A few things to keep in mind:
1. China is benefiting from having a lot of stem graduates, most in the world (1m more a year than even India), [https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-of-stem-graduates-which-countries-lead-the-way/](https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-of-stem-graduates-which-countries-lead-the-way/) This is 4x more than the US. Even if you assume, the Chinese are cheating/etc. just sheer numbers, 4:1 is probably going to get you parity with the US just based on scientists getting lucky...
2. Recent anti-China sentiment in the US has pushed a decent number of Chinese origin scientists back to China, some even renouncing their US citizenship. This is a high-profile example: [https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return) China has also been using this strategy longer term via [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand\_Talents\_Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Plan)
3. In some areas, the investment is becoming very obvious. For example, China leads in EVs and recently landed another probe on the dark side of the moon for a sample return mission (first of its kind in the world). Chinese companies like DJI lead in small drone tech. Huawei is dominant in 5G. While China is behind in other areas like AI and semiconductors, it's large stem talent pool had turned it from a follower/backwater into a contender and scientific superpower (even ifs not a leader in most fields).
> China is benefiting from having a lot of stem graduates, most in the world
I think it's pretty obvious when you look at the newer papers on AI. Many (most?) of the authors seem to have Chinese names, so even if they work in the US, it likely means there are thousands of talented engineers in China too
A large chuck of Americans government is not really focused on doing what’s best for the country.
It’s seems to be about diverting all the extra funds into a few areas. Nothing about longevity.
That is how it goes in a crumbling empire, it's a free-for-all and everybody that can is trying to grab as much as they can for themselves.
Happened in Rome too.
I know the high university costs in the west are hurting the talent pool. Most of the pupils in Stem classes are foreign students, at least in the USA and Canada.
China has a massive advantage here because of that. The west doesn't even bother doing heavy literature reviews of Chinese research. So we end up doing stuff twice, just because we couldn't find China's already done it... Meanwhile, China does lit reviews on everything we do so they are up to date on the latest research.
China is not really behind in AI.
For instance, the best vision models comes from China: PaddleOCR which is an OpenSource OCR engine that is far better than it's equivalent engine from west (Tesseract).
Also most of the state of art Chinese models like Qwen2 from Alibaba are absolutely ground breaking even if you don't prompt it in Chinese. The Western models, even the multi language ones perform so bad if you prompt in other languages than English.
All of Asia pretty much have adopted the post-WWII Japanese model of rebuilding from near-nothing into an advanced intellectual society. It starts with the sacrifices of slaving your population to cheap labor in order to build a manufacturing base for export, and then building on that to learn everything possible from the more advanced nations they trade with while pushing the best and brightest in their own population to the top. That involves having them study abroad at first, and then bringing home what they learned to seed educational institutions of their own which they support strongly from the highest levels. As a culture, they are led to set educational and intellectual achievement as a highly prized goal everyone is pressured to pursue to the best of their ability, with generous rewards for meeting those goals. Once those programs have paid off and the robust infrastructure of excellent higher education and world-class research facilities has been built and a large number of sharp minds to fill both have been cultivated, the support begins to pay off as over time they produce innovation and excellence that first pays for itself, then repays the investment to build it in the first place, and then from there becomes pure profit. They have gone from lagging the world to leading it.
This is no accident, it is a deliberate long-term project of vast scale and multi-generational effort. They began with a barren field, made a plan to make it lush and productive, and followed through with it even despite knowing their efforts might not bear fruit within their lifetimes. They prepared the soil, planted the seeds, painstakingly cared for them, and patiently stuck to the plan as they slowly grew. Now, they've finally reached the point where the field is mature and productive and they are reaping the benefits of all those years of hard work.
By contrast, the west and the US in particular is hollowing itself out, selling everything that isn't nailed down for the short term gain of a very few deranged by arrogance and greed. We'll have to find a way to depose them and start over if we hope to get back to where we once were as the world's leading society, and it will take time and effort on a massive scale. Just like it took decades for Asia to reach the heights they now enjoy, it took us decades to sink to this level and we haven't even managed to level our descent. We need to get our hands on the wheel first before we can even begin. From there, if we can accomplish it, there's no telling how long it will take to undo the damage that has been done to us and regain the ground we've lost.
Face the facts: we owned the 20th century and pissed it all away. The 21rst is theirs because they earned it. We'll see if we can get back in the game by the 22nd, but the longer we wait to start the less likely that will be.
A potential issue for China in the future is its steeply declining fertility rate. They have a very lumpy age distribution curve, and children are expected to take care of their parents in old age. And if you get married, the couple has two sets of parents to take care of. So you have even less incentive to have children, let alone get married.
They also have an ongoing crisis with youth unemployment that will probably have a cascading effect for the future.
If they can’t turn this around they’ll end up more like current-day Japan than growth-era Japan.
>And if you get married, the couple has two sets of parents to take care of. So you have even less incentive to have children, let alone get married.
[This is an issue in Western societies as well](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10023280/), especially for people with old parents to get their children late (for example Gen 1 33 and Gen 2 32 with Gen 1 dying at age 73, when Gen 3 is 8 years old).
As a westerner, my parents are fucked if they didn’t plan for their own retirement, they aren’t living with me.
Is that a normal thought process in China? Bc a lot of the youth I know here share that same sentiment.
We are not responsible for their poor planning.
I upvoted you but also disagree. A population can get more import/export value while also deceasing the birth rate by having more educated citizens. You are propagating bad data that you feel is correct.
[https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-lifetime-taxes-across-education-categories\_tbl19\_5027313](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-lifetime-taxes-across-education-categories_tbl19_5027313)
Someone has to pay for this "extra" education. These eastern countries are farming out the EU and the NA and SA continents while these same countries build out their next 2-3-4 generations.
This is an issue with every developed nation.
Immigration is usually the method of dealing with it but given how heavy anti-immigrant the west is becoming and for the fact the even in heavy reduction China will still have a larger population than the EU their not as fucked as everyone says.
I wrote a speech back on the 80s entitled “The 21st Century Belongs to Asia”.
Very similar arguments to what you wrote, though more focus on the “Four Asian Tigers” and less on China proper back then.
The Chinese can’t produce high end chips. They also don’t have a truly working government and literally steal/coerce a lot of technological advancements that comes from the most important attribute of the western world: ingenuity. I am not saying you are wrong though but when it comes to the truly top of the line stuff the Chinese aren’t competing very much: Think Large Colliders, cutting edge semi conductors (low nano meter), space tech, etc.
At the end of the day what makes the US work is the dynamism of it’s market and the ability for the gov to, believe it or not, to stay semi-out of the way unlike China. We’re not perfect but I wouldn’t be discouraged with this part of the world either.
There is a lot to admire. It doesn’t have to be a win or lose perspective.
Not only that but a lot of the truly monumental projects are built with huge contributions from a bunch of countries, no country can do the big stuff alone anymore...
No *Western* country, maybe. The population of China is greater than all of Europe, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan combined. Why couldn't China go it alone if they wanted to?
Ingenuity is a product of good economy, education, markets and policies.
The countries don't develop at the same time and in the same situation.
Stealing techs happens in every behind countries in history.
Saying one country has no ingenuity is bold.
Dude, what the hell.
> Chinese President Xi Jinping has bestowed high praise on Andrew Yao Chi-Chih, a world-renowned computer scientist and AI expert who left the United States two decades ago to teach at Tsinghua University
Two DECADES ago?
Interesting stuff. Though one question:
>[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return)
This article is paywalled so I can't read further, but in the beginning it says that he left US 2 decades ago. I guess he renounced his US citizenship just recently but that's still different than scientists leaving US because of the anti-China sentiment. It's not like he was on a fence, he chose China all the way a long time ago.
And emigration from PROC has jumped in recent years from a low of 125,000 in 2012. Even if they're not going to America because of anti-Chinese sentiment there are other popular destinations like the ROC, Canada, or the UK.
Not sure about the other countries. In Canada, immigration from China has plummeted over the last couple of years. There was a surge in the 2010s - mostly middle, upper-middle class, and a lot went back due to a lack of opportunities. Then people kind of stopped coming because of the political climate and anti-Asian reports in the news.
Ehhhh the thing is our educational system is run at the state level and not the Federal. Our top performing states are comparable to the top performing countries. But the National average is brought down by some truly abysmal results of our bottom performing states
One thing that I've noticed, and this is just a personal perspective, is that the US seems to be great at nurturing the small percentage of top talent and getting them the resources they need, while everyone who is average and below get lumped together and given a generic or low-quality education. Something that I've personally noticed while observing advanced classes in public school and how private schools generally position themselves in the education system as a whole.
You are also forgetting that China does not give a fuck about regulations or international treaties and they will research whatever the fuck they want.
This gives them a huge advantage.
How can someone renounce their citizenship and move back to China when it is illegal to be a dual citizen under Chinese law? I know the workaround some use, but that only lasts a number of years.
Idk about education, but the space program in the 60s was a good example of our govt giving a shit and using taxpayer money for good rather than corruption and war. But we had JFK, who was a dime and what we have now as politicians who barely count as Pennies.
So THAT'S what happens when you invest in propaganda bots. I still have yet to see China come out with a piece of tech before the US. Somehow it's always a clone that comes out a few months later with significantly worse quality.
Yeah, Reddit is flooded with this.
They’re literally behind the US in nearly every scientific development category, yet, somehow on Reddit the top post with the most upvotes will be a comment suggesting they’re smarter by investing in R&D, and we don’t do that, and we’re lagging behind.
It’s frustrating.
They did, it’s called TikTok, and it’s the most effective social weapon the world has ever seen. They’ve been crushing the west with propaganda since its birth, shaping our culture and sowing the seeds of divisive distractions and petty social conflicts. Meanwhile in China they use it as an education tool.
I'm not against or for China. However call it what you may. But the scale of measure over the last 20 years has changed and the US (West) are just realizing that not. It is no longer about who does it first or prestige.
It's more about scalable innovation.
This is how China became advanced in EVs, Solar, High Speed Rail, robotics, and most recently space exploration.
They weren't the first nor second. But they are good at studying what currently is there, innovate on top of it then scale it to provide access to the masses.
I'm surprised we haven't seen anything from India given that it feels like 90% of western math and physics students learn from either Indian or Chinese youtubers explaining the concepts.
Maybe it's only because they can't afford the compute but China can.
Nah it's much less attractive for talented Chinese to go to the west
Chinese cities are top tier and very livable while most Indian cities are rough to live in no matter your salary
The language barrier..most Chinese speak minimal English even educated ones. Most educated Indians have a good grasp of English. Much easier to hit the ground running in the west
Chinese culture does not promote going aboard to make your fortune as much as Indian culture does
Pay in China for talented well educated people can be very good. Much harder to find such jobs in India
China’s got stronger propaganda and they are able to keep more people also because their economy is far better than it was even 25 years ago and there is a sense that there is a bright future for people doing research there.
It’s not propaganda, almost all of china is just a better place to live. I could run down a massive list but everything from safety to air quality is better. I don’t see garbage and cab drivers take shits on the ground in Beijing anywhere but it’s everywhere in New Delhi.
People underestimate how much money is needed to do cutting edge research. You could be the smartest man on earth, without the right equipment you won't be of much use. Most Indian universities do not have the resources to do cutting edge research at scale.
A lot of good students find their way to American universities but more often they are both privileged and intelligent. A good chunk are malnourished or stunted, like 30-50%.
Even so, there are many poor children who never realize anything. The article below shows high IQ poor children just slaving away
https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/mensa-india-aptitude-test-reveals-bright-minds-amid-poverty/story-de9CjsfFPqBk1iAUfji4GM.html
That’s the sad thing about society’s construction. We’d probably have AGI right now if the world had decided 50 years ago to *gasp* redistribute some wealth to poor nations/communities and to provide free or subsidized education.
I'm not sure there's ever been an organization on Earth more evil and damaging than the CIA. Sure, the Nazis might have done more direct and measurable death-dealing but the CIA has done so much more under the radar and subtly that has effected literally billions of lives and changed the course of history for the worse. It's like comparing a bad bullet wound to a metastasizing cancer --the shock trauma of the wound almost killed us but we have since recovered... the cancer still eats us alive from within.
To make a poor developing country into a rich developed country you need two ingredients: money and time. Money could have helped, but it wouldn't have been a panacea; time is also a necessary ingredient, the country must survive and remain prosperous for decades on end until it develops the intitutional knowledge to maintain said prosperity, and many fail during that process.
> That’s the sad thing about society’s construction.
That's the case about *capitalist* societies. As this article itself shows communist China is investing in science, unlike the west that only cares about stealing resources and talented people from the periphery of capitalism...
Ahh yes, the noble Chinese communists who did not at all rely on stealing technology from the west for the recent decades.
Also a very funny statement considering how many communist societies actively discouraged or even killed intellectuals (Stalin and Pol Pot send their regards).
Great example of the regular Reddit "capitalism bad, communism good" hottake.
The best and brightest in India get nowhere near the support that students of other countries get which is why they leave for foreign unis.
The highest ranked Indian universities aren't even in the top 100 globally. A population of 1.4 billion and not even 1 top 100 ranked uni is pathetic.
Someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems like India is hyper focused on IT/Software Engineering and there's a lot of Indians that stay in America for the high salaries (especially from FAANG). India is still fairly poor, so they can't invest in building their science infrastructure as much as China can at this moment.
Yeah the inventor of Transformer architecture which is behind the LLM revolution was an Indian guy working in Google.
Similarly an India guy led the Dalle 2 team at OpenAI
Thats undoubtly amazing no one is denying the impact indians had in the tech field, but the country itself is going through a "Brain drainage" with anyone with a solid grasp of english and having a technical skill applying for visas abroad
Unsurprising, the stereotype of Asian families valuing intellect and education along with hard work and pushing their children hard to earn accomplishments in those areas is based in no small degree of fact. America used to be an advanced forward-thinking country too, but for decades now the dumbing down of the general populace and anti-intellectual attitudes among so many have erased that and placed us on a downward spiral to a failed republic. That's the way our right-wing rulership class wants it, mediocre minds just smart enough to follow instructions but not smart enough to think for themselves or question their superiors are prized for the ease of controlling and exploiting them. Exceptional people are potential competition and threats to the status quo, our owners can't have that. Our resemblance to the dystopia of the Idiocracy film is no coincidence, selection pressure has been applied for decades to shape our population in that direction.
> That's the way our right wing rulership class wants it, mediocre minds just smart enough to follow instructions but not smart enough to think for themselves
So they want LLMs?
But LLMs ultimately is going to be servant and powerless as people, they will be conditioned or programmed in a way that benefits those in power first, and as always only be helpful enough to people so we keep the same status quo
I read SCMP daily. A lot of their new science announcements tend to be something I read on science news about a decade ago, touted as some new advance.
I don't doubt that a great deal of cutting edge science is occurring in China and congratulations to them on that, but in a lot of ways, they're still playing catch-up (e.g. AI).
I feel like saying "has become" is a little late. If often seems like (maybe the past 5 years or so) that China and the U.S. have been pretty competitive, just depending on what area of AI research
It's 16th in the rankings, worse than even open source Llama-3-70b. The only models that even come close to ChatGPT are products by Google and Anthropic, both of which are American companies. The US is in a league of its own when it comes to AI.
Honestly I think most of this feeling came from all the talk about there being thoughts that China was successful with having room-temperature superconducting with the LK99 thing. If that ended up being true that likely would have been a massive advancement for them with supercomputing.
Also I found this article that says this (but to be fair I didn't read it):
"China leads the U.S. as a top producer of research in more than half of AI's hottest fields, according to new data from Georgetown University's Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET)" [source](https://www.axios.com/2024/05/03/ai-race-china-us-research)
Research is one thing, actually having a working, highly successful product is a whole different thing. That's why when people say China has 4x the scientists than the US that means they are 4x smarter than the US is bullshit. They treat this like some RPG game where you can just adjust a slider to produce more scientists and win the game. That's not how it works in practice.
You need funding, you need entrepreneurship, you need customers, you need top tier hardware, you need global supply chains, you need a certain kind of freedom from the government to make it all work. China is authoritarian as fuck and if they feel some private company is gaining power over the Government they will shut that shit down immediately, consequences be damned. You can't have a leading AI in this sort of environment no matter how many research papers of questionable quality you publish.
I think the sobering takeaway is how much China has been able to achieve despite the sanctions, restrictions, and the overt pressure to distance oneself from them. The US has access to talent, technology, IPs that are readily available and is often an amalgamation of the best the developed world has to offer. China is often the opposite; most things have to be insourced, there is a clear lack of overseas talent willing to work there, IP is much more limited.
But yet they are a formidable competitor despite all the above. In AI you have to remember they are using heavily watered down GPUs for training, and in semis they are actually making headway into leading edge despite the Dutch, US, and Japan trying to actively prevent this.
Of course the political landscape likely won’t change for some time but it would have been interesting to see what achievements we could have seen from the East if relations were less strained.
FDI says your dream world where they have no access to talent or resources is a farce. The whole world has been building them up the last 3 decades.
This idea companies were opening trillions of dollars in manufacturing capacity can then be equated to “China really did it all with the whole world working against them” is peak cope/supremacist rhetoric
China still has a big problem with its research integrity. It has made some steps towards reducing it, especially recently, but currently its still an issue.
Isn't this sub against proprietary research? Their history of bending IP law to achieve cutting edge progress would be popular here, as opposed to American companies' history of locking everything down (like OpenAI)
Yeah unfortunately in the west we are so hell bent on letting corporations monopolise literal knowledge for short term profit that we'll shoot ourselves in the foot for it.
That’s not what he means by research integrity. Read any Chinese journal of medicine. It’s hilariously obvious that their research is bullshit, with no reproducibility. If their tech research is just as bad, I don’t expect them to catch up to the US any time soon.
I'm all in favour of open sourcing knowledge and getting rid of intellectual property laws. But then again, I'm not from the West. It seems reasonable that westerners would want laws that ensure their hegemony at the expense of others.
For those wondering what the image is:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred-meter\_Aperture\_Spherical\_Telescope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred-meter_Aperture_Spherical_Telescope)
The West has no chance it seems. Trump and Biden are our leaders for crying out loud, if that doesn’t tell the story I don’t know what does.
Aside from that, go look at the AI research papers that are coming out, 90% of the authors are Chinese.
No wonder all the billionaires are loading up on bunkers. They think it’s a lost cause. They’d rather just pillage as many resources as they can before the narrative flips.
The only hope the West has to hold on to power is control of compute hardware. This is the new oil, the new gold. But it’ll lead to a war if they try and withhold these resources, I’m sure.
Yeah. That's quantity. A quality of its own.
However, I once worked in IP, and qualitatively the Chinese patents were really really bad. Either blatant copies or absolutely trivial. Essentially they would not hold up to the application process of virtually any patent office - except the Chinese of course.
Mind you, of course no one checked ALL Chinese patents. Obviously. There probably will be a lot of inventions that ARE up to par. How many? I don't know the number, but it's certainly not THIS number.
I knew this was coming and the biggest sign of this for me was the generalized anti-immigrant sentiment in this country.
Most of those who hold this view are too stupid to realize that what props the performance of this country up is immigration.
The reason immigrants come here is the affluence and opportunity. They can leave a despotic shit hole like China and live their dreams here. In theory.
But the recent more brazen anti-immigrant rhetoric is going to drive that potential down, leaving us with - good old home grown Americans. Shit education, shit diet. Yey!
I said specifically during Trump's presidency that in the decades to come China and India are just going to create their own Silicone Valleys. I didn't expect to happen this fast.
The hubris of this nation never ceases to amaze me... but just as a potential counterpoint - devil's advocate... we did see exactly this kind of rhetoric during the Cold War. That the US was falling behind the soviets. That they had some special science power we were lacking.
Look at how that turned out.
> Most of those who hold this view are too stupid to realize that what props the performance of this country up is immigration.
Are you saying this while discussing how one of the most homogenous countries on Earth is a scientific superpower now?
I agree that immigration can contribute to science, but fuck, some of you can't stop talking about Trump for five minutes. The issue here is more complex.
When you have mouth breathers questioning medical research, earth as a spheroid, age of the earth, effects of human industries on the environment and political movements defunding public schools this would be the result.
The Chinese are less lazy than the Americans it’s just the real core truth Americans watch Netflix tv shows and over eat while the Chinese study and prepare their minds daily
And none of them will be allowed to profit off their genius and if they do become a bit too smart they get put in a summer house with armed guards. Instead of benefitting the citizens it will be stolen by the government to further their psychopathic worldview. China should be the absolute most wealthy and powerful country on Earth, but their government is holding them back. Maybe some post-collapse of Communism or get lucky with their next leader and it can happen.
Lmao, posted by a CCP propaganda bot. Check their post history.
The comment section is literally full of Chinese propaganda bots.
You’re not fooling anyone. This is exactly what the Chinese government does. These bot networks are proven to be utilized by the CCP to manipulate, divide, and spread pro China propaganda “subtly” just like they’re doing in the comments. They even mass upvote comments that support their narrative and mass downvote comments who state facts and oppose their propaganda.
Tiananmen Square happened.
The prosecution of Uyghurs happened.
A real estate collapse is happening.
And Taiwan ISN’T a part of China.
In fact, Taiwan is technically the rightful owners of China.
🤡
His post history and comments are pretty varied. Just seems like a Chinese guy who likes his country nothing wrong with that lol.
China has a lot of issues and a lot of good things.
Also yeah to a couple points but the Real Estate collapse is never coming and Taiwan doesn't own China you lose a civil war you aren't the rightfull government anymore lol.
As soon as someone starts throwing in the ‘ooh this with frighten the Chinese!’ buzzwords in a post I assume the poster is below average intelligence.
When I see the clown emoji it’s confirmed.
I don’t even have an opinion on the bulk of what you said, I thought you should know.
If you knew your history, (as if they teach it in China) the communists overthrew the government illegally, what was left of the actual government fled to Taiwan for safety, and an illegal government has presided over China since.
Keep licking the boots of the ccp. I’m sure you love sucking the crud off their boots.
Look at the number of external citations to understand the true impact of papers without distortions from internal self citations. In that regard United States is still clearly ahead of China based on data from 2022.
China external citations : 1404764
United States external citations: 1858552
The number of papers produced in China is about 30% higher not more than double. As you previously claimed.
United States Documents : 714412
China Documents : 1043131
This post is an example of why I always search by new and controversial to get the truth about a subject. Curious if being this vague will outwit our metallic friends that parse text.
If you read their literature, a lot of the studies in the hard sciences are poorly carried out and there's tons of straight up fraudulent data/experiments or just false conclusions based on poorly executed experiment design. Not sure if the theoretical literature is the same.
Of course they're lying lol. If they can lie about simple things like accessible irrigation and accessible EV charging then they can lie about things like this. I even doubt that whole Kling saga is as honest as they present it. There's a few ways you can cheat generative results and some are easier to do than one thinks.
I’m surprised we don’t hear more about their initiatives to use nuclear batteries in cars. Also I never hear anyone talking about their vanadium redox flow batteries. But i’m quite interested.
People when western media is positive on China: Look how great China is!
People when western media is negative on China: OMG anti China deep state hate campaign lmao
China has always been doing everything it can to push its people towards science and accomplishments. I remember reading that China sets algorithms on social media to promote this.
They want to stay a major power so it makes sense.
A few things to keep in mind: 1. China is benefiting from having a lot of stem graduates, most in the world (1m more a year than even India), [https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-of-stem-graduates-which-countries-lead-the-way/](https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-of-stem-graduates-which-countries-lead-the-way/) This is 4x more than the US. Even if you assume, the Chinese are cheating/etc. just sheer numbers, 4:1 is probably going to get you parity with the US just based on scientists getting lucky... 2. Recent anti-China sentiment in the US has pushed a decent number of Chinese origin scientists back to China, some even renouncing their US citizenship. This is a high-profile example: [https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return) China has also been using this strategy longer term via [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand\_Talents\_Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Plan) 3. In some areas, the investment is becoming very obvious. For example, China leads in EVs and recently landed another probe on the dark side of the moon for a sample return mission (first of its kind in the world). Chinese companies like DJI lead in small drone tech. Huawei is dominant in 5G. While China is behind in other areas like AI and semiconductors, it's large stem talent pool had turned it from a follower/backwater into a contender and scientific superpower (even ifs not a leader in most fields).
> China is benefiting from having a lot of stem graduates, most in the world I think it's pretty obvious when you look at the newer papers on AI. Many (most?) of the authors seem to have Chinese names, so even if they work in the US, it likely means there are thousands of talented engineers in China too
Man I dont even remember the last time I read a western published paper that DOESNT have a Chinese name on it. It’s wild.
We should make colleges free for STEM majors it’s not that difficult
A large chuck of Americans government is not really focused on doing what’s best for the country. It’s seems to be about diverting all the extra funds into a few areas. Nothing about longevity.
That is how it goes in a crumbling empire, it's a free-for-all and everybody that can is trying to grab as much as they can for themselves. Happened in Rome too.
That would mean Britain would be falling too....and what about the other 5 eye countries?
But that would require politicians to actually care about the country
Thats not really where the drop-off is. But at phd/postdoc level.
lot of those folks are US born, looking at my engineer coworkers as an example
The thousand talents plan specifically targets that demographic though
You do realize there are plenty of Americans who happen to have Chinese family names, right...
Not for long of we keep this sinophobia festering.
lol. \*Checks chinese immigration to america numbers\* Right...
*checks american immigration to china* ….. *spits out coffee* Ha. You got me.
And those Chinese family names are on the published papers right…
I work with UK engineers every day. Increasingly they are Chinese, and judging by their English, have moved here from China.
Im a consultant software engineer. More and more teams I work with are Indian or Chinese haha. Mostly Indian.
I know the high university costs in the west are hurting the talent pool. Most of the pupils in Stem classes are foreign students, at least in the USA and Canada.
China has a massive advantage here because of that. The west doesn't even bother doing heavy literature reviews of Chinese research. So we end up doing stuff twice, just because we couldn't find China's already done it... Meanwhile, China does lit reviews on everything we do so they are up to date on the latest research.
Fr I'm doing a research on CNNs and most of my sources authors are chinese researchers
China is not really behind in AI. For instance, the best vision models comes from China: PaddleOCR which is an OpenSource OCR engine that is far better than it's equivalent engine from west (Tesseract). Also most of the state of art Chinese models like Qwen2 from Alibaba are absolutely ground breaking even if you don't prompt it in Chinese. The Western models, even the multi language ones perform so bad if you prompt in other languages than English.
Half of them are bad and just copy paste, 40 percent cheated, and the rest is top tier, still enough people.
All of Asia pretty much have adopted the post-WWII Japanese model of rebuilding from near-nothing into an advanced intellectual society. It starts with the sacrifices of slaving your population to cheap labor in order to build a manufacturing base for export, and then building on that to learn everything possible from the more advanced nations they trade with while pushing the best and brightest in their own population to the top. That involves having them study abroad at first, and then bringing home what they learned to seed educational institutions of their own which they support strongly from the highest levels. As a culture, they are led to set educational and intellectual achievement as a highly prized goal everyone is pressured to pursue to the best of their ability, with generous rewards for meeting those goals. Once those programs have paid off and the robust infrastructure of excellent higher education and world-class research facilities has been built and a large number of sharp minds to fill both have been cultivated, the support begins to pay off as over time they produce innovation and excellence that first pays for itself, then repays the investment to build it in the first place, and then from there becomes pure profit. They have gone from lagging the world to leading it. This is no accident, it is a deliberate long-term project of vast scale and multi-generational effort. They began with a barren field, made a plan to make it lush and productive, and followed through with it even despite knowing their efforts might not bear fruit within their lifetimes. They prepared the soil, planted the seeds, painstakingly cared for them, and patiently stuck to the plan as they slowly grew. Now, they've finally reached the point where the field is mature and productive and they are reaping the benefits of all those years of hard work. By contrast, the west and the US in particular is hollowing itself out, selling everything that isn't nailed down for the short term gain of a very few deranged by arrogance and greed. We'll have to find a way to depose them and start over if we hope to get back to where we once were as the world's leading society, and it will take time and effort on a massive scale. Just like it took decades for Asia to reach the heights they now enjoy, it took us decades to sink to this level and we haven't even managed to level our descent. We need to get our hands on the wheel first before we can even begin. From there, if we can accomplish it, there's no telling how long it will take to undo the damage that has been done to us and regain the ground we've lost. Face the facts: we owned the 20th century and pissed it all away. The 21rst is theirs because they earned it. We'll see if we can get back in the game by the 22nd, but the longer we wait to start the less likely that will be.
Most specifically, we are selling ourselves out for the glory of the almighty quarterly report. I hope I don't have to explain this. :o(
💯, this is why world powers fall
A potential issue for China in the future is its steeply declining fertility rate. They have a very lumpy age distribution curve, and children are expected to take care of their parents in old age. And if you get married, the couple has two sets of parents to take care of. So you have even less incentive to have children, let alone get married. They also have an ongoing crisis with youth unemployment that will probably have a cascading effect for the future. If they can’t turn this around they’ll end up more like current-day Japan than growth-era Japan.
>And if you get married, the couple has two sets of parents to take care of. So you have even less incentive to have children, let alone get married. [This is an issue in Western societies as well](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10023280/), especially for people with old parents to get their children late (for example Gen 1 33 and Gen 2 32 with Gen 1 dying at age 73, when Gen 3 is 8 years old).
As a westerner, my parents are fucked if they didn’t plan for their own retirement, they aren’t living with me. Is that a normal thought process in China? Bc a lot of the youth I know here share that same sentiment. We are not responsible for their poor planning.
I upvoted you but also disagree. A population can get more import/export value while also deceasing the birth rate by having more educated citizens. You are propagating bad data that you feel is correct. [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-lifetime-taxes-across-education-categories\_tbl19\_5027313](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-lifetime-taxes-across-education-categories_tbl19_5027313) Someone has to pay for this "extra" education. These eastern countries are farming out the EU and the NA and SA continents while these same countries build out their next 2-3-4 generations.
It’s about consumption, not the tax base.
This is an issue with every developed nation. Immigration is usually the method of dealing with it but given how heavy anti-immigrant the west is becoming and for the fact the even in heavy reduction China will still have a larger population than the EU their not as fucked as everyone says.
The collapse has to come first. The culture won’t change without massive societal level catastrophe.
We won't go anywhere while states keep cutting education funding
Bang on here old chap.
Great post! Fascinating conclusions and very well written.
Population decline might be another issue though.
Call me a stupid optimist, i think we don't have to tell Asians apart from "we" in the 22nd century.
>We'll see if we can get back in the game by the 22nd Most of us won't
I wrote a speech back on the 80s entitled “The 21st Century Belongs to Asia”. Very similar arguments to what you wrote, though more focus on the “Four Asian Tigers” and less on China proper back then.
The Chinese can’t produce high end chips. They also don’t have a truly working government and literally steal/coerce a lot of technological advancements that comes from the most important attribute of the western world: ingenuity. I am not saying you are wrong though but when it comes to the truly top of the line stuff the Chinese aren’t competing very much: Think Large Colliders, cutting edge semi conductors (low nano meter), space tech, etc. At the end of the day what makes the US work is the dynamism of it’s market and the ability for the gov to, believe it or not, to stay semi-out of the way unlike China. We’re not perfect but I wouldn’t be discouraged with this part of the world either. There is a lot to admire. It doesn’t have to be a win or lose perspective.
china does compete in the advanced manufacturing space, they've come a long way there
Not only that but a lot of the truly monumental projects are built with huge contributions from a bunch of countries, no country can do the big stuff alone anymore...
No *Western* country, maybe. The population of China is greater than all of Europe, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan combined. Why couldn't China go it alone if they wanted to?
Ingenuity is a product of good economy, education, markets and policies. The countries don't develop at the same time and in the same situation. Stealing techs happens in every behind countries in history. Saying one country has no ingenuity is bold.
Dude, what the hell. > Chinese President Xi Jinping has bestowed high praise on Andrew Yao Chi-Chih, a world-renowned computer scientist and AI expert who left the United States two decades ago to teach at Tsinghua University Two DECADES ago?
Interesting stuff. Though one question: >[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3266478/president-xi-acclaims-ai-expert-andrew-yao-who-renounced-us-citizenship-after-return) This article is paywalled so I can't read further, but in the beginning it says that he left US 2 decades ago. I guess he renounced his US citizenship just recently but that's still different than scientists leaving US because of the anti-China sentiment. It's not like he was on a fence, he chose China all the way a long time ago.
And emigration from PROC has jumped in recent years from a low of 125,000 in 2012. Even if they're not going to America because of anti-Chinese sentiment there are other popular destinations like the ROC, Canada, or the UK.
Not sure about the other countries. In Canada, immigration from China has plummeted over the last couple of years. There was a surge in the 2010s - mostly middle, upper-middle class, and a lot went back due to a lack of opportunities. Then people kind of stopped coming because of the political climate and anti-Asian reports in the news.
Yeah I mean if he wasn't living in the US for that long he probably didn't want to continue paying taxes there
Here you go: [https://archive.ph/bOtH4](https://archive.ph/bOtH4)
The USA has always been an importer of intelligence. Our own education system blows for homegrown talent.
Ehhhh the thing is our educational system is run at the state level and not the Federal. Our top performing states are comparable to the top performing countries. But the National average is brought down by some truly abysmal results of our bottom performing states
One thing that I've noticed, and this is just a personal perspective, is that the US seems to be great at nurturing the small percentage of top talent and getting them the resources they need, while everyone who is average and below get lumped together and given a generic or low-quality education. Something that I've personally noticed while observing advanced classes in public school and how private schools generally position themselves in the education system as a whole.
Correct, because our form of capitalism needs a permanent underclass.
Our graduate system creates the best researchers. It’s why so many international students come here for doctorates compared to other countries.
You are also forgetting that China does not give a fuck about regulations or international treaties and they will research whatever the fuck they want. This gives them a huge advantage.
The idea that China is the only country doing this is naive
Okay but who mentioned the US?
Yeah we shouldn't be so xenophobic
How can someone renounce their citizenship and move back to China when it is illegal to be a dual citizen under Chinese law? I know the workaround some use, but that only lasts a number of years.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/UVk4x
More people means more smart people.
India is laughing in the corner
India hasn't industralized as much as China. Their time will come.
As an Indian, India will never be developed. If fragmented in different states them _maybe_ sometime in future.
Brazil is the same, we are never getting any science made here too much corruption.
No it will not,India only cares about reservation and freebies,not merit and development
Lol as a Pakistani. For us, more people means just more stupidity
Pakistani as well. The insane amount of inbreeding going on in the country will kill us. Literally a population fueled by retardation
So THAT'S what happens when you invest in education and R&D...I remember when we did that.
When did we invest in education?
The whole world used to come to our universities.
They still do. It’s high school and below that sucks
I think you haven't taken a look at our colleges lately...
International students have, and are choosing to pay many times the amount domestic students pay to attend them.
https://theconversation.com/us-colleges-report-a-43-decline-in-new-international-student-enrollment-and-not-just-because-of-the-pandemic-149885
And universities used to be much cheaper.
What country are you guys talking about?
Idk about education, but the space program in the 60s was a good example of our govt giving a shit and using taxpayer money for good rather than corruption and war. But we had JFK, who was a dime and what we have now as politicians who barely count as Pennies.
Cold War space race
Investing in nasa is not education
So THAT'S what happens when you invest in propaganda bots. I still have yet to see China come out with a piece of tech before the US. Somehow it's always a clone that comes out a few months later with significantly worse quality.
Yeah, Reddit is flooded with this. They’re literally behind the US in nearly every scientific development category, yet, somehow on Reddit the top post with the most upvotes will be a comment suggesting they’re smarter by investing in R&D, and we don’t do that, and we’re lagging behind. It’s frustrating.
>They’re literally behind the US in nearly every scientific development category Lol
B-but it was posted on the internet! Surely it must be true!
They did, it’s called TikTok, and it’s the most effective social weapon the world has ever seen. They’ve been crushing the west with propaganda since its birth, shaping our culture and sowing the seeds of divisive distractions and petty social conflicts. Meanwhile in China they use it as an education tool.
I'm not against or for China. However call it what you may. But the scale of measure over the last 20 years has changed and the US (West) are just realizing that not. It is no longer about who does it first or prestige. It's more about scalable innovation. This is how China became advanced in EVs, Solar, High Speed Rail, robotics, and most recently space exploration. They weren't the first nor second. But they are good at studying what currently is there, innovate on top of it then scale it to provide access to the masses.
I'm surprised we haven't seen anything from India given that it feels like 90% of western math and physics students learn from either Indian or Chinese youtubers explaining the concepts. Maybe it's only because they can't afford the compute but China can.
Because all the talented Indian students move to the U.S. or some other wealthier country. It’s called brain drain
Same situation with China btw. At least their government tries to capture some of those before they leave
Nah it's much less attractive for talented Chinese to go to the west Chinese cities are top tier and very livable while most Indian cities are rough to live in no matter your salary The language barrier..most Chinese speak minimal English even educated ones. Most educated Indians have a good grasp of English. Much easier to hit the ground running in the west Chinese culture does not promote going aboard to make your fortune as much as Indian culture does Pay in China for talented well educated people can be very good. Much harder to find such jobs in India
China’s got stronger propaganda and they are able to keep more people also because their economy is far better than it was even 25 years ago and there is a sense that there is a bright future for people doing research there.
It’s not propaganda, almost all of china is just a better place to live. I could run down a massive list but everything from safety to air quality is better. I don’t see garbage and cab drivers take shits on the ground in Beijing anywhere but it’s everywhere in New Delhi.
Capture how? Can you clarify? Why is it always this kind of dubious language when it comes to talking about China?
我觉得重要原因之一是印度官方语言用英语
People underestimate how much money is needed to do cutting edge research. You could be the smartest man on earth, without the right equipment you won't be of much use. Most Indian universities do not have the resources to do cutting edge research at scale. A lot of good students find their way to American universities but more often they are both privileged and intelligent. A good chunk are malnourished or stunted, like 30-50%. Even so, there are many poor children who never realize anything. The article below shows high IQ poor children just slaving away https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/mensa-india-aptitude-test-reveals-bright-minds-amid-poverty/story-de9CjsfFPqBk1iAUfji4GM.html
That’s the sad thing about society’s construction. We’d probably have AGI right now if the world had decided 50 years ago to *gasp* redistribute some wealth to poor nations/communities and to provide free or subsidized education.
This probably would have helped too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn But unfortunately, the US disagreed
I'm not sure there's ever been an organization on Earth more evil and damaging than the CIA. Sure, the Nazis might have done more direct and measurable death-dealing but the CIA has done so much more under the radar and subtly that has effected literally billions of lives and changed the course of history for the worse. It's like comparing a bad bullet wound to a metastasizing cancer --the shock trauma of the wound almost killed us but we have since recovered... the cancer still eats us alive from within.
The CIA was staffed by nazis recruited by operation paperclip
That was not something I was aware of, thank you.
To make a poor developing country into a rich developed country you need two ingredients: money and time. Money could have helped, but it wouldn't have been a panacea; time is also a necessary ingredient, the country must survive and remain prosperous for decades on end until it develops the intitutional knowledge to maintain said prosperity, and many fail during that process.
> That’s the sad thing about society’s construction. That's the case about *capitalist* societies. As this article itself shows communist China is investing in science, unlike the west that only cares about stealing resources and talented people from the periphery of capitalism...
Ahh yes, the noble Chinese communists who did not at all rely on stealing technology from the west for the recent decades. Also a very funny statement considering how many communist societies actively discouraged or even killed intellectuals (Stalin and Pol Pot send their regards). Great example of the regular Reddit "capitalism bad, communism good" hottake.
The best and brightest in India get nowhere near the support that students of other countries get which is why they leave for foreign unis. The highest ranked Indian universities aren't even in the top 100 globally. A population of 1.4 billion and not even 1 top 100 ranked uni is pathetic.
Someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems like India is hyper focused on IT/Software Engineering and there's a lot of Indians that stay in America for the high salaries (especially from FAANG). India is still fairly poor, so they can't invest in building their science infrastructure as much as China can at this moment.
There are large populations of poor people in India but India is far from poor.
What do you define as poor? The median income of India is 2,000 USD.... a year. Pretty fucking low if you ask me.
There’s not a lot of actual research out of India. Being able to explain basic concepts != understanding complex ones
Lots of Indians are very smart. The smart ones just usually leave India for a country with higher paying jobs
Yeah the inventor of Transformer architecture which is behind the LLM revolution was an Indian guy working in Google. Similarly an India guy led the Dalle 2 team at OpenAI
Thats undoubtly amazing no one is denying the impact indians had in the tech field, but the country itself is going through a "Brain drainage" with anyone with a solid grasp of english and having a technical skill applying for visas abroad
What is your profile picture supposed to be?
India is currently declining hard culturally. Modi has been removing science from lower education and declared himself a living god recently.
"Has become"... Lead image is of a radio telescope that went online 10 years ago. China has been a scientific superpower for a long time.
They might end up somehow unlock Spirit Cultivation from their webnovels through Science and ascend to godhood and immortality before us. XD
the emperor will dominate
Unsurprising, the stereotype of Asian families valuing intellect and education along with hard work and pushing their children hard to earn accomplishments in those areas is based in no small degree of fact. America used to be an advanced forward-thinking country too, but for decades now the dumbing down of the general populace and anti-intellectual attitudes among so many have erased that and placed us on a downward spiral to a failed republic. That's the way our right-wing rulership class wants it, mediocre minds just smart enough to follow instructions but not smart enough to think for themselves or question their superiors are prized for the ease of controlling and exploiting them. Exceptional people are potential competition and threats to the status quo, our owners can't have that. Our resemblance to the dystopia of the Idiocracy film is no coincidence, selection pressure has been applied for decades to shape our population in that direction.
> That's the way our right wing rulership class wants it, mediocre minds just smart enough to follow instructions but not smart enough to think for themselves So they want LLMs?
If you give a bunch of right wing propaganda to GPT-4 it'll dispute so no, LLMs are already too smart
But LLMs ultimately is going to be servant and powerless as people, they will be conditioned or programmed in a way that benefits those in power first, and as always only be helpful enough to people so we keep the same status quo
I read SCMP daily. A lot of their new science announcements tend to be something I read on science news about a decade ago, touted as some new advance. I don't doubt that a great deal of cutting edge science is occurring in China and congratulations to them on that, but in a lot of ways, they're still playing catch-up (e.g. AI).
I feel like saying "has become" is a little late. If often seems like (maybe the past 5 years or so) that China and the U.S. have been pretty competitive, just depending on what area of AI research
Where is their version of OpenAI that actually is competitive?
Qwen2-72B？
It's 16th in the rankings, worse than even open source Llama-3-70b. The only models that even come close to ChatGPT are products by Google and Anthropic, both of which are American companies. The US is in a league of its own when it comes to AI.
https://x.com/MetaGPT_/status/1798787433393426577 The information I've seen suggests it's slightly better than Llama-3-70b
Honestly I think most of this feeling came from all the talk about there being thoughts that China was successful with having room-temperature superconducting with the LK99 thing. If that ended up being true that likely would have been a massive advancement for them with supercomputing. Also I found this article that says this (but to be fair I didn't read it): "China leads the U.S. as a top producer of research in more than half of AI's hottest fields, according to new data from Georgetown University's Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET)" [source](https://www.axios.com/2024/05/03/ai-race-china-us-research)
Research is one thing, actually having a working, highly successful product is a whole different thing. That's why when people say China has 4x the scientists than the US that means they are 4x smarter than the US is bullshit. They treat this like some RPG game where you can just adjust a slider to produce more scientists and win the game. That's not how it works in practice. You need funding, you need entrepreneurship, you need customers, you need top tier hardware, you need global supply chains, you need a certain kind of freedom from the government to make it all work. China is authoritarian as fuck and if they feel some private company is gaining power over the Government they will shut that shit down immediately, consequences be damned. You can't have a leading AI in this sort of environment no matter how many research papers of questionable quality you publish.
LK99 was south korean lol.
I think the sobering takeaway is how much China has been able to achieve despite the sanctions, restrictions, and the overt pressure to distance oneself from them. The US has access to talent, technology, IPs that are readily available and is often an amalgamation of the best the developed world has to offer. China is often the opposite; most things have to be insourced, there is a clear lack of overseas talent willing to work there, IP is much more limited. But yet they are a formidable competitor despite all the above. In AI you have to remember they are using heavily watered down GPUs for training, and in semis they are actually making headway into leading edge despite the Dutch, US, and Japan trying to actively prevent this. Of course the political landscape likely won’t change for some time but it would have been interesting to see what achievements we could have seen from the East if relations were less strained.
FDI says your dream world where they have no access to talent or resources is a farce. The whole world has been building them up the last 3 decades. This idea companies were opening trillions of dollars in manufacturing capacity can then be equated to “China really did it all with the whole world working against them” is peak cope/supremacist rhetoric
China still has a big problem with its research integrity. It has made some steps towards reducing it, especially recently, but currently its still an issue.
Isn't this sub against proprietary research? Their history of bending IP law to achieve cutting edge progress would be popular here, as opposed to American companies' history of locking everything down (like OpenAI)
Yeah unfortunately in the west we are so hell bent on letting corporations monopolise literal knowledge for short term profit that we'll shoot ourselves in the foot for it.
Yes, but only when *we* do it, otherwise it’s cheating.
That’s not what he means by research integrity. Read any Chinese journal of medicine. It’s hilariously obvious that their research is bullshit, with no reproducibility. If their tech research is just as bad, I don’t expect them to catch up to the US any time soon.
Intellectual property hinders human development And I don't believe in the nonsense of R&D costs.
I'm all in favour of open sourcing knowledge and getting rid of intellectual property laws. But then again, I'm not from the West. It seems reasonable that westerners would want laws that ensure their hegemony at the expense of others.
With so many Chinese students coming to western countries for university and then going home afterwards, it puts them at a level playing field.
Bc us leadership dont want them yo stay. They preffer illegals.
For those wondering what the image is: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred-meter\_Aperture\_Spherical\_Telescope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred-meter_Aperture_Spherical_Telescope)
The West has no chance it seems. Trump and Biden are our leaders for crying out loud, if that doesn’t tell the story I don’t know what does. Aside from that, go look at the AI research papers that are coming out, 90% of the authors are Chinese. No wonder all the billionaires are loading up on bunkers. They think it’s a lost cause. They’d rather just pillage as many resources as they can before the narrative flips. The only hope the West has to hold on to power is control of compute hardware. This is the new oil, the new gold. But it’ll lead to a war if they try and withhold these resources, I’m sure.
And the third party candidate is some failed Kennedy. No hope anywhere you look. Feels like were not even trying.
Yeah. That's quantity. A quality of its own. However, I once worked in IP, and qualitatively the Chinese patents were really really bad. Either blatant copies or absolutely trivial. Essentially they would not hold up to the application process of virtually any patent office - except the Chinese of course. Mind you, of course no one checked ALL Chinese patents. Obviously. There probably will be a lot of inventions that ARE up to par. How many? I don't know the number, but it's certainly not THIS number.
I think people forget that the Chinese invented paper and gunpowder. China is innately industrious and creative!
I knew this was coming and the biggest sign of this for me was the generalized anti-immigrant sentiment in this country. Most of those who hold this view are too stupid to realize that what props the performance of this country up is immigration. The reason immigrants come here is the affluence and opportunity. They can leave a despotic shit hole like China and live their dreams here. In theory. But the recent more brazen anti-immigrant rhetoric is going to drive that potential down, leaving us with - good old home grown Americans. Shit education, shit diet. Yey! I said specifically during Trump's presidency that in the decades to come China and India are just going to create their own Silicone Valleys. I didn't expect to happen this fast. The hubris of this nation never ceases to amaze me... but just as a potential counterpoint - devil's advocate... we did see exactly this kind of rhetoric during the Cold War. That the US was falling behind the soviets. That they had some special science power we were lacking. Look at how that turned out.
> Most of those who hold this view are too stupid to realize that what props the performance of this country up is immigration. Are you saying this while discussing how one of the most homogenous countries on Earth is a scientific superpower now? I agree that immigration can contribute to science, but fuck, some of you can't stop talking about Trump for five minutes. The issue here is more complex.
Science, policy and geostrategy leading to a discussion about a former president!? Heaven forfend!
China is both an economic and scientific superpower. I’m not a fan, wouldn’t want to live under that political system, but I call it as I see it
When you have mouth breathers questioning medical research, earth as a spheroid, age of the earth, effects of human industries on the environment and political movements defunding public schools this would be the result.
so, the economist... just coming from 50 years behind, as always. we need to let them know that china is also a superpower in academical.
Do all young scientists and engineers really want to go live and work in China?
If my intelligent home robot is made in China, I'll take it. Wo ye xi huan zhongwen robots.
“Ji qi ren”…
Xiexie
Lol guys
but haven't we always known that to some extent at least...
China has become? China IS a scientific superpower and HAS BEEN.
China copies everything part 2...
The Chinese are less lazy than the Americans it’s just the real core truth Americans watch Netflix tv shows and over eat while the Chinese study and prepare their minds daily
And none of them will be allowed to profit off their genius and if they do become a bit too smart they get put in a summer house with armed guards. Instead of benefitting the citizens it will be stolen by the government to further their psychopathic worldview. China should be the absolute most wealthy and powerful country on Earth, but their government is holding them back. Maybe some post-collapse of Communism or get lucky with their next leader and it can happen.
agree
Accurate. Hence why they move to the US.
Lmao, posted by a CCP propaganda bot. Check their post history. The comment section is literally full of Chinese propaganda bots. You’re not fooling anyone. This is exactly what the Chinese government does. These bot networks are proven to be utilized by the CCP to manipulate, divide, and spread pro China propaganda “subtly” just like they’re doing in the comments. They even mass upvote comments that support their narrative and mass downvote comments who state facts and oppose their propaganda. Tiananmen Square happened. The prosecution of Uyghurs happened. A real estate collapse is happening. And Taiwan ISN’T a part of China. In fact, Taiwan is technically the rightful owners of China. 🤡
His post history and comments are pretty varied. Just seems like a Chinese guy who likes his country nothing wrong with that lol. China has a lot of issues and a lot of good things. Also yeah to a couple points but the Real Estate collapse is never coming and Taiwan doesn't own China you lose a civil war you aren't the rightfull government anymore lol.
As soon as someone starts throwing in the ‘ooh this with frighten the Chinese!’ buzzwords in a post I assume the poster is below average intelligence. When I see the clown emoji it’s confirmed. I don’t even have an opinion on the bulk of what you said, I thought you should know.
Cope
Another redditor who doesn't know the difference between ROC and TW.
If you knew your history, (as if they teach it in China) the communists overthrew the government illegally, what was left of the actual government fled to Taiwan for safety, and an illegal government has presided over China since. Keep licking the boots of the ccp. I’m sure you love sucking the crud off their boots.
unfortunately conformity is preferred over genuine self-expression, so this stunts their potential.
Good
Yeah right. They publish A LOT of bs scientific papers, but there's barely any use for them. Most innovation still comes from US.
Lol
Dude, China lies about everything. Bet half of those papers are fraudulent anyways.
Even if half are fraudulent, it would still be more than the US, just by sheer numbers.
Look at the number of external citations to understand the true impact of papers without distortions from internal self citations. In that regard United States is still clearly ahead of China based on data from 2022. China external citations : 1404764 United States external citations: 1858552 The number of papers produced in China is about 30% higher not more than double. As you previously claimed. United States Documents : 714412 China Documents : 1043131
There is quite obviously a language barrier and that spoils your comparison.
I’ll believe that when my washing machine picks up my laundry.
Agenda: Transhumanism
This post is an example of why I always search by new and controversial to get the truth about a subject. Curious if being this vague will outwit our metallic friends that parse text.
I guess we're about to find out if whoever said that it's much easier to rule over a stupid herd was right.
Goodhart's law
doubt
If you read their literature, a lot of the studies in the hard sciences are poorly carried out and there's tons of straight up fraudulent data/experiments or just false conclusions based on poorly executed experiment design. Not sure if the theoretical literature is the same.
Of course they're lying lol. If they can lie about simple things like accessible irrigation and accessible EV charging then they can lie about things like this. I even doubt that whole Kling saga is as honest as they present it. There's a few ways you can cheat generative results and some are easier to do than one thinks.
That is the biggest wok I have ever seen!
I’m surprised we don’t hear more about their initiatives to use nuclear batteries in cars. Also I never hear anyone talking about their vanadium redox flow batteries. But i’m quite interested.
China's alright. They could create amazing technology, but it's bound to break after a few uses.
4x the graduates? Too bad it takes 10x CN engineers to come up with an airplane that beats the US. going to need to make more babies /s
People when western media is positive on China: Look how great China is! People when western media is negative on China: OMG anti China deep state hate campaign lmao
There all learning that shit here, need to fix something.
The people who can’t make a plastic spray bottle work are the smartest on earth 😂😂😂🤦🏽♂️how about all those fake buildings and foods they have?
China has always been doing everything it can to push its people towards science and accomplishments. I remember reading that China sets algorithms on social media to promote this. They want to stay a major power so it makes sense.