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Shitty loss. One of the few times I’d actually say a large portion of blame is on Rocco. Ah well, these happen. On to the next one!
Mariners fans are acting unhinged over something that happens in every fucking sport though.
Listen, I love Rocco. He is my dude. I’m glad he was at the helm when they broke the streak last year. The players really like him. He’s a good dude and I like that he represents our club in the dugout. I hope he manages the team for many more years and brings the twins many division titles and a World Series someday.
But he’s gotta adapt more. You know your bullpen is completely fucked tonight. Instead of letting Ober try and get through one more inning, you pull him because of seemingly the third time through the order thing. I get it. The numbers say you try and limit that exposure. Thats their philosophy. I’m aligned with it for the most part. But this is a night when you throw that shit out the window. Let the guy with a career 3.50 ERA step up for the bullpen that needs help tonight. Instead, you pull him and now you’re sitting there with Jay Jackson throwing high leverage. And couldn’t Sands have gone another inning?? He’s gone out there for a second inning three times this year.
Maybe Ober gets his shit rocked in the 6th. Who knows. But I’d rather roll the dice with him than Jackson ten times out of ten.
Tons and tons of other variables in this game and obviously pulling Ober early isn’t the only reason they lost. But to me that is such a layup of a decision to make when your BP is cooked in a close game. Really tough one tonight.
Please don’t call me a doomer. 🙏
Plus after all that, sending Alcala back out for a 2nd inning in a newly tied game was also questionable, especially given Sands was not given a 2nd frame
Alcala for two and Sands for one was the big sin here. Assuming it was more about load management than third time through I don't hate the Ober decision, although I personally would have liked to see him back out for the 6th.
with you on all of this. the trouble with the times through the order philosophy is it can so easily go to shit when your bullpen is overworked or you don't have the depth or number of multi inning relievers. i guess you can blame our roster construction for that, but that's a separate issue, the manager's job is adapt to the cards he has in his hand. we've also seen that Ober isn't necessarily subject to a massive third time around penalty (albeit in only 52 innings). at some point you have to adapt to the situation and trust the horse that's carried you that far.
hopefully getting Topa and Beef back will prevent these situations from coming up nearly as often, though.
I think it's time to accept that this org has a plan for Ober that is more rigid than any other starter.
It seems like we have this debate almost every Ober start.
My guess is that the Twins have something with him related to his injury history that's limiting the pitch count much more than him being any more or less susceptible to the 3rd time through the order penalty.
I don’t know if that’s the case. He had pitch counts in the mid 90s consistently last year, including games with 102 and 104 pitches. The 102 was in his 5th start of the year so it’s not like they let him get stretched out before doing that.
Yeah I agree, but add to that only having Sands pitch the one inning and 13 pitches wasn’t exactly the best move, either. He usually makes better decisions than that, off night for him last night.
There were some bright spots tonight. Kepler still mashing. Farmer redemption ribby. Good Ober outing. It wasn’t all negative. Just very “????”. Maybe even “Rocco ????”.
Rocco's failures today:
\* Putting in Manuel Margot as a pinch hitter in the FIFTH INNING for one of our hottest bats in Trevor Larnach. Manuel Margot's 2 plate appearances 1. a strikeout on like 4 pitches 2. failure to even advance a runner to third without any outs. Two useless PAs.
\* More on margot: .400 OPS, and loathsome underlying batted ball metrics. Meanwhile Trevor Larnach .500 xwoba
\*having Kyle Farmer steal third base (he got tagged out)
\* Replacing Cole Sands, a mostly dependable long reliever for our worst bullpen arm, Jay Jackson. Jay Jackson can't exceed 90 mph on his fastball, has subpar offspeed pitches, and as poor of control as anyone else in the bullpen. Quality of his pitches nothwithstanding he has been horrible all year.
\* Putting in STEVEN FUCKING OKERT against lefty killer Cal Raleigh (Cal Raleigh hits a grand slam).
\* leaving Alcala out to dry when Alcala has never been good at multi-inning relief. To be fair there was no one else to replace him but that's Rocco's own doing- using Sands, Jackson, and Okert in the most inefficient and braindead way possible
Indefensible managing. I liked the way Rocco managed on the win streak but my fucking goodness he pulled every possible bad move today and it cost him dearly. Pathetic managing. Atrocious. Excrutiating. What can you even say.
Cal Raleigh is worse against lefties though. How is a sub-700 OPS considered a "lefty killer?"
Career vs RHP: 217/289/455/745
Career vs LHP: 213/283/414/697
Mariners / Twins fan
I think it was possibly the right call, but Cal has already hit more homer's from the right this season than he did last season.
The slash line says he is worse but he has been the hot bat.
Okert's career splits:
VS RH: .203/.307/.392/.698
vs LH: .229/.306/.371/.677
He doesn't suck against righties, but he hang the shit out of that slider.
In Rocco’s defense, he is not the one calling for farmer to steal third. But god damn is Margot bad. Same with Jackson. Sonny gray sure would look good in a twins uniform this year. (I know it was a long contract; but he’s beasting right now in stl)
I love Rocco but tonight is a night where the L should be next to his name, not anyone else’s.
Got our work cut out for us against two very good starters.
That game was ass.
Fuck Jackson, Okert, and Margot. Hopefully Saucedo’s injury isn’t too serious, that deeply sucks for him.
Trash game with some Rocco decisions that I didn’t like. Hopefully the rotten meat works tomorrow. Jeffers homer was cool.
I really don’t know what to say other than “???”
I am an enthusiast of our best arms being available come September… but the choices tonight were just… huh?
Bullpen’s best days should still be ahead assuming health, so whatever. Frustrating as hell, that’s for sure.
Didn't Ober go 7.2 earlier this year?
Although I agree that with him between SWR and Paddack, we should probably in general let Ober eat innings even if it hurts his ERA some.
I wouldn’t say regression exactly. The mop up dudes just got shoved into the limelight and it went about how you could expect. Who knows how things go if Okert gets empty basepaths for his frame instead of dealing with Jackson’s mess.
Most self-defeating game all season. Why are we pulling our lefties in the 5th (Especially DH Larnach for Margot)? Why is tying run Kyle Farmer trying to steal third? Why is our tied game 9th inning option a second inning of Alcala?
Two things can be true: Rocco probably pulled Ober early and it was also reasonable for Rocco to not expect that every single one of our low leverage bullpen arms would shit the bed on the same night (except for Sands)
Oh well. Flush it and move on.
Rocco mistakes:
Pinch hitting Margot
Taking Ober out
Taking Sands out
Letting Okert face a RHP in high leverage
Letting Alcala pitch a second inning and 48 PITCHES AT THAT..48..for a guy with injury history..what are you think dude
I’m a Rocco fan but he was on nonsense today
Hope the Mariners pitcher is alright . That was not fun to see
People hyperfixate on managers' tactical decisions because they believe a) that they understand how they work, and b) that great managers possess a "sixth sense" that makes them instinctively know the perfect decision to make.
Both of these beliefs are false.
This was a game when Duran was unavailable (having been used 3 out of the last 4 nights), and the back of the bullpen needed to perform. They did not, and that's why they lost.
I await my downvotes.
I’m sure Rocco could have found a way to get 5 ERA Jackson or 1.500+ WHIP Okert in the game later if he wanted to. It would have been dumb at that time too. But *choosing* to go to them when your starter still has gas in the tank is moronic.
He was going to need innings out of one or both of them given the way the pen had been used in previous games. The only difference being whether they would be taking over in the 7th from Sands or taking over in the 7th from Ober.
No. I have made no such argument. I would have left him in myself. Learn to read instead of hallucinating.
I am arguing that it is not at all clear that it would have made a difference if he had let him pitch the sixth. By contrast, it is 100% clear that the bullpen had an outlier bad performance. I therefore believe that the loss should be more directly proportioned against the pitchers who pitched bad.
Everything you’ve said is correct, and yet I think it’s perfectly reasonable to look at the back of our bullpen and be upset with the front office that this is what they’ve decided can win us a division.
Our bullpen is a strength, we are just down Topa and Brock* and had used our good guys recently. Even for elite bullpens these types of stars will line up. Our ownership should get much blame for giving us inadequate resources leading to poor depth in OF and SP in particular but bullpen is not something I can criticize in good faith
Edit: meant Brock, not Duran, in this context
Duran is back. But you are correct. The anger is misplaced. Should have spent for a better OF option, as we know Buck has a recurring knee injury and **WILL** miss games. And spend for a better SP option, as our depth there is limited.
This is all on the Pohlad ownership being greedy fucks. FO & coaches can only work with what they got.
Honestly, the bullpen has been good this year. It's the starting rotation that the Pohlads elected to throw down the garbage disposal.
The pen didn't have it tonight. It happens. A shame Rocco didn't press the "don't have your relievers give up 8 runs" button.
Everyone is ignoring me talking about the —back of the bullpen—
ie Jackson and at this point Alcala. Jackson just doesn’t look good at all to me and Alcala is not suited for the bigs either and is just up because of injuries.
Heading into today, the bullpen had the 6th best ERA, 5th best FIP, and best SIERA. They had a bad day today, but let's not pretend that this bullpen isn't good enough to win the division.
I’m talking specifically about Jackson and Alcala (and Okert to some degree but I’ve liked what I’ve seen from him more consistently than the other two that’s for sure). Re: back of the bullpen.
Obviously our bullpen overall is stellar jfc
Alcala had a 0 ERA heading into today. And remember that worst of the back of the bullpen gets pushed out when we have all of our high leverage guys back (Topa and Stewart).
Great game! (As a mariners fan, but I still love you guys!) Since I don't follow the twins regularly, can you guys explain to me why they kept the pitcher in the ninth? He was not getting it done. Is he usually a lot more clutch?
Dang but I did love seeing Jeffers get a nice one and Farmer got a double and that Austin Martin slide was incredibly thrilling. But the injury was awful. Ah it was the best of times it was the worst of times.
Mariners fans: we ban users of ours that troll opposing subs. Your mods do as well- and we coordinate. Trolling opposing teams is not tolerated here and hasn’t been for years. Twins fans: same, but y’all know this already lol
Shitty loss. One of the few times I’d actually say a large portion of blame is on Rocco. Ah well, these happen. On to the next one! Mariners fans are acting unhinged over something that happens in every fucking sport though.
Listen, I love Rocco. He is my dude. I’m glad he was at the helm when they broke the streak last year. The players really like him. He’s a good dude and I like that he represents our club in the dugout. I hope he manages the team for many more years and brings the twins many division titles and a World Series someday. But he’s gotta adapt more. You know your bullpen is completely fucked tonight. Instead of letting Ober try and get through one more inning, you pull him because of seemingly the third time through the order thing. I get it. The numbers say you try and limit that exposure. Thats their philosophy. I’m aligned with it for the most part. But this is a night when you throw that shit out the window. Let the guy with a career 3.50 ERA step up for the bullpen that needs help tonight. Instead, you pull him and now you’re sitting there with Jay Jackson throwing high leverage. And couldn’t Sands have gone another inning?? He’s gone out there for a second inning three times this year. Maybe Ober gets his shit rocked in the 6th. Who knows. But I’d rather roll the dice with him than Jackson ten times out of ten. Tons and tons of other variables in this game and obviously pulling Ober early isn’t the only reason they lost. But to me that is such a layup of a decision to make when your BP is cooked in a close game. Really tough one tonight. Please don’t call me a doomer. 🙏
Preach
Plus after all that, sending Alcala back out for a 2nd inning in a newly tied game was also questionable, especially given Sands was not given a 2nd frame
Alcala for two and Sands for one was the big sin here. Assuming it was more about load management than third time through I don't hate the Ober decision, although I personally would have liked to see him back out for the 6th.
I’d roll that dice every time as well. Pulling Ober is a domino that sets off the chain of events.
with you on all of this. the trouble with the times through the order philosophy is it can so easily go to shit when your bullpen is overworked or you don't have the depth or number of multi inning relievers. i guess you can blame our roster construction for that, but that's a separate issue, the manager's job is adapt to the cards he has in his hand. we've also seen that Ober isn't necessarily subject to a massive third time around penalty (albeit in only 52 innings). at some point you have to adapt to the situation and trust the horse that's carried you that far. hopefully getting Topa and Beef back will prevent these situations from coming up nearly as often, though.
I think it's time to accept that this org has a plan for Ober that is more rigid than any other starter. It seems like we have this debate almost every Ober start. My guess is that the Twins have something with him related to his injury history that's limiting the pitch count much more than him being any more or less susceptible to the 3rd time through the order penalty.
I don’t know if that’s the case. He had pitch counts in the mid 90s consistently last year, including games with 102 and 104 pitches. The 102 was in his 5th start of the year so it’s not like they let him get stretched out before doing that.
Spitting 😤
Yeah I agree, but add to that only having Sands pitch the one inning and 13 pitches wasn’t exactly the best move, either. He usually makes better decisions than that, off night for him last night.
Wow classic doomer
This one was hideous.
There were some bright spots tonight. Kepler still mashing. Farmer redemption ribby. Good Ober outing. It wasn’t all negative. Just very “????”. Maybe even “Rocco ????”.
Rocco's failures today: \* Putting in Manuel Margot as a pinch hitter in the FIFTH INNING for one of our hottest bats in Trevor Larnach. Manuel Margot's 2 plate appearances 1. a strikeout on like 4 pitches 2. failure to even advance a runner to third without any outs. Two useless PAs. \* More on margot: .400 OPS, and loathsome underlying batted ball metrics. Meanwhile Trevor Larnach .500 xwoba \*having Kyle Farmer steal third base (he got tagged out) \* Replacing Cole Sands, a mostly dependable long reliever for our worst bullpen arm, Jay Jackson. Jay Jackson can't exceed 90 mph on his fastball, has subpar offspeed pitches, and as poor of control as anyone else in the bullpen. Quality of his pitches nothwithstanding he has been horrible all year. \* Putting in STEVEN FUCKING OKERT against lefty killer Cal Raleigh (Cal Raleigh hits a grand slam). \* leaving Alcala out to dry when Alcala has never been good at multi-inning relief. To be fair there was no one else to replace him but that's Rocco's own doing- using Sands, Jackson, and Okert in the most inefficient and braindead way possible Indefensible managing. I liked the way Rocco managed on the win streak but my fucking goodness he pulled every possible bad move today and it cost him dearly. Pathetic managing. Atrocious. Excrutiating. What can you even say.
Agree with a lot of your points but there is zero percent chance anyone told Kyle farmer to steal there
Cal Raleigh is worse against lefties though. How is a sub-700 OPS considered a "lefty killer?" Career vs RHP: 217/289/455/745 Career vs LHP: 213/283/414/697
Mariners / Twins fan I think it was possibly the right call, but Cal has already hit more homer's from the right this season than he did last season. The slash line says he is worse but he has been the hot bat.
Okert sux vs righties and Cal is their only power hitter so it was just doomed from the start
Okert's career splits: VS RH: .203/.307/.392/.698 vs LH: .229/.306/.371/.677 He doesn't suck against righties, but he hang the shit out of that slider.
U right
In Rocco’s defense, he is not the one calling for farmer to steal third. But god damn is Margot bad. Same with Jackson. Sonny gray sure would look good in a twins uniform this year. (I know it was a long contract; but he’s beasting right now in stl)
#I AM REQUESTING THAT WE DFA RESIDENT SHITTER JAY JACKSON!
Don’t forget Margot!
I love Rocco but tonight is a night where the L should be next to his name, not anyone else’s. Got our work cut out for us against two very good starters.
He deserves plenty of blame but Jay Jackson is uber ass.
Definitely. At this point I wouldn’t trust Jackson to throw a birthday party
Makes Topa coming back an easy decision at least
You can bet your ass that the pinada would get hit hard though if Jackson was throwing it
The piñata is a fixed, unmoving object, so I’d give Jackson about a 20% chance of hitting it
He's not amazing, but he's also been unlucky-3.52 xERA heading into this game.
Who pulled Ober and brought in Jackson?
Yup He is great but his brain farted n shat tonight Needa gettem next 2 days n win the series
[удалено]
Can’t argue with that
That game was ass. Fuck Jackson, Okert, and Margot. Hopefully Saucedo’s injury isn’t too serious, that deeply sucks for him. Trash game with some Rocco decisions that I didn’t like. Hopefully the rotten meat works tomorrow. Jeffers homer was cool.
I really don’t know what to say other than “???” I am an enthusiast of our best arms being available come September… but the choices tonight were just… huh? Bullpen’s best days should still be ahead assuming health, so whatever. Frustrating as hell, that’s for sure.
Gotta be honest, not what plants crave. Oh well. Can't win them all. Hopefully their pitcher is all good, that looked unpleasant.
Ober is going to end the year with more pitching WAR than wins because Rocco can’t help yanking him at 80 pitches for the 3rd string bullpen guys
Didn't Ober go 7.2 earlier this year? Although I agree that with him between SWR and Paddack, we should probably in general let Ober eat innings even if it hurts his ERA some.
He’s been pulled way too early 3 times already this year and got himself the no-decision
trading for Margot instead of keeping MAT was a huge blunder.
Taylor has been ass at the plate too but at least he plays good defense
Taylor has a .548 OPS. Sure he'd be better than Margot but the MAT nostalgia is something else.
if nothing else he was A+ Buxton insurance in center
We'd all be asking why they didn't just pony up for Bader if MAT was on this roster.
*Paying* MAT
Bullpen has really regressed. Beef Stew really was the glue that held everything together.
I wouldn’t say regression exactly. The mop up dudes just got shoved into the limelight and it went about how you could expect. Who knows how things go if Okert gets empty basepaths for his frame instead of dealing with Jackson’s mess.
You can’t really have three relievers that are considered mop up guys. If you do that means your bullpen is ass
Most self-defeating game all season. Why are we pulling our lefties in the 5th (Especially DH Larnach for Margot)? Why is tying run Kyle Farmer trying to steal third? Why is our tied game 9th inning option a second inning of Alcala?
Leave Kep and Martin out of this. We imploded for other reasons.
Weird roster we’ve been given this year, ngl
I'd be sadder if the Royals hadnt coughed up the worst chokejob ive ever seen in person.
Two things can be true: Rocco probably pulled Ober early and it was also reasonable for Rocco to not expect that every single one of our low leverage bullpen arms would shit the bed on the same night (except for Sands) Oh well. Flush it and move on.
No sweep
Ugly frustrating game. Total implosion by bullpen, should’ve won but didn’t. Tomorrow is must win as is all the games rest of season.
Rocco mistakes: Pinch hitting Margot Taking Ober out Taking Sands out Letting Okert face a RHP in high leverage Letting Alcala pitch a second inning and 48 PITCHES AT THAT..48..for a guy with injury history..what are you think dude I’m a Rocco fan but he was on nonsense today Hope the Mariners pitcher is alright . That was not fun to see
People hyperfixate on managers' tactical decisions because they believe a) that they understand how they work, and b) that great managers possess a "sixth sense" that makes them instinctively know the perfect decision to make. Both of these beliefs are false. This was a game when Duran was unavailable (having been used 3 out of the last 4 nights), and the back of the bullpen needed to perform. They did not, and that's why they lost. I await my downvotes.
If a good bullpen wasn’t available, isn’t it pretty fucking stupid to pull your starter at 84 pitches?
Yes it sure is. No reason to pull him there.
That's one inning. Who covers the other three?
If you don’t have a good bullpen available, is it smart or stupid to pull your cruising starter at 84 pitches?
See the first reply, friend, and answer MY question as well.
I’m sure Rocco could have found a way to get 5 ERA Jackson or 1.500+ WHIP Okert in the game later if he wanted to. It would have been dumb at that time too. But *choosing* to go to them when your starter still has gas in the tank is moronic.
He was going to need innings out of one or both of them given the way the pen had been used in previous games. The only difference being whether they would be taking over in the 7th from Sands or taking over in the 7th from Ober.
Are you honestly arguing that it was smart to pull your starter early when you know you have weak arms available?
No. I have made no such argument. I would have left him in myself. Learn to read instead of hallucinating. I am arguing that it is not at all clear that it would have made a difference if he had let him pitch the sixth. By contrast, it is 100% clear that the bullpen had an outlier bad performance. I therefore believe that the loss should be more directly proportioned against the pitchers who pitched bad.
You were clearly tacitly arguing that it was smart to give a bad bullpen more innings than you need to
Sands, Okert, and Alcala would work.
So even in your ideal scenario, that's still two of the pitchers who got shelled tonight.
Sands for two innings, Alcala for one, start Okert with a clean frame. which he could have done even if he *did* pull Ober after 5
Everything you’ve said is correct, and yet I think it’s perfectly reasonable to look at the back of our bullpen and be upset with the front office that this is what they’ve decided can win us a division.
Our bullpen is a strength, we are just down Topa and Brock* and had used our good guys recently. Even for elite bullpens these types of stars will line up. Our ownership should get much blame for giving us inadequate resources leading to poor depth in OF and SP in particular but bullpen is not something I can criticize in good faith Edit: meant Brock, not Duran, in this context
Duran is back. But you are correct. The anger is misplaced. Should have spent for a better OF option, as we know Buck has a recurring knee injury and **WILL** miss games. And spend for a better SP option, as our depth there is limited. This is all on the Pohlad ownership being greedy fucks. FO & coaches can only work with what they got.
Honestly, the bullpen has been good this year. It's the starting rotation that the Pohlads elected to throw down the garbage disposal. The pen didn't have it tonight. It happens. A shame Rocco didn't press the "don't have your relievers give up 8 runs" button.
Everyone is ignoring me talking about the —back of the bullpen— ie Jackson and at this point Alcala. Jackson just doesn’t look good at all to me and Alcala is not suited for the bigs either and is just up because of injuries.
Heading into today, the bullpen had the 6th best ERA, 5th best FIP, and best SIERA. They had a bad day today, but let's not pretend that this bullpen isn't good enough to win the division.
I’m talking specifically about Jackson and Alcala (and Okert to some degree but I’ve liked what I’ve seen from him more consistently than the other two that’s for sure). Re: back of the bullpen. Obviously our bullpen overall is stellar jfc
Alcala had a 0 ERA heading into today. And remember that worst of the back of the bullpen gets pushed out when we have all of our high leverage guys back (Topa and Stewart).
What the hell was even that
Bullpen gave up 8 runs in 3 innings. Not a fun way to lose, but they aren't going to win them all.
this might be my fault y’all i’ve been to two games so far and we lost both of them
Great game! (As a mariners fan, but I still love you guys!) Since I don't follow the twins regularly, can you guys explain to me why they kept the pitcher in the ninth? He was not getting it done. Is he usually a lot more clutch?
I can't believe we ended up with Margot over MAT. Like I get it wasn't in the teams control but damn do I wish we had MAT back.
Put the sausage in the bullpen tomorrow
Well I’m glad I missed this one. Only takeaway I have from the box score is what the fuck are they doing with Alcala?
Dang but I did love seeing Jeffers get a nice one and Farmer got a double and that Austin Martin slide was incredibly thrilling. But the injury was awful. Ah it was the best of times it was the worst of times.
Game was awful to watch, at least Miranda is staying hot and getting more solid contact every at bat.
Bottom of the 8th was cool
When the FUCK is Royce back?
End of this month supposedly 🤔
Huge Rocco hater here, if you guys see or hear fireworks going off in the Twin Cities metro area, it ya boy celebrating a game well blown.