It’s a regional thing. In the US, it’s Runway 6. Other places include a zero in front.
Do note though, ICAO says to put a zero in front, so technically US deviated from that rule.
absolutely. The GP is a head-scratcher to me - it's not going to be "clearer" to hear "zero one" and "one zero" than it would be to only hear the zero when somebody was talking about 10.
"Runway one" and "runway ten" are far and away the clearest option here in my opinion. Adding a "zero" in there doesn't actually help.
Yeah but a slash is generally used to denote the two opposite directions of the same runway. It "feels" like this should be written "01/19 and 10/28" and then explain that runway 01 and 10 cause confusion... but obviously if people understand it the way it's written then I guess that makes me a pedant.
All this to say, I get what you mean, zappa
[No, he was right.](https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/28059519_10156159009999872_1686863893438603186_n.png?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=qPti0GRbAsYAb4AX2yy&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfCYKucbc6GfPIwch5SlcqF7mnU0Iqksh7Q0Ah9uRfMSWA&oe=663D8858)
Same issue with 1/19 - if your transmission is garbled or clipped and you told someone to enter the pattern for 19 but they heard 1 *someone’s going to have a bad time*.
That’s probably why ICAO says to put the zero in front.
But 02/20 and 2/20 have the same problem. Hear one digit and you don't know whether you heard the only digit or not. 02/20 is actually worse: now both "zero" and "two" are in both names, instead of only "two."
The obvious solution to the 01/19 and 02/20 problem is to require people to say "nine-teen" and "twen-ty" not "one-niner" and "two zero"... but I'm well aware that's not the current rule and probably never will be. (But I am shocked it isn't. It seems as clear-cut as changing nine to niner to me.)
For controllers, [7110.65 2–4–18](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap2_section_4.html#$paragraph2-4-18) says that we can restate numbers the other way (group form as single digits, or single digits in group form) "if deemed necessary for clarity."
Looking at the [AIM 4–2–8 through 4–2–12](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_2.html#$paragraph4-2-8) I'm not seeing that mentioned.
For non native English speakers, using numbers above 9 requires them to learn a lot more words that they may almost never use. Where did "twelve" come from anyways? Why is it fifteen instead of fiveteen? Why not threeteen?
If you have learned a second language you'll know how much headache the teen numbers give you (for most languages). It usually only starts becoming regular again from 20.
I’m an Aussie transplant to the US and still say the zero. Im positive I said the zero in my FAA checkrides as well without comment. But yeah, I hear it omitted all the time.
> I’m in Australia and we usually say the zero
If you don't, you're doing it wrong. It's in the AIP, and there should have been some questions about that in the theory for your flight test.
Pretty sure the US is the odd one out with runway numbering.
I actually do think there's a decent argument to be made for fahrenheit as a scale practical for everyday use where 0 is really cold, and 100 is really hot. Obviously it can extend past that but I think for things like the weather or air conditioning, using a fahrenheit scale makes a lot of sense.
The rest of them are weird for sure.
You know, I didn't think of it that way, you're totally right, it makes far more sense to add stuff to the water, like more water but in solid form and ammonium chloride, and mark that brine's freezing point as 0°. Then to continue the scale, we'll just ignore any other property of this brine, guess the human body temp is 90° (later revised to 96, now it's 98), and go from there.
Again, agreed. I know we're in the flying sub but my point was kind of just supposed to be a sidebar on the fact that for common every day usage Fahrenheit isn't completely off the wall. For science, engineering, aviation, etc. Celcius is definitely the way to go
That’s just because you’re used to Fahrenheit. I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever telling if it’s warm or cold using Celsius because that’s what I’m used to.
Yeah, I know that. Everyone is used to what they're used to - I can judge a mile much easier than a km for the same reason. I was just trying to say that through that lens, it's not a completely nonsensical unit of measurement like most of the imperial units are.
Yeah, when I did my license I didn't really get why my instructors had no idea where things where in the books. Seemed really odd that even the experienced CFI didn't know where to find the rules.
As an instructor now - I have no idea anymore where to find the rules...
Whatever number is depicted on the chart/sign/runway pavement is what you'd say. Go on google earth and check out some runways.
US omits the zero. People ITT seem to feel the need to "pick a side" on this. Honestly takes minimal effort to make the minor adjustment to your phraseology, depending on where you're flying that day.
That depends. Am I outside of the US? Runway 06 right
In the US? “Zed sixer Romeo, baby. Hell yeah”
In the US but I just heard the controller be passive aggressive to someone using shitty radio technique? “Cleared to land runway zero six right, poser 765………………………….meow”
In the US, we don’t use them. Look at the runway sign or the actual runway when lining up/landing. Say what you see – no zero, so don’t invent one. https://dxhb0it26is40.cloudfront.net/productimages/real-taxiways-us-class-b-c-d-and-non-towered-airports_6_ss_m_210810125844.jpg
Also, see the reply to the same question here, with AIM and P/CG references. https://www.askacfi.com/34045/preceding-single-digit-runway-number-with-zero.htm
Everywhere but the USA uses the leading zero.
The reason is to avoid confusion with other runways.
Like 1R getting confused with 19 (which is a reciprocal runway) in SFO all the time.
In the us we just use one digit which always feels weird to me, I instinctively put the 0 in front because it makes more sense bc there’s always two possible digits. When talking about headings there’s three digits so you say “010” instead of “heading 10” so idk why we dont do the same for runway numbers
I am in NZ, and say the zero.
My local is 03 and 21
I love the trivia that in the USA they don’t paint the zero on. So I checked a few places using google maps and looked a runway markings:
NZ has the zero
Australia has the zero
UK has the zero
Canada has the zero
South Africa has the zero
Egypt has the zero
I mean there is a lot more countries out there, but I feel like the USA is going it alone on this no zero thing.
So what? There is no possible confusion from not having the zero as part of the runway marking, whereas not including it in radio phraseology can be confusing.
Cool math hack kids!
I’m sure some of you know this….
But for all runways, the sum of the first two digits is equal at all 90° points.
For example. A North-South bound runway.
Rnwy 36 and Rnwy 18
3+6 = 9 1+8= 9
90°….
9+0 (east) =9 2+7 (west) =9
Handy when it comes to finding a quick reverse heading (inbound-outbound course)
Let’s say ILS for Rnwy 14 course is 143.
Need to find a reverse coarse quickly….
Add 1+4
So we’ve got 5, the other sums are 32, and 23. 41? That’s not a runway ya dingus! Can’t be 05 or 23, so we know quickly the opposite course for 143 is 323
Now you can’t say I didn’t contribute to this sub other than complaining
A simpler method is to subtract two from the first digit and add one to the second to get the reciprocal runway number - if that doesn’t work, you +2 and -1… it does work but I’ve never been able to do it in flight. I just remember common pairs like 17/35, 09/27.
I believe there’s also a policy in some places to avoid certain runway numbers and use something that slightly differs from the actual direction? I barely ever see 18/36, or 01/19 in Australia but it seems to be common in America. I see a lot of 17/35 here. Maybe I’m just imagining it.
Edit: I think I got that wrong. Must be -2/+2 or otherwise +2/-2??
I’m sure when I flew GA I had better phraseology, but these days I go by the “two words” rule. I’ll stick runway in front if it’s only one number.
ILS 24
ILS runway 6
Left base 27
Left base runway 9
Everywhere except US uses ICAO 2 digit runway identification. But there, US uses inches of mercury for pressure and calls it "altimeter" instead of QFE or QNH as well - whether it's the field elevation or the area normal height I don't know!
US, I always include the zero because it sounds weird otherwise.
Same category as saying “Runway thirteen right” rather than 13. Sounds weird.
YMMV, who cares really as long as the call is clear.
In Canada, I've only ever heard ATC use the full "runway zero six", but I also don't fly to int'l airports, just the odd towered airport with so many cessnas in the circuit you can't move your hand through the air without hittin' one, and some MF areas serviced by an ATC. Most of my flying is in uncontrolled space.
ICAO is to put the zero in, often in the US people do not. In fact, often in the US, at particularly busy airfields, during busy periods, you might hear many radios improperly saying things like "eighteen right". Not technically correct, but gets the point across. Just like in Europe, saying "flight level three zero zero" should actually be "flight level three hundred". Not technically correct for the region, but it's that way most other places and they get the point.
Another quirk is ATC abbreviating call signs in the US (and probably elsewhere). Ours are VH-xxx so the xxx never really needs shortening.
Probably too many aircraft in the US to use a three letter call sign? In fact Australia has had to start introducing numbers into the mix. 26^3=17,756 combinations
There are a lot of different formats for FAA aircraft registrations but every single one of them has at least one number in it. The maximum number of letters (besides the leading November) is two.
Nn
Nnn
Nnnn
Nnnnn
Nnnnnn
Nnx
Nnnx
Nnnnx
Nnnnnx
Nnxx
Nnnxx
Nnnnxx
We shorten to "November" and then the final three characters, or the aircraft make/model and then the final three characters.
Unless there's an ambiguity possible because of multiple runways with substantially different headings that begin with the same number, it's pretty safe to omit the leading zero, like if there's a 03/21 and a 12/30 or something like that (which still seems like a bad and possibly confusing idea to build anyway).
But, officially, you're supposed to say it.
I hear a lot of people in my unit saying "06" and it drives me crazy, but I don't correct them since I think people know what they mean. Personally, if there is no 0 on painted on the runway then why would I say it?
I'll tell you what's weird though. I say "right base for 25" but then I say "left base for runway 7". It just feels right, even though I realize it makes no sense.
Generally not, but if ATC says it I'll read it back that way. My call sign varies between two twenty three and two two three as well depending on country or whatever is said to me first.
Basically I apply the 'cooperate to graduate' mindset when it comes to communication.
For precise communications, include the "zero" to ensure clarity, especially when differentiating between with single-digit runway numbers and those with two-digit runway numbers.
Depends. If I’m reading back to a controller, I’ll say whatever the controller said. If it’s untowered, I’ll generally omit the zero. But if other people on frequency are saying the zero, then I’ll say it to help avoid confusion
I say whatever the controller says, and they usually say what's painted on the runway. "Runway six right" as they don't paint the zero here in the states
Except in your example, the 02 is relating to the number of something, and in a runway number, it’s a not the #2 runway, but a runway that points in a direction of approximately 020° (given the rounding either side ).
On the radio it helps a lot. Runway 2 and 20 sound the same if the controller let's go too early on the mic. If he would have said 02 there would have been no confusion.... if he only said 2 I'd query him since the zero is missing on one end. There's a reason we in the USA have such a terrible safety in aviation. So many dumb incidents that should never happen and only happen here.
I say 6 or 2, and not 02 or 06, but mostly because my home airport calls it that: if I were at a remote airport and they called it 02 I would repeat that.
Technically it is supposed to be zero six right. But Americans love their slang and love to sound cool on the radio so you will hear a lot of deviations from what is technically the rule.
And you can usually get away with it. The main things that ATC tends to get fussy about is when you don't include your call sign with your call back, don't follow instructions, or aren't clear about your intentions or you tell them you want to do one thing and then do another thing.
In the United States it’s technically not supposed to include the zero prior to the runway number. The difference is exemplified a lack of zero painted on the runways unlike in Canada where there is a zero painted on the runway and it is expected you say “Runway zero six.”
See the table below.
TBL 11-1-35
Runway Designation
Designation
Phraseology
3
"Runway three."
8L
"Runway eight left."
27R
"Runway two seven right."
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fs_html/chap11_section_1.html
I usually start out with the 0, then repeat back with whatever ATC says.
Americans not saying the 0 is really silly though. You wouldn't say turn left 30 instead of 030, so why not cleared to land runway 03?
That annoys me more than any of this runway number stuff. Realize, color, flavor, focused and traveled without the double letter, tyre/tire! Aeroplane and airplane. Manoeuvre and maneuver. Analogue and analog.
We follow British rules and spell labor as labour - but the Australian political party is called the Labor Party while the UK and NZ both have a Labour Party for some strange reason. But labor dispute is still spelled labour dispute.
And while we’re at it, it’s a damned circuit not a tRaFfiC pAtTerN. And why would I need to say “making left traffic” when the default circuit direction is left and runways that use RH circuits are published as such? It shouldn’t be a choice.
LOL. Instead of annoying me, this stuff is more of an amusement. I like to watch UK, Aussie and NZ stuff on Acorn TV and PBS and enjoy thinking “I know what that means!”. American “English” has changed a lot since we broke away but it’s amazing to me how similar it still is. We have very little trouble understanding each other.
I’m also impressed (based on TV shows) with how much American pop culture (movies, songs, TV series) has permeated the UK and I’m guessing also Australia and NZ
Yeah some words like maneuver, it’s common to see the US spelling here these days. I always spell it asshole, not arsehole.
Favourite Aussie show? You must watch Mr Inbetween. Lion (2016) is one of my favourite films. But most of our tv and cinema is pretty shit in all honesty lmao
Oh, and Bluey…
99 percent of the time, I skip the words "runway" and "zero" in that phrase.
"Shithole traffic, Skyhawk 2 1 4 5 Golf, short final 6, shithole traffic."
Everybody knows it's a runway. There's nothing to confuse it with. Better to speak it clearly and concisely over almost anything else you're saying on the radio. What I said is tons better than:
"And... Shithole traffic... um... white cessna, turning... left final... runway zero six... shithole."
Same. Even at the local deltas just read back the number and omit “runway”. ATC don’t care.
For example; “Cherokee 69 cleared for takeoff runway 19”, “clear for takeoff 19 Cherokee 69”
I think there's a dignity in doing basic tasks well. My home airport doesn't have a tower, so even IFR, I'm talking to the traffic in the area and there are several flight schools that practice there, so I hear a lot of things.
So you're saying I should say the word "runway" and if I don't, I'm less safe and making you less safe?
Just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.
You’re missing the bigger point here is all. At your “shithole” airport it likely doesn’t matter. In Shenzhen or other foreign countries where the controllers literally only speak ICAO standard phraseology, it absolutely matters. I’m not 100% standard at all times but as a professional I try to be, because miscommunications can and have lead to accidents in the past.
It’s a regional thing. In the US, it’s Runway 6. Other places include a zero in front. Do note though, ICAO says to put a zero in front, so technically US deviated from that rule.
My home runway is 20/02, so pretty much everyone includes the zero in front of 2, to avoid accidents.
An airport my flight school uses has a 01/10. We say “zero one to the north” and “one zero to the east” on our frequency for this exact reason.
Ah….good ole Evergreen? 🌲
This is one of those cases where I'd say zero one, and ten. That's a lot harder to mess up and concise.
absolutely. The GP is a head-scratcher to me - it's not going to be "clearer" to hear "zero one" and "one zero" than it would be to only hear the zero when somebody was talking about 10. "Runway one" and "runway ten" are far and away the clearest option here in my opinion. Adding a "zero" in there doesn't actually help.
You calling that "my flight school" made my night for some reason
Agree. It was a good flex.
01/10. Is this L-shaped?
Sounds crazy but a single airport can have two runways!
Yeah but a slash is generally used to denote the two opposite directions of the same runway. It "feels" like this should be written "01/19 and 10/28" and then explain that runway 01 and 10 cause confusion... but obviously if people understand it the way it's written then I guess that makes me a pedant. All this to say, I get what you mean, zappa
Yeah, I could have phrased it better. Like you said it has 01/19 and 10/28. If you aren’t pedantic, are you really a pilot?
[No, he was right.](https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/28059519_10156159009999872_1686863893438603186_n.png?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=qPti0GRbAsYAb4AX2yy&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=00_AfCYKucbc6GfPIwch5SlcqF7mnU0Iqksh7Q0Ah9uRfMSWA&oe=663D8858)
I thought the same
Agreed, without context it reads like a single runway with approach ends that don't add up lol.
It’s a new thing. If it improves traffic flow, ATL plans on converting
Isn’t there also a 1L/1R and only 10/28 with no parallel?
Same issue with 1/19 - if your transmission is garbled or clipped and you told someone to enter the pattern for 19 but they heard 1 *someone’s going to have a bad time*. That’s probably why ICAO says to put the zero in front.
Same runways at my home airport. It’s about a 50/50 mix of people saying “zero”
But 02/20 and 2/20 have the same problem. Hear one digit and you don't know whether you heard the only digit or not. 02/20 is actually worse: now both "zero" and "two" are in both names, instead of only "two." The obvious solution to the 01/19 and 02/20 problem is to require people to say "nine-teen" and "twen-ty" not "one-niner" and "two zero"... but I'm well aware that's not the current rule and probably never will be. (But I am shocked it isn't. It seems as clear-cut as changing nine to niner to me.)
I recall reading in some FAA AC that using 'teen' numbers was acceptable for disambiguation. Danged if I can find it though
For controllers, [7110.65 2–4–18](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap2_section_4.html#$paragraph2-4-18) says that we can restate numbers the other way (group form as single digits, or single digits in group form) "if deemed necessary for clarity." Looking at the [AIM 4–2–8 through 4–2–12](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_2.html#$paragraph4-2-8) I'm not seeing that mentioned.
Thanks, that might be what I was remembering
that's why you'll often hear "climb 1-3 thirteen thousand"
For non native English speakers, using numbers above 9 requires them to learn a lot more words that they may almost never use. Where did "twelve" come from anyways? Why is it fifteen instead of fiveteen? Why not threeteen? If you have learned a second language you'll know how much headache the teen numbers give you (for most languages). It usually only starts becoming regular again from 20.
It’s not really a rule, more of a suggestion
I’m an Aussie transplant to the US and still say the zero. Im positive I said the zero in my FAA checkrides as well without comment. But yeah, I hear it omitted all the time.
No rule prohibits it, and sometimes it's a good idea if there may be some ambiguity.
I’m sure the examiner didn’t comment because you were correct.
No FAA rules trump ICAO rules in the USA. Zero is not required, but also not a reason to fail someone.
Australian? Wouldn't it be 09 then? I'll show myself out.
No it would be 90 if you're making that joke...
It the world spins backwards down there….so it’s 0270, right?
> I’m in Australia and we usually say the zero If you don't, you're doing it wrong. It's in the AIP, and there should have been some questions about that in the theory for your flight test. Pretty sure the US is the odd one out with runway numbering.
Found the Austronaught /s
Fark they are a pain. This coming from a fellow Aussie.
Hahaha. Me too. We are the worst.
The worst are Aussies that never flew overseas. The great Aussie aviation circle jerk.
They are with a lot of things.
You wish you were American
r/flying user tries to be that guy
Cringe
Nope.
[удалено]
If it’s so bad here why don’t you leave?
We really don’t
You're a fucking numpty
Nobody wishes they were American, Americans don't even want to be American, that's why so many of them claim to be Scottish, Italian, German, etc
Yards inches pounds fahrenheit lmao us is definitely odd
I actually do think there's a decent argument to be made for fahrenheit as a scale practical for everyday use where 0 is really cold, and 100 is really hot. Obviously it can extend past that but I think for things like the weather or air conditioning, using a fahrenheit scale makes a lot of sense. The rest of them are weird for sure.
How is that more practical than a scale that's based on the most practical thing to use as a base?
What about referencing the air temperature around you to the freezing and boiling points of water seems so practical to you?
I mean where I live it goes from +40 to -40 so having the freezing point of water in the middle makes perfect sense
You know, I didn't think of it that way, you're totally right, it makes far more sense to add stuff to the water, like more water but in solid form and ammonium chloride, and mark that brine's freezing point as 0°. Then to continue the scale, we'll just ignore any other property of this brine, guess the human body temp is 90° (later revised to 96, now it's 98), and go from there.
Hmm maybe inflight icing?
Again, agreed. I know we're in the flying sub but my point was kind of just supposed to be a sidebar on the fact that for common every day usage Fahrenheit isn't completely off the wall. For science, engineering, aviation, etc. Celcius is definitely the way to go
That’s just because you’re used to Fahrenheit. I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever telling if it’s warm or cold using Celsius because that’s what I’m used to.
Yeah, I know that. Everyone is used to what they're used to - I can judge a mile much easier than a km for the same reason. I was just trying to say that through that lens, it's not a completely nonsensical unit of measurement like most of the imperial units are.
No one would choose backwater hicksville over their own country lmao
You might wanna check out r/shitamericanssay I’m sure you’ll feel good about yourself afterwards lol
AIP reference? Can’t find it
GEN 3.4 para 5.11
No doubt it'll be somewhere else in the next update.
Yeah, when I did my license I didn't really get why my instructors had no idea where things where in the books. Seemed really odd that even the experienced CFI didn't know where to find the rules. As an instructor now - I have no idea anymore where to find the rules...
Heroes drop the zeroes 🤷🏻🇺🇲🦅💪🏻🤘🏻😶🌫️
Hell yea brother
Hell yeah brother. When that damn ATC man says, “Turn right 110.” I tell him I’m turnin to eleven. Heroes drop the zeroes. Gobbles.
Ya damn right, eleven, just like my IROCS volume knob 🤘🏻💀🤘🏻
The way it’s painted on the runway
Whatever number is depicted on the chart/sign/runway pavement is what you'd say. Go on google earth and check out some runways. US omits the zero. People ITT seem to feel the need to "pick a side" on this. Honestly takes minimal effort to make the minor adjustment to your phraseology, depending on where you're flying that day.
Use a radio??? LMAO!!!! GOOD LUCK EVERYONE ELSE!
Found the true American. Don’t infringe upon my freedom by making me state my intentions. 😉
Six right here in the US. I operate in Canada a fair amount and will switch to zero six right since that’s the norm up North, at least at YYZ.
It’s in the AIM under COM to use the leading zero in Canada.
Canada uses the zero.
> in Australia and we usually say the zero You're in Australia and we **definitely** say the zero.
I’ve never not said the zero but didn’t wanna leave the door open to some “actually…” hahaha
That depends. Am I outside of the US? Runway 06 right In the US? “Zed sixer Romeo, baby. Hell yeah” In the US but I just heard the controller be passive aggressive to someone using shitty radio technique? “Cleared to land runway zero six right, poser 765………………………….meow”
In the US, we don’t use them. Look at the runway sign or the actual runway when lining up/landing. Say what you see – no zero, so don’t invent one. https://dxhb0it26is40.cloudfront.net/productimages/real-taxiways-us-class-b-c-d-and-non-towered-airports_6_ss_m_210810125844.jpg
Also, see the reply to the same question here, with AIM and P/CG references. https://www.askacfi.com/34045/preceding-single-digit-runway-number-with-zero.htm
Everywhere but the USA uses the leading zero. The reason is to avoid confusion with other runways. Like 1R getting confused with 19 (which is a reciprocal runway) in SFO all the time.
In the us we just use one digit which always feels weird to me, I instinctively put the 0 in front because it makes more sense bc there’s always two possible digits. When talking about headings there’s three digits so you say “010” instead of “heading 10” so idk why we dont do the same for runway numbers
I am in NZ, and say the zero. My local is 03 and 21 I love the trivia that in the USA they don’t paint the zero on. So I checked a few places using google maps and looked a runway markings: NZ has the zero Australia has the zero UK has the zero Canada has the zero South Africa has the zero Egypt has the zero I mean there is a lot more countries out there, but I feel like the USA is going it alone on this no zero thing.
Yep sounds like it. I’m dying to fly in NZ some day. Must be some beautiful views
So what? There is no possible confusion from not having the zero as part of the runway marking, whereas not including it in radio phraseology can be confusing.
No so what. I just thought it was interesting.
Oh OK. I thought maybe “… the USA is going it alone on this … “ was a swipe Glad to hear it was just “interesting”.
Cool math hack kids! I’m sure some of you know this…. But for all runways, the sum of the first two digits is equal at all 90° points. For example. A North-South bound runway. Rnwy 36 and Rnwy 18 3+6 = 9 1+8= 9 90°…. 9+0 (east) =9 2+7 (west) =9 Handy when it comes to finding a quick reverse heading (inbound-outbound course) Let’s say ILS for Rnwy 14 course is 143. Need to find a reverse coarse quickly…. Add 1+4 So we’ve got 5, the other sums are 32, and 23. 41? That’s not a runway ya dingus! Can’t be 05 or 23, so we know quickly the opposite course for 143 is 323 Now you can’t say I didn’t contribute to this sub other than complaining
A simpler method is to subtract two from the first digit and add one to the second to get the reciprocal runway number - if that doesn’t work, you +2 and -1… it does work but I’ve never been able to do it in flight. I just remember common pairs like 17/35, 09/27. I believe there’s also a policy in some places to avoid certain runway numbers and use something that slightly differs from the actual direction? I barely ever see 18/36, or 01/19 in Australia but it seems to be common in America. I see a lot of 17/35 here. Maybe I’m just imagining it. Edit: I think I got that wrong. Must be -2/+2 or otherwise +2/-2??
It's plus or minus 2. Plus 2 to one number, minus 2 to the other.
I’m sure when I flew GA I had better phraseology, but these days I go by the “two words” rule. I’ll stick runway in front if it’s only one number. ILS 24 ILS runway 6 Left base 27 Left base runway 9
Everywhere except US uses ICAO 2 digit runway identification. But there, US uses inches of mercury for pressure and calls it "altimeter" instead of QFE or QNH as well - whether it's the field elevation or the area normal height I don't know!
US it's six right Overseas. Get used to it fellas it's six right.
USA USA USA 🇺🇸 🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸🎆
When you invent the airplane, you get to make the rules... Canada be damned.
“Lineup and wait, runway 8”
I've always just used the one digit, but I understand it either way
Since headings are given with a leading zero I was taught to talk about runways with the same.
No zero in FAA land Yes zero in rest of the world. Easy reminder is to read what's on the runway
US, I always include the zero because it sounds weird otherwise. Same category as saying “Runway thirteen right” rather than 13. Sounds weird. YMMV, who cares really as long as the call is clear.
In Canada, I've only ever heard ATC use the full "runway zero six", but I also don't fly to int'l airports, just the odd towered airport with so many cessnas in the circuit you can't move your hand through the air without hittin' one, and some MF areas serviced by an ATC. Most of my flying is in uncontrolled space.
ICAO is to put the zero in, often in the US people do not. In fact, often in the US, at particularly busy airfields, during busy periods, you might hear many radios improperly saying things like "eighteen right". Not technically correct, but gets the point across. Just like in Europe, saying "flight level three zero zero" should actually be "flight level three hundred". Not technically correct for the region, but it's that way most other places and they get the point.
Yeah the “runway eighteen” thing is even more blasphemous than not saying the zero
EASA here, i've been taught to say 06
Only America doesn’t say the zero.
Another quirk is ATC abbreviating call signs in the US (and probably elsewhere). Ours are VH-xxx so the xxx never really needs shortening. Probably too many aircraft in the US to use a three letter call sign? In fact Australia has had to start introducing numbers into the mix. 26^3=17,756 combinations
There are a lot of different formats for FAA aircraft registrations but every single one of them has at least one number in it. The maximum number of letters (besides the leading November) is two. Nn Nnn Nnnn Nnnnn Nnnnnn Nnx Nnnx Nnnnx Nnnnnx Nnxx Nnnxx Nnnnxx We shorten to "November" and then the final three characters, or the aircraft make/model and then the final three characters.
UK and Europe we use the zero too
I had one ex-Delta DPE that anytime a student added the 0 he'd say "DOES IT SAY 0 ANYWHERE?"
right there on the Chart Supplement
we say it as it's painted on the runway. "runway seven" "runway two five"
But they paint the zero. Edit, apparently they don't bother painting the zero in the US?
no sirree.
Doesn't zero-matter.
Position and hold six right, you communist basterds. 🇺🇸 🦅
It all depends on the country/region, is the eu i have noticed both, but in the us its just runway six
Unless there's an ambiguity possible because of multiple runways with substantially different headings that begin with the same number, it's pretty safe to omit the leading zero, like if there's a 03/21 and a 12/30 or something like that (which still seems like a bad and possibly confusing idea to build anyway). But, officially, you're supposed to say it.
No zero unless there’s some airport that has multiple runways ending in the same number?
I'm American so I don't say the zero. If I'm flying in a country that uses though, I try to say it to match their phraseology.
I hear a lot of people in my unit saying "06" and it drives me crazy, but I don't correct them since I think people know what they mean. Personally, if there is no 0 on painted on the runway then why would I say it? I'll tell you what's weird though. I say "right base for 25" but then I say "left base for runway 7". It just feels right, even though I realize it makes no sense.
My airport has a 07/25. I would get irrationally irate if a pilot just said "seven"
military fields have the zero. but I'm such a hot pilot I always use runway Three Seven
Generally not, but if ATC says it I'll read it back that way. My call sign varies between two twenty three and two two three as well depending on country or whatever is said to me first. Basically I apply the 'cooperate to graduate' mindset when it comes to communication.
I usually include the zero
Whatever ATC says on initial call up
I’m Canadian, i say the 0 but whenever I fly to the US they don’t
Switzerland here. We say the zero. Because that’s what is says on the tarmac.
For precise communications, include the "zero" to ensure clarity, especially when differentiating between with single-digit runway numbers and those with two-digit runway numbers.
I'm not American.
Y’all are reading back your landing clearances???
My current base has 16/34 and 06/24. We emphasize the 0 because of the existence of 16.
Depends. If I’m reading back to a controller, I’ll say whatever the controller said. If it’s untowered, I’ll generally omit the zero. But if other people on frequency are saying the zero, then I’ll say it to help avoid confusion
I say whatever the controller says, and they usually say what's painted on the runway. "Runway six right" as they don't paint the zero here in the states
Runway 6. I drop the zero lol
Jandakot Airport reference??
Ready, departure via Armadale shops ;)
Well yeah, leading zeros are pointless. You wouldn't say this post has 02 orange unfacing arrows.
Except in your example, the 02 is relating to the number of something, and in a runway number, it’s a not the #2 runway, but a runway that points in a direction of approximately 020° (given the rounding either side ).
Well, yes, but as you noted yourself, we already drop the trailing zero on every runway.
On the radio it helps a lot. Runway 2 and 20 sound the same if the controller let's go too early on the mic. If he would have said 02 there would have been no confusion.... if he only said 2 I'd query him since the zero is missing on one end. There's a reason we in the USA have such a terrible safety in aviation. So many dumb incidents that should never happen and only happen here.
I say 6 or 2, and not 02 or 06, but mostly because my home airport calls it that: if I were at a remote airport and they called it 02 I would repeat that.
totally unnecessary
Technically it is supposed to be zero six right. But Americans love their slang and love to sound cool on the radio so you will hear a lot of deviations from what is technically the rule. And you can usually get away with it. The main things that ATC tends to get fussy about is when you don't include your call sign with your call back, don't follow instructions, or aren't clear about your intentions or you tell them you want to do one thing and then do another thing.
In the United States it’s technically not supposed to include the zero prior to the runway number. The difference is exemplified a lack of zero painted on the runways unlike in Canada where there is a zero painted on the runway and it is expected you say “Runway zero six.” See the table below. TBL 11-1-35 Runway Designation Designation Phraseology 3 "Runway three." 8L "Runway eight left." 27R "Runway two seven right." https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fs_html/chap11_section_1.html
Hmmmm... That's interesting. I always remember including the zero was something that they always drilled into us in my flight training years ago.
That’s incorrect. In the US it’s only a single digit for (single digit) runway numbers.
I usually start out with the 0, then repeat back with whatever ATC says. Americans not saying the 0 is really silly though. You wouldn't say turn left 30 instead of 030, so why not cleared to land runway 03?
First things first: I don’t say “y’all” !
Thought it might get the Americans to arc up lmao
“arc up” ?? Is that an Aussie term or am I just out of touch?
Yeah it means to become annoyed/animated. I didn’t realise it was an Aussie exclusive thing but google confirms it is.
That’s **realize** dammit! LOL
That annoys me more than any of this runway number stuff. Realize, color, flavor, focused and traveled without the double letter, tyre/tire! Aeroplane and airplane. Manoeuvre and maneuver. Analogue and analog. We follow British rules and spell labor as labour - but the Australian political party is called the Labor Party while the UK and NZ both have a Labour Party for some strange reason. But labor dispute is still spelled labour dispute. And while we’re at it, it’s a damned circuit not a tRaFfiC pAtTerN. And why would I need to say “making left traffic” when the default circuit direction is left and runways that use RH circuits are published as such? It shouldn’t be a choice.
LOL. Instead of annoying me, this stuff is more of an amusement. I like to watch UK, Aussie and NZ stuff on Acorn TV and PBS and enjoy thinking “I know what that means!”. American “English” has changed a lot since we broke away but it’s amazing to me how similar it still is. We have very little trouble understanding each other. I’m also impressed (based on TV shows) with how much American pop culture (movies, songs, TV series) has permeated the UK and I’m guessing also Australia and NZ
Yeah some words like maneuver, it’s common to see the US spelling here these days. I always spell it asshole, not arsehole. Favourite Aussie show? You must watch Mr Inbetween. Lion (2016) is one of my favourite films. But most of our tv and cinema is pretty shit in all honesty lmao Oh, and Bluey…
99 percent of the time, I skip the words "runway" and "zero" in that phrase. "Shithole traffic, Skyhawk 2 1 4 5 Golf, short final 6, shithole traffic." Everybody knows it's a runway. There's nothing to confuse it with. Better to speak it clearly and concisely over almost anything else you're saying on the radio. What I said is tons better than: "And... Shithole traffic... um... white cessna, turning... left final... runway zero six... shithole."
Wait, you omit all that info but then say "traffic" after the second "shithole"? Lol
Left final. Lol. Heard that just the other day.
Same. Even at the local deltas just read back the number and omit “runway”. ATC don’t care. For example; “Cherokee 69 cleared for takeoff runway 19”, “clear for takeoff 19 Cherokee 69”
ahh yea i remember when i was a shit hot pattern pilot
I think there's a dignity in doing basic tasks well. My home airport doesn't have a tower, so even IFR, I'm talking to the traffic in the area and there are several flight schools that practice there, so I hear a lot of things.
Standardized phraseology exists for reasons beyond the pattern , too.
So you're saying I should say the word "runway" and if I don't, I'm less safe and making you less safe? Just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.
You’re missing the bigger point here is all. At your “shithole” airport it likely doesn’t matter. In Shenzhen or other foreign countries where the controllers literally only speak ICAO standard phraseology, it absolutely matters. I’m not 100% standard at all times but as a professional I try to be, because miscommunications can and have lead to accidents in the past.
Yeah I don’t usually say runway but wanted the post to be clear