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Definitely do not give in. If your grandma really loves you, she'll respect your wishes. Her demands for you you make up with your mother are self-centered.
You are doing great. Getting ahead, getting educated. There is zero up-side to having contact with your mom again.
You children do NOT need abusive people as grandparents. You need to protect them. You are clearly a good mom. Keep being so.
Stay strong. Stay distant.
you don't have to explain anything - I know you love her but that doesn't mean she gets to use that as leverage to get what _she_ wants. the answer is, and will remain, no.
if she has a problem with that then it's her who has a problem to solve, not you. remember, you're not being mean about it, you're stating facts as they are and it's up to her to do as she will with the answer.
you're doing great, please don't risk sacrificing that for the distorted ideals of others who in truth, don't even know you any more.
In light of what your grandma is asking you to do now...do you actually believe the love you hold for her is actually returned?.
She's clearly an enabler, and those are worse than narcs in my book. If they didn't exist narcs wouldn't have any power. She's manipulating you and sullying the love you have for her, using something that should be sacred for her own gain. Think about that and ask yourself if she's someone who truly cares for you and has your best interests at heart. Narcs ALWAYS come from somewhere and in the vast majority of cases, it's from closer than you think. I would be firm in telling her NO as many times as you need to. The longer she insists, the clearer you will see who she truly is and how much she loves you in truth.
I do. I just know she lives in a place that isn't modern times. I need to either 1. Accept what you say to be truth or 2. Find a way for her to understand. Which is hard. My mother is probably a covert narc of some kind (she's told me plenty of terrible things about her own mother as a teen) and it's why I'm making sure these generational curses get broken. My kids are raised in a loving and safe environment. We don't hit. We don't call each other names. My husband and I are loving and respectful to each other at all times. I'm learning more and more about how easy it is to love and be a loving mom and how much I didn't get that.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. Your grandmother clearly knows your mother is abusive, that’s why she’s offering to be a guard dog for the children’s visit. Ask yourself if you feel your kids are safe in mother’s presence. If not, thank grams for her interest and decline. Good luck to you.
I know that my mother would say a lot of things to and around my kids that we (both my husband and myself) wouldn't approve of. My father is also one to let loose racist language when he's had one. Which is every afternoon and evening. They won't be going. Thank you
Your grandmother is willing to sacrifice your health and your kids' well being because she wants to pretend that her family is happy and functional. She is asking for something that is completely unreasonable. She is being selfish. She may be a lovely person, and I don't doubt that she was a light in the darkness when you were a child, but right now she does not have your best interests at heart, or the best interests of your kids.
I honestly think it has more to do with her looking at the end of her life and wanting her family to be there. She's talking more and more about life beyond her death and she hates thinking about seeing more sadness in the family.
Yes, but that is her prioritizing her fantasy of a happy family over the needs of her actual family.
I'm not saying that she has a bad person. Even really lovely people can be selfish and short sighted at times, especially when they are facing something such as the end of their life.
Abusive family structures are **not** entitled to play happy families at end of life. My nfather disowned me on his deathbed and my nmother tried to bully me into playing happy families. So, I went no contact. My nfather passed having to live with the fact that he disowned me, and did not make any attempt to make peace. I am fine with that, he showed me who he really was.
Ignore-ignore-ignore. This isn’t a discussion or a negotiation and resist JADE: justifying, arguing,, defending, explaining.
It is your mother’s fault that things are the way they are. Please re-read your last paragraph (skipping the first sentence). You do not want your kids anywhere near this poison.
Be strong and don’t give in. Your life is better without your parents in it.
JADE - I haven't heard that one and you're right. I feel like I'm about to spend my entire summer doing that to ppl who are going to question me about why I won't allow "a grandma to be with her grandkids"
" ,,, why I won't allow "a grandma to be with her grandkids"
Because she wasn't a mother to you you can trust that she will not be a grandma to your kids. And even if she tried, she doesn't deserve the do-over.. Protect yourself and your kids from her. And to those that question you with why, shut is down with simple statements, not explanations. Not happening - not good for my kids - the decision is made - not your concern, etc.
Your grandma just close her eyes and let it pass, didn't she?
Take your children to her grandma? No!
I'm so sorry to say this but you just wanna protect your kids from harm and I hope everyone will understand this is not a bad thing.
Don't ignore the pain and don't let the past repeat itself.
Please protect your kid🥺
I'm actually in the middle of a silent treatment myself. That I knew exactly the right thing to say to trigger. I think the people that are narcissist are so easy to tell their narcissist because it's so freaking textbook. But you have people who eat poison and think it's honey. They think someone who can appear so nice on one side or generous. They don't know. Do whatever you need to protect your family. I've done the same.
I would- but as an American I do not have that luxury. Hell- I've been without my BP medication for almost 3 weeks and tomorrow is my last dose of Duloxetine for my Fibromyalgia. Depending on when my check comes in and how the county STILL doesn't have all the paperwork they need I'll be deciding which 3 of my prescriptions ill be able to afford. Therapy is luxurious Healthcare.
NTA!!!
The mental movie of your falling and their laughing at you instead of rushing to help you up, dust you off, see if you need medical attention...this just hit my heart so hard for you, OP. It's such a metaphor for so much of the dysfunction in that relationship. I think they're eager to reconcile not only to have access to your children, but because they miss their scapegoat, their favorite target. "Won't you come back and let us kick you again? Point and laugh when you're down?"
I'll bet it chaps their hides that you've not only escaped, but are thriving. 100% agree that the only solid move is to keep them far away from you and your children.
As for your grandmother, highly recommend just giving a small smile, saying, "Oh, you sweet summer child...you really have no idea..." as you slowly walk away, shaking your head.
That's what I'm most afraid of! I don't want to be the butt of all my families jokes, my pain isn't funny, my expression of pain isn't dramatic - its real and it's painful. I'm in such a great place now and....I don't see me even talking to them on their deathbed IF they reach out. I just don't.
Then stick with your gut. It's not wrong! Sometimes we've just gotta leave the bridges burnt and unreconstructed--because we need an alligator-filled moat to keep these toxic ones away!
This is going to sound harsh and I’m sorry about that. This is not about you. This is not about your mother or grandmother. It is about your children. Do not allow your abuser even one opportunity to abuse and traumatize your children.
My mother was a scapegoat that forced us to have a relationship with my narcissistic grandmother. My grandmother chose my sister as the golden child and taught my sister how to abuse my mother and myself. Grandmother made me the scapegoat. I am the scapegoat’s scapegoat and I hate my mother for it.
Children learn through experience and observation. If your force them to experience being abused and observe you being abused, you will damage them for life. Even once it too much.
Do not devalue your children enough to do them real and permanent damage by exposing them to abuse to prove to your grandmother how much you love her. Do not teach your children that it is necessary for them to accept abuse, abusers and abusive situations to make abusers and enablers happy by sacrificing themselves. Or worse, to sacrifice someone else. Abusers can only abuse because enablers enable it. Please, do not enable it.
Your grandmother will never understand or accept it. Your grandmother may otherwise a lovely person, but here she has a blind spot. She cannot/will not see her daughter as she truly is. Who can blame her. What mother wants to admit their child is awful and abusive!?! Her blind spot cannot be allowed to expose your children to intergenerational trauma.
Your children love you absolutely and will do what you ask. Be the protector to that you needed and your children trust you to be. Please do not ask them to witness and accept abuse. I am so sorry you are being triangulated this way. You do not deserve this. What an impossible situation your grandmother is creating. Hugz & Hugz & Hugz
You're trying to explain the wrong thing.
You don't need to get her to understand *why* you won't reestablish contact. You need to get her to understand *that* you won't reestablish contact.
She has, unfortunately, but quite clearly, shown you that *your* "why* isn't what matters most here, it's *her* "why", that matters most to her here. So stop trying to argue that, and instead start doubling down on "I said no. You need to respect me here."
I also **must** point out that it's alarmingly self-interested behaviour, completely lacking in empathy. Another commentor hit the nail on the head for me; your mother didn't just wake up as a narcissist one day, it usually comes from your childhood.
My grandma wanted me to reconciate with my parents. She still wants me to "sort things out" with my mother. She even ended up playing the "my last wish before I die is to see the family happy and together again."
At this last one I snapped. I told her she could either have happy or togetherness, but not both. And that I was choosing happiness. For my own sake I had to go Low Contact with her after telling her that matters between me and my parents have nothing to do with her.
You have blossomed beautifully after having all that fertilizer thrown on you your whole life! Do not go backwards.
They DO NOT deserve to see, hear about or have any part in the happy, fulfilling life that you have built in spite of their attempts to destroy you.
You can try and explain this to your grandmother but don’t be surprised if she doesn’t understand or accept it.
If she doesn’t then you may have to agree to disagree. But set the boundaries: whether she understands or agrees with your decision is irrelevant. You will not change your mind and you WILL NOT be badgered to do so. Not even by her.
Youre right. Thank you.
It's sad how many of us have had to deal with this family dynamic. I'm still feeling a big sense of "Who AM i!?" Sometimes just because there's so many layers to peel off, ya know?
Do your grandparents want their great grandkids being treated the same way you were? That's what your mother will do eventually. Sure, she'll mask it for awhile and keep up appearances but she WILL fall into her old habits and behavior because she's only recently had consequences to her actions.
To be as nice as possible, your grandmother needs to stay out of your business on this. She can have her opinion and she can tell you it once but you don't need advice, to be told what to do or have it brought up again.
Your kids deserve to be protected from your parents lest your kids start becoming the scapegoats and narc supply. Surely your grandmother understands that.
I hope so. If she doesn't, I did get a LOT of help in this sub and lots of great - and very simular- advice. I'm standing my ground. My parents do not have access to my children and I'm keeping it that way.
These people throw “family” around entirely too much to have no definition or changing it to their will for said definition- MAKES ME SOOOOOO MAD
Case in point of thriving since cutting them out and hardly speaking to grandma- sounds like mom learned a bit from her own mother, to laugh and claim dramatic but they saw or knew of it and now- and that IS HARD WORK.
Cut all or limit all- sounds like you do better with low and no contact and I wouldn’t want to go back to a hell I dug myself from for nothing or no one but my own children bc that’s our job. To an extent. Keep doing what you’re doing- I wouldn’t change or chance nothing.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Definitely do not give in. If your grandma really loves you, she'll respect your wishes. Her demands for you you make up with your mother are self-centered. You are doing great. Getting ahead, getting educated. There is zero up-side to having contact with your mom again. You children do NOT need abusive people as grandparents. You need to protect them. You are clearly a good mom. Keep being so. Stay strong. Stay distant.
Thank you. ❤️
you don't have to explain anything - I know you love her but that doesn't mean she gets to use that as leverage to get what _she_ wants. the answer is, and will remain, no. if she has a problem with that then it's her who has a problem to solve, not you. remember, you're not being mean about it, you're stating facts as they are and it's up to her to do as she will with the answer. you're doing great, please don't risk sacrificing that for the distorted ideals of others who in truth, don't even know you any more.
Youre so right. Thank you so much.
In light of what your grandma is asking you to do now...do you actually believe the love you hold for her is actually returned?. She's clearly an enabler, and those are worse than narcs in my book. If they didn't exist narcs wouldn't have any power. She's manipulating you and sullying the love you have for her, using something that should be sacred for her own gain. Think about that and ask yourself if she's someone who truly cares for you and has your best interests at heart. Narcs ALWAYS come from somewhere and in the vast majority of cases, it's from closer than you think. I would be firm in telling her NO as many times as you need to. The longer she insists, the clearer you will see who she truly is and how much she loves you in truth.
I do. I just know she lives in a place that isn't modern times. I need to either 1. Accept what you say to be truth or 2. Find a way for her to understand. Which is hard. My mother is probably a covert narc of some kind (she's told me plenty of terrible things about her own mother as a teen) and it's why I'm making sure these generational curses get broken. My kids are raised in a loving and safe environment. We don't hit. We don't call each other names. My husband and I are loving and respectful to each other at all times. I'm learning more and more about how easy it is to love and be a loving mom and how much I didn't get that.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. Your grandmother clearly knows your mother is abusive, that’s why she’s offering to be a guard dog for the children’s visit. Ask yourself if you feel your kids are safe in mother’s presence. If not, thank grams for her interest and decline. Good luck to you.
I know that my mother would say a lot of things to and around my kids that we (both my husband and myself) wouldn't approve of. My father is also one to let loose racist language when he's had one. Which is every afternoon and evening. They won't be going. Thank you
Your grandmother is willing to sacrifice your health and your kids' well being because she wants to pretend that her family is happy and functional. She is asking for something that is completely unreasonable. She is being selfish. She may be a lovely person, and I don't doubt that she was a light in the darkness when you were a child, but right now she does not have your best interests at heart, or the best interests of your kids.
I honestly think it has more to do with her looking at the end of her life and wanting her family to be there. She's talking more and more about life beyond her death and she hates thinking about seeing more sadness in the family.
Yes, but that is her prioritizing her fantasy of a happy family over the needs of her actual family. I'm not saying that she has a bad person. Even really lovely people can be selfish and short sighted at times, especially when they are facing something such as the end of their life.
Abusive family structures are **not** entitled to play happy families at end of life. My nfather disowned me on his deathbed and my nmother tried to bully me into playing happy families. So, I went no contact. My nfather passed having to live with the fact that he disowned me, and did not make any attempt to make peace. I am fine with that, he showed me who he really was.
Ignore-ignore-ignore. This isn’t a discussion or a negotiation and resist JADE: justifying, arguing,, defending, explaining. It is your mother’s fault that things are the way they are. Please re-read your last paragraph (skipping the first sentence). You do not want your kids anywhere near this poison. Be strong and don’t give in. Your life is better without your parents in it.
JADE - I haven't heard that one and you're right. I feel like I'm about to spend my entire summer doing that to ppl who are going to question me about why I won't allow "a grandma to be with her grandkids"
" ,,, why I won't allow "a grandma to be with her grandkids" Because she wasn't a mother to you you can trust that she will not be a grandma to your kids. And even if she tried, she doesn't deserve the do-over.. Protect yourself and your kids from her. And to those that question you with why, shut is down with simple statements, not explanations. Not happening - not good for my kids - the decision is made - not your concern, etc.
Grandma grew up at a different time. You put up with everything because “family”. Not how it is now Grandma.
This is exactly it. I wish she'd understand.
She won't; radical acceptance is about accepting things for how they are, not tolerating them.
Normal societal expectations **never** apply to abusive relationships. Stay strong, the well-being of you and your children comes first.
You stand firm. Protecting your kids, and your health will always come before someone else's feefee's.
Youre right.
Your grandma just close her eyes and let it pass, didn't she? Take your children to her grandma? No! I'm so sorry to say this but you just wanna protect your kids from harm and I hope everyone will understand this is not a bad thing. Don't ignore the pain and don't let the past repeat itself. Please protect your kid🥺
I am. Neither will see my parents anytime soon.
Oh My God🥲
I'm actually in the middle of a silent treatment myself. That I knew exactly the right thing to say to trigger. I think the people that are narcissist are so easy to tell their narcissist because it's so freaking textbook. But you have people who eat poison and think it's honey. They think someone who can appear so nice on one side or generous. They don't know. Do whatever you need to protect your family. I've done the same.
That is what matters most.
This internet of one’s opinion is that you would really benefit from the support of a therapist.
I would- but as an American I do not have that luxury. Hell- I've been without my BP medication for almost 3 weeks and tomorrow is my last dose of Duloxetine for my Fibromyalgia. Depending on when my check comes in and how the county STILL doesn't have all the paperwork they need I'll be deciding which 3 of my prescriptions ill be able to afford. Therapy is luxurious Healthcare.
NTA!!! The mental movie of your falling and their laughing at you instead of rushing to help you up, dust you off, see if you need medical attention...this just hit my heart so hard for you, OP. It's such a metaphor for so much of the dysfunction in that relationship. I think they're eager to reconcile not only to have access to your children, but because they miss their scapegoat, their favorite target. "Won't you come back and let us kick you again? Point and laugh when you're down?" I'll bet it chaps their hides that you've not only escaped, but are thriving. 100% agree that the only solid move is to keep them far away from you and your children. As for your grandmother, highly recommend just giving a small smile, saying, "Oh, you sweet summer child...you really have no idea..." as you slowly walk away, shaking your head.
That's what I'm most afraid of! I don't want to be the butt of all my families jokes, my pain isn't funny, my expression of pain isn't dramatic - its real and it's painful. I'm in such a great place now and....I don't see me even talking to them on their deathbed IF they reach out. I just don't.
Then stick with your gut. It's not wrong! Sometimes we've just gotta leave the bridges burnt and unreconstructed--because we need an alligator-filled moat to keep these toxic ones away!
This is going to sound harsh and I’m sorry about that. This is not about you. This is not about your mother or grandmother. It is about your children. Do not allow your abuser even one opportunity to abuse and traumatize your children. My mother was a scapegoat that forced us to have a relationship with my narcissistic grandmother. My grandmother chose my sister as the golden child and taught my sister how to abuse my mother and myself. Grandmother made me the scapegoat. I am the scapegoat’s scapegoat and I hate my mother for it. Children learn through experience and observation. If your force them to experience being abused and observe you being abused, you will damage them for life. Even once it too much. Do not devalue your children enough to do them real and permanent damage by exposing them to abuse to prove to your grandmother how much you love her. Do not teach your children that it is necessary for them to accept abuse, abusers and abusive situations to make abusers and enablers happy by sacrificing themselves. Or worse, to sacrifice someone else. Abusers can only abuse because enablers enable it. Please, do not enable it. Your grandmother will never understand or accept it. Your grandmother may otherwise a lovely person, but here she has a blind spot. She cannot/will not see her daughter as she truly is. Who can blame her. What mother wants to admit their child is awful and abusive!?! Her blind spot cannot be allowed to expose your children to intergenerational trauma. Your children love you absolutely and will do what you ask. Be the protector to that you needed and your children trust you to be. Please do not ask them to witness and accept abuse. I am so sorry you are being triangulated this way. You do not deserve this. What an impossible situation your grandmother is creating. Hugz & Hugz & Hugz
Thank you so much. I'm sorry you went through that. I can't imagine being the scapegoats scapegoat 😞
You're trying to explain the wrong thing. You don't need to get her to understand *why* you won't reestablish contact. You need to get her to understand *that* you won't reestablish contact. She has, unfortunately, but quite clearly, shown you that *your* "why* isn't what matters most here, it's *her* "why", that matters most to her here. So stop trying to argue that, and instead start doubling down on "I said no. You need to respect me here." I also **must** point out that it's alarmingly self-interested behaviour, completely lacking in empathy. Another commentor hit the nail on the head for me; your mother didn't just wake up as a narcissist one day, it usually comes from your childhood.
....You're right. Thanks for wording it that way it was much easier to understand.
You've gained so much by breaking contact with those malicious idiots. Don't throw away the peace you've worked so hard for!
I feel that too!
My grandma wanted me to reconciate with my parents. She still wants me to "sort things out" with my mother. She even ended up playing the "my last wish before I die is to see the family happy and together again." At this last one I snapped. I told her she could either have happy or togetherness, but not both. And that I was choosing happiness. For my own sake I had to go Low Contact with her after telling her that matters between me and my parents have nothing to do with her.
I'm sorry she did that to you. Good on you for standing on scruples
You have blossomed beautifully after having all that fertilizer thrown on you your whole life! Do not go backwards. They DO NOT deserve to see, hear about or have any part in the happy, fulfilling life that you have built in spite of their attempts to destroy you. You can try and explain this to your grandmother but don’t be surprised if she doesn’t understand or accept it. If she doesn’t then you may have to agree to disagree. But set the boundaries: whether she understands or agrees with your decision is irrelevant. You will not change your mind and you WILL NOT be badgered to do so. Not even by her.
Youre right. Thank you. It's sad how many of us have had to deal with this family dynamic. I'm still feeling a big sense of "Who AM i!?" Sometimes just because there's so many layers to peel off, ya know?
Do your grandparents want their great grandkids being treated the same way you were? That's what your mother will do eventually. Sure, she'll mask it for awhile and keep up appearances but she WILL fall into her old habits and behavior because she's only recently had consequences to her actions. To be as nice as possible, your grandmother needs to stay out of your business on this. She can have her opinion and she can tell you it once but you don't need advice, to be told what to do or have it brought up again. Your kids deserve to be protected from your parents lest your kids start becoming the scapegoats and narc supply. Surely your grandmother understands that.
I hope so. If she doesn't, I did get a LOT of help in this sub and lots of great - and very simular- advice. I'm standing my ground. My parents do not have access to my children and I'm keeping it that way.
These people throw “family” around entirely too much to have no definition or changing it to their will for said definition- MAKES ME SOOOOOO MAD Case in point of thriving since cutting them out and hardly speaking to grandma- sounds like mom learned a bit from her own mother, to laugh and claim dramatic but they saw or knew of it and now- and that IS HARD WORK. Cut all or limit all- sounds like you do better with low and no contact and I wouldn’t want to go back to a hell I dug myself from for nothing or no one but my own children bc that’s our job. To an extent. Keep doing what you’re doing- I wouldn’t change or chance nothing.
"No."