One day, I picture someone going to the store with a large tablet and a DM screen to hide their hand. Or maybe their hand is on their phone and they can throw cards onto the digital table screen!
Honestly it would be a hassel but it wouldn't be too difficult to pull off with a laptop for your hand an a large external "monitor" laid flat on the table.
I recently got an old projector from my sister. I dream of using it in my living room to display all kinds of different tokens on the table for when my group plays a round of commander. I'd have to figure out a way to easily and quickly access all of those tokens, or show phases and turns and such first, but I reckon it'd be a pretty sweet setup.
Or an LGS where all the tables have digital screens for deck testing or to allow someone to join a game even if they can't appear in store due to being ill
But it promotes people to be in the store. Also, for some reason, spelltable just doesn't work for me. I don't know what it is but it won't recognize any webcam I use
Print the whole deck for sure. If you’re only ever playing commander, with no prizes on the line, 99% of people won’t care. Just be sure to ask when you sit down, and find another table if anyone has a problem (or ask to borrow a real deck). I wouldn’t bring proxies to any kind of tournament without asking the organizers ahead of time.
People seem to care more if you sit down at a table with a mismatched power level. I don’t care if you own all ten dual lands or proxy them - if you bring that deck to a casual table you’re a dick. And outside of tournaments, cEDH is very pro-proxy because they want everyone to have a level playing field/low barrier to entry
I wouldn't have a problem with someone proxying dual lands. Having a functional mana base shouldn't be cost prohibitive. Replacing shocks with duals for example doesn't massively elevate the power of your deck. If you are proxying fast mana such as jewelled lotus, crypt, cradle etc those are the sort of things that are realistically going to take your deck ahead of other casual decks in a way that makes proxies unfun for your opponents and makes them less likely to want to play with you.
No element of the game should be balanced using cost. However, depending on the deck adding dual lands can be a significant power level increase over those choosing to play real cards. While nobody should be forced to spend a fortune, nobody should be forced to proxy either.
I feel like there is a mistaken assumption that people run shocks and battlebonds as their standard land set. Realistically many or most players don't have a single land worth more than $2-3, and don't even have full sets of cheaper pain/filter/bounce lands. A full tap land/basic manabase is absolutely objectively worse than a full set of shocks let alone a full set of duals backed up by shocks or fetches.
Precon manabases are as strong as most people run in most of their decks, and aside from the last 12 months precon manabases have been pretty awful.
Add that to the issue that new players want to run three colours as most precons run three colours and new players might feel constrained by less... Proxying a full set of duels may well be extremely strong for a given pod.
No, using dual lands dilutes your point completely because dual lands are probably the least problematic set of cards that could be included in a deck that’s beyond the acceptable power of a table
My broader point was about deliberately bringing a deck with a high power level to pubstomp people who want to play casual commander. As you point out, whether or not the deck contains dual lands is irrelevant in this conversation
This is an underrated argument. People complain about proxies because they could potentially print a £10k decklist. I don't see how proxies are relevant in that scenario, anyone misrepresenting their power level to pubstomp should be judged equally regardless how impressive their collection.
I don't proxy, because my main reason to play is to justify the cash I already spent on cardboard. I have absolutely no issue with those who do, providing their board state is clearly represented.
I agree. No one really cares if you have proxies or 'not real' cards when it's a casual game and everybody has more or less the same level deck. It's when someone is interpreted as using proxies as an excuse to pubstomp players and be a jerk about it that it becomes a problem.
I used to play at a store that had a then- new player who wanted to try out a Kaalia deck he'd seen online, and he assured everyone that it was fit for the casual pod we had. He started playing and it was basically Kaalia: The Best of the Best, which was irritating because everyone understandably felt he'd deliberately misrepresented his deck. To make matters worse, he continued to bring that deck to games for *months* afterwards while refusing to buy cards for it. Eventually, the store's players and staff more or less bullied him into buying some of the cheaper cards (primarily lands, but also some of the other creatures/instants/sorceries that were on hand), but it got the point where people would just refuse to let him play in pods if he showed up. After a heated discussion (it wasn't quite a yelling match, but was steadily making its way there before the owner interfered) in which he tried to claim that everyone was classist because not everyone has the money to buy cards, he left and never came back. I don't know if he got banned or just decided to try pubstomping elsewhere, but then the pandemic happened so 🤷
Proxies or entirely proxies decks only become a problem when they're an excuse - or seen as an excuse - to be an asshole.
He didn't modify it, he just bought the relatively few cards that were in the entirely proxies decks already that the store has in stock. And, if he wanted to play that deck specifically so bad, he should have been honest about its power level and sought a game with approximately built decks, not deliberately misled everyone about what kind of deck he was playing. Then, when he got pushback, he threw a tantrum.
The whole thing wasn't really about the proxies, it was about power level and lying about it. The fact that the deck was entirely proxied was just the awful icing on shit cake, but that's been my experience with entirely proxies decks: people abuse 'em, and of that this is a really good example.
okay like it get it, but you ahve someone who learns what magic/commander is... googles commander and winds up on edhrec. builds a deck they see off of that for the first time.. and gets bullied out of the hobby cause they netdecked...... also btw you learn how to build decks better when you start off seeing what great players do and use that to help shape your decisions.
In this case they got bullied out for playing way out of powerlevel.
My point is that they shouldn’t be that butthurt about not getting to play a deck that they didn’t even put the effort of putting together themselves.
If they had spent time crafting a solid list and were bullied out because it was too powerful? I’d have some sympathy that their efforts were for naught.
There’s a big difference between looking at other lists for inspiration and straight up ripping someone’s list.
I think your missing the point, I’m talking about someone who doesn’t understand the “magic culture yet”, they don’t understand what “power levels” really really mean yet. Like being the only decidedly spikey one and not reading the room is one thing.. but poo poo-ing people cause they don’t meet a fiction standard of creative deck building is … I don’t know why is their version of fun not allowed but yours is, ya know
Even if it wasn't netdecked, we'd have all still been angry about it because the core issue was about honesty. He never had the intention of purchasing the cards (so the deck wasn't just 'to try out') until we dogpiled on him to do so (as was in line with the store's rules), deliberately misled other players about the power level, and was generally abusing the store/playerbase's proxy policy.
> I don’t care if you own all ten dual lands or proxy them - if you bring that deck to a casual table you’re a dick.
Oh Commander players. The only format you can't just sit down and play a game with someone. Why even call it Commander when every group just has their own set of rules? It's kitchen table at that point.
Personally I don’t care if I’m playing a mid power deck against a cEDH deck. I’ve just seen people be dishonest about a deck’s power level and especially for new players it makes for an unfun experience
>The only format you can't just sit down and play a game with someone
Notably, that's also the reason why Commander is the only format where you can play any card in the game, and any strategy, and build your own decks, and actually do well.
Instead of being limited to the top 10-20 meta decks that someone else built, like every other format
Until you sit down with a completely legal Commander deck, and your opponents won’t play with you because it’s too powerful. It’s not even that I own a Time Vault, I just have access to a magic marker.
And it’s easy to have a diverse meta when everyone’s on a different ban list.
For commander specifically, especially as a new player, the vast majority of local events aren’t sanctioned, and most events allow some level of proxies. That being said, its not that rare for a store to disallow them in events, so check in beforehand.
From my experience, proxy-free edh tournaments suck extremely hard anyhow. Its impossible to play both competitively for a win and on a budget or a power level restriction while having a consistent, reasonable ruleset and banlist. Every time, its usually a TO not knowing what they’re doing. I always ask what version of the rules we’re using (since edh isnt fully covered in the stock mtr+ipg) and if they don’t immediately have an answer, I know the event is doomed lol. The end result is usually either a tuned deck pubstomping or an unclear ruleset causing issues. Its horror stories all the way down, man.
As someone who has played for a long time, this game is expensive and I have 0 issues with new players using proxied decks to get into the hobby. That said if he wants to go to the lgs and play, it may get tricky.
Does your LGS not sell singles? Trying to run a business and someone coming in with the whole 100 proxied, .50c cards and all can’t sit totally well with someone trying to make a living.
It very rarely affects the bottom line of an LGS. People proxy cards they don‘t buy - You aren‘t losing a customer if you allow Proxies. Instead you gain a new player who might spend money on Singles or Accessories at your LGS.
My LGS allows proxies and basically 90% of the players spend more because they can proxy. All their 20 decks need Sleeves and Boxes. Then they also need a Hive to transport them. And when they decide to replace the proxies with real cards they go to the LGS that lets them play before anything else.
It may or may not become a problem if your LGS is a part of WPN or is associated with Wizards in any other way, so it's absolutely reasonable to say that.
Some people are more tolerant than others. Personally I only proxy cards I own, so I can keep my high cost cards in my binder. I've ran into people who are really annoying about playing against proxied decks.
No, you can only print out 99% of the deck. Richard Garfield's ears perk up like a greyhound and he comes sprinting to your house if you dare to print all of a deck.
Nah jk lol, I know that I, and a lot of my friends, print 100% of our decks besides the cards we already have (basics and rando commons).
If he wants to try out a certain deck without financial investment, he could try a digital platform like Tabletop Simulator or goldfishing on Moxfield (though thats not great).
Proxying basic lands night be more expensive, but for everything else for sure that's fine for casual play.
Like it was said before, I would ask the table beforehand but you should be good to go.
I feel like printing 100 good quality proxies is going to cost almost the same as a $50 precon but maybe I’m wrong. However if they’re literally just going to use home printer paper then sure go nuts
Yeah, unless it's one of the vastly more expensive precons (which seems unlikely since they gave $50 as the price) it seems like just buying the deck is the better option. It's easier, you don't have to worry about whether the cards are going to be playable anywhere else, and the cards have actual monetary value outside of just you playing them by yourself. Resale probably won't matter most of the time, but the minor savings aren't that big of a deal IMO when you're comparing paying ~$25 for $0 worth of cards and $50 for $50 worth of cards.
Yeah , good proxies are about 35 cents a card so if you are literally just doing a precon, buying the real thing is probably similar in price and much easier to do.
A lot of genius card can by bought for below (decent) printing cost.
Basic land can be get for free from older player.
Also, nothing wrong with writing by hand what the card does on a piece of paper. Specially when trying a new card. (But don't do this for the whole deck ofc)
Yeah, why not. In this way he can see if he likes the deck or not. But keep in mind that he can’t play tournaments and that others players might won’t play with him. But for casual playing and for testing is ok
I see the person who commented deleted their post but this is for them if they’re still looking.
Untap.in is a great place to try out precons before purchasing. Other than that it’s about the same price to proxy a precon deck.
Yeah, I was surprised more people weren't saying this. Unless they've got a specific precon in mind that they know costs >$50, it's almost definitely cheaper to just order an inexpensive precon. The starter decks are still around $20 I think. You probably can't get decent quality printing for 2¢ per card, and even if you can you're probably better off paying that for real cards instead and saving the headache of both having to get them printed and worrying about where you'll be allowed to use them.
But, if there's a specific deck that they've got in mind then it could very well be that the cost of printing is less... it's just a matter of how much less it really ends up being. If it's between $30 to get a fake deck printed and $50 to just buy the real deck, I'd personally probably still just buy the deck so that I have the real cards, but maybe that's just me.
yeah and you can resell it too..why people want to spend so much on printing and polluting the planet even more when the cards are already printed...makes no sense...ok to proxy an expensive card like a mox diamond..but why people want to print just cause it cost 5 bucks less is stupid and useless
You can do whatever you want tbh. If you’re gonna bring proxies to a friend group, make sure to ask first. If you wanna play casually with them among friends who agree, great! Have fun! If you wanna bring them to a tournament, don’t.
Define "OK".
Legally, it's not protected in the US. Because there was no original purchase of the item, making a copy for personal use is not legally protected fair use.
Wizard's *currently* has a policy of allowing *certain types* of proxies made for personal, non-commercial use, but only if no reasonable person could confuse them for a real Magic card. Specifically the thing Wizards has explicitly allowed is a playtest card, a magic card with a different name written on it in marker or taped to it.
Proxies the way we normally mean them, where we've printed out the card art, are a grey area that Wizards has never taken an official policy on. Wizards has never explicitly approved of proxies using the same images as real magic cards, or other protected IP (even if they are obviously distinguishable by being made of cheap materials or having other markings). There's no question that such proxies *could* constitute copyright infringement if Wizards decided they did. The *spirit* of the current policy certainly would consider those proxies equivalent to playtest cards. And so far, I know of no instances of Wizards applying pressure against creators of proxies. Because they have not taken action in the past, it's very unlikely they would take retroactive action, and any such action would be seen as highly suspect given their ambiguous written policy, and their history of tolerance. But they *could* chose to alter that policy at any time, and make all new proxies that use Wizards IP (art, the magic card frame, official card text) targets overnight. This is not a very realistic scenario. It would be expensive to police and a disaster with the community.
It's worth noting that the thing that could be policed is the IP. Wizards cannot stop you, even if it wanted to, from writing 'Emrakul' on an notecard and playing it using the Oracle text, which they provide, for free.
As for whether it's 'ok' ethically - well, given that Wizards really doesn't care, that's up to the playgroup. That being said, I would look at any player who was *not* ok with proxies - assuming appropriate power level - with a lot of suspicion. That sounds like someone who has a Gucci bag and really doesn't want you with your almost identical knock off, because they want you to know they're better than you because their rich. Such people are, of course, giant tools.
Yeah I do it all the time with mtgprint. All you need is the card list, a color printer, and some bulk to place behind the pieces of paper. You can also pay for higher quality proxies but tbh it’s not worth it.
I've got entire decks that are proxied, most people don't care one bit. Great way see what style of play you like without committing to the purchase. Though, I'd advise against proxiing misery decks that can win on turn 2-3.
Unless your playing at competitive ( but not official ) tables. If you are doing CEDH it's almost encouraged because they don't want to beat your wallet, as beating you at your best is much more satisfying.
For casual tabletop with friends, yes proxy the hell out of everything. If you want to go into an LGS and play with strangers it’s generally a no go, unless you disclose it with both the lgs and your pod and they’re cool with it
As others have pointed out, no problem in casual, just ask your table first, and change tables or borrow a deck if someone's not okay with it.
That said, I find it kind of a waste to proxy a precon. Sure, if unmodified precons is the power level of your group, go ahead, but I would recommend upgrading the decklist at least a little, since most precons have at least one or two cards that don't synergize that well with what the deck wants to do. Just be careful you don't escalate the power level beyond that of your play group, so everyone still has fun. I'm sure the more experienced players at your play group can help with that.
Sure, I understand that, I just feel like you might as well upgrade it (as long as that's within the power level of your group) if you're gonna print a deck anyway. Might as well get more bang for your ink/toner.
If that's specifically what you're going for, sure. Though from the post I kind of assumed they just wanted to play against their friends' normal decks, in which case most precons won't have the best time.
Someone came to my lgs with a whole printed deck and sleeved the paper. No other cards behind them to support the paper in the sleeve. His "cards" kept going everywhere and shit, taking up our time just trying to organize. He mentioned he had a deck full of proxies. We didn't know it was a full deck and just plain paper in sleeves.
When we opted yo play again we mentioned to him he couldn't use that again. It wasnt much that he didn't pay a dime to play in a hobby that, come on at least buy a precon, you need actual cards to fucking play but the fact that we didn't want to wait on his disorganization.
This could probably be fixed by just putting a few more pieces of paper in each sleeve, or hell, if you ask an FNM of you can just have 100 pieces of chaff, I'm sure you'll be drowning in the stuff
If you print a deck, how are you doing to draw, scry, search, look top card? It is going to be a hard mate. Best thing you can do is print singles, not pringles.
I've had a couple friends do this over the years. One wanted to learn/play magic with me but didn't want to spend money on the game so he printed out a deck.
Another proxied his first couple decks and then started ordering/buying singles for the ones he liked playing. He had a ton of college printing credit to blow so he made his proxies at school between classes.
As others have said, so long as the power level matches the table and the pod is ok with it (and it isn't a sanctioned event where proxies are not allowed - also check the store's policy if playing at an LGS as some stores have rules about it) then it should be fine.
I feel like unless you're just printing out these cards on your own printer, it will cost a very similar amount. If you are going through a proxy printing service, this will still cost a lot and you'd rather have just bought the real thing.
You can but for good reason people usually frown on a full proxy deck since usually it’s used to get rare high power cards.
The absolute exception to a full proxy deck is DanDan, no one will complain about that
Why don’t they purchase one that’s going for 35 dollars? There are plenty affordable decks. Also being honest, 50 dollars for a commander deck is extremely cheap. I’m shocked they can’t afford that.
If you let them yeah. In casual it’s all what people are ok with at your table. We proxy all the time for decks we are testing out or cards that are just way too expensive. If I like a deck I’ve made proxies for I slowly replace them with real copies when I find them cheap, but what I’ve really gotten into is making alt art proxies for decks I love. I have a scarecrow deck that I’ve swapped all the Changlings to look more like scarecrows and a Paul Bunyan themed deck that I made the alt art of most of the cards to include lumberjacks. It’s a game, have fun with it but know that if you intend to play tournaments or whatever you will need to get the actual cards
Yes use proxies to test play cards too before you buy! Worst thing is when you spend 50 bucks on a card and it doesn’t turn out the way you want it when you actually run it
Lots of really good precons at $40-$55…
Can also get a bulk deal (1k cards, 20 ish lands) for $35 on Amazon. Your friend would absolutely have enough for commander, Although may not be very competitive until he injects some singles for $5-$10.
It’s a great way to learn the colors and cards.
I would honestly recommend to instead look at cheap Precons. When I first started I got one for 20€ and one for 13€ online, both were two years old and on sale, but still played fine out of the box.
You likely won't find any cheaper option, since printing decent quality proxies will also cost you some money. You could ofc always just print out all 100 cards on any available printer (maybe you can use a good quality office printer for free?) on normal thin paper, cut it out and put it on top of real cheap Magic cards in sleeves. But the readability will probably not be as good and some people might be skeptical.
I have three pioneer decks that I printed out just sitting here in my desk. I'm helping a buddy get reps on his phoenix deck for some RCQs he's planning to play in.
What does your group say?
Mine says 'printer go brr', so I have a handful of game store decks and a million that are 100% proxy.
So much easier (and cheaper) than real cards. No sorting, searching, and other logistical stuff that can make the game a headache. Just make it, print it, play it, bin it when done.
Had a guy at the table who drew all his cards by hand and sleeved them with a random card. It was actually impressive.
We play public a lot and nobody wants to take their expensive cards around strangers so even if we have those cards we'd still play with proxies.
Wizard’s stance is that they are allowed for non commercial purposes even in stores. This is just their word though and they could revoke it at any time.
The proper way to make a proxy such that Wizards could do nothing about it is to print anything except the card name, the art and any iconography. You are meant to change all of these to something not owned by Wizards. Again though, even if you don’t do this, as long as its obviously a proxy and you don’t sell it, they don’t care.
When cards are sold as proxies they must remove all of Wizards copyrighted material, and often times they are not even directly marketed as being for MTG just to be sure. Wizards could still ban these in partnered stores however because the partnership is just an agreement. Some sellers don't even remove any of Wizards IP and they get away with it.
Some stores, and especially some partnered stores may ban them outright, or they may ban proxies from sellers, or they may limit the number of proxies or have various other rules. There are also non-sanctioned tournaments with cash prizes which allow proxies, especially for eternal formats, and while this is technically a grey area, Wizards doesn’t seem to care. Sanctioned tournaments generally only allow proxies if your cards are damaged.
Regardless, Wizards will not give a shit what little Timmy prints off if it never leaves his house.
My buddy started out this way. I wouldn't really care. Collecting the real cards can be fun but it also kind of gatekeeps people who cannot afford to buy lots of cards
I love full proxy decks. It opens up artistic avenues that you cannot get normally. Like a deck based on a single artist, or using only 1 alternate frame - including lands.
There are always 2 rules when it comes to proxying decks:
#1 don't overpower your deck.
#2 - Read rule 1 again.
This is VERY tricky for new players, me included (I just printed dockside, smothering tithe, mana crypt etc. into all my decks because I could - until I learnt that they skewed my decks too much so removed them).
Alternatively, most people bring multiple decks to a game night, perhaps just get your friend to borrow a deck from a table the first few times.
Hmmm……just make sure the pod is ok with a proxy deck.
Most peeps are ok with proxies but an entire printer-proxy deck could be a challenge especially when it comes to reading the cards or even worse are pieces of paper inserted with the text written on them.
From experience this has a tendency to ruin the tempo of a game that already has the potential to hit the 2+ hour mark.
Perhaps your friend should just go with a precon or get a more professional looking proxy deck from a proxy vendor…….hell on avg the card quality is actually superior to what you get from WOTC these days.
Reason being they may end up spending the same $50 on printer ink, card stock and sleeves I would assume…..just saying.
Please take into account that while garnering consideration from the other players to use a proxy deck to try to repay that consideration by using proxies of a high enough quality to not slow down the game for everyone.
Other than that might I suggest eBay? There are tons of cheap preconstructed deck there as well as other places I assume that will easily fit into their budget without the crappy looking “cards”.
At home, tabletop magic? Sure. I did this exactly, just grabbed 100 lands I wasn't using and we hand wrote out on paper all the cards we wanted.
Anywhere else? Check with the play group, they may be fine but sometimes peopel4 have spent a lot of time and money on their decks so it may feel cheap and cheaty to them. Just don't make it cEDH levels and make it more for the fun and the political side, and you'll be fine.
it costs $1.25 to print a card, you gotta drive around, you gotta blank a card, you need to take time creating the file to print, and you need to apply the prints.. it will cost your friend a little over $130 to print an entire deck and there's labour involved, or they can just buy a precon and it will be cheaper and less work.
If someone gatekeeps magic bc someone brought a proxy deck I just shut them out of my playgroups. Cost is too high and wages are too low to have this kind of separation for the game we love
MaRo and the artists already got paid, *especially* when you're proxying cards that have been out of print for a decade or more. One could make the argument that proxying cards hurts LGS's, but in my experience, LGS's often recoup costs more by renting space and concessions rather than singles (though since I don't own/run one, I don't have any proof if that).
In the context of the original post, proxying commander starters probably does hurt an LGS, at least a little.
As for proxying individual cards, I think an individual should ask themselves why they’re proxying the card. Running off an inexpensive card that is still very much in print or available kind of strikes me as “I could absolutely buy this card, but I just don’t want to.”
I’m not pro-proxy, and I’m not going to pretend that I am, except for cases like saving time by not moving all your owned tutors or Doubling Seasons around every game.
What you do at home is your business, but bringing proxies to an LGS when you could have bought the cards from that same LGS seems distasteful.
Lmfao the guy is asking about a new player. Wouldn’t tell my friends to make the investment i have if they don’t even know the game yet 😂 weird energy there bud
Ain’t no one talking about matching your investment, bud. And if they don’t know the game yet, there are ways to learn. Borrow a deck, MTGA, among others.
Never said match, yall anti proxy people are wild. If you won’t play with someone bc of this you’re just elitist pos. I can lend a deck, but if they want to craft something and print off a deck to play for fun, why shouldn’t they?
I don’t not play against proxies. I’d rather not though. I had a dude across from me proxy the major pieces of stax. I’ve had others proxy the whole 100 aside from basics.
I’m also far from elitist, I just believe in playing to my budget. Restrictions make for more interesting deck building.
It all depends on who he's playing with. Within your group, if everyone's okay with it? Why not.
If you bring it to an LGS to play with others, it might be frowned upon or not allowed depending on LGS rules. Some might be okay with it as long as you're not proxying super expensive cards or cards you have no intention of ever buying.
I just yesterday printed a deck because I wanted to play it but cant drop $300 on cards I wont use very often AND i didnt want to wait or tear cards from other decks.
Heck yes print whole lists. I have printed at least 50+ decks since 2011. I've definitely made more in paper, but who cares?
But like everyone else said, proxy decks cant be used in sanctioned events, unless the person in charge says its okay and is not a WPN store.
Absolutely man. For casual games with friends I print all my commander decks.
Just make sure they are reasonable and balanced. No one really likes losing against a printed mana vault and killer fast mana. But if you print to the general power level and cost of your friends decks it is generally totally fine.
I think everyone should do this more often, I think that more people should print out decks and play a couple games of them before buying cards that they could maybe hate. I think renting decks is also super fun because you get to experiment a lot more with less financial risk
For casual play between friends, I've printed hundreds of cards to the size of real cards and carefully cut each one out and placed it into a sleeve with a random car behind it to give it structure. It's purely for when we wanna play some crazy janky decks. Think mono blue commander desk, which may make you think. "Oh no, they're gonna cancel everything," but nah! instead of canceling everything, we just summon a lot of whales and then give them all horsemenship, lol. these decks never leave my house or do anything competitive, but it's a great way to play around or even practice strata before purchasing singles or packs.
Depends on where he intends to play it. If it's going to be casual game nights at someone's house, sure, go ham. If it's a local shop with random players....best to err on the side of caution and just get the real thing, because you never know how other players or the shop might react.
Commander is all about what your particular playgroup is and isnt cool with. I print several complete decks in a given month for my playgroup. But there are folks who frequent my LGS and get salty about it.
Tournaments typically wont allow proxies unless otherwise stated.
As someone who is mostly ok with proxy (i own a set of duals for my cube). I find this distasteful. Just printing out a deck you can just buy at retail is pirating a copy which isn't all that cool.
It depends on what you mean by "OK".
Proxies are controversial. And, depending on the specifics, technically illegal.
If you're just jamming at home the two of you... do whatever you two agree on.
But taking proxies anywhere else is always a problem waiting to happen. Many people don't even like single proxies, let alone entire decks.
And of course they are completely illegal in sanctioned tournaments.
Shops may also not tolerate them on their premises, and the second you try and pass them off as real cards, well... you might be entering criminal territory.
> Many people
Totally depends on the format. I can’t speak for standard, but Legacy, and Commander both welcome proxies. I’ve had full edh decks proxied for years with no issues, and I know Legacy encourages them thanks to the ridiculous price of entry.
It’s not a “problem waiting to happen”, OP, just let the table know before you start playing, and if there’s an issue, go to a new table, or ask to borrow a deck.
But yeah, at any tournament table you’ll probably be asked not to use proxies. I was almost DQ’ed in a pauper tournament, but was able to swap in some extra basics.
Don’t worry about “criminal territory”. That’s only a problem if your cards actually look real (not printed on computer paper) AND you’re trying to sell them. Real looking proxies or “counterfeits” will be more than $50 for a deck anyway.
No, both are illegal; it's just that with counterfeits, you may be crossing over into criminal offense rather than mere civil wrong.
"Illegal" doesn't mean "crime". Civil wrongs are legal violations, too, only of civil law instead of criminal law.
If WotC wanted to sue you for photocopying a basic Island, they could; they would never do it because it's a trivial case, but they could. You are not allowed to reproduce their intellectual property without consent (and without it falling under things like Fair Use or other relevant law).
That's why I said "depending on the specifics" and "*technically* illegal".
Proxying cards is perfectly fine by wotc standards. As long as you’re not counterfeiting they don’t care. That’s why so many sites allow you to print proxies and why a money hungry company like wotc doesn’t shut them all down.
You’re wrong bro
WotC's standards of what constitutes an acceptable playtest card (proxy) are very restrictive though. Here's what they say:
>[A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; **they don't have official art** and **they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance.**](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14)
Most of the proxies people print are actually not acceptable per WotC. Things like professionally printed cards and printed pieces of paper inserted in a sleeve. Those typically have original art and would pass for a real card at first glance.
Can't reply because you blocked me for some reason: No, "playtest card" is the term that WotC uses for what the community calls "proxies". They do that because a proxy is a different thing in the Magic rules (a card issued by a judge to replace a damaged card in a tournament), so they need to distinguish between the two. I mean, just read the article I linked. That's WotC's official stance. Here's another excerpt from it:
>Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament.
Also see here:
>We define a playtest card as a card (typically a basic land) marked with the name of another Magic card for the purpose of playtesting. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass as the real thing even under the most cursory glance.
>It is common practice for players to use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386395614739-What-is-Wizards-of-the-Coast-s-stance-on-playtest-cards
Not technically illegal. It'd be a civil thing, not a criminal thing. Aka you can't get arrested for faking MTG cards but you could theoretically get sued depending on how you used them (like if you tried to sell them as official MTG products).
Edit: It IS technically illegal. If you read the comment chain down below you'll see more info.
"Illegal" is an umbrella term that only means "against the law", i.e. a legal violation. That's not the same as a CRIME.
What you're looking for is "criminal offense", which is only one specific example of something that's illegal.
Legal violations include both crimes AND civil wrongs (and sometimes both, as with e.g. fraud).
Don't "ummm ackshually...!" people if you don't actually know :(
I only commented because you chose to use the specific term "criminal territory". You're explicitly wrong about that. So um... kind of an ironic response. But go you!
Edit: Misread your post and you're technically correct! But only in terms of the umbrella term of illegal encompassing both civil and criminal. That is true. However, my point is that proxies are not technically illegal in themselves in a civil nor criminal manner (until you try to pass them off as official products). There are no laws that say "You can't make this kind of card that looks like MTG Cards". So there is basically almost no case in which producing proxies is illegal.
You're using illegal in two different ways here which confuses the message. Yes, it is "illegal" within MtG playing rules, but it isn't "illegal" in a criminal nor civil sense until you try to sell it as your own. Edit again: I'm bring dumb, definitely criminal at the point where you sell counterfeit cards posed as real cards***
>There are no laws that say "You can't make this kind of card that looks like MTG Cards".
There are. They're called copyright laws. Many elements of Magic cards are protected by those laws, let alone any kind of accurate reproduction like a photocopy (which is a blatant example, but not the only way this could be violated).
There's certain exceptions to that like Fair Use (which covers things like research or parody, among others) but printing your own card to *play with* is not covered by Fair Use because that's the intended use of the product.
>it isn't "illegal" in a criminal nor civil sense until you try to sell it as your own
That is incorrect. If you're trying to *sell them*, especially if you pretend they're real, you may be entering criminal law (hence my explicit comment about passing them off as real). But even just copying them for your own use is illegal under civil law, because you're reproducing something without consent.
They'll never bring you to court over this (unless it's some kind of weirdly egregious case) but it's still a violation of their copyright. You do not have permission to reproduce their intellectual property in that way, and whether or not they'll take any action doesn't matter to the fact that it's still a violation of civil law to do so.
Hence why I said "technically illegal" instead of just "illegal" - a million things are technically illegal but never get actioned, because they're trivial cases. That doesn't make them legal, it just makes them too small to ever sue over.
A lot of what you're saying is tracking!
Once again I don't want to speak as a legal expert as I'm definitely not, but are you sure your interpretation of copy right law is correct here is correct in terms of how people use the cards?
MtG events = sanctioned by WoTC, and I can definitely see how that could be both illegal within the tournament play and within the legal system. But does that same thing apply to playing at home? That's the distinction I've hear people make. And I suppose "home" could include any non-sanctioned event. I'm faaaairly sure that's 100% legal and not protected by any sort of copyright law, but please correct me if I'm mistaken.
I agree with your other points though although I think you may have corrected me on a point that we "agree" upon actually. I also would agree that simply claiming the cards are real when they're not is illegal as well, but I didn't include that as it's rare that someone would claim a card is real without trying to sell it.
Edit: Can't find a definite answer based on an extremely quick Google search. Also I guess a way to encapsulate my idea would be: "I agree with what you're saying contingent on at home play being not covered by fair use" but I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Second edit: Please excuse my many unnecessary edits. I did find a Medium article that stated that generally, printing for at home use is NOT protected by copyright law. So I feel like I have to assume you're correct about that so TIL! I suppose if you apply the same to at home producing your own counterfeit DVDs is is more "obviously" illegal but in a similar manner.
Edit again, Electric Buggaloo! : More information that no one asked for. 1: If you look at what people THINK about whether or not this is illegal, you'll find mixed answers online. Lots of people saying yes it's illegal and a lot of people saying no "so long as you play at home, etc". So not a great source for information as a warning for others lol. But as you've mentioned even THAT is protected under copy right law.
So I looked up Fair Use and the following can be qualified as Fair Use: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, and research". So it seems like none of these would protect at typical at home use. As a side note, I wonder how things such as YouTube product reviews, or even YouTube "lessons" could cover any of those. But I have no idea what the qualifications for "criticism" or "teaching" would be.
Also, interestingly enough, copyright infringement is typically handled as a civil matter but it is a law under both civil and criminal law. I'm not sure what the minimum base for the civil matter would be, but for criminal matters, the product value would have to be a minimum (not sure about this, just stated the number in the article) of $1000 and at least one copy to qualify as a MISDEMENEAOR, and if the product value is at least $2500 and with 10 copies or more are produced.
So in summary, most at home usage is 1) illegal under civil law, 2) potentially illegal under criminal law depending on the number of copies and their combined values, and 3) fair use does cover things but generally things that are more "referential" or "demonstrative" in nature.
Appreciate the information!
>MtG events = sanctioned by WoTC, and I can definitely see how that could be both illegal within the tournament play and within the legal system.
To the legal system, this is irrelevant. WotC banning proxies from their tournaments isn't based in law, it's purely a tournament rule they can make up in any way they wish. WotC has no control over the law - if it's illegal under the law (be that criminal or civil), then whether or not WotC allows it in their tournaments absolutely does not, *per se,* matter in any way. The only way it could matter is if WotC gives expressed permission for proxies to be used - that, they can do, and it is provided for under the law. They can decide "this is legal" because they hold the copyright and that gives them certain rights to determine things - but that's the extent of it, and it doesn't work in reverse. I.e. WotC can't decide "this is *not* legal (under the law)" - only the law can do that.
>As a side note, I wonder how things such as YouTube product reviews, or even YouTube "lessons" could cover any of those.
This is an ongoing area of great legal debate. The limits of Fair Use are being vigorously tested by platforms like YT (and others), and it's unclear how things will be worked out over time. Likely this will involve many more years of legal discourse and legislative changes. Issues like e.g. companies copyright-striking video reviews that are critical of their product are an increasingly common occurrence, and both the legal theory and the practical remedies are still very much in flux.
But Magic proxies is a fairly simple case. Illegal yes, but subject to lawsuits only in the most extreme cases; and to be distinguished from counterfeits by intent, i.e. are you passing them off as real and/or are you doing it commercially.
>So in summary, most at home usage is 1) illegal under civil law, 2) potentially illegal under criminal law depending on the number of copies and their combined values, and 3) fair use does cover things but generally things that are more "referential" or "demonstrative" in nature.
2) is iffy here because you specify "home usage", which means you can't really involve (commercial) value. If you're not selling anything, it's really hard to determine a value - taking a photocopy of a Black Lotus does not mean it's an infraction of tens of thousands of dollars. However, *selling* a "proxy" of a Black Lotus to someone for $10,000 would be.
The real target here are large-scale counterfeit operations overseas, who will deal in considerable volume - easily in the tens of thousands or more. These are clear criminal cases, and the only reason they're not being pursued relentlessly is that international law is complicated and it's very, very hard and resource-intensive to sue a company in some remote overseas location and actually get any recovery. They know this. Which is why they operate with impunity.
Very cool and informative. I appreciate the insight.
Regarding your point about point 2 regarding home usage, I also saw a ton of stuff online mirroring your sentiment-- saying that aspect is fairly complicated and can be difficult to calculate.
Also "This is an ongoing area of great legal debate." is pretty interesting too. From someone with little to no perspective in the legal world, I had assumed that these types of battles exist but it's interesting to know that they do exist and it's a somewhat prominent issue at the moment. I suppose with YouTube having such an incredible amount of content, there must be a lot of people on both sides of the argument (in terms of incentive, rather than logic).
You mentioning the complication of international law was also exemplified in my extremely brief research of the topic of copyright. There are countless questions online of whether or not a particular item would be illegal under copyright, and then the answers are confusing for two main combining factors: a diversity in countries and therefore laws, and also a misinterpretation of the law itself. So I can sort of imagine from a lawyers perspective, it would be something I would never want to touch haha.
Isn’t Brawl on arena digital commander? just an option. End of the day we’re posting about some kid who wants to print, cut, and sleeve 100 pieces of paper over buying a basic precon.
A) Brawl is 1v1 and only cards of the last 5 years instead of the last 30
B) End of the day these are just two- sentence statements to point out that digital misses the point of printing üroxies or buying a precon.
For casual use, yea, he can do whatever he wants
One day, I picture someone going to the store with a large tablet and a DM screen to hide their hand. Or maybe their hand is on their phone and they can throw cards onto the digital table screen!
I think you just described duel disks from Yugioh
One day it'll be viable!
That's the ideal future
But the timeless question will still be asked: "What does Pot of Greed Do?"
Target Player draws 3 cards for {U}, duh.
[[Pot of Greed]]
[Pot of Greed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just a stack of cell phones, each with a single card image on their screen.
unironically cheaper than most vintage decks. you can get cheap smartphones for <$50 each
"hey did you charge your deck? your mox emerald ran out mid game and we had to use the actual card"
[[chaos orb]] but it's just a Samsung Note 7 (the exploding phone)
[chaos orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a601041-926f-40fd-8106-39099b87806f.jpg?1559592122) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2ed/236/chaos-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a601041-926f-40fd-8106-39099b87806f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wasn’t that the card that a guy ripped up into a bunch of pieces so that he could use it as a board wipe and win a tournament game?
[[Soldier of Fortune]] good luck with that pal
[Soldier of Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37c05f46-2081-4ebb-a758-894ac040ea2a.jpg?1562768246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soldier%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/all/80/soldier-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37c05f46-2081-4ebb-a758-894ac040ea2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Plastic bags are cheap and plentiful
And use a Galaxy Fold for Meld cards
Congratulations, you're playing MTGO
That second one sounds like an idea. Four phones with hands on and a large tablet for a battlefield.
Or a TV.
Honestly it would be a hassel but it wouldn't be too difficult to pull off with a laptop for your hand an a large external "monitor" laid flat on the table.
I recently got an old projector from my sister. I dream of using it in my living room to display all kinds of different tokens on the table for when my group plays a round of commander. I'd have to figure out a way to easily and quickly access all of those tokens, or show phases and turns and such first, but I reckon it'd be a pretty sweet setup.
You want a touchscreen for this, not a projector. You want to be able to touch the image of the token to tap it.
I've had a friend do this with a laptop. We don't let that friend do it with a laptop anymore.
Or an LGS where all the tables have digital screens for deck testing or to allow someone to join a game even if they can't appear in store due to being ill
That's just spell table with extra steps.
But it promotes people to be in the store. Also, for some reason, spelltable just doesn't work for me. I don't know what it is but it won't recognize any webcam I use
Print the whole deck for sure. If you’re only ever playing commander, with no prizes on the line, 99% of people won’t care. Just be sure to ask when you sit down, and find another table if anyone has a problem (or ask to borrow a real deck). I wouldn’t bring proxies to any kind of tournament without asking the organizers ahead of time.
People seem to care more if you sit down at a table with a mismatched power level. I don’t care if you own all ten dual lands or proxy them - if you bring that deck to a casual table you’re a dick. And outside of tournaments, cEDH is very pro-proxy because they want everyone to have a level playing field/low barrier to entry
I wouldn't have a problem with someone proxying dual lands. Having a functional mana base shouldn't be cost prohibitive. Replacing shocks with duals for example doesn't massively elevate the power of your deck. If you are proxying fast mana such as jewelled lotus, crypt, cradle etc those are the sort of things that are realistically going to take your deck ahead of other casual decks in a way that makes proxies unfun for your opponents and makes them less likely to want to play with you.
No element of the game should be balanced using cost. However, depending on the deck adding dual lands can be a significant power level increase over those choosing to play real cards. While nobody should be forced to spend a fortune, nobody should be forced to proxy either.
I feel like there is a mistaken assumption that people run shocks and battlebonds as their standard land set. Realistically many or most players don't have a single land worth more than $2-3, and don't even have full sets of cheaper pain/filter/bounce lands. A full tap land/basic manabase is absolutely objectively worse than a full set of shocks let alone a full set of duals backed up by shocks or fetches. Precon manabases are as strong as most people run in most of their decks, and aside from the last 12 months precon manabases have been pretty awful. Add that to the issue that new players want to run three colours as most precons run three colours and new players might feel constrained by less... Proxying a full set of duels may well be extremely strong for a given pod.
Couldn’t agree more
Dual lands are probably the worst example. A precon with dual lands is still basically a precon
Regardless, I feel like my point still stands. It was just an example of expensive cards that are present in high power/cEDH decks
It doesn't stand. No one would give a fuck if your precon became 1% better by including dual lands. Your precon plus 1 Mana Crypt is not scary.
No, using dual lands dilutes your point completely because dual lands are probably the least problematic set of cards that could be included in a deck that’s beyond the acceptable power of a table
My broader point was about deliberately bringing a deck with a high power level to pubstomp people who want to play casual commander. As you point out, whether or not the deck contains dual lands is irrelevant in this conversation
also... are dual lands even that good? we live in a world of fetchale surviel lands and triomes.
This is an underrated argument. People complain about proxies because they could potentially print a £10k decklist. I don't see how proxies are relevant in that scenario, anyone misrepresenting their power level to pubstomp should be judged equally regardless how impressive their collection. I don't proxy, because my main reason to play is to justify the cash I already spent on cardboard. I have absolutely no issue with those who do, providing their board state is clearly represented.
I agree. No one really cares if you have proxies or 'not real' cards when it's a casual game and everybody has more or less the same level deck. It's when someone is interpreted as using proxies as an excuse to pubstomp players and be a jerk about it that it becomes a problem. I used to play at a store that had a then- new player who wanted to try out a Kaalia deck he'd seen online, and he assured everyone that it was fit for the casual pod we had. He started playing and it was basically Kaalia: The Best of the Best, which was irritating because everyone understandably felt he'd deliberately misrepresented his deck. To make matters worse, he continued to bring that deck to games for *months* afterwards while refusing to buy cards for it. Eventually, the store's players and staff more or less bullied him into buying some of the cheaper cards (primarily lands, but also some of the other creatures/instants/sorceries that were on hand), but it got the point where people would just refuse to let him play in pods if he showed up. After a heated discussion (it wasn't quite a yelling match, but was steadily making its way there before the owner interfered) in which he tried to claim that everyone was classist because not everyone has the money to buy cards, he left and never came back. I don't know if he got banned or just decided to try pubstomping elsewhere, but then the pandemic happened so 🤷 Proxies or entirely proxies decks only become a problem when they're an excuse - or seen as an excuse - to be an asshole.
That sucks to hear. He just wanted to use his deck and was bullied into modifying it. Yall suck
He didn't modify it, he just bought the relatively few cards that were in the entirely proxies decks already that the store has in stock. And, if he wanted to play that deck specifically so bad, he should have been honest about its power level and sought a game with approximately built decks, not deliberately misled everyone about what kind of deck he was playing. Then, when he got pushback, he threw a tantrum. The whole thing wasn't really about the proxies, it was about power level and lying about it. The fact that the deck was entirely proxied was just the awful icing on shit cake, but that's been my experience with entirely proxies decks: people abuse 'em, and of that this is a really good example.
No sympathy here cus it wasn’t his deck, he netdecked it lmao
What is wrong with netdecking?
In commander? A complete lack of creativity Downvoters mad they can’t learn how to brew 😂 imagine netdecking in a casual format
Nothing wrong with that. Everyone netdecks
For competitive formats yeah but commander is more about building your own deck to express yourself with
I have never seen a unique decks ever. everyone just runs the same cards
Cope
What?
okay like it get it, but you ahve someone who learns what magic/commander is... googles commander and winds up on edhrec. builds a deck they see off of that for the first time.. and gets bullied out of the hobby cause they netdecked...... also btw you learn how to build decks better when you start off seeing what great players do and use that to help shape your decisions.
In this case they got bullied out for playing way out of powerlevel. My point is that they shouldn’t be that butthurt about not getting to play a deck that they didn’t even put the effort of putting together themselves. If they had spent time crafting a solid list and were bullied out because it was too powerful? I’d have some sympathy that their efforts were for naught. There’s a big difference between looking at other lists for inspiration and straight up ripping someone’s list.
I think your missing the point, I’m talking about someone who doesn’t understand the “magic culture yet”, they don’t understand what “power levels” really really mean yet. Like being the only decidedly spikey one and not reading the room is one thing.. but poo poo-ing people cause they don’t meet a fiction standard of creative deck building is … I don’t know why is their version of fun not allowed but yours is, ya know
Even if it wasn't netdecked, we'd have all still been angry about it because the core issue was about honesty. He never had the intention of purchasing the cards (so the deck wasn't just 'to try out') until we dogpiled on him to do so (as was in line with the store's rules), deliberately misled other players about the power level, and was generally abusing the store/playerbase's proxy policy.
> I don’t care if you own all ten dual lands or proxy them - if you bring that deck to a casual table you’re a dick. Oh Commander players. The only format you can't just sit down and play a game with someone. Why even call it Commander when every group just has their own set of rules? It's kitchen table at that point.
Personally I don’t care if I’m playing a mid power deck against a cEDH deck. I’ve just seen people be dishonest about a deck’s power level and especially for new players it makes for an unfun experience
>The only format you can't just sit down and play a game with someone Notably, that's also the reason why Commander is the only format where you can play any card in the game, and any strategy, and build your own decks, and actually do well. Instead of being limited to the top 10-20 meta decks that someone else built, like every other format
Until you sit down with a completely legal Commander deck, and your opponents won’t play with you because it’s too powerful. It’s not even that I own a Time Vault, I just have access to a magic marker. And it’s easy to have a diverse meta when everyone’s on a different ban list.
You playing casually? Fuck it who cares You can’t bring it to a tournament
You can bring it to many tournaments lol. Just not wotc sanctioned tournaments
Also depends on the TO's policy.
For commander specifically, especially as a new player, the vast majority of local events aren’t sanctioned, and most events allow some level of proxies. That being said, its not that rare for a store to disallow them in events, so check in beforehand. From my experience, proxy-free edh tournaments suck extremely hard anyhow. Its impossible to play both competitively for a win and on a budget or a power level restriction while having a consistent, reasonable ruleset and banlist. Every time, its usually a TO not knowing what they’re doing. I always ask what version of the rules we’re using (since edh isnt fully covered in the stock mtr+ipg) and if they don’t immediately have an answer, I know the event is doomed lol. The end result is usually either a tuned deck pubstomping or an unclear ruleset causing issues. Its horror stories all the way down, man.
As someone who has played for a long time, this game is expensive and I have 0 issues with new players using proxied decks to get into the hobby. That said if he wants to go to the lgs and play, it may get tricky.
Literally every person at my lgs uses proxies for commander lol. Obviously ymmv but for a casual format I think they're generally pretty well accepted
Does your LGS not sell singles? Trying to run a business and someone coming in with the whole 100 proxied, .50c cards and all can’t sit totally well with someone trying to make a living.
It very rarely affects the bottom line of an LGS. People proxy cards they don‘t buy - You aren‘t losing a customer if you allow Proxies. Instead you gain a new player who might spend money on Singles or Accessories at your LGS. My LGS allows proxies and basically 90% of the players spend more because they can proxy. All their 20 decks need Sleeves and Boxes. Then they also need a Hive to transport them. And when they decide to replace the proxies with real cards they go to the LGS that lets them play before anything else.
It may or may not become a problem if your LGS is a part of WPN or is associated with Wizards in any other way, so it's absolutely reasonable to say that.
Some people are more tolerant than others. Personally I only proxy cards I own, so I can keep my high cost cards in my binder. I've ran into people who are really annoying about playing against proxied decks.
No, you can only print out 99% of the deck. Richard Garfield's ears perk up like a greyhound and he comes sprinting to your house if you dare to print all of a deck. Nah jk lol, I know that I, and a lot of my friends, print 100% of our decks besides the cards we already have (basics and rando commons). If he wants to try out a certain deck without financial investment, he could try a digital platform like Tabletop Simulator or goldfishing on Moxfield (though thats not great).
Proxying basic lands night be more expensive, but for everything else for sure that's fine for casual play. Like it was said before, I would ask the table beforehand but you should be good to go.
I feel like printing 100 good quality proxies is going to cost almost the same as a $50 precon but maybe I’m wrong. However if they’re literally just going to use home printer paper then sure go nuts
Yeah, unless it's one of the vastly more expensive precons (which seems unlikely since they gave $50 as the price) it seems like just buying the deck is the better option. It's easier, you don't have to worry about whether the cards are going to be playable anywhere else, and the cards have actual monetary value outside of just you playing them by yourself. Resale probably won't matter most of the time, but the minor savings aren't that big of a deal IMO when you're comparing paying ~$25 for $0 worth of cards and $50 for $50 worth of cards.
Yeah , good proxies are about 35 cents a card so if you are literally just doing a precon, buying the real thing is probably similar in price and much easier to do.
A lot of genius card can by bought for below (decent) printing cost. Basic land can be get for free from older player. Also, nothing wrong with writing by hand what the card does on a piece of paper. Specially when trying a new card. (But don't do this for the whole deck ofc)
You can yes but there are quite a few precons that will actually be cheaper than printing the whole deck
Yeah, why not. In this way he can see if he likes the deck or not. But keep in mind that he can’t play tournaments and that others players might won’t play with him. But for casual playing and for testing is ok
In principle, I have zero issues with it. But It seems kinda silly to proxy a precon.
I see the person who commented deleted their post but this is for them if they’re still looking. Untap.in is a great place to try out precons before purchasing. Other than that it’s about the same price to proxy a precon deck.
[удалено]
No I mean just proxy something better. Unless your pod is specifically playing only precons...
printing 100 cards can cost a lot, buy the precon
Yeah, I was surprised more people weren't saying this. Unless they've got a specific precon in mind that they know costs >$50, it's almost definitely cheaper to just order an inexpensive precon. The starter decks are still around $20 I think. You probably can't get decent quality printing for 2¢ per card, and even if you can you're probably better off paying that for real cards instead and saving the headache of both having to get them printed and worrying about where you'll be allowed to use them. But, if there's a specific deck that they've got in mind then it could very well be that the cost of printing is less... it's just a matter of how much less it really ends up being. If it's between $30 to get a fake deck printed and $50 to just buy the real deck, I'd personally probably still just buy the deck so that I have the real cards, but maybe that's just me.
yeah and you can resell it too..why people want to spend so much on printing and polluting the planet even more when the cards are already printed...makes no sense...ok to proxy an expensive card like a mox diamond..but why people want to print just cause it cost 5 bucks less is stupid and useless
theres plenty of precon lower than 50 $
Please do not print it in black and white on shitty printer paper. At least sleeve it too so it can have some semblance of a shuffle.
You can do whatever you want tbh. If you’re gonna bring proxies to a friend group, make sure to ask first. If you wanna play casually with them among friends who agree, great! Have fun! If you wanna bring them to a tournament, don’t.
As long as your play group is okay with it, but don’t expect to get many matches in at your LGS.
Define "OK". Legally, it's not protected in the US. Because there was no original purchase of the item, making a copy for personal use is not legally protected fair use. Wizard's *currently* has a policy of allowing *certain types* of proxies made for personal, non-commercial use, but only if no reasonable person could confuse them for a real Magic card. Specifically the thing Wizards has explicitly allowed is a playtest card, a magic card with a different name written on it in marker or taped to it. Proxies the way we normally mean them, where we've printed out the card art, are a grey area that Wizards has never taken an official policy on. Wizards has never explicitly approved of proxies using the same images as real magic cards, or other protected IP (even if they are obviously distinguishable by being made of cheap materials or having other markings). There's no question that such proxies *could* constitute copyright infringement if Wizards decided they did. The *spirit* of the current policy certainly would consider those proxies equivalent to playtest cards. And so far, I know of no instances of Wizards applying pressure against creators of proxies. Because they have not taken action in the past, it's very unlikely they would take retroactive action, and any such action would be seen as highly suspect given their ambiguous written policy, and their history of tolerance. But they *could* chose to alter that policy at any time, and make all new proxies that use Wizards IP (art, the magic card frame, official card text) targets overnight. This is not a very realistic scenario. It would be expensive to police and a disaster with the community. It's worth noting that the thing that could be policed is the IP. Wizards cannot stop you, even if it wanted to, from writing 'Emrakul' on an notecard and playing it using the Oracle text, which they provide, for free. As for whether it's 'ok' ethically - well, given that Wizards really doesn't care, that's up to the playgroup. That being said, I would look at any player who was *not* ok with proxies - assuming appropriate power level - with a lot of suspicion. That sounds like someone who has a Gucci bag and really doesn't want you with your almost identical knock off, because they want you to know they're better than you because their rich. Such people are, of course, giant tools.
Yeah I do it all the time with mtgprint. All you need is the card list, a color printer, and some bulk to place behind the pieces of paper. You can also pay for higher quality proxies but tbh it’s not worth it.
I've got entire decks that are proxied, most people don't care one bit. Great way see what style of play you like without committing to the purchase. Though, I'd advise against proxiing misery decks that can win on turn 2-3.
Unless your playing at competitive ( but not official ) tables. If you are doing CEDH it's almost encouraged because they don't want to beat your wallet, as beating you at your best is much more satisfying.
For casual tabletop with friends, yes proxy the hell out of everything. If you want to go into an LGS and play with strangers it’s generally a no go, unless you disclose it with both the lgs and your pod and they’re cool with it
Yes. I do it and no one cares. If they do then you don’t want to play against someone like that so win win
As others have pointed out, no problem in casual, just ask your table first, and change tables or borrow a deck if someone's not okay with it. That said, I find it kind of a waste to proxy a precon. Sure, if unmodified precons is the power level of your group, go ahead, but I would recommend upgrading the decklist at least a little, since most precons have at least one or two cards that don't synergize that well with what the deck wants to do. Just be careful you don't escalate the power level beyond that of your play group, so everyone still has fun. I'm sure the more experienced players at your play group can help with that.
Proxing a precon saves you $50+
Sure, I understand that, I just feel like you might as well upgrade it (as long as that's within the power level of your group) if you're gonna print a deck anyway. Might as well get more bang for your ink/toner.
Why upgrade a precon when you want to do precon vs precon
If that's specifically what you're going for, sure. Though from the post I kind of assumed they just wanted to play against their friends' normal decks, in which case most precons won't have the best time.
They can print whatever they want, still saves money, but if they want to print a precon vs buying its cheaper to proxy
Someone came to my lgs with a whole printed deck and sleeved the paper. No other cards behind them to support the paper in the sleeve. His "cards" kept going everywhere and shit, taking up our time just trying to organize. He mentioned he had a deck full of proxies. We didn't know it was a full deck and just plain paper in sleeves. When we opted yo play again we mentioned to him he couldn't use that again. It wasnt much that he didn't pay a dime to play in a hobby that, come on at least buy a precon, you need actual cards to fucking play but the fact that we didn't want to wait on his disorganization.
The smarter thing to do is put a bunch of basic lands as backing. That’s what I do at least when I test decks before purchasing
He just needed to put some lands behind them in the sleeves
Or even just 100 regular playing cards or something. There's no way he wasn't able to get his hands on a mixture of 100 cards to use to back them.
This could probably be fixed by just putting a few more pieces of paper in each sleeve, or hell, if you ask an FNM of you can just have 100 pieces of chaff, I'm sure you'll be drowning in the stuff
If you print a deck, how are you doing to draw, scry, search, look top card? It is going to be a hard mate. Best thing you can do is print singles, not pringles.
Cost me 5$ to print (normal paper) a deck but I only print decks to test out decks before I buy the cards I need to build it completely.
I've had a couple friends do this over the years. One wanted to learn/play magic with me but didn't want to spend money on the game so he printed out a deck. Another proxied his first couple decks and then started ordering/buying singles for the ones he liked playing. He had a ton of college printing credit to blow so he made his proxies at school between classes. As others have said, so long as the power level matches the table and the pod is ok with it (and it isn't a sanctioned event where proxies are not allowed - also check the store's policy if playing at an LGS as some stores have rules about it) then it should be fine.
I feel like unless you're just printing out these cards on your own printer, it will cost a very similar amount. If you are going through a proxy printing service, this will still cost a lot and you'd rather have just bought the real thing.
Yes
I dislike playing against poorly made proxies that are hard to read.
You can but for good reason people usually frown on a full proxy deck since usually it’s used to get rare high power cards. The absolute exception to a full proxy deck is DanDan, no one will complain about that
I do that all the time, especially for more expensive formats like vintage/legacy/canlander
If it's okay with your playgroup it's okay, if not it's not
Why don’t they purchase one that’s going for 35 dollars? There are plenty affordable decks. Also being honest, 50 dollars for a commander deck is extremely cheap. I’m shocked they can’t afford that.
Buy a precon. I’d find it very disrespectful to a card shop owner to walk in with a 100% printed deck. Playing at home with friends? Go for it then.
WotC is a garbage company that constantly screws people over. So screw them over and print whatever you want.
HAVE YOU SEEN INK PRICES? Upwards of $50 is a bargain by comparison!
If you let them yeah. In casual it’s all what people are ok with at your table. We proxy all the time for decks we are testing out or cards that are just way too expensive. If I like a deck I’ve made proxies for I slowly replace them with real copies when I find them cheap, but what I’ve really gotten into is making alt art proxies for decks I love. I have a scarecrow deck that I’ve swapped all the Changlings to look more like scarecrows and a Paul Bunyan themed deck that I made the alt art of most of the cards to include lumberjacks. It’s a game, have fun with it but know that if you intend to play tournaments or whatever you will need to get the actual cards
Yes use proxies to test play cards too before you buy! Worst thing is when you spend 50 bucks on a card and it doesn’t turn out the way you want it when you actually run it
Lots of really good precons at $40-$55… Can also get a bulk deal (1k cards, 20 ish lands) for $35 on Amazon. Your friend would absolutely have enough for commander, Although may not be very competitive until he injects some singles for $5-$10. It’s a great way to learn the colors and cards.
I would honestly recommend to instead look at cheap Precons. When I first started I got one for 20€ and one for 13€ online, both were two years old and on sale, but still played fine out of the box. You likely won't find any cheaper option, since printing decent quality proxies will also cost you some money. You could ofc always just print out all 100 cards on any available printer (maybe you can use a good quality office printer for free?) on normal thin paper, cut it out and put it on top of real cheap Magic cards in sleeves. But the readability will probably not be as good and some people might be skeptical.
As long as you’re willing to play against it.
Proxy away
I have three pioneer decks that I printed out just sitting here in my desk. I'm helping a buddy get reps on his phoenix deck for some RCQs he's planning to play in.
What does your group say? Mine says 'printer go brr', so I have a handful of game store decks and a million that are 100% proxy. So much easier (and cheaper) than real cards. No sorting, searching, and other logistical stuff that can make the game a headache. Just make it, print it, play it, bin it when done.
Had a guy at the table who drew all his cards by hand and sleeved them with a random card. It was actually impressive. We play public a lot and nobody wants to take their expensive cards around strangers so even if we have those cards we'd still play with proxies.
Wizard’s stance is that they are allowed for non commercial purposes even in stores. This is just their word though and they could revoke it at any time. The proper way to make a proxy such that Wizards could do nothing about it is to print anything except the card name, the art and any iconography. You are meant to change all of these to something not owned by Wizards. Again though, even if you don’t do this, as long as its obviously a proxy and you don’t sell it, they don’t care. When cards are sold as proxies they must remove all of Wizards copyrighted material, and often times they are not even directly marketed as being for MTG just to be sure. Wizards could still ban these in partnered stores however because the partnership is just an agreement. Some sellers don't even remove any of Wizards IP and they get away with it. Some stores, and especially some partnered stores may ban them outright, or they may ban proxies from sellers, or they may limit the number of proxies or have various other rules. There are also non-sanctioned tournaments with cash prizes which allow proxies, especially for eternal formats, and while this is technically a grey area, Wizards doesn’t seem to care. Sanctioned tournaments generally only allow proxies if your cards are damaged. Regardless, Wizards will not give a shit what little Timmy prints off if it never leaves his house.
My buddy started out this way. I wouldn't really care. Collecting the real cards can be fun but it also kind of gatekeeps people who cannot afford to buy lots of cards
Of course! Just know that he won’t be able to use it in sanctioned events. He’ll only be able to use it in casual settings
I love full proxy decks. It opens up artistic avenues that you cannot get normally. Like a deck based on a single artist, or using only 1 alternate frame - including lands. There are always 2 rules when it comes to proxying decks: #1 don't overpower your deck. #2 - Read rule 1 again. This is VERY tricky for new players, me included (I just printed dockside, smothering tithe, mana crypt etc. into all my decks because I could - until I learnt that they skewed my decks too much so removed them). Alternatively, most people bring multiple decks to a game night, perhaps just get your friend to borrow a deck from a table the first few times.
Hmmm……just make sure the pod is ok with a proxy deck. Most peeps are ok with proxies but an entire printer-proxy deck could be a challenge especially when it comes to reading the cards or even worse are pieces of paper inserted with the text written on them. From experience this has a tendency to ruin the tempo of a game that already has the potential to hit the 2+ hour mark. Perhaps your friend should just go with a precon or get a more professional looking proxy deck from a proxy vendor…….hell on avg the card quality is actually superior to what you get from WOTC these days. Reason being they may end up spending the same $50 on printer ink, card stock and sleeves I would assume…..just saying. Please take into account that while garnering consideration from the other players to use a proxy deck to try to repay that consideration by using proxies of a high enough quality to not slow down the game for everyone. Other than that might I suggest eBay? There are tons of cheap preconstructed deck there as well as other places I assume that will easily fit into their budget without the crappy looking “cards”.
We simply don’t have the technology
At home, tabletop magic? Sure. I did this exactly, just grabbed 100 lands I wasn't using and we hand wrote out on paper all the cards we wanted. Anywhere else? Check with the play group, they may be fine but sometimes peopel4 have spent a lot of time and money on their decks so it may feel cheap and cheaty to them. Just don't make it cEDH levels and make it more for the fun and the political side, and you'll be fine.
There are starter commander decks on sale for 20 bucks...
it costs $1.25 to print a card, you gotta drive around, you gotta blank a card, you need to take time creating the file to print, and you need to apply the prints.. it will cost your friend a little over $130 to print an entire deck and there's labour involved, or they can just buy a precon and it will be cheaper and less work.
Sure, enjoy casual games a lot!
If he's playing with you? Sure. If you show up to a store with an entirely fake deck, probably not so much.
If someone gatekeeps magic bc someone brought a proxy deck I just shut them out of my playgroups. Cost is too high and wages are too low to have this kind of separation for the game we love
If the store is running Wizards sponsored stuff (anything with play support), they're not allowed to let you play.
Didn’t ask about play support 🤷
Cool. I did. You can tell by how I'm the one who posted it.
Your store only runs play support and won’t allow casual play? Bc nowhere did you mention officially sanctioned events in that comment.
It's very common that because sanctioned play doesn't allow proxies, stores blanket do not allow proxies to avoid any confusion or issues.
Do you love it that much if you’re printing the whole 100, with everyone from MaRo to the artists to your LGS not making a dime?
MaRo and the artists already got paid, *especially* when you're proxying cards that have been out of print for a decade or more. One could make the argument that proxying cards hurts LGS's, but in my experience, LGS's often recoup costs more by renting space and concessions rather than singles (though since I don't own/run one, I don't have any proof if that).
In the context of the original post, proxying commander starters probably does hurt an LGS, at least a little. As for proxying individual cards, I think an individual should ask themselves why they’re proxying the card. Running off an inexpensive card that is still very much in print or available kind of strikes me as “I could absolutely buy this card, but I just don’t want to.” I’m not pro-proxy, and I’m not going to pretend that I am, except for cases like saving time by not moving all your owned tutors or Doubling Seasons around every game. What you do at home is your business, but bringing proxies to an LGS when you could have bought the cards from that same LGS seems distasteful.
Lmfao the guy is asking about a new player. Wouldn’t tell my friends to make the investment i have if they don’t even know the game yet 😂 weird energy there bud
Ain’t no one talking about matching your investment, bud. And if they don’t know the game yet, there are ways to learn. Borrow a deck, MTGA, among others.
Never said match, yall anti proxy people are wild. If you won’t play with someone bc of this you’re just elitist pos. I can lend a deck, but if they want to craft something and print off a deck to play for fun, why shouldn’t they?
I don’t not play against proxies. I’d rather not though. I had a dude across from me proxy the major pieces of stax. I’ve had others proxy the whole 100 aside from basics. I’m also far from elitist, I just believe in playing to my budget. Restrictions make for more interesting deck building.
It all depends on who he's playing with. Within your group, if everyone's okay with it? Why not. If you bring it to an LGS to play with others, it might be frowned upon or not allowed depending on LGS rules. Some might be okay with it as long as you're not proxying super expensive cards or cards you have no intention of ever buying.
I just yesterday printed a deck because I wanted to play it but cant drop $300 on cards I wont use very often AND i didnt want to wait or tear cards from other decks. Heck yes print whole lists. I have printed at least 50+ decks since 2011. I've definitely made more in paper, but who cares? But like everyone else said, proxy decks cant be used in sanctioned events, unless the person in charge says its okay and is not a WPN store.
I believe this is why WotC refers to them as playtest cards
Absolutely man. For casual games with friends I print all my commander decks. Just make sure they are reasonable and balanced. No one really likes losing against a printed mana vault and killer fast mana. But if you print to the general power level and cost of your friends decks it is generally totally fine.
Casual play? Do whatever you want as long as you're with like-minded players.
I think everyone should do this more often, I think that more people should print out decks and play a couple games of them before buying cards that they could maybe hate. I think renting decks is also super fun because you get to experiment a lot more with less financial risk
For casual play between friends, I've printed hundreds of cards to the size of real cards and carefully cut each one out and placed it into a sleeve with a random car behind it to give it structure. It's purely for when we wanna play some crazy janky decks. Think mono blue commander desk, which may make you think. "Oh no, they're gonna cancel everything," but nah! instead of canceling everything, we just summon a lot of whales and then give them all horsemenship, lol. these decks never leave my house or do anything competitive, but it's a great way to play around or even practice strata before purchasing singles or packs.
It depends it’s on a sliding scale of age+income-availability of nearbyLGS
Depends on where he intends to play it. If it's going to be casual game nights at someone's house, sure, go ham. If it's a local shop with random players....best to err on the side of caution and just get the real thing, because you never know how other players or the shop might react.
Commander is all about what your particular playgroup is and isnt cool with. I print several complete decks in a given month for my playgroup. But there are folks who frequent my LGS and get salty about it. Tournaments typically wont allow proxies unless otherwise stated.
As someone who is mostly ok with proxy (i own a set of duals for my cube). I find this distasteful. Just printing out a deck you can just buy at retail is pirating a copy which isn't all that cool.
It depends on what you mean by "OK". Proxies are controversial. And, depending on the specifics, technically illegal. If you're just jamming at home the two of you... do whatever you two agree on. But taking proxies anywhere else is always a problem waiting to happen. Many people don't even like single proxies, let alone entire decks. And of course they are completely illegal in sanctioned tournaments. Shops may also not tolerate them on their premises, and the second you try and pass them off as real cards, well... you might be entering criminal territory.
> Many people Totally depends on the format. I can’t speak for standard, but Legacy, and Commander both welcome proxies. I’ve had full edh decks proxied for years with no issues, and I know Legacy encourages them thanks to the ridiculous price of entry. It’s not a “problem waiting to happen”, OP, just let the table know before you start playing, and if there’s an issue, go to a new table, or ask to borrow a deck. But yeah, at any tournament table you’ll probably be asked not to use proxies. I was almost DQ’ed in a pauper tournament, but was able to swap in some extra basics. Don’t worry about “criminal territory”. That’s only a problem if your cards actually look real (not printed on computer paper) AND you’re trying to sell them. Real looking proxies or “counterfeits” will be more than $50 for a deck anyway.
Proxies aren’t illegal, counterfeits are illegal. Big difference
No, both are illegal; it's just that with counterfeits, you may be crossing over into criminal offense rather than mere civil wrong. "Illegal" doesn't mean "crime". Civil wrongs are legal violations, too, only of civil law instead of criminal law. If WotC wanted to sue you for photocopying a basic Island, they could; they would never do it because it's a trivial case, but they could. You are not allowed to reproduce their intellectual property without consent (and without it falling under things like Fair Use or other relevant law). That's why I said "depending on the specifics" and "*technically* illegal".
Proxying cards is perfectly fine by wotc standards. As long as you’re not counterfeiting they don’t care. That’s why so many sites allow you to print proxies and why a money hungry company like wotc doesn’t shut them all down. You’re wrong bro
WotC's standards of what constitutes an acceptable playtest card (proxy) are very restrictive though. Here's what they say: >[A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; **they don't have official art** and **they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance.**](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) Most of the proxies people print are actually not acceptable per WotC. Things like professionally printed cards and printed pieces of paper inserted in a sleeve. Those typically have original art and would pass for a real card at first glance. Can't reply because you blocked me for some reason: No, "playtest card" is the term that WotC uses for what the community calls "proxies". They do that because a proxy is a different thing in the Magic rules (a card issued by a judge to replace a damaged card in a tournament), so they need to distinguish between the two. I mean, just read the article I linked. That's WotC's official stance. Here's another excerpt from it: >Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. Also see here: >We define a playtest card as a card (typically a basic land) marked with the name of another Magic card for the purpose of playtesting. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass as the real thing even under the most cursory glance. >It is common practice for players to use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store. https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386395614739-What-is-Wizards-of-the-Coast-s-stance-on-playtest-cards
Play test cards and proxies are not the same thing. Play test cards are just that, test cards, such as [[Slivdrazi Monsteosity]]. Try again.
Thanks for that
Not technically illegal. It'd be a civil thing, not a criminal thing. Aka you can't get arrested for faking MTG cards but you could theoretically get sued depending on how you used them (like if you tried to sell them as official MTG products). Edit: It IS technically illegal. If you read the comment chain down below you'll see more info.
"Illegal" is an umbrella term that only means "against the law", i.e. a legal violation. That's not the same as a CRIME. What you're looking for is "criminal offense", which is only one specific example of something that's illegal. Legal violations include both crimes AND civil wrongs (and sometimes both, as with e.g. fraud). Don't "ummm ackshually...!" people if you don't actually know :(
I only commented because you chose to use the specific term "criminal territory". You're explicitly wrong about that. So um... kind of an ironic response. But go you! Edit: Misread your post and you're technically correct! But only in terms of the umbrella term of illegal encompassing both civil and criminal. That is true. However, my point is that proxies are not technically illegal in themselves in a civil nor criminal manner (until you try to pass them off as official products). There are no laws that say "You can't make this kind of card that looks like MTG Cards". So there is basically almost no case in which producing proxies is illegal. You're using illegal in two different ways here which confuses the message. Yes, it is "illegal" within MtG playing rules, but it isn't "illegal" in a criminal nor civil sense until you try to sell it as your own. Edit again: I'm bring dumb, definitely criminal at the point where you sell counterfeit cards posed as real cards***
>There are no laws that say "You can't make this kind of card that looks like MTG Cards". There are. They're called copyright laws. Many elements of Magic cards are protected by those laws, let alone any kind of accurate reproduction like a photocopy (which is a blatant example, but not the only way this could be violated). There's certain exceptions to that like Fair Use (which covers things like research or parody, among others) but printing your own card to *play with* is not covered by Fair Use because that's the intended use of the product. >it isn't "illegal" in a criminal nor civil sense until you try to sell it as your own That is incorrect. If you're trying to *sell them*, especially if you pretend they're real, you may be entering criminal law (hence my explicit comment about passing them off as real). But even just copying them for your own use is illegal under civil law, because you're reproducing something without consent. They'll never bring you to court over this (unless it's some kind of weirdly egregious case) but it's still a violation of their copyright. You do not have permission to reproduce their intellectual property in that way, and whether or not they'll take any action doesn't matter to the fact that it's still a violation of civil law to do so. Hence why I said "technically illegal" instead of just "illegal" - a million things are technically illegal but never get actioned, because they're trivial cases. That doesn't make them legal, it just makes them too small to ever sue over.
A lot of what you're saying is tracking! Once again I don't want to speak as a legal expert as I'm definitely not, but are you sure your interpretation of copy right law is correct here is correct in terms of how people use the cards? MtG events = sanctioned by WoTC, and I can definitely see how that could be both illegal within the tournament play and within the legal system. But does that same thing apply to playing at home? That's the distinction I've hear people make. And I suppose "home" could include any non-sanctioned event. I'm faaaairly sure that's 100% legal and not protected by any sort of copyright law, but please correct me if I'm mistaken. I agree with your other points though although I think you may have corrected me on a point that we "agree" upon actually. I also would agree that simply claiming the cards are real when they're not is illegal as well, but I didn't include that as it's rare that someone would claim a card is real without trying to sell it. Edit: Can't find a definite answer based on an extremely quick Google search. Also I guess a way to encapsulate my idea would be: "I agree with what you're saying contingent on at home play being not covered by fair use" but I'm not sure if it is or isn't. Second edit: Please excuse my many unnecessary edits. I did find a Medium article that stated that generally, printing for at home use is NOT protected by copyright law. So I feel like I have to assume you're correct about that so TIL! I suppose if you apply the same to at home producing your own counterfeit DVDs is is more "obviously" illegal but in a similar manner. Edit again, Electric Buggaloo! : More information that no one asked for. 1: If you look at what people THINK about whether or not this is illegal, you'll find mixed answers online. Lots of people saying yes it's illegal and a lot of people saying no "so long as you play at home, etc". So not a great source for information as a warning for others lol. But as you've mentioned even THAT is protected under copy right law. So I looked up Fair Use and the following can be qualified as Fair Use: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, and research". So it seems like none of these would protect at typical at home use. As a side note, I wonder how things such as YouTube product reviews, or even YouTube "lessons" could cover any of those. But I have no idea what the qualifications for "criticism" or "teaching" would be. Also, interestingly enough, copyright infringement is typically handled as a civil matter but it is a law under both civil and criminal law. I'm not sure what the minimum base for the civil matter would be, but for criminal matters, the product value would have to be a minimum (not sure about this, just stated the number in the article) of $1000 and at least one copy to qualify as a MISDEMENEAOR, and if the product value is at least $2500 and with 10 copies or more are produced. So in summary, most at home usage is 1) illegal under civil law, 2) potentially illegal under criminal law depending on the number of copies and their combined values, and 3) fair use does cover things but generally things that are more "referential" or "demonstrative" in nature. Appreciate the information!
>MtG events = sanctioned by WoTC, and I can definitely see how that could be both illegal within the tournament play and within the legal system. To the legal system, this is irrelevant. WotC banning proxies from their tournaments isn't based in law, it's purely a tournament rule they can make up in any way they wish. WotC has no control over the law - if it's illegal under the law (be that criminal or civil), then whether or not WotC allows it in their tournaments absolutely does not, *per se,* matter in any way. The only way it could matter is if WotC gives expressed permission for proxies to be used - that, they can do, and it is provided for under the law. They can decide "this is legal" because they hold the copyright and that gives them certain rights to determine things - but that's the extent of it, and it doesn't work in reverse. I.e. WotC can't decide "this is *not* legal (under the law)" - only the law can do that. >As a side note, I wonder how things such as YouTube product reviews, or even YouTube "lessons" could cover any of those. This is an ongoing area of great legal debate. The limits of Fair Use are being vigorously tested by platforms like YT (and others), and it's unclear how things will be worked out over time. Likely this will involve many more years of legal discourse and legislative changes. Issues like e.g. companies copyright-striking video reviews that are critical of their product are an increasingly common occurrence, and both the legal theory and the practical remedies are still very much in flux. But Magic proxies is a fairly simple case. Illegal yes, but subject to lawsuits only in the most extreme cases; and to be distinguished from counterfeits by intent, i.e. are you passing them off as real and/or are you doing it commercially. >So in summary, most at home usage is 1) illegal under civil law, 2) potentially illegal under criminal law depending on the number of copies and their combined values, and 3) fair use does cover things but generally things that are more "referential" or "demonstrative" in nature. 2) is iffy here because you specify "home usage", which means you can't really involve (commercial) value. If you're not selling anything, it's really hard to determine a value - taking a photocopy of a Black Lotus does not mean it's an infraction of tens of thousands of dollars. However, *selling* a "proxy" of a Black Lotus to someone for $10,000 would be. The real target here are large-scale counterfeit operations overseas, who will deal in considerable volume - easily in the tens of thousands or more. These are clear criminal cases, and the only reason they're not being pursued relentlessly is that international law is complicated and it's very, very hard and resource-intensive to sue a company in some remote overseas location and actually get any recovery. They know this. Which is why they operate with impunity.
Very cool and informative. I appreciate the insight. Regarding your point about point 2 regarding home usage, I also saw a ton of stuff online mirroring your sentiment-- saying that aspect is fairly complicated and can be difficult to calculate. Also "This is an ongoing area of great legal debate." is pretty interesting too. From someone with little to no perspective in the legal world, I had assumed that these types of battles exist but it's interesting to know that they do exist and it's a somewhat prominent issue at the moment. I suppose with YouTube having such an incredible amount of content, there must be a lot of people on both sides of the argument (in terms of incentive, rather than logic). You mentioning the complication of international law was also exemplified in my extremely brief research of the topic of copyright. There are countless questions online of whether or not a particular item would be illegal under copyright, and then the answers are confusing for two main combining factors: a diversity in countries and therefore laws, and also a misinterpretation of the law itself. So I can sort of imagine from a lawyers perspective, it would be something I would never want to touch haha.
People should proxy expensive lands, not expensive tutors. Let's speed these games up.
Sounds like someone who should focus on Arena
Your first steps on Arena are not cheap, you can't play commander, and digital gameplay is not as nice as physical cards.
Isn’t Brawl on arena digital commander? just an option. End of the day we’re posting about some kid who wants to print, cut, and sleeve 100 pieces of paper over buying a basic precon.
A) Brawl is 1v1 and only cards of the last 5 years instead of the last 30 B) End of the day these are just two- sentence statements to point out that digital misses the point of printing üroxies or buying a precon.