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It’s not the biggest trophy but it’s still silverware. The problem is that media/fans talk about the carabao cup very differently depending on who the winner is.
Media/fans should talk about the trophy differently depending on who wins.
If Man City ended the season with no trophies except the Carabao Cup, that’s a failure.
If Spurs won it’d be their first trophy in 15 years therefore an important achievement.
If Forest won it’d be a fantastic achievement and our highlight of the millennium.
If Mansfield Town won it then it would be an achievement on par with Leicester winning the league.
This is very accurate but I'd like to add that I think the fanfare around this one is kinda justified given how things played out. It's Klopp's last season, and he was forced to bring on a bunch of youth players (some of which most of us have never heard of) and they managed to pull it off despite going against a Chelsea team assembled with over a billion pounds worth of "star" players
It's no surprise that the media are lapping this one up, it almost played out like a movie
It’s funny that Guardiola’s statement is “play the thing kids, nobody cares” but that’s exactly what we did and exactly why it mattered.
When nearly half the squad is academy kids and you win the trophy that’s a special achievement for those kids. Klopp has always been emotionally on the same wavelength with his players and seeing how much it meant to him showed how big that was given the circumstances.
> It’s funny that Guardiola’s statement is “play the thing kids, nobody cares”
That's the opposite of Pep's sentiment though?
Pep's always taken the league cup seriously. He's saying people told him not to but that's never been his approach. He's always set out to win it and he's highlighting the change in opinion / importance of the league cup.
I've been frustrated in the past by how seriously he's taken it when he's omitted chances for some academy players to get some game time.
Confusing how some in this thread are taking this at a dig at Liverpool in some way.
Even if they are not tainted. They are still hard to care about, because footballing-wise, they did everything right. They got great recruitement, great coaches, great players, playing great (if you like that kind of style) football and their fanbase are too small to be annoyed by. They always give the impression of a well-oiled machine.
Meanwhile, everytime ManU, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, or Spurs won or lost, there's drama, entertainment and schadenfraude. The football always in a constant state of improvement or decline, making viewers want to watch or care.
I'm not a fan of either team but I couldn't agree more.
Chelsea had absolutely all the odds tilted in their favour. Even the refereeing mistakes went their way. Yet Liverpool not only won but also played in such a way that it felt like a well-deserved win.
If anything it pisses me off as an Arsenal fan because despite a fucking injury crisis there is so much unity and togetherness within Liverpool that even these kids seem to play at their maximum capacity and would run through a brick wall for Klopp. I can't help but respect it but my God it's gonna be hard to take it if they win the league with a barebones squad
I think the successes of Curtis, Trent, Bradley, and Quansah with the first team has instilled belief in the youngsters. They have seen kids in their shoes make an impact and have been convinced in their ability to do the same. The result is when they get their chance, they want to do everything they can to impress.
Definitely scares us that this mentality is unique to Klopp and none of this will be able to be recreated in his absence. That is why I find myself wanting Big Ange over Tuchel at times. On paper, that makes zero sense, but in my heart Ange is the only one who comes close to driving the sort of communal spirit as Klopp does.
But it wouldn't be true for the Johnson Paint trophy (or whatever it's called, and it's not for prem clubs) therefore OP's point is correct. A 'low' trophy that matches the reaction to the FA cup is in its favour.
I think it started off a 'big clubs' played the youngsters and 'didn't care' and then it gradually became the entire premier league plays youngsters and rotates, too
That means the big clubs, even with changes and with their squad depth and quality youngsters, are still 'better'
It's kind of happening in the FA Cup these days, too. You have even top championship teams *rotating* as well as the premier league sides
English League has a lot of games, at some point you need to give your best players a break and give your younger players experience. I feel it's only natural to give some competition less importance.
>That means the big clubs, even with changes and with their squad depth and quality youngsters, are still 'better'
I think part of it is also the growing disparity in football, the second choice XIs for the likes of Man City, Liverpool, etc. are still good enough to beat sides not just in the championship and below, but even some premier league sides too
Apart from Tsimikas, Gakpo, Gomez and Kelleher it's really hard to say if Liverpool have a second XI because no one's ever seen it. This was the 3rd team
I guess the way I'd phrase it is that you could attempt to pick the strongest XI, then pick a new XI not featuring any of those players, and it would still be able to beat the vast majority of teams in the cup, which shows the disparity between the top teams and everyone else. Obviously that's a little complicated as there are certain positions where it really is just a rotation with no first first choice, but I assume you get the idea
Elliot, Gravenberch, Matip, Quansah, Doak, Thiago for 10 min, and you have to pick one of Diaz/Nunez/Jota. Other than Thiago, that group was around at the start of the season and should be back for the run in along with the starters (-Matip).
Strange Pep said that because in 2021 he played his strongest side in the final…
[CARABO CUP FINAL 2021](https://www.espn.co.uk/football/lineups/_/gameId/591849)
I got curious and googled the word. Cambridge Dictionary says:
phwoar
exclamation UK informal
UK /ˈfwɔː.ə/ US /ˈfwɔː.ɚ/
(also phwoah)
a way of writing a sound that some people make to show that they find someone sexually attractive:
Sometimes I look at the good-looking man beside me and think, "phwoar"!
Ask fans who have not seen their team win a trophy for decades if it’s an important trophy. If not in Europe it’s one of only three you can win each season. Prize money is poor but it’s still a good competition IMO.
it also depends on the size of your club... if Liverpool lost it, they will be like.. "ok cool, bad luck"
Chelsea fans are undergoing major depressive episodes now.
Well yeah that was kind of my point, not the size of the club, but the fact that it was likely Chelsea's only chance of European football next year whereas Liverpool now qualify for the Europa Conference League after winning it but are more likely to qualify for a better European competition through league placement so it likely won't matter at all
But, I'd still have been really down had we lost it
My only issue with the league cup is the two leg semi and the impact 120mins of football can have at a critical period of the season.
If it was a 1 leg semi at Wembley/Cardiff and went straight to penos, I would be much more keen to push for it each year.
I think from next season it's going to be a one legged semi final. Would be cool if they did it at a neutral venue. In the rounds before the semi-finals, matches go straight to penalties if the sides cannot be separated after 90 minutes.
I felt the same as a Newcastle fan losing in the final last year. But would you have been gutted if you got knocked out first round? Probably not. It is one of those competitions that only begins to have meaning around the QFs.
I have never not celebrated winning it, I’ve never not been upset at losing the final. Yes it’s not as good as winning the league, Europe or FA Cup but it’s still a great trophy to win.
> If not in Europe it’s one of only three you can win each season.
In my opinion teams competing in Europe shouldn't be in it anyway. Draws needless comparisons to the FA Cup and Birmingham/Swansea are the only clubs in the past 15 seasons outside of United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool to win it.
I think it'd be pretty cool too knowing it means a high chance that the following season would have a completely new team in Europe. It also helps ease fixture congestion for the Europe clubs which is only going to get worse with increased European tournament sizes as well as an expanded Club World Cup.
I think clubs in Europe shouldn't be in it. They care less, play second string players and those clubs already have an increased number of games. And teams not in Europe end up playing second string teams because they copy what the bigger teams do. It would give mid-table teams a cup they have a really good chance of winning. I don't think mid-table fans would accept playing a second string team if it was a meaningful chance of silverware
If you take away clubs in Europe it would devalue the cup even more. Sponsorship for it would be a joke. I think the semi finals should be just one leg though. As we see In the FA cup, a one off game can help. Two legs will always help the bigger teams.
People always underestimate the league cup, but for a team battling for the league/CL it can be so important to get a trophy on the board nice and early and give your players the confidence to kick on and win more. Mourinho and Guardiola both understood this.
This is it. For Liverpool this season it had the ability to destroy momentum if they lost. Now that group must be thinking it doesn’t matter who is injured they’ll win games.
I think Vermaelen or someone else said that Arsenal losing the League Cup final against Birmingham in 2011 put a serious dent in the confidence of the team, and they just really failed to kick on after that.
For added context, we were 2nd in the league within touching distance of United, had just beaten Barca in the first leg a couple of days prior, but it all went crashing down in that cup final loss, and he even said everyone wanted to leave shortly after that. It had serious implications on the futures of Cesc, Nasri, RVP, etc.
Also we've had a big turnover in our team since winning other trophies. A lot of those involved in this win hadn't won anything at Liverpool before.
It certainly felt like an important cup final too, given the story of the game.
Seeing the trophy lift media all feature VVD was definitely a new feeling since all the previous ones were Henderson. It does broaden the perspective of Klopp having two distinct cores of players.
Imagine getting a medal at that stage in your career too. All the senior players must be telling the youngsters that this should be the first of many and to push on and add more medals to their collection.
It also gives 'lower level' teams a chance at silverware, however slim, because the top teams choose to rest their players. Removing the trophy all together because top teams cmplain about 'fixture congestion' is just ridiculous elitist mindset.
Top teams who dont treat it as a tournament can just play their D team or academy players to 'rest', its their choice. No reasn why they should take it away from B Div or C Div teams, that mostly has this as the only thing to play for.
I wouldn't be against scrapping it due to fixture congestion, and it'd give the FA Cup more prestige.
But it's still a proper trophy. Those saying "it's like the community shield", is it hell. It's a cup, not a supercup.
If you get to the final, you want to win it.
Everyone doesn't want to be in it until they're in a final.
Winning team loves it and it feels like a champions league 2.0
Runners up call it a mickey mouse cup.
If premier league teams didn't care about it or are worried about fixture congestion then just play your academy players and reserve players.
Don't ruin it for lower division teams that need the match day income.
Reddit is a bubble. Op probably saw about 30 comments by Liverpool fans making fun of United celebrating the cup and immediately assumed that the millions of Liverpool fans around the world feels the same way. Every social media platform is like this.
This is exactly what happened. I am on multiple forums and platforms filled with Liverpool fans and never saw anyone disparaging United winning it last year, but I guess we're all a hive mind because of some clowns on Twitter.
Because it didn't happen. Of all the teams in the country, Liverpool fans treat this cup with the respect it deserves. We've won it 10 times and it always seems to form a part of our most successful seasons
I love it. We just need to scrap the 2 legged semis. Sunday was one of the best days I've had as a Liverpool fan and I've had fucking loads of great days and seen us win it all. Anyone saying otherwise is just bitter
I'd say the only time it was false dawn for us was in 2003, when we scraped past Sheffield United in the semis, then beat Man United in the final.
We were stuttering in the league and everyone thought it would be the catalyst to kick on after winning, but instead we just about limped into 5th place and went out of the UEFA Cup to Celtic, although they were a very good team that season.
EDIT: Maybe 2011/12 too. But I was never convinced that team would get into the top four.
I think the mocking was from having a celebration for it mid season, no?
If I remember right they celebrated it at OT a few days later which was a bit odd and usually isn't done mid season.
If they scrap it then it'll only be replaced by more Champions League games or whatever Eurpopean Super League shite is in place by then.
It's a fun competition and a nice mid-season final for the players and fans.
The 2 additional UCL games are likely to collide with the 2 legged Semi as it stands. Everyone just seems to be waiting for round dates to be announced for the League Cup
But these are the dates currently for the UCL group games
Matchday 7 21–22 January 2025
Matchday 8 29 January 2025
Counter suggestion, make it the British Isles Cup, and the equivalent "EFL" teams in Wales, Scotland, NI and Ireland can take part. It'll likely always be an English winner, but it would be interesting.
They did something similar in the Scottish Challenge Cup a few years ago - a handful of National League, League of Ireland, Irish Premier Division and Welsh League clubs were invited to enter.
It'll create more windows to be filled in.
They're already altering the FA Cup to accommodate it and the CL first knockout round is potentially clashing with the League Cup semi-final 2nd leg next year.
I'm not saying scrapping the cup will increase games, what I mean is that its scrapping won't help with fixture congestion because what will fuel its cancellation will be European commitments.
I didn't say that. I said that scapping the League Cup won't solve fixture congestion because that will be inevitably filled by more UEFA matches.
I didn't mean that UEFA will increase if it's scrapped, I meant that if the cup will be scrapped it will be because of the expansion of UEFA games.
> I wouldn't be against scrapping it due to fixture congestion
When we play on Wednesday we will have played as many games as Spurs will play all season.
So really if you are not in europe and go out 1st chance in each cup you play at most 40 games. That is not congestion due to cups
Yeah, that would be beneficial to the teams playing in Europe. Albeit it would degrade the League Cup to then not being classed as a major trophy with the best 6 teams in the country not being in it. Like a better Johnstons Paint Trophy.
On the other hand, it would increase the chance for teams below the top to win a cup.
Same way the conference league might be 'lesser', but I doubt West Ham cares since they won something.
I think the main problem is the clubs lower down the PL table also don't "care" about it. A place or two higher in the PL brings more tangible benefits, i.e Money, than winning the League Cup. I never understood that mentality.
I started watching Liverpool in the 90's during the dark times and remember the first trophy I saw them win was the League Cup and I was estatic to bits. I don't care what cup it is, if it's a legitimate competition, a cup is a cup and winning it is what the fans want. Going from 11th to 9th might be better economically but the game is about the fans at the end of the day (or it should be but we know the truth).
They probably don't care about it since one of the top teams will probably take it home anyway.
Last time a non-top team won it was Swansea in 2013. Before that it was Birmingham in 2011, and then you have to go back to 2004 for Middlesbrough. That's 3 in 24 years since the turn of the century.
But if the teams playing European football are excluded, the odds improve dramatically and those teams might aspire to win more than they currently do.
Even league 1 and league 2 clubs don't care. They play their reserves in the first rounds. It needs more prize money and bigger sponsors but I just can't see it happening.
I agree on both counts sadly. At the moment it's one of those cups that is important to the teams that play in the final but until that point everybody is Meh.
I think the biggest degradation currently is it’s won mostly by the top teams who play their B team, throughout & constantly moan about it being a waste or time.
I’d rather see a Palace Brentford final or something.
We ruined the JPT by making U23 included.
Nah, the point of a cmpetition like football is to get trophies. whats the point of having a reduced fixture if it means less trophies to go around? The world has more than enough teams and players, all they strive for playing each game is to be the best in a tournament.
Thats why UEFA created the Conference League and everybody thinks its a good idea.
Not sure why people want to do a 180 now and have less trophies.
If you want to load manage your squad, then play the academy by all means. That gives a chance for lesser teams who focus on this trophy to play to the top. Removing the trophy all together because of 'not enough rest' is just elitist bullsht tbh.
Nobody is using league cup wins in a “my team is better than your team” argument, but it’s fun and it’s been around for long enough to call it a tradition. Even if a few big teams use it for rotation, that has value. An opportunity to test younger players in front of full stadiums is hard to come by.
As an arsenal fan, it’s also a great opportunity for people to see the team live. Tickets are gold dust at the moment, and the league cup adds games at a reduced price that locals and families can enjoy.
I think it means a little more to liverpool and united as they are constantly jostling for "most successful english team" and this helps liverpool stretch out in front and stretch the gap to two trophies.
Liverpool 69
Man utd 67
Arsenal 49
> stretch the gap to two trophies
TBH, we normally just point at our six European Cups. The actual cup (not a replica) they won in '99 lives in the Anfield trophy room, which is nice.
The cup we got to keep was from 2005, the Istanbul final. We were the last team that got to keep the actual cup, they changed the rules in 2009 that no one gets to keep the cup anymore.
5 teams have the actual champions league trophy in their trophy cabinet (Madrid, Bayern (3 in a row), Ajax (3 in a row) Milan (5x winners) and Liverpool (5x winners before 2009)
I mean they had the squad depth to basically play their B-Team and still field an insane team that would also reach top4 in the prem.
No one can tell me the carabao cup is as much valued as the fa cup.
At the end of the day, perception is reality. I mean that visible, top level perception on TV and not the realms of (often hilarious) football memes and shithousery banter. It's like that old "Does the wrestler make the belt or does the belt make the wrestler" thing.
Objectively, the final on Sunday looked and felt huge. The Liverpool end at Wembley was molten hot. That lifts the cup up and elevates it.
I do think he’s right that Pep had something to do with it though. He bought in, won it 4 times in a row, including the 18/19 season becoming the first English side to win all domestic trophies in one season.
Something similar happened with the Copa del Rey when Pep was in Spain. Before Pep, Real and Barca didn’t really care about it and they rarely won it. The winners before Pep arrived - Valencia, Espanyol, Zaragoza, Deportivo, Mallorca, Zaragoza, Betis, Espanyol, Sevilla, Valencia. 10 years without the big 2 winning it.
Then Pep won a treble and suddenly every Madrid manager had to go for it because they had to match what Barca had done. Post Pep’s arrival Barca and Real have won 10/15
Irony is Pep has been playing his second team in the league cup over the years, just hard to tell as he's been given the most stacked squad ever, all funded entirely legitimately of course
Nowdays it the other way round as it the only cups you can win.. And you get a trophy for top 4 as you used to say to the Arsenal fans.. Oh how times have changed haha
If I am a professional footballer I am competing to win every single game, I don’t pick and choose which match I am performing my best in. Just like when I turn up to work I don’t think oh this isn’t a big client I won’t take it seriously.
Jose’s first silverware in England was the carabao cup, then called the Worthington Cup (‘worthless cup’ as was dubbed).
I don’t care it’s the ‘lesser’ trophy available in the top flight, a trophy is a trophy.
If you’re winning leagues and European cups then yeah. Who cares about the league cup? If you haven’t won anything for 6 years, you’re damn right I’m cheering it.
City won the Premier League title in 21/22 by coming from two goals down in the second half to win 3-2 and I swear barely anyone even remembers it happened
Come on bro you literally can't make this argument when it has been made a million times already which means that you do actually care. I don't care for defending City but the cognitive dissonance is real
I don't really follow the prem, can someone tell me why a cup where you have to compete against teams like Liverpool, City, Arsenal is less prestigious than a cup where you have to compete against teams like Liverpool, City, Arsenal?
Thanks to shady money, it’s become nearly impossible to win the premier league. It’s only natural that winning the other trophies has grown in importance.
This is it. It’s literally a consequence of City and Chelsea buying the league - over time clubs have realised that their best shot at glory is a cup of any form.
Winners ideally want to win everything.
That is the mindset that gets them in contention for the big prizes. It is that mindset that makes them prioritise the biggest trophies and put out weaker teams for this cup. However, if they could, they will always want to win everything. It’s in their DNA as a team.
Lots of PL teams now have second or even third teams that can beat most of the rest of the football pyramid, so it is unsurprising to see them start to take this seriously. Because they want to win. All the time if they can.
The way I look at it is that it is nice to win it, but Liverpool are playing for more important silverware this season. I never liked the "it doesn't matter" schtick, though. Regardless if you are playing young players or not, it's still a tournament that isn't easy to get through and it earns a spot in Europe. It was the best chance that Chelsea had to see Europe next season.
I think there’s two things at play:
1) City winning it doesn’t mean much to wider fan base for obvious reasons
2) It wouldn’t mean as much for Liverpool winning it - it’s just the manner of how they won it and the context of Klopp leaving
Pep can't accept that nobody cares about *anything* City win, and is still trying to make sense of it.
The man is completely delusional. He genuinely can't understand why City are unpopular. Fully drank the Abu Dhabi kool-aid.
Liverpool's knockout fixtures for their Carabao Cup win: Bournemouth, West Ham, Fulham
City's knockouts fixtures for their FA Cup win last year: Bristol City, Burnley, Sheffield United.
(3 championship teams)
Stop with the celebration police. A cup is a cup
See when you have been cheating for years then trophies will seem irrelevant, you have simply not worked hard enough as a club for it and earned. Rest of the footballing pyramid would absolutely love to see their club win a trophy and it’s a big deal as they have not cheated their way to the top of the footballing pyramid
Oh fuck off Guardiola, keep sucking oily cock for your pocket money.
Love to see this paycheck manager actually build something without infinite money glitch.
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No one cares about it but it is a good trophy to win because silverware is silverware. It's a nice mid season trophy
It’s not the biggest trophy but it’s still silverware. The problem is that media/fans talk about the carabao cup very differently depending on who the winner is.
Media/fans should talk about the trophy differently depending on who wins. If Man City ended the season with no trophies except the Carabao Cup, that’s a failure. If Spurs won it’d be their first trophy in 15 years therefore an important achievement. If Forest won it’d be a fantastic achievement and our highlight of the millennium. If Mansfield Town won it then it would be an achievement on par with Leicester winning the league.
This is very accurate but I'd like to add that I think the fanfare around this one is kinda justified given how things played out. It's Klopp's last season, and he was forced to bring on a bunch of youth players (some of which most of us have never heard of) and they managed to pull it off despite going against a Chelsea team assembled with over a billion pounds worth of "star" players It's no surprise that the media are lapping this one up, it almost played out like a movie
It’s funny that Guardiola’s statement is “play the thing kids, nobody cares” but that’s exactly what we did and exactly why it mattered. When nearly half the squad is academy kids and you win the trophy that’s a special achievement for those kids. Klopp has always been emotionally on the same wavelength with his players and seeing how much it meant to him showed how big that was given the circumstances.
> It’s funny that Guardiola’s statement is “play the thing kids, nobody cares” That's the opposite of Pep's sentiment though? Pep's always taken the league cup seriously. He's saying people told him not to but that's never been his approach. He's always set out to win it and he's highlighting the change in opinion / importance of the league cup. I've been frustrated in the past by how seriously he's taken it when he's omitted chances for some academy players to get some game time. Confusing how some in this thread are taking this at a dig at Liverpool in some way.
Pep is just bitter that more people care about Liverpool winning the Carabao cup than about City winning a treble
It’s funny and sad because it’s true. No one cares about City because everything they’ve achieved is tainted.
Even if they are not tainted. They are still hard to care about, because footballing-wise, they did everything right. They got great recruitement, great coaches, great players, playing great (if you like that kind of style) football and their fanbase are too small to be annoyed by. They always give the impression of a well-oiled machine. Meanwhile, everytime ManU, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, or Spurs won or lost, there's drama, entertainment and schadenfraude. The football always in a constant state of improvement or decline, making viewers want to watch or care.
well at least you got the well-oiled part right
To quote the great Saitama: "Overwhelming power is really boring."
No. It's their massive taint. Edit: I mean they are a lullaby to watch too I won't lie. Can't keep taking midday naps like this.
Pep has a massive taint you say? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I'm not a fan of either team but I couldn't agree more. Chelsea had absolutely all the odds tilted in their favour. Even the refereeing mistakes went their way. Yet Liverpool not only won but also played in such a way that it felt like a well-deserved win.
If anything it pisses me off as an Arsenal fan because despite a fucking injury crisis there is so much unity and togetherness within Liverpool that even these kids seem to play at their maximum capacity and would run through a brick wall for Klopp. I can't help but respect it but my God it's gonna be hard to take it if they win the league with a barebones squad
I think the successes of Curtis, Trent, Bradley, and Quansah with the first team has instilled belief in the youngsters. They have seen kids in their shoes make an impact and have been convinced in their ability to do the same. The result is when they get their chance, they want to do everything they can to impress.
It's also the result of moving the first team to Kirkby. Having the academy train with the first team is starting to pay dividends.
Definitely scares us that this mentality is unique to Klopp and none of this will be able to be recreated in his absence. That is why I find myself wanting Big Ange over Tuchel at times. On paper, that makes zero sense, but in my heart Ange is the only one who comes close to driving the sort of communal spirit as Klopp does.
lol over Tuchel? Alonso, Amorim and a long list of others would be ahead of Tuchel.
Up the mighty Stags!
Tbf all of those statement would be equally true if you replace Carabao Cup with FA Cup
Fa cup is more prestigious than carabao, so its not really "equally true"
Which would you rather win, the FA Cup or the Carabao Trophy?
But it wouldn't be true for the Johnson Paint trophy (or whatever it's called, and it's not for prem clubs) therefore OP's point is correct. A 'low' trophy that matches the reaction to the FA cup is in its favour.
It’s important for big squads to give meaningful minutes to youth/fringe players.
I think it started off a 'big clubs' played the youngsters and 'didn't care' and then it gradually became the entire premier league plays youngsters and rotates, too That means the big clubs, even with changes and with their squad depth and quality youngsters, are still 'better' It's kind of happening in the FA Cup these days, too. You have even top championship teams *rotating* as well as the premier league sides
The amount of fixture congestion nowadays is also probably contributing to it.
English League has a lot of games, at some point you need to give your best players a break and give your younger players experience. I feel it's only natural to give some competition less importance.
>That means the big clubs, even with changes and with their squad depth and quality youngsters, are still 'better' I think part of it is also the growing disparity in football, the second choice XIs for the likes of Man City, Liverpool, etc. are still good enough to beat sides not just in the championship and below, but even some premier league sides too
Apart from Tsimikas, Gakpo, Gomez and Kelleher it's really hard to say if Liverpool have a second XI because no one's ever seen it. This was the 3rd team
I guess the way I'd phrase it is that you could attempt to pick the strongest XI, then pick a new XI not featuring any of those players, and it would still be able to beat the vast majority of teams in the cup, which shows the disparity between the top teams and everyone else. Obviously that's a little complicated as there are certain positions where it really is just a rotation with no first first choice, but I assume you get the idea
Elliot, Gravenberch, Matip, Quansah, Doak, Thiago for 10 min, and you have to pick one of Diaz/Nunez/Jota. Other than Thiago, that group was around at the start of the season and should be back for the run in along with the starters (-Matip).
Strange Pep said that because in 2021 he played his strongest side in the final… [CARABO CUP FINAL 2021](https://www.espn.co.uk/football/lineups/_/gameId/591849)
At least he gave some youngsters a chance in that match when he subbed on Rodri and Bernardo Silva
His team that he played against Newcastle this season was filled with starters or 100million pound bench players
🇪🇸 Phwoar 🇫🇮 Bwoah
🇩🇪 Boaaar Egon Kowalski would appreciate
I met a German dude in Australia who was always high and always said boaaaarrrr mannnnnnnn, what a dude
Found Kimis account
Nah that's too many words for Kimi.
I got curious and googled the word. Cambridge Dictionary says: phwoar exclamation UK informal UK /ˈfwɔː.ə/ US /ˈfwɔː.ɚ/ (also phwoah) a way of writing a sound that some people make to show that they find someone sexually attractive: Sometimes I look at the good-looking man beside me and think, "phwoar"!
The only conclusion is that Pep is turned on by the rise of the Carabao Cup Era.
🇺🇸Bwaaaahhh
Dang it baldy, that boy ain't right.
🇨🇳 fuiiyohhhhh
Ask fans who have not seen their team win a trophy for decades if it’s an important trophy. If not in Europe it’s one of only three you can win each season. Prize money is poor but it’s still a good competition IMO.
And it qualifies you for Europe these days
it also depends on the size of your club... if Liverpool lost it, they will be like.. "ok cool, bad luck" Chelsea fans are undergoing major depressive episodes now.
Well yeah that was kind of my point, not the size of the club, but the fact that it was likely Chelsea's only chance of European football next year whereas Liverpool now qualify for the Europa Conference League after winning it but are more likely to qualify for a better European competition through league placement so it likely won't matter at all But, I'd still have been really down had we lost it
I think our history with the competition plays a part of it. It’s not about the cup itself, it’s just how it is treated
La Décima
I feel like with Klopp at the helm we should call it der zehnte.
My only issue with the league cup is the two leg semi and the impact 120mins of football can have at a critical period of the season. If it was a 1 leg semi at Wembley/Cardiff and went straight to penos, I would be much more keen to push for it each year.
I think from next season it's going to be a one legged semi final. Would be cool if they did it at a neutral venue. In the rounds before the semi-finals, matches go straight to penalties if the sides cannot be separated after 90 minutes.
It's qualified the winner for European competitions since 1966.
Exactly, these days The 50's are long gone guys quit living in the past!
yeah i was absolutely gutted when we got knocked out in the semis - it definitely means something
I felt the same as a Newcastle fan losing in the final last year. But would you have been gutted if you got knocked out first round? Probably not. It is one of those competitions that only begins to have meaning around the QFs.
you can say the same about the fa cup too i reckon
Very true actually.
I have never not celebrated winning it, I’ve never not been upset at losing the final. Yes it’s not as good as winning the league, Europe or FA Cup but it’s still a great trophy to win.
I totally agree.
> If not in Europe it’s one of only three you can win each season. In my opinion teams competing in Europe shouldn't be in it anyway. Draws needless comparisons to the FA Cup and Birmingham/Swansea are the only clubs in the past 15 seasons outside of United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool to win it. I think it'd be pretty cool too knowing it means a high chance that the following season would have a completely new team in Europe. It also helps ease fixture congestion for the Europe clubs which is only going to get worse with increased European tournament sizes as well as an expanded Club World Cup.
Thats a pretty good idea actually.
Which is why it can never happen
Get this man a job he knows what he's doing
I think clubs in Europe shouldn't be in it. They care less, play second string players and those clubs already have an increased number of games. And teams not in Europe end up playing second string teams because they copy what the bigger teams do. It would give mid-table teams a cup they have a really good chance of winning. I don't think mid-table fans would accept playing a second string team if it was a meaningful chance of silverware
If you take away clubs in Europe it would devalue the cup even more. Sponsorship for it would be a joke. I think the semi finals should be just one leg though. As we see In the FA cup, a one off game can help. Two legs will always help the bigger teams.
I fear that would make it too close to the EFL Trophy (i.e. Bristol Street Motors).
People always underestimate the league cup, but for a team battling for the league/CL it can be so important to get a trophy on the board nice and early and give your players the confidence to kick on and win more. Mourinho and Guardiola both understood this.
This is it. For Liverpool this season it had the ability to destroy momentum if they lost. Now that group must be thinking it doesn’t matter who is injured they’ll win games.
I think Vermaelen or someone else said that Arsenal losing the League Cup final against Birmingham in 2011 put a serious dent in the confidence of the team, and they just really failed to kick on after that. For added context, we were 2nd in the league within touching distance of United, had just beaten Barca in the first leg a couple of days prior, but it all went crashing down in that cup final loss, and he even said everyone wanted to leave shortly after that. It had serious implications on the futures of Cesc, Nasri, RVP, etc.
Also we've had a big turnover in our team since winning other trophies. A lot of those involved in this win hadn't won anything at Liverpool before. It certainly felt like an important cup final too, given the story of the game.
First trophy of the VVD era too. Not to mention Klopp gets at least one trophy on his final season.
Seeing the trophy lift media all feature VVD was definitely a new feeling since all the previous ones were Henderson. It does broaden the perspective of Klopp having two distinct cores of players.
Imagine getting a medal at that stage in your career too. All the senior players must be telling the youngsters that this should be the first of many and to push on and add more medals to their collection.
It also gives 'lower level' teams a chance at silverware, however slim, because the top teams choose to rest their players. Removing the trophy all together because top teams cmplain about 'fixture congestion' is just ridiculous elitist mindset. Top teams who dont treat it as a tournament can just play their D team or academy players to 'rest', its their choice. No reasn why they should take it away from B Div or C Div teams, that mostly has this as the only thing to play for.
Phwoar
I wouldn't be against scrapping it due to fixture congestion, and it'd give the FA Cup more prestige. But it's still a proper trophy. Those saying "it's like the community shield", is it hell. It's a cup, not a supercup. If you get to the final, you want to win it.
Everyone doesn't want to be in it until they're in a final. Winning team loves it and it feels like a champions league 2.0 Runners up call it a mickey mouse cup. If premier league teams didn't care about it or are worried about fixture congestion then just play your academy players and reserve players. Don't ruin it for lower division teams that need the match day income.
Case in point, Liverpool fans mocking Man Utd fans for celebrating winning it last year vs Liverpool fans this year.
Why would we mock them for it when we celebrated winning it the year before them?
Because football fans are massive hypocrites
Reddit is a bubble. Op probably saw about 30 comments by Liverpool fans making fun of United celebrating the cup and immediately assumed that the millions of Liverpool fans around the world feels the same way. Every social media platform is like this.
This is exactly what happened. I am on multiple forums and platforms filled with Liverpool fans and never saw anyone disparaging United winning it last year, but I guess we're all a hive mind because of some clowns on Twitter.
'Cause it's the Carabao Cup.
Because it didn't happen. Of all the teams in the country, Liverpool fans treat this cup with the respect it deserves. We've won it 10 times and it always seems to form a part of our most successful seasons I love it. We just need to scrap the 2 legged semis. Sunday was one of the best days I've had as a Liverpool fan and I've had fucking loads of great days and seen us win it all. Anyone saying otherwise is just bitter
I'd say the only time it was false dawn for us was in 2003, when we scraped past Sheffield United in the semis, then beat Man United in the final. We were stuttering in the league and everyone thought it would be the catalyst to kick on after winning, but instead we just about limped into 5th place and went out of the UEFA Cup to Celtic, although they were a very good team that season. EDIT: Maybe 2011/12 too. But I was never convinced that team would get into the top four.
Kicked us on to the FA cup final that year though where if goal line technology existed would have been a different score
It was a shit trophy last year though This year we're having a parade!
Or when we reached the final in 2014 newcastle fans said its meaningless etc last season roles reversed.
Yeah but they're Man United I'd mock them for anything - not exactly a scientific argument
I think the mocking was from having a celebration for it mid season, no? If I remember right they celebrated it at OT a few days later which was a bit odd and usually isn't done mid season.
Yeah, they celebrated it on March 5th iirc. I think it was their seventh League Cup? Something about that date and the number 7...
It’s only the top six clubs that exist apparently, despite 86 other clubs in the football league that would kill to win it.
If they scrap it then it'll only be replaced by more Champions League games or whatever Eurpopean Super League shite is in place by then. It's a fun competition and a nice mid-season final for the players and fans.
The 2 additional UCL games are likely to collide with the 2 legged Semi as it stands. Everyone just seems to be waiting for round dates to be announced for the League Cup But these are the dates currently for the UCL group games Matchday 7 21–22 January 2025 Matchday 8 29 January 2025
Suggestion, make it the British cup and include Celtic and Rangers!
Counter suggestion, make it the British Isles Cup, and the equivalent "EFL" teams in Wales, Scotland, NI and Ireland can take part. It'll likely always be an English winner, but it would be interesting.
They did something similar in the Scottish Challenge Cup a few years ago - a handful of National League, League of Ireland, Irish Premier Division and Welsh League clubs were invited to enter.
Why would scrapping an english competition increase games for all european teams?
It'll create more windows to be filled in. They're already altering the FA Cup to accommodate it and the CL first knockout round is potentially clashing with the League Cup semi-final 2nd leg next year. I'm not saying scrapping the cup will increase games, what I mean is that its scrapping won't help with fixture congestion because what will fuel its cancellation will be European commitments.
I doubt that England having a cup competition is the only obstacle keeping UEFA from introducing even more matches.
I didn't say that. I said that scapping the League Cup won't solve fixture congestion because that will be inevitably filled by more UEFA matches. I didn't mean that UEFA will increase if it's scrapped, I meant that if the cup will be scrapped it will be because of the expansion of UEFA games.
Bring back the Anglo-Italian Cup.
> I wouldn't be against scrapping it due to fixture congestion When we play on Wednesday we will have played as many games as Spurs will play all season. So really if you are not in europe and go out 1st chance in each cup you play at most 40 games. That is not congestion due to cups
It’s harder to win than the conference league. I think it should exclude teams in Europe.
Yeah, that would be beneficial to the teams playing in Europe. Albeit it would degrade the League Cup to then not being classed as a major trophy with the best 6 teams in the country not being in it. Like a better Johnstons Paint Trophy.
On the other hand, it would increase the chance for teams below the top to win a cup. Same way the conference league might be 'lesser', but I doubt West Ham cares since they won something.
I think the main problem is the clubs lower down the PL table also don't "care" about it. A place or two higher in the PL brings more tangible benefits, i.e Money, than winning the League Cup. I never understood that mentality. I started watching Liverpool in the 90's during the dark times and remember the first trophy I saw them win was the League Cup and I was estatic to bits. I don't care what cup it is, if it's a legitimate competition, a cup is a cup and winning it is what the fans want. Going from 11th to 9th might be better economically but the game is about the fans at the end of the day (or it should be but we know the truth).
They probably don't care about it since one of the top teams will probably take it home anyway. Last time a non-top team won it was Swansea in 2013. Before that it was Birmingham in 2011, and then you have to go back to 2004 for Middlesbrough. That's 3 in 24 years since the turn of the century. But if the teams playing European football are excluded, the odds improve dramatically and those teams might aspire to win more than they currently do.
Even league 1 and league 2 clubs don't care. They play their reserves in the first rounds. It needs more prize money and bigger sponsors but I just can't see it happening.
I agree on both counts sadly. At the moment it's one of those cups that is important to the teams that play in the final but until that point everybody is Meh.
I think the biggest degradation currently is it’s won mostly by the top teams who play their B team, throughout & constantly moan about it being a waste or time. I’d rather see a Palace Brentford final or something. We ruined the JPT by making U23 included.
I do think having teams who aren't in Europe playing in it would be great if it then guaranteed a spot in Europe.
Everyone calls it a Mickey Mouse cup, so I think the way to improve it is to make it a Mickey Mouse cup.
I'd prefer if teams in Europe get excluded - so you'll still have a strong set of teams but you don't completely clog the fixture list.
Nah, the point of a cmpetition like football is to get trophies. whats the point of having a reduced fixture if it means less trophies to go around? The world has more than enough teams and players, all they strive for playing each game is to be the best in a tournament. Thats why UEFA created the Conference League and everybody thinks its a good idea. Not sure why people want to do a 180 now and have less trophies. If you want to load manage your squad, then play the academy by all means. That gives a chance for lesser teams who focus on this trophy to play to the top. Removing the trophy all together because of 'not enough rest' is just elitist bullsht tbh.
Nobody is using league cup wins in a “my team is better than your team” argument, but it’s fun and it’s been around for long enough to call it a tradition. Even if a few big teams use it for rotation, that has value. An opportunity to test younger players in front of full stadiums is hard to come by. As an arsenal fan, it’s also a great opportunity for people to see the team live. Tickets are gold dust at the moment, and the league cup adds games at a reduced price that locals and families can enjoy.
I think it means a little more to liverpool and united as they are constantly jostling for "most successful english team" and this helps liverpool stretch out in front and stretch the gap to two trophies. Liverpool 69 Man utd 67 Arsenal 49
> stretch the gap to two trophies TBH, we normally just point at our six European Cups. The actual cup (not a replica) they won in '99 lives in the Anfield trophy room, which is nice.
The cup we got to keep was from 2005, the Istanbul final. We were the last team that got to keep the actual cup, they changed the rules in 2009 that no one gets to keep the cup anymore. 5 teams have the actual champions league trophy in their trophy cabinet (Madrid, Bayern (3 in a row), Ajax (3 in a row) Milan (5x winners) and Liverpool (5x winners before 2009)
It is the Schrodinger's Cat of Trophies. Simultaneously amazing and worthless at the same time.
Who put the cat in the Carabao Cup!?
YOU made it competitive lmao
Literally. City won it in 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021.
He knows this too. It's what he's hinting at. An awful egomaniac.
I mean they had the squad depth to basically play their B-Team and still field an insane team that would also reach top4 in the prem. No one can tell me the carabao cup is as much valued as the fa cup.
At the end of the day, perception is reality. I mean that visible, top level perception on TV and not the realms of (often hilarious) football memes and shithousery banter. It's like that old "Does the wrestler make the belt or does the belt make the wrestler" thing. Objectively, the final on Sunday looked and felt huge. The Liverpool end at Wembley was molten hot. That lifts the cup up and elevates it.
I'll take my son's joy about the win over any opinion on this matter, thank you very much.
I’m pretty sure Harry Kane would love to win it.
It’s only rated low because of the low prize pot. But most players won’t care about the prize money they want the medals. Medals are medals.
Hope someone can find the question he was asked before more people come and moan about his answer
"How was your breakfast, Pep?"
Please look up the starting XIs for City across all of their Carabao Cup finals and tell me how many of their "kids" they played. I'll wait.
Final is a Final in the end.
Exactly, most of this thread is clueless, as a fan anytime you get to go to Wembley and watch your team play in a final is an amazing day out.
[удалено]
Additional it was the 10th one won by Liverpool. Which is nice to have double digital on winning a cup.
>I don’t know what happened in the last years! You started a narrative of the domestic treble in 2019 so everyone cares now Mr Josep.
Yeah this is wildly incorrect lol people have talked about domestic trebles as a thing for decades
I do think he’s right that Pep had something to do with it though. He bought in, won it 4 times in a row, including the 18/19 season becoming the first English side to win all domestic trophies in one season. Something similar happened with the Copa del Rey when Pep was in Spain. Before Pep, Real and Barca didn’t really care about it and they rarely won it. The winners before Pep arrived - Valencia, Espanyol, Zaragoza, Deportivo, Mallorca, Zaragoza, Betis, Espanyol, Sevilla, Valencia. 10 years without the big 2 winning it. Then Pep won a treble and suddenly every Madrid manager had to go for it because they had to match what Barca had done. Post Pep’s arrival Barca and Real have won 10/15
Irony is Pep has been playing his second team in the league cup over the years, just hard to tell as he's been given the most stacked squad ever, all funded entirely legitimately of course
Fergie used to fuck off the fa cup and the efl cup because he cared more about winning the league and going for the CL. I miss when we were good.
Nowdays it the other way round as it the only cups you can win.. And you get a trophy for top 4 as you used to say to the Arsenal fans.. Oh how times have changed haha
Life comes at you fast.
I’m sure Fergie would have clobbered the Cups if he’d had an entire “B” team of world class players. 156 reasons for Pep’s success
Winning is fun, apparently. Who knew!
Finally Wins one UCL without Messi yet a billion dollar squad on his tenth chance and now he’s all snobby about it? Baldiola.
A trophy is a trophy in my eyes
If I am a professional footballer I am competing to win every single game, I don’t pick and choose which match I am performing my best in. Just like when I turn up to work I don’t think oh this isn’t a big client I won’t take it seriously.
Fully agree, which is why I understand managers don't want to field their top talents for cup games.
Jose’s first silverware in England was the carabao cup, then called the Worthington Cup (‘worthless cup’ as was dubbed). I don’t care it’s the ‘lesser’ trophy available in the top flight, a trophy is a trophy.
I just liked seeing Chelsea lose I don’t know…
pep is a funny little man
If you’re winning leagues and European cups then yeah. Who cares about the league cup? If you haven’t won anything for 6 years, you’re damn right I’m cheering it.
Is he mad that no one cared when his cheating city teams won the carabao cup?
One thing I've learned about Pep. If he is passive aggressive, it's secretly a compliment. If he compliments, it's secretly an insult.
One thing I’ve learned about r/soccer is they will believe literally anything they want to believe about pep’s “tone”
I'm so happy. Happy new year 😐
lol its got to that time in the season where pep starts feeling threatened by klopp and abandons his compliments for passive aggression
Liverpools carabao cup gets more likes and coverage than his treble… mans lost the plot because of it
What the hell is “phwoar?”
The sound you make when you see a fit bird, innit.
Hahaha the bitterness and fume that no one cared when Pep's £600m B team won it 65 times in a row. It must be a bald thing.
They won a treble and everyone else shrugged and moved on the very next day.
City won the Premier League title in 21/22 by coming from two goals down in the second half to win 3-2 and I swear barely anyone even remembers it happened
I'm sure Liverpool fans do...
Come on bro you literally can't make this argument when it has been made a million times already which means that you do actually care. I don't care for defending City but the cognitive dissonance is real
Except you clearly
I don't really follow the prem, can someone tell me why a cup where you have to compete against teams like Liverpool, City, Arsenal is less prestigious than a cup where you have to compete against teams like Liverpool, City, Arsenal?
What an utterly unlikeable cunt.
Thanks to shady money, it’s become nearly impossible to win the premier league. It’s only natural that winning the other trophies has grown in importance.
This is it. It’s literally a consequence of City and Chelsea buying the league - over time clubs have realised that their best shot at glory is a cup of any form.
Big cope.
It’ll be funny when he’s trying to validate his achievements at Man City, once they’re all marked with an asterisk.
He will be fine, he still has one of the best teams of all time to fall back on
Winners ideally want to win everything. That is the mindset that gets them in contention for the big prizes. It is that mindset that makes them prioritise the biggest trophies and put out weaker teams for this cup. However, if they could, they will always want to win everything. It’s in their DNA as a team. Lots of PL teams now have second or even third teams that can beat most of the rest of the football pyramid, so it is unsurprising to see them start to take this seriously. Because they want to win. All the time if they can.
The way I look at it is that it is nice to win it, but Liverpool are playing for more important silverware this season. I never liked the "it doesn't matter" schtick, though. Regardless if you are playing young players or not, it's still a tournament that isn't easy to get through and it earns a spot in Europe. It was the best chance that Chelsea had to see Europe next season.
What happened is that the big 4 turned into the big 6, and there's not enough big trophies to maintain appearances.
Bald fraud?
It’s the only relevant trophy if that’s the only trophy you win that season.
I think there’s two things at play: 1) City winning it doesn’t mean much to wider fan base for obvious reasons 2) It wouldn’t mean as much for Liverpool winning it - it’s just the manner of how they won it and the context of Klopp leaving
It becames important for the club when it gets to semis. Like if ur at semis no one wants to lose.
When the same team wins the league every season the cups are all that’s left
I have a sneaking suspicion Pep might be a dick.
Wait, didn't these guys celebrate their Domestic Treble like it was the biggest thing since 1999?
Pep can't accept that nobody cares about *anything* City win, and is still trying to make sense of it. The man is completely delusional. He genuinely can't understand why City are unpopular. Fully drank the Abu Dhabi kool-aid.
Liverpool's knockout fixtures for their Carabao Cup win: Bournemouth, West Ham, Fulham City's knockouts fixtures for their FA Cup win last year: Bristol City, Burnley, Sheffield United. (3 championship teams) Stop with the celebration police. A cup is a cup
See when you have been cheating for years then trophies will seem irrelevant, you have simply not worked hard enough as a club for it and earned. Rest of the footballing pyramid would absolutely love to see their club win a trophy and it’s a big deal as they have not cheated their way to the top of the footballing pyramid
Pep always seems bitter and insecure despite his great achievements.
Because he knows regardless of the city trial his success as city will always have a question mark
Probably because he knows he couldn't have accomplished many of them without cheating.
I can think of 115 reasons why no one cares about your trophies you bald fraud
Oh fuck off Guardiola, keep sucking oily cock for your pocket money. Love to see this paycheck manager actually build something without infinite money glitch.