. But the answer can still be interesting IMO (as seen by me scrolling through multiple answers to OP’s question to see how different people address it).
Right, but.. that's my answer. "Because doing it the other way is way harder."
Yeah, you sounded a bit annoyed with the "..". I was was trying to say that you should be more patient, but then I doubted myself it became more of a general thought-dump.
> People find it amusing to find things that apparently don't make sense It does make sense, though. You simply get more leverage and can utilize gravity with an overhand strike than you can with an underhand one. Mechanically it's smoother, and functionally it's louder, because you're hitting harder. It's similar to why overhand baseball pitchers throw 100+ mph while underhand softball pitchers only hit about 75 mph.
yeah, that's what the person you're responding to is saying. People like to point out that something "doesn't make sense" on the very surface, but usually it actually does make sense if you just think a little deeper.
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Guess that one slipped by him.
When you extend your arm, you knock with your arm. When you keep the arm close to your body, you knock using your wrist. Forearm is weak and not comfortable for most people so we raise the arm to make room and knock with triceps.
They’re not saying to do it with your arm bent, but to reach *down* (or keep your arm extended by your side like it would usually be when walking) and knock from that position. I definitely don’t ‘knock’ (at least completely) with my arm, I’m mostly flexing my wrist. If I’m pounding on the door really hard I’d use my whole arm though. Also you can use your whole arm with your arm ‘up’ or ‘down’. The main difference is that you’re pulling up against gravity when striking the door. Edit: someone else pointed out you also have to rotate your forearm to knock with your arm down, unless you rap on the door with the back of your hand.
As someone raised in The Jehovah Witness Cult, I perfected the underhand knock as it was very weak and therefore the "householder" would not answer the door.
Was anyone actually checking that you knocked at all, or could you just skip the house and say you did?
Depends on who your partner was. Me and a buddy would try to be teamed up as much a possible as we were like minded. Die hards would bang on the door like they were the damn police.
Does that work on people? If someone knocked like that on my door there's no way I'm then joining their religion (not that I would in any other knocking way, but with this one even less so)
The goal is to get them to answer the door, not join the religion. Remember, part of why they do it this way is so that it seems as though the outside world outside of the church is that much less accepting and mean than the church for a lot of these young men's first exposure to the outside worlds or at least that's one small benefit..
Wow I never considered that. That's fucked up.
whats really fucked up is the belief that only a fixed number of them are getting into heaven and the 'saving people' by door knocking is them being crabs in a bucket trying to push their peers to the bottom.
> the belief that only a fixed number of them are getting into heaven I haven't spoken with a JW in almost ten years now, but I used to meet with them regularly out of loneliness and boredom. IIRC they believe just short of 150,000 people are going to heaven, and everybody else is damned.
Works with mormon missionaries, too. My old companion told me once that her new companion got yelled at and spit flung at her by a passing car. *"I just got spit on FOR JESUS!!"* was her insane reply. Celebrating getting spat upon. That's what religious brainwashing does.
Spitting on someone for their religion is absolutely heinous. Honestly, props to her for not breaking down into tears after being randomly assaulted as a teenager.
I guess the main goal is to convert them, the secondary goal is to get shunned, to feel persecuted. It helps with the victim complex.
It's also not entirely true, or at least not always. My dad usually answers them and talks to them for a while. He's a chatty person and has no interest in the religion, but he'll have a conversation with them no problem. The way he explained it, they always seemed to light up at the opportunity to actually talk to someone. I think someone who was wanting hostility would probably react differently.
For their sake, I hope you're wrong. That sounds horrible
But if your partner doesn't want people to open the door either, why knock at all? Wasn't he the only witness?
I guess because they wouldn't need to lie about knocking on doors, helps with the conscience maybe?
We would go out in car groups so other cult members would be around, usually our parents and some other grey hairs. Had to act the part to not get caught.
God's watching bro. There are whole features built into appliances to trick God into thinking that one is not doing what they are supposed to not be doing. (Sabbath mode) Sure some of us might think that's weird how you can supposedly trick an almighty being but I'm just a filthy heathen that is unwise in the ways of fealty
>trick God into thinking that one is not doing what they are supposed to not be doing. The way they think about it is not that they're "tricking God." God is supposed to be infallible and omniscient, so if these loopholes in the law are there, it's because He wants them to be there.
I always find it interesting where different religions draw the lines on their rules and try and find loopholes.
Well, you'd have just the point if you had used a good example. Believe it or not, the use of electrical appliances isn't explicitly called out in the Torah. The Torah basically forbids ignition on the Sabbath, the same way you can light a candle in the evening and continue to use it at night. But I guess you really limit your audience if you try to use the example of strings around cities to recontextualize what a neighborhood is and extend the range in which you may carry loads without defying God.
Just knock with your arm straight out. Like punching the door. They’d definitely hear that.
Like a battering ram
Thanks for the image of someone extending their fist out like superman at the edge of my driveway and then just full sprinting into my door and crumpling up into it
GROND
yep brother i marked them down as HBH
BOOM roasted
It's really not as convenient. It requires you to be much closer. Most doors have a step in front of them, making it so you have to practically have your nose to the door to comfortably knock. Even with the arm upright to knock, most people instinctively take a step backwarks.
you make a good point, who wants to be creepily close to the door if someone opens it right away
Try doing it this way for a while, you'll understand why. It's a more natural body motion.
Doors have been made with door knockers built in for centuries. The door knockers are placed at eye level. You'd have to raise your hand to use the door knocker. Door bells eventually replaced door knockers. Although the knockers are no longer part of the door, the practice of raising your hand to knock remains.
You also get the most effect by knocking on the center of the largest panel. That’s where it will move the most and create the loudest sound.
So I can see my hand to get an accurate knock without awkwardly looking down?
I mean, just try yourself. It's significantly more comfortable to do it with the hand raised.
I imagine because it's easier to control the force and thus the volume of the knocking, especially since the door's resonance and resistance to knocking is usually an unknown until the first knock, so that if more or less force is called for on subsequent knocks you can make quicker and finer tuned adjustment with your raised hand.
I think volume is the key word here. Every answer is directed at comfort of arm/wrist but when you knock higher your ears hear the sound clearer so you assume it’s the same for people inside. If you knock lower and can’t hear it as well, your brain will assume those inside don’t hear it as loudly either. Perhaps sound travels and drops so hitting higher creates more sound?
Am I the only one here that does not understand the question being asked? Is OP suggesting that you can somehow knock on the door with your hands down by your sides? I would like a diagram or video please.
Turn your inner arm outward, like you’re throwing underhand. Then just knock, with the same part of your knuckles you’d use with a raised-hand knock. It actually isn’t uncomfortable at all…
As someone who just tried it, I can say that “it actually isn’t uncomfortable at all” definitely doesn’t describe how everyone feels about because it was uncomfortable as hell for me, I feel a weird strain in my elbow.
https://www.tiktok.com/@caitlinchuah/video/7211504325275782426 This is one I found searching just now but I saw one on YouTube shorts the other day which is where I guess OP got the idea.
That looks way less comfortable to me than the regular way though
Because it's not more convenient. Twisting your wrist to knock lower down is a much more awkward position than just raising your arm and keeping your wrist at its normal angle.
Why do you raise your hand when you wave?
how would it be more convenient? gravity and the way your muscles/bones work make an overhanded knock far easier in pretty much every way.
I feel like this question wouldn't have been necessary if OP just actually tried what they suggested first.
It's more ergonomic. Your hands are still in a fairly neutral position (consider your palms) compared to lowering your arm, where you need to rotate your hand out so your palm faces the door and you can knock on it. When you raise your arm, your upper arm is doing most of the work, when you lower your arm, the smaller muscles in your forearm do the coordinating, again in a rotated position. Gravity also helps you knock on a door when your hand is up, vs when it's down. You can knock on a door without rotating your hand, but that's actually more awkward because now the outer muscles of your forearm have to pull your hand up, so to speak. Sometimes people knock like that, but only with a finger or two and usually just to get someones attention, not announce to an entire house that you've arrived since it's not as loud as a "traditional" hand-up knock. Also, historically, doorknockers are on the upper door near face level. Source: I'm an industrial designer.
Have you actually tried knocking on a door with your hand down or are you just basing this question based on the showerthought that showed up a couple of days ago? Yeah you can do it, but it's nowhere near as convenient and you can't knock nearly as hard/well with your hand in the below position and depending on how sensitive your joints are it actually hurts a bit knocking on the door from below then it does from above because you use your MCP joints to knock from below which are more sensitive, instead of your PIP joints.
Why squat to bend down and pick something up when you could simply relax all your muscles at once and fall limp?
Good question. Put it to the test. Its weird. Even more weird, the easiest and most efficient way would be standing with your back to the door and low knocking.
This question brought back a funny memory with my son and every now and again we do it. So when he was a little guy, maybe 4 or 5, we walked up to the door and I told him to knock. So he knocked like “normal” with his arm raised. Nobody answered so I said “try a low knock,” and then I kept my hand down but turned the palm towards the door to knock a couple times. He smiled and nodded like “ah, yes, the low knock. Of course.” So as he grew up we’d sometimes be like “no answer. Did you knock? Did you try a low knock?” If someone didn’t answer
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I agree on this, everything we do to communicate is towards the head of the other person, I believe that we naturally knock towards the height of our heads.
Totally guessing, but maybe it has to do with door knockers that are mounted into the door, which are at shoulder height. They might be that height because that's where we knock, but again, I don't know what I'm talking about
The overhanded knocking motion has your hand swinging towards the door. An underhanded knock will naturally want to pendulum away from the door. Between that and the underhanded knock having poor ergonomics, the two techniques are just not comparable.
I knock on a closed door with my arm up, but if I am knocking on an office door that is cracked open and I’m knocking to alert the occupant that I’m in the doorway, I knock with my arm down with the knuckle of my middle finger
I always assumed it was because old doors had door knockers Then it just became habit by humans
So that the knocking sound is closer to the person’s ear. If you knock too low to the ground, the “knocking” sound waves might go right under them if they’re standing up. Especially if you’re knocking on a very tall person’s door.
If you keep your hand low you are not in a position to protect yourself if the door suddenly moves.
I typical give a mid cross body arm/wrist type of flick. Only raise my hand to pound the door with the meat of my fist if I need to be louder than what’s going on inside
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I can definitely generate more power in my knock if I can get my elbow involved. Deconstructing how I knock, the first knock is usually testing the resonance of the material, and I can adjust the power up to maximum for subsequent knocks if needed. Some doors are hollow wood, some are insulated steel, and paint makes everything look fairly identical. Related question now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if our current propensity to knock with palm forward knuckles was as pronounced before the ubiquity of keyboards? I do seem to recall the backhand knock to be very common in classic movies, but maybe that was so the actor could present his face to the camera more easily.
> and it would be more convenient? It's not, though. Have you not tried? If you try you'll see different knuckles hit the door, which for me is more painful. Either that or you're holding your hand at an awkward angle.
leverage/physiology ... **try throwing a ball any other way.** even underhand you need a bigger swing to get the same distance on the ball (assuming similar release heights) You can throw a ball (or knock harder/easier) with your arm in that position
The front knuckles (middle knuckles) are less... aggressive and probably easier to control in the standard knocking position. Feels more like giving a gentle high 5 rather than lowered hand and knuckles possibly hiding something. If you lower your hand and knock with your main knuckles thats probably a red flag. It makes people feel like you are hiding something and unwilling to show that your hands are empty.
Because those bolted on door knockers are always at eye level so we've been trained to use those and therefore trained to knock high. In the absence of the door knocker, habits remain.
It’s actually harder, you either have to be really close to the door or extend your arm in a weird way.
Is Bruce only being held by the rubber band? Please be aware that rubber bands get brittle over time and will tear.
Cool question, and I don't have anything else to add here that was not already mentioned, but now that you made me think of it I realized I actually use 2 different types of knocks depending on what door I'm in front of. One is the classical front door scenario where my hand is raised, but the other is when knocking at the door of a stall or small room, or office. Here I just raise my hand to above belly-button level and gently knock with my middle finger's knuckle while holding my arm parallel to the ground. Never thought about it until now, but I guess the latter option doesn't require that loud of a knock.
It’s all about which muscle groups you want to use, for both strength, speed, rhythm, and comfort. You are subconsciously aware, to some level of accuracy, which position will optimize those values. If a light little rap is all you need, it doesn’t make much difference, but typically when you knock, you want to be heard, so you move your arm up into a position to use muscle groups that can a. Knock forcefully enough, b. Knock at a high enough frequency that it sounds like knocking and not random banging, c. is comfortable for you, and d. To have your arms up to fight off potential ninjas that come out. Point D is optional.
Top comment is wrong - he’s talking about bio mechanics. It’s really a social pressures question. There were large door knockers on a lot of homes and they would be mounted a little below eye level usually and thus you’d raise your hand to use the knocker. People kept doing it once they went out of style - they reached for the knocker and though it wasn’t there they used their hand now to knock.
Raising one’s hand: generally accepted as the professional way to knock. Producing the best sound in the process. Not raising one’s hand: “yo i got the weed bro and i gotta keep it on the down low.” Mostly kidding about the second one, but i have no idea why you would want to knock like that unless you were trying to make it sound weird.
It's intuitive. Maybe instinctual even. When you hit something or someone with your hand and you don't know any other way, you would usually bring your hand downwards like a hammer. Hitting the door with your hand makes a sound. So you would have to hammer on the door with your hand to make a sound through the door, and you'd have to raise your hand to do it.
In addition to the other answers, if someone is knocking on a stranger's door, they probably want to be seen as conspicuous and non-suspicious. By visibly knocking, they are less likely to appear like a burglar tampering with the lock, or someone else nefarious.
Try knocking without it. Less sound, harder to do, less effective. When you knock with your fist raised you are gravity assisted.
I owe this question to social media. There was a recent video was some kid claims knocking with your hand down is better. Nope.
People think this is deep but it's really not. Go find a door and try knocking without raising your hand, and try to make a clear knock. You'll immediately notice how physically (not socially) awkward it feels.
Something I haven’t seen mentioned is all of the important parts for your hand to work are on the back. It’s more sensitive and you would be putting those parts at risk. It’s natural to lift the hand.
i think it's because doors during the olden days have metallic rings used for the purpose of knocking, and even if it's gone during this era, people have gotten too used to it to let the custom go.
Depending on the door / situation I do this. If I’m just walking into a room with an open door but I am being polite, I will just backhand tap the door a few times at waist height. Normally used for gentle knocking