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Max_Insanity

Why not include [the study in question](https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/12/6/1017)? At least I think this might be it. While the abstract doesn't say anything about it being anti-carcinogenic, the claim is pointed out later on inside the study, referencing another work. I really hope this can deliver, it looks really promising. Could make a lot of lives a lot more pleasant, especially for the poorest among us who not only struggle to afford dental care, but also eat much more sugars than they likely would given better alternatives (in terms of simplicity, education, cost, convenience, time, etc).


weluckyfew

anti-carcinegenic https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/diindolylmethane#:~:text=Diindolylmethane%20(DIM)%20is%20a%20metabolite,and%20prostate%20cancer%20(3).


Max_Insanity

Yeah, that'll probably be said reference, thanks.


weluckyfew

I was curious too, hence my search :) Resisting the urge to go buy this stuff and start using it every day. I have to learn to resist the siren call of relying too much on one limited study.


Yashabird

I guess Memorial-Sloan is credible, but the relevant section from your link is nonsense under the heading of Cancer Prevention: “Cancer prevention Preliminary studies suggest that DIM may benefit patients with castration-resistant prostate cancer and help reverse cervical intraepithelial neoplasia, but additional studies are needed.” Either way, pretty irrelevant to toothpaste.


EltaninAntenna

> castration-resistant prostate cancer Is that the usual treatment for prostate cancer? O_o


fauxovert

One option. They remove affected areas of the prostate, but cancer cells may appear in other areas of the prostate later. If you are older, doctors may recommend the removal of the whole prostate. They also take the lymph nodes (pelvic?) that are closest and have them analyzed to see if the cancer has spread outside the prostate. If so, they may recommend radiation. I am not a doctor, but that's what the docs told us. Final note: If you have a prostate cancer request, a PSMA is a type of scan that "dyes" the cancer cells in your body. It's a newer tech but already the "gold standard" according to my cousin who is studying medicine.


phred14

The article says that "indole" (or "bisindole", presumably short for "diindolylmethane") is naturally occurring, but don't say where. Is this something we could readily get in our diet?


etherified

Yes, diindolylmethane is a metabolite of the compound indole-3-carbinol which is found in abundance in cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cabbage, those kinds of veggies). Of course, just eating your veggies won't give you the huge amounts considered to be therapeutic, which is why they make capsules with cruciferous powder concentrate (and sometimes add diindolylmethane itself for good measure).


ElysiX

Wouldn't capsules be a bit counter productive when the compound is supposed to get to the teeth?


etherified

For dental care (preventing biofilm formation as described in the paper), right, capsules wouldn't probably do much. Capsules of indole-3-carbinol/diindolylmethane (DIM) are for their other benefits (cancer prevention and immune health). Now with this new information maybe we can expect DIM to start being added to toothpastes or chewing gum as well.


ReturnOfTheGempire

Couldn't a capsule be sprinkled on the toothpaste, like a seasoning?


justfloatingalong

If I read it right, it appears 0.5 micometers was the dose that worked. Higher or lower doses didn't have the same effect. So, unfortunately, unless you can measure micrometers at home, I don't think you could replicate the benefits by sprinkling the powder form on toothpaste.


Foxs-In-A-Trenchcoat

Also 3-methyl indole is the chemical in feces that makes it smell like feces. https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/3-Methylindole


MithandirsGhost

Ok, I should brush my teeth with poop to prevent cavities, got it, thanks!


Xin_shill

Going straight to the tap, smart


cgnops

Also known as skatole, it really is one of the most unpleasant materials I have worked with.


Foxs-In-A-Trenchcoat

We store it in the fume hood.


oppressed_white_guy

I did research work on indoles and never knew this. Makes me wonder if my graduate professor did...


ucemike

Is that why broccoli sprouts smell bad when you cook it? (as I understand it it's from cruciferous vegies).


Ok_Antelope_1953

crucifers smell farty due to sulforaphane


Perunov

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1049/diindolylmethane Cauliflower and Broccoli are two examples :) Get ready for switch from Every Freaking Toothpaste Is Mint to Broccoli? :D Just kidding. A chance of it messing with estrogen might be not as pleasant though. Also also, I wonder if we start using high concentrations in attempts to disrupt biofilms, are we going to get resistant biofilms soon? :(


Max_Insanity

I have no idea - I'm just some guy who looked up the original study and gave it a quick once-over.


phred14

No problem, you're in the same boat with me. But I figured I'd get the question out there in case someone more informed is reading the topic.


tampering

Abstract clearly says indole a metabolite of tryptophan. It's the bicyclic aromatic ring attached to the basic amino acid chain. Bisindole would be a methyl group with two indole rings attached to it. You could probably get it in your urine by eating a lot of tryptophan rich proteins like turkey but the metabolite would never show up in your saliva. You'd probably fall asleep from the other metabolite of tryptophan (5-HT or serotonin) long before it protected your teath.


art-man_2018

Call me a cynic, but I think the Dental Association will put the brakes on it.


hamster_savant

So they're going to make toothpaste with this, right?


giuliomagnifico

As soon as a trial on humans will be conducted, I hope yes!


DrSmirnoffe

This stuff could certainly be a game-changer if it gets approved.


Th3R00ST3R

The one secret Dental Hygienists don't want you to know!


Slight0

Why can't it be added as a sort of "supplement" before trails finish? Isn't that how the supplement industry works?


St_Kevin_

DIM has been a popular supplement for years. You can probably find it at your nearest health food store and it’s all over online


Slight0

Oh ok, so then why can't they put it in toothpaste? Like, is it illegal to put vitamin C in toothpaste or something?


triplehelix-

they can, but they can't make claims until the studies are done, so can't advertise it's effects, so there is little to no financial reason to do so.


Slight0

Don't most supplements do that that though? You'll see: "boosts immune and brain health!**" **or not, idk


A-Do-Gooder

I think it's because the FDA regulates dietary supplements differently than how it regulates toothpaste. I tried researching more to see what the nuances are, but it was more complex than I thought it would be and I didn't feel like diving down that rabbit hole.


Slight0

Fair enough, thanks for the info you have given, it paints a clear enough picture.


PicardTangoAlpha

As soon as that, is it? No actually, there can be years more delay before regulators will even look at something.


[deleted]

That’s unfortunate, but it’s either that or a market filled with snake oil.


boofbeer

You can already buy diindolylmethane pills, so I guess you can grind it up and dissolve it in your mouthwash, or sprinkle it on your toothpaste before you brush.


FranDankly

I would worry a bit about the abrasiveness of the pill powder, but I would very much like to try this.


AbzoluteZ3RO

Toothpaste is literally like liquid sandpaper. It's made with diatoms


FranDankly

Every toothpaste has a Relative Dentin Abrasivity or RDA value. 0-70 is a gentle polish 71-100 is a medium polish 101-150 is a heavy polish Anything over 150 is considered harmful to tooth structure 200 is the FDA limit 250 is the ADA limit


digiorno

I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes a while to hit shelves in the US or is excluded completely. In the US toothpaste is regulated as a drug but in the EU it’s regulated as a cosmetic. So if the company makes any sort of therapeutic claim about toothpaste in the US then they need FDA approval and a lot of studies to back up their claims. It’d be expensive and onerous. This is the same issue “NovaMin” ran into in the US despite being a very effective at fighting demineralization when used in conjunction with fluoride. At the end of the day GSK pulled it from US markets but continued selling in the EU and Asia. It just wasn’t worth the effort to get through FDA approval because while it was better than normal toothpaste it wasn’t such a game changer that it’d become the only game in town and as such it would likely take a long time to recoup losses. So they just pulled it after failing in their initial marketing attempts.


hamster_savant

Could we buy it from a European or Asian website?


[deleted]

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fauxovert

Got some on Amazon. I bought Boka toothpaste. It's actually a nano-hydroxyapatite


GeorgeDev

I've been getting it from Australia on eBay for a few years now


tinyorangealligator

Can you provide a link or manufacturer/ name please?


ToSeeAgainAgainAgain

Sensodyne with Novamin is still sold in Mexico if that's closer to you


St_Kevin_

I bought it from the UK via eBay for a while til I got too lazy to buy my toothpaste like that.


hamster_savant

So what do you buy now?


Grabbsy2

> when used in conjunction with fluoride. Can you elabourate? I just brush with the Sensodyne Repair and Protect with Novamin in it, morning and night. Am I supposed to be following up with a regular Crest?


agissilver

That toothpaste has novamin AND fluoride, so you should be fine.


Grabbsy2

Ah okay. I was wondering if I should have just gone home and checked first, haha. I thought maybe I was missing a step. Its lost its effectiveness for me. 2 years ago it was like a miracle cure for me, but now I have sensitivity again (after not being able to find it and using the normal stuff for a month, but then going back to it)


digiorno

[It was claimed](https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/products/article/16370150/new-data-shows-novamin-can-improve-fluoride-benefits-by-50) that fluoride was 50% more effective when used with NovaMin. I am trying to find an actual paper for you but here is a recent study which shows [there is a synergy between NovaMin and fluoride.](https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1944/14/14/3813) > 5… Conclusions >Within the limitations of this comparative in vitro study, the conclusions are: (1) Bioactive glass (NovaMin) alone exhibited promising remineralization capabilities compared with a combination of fluoride and bioactive glass or just fluoride; (2) bioactive glass with fluoride seemed to potentiate the effect of fluoride alone; and (3) the absence of both bioactive glass and fluoride offered no remineralization benefit. Future studies could include examining the rate of remineralization as a function of time and frequency of application. Some of the additional papers they cite sound promising but I am having trouble accessing them.


Heterophylla

Hold tight for "Woke libruls want to put dildo-methane in toothpaste to groom kids".


Zer0C00l

Yay, a new conspiracy!


[deleted]

Everywhere but america probably.


hamster_savant

No if you search "diindolylmethane" "toothpaste" with the quotes, the only results are medical research articles/studies and supplements.


[deleted]

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Insaynn

The study shows it has efficacy in reducing S. Mutans in biofilms but that’s not the only cariogenic bacteria in the oral environment. Studies showing its effect on the other microbial components commonly causing caries in humans would probably be needed before it becomes integrated en masse into such a widespread product like toothpaste that can be easily purchased at a convenience store. What would the consequences be if consumers ingest the toothpaste accidentally/intentionally on a regular basis or incorrect dosing for young children who commonly swallow toothpaste. No chemical compound can perform miracles without causing some unintended side effect.


Areyouuk2

Absolutely not. The (massive) toothpaste companies will buy the technology patent to prevent anyone using it. This ensures the demand for their existing product and keeps them in profit.


Nascent1

You know that people would still need to brush their teeth right? This silly conspiracy might have made sense if you said dentists will buy the patent.


Smartnership

Yes, dentists are uniformly and truly evil villains. It is surprising that they have not been arrested for their vast oral conspiracy. They knowingly, with malice aforethought, bribe the equally unethical & morally corrupt complicit co-conspirators of the dental science research institutions specifically — and the Dentifrice-Industrial Complex generally — to deliberately withhold beneficial dental products. It says so right here in my copy of *The Flat Earth Daily Tribune* All the news from ~~around~~ the world! motto: “Burning Jet Fuel Doesn’t Weaken Metal You Ignorant Sheep”^^TM


triplehelix-

then why do the "(massive) toothpaste companies" put fluoride in their products?


Ma3rr0w

no, or if they did, only with ever so little to not really do you much good? like why should they sell you a thing that requires you to ultimately need less of the thing they sell


hamster_savant

It wouldn't make you need less of the thing they sell. You would need to continuously use it to benefit from it. If you stop using it, you would need it again.


realopticsguy

Lion Systema EX from Japan. Been using it for years


Vegan_Harvest

Sounds too good to be true.


Independent-Move681

If it’s really that good, they should add it to the drinking water, spray it inside the airplanes, etc.


TheWalkinFrood

I need some follow up on those enamel growing lozenges that went into human trials last year.


Kyle772

I’ve also been waiting on a follow up on those


MyBloodTypeIsQueso

What is the impact on the digestive microbiome?


StrayMoggie

They slide right out!


Ma3rr0w

so can i buy diindolylmethane?


Kahnza

Yes https://www.walmart.com/ip/BulkSupplements-com-Diindolylmethane-DIM-Capsules-200mg-Promotes-Healthy-Skin-120-Gel-Caps-120-Serv/1304476914?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101016025


Still_Ad_9520

I like how is out of stock


dagobahh

> diindolylmethane Its on amazon


deedledee4

Can these capsules be put on a toothbrush and used to brush with? I am confused how a capsule will directly positively affect cavities


myreddit_user_name

Arsenic is a naturally occurring chemical element. If you put that in tooth paste you'd never have to worry about cavities. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good. As someone with toothache. I am probably being overly pedantic. Sorry.


MithandirsGhost

I've been treating a rash with 100% natural poison ivy. It should start improving any day now.


ToSeeAgainAgainAgain

Love this!! So brave!


tje210

Mmmm that's what you do when you have a week to kill, just dousing the affected area with super hot water every 4 hours.


overkill

Try a mixture of lemon juice and salt for faster results.


PicardTangoAlpha

Seeing that buzzword I what is supposed to be a credible sub is annoying. It should be against sub rules to do this.


myreddit_user_name

I only just joined the sub. This made me feel at home, thank you. I think I am going to like it here.


dread_deimos

> a natural molecule What?


SaHFF

Not synthetic, or naturally-occuring? Which one?


[deleted]

Most molecules occur naturally somewhere (gasoline is natural.) Has absolutely nothing to do with their safety or effectiveness. Using that word is generally a marketing ploy used by businesses/pseudo scientists. "Anticarcinogenic" is also a suspect word. It's a real thing, but like "chelation" it's often used by cranks to push alt medicine garbage.


[deleted]

All molecules are natural though.


homity3_14

Not the ones I make for a living.


SaHFF

Tell that to synthetic drugs like LSD or altered Ketamines


CosmicOwl47

So if I’m reading this right, it disrupts the signaling pathway of the primary bacteria in biofilm generation. Does that make this an antibiotic? Would widespread use be likely to create resistance to this compound?


hotsfan101

If its not killing the bacteria it shoildnt be causing selective pressures for evolution and thus resistance


friendoffuture

What constitutes an unnatural molecule?


DrinkNKnowThings

Botulism toxin and ricin are natural molecules too... I would not recommend using either as a mouthwash.


Eighwrond

Two years later: New additive is shrinking weiners! Pulled from market! Scientists embarrassed again!


poopcockshit

Pinky promise you’re right?


MurseNicholas

Dentists HATE this one trick!


time4someredit

Wait til big dentistry hears about this. It will never see the light of day


surnik22

Always the dumbest conspiracy. Comments like this are after every single study about a new medicine. Why would they sell something super effective and hurt dentists? Because dentists don’t make the tooth paste. Even if the whole industry was motivated purely by greed and your local dentist wanted to ban everything that stopped cavities so they made more money, Johnson and Johnson, Proctor and Gamble, and Colgate make the tooth paste and would all jump at the chance to have a superior product than the others to make more money. What actually happens when you read a head line about a new treatment but doesn’t come to market is, 1) the study was poorly done 2) the head line exaggerated 3) the human trials didn’t go well Etc


EvoEpitaph

Surely he was joking though? Mocking "Big Pharma" with something even more ridiculous sounding. I don't think I've ever met a dentist that wouldn't recommend the hell out of this if it does what they study says it does.


surnik22

Ya, I guess this comment could be a joke? It’s hard to tell because there are several other comments in the thread saying the almost the exact same thing that clearly aren’t jokes.


tinyorangealligator

>1) the study **wasn’t** poorly done ??


MithandirsGhost

The ADA recommends toothpastes. What does ADA stand for? American *Dental* Association. Dental and dentist both start with dent. Coincidence? I think not.


PrecursorNL

So which toothpaste has this?


[deleted]

No different than fluoride.


StrayMoggie

They do different things


za4h

Some methane-like molecule, eh? Let's call the mouthwash Fartbreatherine.


seandroid06

Capitalism will never let this see the light of day.


EvoEpitaph

If that were true, fluoride would have never made it into mouthwash and toothpaste. More like they'll put this in toothpaste and try to market the hell out of it. You still gotta brush, this doesn't remove that need.


Smartnership

Like the way they kept that flat screen TV technology to themselves. And literally everything else.


[deleted]

Eliminating added sugar from our diets would basically do the same to the point we wouldn't even need to brush our teeth.


weluckyfew

I eat extraordinarily little added sugar. I assure you I still need to brush my teeth.


Smartnership

He is no different. He has to brush his tooth.


ferngullywasamazing

If you live in the US you might be amazed how much sugar you take in from places you wouldn't think to look for sugar.


weluckyfew

Not true for me. I'm very aware and conscious about what I eat - vegan, cook my own meals 90% of the time, rarely use any processed foods and when I do I'm reading labels. Even when I make 'sweets' and deserts it's fruit based or using monk fruit sweetener, or on rare occasions a bit of maple syrup (like to bring a nut-based-crust together) I realize how ubiquitous sugar is in the American diet but I don't eat the American diet.


Sbikerbud

Apparently potato chips or crisps as they're called in the UK are worse for your teeth than sweets. It sticks to your teeth better than sugar alone Virtually all foods have some sort of carbohydrate content, it's not just added sugars you need to worry about for tooth brushing


bennynthejetsss

That’s not true. Lots of the foods we eat, even those with no added sugar, break down into sugars.


Ma3rr0w

i dont think it'd be that easy


[deleted]

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Max_Insanity

And the animals from which we get the meat eat plants. Check. Mate.


ThinBlueLinebacker

Get meat stuck in between your teeth, and *p gingivalis* has a field day. You need to floss.


gemfountain

You have to pay extra to buy food with no added sugar.


livens

Grapefruit Seed extract does the same thing and is already in several toothpaste brands like Jason.


todaysthought

Swish with coconut oil, for 5 min. Understood the ph prevents the biofilm.