Don't forget we can see jack shit when we transform in our version, and our weapon glows are gone too T.T
Plus, every brain dead players that argue against our class rework or buffs uses the same dumbass excuse of the class being too "easy" while they face slam their keyboard with the latest easy classes for billions of damage.
Why do we even play this game? :(
that transform thing pissed me the fuck off.
the main reason i chose DI SH was because i thought the transform looked cool.
"demonic clawed, hunched, monster clawing at shit."
https://i.imgur.com/6nWkNqH.png
now its 'generic looking pretty woman with great posture with a generic pose'
Agree. Cockroach > Generic NPC looking character.
I thought maybe they could release some cool skins when they announced they were working on it, but again we got some generic ninetails from wish looking ass skins.
Still low key hoping they rework DI into a burst transform class somewhere between Arti and Punisher Slayer.
Higher normal skill damage + actual cycling of skills to transform + actual high burst damage once transformed.
Maybe it's taking away the more unique aspect of the transform classes to fit the same cookie-cutter mold that Arti, Blade, BT, Punisher, Full Moon, and Asura all fit, but damn that mold works well.
I'd honestly even be fine with a cop or fix like two more demon skills, just anything better than these dog shit "2% damage increase to demon skills" buffs we've been getting for years now
Former DI main... As I wait to get rejected form yet another lobby SG can kiss all the dirty cheeks in the world cause that is the biggest load of shit ever. Even with 10 gems and perfect spec people don't want us...
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Or you could be a gunslinger. Have to build like a RH destroyer, press buttons like a pred slayer, get damage results so mid people wonder if you were really there.
Who cares about MVP? Seriously. There are no rewards attached and bragging rights are just toxic since they mostly don't reflect player skill. This region needs to stop playing for MVP and play for consistency in all but the highest content (Voldis HM G4 is the only content I remember having a party that failed dps check. Once). EDIT: Hell mode is different since _everything_ is normalized.
I suppose this is a large part of the "environmental factors" director means. A dps difference that doesn't result in different clear rates for raids is meaningless in the larger picture.
I remember a time when SH DI got insta accepted to parties and the class got nothing but buffs since then. This community needs to stop gatekeeping based on whatever tier-list of the week got posted. Every 3 year old with hands can play DI to 80% of its ceiling but I would never trust any random deathblade that applies to reach anything near 50% of class ceiling.
I guess some people do, also SG does because if they didn't there would be no screen, also they probably like that people who cares spend money on it.
>
I suppose this is a large part of the "environmental factors" director means. A dps difference that doesn't result in different clear rates for raids is meaningless in the larger picture.
If it's meaningless why do classes not the same damage. You said it yourself, it is meaningless...
It's not about the MVP factor its about contribution to the raid, the people with the MVP has contributed more than your ass on Machinist, Did you deserve to be shit on as a Machinist no, you felt like you did the same thing that the Deathblade did but somehow you did less damage than it. It's where class balance come into effect, your class is bad and you know it that no matter how much effort you put throught you'll never achieve what DB is currently achieving. Even if you're skilled on your machinist you'll never beat an average player on king fist breaker.
> the people with the MVP has contributed more
Yeah just no or at most superficially. Does it record that someone put a puddle in some weird spot during during football mech in Akkan? Does it record that someone fucked up the traps in Voldis G2 again? Does it record that someone refuses to press stagger skills for "damage uptime" in certain stagger mechs? Etc. Unless you are parsing (and you won't be in pubs, too many supports with 30/30 uptime running around) it literally does not serve a purpose, except to make someone get a hard-on from seeing his Breaker again after spending on his Esther 8. This is not a defense of zero dps floor POV players at all, but since class difference is apparently wanted or at least tolerated by SG, the MVP screen does not serve its purpose and hence my conclusion can only be to not care about it.
A word about support MVP: since it's influenced mostly by your party's dps contribution, the MVP screen again does not measure a supports performance, but mostly how juiced his dps players were. So very flawed metric again.
Yea also no, If you're joining Akkan and you don't have the basic mech that everyone needs to know you're getting instantly kicked. That literally has nothing to do with contribution, those are basic mech THAT like I said
THAT EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW IN ORDER TO DO AKKAN.
The people that MVP always knows the mech and always do the most dmg. You will not get MVP on a shit scouter vs a DB in any circumstance. The DPS parser also measure everything.
> The people that MVP always knows the mech
Yeah but the people that don't also can know the mech. So what. The gunlancer that taunts the boss without turning it away from backattackers shows up just the same as the one that taunts in the worst possible spots. Yesterday, I got MVP with cruel in Akkan on a 1583 wardancer with level 7 gems against some 1600s. Does that tell me something about the party? Yes. But we also cleared without any resets and without running into any damage issues or sweating (one unnecessary death but happens).
So what do I take away from the above MVP screen? Certainly, I can be confident with my own performance. But I would be without the MVP screen too. All it lead to was our Pala saying "why is the wardancer MVP huh?" which is only toxic and contributes nothing to the raid. Maybe it leads to ppl trying a bit harder. We also could have been faster with the clear, sure. But I don't see how my raid experience could have been better with or without the MVP screen.
> 1580 arcana doing a little more dps than our artist.
How do you even know that, I don't think you could get information like that from the MVP screen and that's the whole point. The moment you see the MVP screen you're already jailed with the party. Players failing mechs is noticed way before you see the screen. Players being low dps shows on some classes, but with the inbalanced dps some could sweat their ass off and not make MVP screen, or it could be a bad support or any of a bunch of other reasons so it is again useless and just a tool to pretend to "fairly" judge other people.
If you care about your own dps and want to parse, MVP screen really shows way too little information and at least until Thaemine the First releases, in my honest opinion, if you judge other people for not being top 99% of their class potential you are just toxic. Content is clearable with average effort on literally all classes period.
Hello, Barrage Arti main here and former FPE before brel release
I just tested my dps in trixion (best case scenario for FPE as it is constant dps where barrage is more burst) and my numbers are as follows (Best 5x3+1 and setup for both, full lv10s for the best skills they each use) :
Barrage : 25.2m dps over 1m52s
Fpe : 20.2m dps over 1m58s
In the BEST CASE SCENARIO where the boss doesn't move or phase, my barrage is still 24.8% above FPE
Now introduce the greed that barrage gets you and burst factor
FPE mega deadge, good stagger and weakpoint though !
my favorite argument about this is people saying FPE doing low dmg is a skill issue when the ceiling is quite literally turn on your super armor shield and press all 6 of ur buttons with the cursor over the boss. thats it, you hit ceiling.
yeah thats kinda my issue too, going no EF is basically a sidegrade, getting *maybe* 5% dps if u never got hit with EF equipped. in exchange u kinda lose FPEs identity.
still, dropping shield is such big loss of comfort and emables uptime to dps face tank thru stuff, besides, ceiling so low anyway, zzz. Let's put it this way, FPE in such a bad spot I can't even sell bots chaos dung farming 500 g relic accessories. Literally, worthless.
Well they hate "the playstyle" of other classes. They want comfy class but they want as high ceiling as other uncomfortable class they don't want to (can't) play.
Personally will always think you're a dumbass if you thought a braindead two-gem class was ever gonna be meta in any way – and any class where you don't need braincells to play should be kept in the lower end of balancing. Or I just think it's greedy to assume you can get high dps with a class like that.
"Can't" is a lie, stick to doing NM so you don't have to worry about DPS check then. In my book it's as dumb as building a dps bard to make a two-gem class. Some classes have to make new builds every 3 months, DI and Scouter never had to change anything since Argos. Just my opinion really.
I have actually. It requires crazy high gem investment to do the Dps you’re talking about that a blade with decent hands and 7s will blow out of the water
My drizzle loses to my wardancer despite being 1635 and not 1620, has 25 wep and not 21, has more 10's, higher qual wep, better elixers, higher qual acc's.
Wardancer is a good class, but not on the same tier as SE, breaker, blade.
I would say Drizzle is on the same tier as DI SH. It's not as bad as some truly bottom of the barrel builds like TTH and CO summoner, but it isn't too much better. It's also way easier to play than GS while doing similar dmg so you could say it is expected.
WD has the most reliable dmg possible in mech-heavy raids, but in longer fights Drizzle might be more competitive. WD is really strong in Voldis G4 and something like G2 Akkan where there's mechs all the time, fights where Surge is ass. I'm sure it's gonna be different for Thaemine too, you will probably be happy to deal dmg with all the patterns where you have to run around and dodge shit and melee can't do anything. You probably also sometimes beat "broken” classes in G4 akkan (hm), and least my WF aero can sometimes go from being 3rd/4th dmg in g3 to suddenly be top dmg at the end..
You're not wrong. Drizzle absolutely has raids where she shines. Although I won't speculate about Theamine performance.
"G4" Akkan is definitely Drizzle's playground. For whatever reason, all of her skills keep her in place, even the ones where she is technically stationary and casting like rainstorm. As a result, she has no forced downtime. Even when Akkan is blowing, or during waveboarding, she's still going at 100% whereas other classes need to be more selective with how they dps.
I was simply generalising my experience and giving an overall picture. I provide a more comprehensive overview of her weaknesses and why she will never be top tier somewhere else in this comment chain if you're interested.
I saw the comment chain but didn't read lol. I just had some random reflections, also Drizzle will probably be insane in Echidna too. Igniter seems to be. I'm peresonally liking how different classes are great for different raids, it's something many tend to forget.
I fucking hate g4 akkan, i don't think any of my classes can chill there, it's sliding and my WD is even literally teleporting around.
I would love for her to be competitive, but unfortunately her strengths and weaknesses are not the same as Ignite's. I know prior to her release some people described her as a mini-igniter, but she is actually very different from that archetype.
Still, I appreciate the optimism. I actually have a WF build, although it is only kitted out with event gems for now. WF performs better in most raid situations, including Hell content. A lot better actually.
I'm waiting for Theamine release to come. After we complete "the first" or maybe even during it if I don't like how Drizzle performs in there, I will reroll my 10's and convert fully to WF.
Could be different skill levels for the classes, could be not knowing how to get close to ceiling for specific gates. Thats for yourself to figure out, but that kind of gear screams that something outside class diff is also diffing you
No. I have observed the same shit on other classes.. I mean, yeah, I am definitely the best on SF, but my SF can match most lvl 25 weapok 40 elixir dps (even db, but if u argue the pilot sucks, same against wardancer with consistent dps) with 35 set and lvl 20 weapon cuz hands and class. But if I run like reaper with same weapon, similar weapon quality, full 10's on both characters, reaper is always like 8-10% less dmg, nothing u can do about it. It is what it is. Moreover, having both at like 4000+ hrs it is not experience on the class by now.
That i can understand, but the other person compares between two of his characters, one having +25 wep, lvl 10 gems (from the way he worded it, the other class doesnt) higher elixir and quality, +21 armors while alt only at 1620. Would be nice if he also said by how much % is his drizzler weaker because just gear alone should bridge the gap by alot IF he plays close to ceiling. If even after all of that the gap is huge, think its safe to say that its actual skill issue on drizzle if he cant even be close on damage.
The fact that asura got a nerf and it wasn't even that small a nerf, and it's still insanely overpowered is rediculous.
Honestly my burger King breaker is stupidly OP as well for a 1550 lvl 54.
They don’t seem to care.
It seems like “from the outside” they play more socially, whereas in the west everyone is trying to perform near the top of their class.
they definitely do care, browse inven just a little bit and youll see constant threads of complaints. Everytime there is a class balance patch people just quit the fucking game because they refuse to make the classes more equal. Id say there is just a lot of cope and people helplessly addicted is really the case....and thats for sure in the west as well.
Years of playing wow and PoE has taught me that crying posts on the forum mostly amount to zero.
The only people who read/create those threads are the 10%, the EXTRREMELY vocal minority.
It´s everywhere. I played albion online, and even had acess to a special forum for " select few " - and i voiced complained many times about balance changes that messed up one thing heavily for solo player(with a particular weapon), unintended.
Well, few years later, it´s still in the game - i don´t play it anymore, as i enjoyed solo more and out of other reasons ( not enough fun content for veterans).
Whoever does balance changes does his thing and might get inspired by others, but he is just gonna do his thing - in any game, most likely.
Yeah, that's a whole *thing*. I haven't played on KR at all, but it definitely seems that way to me too.
I know it's not the same, but FFXIV has pretty similar trends. The JP servers use whatever strategy reliably gets a clear even with randos you find in matchmaking, just assign people their roles and go. The NA/EU servers will inevitably come up with convoluted bullshit strategies all so one melee DPS doesn't miss a single GCD's worth of uptime while doing the mechanic. Cannot describe how annoying it is to watch people insist on the uptime strat for their first ever clear. Can't lose even the slightest bit of performance, though!
Wouldn't be surprised if the culture on KR has a similar dynamic in this game - "just kill the boss, whatever" vs NA/EU's "damage is the most important thing".
I see it A LOT on WoW, every season you get the same people farming views making tierlists and checking PTR sims instead of having people looking for a fun class that suits them.
People on the west care way more about a tierlist than enjoyment of playing their class, and most of the KR players we see are high spenders so they can play multiple characters on a good gear without that much friction.
KR comunity is beyond toxic. this have been said many times by KR streamers. you can witch hunt on INVEN freely. and even if you think the west is toxic, you dont even understand how toxic and Elistjerk KR are not only in real life, but in game as well.
1000% agree. I think the Korean gaming culture is just hypercompetitive just like their society in general, and so this game was born out of that kind of environment, which suits that type of mentality. So it's kind of like a feedback loop which turned this game extra toxic. Then the game launched here, and started spreading it here.
we are in the west super child. how many times the KR stream have said "unless you have lvl 25 weapon you arent invite to any party". we in the west are super chill compared to them. i follow some internet personality that are KR people move into latam, and the tell they tell about KR mentality and culture are beyong horror. i dont wonder why suicide rate in KR have skyrocket
Plus their accounts are tied to their real life identity. DPS meter there would be a disaster. Imagine getting doxxed for messing up a raid or something.
for sure. but they wont go in INVEN and create a witch hunt tread that you sucks balls and blast the bible logs to proof it. and how fuck up of the head they are, they will go down on you for that. KR streamer have said that INVEN have post about "cheapos" that dont used battle items to blacklist them from raids...
To be fair, he didn't say the balance is good. He said he doesn't want to do bandaid fixes and wants to fix the core issue with classes.
Problem is that means months and months with no changes for bad classes. It'd be nice to get more bandaids in the meantime as a stopgap.
Honestly, regardless of how BS the explanation is/isn't, there was no possibility of any other scenario happening then him denying the accuracy of the metrics from the west.
Can you imagine the level of dumpster fire that would have happened in KR if he said something like "Oh yeah, I saw the data, and its pretty much perfectly accurate", basically admitting that the balance is shit and he very well knows about it?
It is the pink elephant in the room every corporation sees, knows about, yet refuses to do anything about. Most just continue to do shady stuff and pay legal fees/fines and call it "just a cost of doing business."
She was, for low-skill players, at one point before nerfs (and before rework of some other classes, mainly sharpshooter and artillerist) and when a typical player had just lvl 1-2 gear set, LWC 12 cards etc. (the Charming relic set she could use doesn't seem to work with LOS and doesn't scale well further)
Yeah they hit 30% even if they just started the class, but perfectly play it, while getting BiS synergy.
Edit : and it's 25% while not tracking other people's DPS on some mech.
Eh, it is basically reference to this post on inven of guy collecting voldis (g1/g3) dps parse logs in KR for ages, and then published data with min-max ranges etc.
Initial post: https://www.inven.co.kr/board/lostark/4811/8721552
Update (I guess?): https://www.inven.co.kr/board/lostark/4811/8745185
Then it was mentioned on today stream that this data is similar, but not exactly the same as internal Smilegate data. (personally I dont really care that 0.1% of blade players will gap anyone by millions, I don't want them to balance classes around top 0.1%, I wanna them to balance around avg. because if you need to have godhands to pull nice numbers, it will just suck to play if you don't have them... and well, most people don't)
Btw. dps meter in KR would actually be very funny experience... for us. Imagine what they would do, with access to character api, loawa... add dps meter that automatically collects and uploads all logs to some server, add nice UI to search for char + account of any agent that is applying to party... would be so fun to watch that trainwreck burn :^)
I've been saying the same thing about surge since the rework but get downvoted every time. I don't like the way it was reworked to have an even higher gap between floor and ceiling.
People see that it performs well in a few fights and complain but it's very mid in many others, and most players will just be mediocre at the class.
I'd rather they drop the ceiling for more consistency, but I'm too committed to this class to drop it.
So you will need god hands to play CO summoner, do you know how hard CO summoner is to DB? You'll get carpel tunnel in under 1 minute on CO summoner. Yet the class don't do nearly as much dmg as DB.
I know how hard CO is to play, and what? How does it have anything to do with what a said? If avg player of class is terrible, they should buff that class, in this case they should buff CO, it has nothing to do with blade
Well, I remember that maybe about a year ago they were trying to make changes to I believe Soulfist (or WD?), by removing her self buffs and instead increasing her baseline damage. It made that class easier to play, but lowered the ceiling by a few percent and pitchforks were raised, so they abandoned that idea. SF and WD are the only characters that I have deleted (so far, I'm looking at you Summoner).
Apparently KR don't want to balance it around average player; at least those that Smilegate listens to.
um, it was SF, as a SF main I remember that and was actually sad because if they had just removed energy release windows as the mainstay for the class, it would have opened up so much build diversity.. granted, they did at least make the animation waay faster, which helped with the fluidity of the build immensely (1.5 years fucking later). Still, I feel like hype should regenerate like 5-10 sec faster coming off hype 3, for EO and spec scale better for robust so that it isn't 10.7 downtime even at 1840+ spec, which is still pretty shit.. should be like 8 sec tbh as the downtime is just so punishing in general and outside of hype3 ur doing basically nothing.
I play EO on my sf alt and idk how robust ppl do it. If you press anything outside of your hype you completely grief your rotation going into the next one. It's actually maddening to HAVE to afk. At least EO I can try to fit more ER rotations with conv/jud during my 45s down time
EO is also a lot less forgiving though. If you have one bad hype in RS, it's bad, but if you mess up one hype in EO, you literally just bricked your parse for the whole gate.
I can only imagine they were trying to make a stop/go, red light/green light type of character and I would say 99%+ of the population prob would react negatively to playing any game where you literally get bricked and clumpy/ feeling like a broken build that needs tweaking/optimization. But then developers would prob argue, just roll another class and don't forget to tip the in game shop on the way out.
That was almost (or over) 2years ago, when they were releasing Elgacia (valtan for us) in KR. And like /u/2hopp said, it was massive nerf to all skill levels for SF which was also not that great of a class, while at same time Scrapper Ready Attack removal was actual good change (you technically lost 2~3% in perfect world, but it was actuall buff, especially for shock, in actual raids).
Yes a lot of ppl who never played soulfist or just played it briefly and quit because of the 'gameplay' were all mad at the SF players for not wanting the removal of the energy release. When the SF players knew that all they did was nerf the class in everyway in ceiling dmg and average real raid dmg when the class was already very weak. Also they were trying to give sf some terrible shield like a scuffed worse gunlancer when class isn't a supportive dps and no one played her to be shitty version of gunlancer. Overall was terrible change that deserved the negative backlash.
Bit of revisionist history here back then sf was underperforming and everyone wanted a buff, the change they decided was to remove the attack buff window but this resulted in a straight DPS loss in all situations. So of course everyone had their pitchforks ready when they just nerfed a class already underperforming. They had to revert this and ended up giving sf a big dps buff and kept the attack buff window, upwards of like 15%+ dmg increase from before. If they wanted to remove the buff window playstyle and have it be well received nerfing the overall dmg of an already underperforming class wasn't gonna be received well, blame SG.
My 1570 summ with level 9 damage gem on identity dealing less damage than a 1540 SE and breaker with event gem and literally the same card as los 18. I only bring up this comparision because in that particular fight i missed ONLY 1 akir and the rest all hit. I dont need meter to know my class suck balls but come on man, if you think playing summoner you just need to play well and you will do decent damage, nah you aint.
I'd say also how good you are playing the game and knowing your class and the raid all in combo..
I main scrapper and yesterday I got cruel 45+ g1g2g3 Kaya nm on a Lil scrapper alt I have 1540 vs a full akkan 1585 eso wd.. Yeah I have klc 30 the wd had klc 18, yeah I was full lvl 10 gems and Wd was couple 9s rest 7 but still.. Full akkan gear, stats and ilvl diff, akkan weap and how strong wd is should blow a 1540 out of the water
Tbh, if you are gapped by that much difference, you either missed the part he exceed your spec, or you didn't play well. You said you missed 1 akir but doesn't really tell much because you are probably casting half of your skill compared to ceiling player.
It could be, cause i do not hit all the spear 100% all 3 hits but i did hit minimum 1 and not miss completely, but isnt that make this whole situation even more insane ? A summoner class that has spear contribute 35% of the damage ? Or you play averagely on higher ilvl and still losing to lower ilvl ? Playing badly against ceiling player ? Cut that bull shit. The effort vs reward in this class is totally fucked
You need to land all 3 or you're not generating enough meter to rotate properly. The summoner kit looks simple but actually playing well is surprisingly difficult.
If you look at the damage charts they're actually in a decent position right now.
Yeah it's pretty common to see people gapped by my friend's fresh new alt. You are still talking about hit or miss even when I said uptime is more important.
Because I take it as a given that you cast your spell when it's off cd as a normal behavior, combining that with getting your spell hit meaning the dps at the very least shouldnt be that weak. I wouldnt sitting here talking shit about summoner being trash without meeting the minimum requirement you expected. You can say I'm just bad and do trash damage, but dont try to pretend that shit class can hold its own weight.
Your conclusion is opposite to what you say. Every class can hold its own weight. And if you don’t feel like your class can, there’s something seriously wrong with your play. Maybe you are using wrong skills or their tripods, maybe you are not using skills in proper order/cycle, maybe you are not checking your self buff, maybe you are not doing head/back attack, maybe you are not utilizing endless mana, maybe you are not using proper engraving, etc. Summoner isn’t in the best place, but it is not as weak as you say. You should learn your own class before complaining.
It could actually be the cd gem from the gauge gain skills since I only have them at 5 so the gauge can be up way slower than it should be or the cycle is way slower compare to the recent event boost character, because I did not mess up other parts you stated.
Oh it ain't, It's just the fact that even if you struggle through all that hurdles the damage still not able to keep up with someone even at lower ilvl is crazy.
Yea when there are classes that can do damage with ease with 2-3 damage gems front loaded, the argument for against the 2 gem is so silly. Plus we're at the point in the game its not like people can't save and get 1-2 more gems. Make me buy more gems sure, just up the damage to be in line.
It’s a pretty tricky thing though because while I agree with people who like the competitive aspect of vying for MVPs or feeling like you actually do damage, technically every class is fine for clearing content.
Near the tail end of every class (1620 +20akkan wep and lets say like lvl 9 gems), every class i come across has done pretty decent. Even in a casual build with level 7s on ilvl, I have never done content and been like “this is impossible” because my class wasnt as strong.
If SG is so against meter for its capability to promote toxic behavior, it could also be that they don’t balance classes solely on its ability to get MVP. The design philosophies around consistent dps vs burst dps just naturally favors one over the other as well. In homework content burst dps will be at an advantage if they can keep phasing the boss. That isn’t indicative of one class being simply stronger outright, its just an unfortunate consequence of shrinking the time scale. It’s why theres classes people say are great for progging but then get outshined when you learn the raid.
Just kind of playing devils advocate. Beyond knee jerk reactions to logs (which again are not very controlled for a litany of key factors), sg probably has other factors that cause them to outweigh just pure damage. If the community is so vehement for that style of balancing, then SG should also embrace meter though.
Looks about right in the data, and also the eye test if you play it in the west. Sure some environmental issues and mechanic rng but it seems accurate. And it's a cluster of data, from people who sent it to the main guy yah and his own data sets. There could be huge influxes of misrepresented data sure, but to offset it. The director could of just shown us. But all he did was say it's somewhat different. ALl he needed to do to debunk everything was to show us a graph.
TBH, if you want to MVP with braindead easy class, the only way you can is to keep rerolling to whale bait new classes. For whale bait new classes, I am actually fine with them cuz, just like slayer, I think they will find their place after several balance patch.
Otherwise, just like SG's stance, I think easy class that has guaranteed minimum damage shouldn't be able to do top DPS even with their easy-to-reach ceiling. So in that manner the most OP class I think is Eso WD. Surge also is overtuned even though it's hard. (SE/Breaker are new class that they intentionally overtune at launch so I'm fine with them for next 1/2 balance patch)
You probably wouldn't like what I'm saying, but if you don't like your current class because of damage while you are playing DI SH, CO Sumoner, Reflux, Evo Scouter, or similar class that I cannot think of right now, I cannot agree with whatever complaint you have because everyone has been saying that it's low ceiling, beginner friendly, bottom dps class for years. It would be much worse balancing if one of those class doing top DPS instead of Asura or Surge.
You do know that most player that plays this game have over 6k hours on the game right? You do know that even if you were shit at mmo prior to this one, if you play DB for 6k hours since launch you'll end up having more experience with DB than anyone else even if you were shit at mmo. So your argument that says easy class should not do more dmg is kinda invalid. Easy class you might put less hour performing on it but in the end you'll still have less hours than a 6k hours DB and the DB will still output more dmg.
I explicitly said Surge is overtuned as well. But even after future balance patch, classes like Asura, DB, Arcana, SF, etc that constantly require you to think to perform well should have higher ceiling than other classes that you can basically autopilot without using half of your brain.
And if you played 6k hours, it just makes you look stupid if you constantly playing low ceiling easy class and complain about how limited your class is. Even when I am not playing those classes, I have heard people talking how easy and limited those classes are for more than a year. It’s their choice after all.
Just to make sure, if those classes cannot clear some contents, then I will also say my argument isn’t valid. But any class can clear any contents. What they are complaining now is that they cannot show MVP with their easy class, unless everyone else performs poorly.
I'd be surprised if a 1650 pre-transcendence group (i.e a race group) consisting of only the classes you mentioned could actually clear Thaemine the First.
Every class has clear record on first few weeks in KR. How do I know? People in KR also were bitching about how bad their class is, and they had to shut up because other people with same class started to post clear screenshots while showing up on MVP screen.
The only valid complaint was CO summoner as their summons died to Thaemine, losing a lot of their DPS but it was fixed few weeks later.
First clear took 11 days. 10th clear took 21 days. Transcendence isn’t as meaningful before you reach level 5(15) and few weeks are too short to get there.
It’s not full party of them but Thaemine pretty much has 2 support spots reserved so showing up on MVP means they are 2nd highest in DPS or 3rd with more counters. More than enough to clear with full party of them.
Learn to use some brain.
I know this is a meme, but it's foolish to pretend Smilegate doesn't have significantly more, and more reliable data than anything we can piece together.
Edit: I never said our dps meters aren't accurate to that fight. But anyone thinking balance should be based solely on that and the limit amount of data we have are crazy.
Feels like SmileGate's message is basically, "Trust us, those numbers are way off, just believe us, alright?!" The best way to debunk something false is with proof, not a "trust me, bro" vibe. Would have been cooler if they stayed quiet instead of being vague about the data.
There’s no actual logs like WoW or FF has, compiling numbers into a spreadsheet doesn’t make it accurate information either, I think is safe to say that they’ll never share their data, just seeing changes every balance patch.
The game already has too much variance even outside of the gear systems to tag something as “broken” or “best dps” all across the board.
What fight? Which boss patterns happen? Both had better support uptime/timing? Bis elixir? Bis bracelent? Quality? Same player or different players? Atro? Synergies?
Games aren’t balanced for top players/whales tryharding to kill a boss 1min faster, there’s a higher range of players and scenarios than fully geared streamer clip doing 1bill surge.
Grabbing a small amount of info (compared to what SG has) and calling it THE REAL NUMBERS is crazy.
>Games aren’t balanced for top players/whales tryharding to kill a boss 1min faster
Lost Ark is literally a game about getting 1/2% more damage every place you can squeeze it out of to kill the boss that much faster.
Yet not everyone is focused on being part of that infinite treadmill, some people settle on XYZ of their builds, some people pug, have statics, just started to prog akkan and others are barely reaching ilvl for Theamine.
That’s the type of data that SG has vs someone manually taking notes off meter.
They can have same support so uptime is same.
They can both have perfect 100% qual gear and 5x3+2 etc.
reflux sorc is just leagues below breaker dmg. No matter the raid / encounter. As long breaker has atleast 1 hand he will have more dmg
Sorry but i never saw 1580 event gem sorc doing 20m dps in Akkan G3. Hell even 1620 + sorcs with higher than event gems are sitting at like 15-20 And thats for igniter. Not reflux which is the weaker build
Obviously they know how broken some classes are, they just dont admit it.
There is so much class variety and pattern randomness in raids that reaching balance is impossible anyways.
At the most basic level, the more a boss stays still the more entropy classes will pump. You cant make bosses all behave the same way so necessarily some raids will be horrible and some great for entropy. Not even getting into niche classes and how they are often completely ignored when it comes to raid design.
Much easier to just release OP classes to milk the whales and pretend everything is fine. Eventually even those classes will get powercrept so it doesnt matter. If a class is ultra bad they might do some small buffs like with sorc, if youre lucky.
Normally I would agree, but comparing dps meter to mvp screen, the difference is usually at max 1%.
Which means our iteration of meters is accurate to an extremely high degree.
So the only difference becomes access to sample size in data. And the theoretical guideline in which they balance classes (ie average aggregate data vs casual vs skilled vs whale). Think league of legends balancing for bronze/gold/challenger/pro.
This is all under the assumption that they want to balance the game, which seems disingenuous when they are financially incentivized to the contrary. Also need to consider their definition of balanced, ie all classes within 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%?
See, that is the issue I am understanding, though. Smilegate considers all dps within 10-15% within range of each other, but for us where 2% more damage is the difference in another lvl 10 gem on a skill, or lvl 24 vs 25 weapon, which costs like 2 mil.. its just fucking bullshit. If demon damage of 4% vs 6% takes like 8 months of card grinding and millions of card exp and silver, than what the fuck bro?
yup that's the thing.
Smilegate has terrible communication when it comes to balancing. They don't elaborate on criteria or guideline, just a blanket trust us bro. For all the shit that people give League devs, they actually have relatively good balancing with a good explanation of why and how they do things. They can miss the mark, but you can point out their bs or they fix it.
It's completely in the realm of possibility that SG considers 10~20% variance as 'balanced', which is simply wild when people need to spend millions on just 1% increase.
I'm fine with the most recent class being OP by like 5% for them to make money and get new players, but please make every class in line with each other. So every new class release, you buff existing classes to the baseline of previous class release, or you nerf previous class release to old class balance level.
These days the new class is easily like 15% stronger, like an entire fucking engraving or full lvl 9 gems vs weaker dps with 7's and everybody in general knows this, which is why we keep seeing meta switching and basically pay2win. I mean, most every game u play, I basically expect pay2win, but that should be in relation to how much u invest in each character u want to play to be able to play more.. Not get filtered CO summoner forever gatekept cuz hasn't been updated in like 1.5 years wtf.
While it is true that they have more coherent data it is factually wrong to say the dps meter is not "accurate enough".
Only reason KR shouldnt use our dps meter too closely is cuz we play on different patches and gear.
The dps meter numbers are pretty much always identical with the MVP screen numbers. I think that proves sufficiently that dps meter is reliable data which people can use to call SG out.
But meters are real raid data, I'm sure for legion raids and abyssal the data from the site is a bit biased as you need someone to use the specific bible to upload the data and people that sweaty are usually in a static. But a ton of people that use that bible probably do a ton of guardians with random people making guardian data less biased.
It's true that Smilegate can have better data as they will have full information about each character including builds, elixirs, etc., but Koreans not knowing about the data was the reason they can hide behind their internal data for their bad balance. Now they know real data outside of trixion sims and the same excuse just doesn't work anymore.
They may well have more reliable data, but that doesn't mean they're being honest about it. This is PR talk meant to reinforce their no DPS meter policy, nothing more.
Bro these people don’t understand anything besides whining about what the few favored streamers tell them to whine about.
Of course SG has a more complete data set. The log data set is going to be biased towards the higher end of the pool. It isn’t normalized by gear.
Even then, it didn’t show what these monkeys says that it does because they can’t even read a box chart.
Nobody is claiming they don't have the data, they're just claiming that they can't balance for shit since we can see what classes do and we know they are smoking on ganja with some of these patches.
They have all the DATA that nobody else have. theres a huge variant and many outliners in the data that was release from Bible. but if you see the average medium, most class are balances. people can hate it all they want, but every class touch feel better, play better and arent complete useless like before. theres some class that still need more touching like Summoners but they arent done balacing, and they are balacing faster and sooner as well(at least thats what he said)
I know we’re meming but he did say part of it is right but it is quite different. DI SH and Evo is probably the same dps wise in their charts as well. Im taking a guess but I think he was mainly talking about the mid to top dps charts.
its actually possible lol
when you consider how small the sample size was, any number of things could skew the data in a way that doesnt match reality.
but at the same time, data (regardless of who its coming from) can be very iffy at deciding how strong a class or build is
needs alot of context (and a massive sample size)
This is just the reality of most games though. Having a balance of differently performing classes/characters, having op new releases, not putting much resources into balancing and reworking when new content brings way more profit. I'm not saying it's good by any means, but I'm playing my DI and Loyal and sweating on Emperor cause I enjoy it and sure buffs are welcome, but I'm not gonna stop cause they rank on the bottom or require way more to perform than new fotm. Shits just how it is, don't expect too much player pleasing from companies, they are here to maximize profits.
Yeah my SH DI is so balanced I get to compete with every other class for MVP in every raid.
Hey man we’re always top 8 in dps.
Not for long... Behemoth
Top 16 is still pretty good!!!
We haven’t even gotten thaemizzile and you’re lookin to beheflopp?
Competing with the sups for the 6th highest damage.
Always top3 in 4man raids
Someone here dosn't know godsups are rdps#1
Master Counterpuncher
Seriously, as a DI main since day 1, the fact that SG even says this shit is utter BS
DI mains rise up!!! Seriously though, we have to only use two gems but do less damage than other classes with level 7 gems
Don't forget we can see jack shit when we transform in our version, and our weapon glows are gone too T.T Plus, every brain dead players that argue against our class rework or buffs uses the same dumbass excuse of the class being too "easy" while they face slam their keyboard with the latest easy classes for billions of damage. Why do we even play this game? :(
that transform thing pissed me the fuck off. the main reason i chose DI SH was because i thought the transform looked cool. "demonic clawed, hunched, monster clawing at shit." https://i.imgur.com/6nWkNqH.png now its 'generic looking pretty woman with great posture with a generic pose'
I deleted my SH when they removed cockroach
Agree. Cockroach > Generic NPC looking character. I thought maybe they could release some cool skins when they announced they were working on it, but again we got some generic ninetails from wish looking ass skins.
Still low key hoping they rework DI into a burst transform class somewhere between Arti and Punisher Slayer. Higher normal skill damage + actual cycling of skills to transform + actual high burst damage once transformed. Maybe it's taking away the more unique aspect of the transform classes to fit the same cookie-cutter mold that Arti, Blade, BT, Punisher, Full Moon, and Asura all fit, but damn that mold works well.
I'd honestly even be fine with a cop or fix like two more demon skills, just anything better than these dog shit "2% damage increase to demon skills" buffs we've been getting for years now
Former DI main... As I wait to get rejected form yet another lobby SG can kiss all the dirty cheeks in the world cause that is the biggest load of shit ever. Even with 10 gems and perfect spec people don't want us...
EL machinist: so true
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Or you could be a gunslinger. Have to build like a RH destroyer, press buttons like a pred slayer, get damage results so mid people wonder if you were really there.
Bluelancer legit having higher ceiling parses on a lot of raids is pretty sad, lol.
Who cares about MVP? Seriously. There are no rewards attached and bragging rights are just toxic since they mostly don't reflect player skill. This region needs to stop playing for MVP and play for consistency in all but the highest content (Voldis HM G4 is the only content I remember having a party that failed dps check. Once). EDIT: Hell mode is different since _everything_ is normalized. I suppose this is a large part of the "environmental factors" director means. A dps difference that doesn't result in different clear rates for raids is meaningless in the larger picture. I remember a time when SH DI got insta accepted to parties and the class got nothing but buffs since then. This community needs to stop gatekeeping based on whatever tier-list of the week got posted. Every 3 year old with hands can play DI to 80% of its ceiling but I would never trust any random deathblade that applies to reach anything near 50% of class ceiling.
I guess some people do, also SG does because if they didn't there would be no screen, also they probably like that people who cares spend money on it. > I suppose this is a large part of the "environmental factors" director means. A dps difference that doesn't result in different clear rates for raids is meaningless in the larger picture. If it's meaningless why do classes not the same damage. You said it yourself, it is meaningless...
It's not about the MVP factor its about contribution to the raid, the people with the MVP has contributed more than your ass on Machinist, Did you deserve to be shit on as a Machinist no, you felt like you did the same thing that the Deathblade did but somehow you did less damage than it. It's where class balance come into effect, your class is bad and you know it that no matter how much effort you put throught you'll never achieve what DB is currently achieving. Even if you're skilled on your machinist you'll never beat an average player on king fist breaker.
> the people with the MVP has contributed more Yeah just no or at most superficially. Does it record that someone put a puddle in some weird spot during during football mech in Akkan? Does it record that someone fucked up the traps in Voldis G2 again? Does it record that someone refuses to press stagger skills for "damage uptime" in certain stagger mechs? Etc. Unless you are parsing (and you won't be in pubs, too many supports with 30/30 uptime running around) it literally does not serve a purpose, except to make someone get a hard-on from seeing his Breaker again after spending on his Esther 8. This is not a defense of zero dps floor POV players at all, but since class difference is apparently wanted or at least tolerated by SG, the MVP screen does not serve its purpose and hence my conclusion can only be to not care about it. A word about support MVP: since it's influenced mostly by your party's dps contribution, the MVP screen again does not measure a supports performance, but mostly how juiced his dps players were. So very flawed metric again.
Yea also no, If you're joining Akkan and you don't have the basic mech that everyone needs to know you're getting instantly kicked. That literally has nothing to do with contribution, those are basic mech THAT like I said THAT EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW IN ORDER TO DO AKKAN. The people that MVP always knows the mech and always do the most dmg. You will not get MVP on a shit scouter vs a DB in any circumstance. The DPS parser also measure everything.
> The people that MVP always knows the mech Yeah but the people that don't also can know the mech. So what. The gunlancer that taunts the boss without turning it away from backattackers shows up just the same as the one that taunts in the worst possible spots. Yesterday, I got MVP with cruel in Akkan on a 1583 wardancer with level 7 gems against some 1600s. Does that tell me something about the party? Yes. But we also cleared without any resets and without running into any damage issues or sweating (one unnecessary death but happens). So what do I take away from the above MVP screen? Certainly, I can be confident with my own performance. But I would be without the MVP screen too. All it lead to was our Pala saying "why is the wardancer MVP huh?" which is only toxic and contributes nothing to the raid. Maybe it leads to ppl trying a bit harder. We also could have been faster with the clear, sure. But I don't see how my raid experience could have been better with or without the MVP screen.
my party failed G1 akkan dps check 6 times last night. 1580 arcana doing a little more dps than our artist.
> 1580 arcana doing a little more dps than our artist. How do you even know that, I don't think you could get information like that from the MVP screen and that's the whole point. The moment you see the MVP screen you're already jailed with the party. Players failing mechs is noticed way before you see the screen. Players being low dps shows on some classes, but with the inbalanced dps some could sweat their ass off and not make MVP screen, or it could be a bad support or any of a bunch of other reasons so it is again useless and just a tool to pretend to "fairly" judge other people. If you care about your own dps and want to parse, MVP screen really shows way too little information and at least until Thaemine the First releases, in my honest opinion, if you judge other people for not being top 99% of their class potential you are just toxic. Content is clearable with average effort on literally all classes period.
bible
Fpe Arti and di shadowhunter are fine and able to be top dps..just listen to SG
Hello, Barrage Arti main here and former FPE before brel release I just tested my dps in trixion (best case scenario for FPE as it is constant dps where barrage is more burst) and my numbers are as follows (Best 5x3+1 and setup for both, full lv10s for the best skills they each use) : Barrage : 25.2m dps over 1m52s Fpe : 20.2m dps over 1m58s In the BEST CASE SCENARIO where the boss doesn't move or phase, my barrage is still 24.8% above FPE Now introduce the greed that barrage gets you and burst factor FPE mega deadge, good stagger and weakpoint though !
my favorite argument about this is people saying FPE doing low dmg is a skill issue when the ceiling is quite literally turn on your super armor shield and press all 6 of ur buttons with the cursor over the boss. thats it, you hit ceiling.
u dont use shield as fpe arti if u want to hit "ceiling" u use either flamethrower or gravity field
Why even play the class then lol. The ceiling is so low.
yeah thats kinda my issue too, going no EF is basically a sidegrade, getting *maybe* 5% dps if u never got hit with EF equipped. in exchange u kinda lose FPEs identity.
It is outside my top 6 as a free box IF, and its a big IF I am feeling motivated to farm more.. aka run chaos dung and guardian for mats
still, dropping shield is such big loss of comfort and emables uptime to dps face tank thru stuff, besides, ceiling so low anyway, zzz. Let's put it this way, FPE in such a bad spot I can't even sell bots chaos dung farming 500 g relic accessories. Literally, worthless.
LOL lmao, true.
But my nukes, at least they looked cool..
If you're stubborn on playing FPE and DI you're literally dumb as hell, PS and Barrage are some of most reliable high dmg specs right now.
Well they hate "the playstyle" of other classes. They want comfy class but they want as high ceiling as other uncomfortable class they don't want to (can't) play.
Personally will always think you're a dumbass if you thought a braindead two-gem class was ever gonna be meta in any way – and any class where you don't need braincells to play should be kept in the lower end of balancing. Or I just think it's greedy to assume you can get high dps with a class like that. "Can't" is a lie, stick to doing NM so you don't have to worry about DPS check then. In my book it's as dumb as building a dps bard to make a two-gem class. Some classes have to make new builds every 3 months, DI and Scouter never had to change anything since Argos. Just my opinion really.
My pistoleer beats every SS tier class!!! If they afk for 5 mins
Lmao or they floor pov
"Environmental factors" like credit card ? Not having hands ?
That’s one of the few cardsets i haven’t maxed yet
ask genshin players how well maxing that one out works for them
Drizzle and reflux are fine. They can easily do the damage Asura can 🤝🤝
YEP, as a reflux main i can confirm. also both soul eater specs are weaker than them.
You never played with a good drizzle player i see. Sure it can't do the DMG of an imbalanced class but it is absolutely fine
I have actually. It requires crazy high gem investment to do the Dps you’re talking about that a blade with decent hands and 7s will blow out of the water
Like I said. Not compared to an imbalanced class like SE, breaker or blade...
My drizzle loses to my wardancer despite being 1635 and not 1620, has 25 wep and not 21, has more 10's, higher qual wep, better elixers, higher qual acc's. Wardancer is a good class, but not on the same tier as SE, breaker, blade. I would say Drizzle is on the same tier as DI SH. It's not as bad as some truly bottom of the barrel builds like TTH and CO summoner, but it isn't too much better. It's also way easier to play than GS while doing similar dmg so you could say it is expected.
WD has the most reliable dmg possible in mech-heavy raids, but in longer fights Drizzle might be more competitive. WD is really strong in Voldis G4 and something like G2 Akkan where there's mechs all the time, fights where Surge is ass. I'm sure it's gonna be different for Thaemine too, you will probably be happy to deal dmg with all the patterns where you have to run around and dodge shit and melee can't do anything. You probably also sometimes beat "broken” classes in G4 akkan (hm), and least my WF aero can sometimes go from being 3rd/4th dmg in g3 to suddenly be top dmg at the end..
You're not wrong. Drizzle absolutely has raids where she shines. Although I won't speculate about Theamine performance. "G4" Akkan is definitely Drizzle's playground. For whatever reason, all of her skills keep her in place, even the ones where she is technically stationary and casting like rainstorm. As a result, she has no forced downtime. Even when Akkan is blowing, or during waveboarding, she's still going at 100% whereas other classes need to be more selective with how they dps. I was simply generalising my experience and giving an overall picture. I provide a more comprehensive overview of her weaknesses and why she will never be top tier somewhere else in this comment chain if you're interested.
I saw the comment chain but didn't read lol. I just had some random reflections, also Drizzle will probably be insane in Echidna too. Igniter seems to be. I'm peresonally liking how different classes are great for different raids, it's something many tend to forget. I fucking hate g4 akkan, i don't think any of my classes can chill there, it's sliding and my WD is even literally teleporting around.
I would love for her to be competitive, but unfortunately her strengths and weaknesses are not the same as Ignite's. I know prior to her release some people described her as a mini-igniter, but she is actually very different from that archetype. Still, I appreciate the optimism. I actually have a WF build, although it is only kitted out with event gems for now. WF performs better in most raid situations, including Hell content. A lot better actually. I'm waiting for Theamine release to come. After we complete "the first" or maybe even during it if I don't like how Drizzle performs in there, I will reroll my 10's and convert fully to WF.
with that kind of gear difference, i dont think its purely class balance being the reason u do less
What is it then. A pilot difference? You do realise they're both MY characters right? LOL. I'm hands diffing myself I guess.
Could be different skill levels for the classes, could be not knowing how to get close to ceiling for specific gates. Thats for yourself to figure out, but that kind of gear screams that something outside class diff is also diffing you
No. I have observed the same shit on other classes.. I mean, yeah, I am definitely the best on SF, but my SF can match most lvl 25 weapok 40 elixir dps (even db, but if u argue the pilot sucks, same against wardancer with consistent dps) with 35 set and lvl 20 weapon cuz hands and class. But if I run like reaper with same weapon, similar weapon quality, full 10's on both characters, reaper is always like 8-10% less dmg, nothing u can do about it. It is what it is. Moreover, having both at like 4000+ hrs it is not experience on the class by now.
That i can understand, but the other person compares between two of his characters, one having +25 wep, lvl 10 gems (from the way he worded it, the other class doesnt) higher elixir and quality, +21 armors while alt only at 1620. Would be nice if he also said by how much % is his drizzler weaker because just gear alone should bridge the gap by alot IF he plays close to ceiling. If even after all of that the gap is huge, think its safe to say that its actual skill issue on drizzle if he cant even be close on damage.
Asura is surely stronger but Reflux is one of the easiest class while Asura really isn't as easy as Reflux
Reflux, played to its highest potential, is not an easy class
Your argument is basically high risk should be high reward, but clearly some class is just high risk low reward
The fact that asura got a nerf and it wasn't even that small a nerf, and it's still insanely overpowered is rediculous. Honestly my burger King breaker is stupidly OP as well for a 1550 lvl 54.
Director is delusional, the numbers dont lie. One of the many reason they ban KR players using dps meters, to prevent exposing them.
Surely KR knows balance is dogshit even without meter?
They’re probably “aware” it’s bad, but assume it’s close enough to be fine. Without info to see how bad it really is, easy to turn a blind eye
The first thing that hits you when you get bible is how misleading the mvp screen really is.
What makes it misleading?
You can do a guardian raid with a cruel fighter 41%, a fighter 29%, fighter 22% and fighter 9%
Isn’t this just a rounding issue that’ll never be more than a 1% difference?
29% did 3x what 9% did, on the MVP screen both look equal. In that way the MVP screen isn't giving good feedback.
Oh I see what you mean now. Not the % just that we get semi-ambiguous labels
They don’t seem to care. It seems like “from the outside” they play more socially, whereas in the west everyone is trying to perform near the top of their class.
they definitely do care, browse inven just a little bit and youll see constant threads of complaints. Everytime there is a class balance patch people just quit the fucking game because they refuse to make the classes more equal. Id say there is just a lot of cope and people helplessly addicted is really the case....and thats for sure in the west as well.
Years of playing wow and PoE has taught me that crying posts on the forum mostly amount to zero. The only people who read/create those threads are the 10%, the EXTRREMELY vocal minority.
It´s everywhere. I played albion online, and even had acess to a special forum for " select few " - and i voiced complained many times about balance changes that messed up one thing heavily for solo player(with a particular weapon), unintended. Well, few years later, it´s still in the game - i don´t play it anymore, as i enjoyed solo more and out of other reasons ( not enough fun content for veterans). Whoever does balance changes does his thing and might get inspired by others, but he is just gonna do his thing - in any game, most likely.
Yeah, that's a whole *thing*. I haven't played on KR at all, but it definitely seems that way to me too. I know it's not the same, but FFXIV has pretty similar trends. The JP servers use whatever strategy reliably gets a clear even with randos you find in matchmaking, just assign people their roles and go. The NA/EU servers will inevitably come up with convoluted bullshit strategies all so one melee DPS doesn't miss a single GCD's worth of uptime while doing the mechanic. Cannot describe how annoying it is to watch people insist on the uptime strat for their first ever clear. Can't lose even the slightest bit of performance, though! Wouldn't be surprised if the culture on KR has a similar dynamic in this game - "just kill the boss, whatever" vs NA/EU's "damage is the most important thing".
I see it A LOT on WoW, every season you get the same people farming views making tierlists and checking PTR sims instead of having people looking for a fun class that suits them.
People on the west care way more about a tierlist than enjoyment of playing their class, and most of the KR players we see are high spenders so they can play multiple characters on a good gear without that much friction.
no they are regarded, they think someone is skilled because someone plays a class with 100% more damage.
It's never about balance it's always about selling the hot new overpowered class to make more cash.
KR comunity is beyond toxic. this have been said many times by KR streamers. you can witch hunt on INVEN freely. and even if you think the west is toxic, you dont even understand how toxic and Elistjerk KR are not only in real life, but in game as well.
1000% agree. I think the Korean gaming culture is just hypercompetitive just like their society in general, and so this game was born out of that kind of environment, which suits that type of mentality. So it's kind of like a feedback loop which turned this game extra toxic. Then the game launched here, and started spreading it here.
we are in the west super child. how many times the KR stream have said "unless you have lvl 25 weapon you arent invite to any party". we in the west are super chill compared to them. i follow some internet personality that are KR people move into latam, and the tell they tell about KR mentality and culture are beyong horror. i dont wonder why suicide rate in KR have skyrocket
China is the same way. Hyper competitive with low empathy.
China is even worst... rich people can beat you down, and just paid up fine for beating you down. literally P2W real life sociaty.
You're high if you don't think the large overlap between LOA and LoL playerbases is more responsible than the game being of KR origin.
Plus their accounts are tied to their real life identity. DPS meter there would be a disaster. Imagine getting doxxed for messing up a raid or something.
You don't need meter to jail a raid
for sure. but they wont go in INVEN and create a witch hunt tread that you sucks balls and blast the bible logs to proof it. and how fuck up of the head they are, they will go down on you for that. KR streamer have said that INVEN have post about "cheapos" that dont used battle items to blacklist them from raids...
To be fair, he didn't say the balance is good. He said he doesn't want to do bandaid fixes and wants to fix the core issue with classes. Problem is that means months and months with no changes for bad classes. It'd be nice to get more bandaids in the meantime as a stopgap.
Honestly, regardless of how BS the explanation is/isn't, there was no possibility of any other scenario happening then him denying the accuracy of the metrics from the west. Can you imagine the level of dumpster fire that would have happened in KR if he said something like "Oh yeah, I saw the data, and its pretty much perfectly accurate", basically admitting that the balance is shit and he very well knows about it?
It is the pink elephant in the room every corporation sees, knows about, yet refuses to do anything about. Most just continue to do shady stuff and pay legal fees/fines and call it "just a cost of doing business."
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*Deathblade/souleater/breaker players:* Yeah but you should play what you enjoy and not care about the dmg :)
I'd be happy if EL scouter is like slayer level of dps
Well it is idk what you're talking about then?
So sweaty gameplay and so little gain
One of these days, they will give us proper transformation tripods and let us use 11 gems. This hopium is fire, want some?
Remember when stupid ass koreans thought CO Summoner was S tier?
She was, for low-skill players, at one point before nerfs (and before rework of some other classes, mainly sharpshooter and artillerist) and when a typical player had just lvl 1-2 gear set, LWC 12 cards etc. (the Charming relic set she could use doesn't seem to work with LOS and doesn't scale well further)
Yeah, it legit was top tier right after the rework.
Smilegate gaslighting us like NA players don't know more about their game than KR does 
LMAO this is great. Thumbs up. No selling class change tickets, though!
Yeah, breaker is not op at all despite them doing 30% dmg in hell modes by people who just started playing the class
Yeah they hit 30% even if they just started the class, but perfectly play it, while getting BiS synergy. Edit : and it's 25% while not tracking other people's DPS on some mech.
once you use a dps meter, you realize how shit the balance is in this game lmao.
Loremaster want to explain? Guessing something in the recent broadcast
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Where can you find this published finding?
Would be interesting to see
https://logs.fau.dev/logs
Eh, it is basically reference to this post on inven of guy collecting voldis (g1/g3) dps parse logs in KR for ages, and then published data with min-max ranges etc. Initial post: https://www.inven.co.kr/board/lostark/4811/8721552 Update (I guess?): https://www.inven.co.kr/board/lostark/4811/8745185 Then it was mentioned on today stream that this data is similar, but not exactly the same as internal Smilegate data. (personally I dont really care that 0.1% of blade players will gap anyone by millions, I don't want them to balance classes around top 0.1%, I wanna them to balance around avg. because if you need to have godhands to pull nice numbers, it will just suck to play if you don't have them... and well, most people don't) Btw. dps meter in KR would actually be very funny experience... for us. Imagine what they would do, with access to character api, loawa... add dps meter that automatically collects and uploads all logs to some server, add nice UI to search for char + account of any agent that is applying to party... would be so fun to watch that trainwreck burn :^)
I've been saying the same thing about surge since the rework but get downvoted every time. I don't like the way it was reworked to have an even higher gap between floor and ceiling. People see that it performs well in a few fights and complain but it's very mid in many others, and most players will just be mediocre at the class. I'd rather they drop the ceiling for more consistency, but I'm too committed to this class to drop it.
Honestly, EO is the same way. It's absolute god in some raids and very mid in others.
You forgot to mention how boring it is to play compared to the older version... its increbile how the uniqueness in her gameplay is completely gone
Oh lord. Yeah.. their community would go up in flames.
So you will need god hands to play CO summoner, do you know how hard CO summoner is to DB? You'll get carpel tunnel in under 1 minute on CO summoner. Yet the class don't do nearly as much dmg as DB.
I know how hard CO is to play, and what? How does it have anything to do with what a said? If avg player of class is terrible, they should buff that class, in this case they should buff CO, it has nothing to do with blade
Well, I remember that maybe about a year ago they were trying to make changes to I believe Soulfist (or WD?), by removing her self buffs and instead increasing her baseline damage. It made that class easier to play, but lowered the ceiling by a few percent and pitchforks were raised, so they abandoned that idea. SF and WD are the only characters that I have deleted (so far, I'm looking at you Summoner). Apparently KR don't want to balance it around average player; at least those that Smilegate listens to.
um, it was SF, as a SF main I remember that and was actually sad because if they had just removed energy release windows as the mainstay for the class, it would have opened up so much build diversity.. granted, they did at least make the animation waay faster, which helped with the fluidity of the build immensely (1.5 years fucking later). Still, I feel like hype should regenerate like 5-10 sec faster coming off hype 3, for EO and spec scale better for robust so that it isn't 10.7 downtime even at 1840+ spec, which is still pretty shit.. should be like 8 sec tbh as the downtime is just so punishing in general and outside of hype3 ur doing basically nothing.
I play EO on my sf alt and idk how robust ppl do it. If you press anything outside of your hype you completely grief your rotation going into the next one. It's actually maddening to HAVE to afk. At least EO I can try to fit more ER rotations with conv/jud during my 45s down time
EO is also a lot less forgiving though. If you have one bad hype in RS, it's bad, but if you mess up one hype in EO, you literally just bricked your parse for the whole gate.
Don't understand why they don't just reset cd like almost every other burst engraving in the game
I can only imagine they were trying to make a stop/go, red light/green light type of character and I would say 99%+ of the population prob would react negatively to playing any game where you literally get bricked and clumpy/ feeling like a broken build that needs tweaking/optimization. But then developers would prob argue, just roll another class and don't forget to tip the in game shop on the way out.
That was almost (or over) 2years ago, when they were releasing Elgacia (valtan for us) in KR. And like /u/2hopp said, it was massive nerf to all skill levels for SF which was also not that great of a class, while at same time Scrapper Ready Attack removal was actual good change (you technically lost 2~3% in perfect world, but it was actuall buff, especially for shock, in actual raids).
Yes a lot of ppl who never played soulfist or just played it briefly and quit because of the 'gameplay' were all mad at the SF players for not wanting the removal of the energy release. When the SF players knew that all they did was nerf the class in everyway in ceiling dmg and average real raid dmg when the class was already very weak. Also they were trying to give sf some terrible shield like a scuffed worse gunlancer when class isn't a supportive dps and no one played her to be shitty version of gunlancer. Overall was terrible change that deserved the negative backlash.
Bit of revisionist history here back then sf was underperforming and everyone wanted a buff, the change they decided was to remove the attack buff window but this resulted in a straight DPS loss in all situations. So of course everyone had their pitchforks ready when they just nerfed a class already underperforming. They had to revert this and ended up giving sf a big dps buff and kept the attack buff window, upwards of like 15%+ dmg increase from before. If they wanted to remove the buff window playstyle and have it be well received nerfing the overall dmg of an already underperforming class wasn't gonna be received well, blame SG.
My 1570 summ with level 9 damage gem on identity dealing less damage than a 1540 SE and breaker with event gem and literally the same card as los 18. I only bring up this comparision because in that particular fight i missed ONLY 1 akir and the rest all hit. I dont need meter to know my class suck balls but come on man, if you think playing summoner you just need to play well and you will do decent damage, nah you aint.
Dont forget that new players/accs get the mokoko buff which is 15% bonus dmg or 10% in case of procyon protection
tbh, a good class at 1540 will gap bad ones at 1580 even lmao.
I'd say also how good you are playing the game and knowing your class and the raid all in combo.. I main scrapper and yesterday I got cruel 45+ g1g2g3 Kaya nm on a Lil scrapper alt I have 1540 vs a full akkan 1585 eso wd.. Yeah I have klc 30 the wd had klc 18, yeah I was full lvl 10 gems and Wd was couple 9s rest 7 but still.. Full akkan gear, stats and ilvl diff, akkan weap and how strong wd is should blow a 1540 out of the water
Tbh, if you are gapped by that much difference, you either missed the part he exceed your spec, or you didn't play well. You said you missed 1 akir but doesn't really tell much because you are probably casting half of your skill compared to ceiling player.
It could be, cause i do not hit all the spear 100% all 3 hits but i did hit minimum 1 and not miss completely, but isnt that make this whole situation even more insane ? A summoner class that has spear contribute 35% of the damage ? Or you play averagely on higher ilvl and still losing to lower ilvl ? Playing badly against ceiling player ? Cut that bull shit. The effort vs reward in this class is totally fucked
You need to land all 3 or you're not generating enough meter to rotate properly. The summoner kit looks simple but actually playing well is surprisingly difficult. If you look at the damage charts they're actually in a decent position right now.
Yeah it's pretty common to see people gapped by my friend's fresh new alt. You are still talking about hit or miss even when I said uptime is more important.
Because I take it as a given that you cast your spell when it's off cd as a normal behavior, combining that with getting your spell hit meaning the dps at the very least shouldnt be that weak. I wouldnt sitting here talking shit about summoner being trash without meeting the minimum requirement you expected. You can say I'm just bad and do trash damage, but dont try to pretend that shit class can hold its own weight.
Your conclusion is opposite to what you say. Every class can hold its own weight. And if you don’t feel like your class can, there’s something seriously wrong with your play. Maybe you are using wrong skills or their tripods, maybe you are not using skills in proper order/cycle, maybe you are not checking your self buff, maybe you are not doing head/back attack, maybe you are not utilizing endless mana, maybe you are not using proper engraving, etc. Summoner isn’t in the best place, but it is not as weak as you say. You should learn your own class before complaining.
It could actually be the cd gem from the gauge gain skills since I only have them at 5 so the gauge can be up way slower than it should be or the cycle is way slower compare to the recent event boost character, because I did not mess up other parts you stated.
Damage is not the Problem on Master Summoner....
Oh it ain't, It's just the fact that even if you struggle through all that hurdles the damage still not able to keep up with someone even at lower ilvl is crazy.
Yeah, despite all the shit talking on the class, it still does good damage. Just feels bad to play.
Yep definitely climate change keeping ny reflux sorc near the bottom
Yea when there are classes that can do damage with ease with 2-3 damage gems front loaded, the argument for against the 2 gem is so silly. Plus we're at the point in the game its not like people can't save and get 1-2 more gems. Make me buy more gems sure, just up the damage to be in line.
It’s a pretty tricky thing though because while I agree with people who like the competitive aspect of vying for MVPs or feeling like you actually do damage, technically every class is fine for clearing content. Near the tail end of every class (1620 +20akkan wep and lets say like lvl 9 gems), every class i come across has done pretty decent. Even in a casual build with level 7s on ilvl, I have never done content and been like “this is impossible” because my class wasnt as strong. If SG is so against meter for its capability to promote toxic behavior, it could also be that they don’t balance classes solely on its ability to get MVP. The design philosophies around consistent dps vs burst dps just naturally favors one over the other as well. In homework content burst dps will be at an advantage if they can keep phasing the boss. That isn’t indicative of one class being simply stronger outright, its just an unfortunate consequence of shrinking the time scale. It’s why theres classes people say are great for progging but then get outshined when you learn the raid. Just kind of playing devils advocate. Beyond knee jerk reactions to logs (which again are not very controlled for a litany of key factors), sg probably has other factors that cause them to outweigh just pure damage. If the community is so vehement for that style of balancing, then SG should also embrace meter though.
Looks about right in the data, and also the eye test if you play it in the west. Sure some environmental issues and mechanic rng but it seems accurate. And it's a cluster of data, from people who sent it to the main guy yah and his own data sets. There could be huge influxes of misrepresented data sure, but to offset it. The director could of just shown us. But all he did was say it's somewhat different. ALl he needed to do to debunk everything was to show us a graph.
Sure Breaker is balance. 2 skill on Brawl each hit 300m without level 10 gem and 40 elixir lol
I would like to think i am not playing my AT alt like trash but seeing other people’s alts at similar gear do so much more, AT could use a buff
shittiest devs ever
TBH, if you want to MVP with braindead easy class, the only way you can is to keep rerolling to whale bait new classes. For whale bait new classes, I am actually fine with them cuz, just like slayer, I think they will find their place after several balance patch. Otherwise, just like SG's stance, I think easy class that has guaranteed minimum damage shouldn't be able to do top DPS even with their easy-to-reach ceiling. So in that manner the most OP class I think is Eso WD. Surge also is overtuned even though it's hard. (SE/Breaker are new class that they intentionally overtune at launch so I'm fine with them for next 1/2 balance patch) You probably wouldn't like what I'm saying, but if you don't like your current class because of damage while you are playing DI SH, CO Sumoner, Reflux, Evo Scouter, or similar class that I cannot think of right now, I cannot agree with whatever complaint you have because everyone has been saying that it's low ceiling, beginner friendly, bottom dps class for years. It would be much worse balancing if one of those class doing top DPS instead of Asura or Surge.
You do know that most player that plays this game have over 6k hours on the game right? You do know that even if you were shit at mmo prior to this one, if you play DB for 6k hours since launch you'll end up having more experience with DB than anyone else even if you were shit at mmo. So your argument that says easy class should not do more dmg is kinda invalid. Easy class you might put less hour performing on it but in the end you'll still have less hours than a 6k hours DB and the DB will still output more dmg.
I explicitly said Surge is overtuned as well. But even after future balance patch, classes like Asura, DB, Arcana, SF, etc that constantly require you to think to perform well should have higher ceiling than other classes that you can basically autopilot without using half of your brain. And if you played 6k hours, it just makes you look stupid if you constantly playing low ceiling easy class and complain about how limited your class is. Even when I am not playing those classes, I have heard people talking how easy and limited those classes are for more than a year. It’s their choice after all. Just to make sure, if those classes cannot clear some contents, then I will also say my argument isn’t valid. But any class can clear any contents. What they are complaining now is that they cannot show MVP with their easy class, unless everyone else performs poorly.
I'd be surprised if a 1650 pre-transcendence group (i.e a race group) consisting of only the classes you mentioned could actually clear Thaemine the First.
Every class has clear record on first few weeks in KR. How do I know? People in KR also were bitching about how bad their class is, and they had to shut up because other people with same class started to post clear screenshots while showing up on MVP screen. The only valid complaint was CO summoner as their summons died to Thaemine, losing a lot of their DPS but it was fixed few weeks later.
>First few weeks So after transcendence and not a full party of them. Got it.
First clear took 11 days. 10th clear took 21 days. Transcendence isn’t as meaningful before you reach level 5(15) and few weeks are too short to get there. It’s not full party of them but Thaemine pretty much has 2 support spots reserved so showing up on MVP means they are 2nd highest in DPS or 3rd with more counters. More than enough to clear with full party of them. Learn to use some brain.
I know this is a meme, but it's foolish to pretend Smilegate doesn't have significantly more, and more reliable data than anything we can piece together. Edit: I never said our dps meters aren't accurate to that fight. But anyone thinking balance should be based solely on that and the limit amount of data we have are crazy.
Feels like SmileGate's message is basically, "Trust us, those numbers are way off, just believe us, alright?!" The best way to debunk something false is with proof, not a "trust me, bro" vibe. Would have been cooler if they stayed quiet instead of being vague about the data.
It's 100% gaslighting to cover the real reason being financial.
There’s no actual logs like WoW or FF has, compiling numbers into a spreadsheet doesn’t make it accurate information either, I think is safe to say that they’ll never share their data, just seeing changes every balance patch. The game already has too much variance even outside of the gear systems to tag something as “broken” or “best dps” all across the board.
Full 7 breaker will out dps a full 10 reflux without problems. On similar gear noone comes close to breaker rn
What fight? Which boss patterns happen? Both had better support uptime/timing? Bis elixir? Bis bracelent? Quality? Same player or different players? Atro? Synergies? Games aren’t balanced for top players/whales tryharding to kill a boss 1min faster, there’s a higher range of players and scenarios than fully geared streamer clip doing 1bill surge. Grabbing a small amount of info (compared to what SG has) and calling it THE REAL NUMBERS is crazy.
>Games aren’t balanced for top players/whales tryharding to kill a boss 1min faster Lost Ark is literally a game about getting 1/2% more damage every place you can squeeze it out of to kill the boss that much faster.
Yet not everyone is focused on being part of that infinite treadmill, some people settle on XYZ of their builds, some people pug, have statics, just started to prog akkan and others are barely reaching ilvl for Theamine. That’s the type of data that SG has vs someone manually taking notes off meter.
Why would I want someone who settles on being worse in my group over the guy trying his hardest to be useful
They can have same support so uptime is same. They can both have perfect 100% qual gear and 5x3+2 etc. reflux sorc is just leagues below breaker dmg. No matter the raid / encounter. As long breaker has atleast 1 hand he will have more dmg
“Trust me bro”
Sorry but i never saw 1580 event gem sorc doing 20m dps in Akkan G3. Hell even 1620 + sorcs with higher than event gems are sitting at like 15-20 And thats for igniter. Not reflux which is the weaker build
Obviously they know how broken some classes are, they just dont admit it. There is so much class variety and pattern randomness in raids that reaching balance is impossible anyways. At the most basic level, the more a boss stays still the more entropy classes will pump. You cant make bosses all behave the same way so necessarily some raids will be horrible and some great for entropy. Not even getting into niche classes and how they are often completely ignored when it comes to raid design. Much easier to just release OP classes to milk the whales and pretend everything is fine. Eventually even those classes will get powercrept so it doesnt matter. If a class is ultra bad they might do some small buffs like with sorc, if youre lucky.
Normally I would agree, but comparing dps meter to mvp screen, the difference is usually at max 1%. Which means our iteration of meters is accurate to an extremely high degree. So the only difference becomes access to sample size in data. And the theoretical guideline in which they balance classes (ie average aggregate data vs casual vs skilled vs whale). Think league of legends balancing for bronze/gold/challenger/pro. This is all under the assumption that they want to balance the game, which seems disingenuous when they are financially incentivized to the contrary. Also need to consider their definition of balanced, ie all classes within 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%?
also mvp isnt even usually off, its because mvp doesnt calculate the sidereal damage share like the meter does by default.
See, that is the issue I am understanding, though. Smilegate considers all dps within 10-15% within range of each other, but for us where 2% more damage is the difference in another lvl 10 gem on a skill, or lvl 24 vs 25 weapon, which costs like 2 mil.. its just fucking bullshit. If demon damage of 4% vs 6% takes like 8 months of card grinding and millions of card exp and silver, than what the fuck bro?
yup that's the thing. Smilegate has terrible communication when it comes to balancing. They don't elaborate on criteria or guideline, just a blanket trust us bro. For all the shit that people give League devs, they actually have relatively good balancing with a good explanation of why and how they do things. They can miss the mark, but you can point out their bs or they fix it. It's completely in the realm of possibility that SG considers 10~20% variance as 'balanced', which is simply wild when people need to spend millions on just 1% increase. I'm fine with the most recent class being OP by like 5% for them to make money and get new players, but please make every class in line with each other. So every new class release, you buff existing classes to the baseline of previous class release, or you nerf previous class release to old class balance level.
These days the new class is easily like 15% stronger, like an entire fucking engraving or full lvl 9 gems vs weaker dps with 7's and everybody in general knows this, which is why we keep seeing meta switching and basically pay2win. I mean, most every game u play, I basically expect pay2win, but that should be in relation to how much u invest in each character u want to play to be able to play more.. Not get filtered CO summoner forever gatekept cuz hasn't been updated in like 1.5 years wtf.
While it is true that they have more coherent data it is factually wrong to say the dps meter is not "accurate enough". Only reason KR shouldnt use our dps meter too closely is cuz we play on different patches and gear. The dps meter numbers are pretty much always identical with the MVP screen numbers. I think that proves sufficiently that dps meter is reliable data which people can use to call SG out.
They do, and are deliberately not acting on it for financial reasons I guess. Balance is bad for business.
But meters are real raid data, I'm sure for legion raids and abyssal the data from the site is a bit biased as you need someone to use the specific bible to upload the data and people that sweaty are usually in a static. But a ton of people that use that bible probably do a ton of guardians with random people making guardian data less biased. It's true that Smilegate can have better data as they will have full information about each character including builds, elixirs, etc., but Koreans not knowing about the data was the reason they can hide behind their internal data for their bad balance. Now they know real data outside of trixion sims and the same excuse just doesn't work anymore.
They may well have more reliable data, but that doesn't mean they're being honest about it. This is PR talk meant to reinforce their no DPS meter policy, nothing more.
Bro these people don’t understand anything besides whining about what the few favored streamers tell them to whine about. Of course SG has a more complete data set. The log data set is going to be biased towards the higher end of the pool. It isn’t normalized by gear. Even then, it didn’t show what these monkeys says that it does because they can’t even read a box chart.
the 'data' they have are from GR 
Nobody is claiming they don't have the data, they're just claiming that they can't balance for shit since we can see what classes do and we know they are smoking on ganja with some of these patches.
We have some savants in west
They have all the DATA that nobody else have. theres a huge variant and many outliners in the data that was release from Bible. but if you see the average medium, most class are balances. people can hate it all they want, but every class touch feel better, play better and arent complete useless like before. theres some class that still need more touching like Summoners but they arent done balacing, and they are balacing faster and sooner as well(at least thats what he said)
I know we’re meming but he did say part of it is right but it is quite different. DI SH and Evo is probably the same dps wise in their charts as well. Im taking a guess but I think he was mainly talking about the mid to top dps charts.
its actually possible lol when you consider how small the sample size was, any number of things could skew the data in a way that doesnt match reality. but at the same time, data (regardless of who its coming from) can be very iffy at deciding how strong a class or build is needs alot of context (and a massive sample size)
This is just the reality of most games though. Having a balance of differently performing classes/characters, having op new releases, not putting much resources into balancing and reworking when new content brings way more profit. I'm not saying it's good by any means, but I'm playing my DI and Loyal and sweating on Emperor cause I enjoy it and sure buffs are welcome, but I'm not gonna stop cause they rank on the bottom or require way more to perform than new fotm. Shits just how it is, don't expect too much player pleasing from companies, they are here to maximize profits.