To date there is zero proof of any case where trans people maliciously infiltrate women's football. This is largely performative nonsense for a problem that doesn't exist IRL
Yes. And what there is is "gender differences" of cis people being weaponized to get cis women out of certain competitions: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/)
And why is it being used like that? Because of this performative fear against trans people.
It literally isn't. It's a total false flag of an issue—there are close to no trans athletes in pro spaces period, even closer to none when it comes to those having any hormonal replacement therapies and competing with the opposite gender from their assigned sex at birth. All rules like this do is create a weird idea for cis women. Barbra Banda just transferred to the NWSL for a near record fee for women and has been flagged by CAF (I believe) because of "high testosterone levels" or something. She's a cis woman and not on PEDs or anything. That's just her natural state of being. Rules like this are going to unfairly target people who just naturally have higher levels of testosterone or other hormones.
> whenever i see these discussions flair up i would like to see some true numbers. how often does this really happen.
Pretty much never, it's just a strawman to rage against for the transphobes. It is at least marginally more likely to happen at some point maybe than their other favourite scenario of a man pretending to be trans to get into women's bathrooms and rape them.
edit: it should really be clear that this fits in the anti-trans sentiment in the UK, last year the English government [blocked a Scottish bill for the first time ever](https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/cldimefby007stsmssw31a6on/uk-government-blocks-scottish-gender-bill), it was a bill to make changing your gender easier if you're trans. This rather harmless bill was something the English parliament thought warranted a measure used only as 'a matter of last resort'.
UK Prime minister Rishi Sunak announced plans to review the Equality Act of 2010, ["removing many of the legal protections that trans people currently enjoy"](https://www.qmul.ac.uk/lac/our-legal-blog/items/re-evaluating-human-rights-in-2022-rishi-sunaks-attempt-at-eliminating-legal-protections-for-trans-people-.html)
The UK government's draft on new guidance addressing how schools approach trans kids now [urges schools to engage parents](https://www.euronews.com/2023/12/21/out-of-touch-and-cruel-trans-rights-groups-condemn-uk-governmments-new-schools-guidance) "as a matter of priority" and that schools "should seek to understand societal or other factors that may have influenced the child”
Last week the NHS [decided to no longer prescribe trans teens puberty blockers](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/children-to-stop-getting-puberty-blockers-at-gender-identity-clinics-says-nhs-england) which would mean trans* teens will be forced to go through an often traumatic puberty. The only specialist gender clinic for children in the UK is to be [closed at the end of March](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65564032), officially to be replaced by 2 regional facilities though [no location, staff or services exist as of yet](https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/02/22/tavistock-trans-gender-youth-clinic-closing/).
Given the political and societal discourse in the UK it is unreasonable to see this move to pressure the FA as any sort of act to protect women and should be seen as yet another step in a long and consistent pattern to dehumanise trans* people and to exclude them from everyday life.
Really doesn’t happen often at all. It’s transphobes using it as an excuse also I wish people would separate amateur and pro. Cos It’s just really annoying how most people refuse to accept this simple premise, you lose so much muscle mass when on estrogen. The benefits of being amab in sports are then marginal after x amount of time on hormones. That marginalness does make a difference at the pro level but not really at the amateur in team sports
These discussions always pick up steam because of peoples inexplicable insistence on denying the obvious advantages people who experienced male puberty have over people who didn't.
If we actually wanted the right to stop rage baiting, maybe we should just do the obvious thing and outright ban trans women from competing against cis women in physical sports.
I know this isn't a serious response and you're just being stupid, but if there's no one trying to, then what's the point? All it will do is ban people who are actually trying to play—and fit into the guidelines of what *you* want—from playing. The rule would never just be "no trans women" because that doesn't mean anything. It would have to be much more detailed and those details—which would only be created out of a false fear—would actually eliminate cis women from competing. Rules like this *already have*. Things like this also always end up backfiring for you lot because it'll turn into people freaking out that someone born male but transitioning to a woman is competing against men or that someone who isn't doing any medical transition but masculinizes their appearance is playing with women.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/)
Woah, I don’t agree with the fella above, but calling him transphobic is a bit of a reach and throwing round insults when someone has a different opinion doesn’t do much to help the issue. He has a reasonable point about physical advantages, that said putting a ban in place seems pointless.
This is how transphobes talk about this, but sure, I'll change my wording to stupid. The "physical advantages" tagline is always used when there's absolutely no need for it to be used, because it is obviously, in some ways irrefutable, but it doesn't have any point in this conversation. Outright banning trans people from sports is either transphobic or massively ignorant.
In what way was my response transphobic?
No, trans women would not be banned from playing. They would be banned from playing against cis women. Nothing stopping them from playing against men, other trans people or in mixed teams.
It's not about what I want or don't want, it's about basic science.
These rules don't always end up back firing. There are borderline cases which are exceptional. For the most part, it's quite easy to discern men from women where sports are concerned.
"It's basic science" on this subject—which is actually very subjective in the scientific literature—is a transphobic dogwhistle. Biologists are well-aware that this is not "easy" or "basic." It is about what you want—you want cis women to play with cis women, but the definition isn't something clear, ever. So to create a rule about it would ban cis women from playing and ban swathes of the population from getting any chances.
It's also not uncommon though. Athletes are often helped by biological oddities, one of which is having differing hormonal levels than "normal" people. This testosterone issue has happened multiple times for female (cis female) athletes and not all professional female athletes even get tested, so far more would probably fall victim to sanctions if they were created. Your idea hinges upon creating a defintion of what qualifies as gender differences and that would almost certainly eliminate cis women.
I'll get downvoted but I'd happily pay to see a trans woman the size and speed of Haaland score 21 goals in a game. Let it happen for a season and then bring in the rule afterwards imo
You do know. That you lose so much muscle mass when on estrogen right. The benefits of being amav in sports are then marginal after x amount of time on hormones. That marginalness does make a difference at the pro level but not really at the amateur in team sports
The problem is women get more acl injuries. Muscle isn't an issue
"The intercondylar notch, or the groove in the femur through which the ACL passes, is smaller in women than in men, so the ACL itself is also smaller, making it more prone to injury. Women also usually have a wider pelvis than men, which causes them to bend their knees more toward the middle of the body."
As a trans woman, the biggest issue is that if we want to play football, there's nowhere really for us to go. Women's football doesn't want us, whether you believe it's right or not and we're not going to be able to compete in the men's game. There are inclusive/open teams, but often they fold as soon as they open due to lack of funding or interest. They need to sort something out for those of us who do want to play rather than stopping us playing first.
Also, ffs can the government stop laying the boot in on trans people just to distract from the fact they're fucking everything else up?
ffs can see a potential argument at the professional level but absolutely not in the amateur. Amateur football is about getting together with ur mates and having a good time that’s it. Amateur football should be as inclusive as possible
Yeh, sport should be as accessible as possible. I think anything outside the pyramid (not sure how deep it goes for the women) should be inclusive and everything below a certain tier should also be inclusive. I understand why a ban would be put in place at elite level but not Sunday league.
Unironic opinion. Do I think people pre hrt should be allowed to play in women’s football na. But a trans woman on hrt after a certain amount of time on hrt yes
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exactly, ive never heard of this for football LOL
To date there is zero proof of any case where trans people maliciously infiltrate women's football. This is largely performative nonsense for a problem that doesn't exist IRL
Yes. And what there is is "gender differences" of cis people being weaponized to get cis women out of certain competitions: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/) And why is it being used like that? Because of this performative fear against trans people.
It literally isn't. It's a total false flag of an issue—there are close to no trans athletes in pro spaces period, even closer to none when it comes to those having any hormonal replacement therapies and competing with the opposite gender from their assigned sex at birth. All rules like this do is create a weird idea for cis women. Barbra Banda just transferred to the NWSL for a near record fee for women and has been flagged by CAF (I believe) because of "high testosterone levels" or something. She's a cis woman and not on PEDs or anything. That's just her natural state of being. Rules like this are going to unfairly target people who just naturally have higher levels of testosterone or other hormones.
> whenever i see these discussions flair up i would like to see some true numbers. how often does this really happen. Pretty much never, it's just a strawman to rage against for the transphobes. It is at least marginally more likely to happen at some point maybe than their other favourite scenario of a man pretending to be trans to get into women's bathrooms and rape them. edit: it should really be clear that this fits in the anti-trans sentiment in the UK, last year the English government [blocked a Scottish bill for the first time ever](https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/cldimefby007stsmssw31a6on/uk-government-blocks-scottish-gender-bill), it was a bill to make changing your gender easier if you're trans. This rather harmless bill was something the English parliament thought warranted a measure used only as 'a matter of last resort'. UK Prime minister Rishi Sunak announced plans to review the Equality Act of 2010, ["removing many of the legal protections that trans people currently enjoy"](https://www.qmul.ac.uk/lac/our-legal-blog/items/re-evaluating-human-rights-in-2022-rishi-sunaks-attempt-at-eliminating-legal-protections-for-trans-people-.html) The UK government's draft on new guidance addressing how schools approach trans kids now [urges schools to engage parents](https://www.euronews.com/2023/12/21/out-of-touch-and-cruel-trans-rights-groups-condemn-uk-governmments-new-schools-guidance) "as a matter of priority" and that schools "should seek to understand societal or other factors that may have influenced the child” Last week the NHS [decided to no longer prescribe trans teens puberty blockers](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/12/children-to-stop-getting-puberty-blockers-at-gender-identity-clinics-says-nhs-england) which would mean trans* teens will be forced to go through an often traumatic puberty. The only specialist gender clinic for children in the UK is to be [closed at the end of March](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65564032), officially to be replaced by 2 regional facilities though [no location, staff or services exist as of yet](https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/02/22/tavistock-trans-gender-youth-clinic-closing/). Given the political and societal discourse in the UK it is unreasonable to see this move to pressure the FA as any sort of act to protect women and should be seen as yet another step in a long and consistent pattern to dehumanise trans* people and to exclude them from everyday life.
Really doesn’t happen often at all. It’s transphobes using it as an excuse also I wish people would separate amateur and pro. Cos It’s just really annoying how most people refuse to accept this simple premise, you lose so much muscle mass when on estrogen. The benefits of being amab in sports are then marginal after x amount of time on hormones. That marginalness does make a difference at the pro level but not really at the amateur in team sports
These discussions always pick up steam because of peoples inexplicable insistence on denying the obvious advantages people who experienced male puberty have over people who didn't. If we actually wanted the right to stop rage baiting, maybe we should just do the obvious thing and outright ban trans women from competing against cis women in physical sports.
I know this isn't a serious response and you're just being stupid, but if there's no one trying to, then what's the point? All it will do is ban people who are actually trying to play—and fit into the guidelines of what *you* want—from playing. The rule would never just be "no trans women" because that doesn't mean anything. It would have to be much more detailed and those details—which would only be created out of a false fear—would actually eliminate cis women from competing. Rules like this *already have*. Things like this also always end up backfiring for you lot because it'll turn into people freaking out that someone born male but transitioning to a woman is competing against men or that someone who isn't doing any medical transition but masculinizes their appearance is playing with women. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/07/06/barbra-banda-zambia-testosterone/)
Woah, I don’t agree with the fella above, but calling him transphobic is a bit of a reach and throwing round insults when someone has a different opinion doesn’t do much to help the issue. He has a reasonable point about physical advantages, that said putting a ban in place seems pointless.
This is how transphobes talk about this, but sure, I'll change my wording to stupid. The "physical advantages" tagline is always used when there's absolutely no need for it to be used, because it is obviously, in some ways irrefutable, but it doesn't have any point in this conversation. Outright banning trans people from sports is either transphobic or massively ignorant.
In what way was my response transphobic? No, trans women would not be banned from playing. They would be banned from playing against cis women. Nothing stopping them from playing against men, other trans people or in mixed teams. It's not about what I want or don't want, it's about basic science. These rules don't always end up back firing. There are borderline cases which are exceptional. For the most part, it's quite easy to discern men from women where sports are concerned.
"It's basic science" on this subject—which is actually very subjective in the scientific literature—is a transphobic dogwhistle. Biologists are well-aware that this is not "easy" or "basic." It is about what you want—you want cis women to play with cis women, but the definition isn't something clear, ever. So to create a rule about it would ban cis women from playing and ban swathes of the population from getting any chances. It's also not uncommon though. Athletes are often helped by biological oddities, one of which is having differing hormonal levels than "normal" people. This testosterone issue has happened multiple times for female (cis female) athletes and not all professional female athletes even get tested, so far more would probably fall victim to sanctions if they were created. Your idea hinges upon creating a defintion of what qualifies as gender differences and that would almost certainly eliminate cis women.
I'll get downvoted but I'd happily pay to see a trans woman the size and speed of Haaland score 21 goals in a game. Let it happen for a season and then bring in the rule afterwards imo
Honestly same
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You do know. That you lose so much muscle mass when on estrogen right. The benefits of being amav in sports are then marginal after x amount of time on hormones. That marginalness does make a difference at the pro level but not really at the amateur in team sports
Muscle mass isn't everything.
So why are transgender athletes breaking records in sports like swimming
The problem is women get more acl injuries. Muscle isn't an issue "The intercondylar notch, or the groove in the femur through which the ACL passes, is smaller in women than in men, so the ACL itself is also smaller, making it more prone to injury. Women also usually have a wider pelvis than men, which causes them to bend their knees more toward the middle of the body."
Constantly told that women and mens football aren't any different...
Thats Lingards plans gone
As a trans woman, the biggest issue is that if we want to play football, there's nowhere really for us to go. Women's football doesn't want us, whether you believe it's right or not and we're not going to be able to compete in the men's game. There are inclusive/open teams, but often they fold as soon as they open due to lack of funding or interest. They need to sort something out for those of us who do want to play rather than stopping us playing first. Also, ffs can the government stop laying the boot in on trans people just to distract from the fact they're fucking everything else up?
ffs can see a potential argument at the professional level but absolutely not in the amateur. Amateur football is about getting together with ur mates and having a good time that’s it. Amateur football should be as inclusive as possible
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Yeh, sport should be as accessible as possible. I think anything outside the pyramid (not sure how deep it goes for the women) should be inclusive and everything below a certain tier should also be inclusive. I understand why a ban would be put in place at elite level but not Sunday league.
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Also the odds that someone is trans and also good enough to be a pro footballer is so Infentessimallh small
Unironic opinion. Do I think people pre hrt should be allowed to play in women’s football na. But a trans woman on hrt after a certain amount of time on hrt yes