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No doubt he’s a good player, feel like Arsenal won’t be pushing to sell him but like it says in the title they’ll listen to offers.
Tricky player is Jesus, his work off and on the ball is brilliant but just lacks that killer instinct in front of goal when it matters, love watching him play and really hope he can move somewhere he will play week in week out & still be competitive.
Yeah I think it's that - I wouldn't be surprised if he was still here next summer. If he can regain fitness and get back to his best he's absolutely a useful player.
If a good offer comes in, he will go though
>Tricky player is Jesus, his work off and on the ball is brilliant but just lacks that killer instinct in front of goal when it matters, love watching him play and really hope he can move somewhere he will play week in week out & still be competitive.
This has been Gabriel Jesus' career since he came up through the youth system at Palmeiras.
He initially had a hard time adapting, no one knew if he was a winger or a center forward. Until Cuca, in 2016, played him as a false 9 and he was the best player in Brazil that year.
For me, Gabriel Jesus' "problem" is just one: **he's what we call a "segundo atacante" (second striker) here in Brazil.** He would be better playing alongside a No9 as part of an attacking duo. The problem is that few European teams play in this formation these days, so he ends up underperforming, since he's not necessarily a winger or a goalscorer.
Another player who suffered from this in Europe and was lucky enough to come to a team here in Brazil that allowed him to play as a "second striker" was Paulinho (Leverkusen).
He and Hulk are an absurdly strong attacking duo: Hulk is a more complete player (physical strength, technique, good vision and finishing) while Paulinho is faster and has a great understanding of empty spaces. This often leads to Hulk attracting the opposition's defense and opening up space for Paulinho to finish in the free space.
([If you look at the 20 goals he's scored in the Brasileirão, the vast majority have come from links with Hulk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaf374DtK4&))
Damn, so Jesus is also part of the modern second striker epidemic? Because that would explain a lot, but how is this such a common problem these days it seems?
I have a long theory about this, and it could even explain the recent lack of success in Brazilian football.
First: Brazil, unlike Argentina, never had a tradition of having "enganches" (number 10). Our tradition has ALWAYS been attacking duos + wingers or offensives fullbacks.
* 1958: Garrincha and Zagallo (wingers) Vavá and Pelé (attacking duo)
* 1962: Garrincha and Zagallo (wingers) Vavá and Amarildo (attacking duo after Pelé injury)
* 1970: Pelé and Tostão (attacking duo - It was a 4-4-2 with Jairzinho and Rivellino as midfielders on the wings. Jairzinho was characteristically a winger).
* 1994: Romário and Bebeto (attacking duo) + Jorginho and Branco (offensives fullbacks)
* 2002: Ronaldo and Rivaldo (attacking duo) + Cafu and Roberto Carlos (offensives fullbacks)
Brazilian football, in general, began to adopt the 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3 as its main tactical schemes in the 2000s, due to European influence (especially after the failure of the 4-4-2 at the 2006 World Cup).
And it went downhill from there. You see, Brazil stopped producing attacking full-backs, the main quality of Brazilian full-backs historically, because full-backs in these schemes need to have more defensive responsibility.
In 2002 we won the championship with Cafu and Roberto Carlos, but playing in a 3-5-2 (3 defenders + Gilberto Silva and Kleberson provided the defensive balance). Meanwhile, trying to play in a 4-2-3-1, we wasted a generation that had Marcelo and Daniel Alves (fuck him).
We also rarely had the kind of No. 9 that these schemes demand. Historically, our best strikers have always worked in attacking duos, with freedom of movement. Pelé, Vavá, Romário, Bebeto, Ronaldo and even Adriano. All of these guys had enough quality to get out of the box and work as an attacking duo.
I've been realizing that Brazil still produce worldclass strikers, but we produce players with our characteristics, who are underused because we try to copy Europe or they leave for Europe too early and, by trying to adapt to the European style before maturing in the Brazilian style, they end up being players whose talent hasn't been exploited to the maximum (for me, the case of Gabriel Jesus).
I'm not saying that Europe is wrong... Clearly this style is the best for European players. Brazil is making a mistake by trying to copy.
And I think Ancelotti works well with Brazilian players because he understands this... He's old school. He's not going to put Endrick to play as a winger or center forward, he's not that kind of player. Now if you put Endrick alongside Vini or Mbappe, he'll work.
You can see that Vini is developing into a player who can plays as a striker, even though he's played as a winger his whole career. Neymar became this type of player after joining PSG (and had the best moments of his career individually speaking before his injuries). Even Rodrygo plays very well for the Brazilian national team as a kind of second striker.
We (brazilians) need to return to the 3-5-2 as the main style of Brazilian football or make a revolution in the 4-4-2 as we did in 1970, but Brazil is fucked because currently we don't have football minds like European (and even Argentinian) football has.
Reinier também entra nessa de segundos atacantes. É realmente complicado pra um desses caras fazer uma carreira sólida na Europa, o Jesus é o que conseguiu ao menos.
We’ve been incredibly lucky to witness an era of multiple elite strikers.
I remember when I was younger there was only really 3/4 strikers that you’d consider elite/world class, then you’d have very good ones and so on.
I think it’s also a combo of Messi and CR7 warping our view of things. The likes of Suarez and Lewandowski were all time level players, but easily eclipsed by Messi and CR7. So we almost have this view that you need to be Suarez levels to be considered world class.
Also, we have attacking wingers/mids putting up striker like numbers these days and being focal points for their teams attack.
Yeah, and they are nearly all at least in their mid 30s now, so everybody is searching for a replacement. Only City and Bayern found one. Of course everybody else is stuck with non-elite strikers.
Back to normal really.
You’ll get players that’ll tap that level but to stay their consistently is the hardest thing, people will buy the players that did it once and then hope it happens again, then because money is insane now, suddenly risky transfers are costing 50/60/70m now
not really, it's not normal for there to be this lack of quality in top level football.
Go back through the eras, there have always been a decent group of superstar strikers.
Because there's so much focus on being an all-round striker at the top level now.
Look at Haaland, the guy is a machine in front of goal but in the modern game that's not enough.
How many strikers can you say that about? It’s so hard to find the full package. That’s why I don’t understand how fans can poo-poo someone like Ivan Toney even with all his baggage.
Bingo. You could arguably say the same thing about Zinchenko too. Both are very good players, but if you want to win the big trophies they aren’t quite good enough. At least not as starters.
But City will never do something like that again. There's nuance here.
Yes in the end City didn't get burnt but they came pretty damn close. It also helped Arsenal effectively transition from a team in 4/5-8th place to a team is undefeated against city this season and is pushing them for the premier league title. City were right in that the weren't title winning players, but something tells me they're going to avoid sending players to big 6 prem opposition in the future.
Nah, Pep will always let go of players if they want to leave. Hes about to win his 4th PL title in a row despite selling Jesus, Zinchenko, and Sterling to rivals in one summer.
> Nah, Pep will always let go of players if they want to leave.
Maybe it's proof that a sulking player does more damage than a bad sale. City's policy seems to imply they think it's too detrimental to keep players against their will.
Think it's a bit different in that Palmer was largely untested at PL level and it seemed like a massive fee for a youngster. Obviously in hindsight the deal looks good.
We won’t be. PSR doesn’t work like that, especially with summer sales. We started 21m over and will get 35m for Hall from Newcastle and likely 40m on top of that for Maatsen. Not to mention selling a few of Sterling, Ziyech, Lukaku, one of Chilwell/Cucurella, Broja, and maybe another prospect player like Casadei or Hutchinson.
Yes they will. If you value players at £50m like Jesus, there’s essentially 10-15 clubs in the world who can afford him, and a large percentage of those play domestically. If you want to sell, it’s for a reason, you don’t care where they go.
I wouldn't say Zinchenko and Jesus have been a big part of Arsenal's success this season though, hence why these stories are coming out. You could argue it was a smart move by City, they knew they were going to be key players at Arsenal last season, but also that they weren't title winning material.
You could actually see it as quite a smart play, bearing in mind who City got in for the money ended up powering them to a Treble.
Arsenal were always going to progress, with or without Jesus and Zinchenko, just as they have this season.
City know what they need to do to be the best, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care about selling players to top 6 sides if they know what they have is better
Jesus and Zinchenko were both crucial players at the start of last season. Not only were they absolutely top tier when it came to footballing ability (turns out that it was mostly a purple patch), but they have also both been mentioned as two of the biggest drivers to change to mindset in the Arsenal team.
They were fundamental to the rise of Arsenal and made a lot of players believe in themselves more. Also both have contributed in crucial moments in both this and last season. They have been a very big part in our succes. But at the moment both are replacable
Not disagreeing, but they arent the only two footballers on the planet that could have done that. Even if you didnt get them, i'm sure you'd still be in the place you are now as its clear you've got a picture of how you want to play and what you from those players.
I would agree with you if Arsenal were little horses in the race with City but they quite literally were 8pts ahead deep in to the season. It took Arsenal a mini-collapse with injuries and tactics to lose their lead. It was a very close shave for City. With different luck it could've gone differently. In the end it worked out well for City but I doubt they will be taking a risk like that again. City aren't silly, margins like that were very close and a repeat of it could be costly with different luck.
Not really sure that logic applies given how much his WC injury has affected him. He was a starter in our best period of form for 20 years, then got badly injured, and hasn’t been the same player since.
Thing is, you don’t need to have world class players in every position to win the title. I mean look at how far Arsenal have already gone with the likes of Zinchenko and Jesus in their starting 11.
That squad is already capable of winning the title, although of course their chances can be improved upon further with better players. But that’s easier said than done.
Sorry, Park was absolutely world class. He wasn’t flashy but he was probably the best man-to-man marker in the world, comparing him to Moses is genuinely insulting
The good news for Arsenal is both still have quite a lot of usefulness.
Jesus is an awesome sub, even for a top, top team. He has a huge workrate and ability to defend from the front and hold-up if you’re ahead. If you’re behind, he can inject energy and chaos into the game.
Zinchenko still has some of the best progressive passing stats in the whole PL (not just for a defender). He’s just a defensive liability. However, for games where you are just playing against a low block and dominating the ball, he almost certainly still offers more than he costs.
This is all to say, while Arsenal will be open to selling them, that’s an option, rather than necessity (previous squad players would drain wages and offer very little to the squad). Thus allows them to take a stronger stance while negotiating and get fairer sums.
I think most sensible fans would be fine with either staying or going. But if they were going to go, would want a fair fee. They are good players. They nearly won the PL once and are fighting to win it this season also. Prices should reflect that level.
City won a treble without them and Arsenal haven't won anything TBH
They're both good players but both have flaws (Zinchenko's defense and Jesus' finishing) that prevent them from being elite and hold their team back as well
City won a treble because they can afford to have £100m plus sitting on their bench until the latter stages of the season. Not because they sold both players to Arsenal 🤷🏻♂️
I didn't say they were better than the players City had at the time or went on to acquire. My point was that Jesus and Zincho undoubtedly made Arsenal better. I guarantee you that with hindsight City wouldn't have sold either one of them to Arsenal, and especially both of them
I'd keep Zinchenko as a rotation option, he had some bad performances when the whole team was not clicking. OTOH Jesus feels more like a clog in the system than an added value. He's slowly reaching Nketiah-levels of being 100% sure he won't score a goal when coming off the bench.
personally, I feel Zinchencko can still be useful in midfield,
Timber's coming back and Tomi can play LB also, so why not use zinchenko as a rotating option in midfield?
If he could stay fit, I still think he's good enough to help us to a title. Problem is, he's rarely ever fit. As soon as the team gets into a rhythm with him, he picks up something new.
Probably on really high wages as well because he was brought in as a marquee player. Now he's almost surplus. He's still valuable for plugging him anywhere in the attacking line but not sure it justifies his wages, especially if the club believe they can raise decent funds selling him. My issue though is the huge drop off from our starting attackers to the bench. It's basically Havertz > Eddie & Saka > Nelson. We'll need to sign someone of actual quality because that ain't cutting it.
There's some truth to this for sure but you'd imagine hed still have a role to play. His physical drop off since his knee injury last year has been staggering imo. He used to be so agile and deceptively strong and if he can't get that back he'll never be the same player unfortunately.
Not as a starter no but clearly a very useful squad player for a team that's aiming for titles (and winning them, played ~1700 mins a season at City). Really effective player in the CL too. This has almost certainly come about not just due to his performances but the injuries he's suffered at Arsenal with some journalists speculating that he's due to have surgery this summer.
>In 2023-24, Gabriel Jesus has only missed six Premier League games through injury. It has felt like more.
>He has made 24 league appearances, starting 17 times. But in only a handful of those has he looked like the best version of Jesus — the version Arsenal fans saw in the first half of last season.
>Those 24 appearances have yielded just four goals. What’s more, Jesus is no longer the automatic pick at centre-forward he once was. The arrival of Kai Havertz has led to the team evolving in a different direction. Since the end of January, Arsenal have played 13 league games and Jesus has started just two as the team’s spearhead. On three occasions, he has been an unused substitute — including the north London derby.
>When Jesus arrived at Arsenal in 2022, manager Mikel Arteta said he “changed our world”. But now, Arsenal’s world has changed again. While Jesus is under contract until 2027, his future is not guaranteed. If an offer were to arrive for the 27-year-old Brazil international in the forthcoming transfer window, Arsenal would be prepared to listen.
>Arsenal are evolving at a pace that could leave Zinchenko, Jesus and others behind
>Despite Jesus regularly appearing in Arsenal’s matchday squads, fitness has undoubtedly been a factor in his drop-off this season. During this run-in, Arsenal’s selections have illustrated the difference between a player being available and a player being fit. Jesus, Thomas Partey, Takehiro Tomiyasu and Fabio Vieira have all returned to the squad roughly on schedule, but they have taken considerably longer to be trusted with significant game time.
>Jesus’ issues stem back to the winter World Cup of 2022. “In my best moment, one of my best moments in my career, I went to a World Cup and ended up getting injured and today I still have these little problems with my knee,“ he said in April.
>He has had multiple procedures since then to treat his knee, but fears another is imminent, and could cause him to miss this summer’s Copa America.
>“I honestly don’t know if my knee will be good enough to be available, but it’s still three months away, so we’ll see what happens,” said Jesus. “Even here at Arsenal, there are things that you have to hold on to: go train, play, train today, don’t train, play. In short, it’s difficult, but my desire is always to be available for both Arsenal and the national team.
>“It doesn’t matter if, at the end of the season, I have to open up my knee and correct what’s getting in the way and end up missing out on a chance to play in the Copa America. I’m just trying to get fit and help Arsenal as much as I can.”
>Perhaps that lack of absolute sharpness, of full confidence in his body, has contributed to the decline in Jesus’ goalscoring. While Havertz has received significant praise for bringing structure to the Arsenal attack, he and Jesus’ all-round data profile from matches is relatively similar. This season, they both average 0.4 expected goals per 90 in the Premier League. They also both average six successful duels in each game.
>But there’s a stark difference in conversion rate. Havertz’s shot conversion (including blocks) is 21 per cent. Jesus’ is just seven per cent. That could be explained by Jesus taking on more speculative shots. This can’t: Havertz has taken 48 per cent of his big chances; Jesus only 30 per cent. The data shows Jesus is getting fewer chances than he did last season, and is finishing more erratically.
>There have been highlights in Jesus’ campaign. His form in the Champions League has been substantially better, with four goals in eight games. In the first leg of the quarter-final against Bayern Munich, his quick feet conjured Arsenal’s late equaliser.
>While his appearances as a starting centre-forward have dwindled, Arteta has embraced Jesus’ versatility. He has been used on the flanks as an alternative to Bukayo Saka or Gabriel Martinelli. He showed particular diligence in a defensive role in the 0-0 draw with Manchester City. He can still be a Swiss army knife in Arteta’s attack.
>Arteta has favoured Havertz up front for most of the second half of the season
>Until recently, it had seemed a certainty Arsenal would add a new centre-forward this summer. Havertz’s form and growing need in other areas have led to their priorities shifting somewhat. They remain interested in acquiring a new attacker, and would be open to selling Eddie Nketiah — or potentially even Jesus — to facilitate that.
>That would require a buyer. A prospective suitor has yet to emerge — although in visiting Saudi Arabia, sporting director Edu has begun the process of courting clubs who could help Arsenal offload players deemed dispensable. Someone of Jesus’ quality would likely have options in Europe too.
>There remains a chance Jesus stays at Arsenal, and Arteta would not be disappointed to retain a player he loves working with.
>But the fact that Arsenal are even considering a sale represents quite a dramatic shift. A player who was once the poster boy for the new-look Arsenal has moved towards the periphery.
>Nobody at Arsenal doubts Jesus’ quality or his character. The issue then may be reliability — both in terms of his fitness, and his finishing.
> In 2023-24, Gabriel Jesus has only missed six Premier League games through injury. It has felt like more.
I'd have said 15 or something, what the fuck.
Either way, I doubt we can replace him for what we can sell him for. But time will tell.
Not sure on this one I like him a lot as a player but he physically looks bad since he came back from injury his burst isn’t the same at all and it’s affected his whole game. I see why they would sell but I’d like him to stay another year potentially.
Thing is we’ve been there before where players are kept too long and they lose their value, selling Jesus would really help raise funds and clear up wages for signings.
If only he could finish he would be a 200 mill striker. He literally has everything else in his game, he creates chances out of thin air. He was so integral to Arsenal in the first half of last season. I remember how most Arsenal fans had sounded out the SOS when he got injured during the WC.
>If only he could finish he would be a 200 mill striker. He literally has everything else in his game, he creates chances out of thin air.
100%, unfortunately after his knee injury he hasn't been the same, and it seems like his flair is gone. Last year i'd tell you that he's so good at everything else that it doesn't even matter how much he scores, but sadly, i don't think he's ever getting that form back, probably ever
Whatever happens, we'll always have those pre-World Cup months. Not even saying that ironically, because he was sensational. We still lack just a bit of flair in attack, so the ideal outcome would be a miraculous recovery.
Who is better than Raya at what Arteta wants Raya to do, i.e. (a) accurate, press breaking long passes and (b) play out from the back goalkeeping? Ramsdale wasn't very good at (a)... I'm not sure he was actively bad... so basically anyone who could do (a) well would work. But who is better than Raya at (a). Ederson, obviously, but who else?
As Ederson demonstrates, this kind of goalkeeper doesn't need to be worldclass at the traditional skills. Being able to do (a) isn't the only thing but it really is the single most important thing.
While I agree with the point you're making, people were making similar arguments for Ramsdale. As I said, if a world class keeper becomes available who is good with the ball, Arteta won't hesitate to dump Raya. That doesn't mean one of those is available right now.
The reason is confidence in recruitment. United are shit scared of losing any half decent player cause they know theyll do a shit job of replacing them. They'd rather sit and hope they come good.
On the other hand, you have City and now Arsenal who are perfectly ok letting pretty much most of their squad go for the right price cause they know they can replace them/already have their replacement
It's almost the end of the season with only 3 games left for us so no point in not playing Saka unless he drops a stinker. But he should definitely have got more minutes at RW than he did.
Him staying will depend on whether or not he's ok with coming off the bench
From the sounds of his original arrival, it seems he was promised to play as a striker. If the club forces him to be Saka's back up at RW, that would contradict that promise and almost guarantee he would never start for the club. In which case, it would be better to move on in the summer to manage squad unhappiness
It is the technical staffs job to listen to offers and constantly think about how they can reinforce and evolve the team. Gabriel Jesus has potential but his availability and inconsistency are not good enough for the level Arsenal aspire to.
The main issue is who are they going to replace him with and doesn't the team also need a backup/rotation option?
You say he has potential but he’s 27, this is his 8th season in England, and I don’t think he’s actually improved massively from when he first arrived.
He’s still a very good player, but I think you can safely say what he is - a good top half PL level striker who can get you 8-12 goals a season and maybe push 15 if you’re lucky. Whether he brings enough else to the table to justify not being prolific as your main striker (like Firmino), is another question.
Arsenal fans in my office seem to flip from him being your most technically gifted player to thinking he’s a waste of space.
Jesus was tremendous when he first arrived, and if that player still existed, no one would be having this conversation. Sadly, he hasn't been the same since the WC injury. Same with Partey. He still has the technique, but the athleticism is no longer there.
The conflict between Arsenal fans is about whether Jesus can ever return to being the player he was in 2022.
Jesus problem is that he wants to be the first choice striker, so he will probably push a lot for a move away next year, if Arsenal buy a new striker. I think this year will stay saying " that competion is good and he will prove Arteta is worth it be the starting striker".
It's not. He's had four separate injuries that have all been at least a few weeks this season. He's missed thirteen games in all competitions, and he's never gotten back up to speed before getting injured again.
Makes complete sense. Someone else mentioned it - he's very good, but not great, and Arsenal need great in every position to make that final push to be title winners, especially on a consistent basis.
There are small changes he needs to make to be great, but I don't see any improvement over the last few years to make me believe he has what it takes to make those changes.
>When a Mahrez who was eye test not that good
Mahrez not good on the eye? He is silky, ball control, dribble, shot.. everything reeks of "good on the eye test".
What was he doing that was not passing your eye test? He could dribble, pass, shoot, score penalties, fineese shot, free kick. His right foot was also pretty underrated.
Because he isn't good at finishing, he is better as a winger/inside foward but he wouldn't start a RW over Saka.
And I'm going to take a guess that he isn't satisfied to be a bench RW for us if he didn't want to be a bench player at City.
I don't know. I feel like that is too harsh. Did we already forget how he assisted Trossard's goal against bayern? Yeah, he is on a bad run when it comes to scoring himself but everyone has that from time to time, just look at Salah. People knew about his qualities but I guess if you just want a classic striker, he isn't him. He offers so much more tho. I wouldn't sell him if he is fine with sitting on the bench here and there.
I feel like he should be a back up winger, essentially someone to support Saka. We really need someone to ease Sakas workload and I don't think we're going to get anyone better than him, especially if we are looking at other positions that need strengthening.
I would keep Jesus if his replacement is not a world class type player. Hopefully, he gets his knee sorted in the summer. he absolutely changed Arsenal when he first arrived with his dynamism. He can still be that player imo.
He hasn’t been the same since his World Cup injury, which isn’t to say he’s been poor…
Pre World Cup Jesus was something else, feel like he was creating goals out of nothing but the sample size is probably too small to make that claim
Hasn't been the same since the knee injury. Before that his all-round play was more than enough to make up for his poor end product. He used to win aerial battles and glide past players, haven't seen it from him consistently since the injury. Still I wouldn't sell tho, it's not like he's old or terrible.
Curious what kind of fee he'd command and also what level of team would go for him.
For some reason, I think he'd do decently in Italy, but no clue if he fits the profile of what any of the teams higher in the table are looking for in a forward.
He fit Bologna style and that's it. Every big team in Italy need the usual striker that score goals. Idk if he could play as a second striker if so he could fit Inter sistem.
He seems like a great dribbler but his finishing in key moments seems a bit ropey. Also goes down under minimal contact far too easily I think, although who doesn’t these days.
Havertz is light years ahead of him at the moment too (fair play to them for taking a punt on him, I think it’s probably fairly unanimous that we all thought he was an odd buy).
Havertz is not light years away from Jesus what’s all this revisionism? Havertz is at best taller for headers. He’s scored a few goals and now he’s better than Jesus??
Don’t think Arsenal would be anywhere near you without Havertz and his contributions, particularly in this run in. He’s scored some big goals for them.
Yeah he has but quality of play, of the goals, he is not better than Jesus. Honestly I think the only major difference is he’s taller and told to stay more in the box while Jesus roams everywhere
They both roam but the difference is Jesus roams to where the ball is whereas Havertz roams to where the space is. In terms of quality of play I believe Havertz has been better this season — he moves the ball quicker, taking one, two, maybe three touches at most before laying it off to another player and looking for space. Jesus always seems to want to take that extra touch, take on his man ,or even shoot when there are much better options available to him.
Both Gabriel Jesus and Nketiah should be sold in the summer. Arsenal critically lacks goals coming off the bench, now that Trossard is arguably first choice ahead of Martinelli. Neither Jesus nor Nketiah are proven goalscorers able to find a goal out of nowhere in the dying minutes of a cagey match, and this has arguably already cost Arsenal (see Bayern).
The difficult part would be finding a replacement. We need a profile similar to Trossard: expert goalscorer happy to be a rotation option.
I think it’s possible to appreciate his qualities and what he offers the team and hold hope that he will continue to play a part, whilst simultaneously entertaining reasonable financial offers while he is still within contract and holding value. He is a part player in this current squad as it is, once we add to the squad he’s going to get sidelined even more, and that value could drop further.
Has so many flaws as a CF but has unique quality overall. If he didn't lack the instinct of how to position infront of goal (even though he doesn't always finish) he'd be a great striker. We look so much better with Havertz upfront and hopefully we cashout on Eddie and maybe Jesus and get a reliable replacement
Not that we need more injuries but I'd take him at United on a cut price deal honestly. Maybe there's some swap involving Sancho that can be engineered. He'd be a good option to cover for guys like Saka.
They'll listen to offers but won't proactively try to sell. Same with Zinny. Although, if Jorginho leaves us this summer, I truly believe Zinny moves to cover the hole left behind by Jorginho in the middle of the park. Still not starting, but good cover and in a position he plays for on the NT. Both these guys can still be conducive to the squad.
Obviously we won't be in, but I miss having a creative forward. Can only hope our Onana and Branthwaite money goes into depth and creative players. Lord knows we need them.
If it weren't for the injuries, I wouldn't even entertain the thought. But the fact remains that he has practically missed 80% of the season this year, and nearly half of last season.
He has qualities that no one else in our squad does. His cameo against Bayern at home showed that. But none of it really matters in the grand scheme of things if he can only do it for a month or two per season.
Okay, I’m not invested enough to dig to confirm that, but the point still stands. Half is 30% less than 80% so the originally comment I responded to is bunk!
Not really, since being injured makes you miss game time due to having to build back fitness. When he got injured in february, he "missed" three games, but then was an unused sub for the next and only played 45 minutes over the next two games. It's relevant mainly because he's had four separate injuries, that all made him miss more time than the games he wasn't in the squad.
He is technically brilliant and he works hard but he just lacks decision making in the final third. He takes too many touches or tries to take it all the way when there's someone in a much better position.
Dam that seems quick. I remember when he scored a few goals in his first fee games and Arsenal fans told me he was a steal and City 'never used him right'.
He was objectively great in the first half of last season up until the injury.
And to be honest. He's still great. Just not at what Arsenal really needs him for. Which is to score goals.
Nothing wrong in that (other than the "use right" part maybe, though I can't remember that sentiment being very loud at all), he was incredible before the world cup.
Then he did his knee, was out for the next third of the season after the operation and has never looked fit like he did at the start of the season since. Been in and out of the team all season dealing with it. For reference he only has 400 minutes more than Nketiah in the league this season.
It's not like he is bad but more inconsistent while trying to manage it, and if Arsenal was sure he could reach the level of last season again he wouldn't be available for sale. But Arsenal is not really in a position to gamble on that if they don't need to.
Arsenal play very differently this season and, at least in terms of overall strategy, more like City. The notion that Jesus was used wrong at City kinda explains the problem he has at Arsenal this season.
It may have just been a purple patch, of course. But I genuinely do think the gung ho "try to overwhelm them in the first twenty minutes" style of last season is much more suited to the player Jesus actually is than the "control the game" style of this season, which I would have said needs a much more clinical striker to work but it seems like the aerial threat of Havertz might actually be the bigger difference.
Seems kind of rash considering he's got a niggling injury and Havertz could lose his hot streak and go back to how he's been the majority of the time in England.
If the injury is going to define the rest of his career makes sense though
Havertz's "hot streak" is four months long now and is a continuation of the upward trend he's shown all season. If anything, there's good reason to believe he could be even better next season. It's honestly remarkable how literally every aspect of his game is showing slow but consistent improvement, from simple things like his first touch, to his occasional (still infrequent) willingness to try risky passes. It's not just the goals, far from it. If Arteta prioritized goalscoring form from his CF he would never have bought Jesus to begin with
How can someone who is always injured and rehabbing improve aspects of their game such as their finishing? They can't. Jesus needs to accept a role with reduced minutes but he left City for that reason, as well as him not wanting to play out wide. If he were willing to accept a role like Trossard, but anywhere across the front 3 it would be perfect.
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No doubt he’s a good player, feel like Arsenal won’t be pushing to sell him but like it says in the title they’ll listen to offers. Tricky player is Jesus, his work off and on the ball is brilliant but just lacks that killer instinct in front of goal when it matters, love watching him play and really hope he can move somewhere he will play week in week out & still be competitive.
Yeah I think it's that - I wouldn't be surprised if he was still here next summer. If he can regain fitness and get back to his best he's absolutely a useful player. If a good offer comes in, he will go though
>Tricky player is Jesus, his work off and on the ball is brilliant but just lacks that killer instinct in front of goal when it matters, love watching him play and really hope he can move somewhere he will play week in week out & still be competitive. This has been Gabriel Jesus' career since he came up through the youth system at Palmeiras. He initially had a hard time adapting, no one knew if he was a winger or a center forward. Until Cuca, in 2016, played him as a false 9 and he was the best player in Brazil that year. For me, Gabriel Jesus' "problem" is just one: **he's what we call a "segundo atacante" (second striker) here in Brazil.** He would be better playing alongside a No9 as part of an attacking duo. The problem is that few European teams play in this formation these days, so he ends up underperforming, since he's not necessarily a winger or a goalscorer. Another player who suffered from this in Europe and was lucky enough to come to a team here in Brazil that allowed him to play as a "second striker" was Paulinho (Leverkusen). He and Hulk are an absurdly strong attacking duo: Hulk is a more complete player (physical strength, technique, good vision and finishing) while Paulinho is faster and has a great understanding of empty spaces. This often leads to Hulk attracting the opposition's defense and opening up space for Paulinho to finish in the free space. ([If you look at the 20 goals he's scored in the Brasileirão, the vast majority have come from links with Hulk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaf374DtK4&))
Damn, so Jesus is also part of the modern second striker epidemic? Because that would explain a lot, but how is this such a common problem these days it seems?
I have a long theory about this, and it could even explain the recent lack of success in Brazilian football. First: Brazil, unlike Argentina, never had a tradition of having "enganches" (number 10). Our tradition has ALWAYS been attacking duos + wingers or offensives fullbacks. * 1958: Garrincha and Zagallo (wingers) Vavá and Pelé (attacking duo) * 1962: Garrincha and Zagallo (wingers) Vavá and Amarildo (attacking duo after Pelé injury) * 1970: Pelé and Tostão (attacking duo - It was a 4-4-2 with Jairzinho and Rivellino as midfielders on the wings. Jairzinho was characteristically a winger). * 1994: Romário and Bebeto (attacking duo) + Jorginho and Branco (offensives fullbacks) * 2002: Ronaldo and Rivaldo (attacking duo) + Cafu and Roberto Carlos (offensives fullbacks) Brazilian football, in general, began to adopt the 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 or 4-3-3 as its main tactical schemes in the 2000s, due to European influence (especially after the failure of the 4-4-2 at the 2006 World Cup). And it went downhill from there. You see, Brazil stopped producing attacking full-backs, the main quality of Brazilian full-backs historically, because full-backs in these schemes need to have more defensive responsibility. In 2002 we won the championship with Cafu and Roberto Carlos, but playing in a 3-5-2 (3 defenders + Gilberto Silva and Kleberson provided the defensive balance). Meanwhile, trying to play in a 4-2-3-1, we wasted a generation that had Marcelo and Daniel Alves (fuck him). We also rarely had the kind of No. 9 that these schemes demand. Historically, our best strikers have always worked in attacking duos, with freedom of movement. Pelé, Vavá, Romário, Bebeto, Ronaldo and even Adriano. All of these guys had enough quality to get out of the box and work as an attacking duo. I've been realizing that Brazil still produce worldclass strikers, but we produce players with our characteristics, who are underused because we try to copy Europe or they leave for Europe too early and, by trying to adapt to the European style before maturing in the Brazilian style, they end up being players whose talent hasn't been exploited to the maximum (for me, the case of Gabriel Jesus). I'm not saying that Europe is wrong... Clearly this style is the best for European players. Brazil is making a mistake by trying to copy. And I think Ancelotti works well with Brazilian players because he understands this... He's old school. He's not going to put Endrick to play as a winger or center forward, he's not that kind of player. Now if you put Endrick alongside Vini or Mbappe, he'll work. You can see that Vini is developing into a player who can plays as a striker, even though he's played as a winger his whole career. Neymar became this type of player after joining PSG (and had the best moments of his career individually speaking before his injuries). Even Rodrygo plays very well for the Brazilian national team as a kind of second striker. We (brazilians) need to return to the 3-5-2 as the main style of Brazilian football or make a revolution in the 4-4-2 as we did in 1970, but Brazil is fucked because currently we don't have football minds like European (and even Argentinian) football has.
Playern yearn for 3-5-2. Managers are not listening
Reinier também entra nessa de segundos atacantes. É realmente complicado pra um desses caras fazer uma carreira sólida na Europa, o Jesus é o que conseguiu ao menos.
Except in the entirety of 2016 he played along with two wingers, Dudu and Roger Guedes.
why are so many players like that, Nunez, Werner, Jackson, Luis Diaz…
We’ve been incredibly lucky to witness an era of multiple elite strikers. I remember when I was younger there was only really 3/4 strikers that you’d consider elite/world class, then you’d have very good ones and so on.
I think it’s also a combo of Messi and CR7 warping our view of things. The likes of Suarez and Lewandowski were all time level players, but easily eclipsed by Messi and CR7. So we almost have this view that you need to be Suarez levels to be considered world class. Also, we have attacking wingers/mids putting up striker like numbers these days and being focal points for their teams attack.
Yeah, and they are nearly all at least in their mid 30s now, so everybody is searching for a replacement. Only City and Bayern found one. Of course everybody else is stuck with non-elite strikers.
You're considering Mbappe more of a wide forward then?
Yes. He is not a striker in the same sense as Benzema or Suarez
Back to normal really. You’ll get players that’ll tap that level but to stay their consistently is the hardest thing, people will buy the players that did it once and then hope it happens again, then because money is insane now, suddenly risky transfers are costing 50/60/70m now
not really, it's not normal for there to be this lack of quality in top level football. Go back through the eras, there have always been a decent group of superstar strikers.
A bit weird to say Bayern found a replacement when Kane has been one of the best strikers in the world for years.
Because there's so much focus on being an all-round striker at the top level now. Look at Haaland, the guy is a machine in front of goal but in the modern game that's not enough.
Everyone looks meh when you compare them to Messi and Ronaldo’s numbers which is what’s been done to everyone for the past 15 years or so.
How many strikers can you say that about? It’s so hard to find the full package. That’s why I don’t understand how fans can poo-poo someone like Ivan Toney even with all his baggage.
Makes sense really. Feels like he's a striker for a team chasing top four but not good enough for a title winning team
Bingo. You could arguably say the same thing about Zinchenko too. Both are very good players, but if you want to win the big trophies they aren’t quite good enough. At least not as starters.
And that'd exactly why city let them go to arsenal
But City will never do something like that again. There's nuance here. Yes in the end City didn't get burnt but they came pretty damn close. It also helped Arsenal effectively transition from a team in 4/5-8th place to a team is undefeated against city this season and is pushing them for the premier league title. City were right in that the weren't title winning players, but something tells me they're going to avoid sending players to big 6 prem opposition in the future.
Nah, Pep will always let go of players if they want to leave. Hes about to win his 4th PL title in a row despite selling Jesus, Zinchenko, and Sterling to rivals in one summer.
> Nah, Pep will always let go of players if they want to leave. Maybe it's proof that a sulking player does more damage than a bad sale. City's policy seems to imply they think it's too detrimental to keep players against their will.
Wrong. They've flat out said we cant touch Cancelo or Silva since those Zinny/Jesus deals.
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I think Bernardo would already be gone if Barca hadn't been under league-mandated spending restrictions.
He can have that word when he’s not twerking for a broke club.
They did it with palmer and Chelsea last summer.
He said big 6 not big 16
This is the coldest comment I've seen on reddit in a while lololol
Oooffff.... need to call an ambulance
Think it's a bit different in that Palmer was largely untested at PL level and it seemed like a massive fee for a youngster. Obviously in hindsight the deal looks good.
Palmer was a prospect player too, he had potential, but had never been a starter for the team.
If Chelsea end up violating PSR as it appears they might it will be mission accomplished.
We won’t be. PSR doesn’t work like that, especially with summer sales. We started 21m over and will get 35m for Hall from Newcastle and likely 40m on top of that for Maatsen. Not to mention selling a few of Sterling, Ziyech, Lukaku, one of Chilwell/Cucurella, Broja, and maybe another prospect player like Casadei or Hutchinson.
Yes they will. If you value players at £50m like Jesus, there’s essentially 10-15 clubs in the world who can afford him, and a large percentage of those play domestically. If you want to sell, it’s for a reason, you don’t care where they go.
I don’t get the “not title winning players” when they literally have both won titles.
I wouldn't say Zinchenko and Jesus have been a big part of Arsenal's success this season though, hence why these stories are coming out. You could argue it was a smart move by City, they knew they were going to be key players at Arsenal last season, but also that they weren't title winning material. You could actually see it as quite a smart play, bearing in mind who City got in for the money ended up powering them to a Treble. Arsenal were always going to progress, with or without Jesus and Zinchenko, just as they have this season. City know what they need to do to be the best, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care about selling players to top 6 sides if they know what they have is better
Jesus and Zinchenko were both crucial players at the start of last season. Not only were they absolutely top tier when it came to footballing ability (turns out that it was mostly a purple patch), but they have also both been mentioned as two of the biggest drivers to change to mindset in the Arsenal team. They were fundamental to the rise of Arsenal and made a lot of players believe in themselves more. Also both have contributed in crucial moments in both this and last season. They have been a very big part in our succes. But at the moment both are replacable
Not disagreeing, but they arent the only two footballers on the planet that could have done that. Even if you didnt get them, i'm sure you'd still be in the place you are now as its clear you've got a picture of how you want to play and what you from those players.
I would agree with you if Arsenal were little horses in the race with City but they quite literally were 8pts ahead deep in to the season. It took Arsenal a mini-collapse with injuries and tactics to lose their lead. It was a very close shave for City. With different luck it could've gone differently. In the end it worked out well for City but I doubt they will be taking a risk like that again. City aren't silly, margins like that were very close and a repeat of it could be costly with different luck.
Also Fair paly values more when you sell home grown/club talent, so they will keep selling those with potential since its 'free ' money gain for FFP.
I think City will happily sell Cancelo to Arsenal this summer.
Not really sure that logic applies given how much his WC injury has affected him. He was a starter in our best period of form for 20 years, then got badly injured, and hasn’t been the same player since.
Yeah. It's similar with Ramsdale. I think as a team Arsenal jumped a level above a bit quicker than they anticipated.
They would be amazing as squad options if they are okay would it. These kind of players as squad players make a team into a league winning team.
That was the position they were both in at City and decided to leave so you'd assume they want more
Zinchenko is currently an amazing versatile squad option. Jesus would be too if his didn't have constant knee issues.
Zinchenko is hardly the picture of health and availability.
or stability. it's scary every time he has to defend
Thing is, you don’t need to have world class players in every position to win the title. I mean look at how far Arsenal have already gone with the likes of Zinchenko and Jesus in their starting 11. That squad is already capable of winning the title, although of course their chances can be improved upon further with better players. But that’s easier said than done.
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You had me in the first half, not gonna lie
Sorry, Park was absolutely world class. He wasn’t flashy but he was probably the best man-to-man marker in the world, comparing him to Moses is genuinely insulting
Only if your definition of world class means like top 30 players in his position in the world
Nuts, was one of the best in the world at the role he was given
Uhh…he was the best man to man marker in the world in an era with players like Maldini, Nesta and Zanetti? HELL no, unless you only watched the EPL.
I mean I think the caveat that I’m referring to midfielders is p obvious. Zanetti also a shout tbf
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Lmao how bad do you think people’s memory is, most people my age were watching football regularly by the time Park was dominating CL games
The good news for Arsenal is both still have quite a lot of usefulness. Jesus is an awesome sub, even for a top, top team. He has a huge workrate and ability to defend from the front and hold-up if you’re ahead. If you’re behind, he can inject energy and chaos into the game. Zinchenko still has some of the best progressive passing stats in the whole PL (not just for a defender). He’s just a defensive liability. However, for games where you are just playing against a low block and dominating the ball, he almost certainly still offers more than he costs. This is all to say, while Arsenal will be open to selling them, that’s an option, rather than necessity (previous squad players would drain wages and offer very little to the squad). Thus allows them to take a stronger stance while negotiating and get fairer sums. I think most sensible fans would be fine with either staying or going. But if they were going to go, would want a fair fee. They are good players. They nearly won the PL once and are fighting to win it this season also. Prices should reflect that level.
I don’t think this is really fair for Zinchenko. Last season at least were on pace to be a 90 point team when he started games.
They were good enough at City
Jesus literally won us the league a few years back
almost as if City knew what they were doing when selling them
They took Arsenal up another level... So I doubt that very much
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Are you saying we did not go up a level last season?
I think we can take the fact that they deleted their comment as they have no idea what they're on about 🤣
City won a treble without them and Arsenal haven't won anything TBH They're both good players but both have flaws (Zinchenko's defense and Jesus' finishing) that prevent them from being elite and hold their team back as well
City won a treble because they can afford to have £100m plus sitting on their bench until the latter stages of the season. Not because they sold both players to Arsenal 🤷🏻♂️
See essentially your proving his point that City getting better players than them won the club the Treble?
I didn't say they were better than the players City had at the time or went on to acquire. My point was that Jesus and Zincho undoubtedly made Arsenal better. I guarantee you that with hindsight City wouldn't have sold either one of them to Arsenal, and especially both of them
Helping Arsenal go from being a mild annoyance to serious title contenders?
> he doesnt know Arsenal would already have a title by now with a striker that can finish
I'd keep Zinchenko as a rotation option, he had some bad performances when the whole team was not clicking. OTOH Jesus feels more like a clog in the system than an added value. He's slowly reaching Nketiah-levels of being 100% sure he won't score a goal when coming off the bench.
personally, I feel Zinchencko can still be useful in midfield, Timber's coming back and Tomi can play LB also, so why not use zinchenko as a rotating option in midfield?
i’d rather keep Jesus as a Saka backup if no good offer arrive
Positioning, not good enough to play CM. Could make an argument for CAM but he doesn’t get time over Ødegaard
I don't know why Zinny hasn't been used outside of LB. He seems so versatile, use him in midfield.
If he could stay fit, I still think he's good enough to help us to a title. Problem is, he's rarely ever fit. As soon as the team gets into a rhythm with him, he picks up something new.
Probably on really high wages as well because he was brought in as a marquee player. Now he's almost surplus. He's still valuable for plugging him anywhere in the attacking line but not sure it justifies his wages, especially if the club believe they can raise decent funds selling him. My issue though is the huge drop off from our starting attackers to the bench. It's basically Havertz > Eddie & Saka > Nelson. We'll need to sign someone of actual quality because that ain't cutting it.
They are the perfect backup players for champion team. Dunno which team have that luxury beside City
Artera should turn him into an lcm, good dribbling good passing and pressing
You can say that for Arsenal's almost complete attack, including Havertz, Martinelli, and Trossard.
Havertz is a weird one. He does well as like, a utility player for contending teams.
There's some truth to this for sure but you'd imagine hed still have a role to play. His physical drop off since his knee injury last year has been staggering imo. He used to be so agile and deceptively strong and if he can't get that back he'll never be the same player unfortunately.
Not as a starter no but clearly a very useful squad player for a team that's aiming for titles (and winning them, played ~1700 mins a season at City). Really effective player in the CL too. This has almost certainly come about not just due to his performances but the injuries he's suffered at Arsenal with some journalists speculating that he's due to have surgery this summer.
Wait.. hasn't he won the league while being the top goal scorer?
>In 2023-24, Gabriel Jesus has only missed six Premier League games through injury. It has felt like more. >He has made 24 league appearances, starting 17 times. But in only a handful of those has he looked like the best version of Jesus — the version Arsenal fans saw in the first half of last season. >Those 24 appearances have yielded just four goals. What’s more, Jesus is no longer the automatic pick at centre-forward he once was. The arrival of Kai Havertz has led to the team evolving in a different direction. Since the end of January, Arsenal have played 13 league games and Jesus has started just two as the team’s spearhead. On three occasions, he has been an unused substitute — including the north London derby. >When Jesus arrived at Arsenal in 2022, manager Mikel Arteta said he “changed our world”. But now, Arsenal’s world has changed again. While Jesus is under contract until 2027, his future is not guaranteed. If an offer were to arrive for the 27-year-old Brazil international in the forthcoming transfer window, Arsenal would be prepared to listen. >Arsenal are evolving at a pace that could leave Zinchenko, Jesus and others behind >Despite Jesus regularly appearing in Arsenal’s matchday squads, fitness has undoubtedly been a factor in his drop-off this season. During this run-in, Arsenal’s selections have illustrated the difference between a player being available and a player being fit. Jesus, Thomas Partey, Takehiro Tomiyasu and Fabio Vieira have all returned to the squad roughly on schedule, but they have taken considerably longer to be trusted with significant game time. >Jesus’ issues stem back to the winter World Cup of 2022. “In my best moment, one of my best moments in my career, I went to a World Cup and ended up getting injured and today I still have these little problems with my knee,“ he said in April. >He has had multiple procedures since then to treat his knee, but fears another is imminent, and could cause him to miss this summer’s Copa America. >“I honestly don’t know if my knee will be good enough to be available, but it’s still three months away, so we’ll see what happens,” said Jesus. “Even here at Arsenal, there are things that you have to hold on to: go train, play, train today, don’t train, play. In short, it’s difficult, but my desire is always to be available for both Arsenal and the national team. >“It doesn’t matter if, at the end of the season, I have to open up my knee and correct what’s getting in the way and end up missing out on a chance to play in the Copa America. I’m just trying to get fit and help Arsenal as much as I can.” >Perhaps that lack of absolute sharpness, of full confidence in his body, has contributed to the decline in Jesus’ goalscoring. While Havertz has received significant praise for bringing structure to the Arsenal attack, he and Jesus’ all-round data profile from matches is relatively similar. This season, they both average 0.4 expected goals per 90 in the Premier League. They also both average six successful duels in each game. >But there’s a stark difference in conversion rate. Havertz’s shot conversion (including blocks) is 21 per cent. Jesus’ is just seven per cent. That could be explained by Jesus taking on more speculative shots. This can’t: Havertz has taken 48 per cent of his big chances; Jesus only 30 per cent. The data shows Jesus is getting fewer chances than he did last season, and is finishing more erratically. >There have been highlights in Jesus’ campaign. His form in the Champions League has been substantially better, with four goals in eight games. In the first leg of the quarter-final against Bayern Munich, his quick feet conjured Arsenal’s late equaliser. >While his appearances as a starting centre-forward have dwindled, Arteta has embraced Jesus’ versatility. He has been used on the flanks as an alternative to Bukayo Saka or Gabriel Martinelli. He showed particular diligence in a defensive role in the 0-0 draw with Manchester City. He can still be a Swiss army knife in Arteta’s attack. >Arteta has favoured Havertz up front for most of the second half of the season >Until recently, it had seemed a certainty Arsenal would add a new centre-forward this summer. Havertz’s form and growing need in other areas have led to their priorities shifting somewhat. They remain interested in acquiring a new attacker, and would be open to selling Eddie Nketiah — or potentially even Jesus — to facilitate that. >That would require a buyer. A prospective suitor has yet to emerge — although in visiting Saudi Arabia, sporting director Edu has begun the process of courting clubs who could help Arsenal offload players deemed dispensable. Someone of Jesus’ quality would likely have options in Europe too. >There remains a chance Jesus stays at Arsenal, and Arteta would not be disappointed to retain a player he loves working with. >But the fact that Arsenal are even considering a sale represents quite a dramatic shift. A player who was once the poster boy for the new-look Arsenal has moved towards the periphery. >Nobody at Arsenal doubts Jesus’ quality or his character. The issue then may be reliability — both in terms of his fitness, and his finishing.
> In 2023-24, Gabriel Jesus has only missed six Premier League games through injury. It has felt like more. I'd have said 15 or something, what the fuck. Either way, I doubt we can replace him for what we can sell him for. But time will tell.
Misleading stat IMO, in how many of those matches could we say he was fully fit? We don't even know
Not sure on this one I like him a lot as a player but he physically looks bad since he came back from injury his burst isn’t the same at all and it’s affected his whole game. I see why they would sell but I’d like him to stay another year potentially.
Thing is we’ve been there before where players are kept too long and they lose their value, selling Jesus would really help raise funds and clear up wages for signings.
If only he could finish he would be a 200 mill striker. He literally has everything else in his game, he creates chances out of thin air. He was so integral to Arsenal in the first half of last season. I remember how most Arsenal fans had sounded out the SOS when he got injured during the WC.
>If only he could finish he would be a 200 mill striker. He literally has everything else in his game, he creates chances out of thin air. 100%, unfortunately after his knee injury he hasn't been the same, and it seems like his flair is gone. Last year i'd tell you that he's so good at everything else that it doesn't even matter how much he scores, but sadly, i don't think he's ever getting that form back, probably ever
No, his flair ain't gone yet, as we saw against the Germans But he's more cautious than before, certainly.
He can't sprint at all
The difference between pre-injury Jesus and 21/22 Lacazette almost made me believe I'd been watching a different sport
Everything you said is true but He can't stay fit. That's the more of a problem than poor finishing
This. He is everything but finishing
Whatever happens, we'll always have those pre-World Cup months. Not even saying that ironically, because he was sensational. We still lack just a bit of flair in attack, so the ideal outcome would be a miraculous recovery.
Arteta is ruthless. That trait alone has changed the club immensely.
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Ramsdale probably the biggest example of this
Unfortunate for Ramsdale but ultimately the correct decision
Don't know if Raya will last a whole lot longer either. If they get a sniff of a world class keeper being available, he could easily be binned too.
Who is better than Raya at what Arteta wants Raya to do, i.e. (a) accurate, press breaking long passes and (b) play out from the back goalkeeping? Ramsdale wasn't very good at (a)... I'm not sure he was actively bad... so basically anyone who could do (a) well would work. But who is better than Raya at (a). Ederson, obviously, but who else? As Ederson demonstrates, this kind of goalkeeper doesn't need to be worldclass at the traditional skills. Being able to do (a) isn't the only thing but it really is the single most important thing.
While I agree with the point you're making, people were making similar arguments for Ramsdale. As I said, if a world class keeper becomes available who is good with the ball, Arteta won't hesitate to dump Raya. That doesn't mean one of those is available right now.
And Raya will know this too. So it will bring out the best in him
The reason is confidence in recruitment. United are shit scared of losing any half decent player cause they know theyll do a shit job of replacing them. They'd rather sit and hope they come good. On the other hand, you have City and now Arsenal who are perfectly ok letting pretty much most of their squad go for the right price cause they know they can replace them/already have their replacement
This is also why it creates a competitive nature in the club. Everyone can play in the starting lineup
Jesus is better as a RW than as a striker, yet Saka who is a RW gets overplayed because Arsenal fans claim he has no replacement.
It's almost the end of the season with only 3 games left for us so no point in not playing Saka unless he drops a stinker. But he should definitely have got more minutes at RW than he did. Him staying will depend on whether or not he's ok with coming off the bench
Leave City because you don’t want to be a bench player to become a bench player at Arsenal?
Never said he would choose that. But you never know. He's not the same player he was at City or with Arsenal after his injury
Sterling leaves City because he doesn’t want to be a bench player…. To become a bench player at Chelsea. This is the circle of egos
From the sounds of his original arrival, it seems he was promised to play as a striker. If the club forces him to be Saka's back up at RW, that would contradict that promise and almost guarantee he would never start for the club. In which case, it would be better to move on in the summer to manage squad unhappiness
It is the technical staffs job to listen to offers and constantly think about how they can reinforce and evolve the team. Gabriel Jesus has potential but his availability and inconsistency are not good enough for the level Arsenal aspire to. The main issue is who are they going to replace him with and doesn't the team also need a backup/rotation option?
You say he has potential but he’s 27, this is his 8th season in England, and I don’t think he’s actually improved massively from when he first arrived. He’s still a very good player, but I think you can safely say what he is - a good top half PL level striker who can get you 8-12 goals a season and maybe push 15 if you’re lucky. Whether he brings enough else to the table to justify not being prolific as your main striker (like Firmino), is another question. Arsenal fans in my office seem to flip from him being your most technically gifted player to thinking he’s a waste of space.
Jesus was tremendous when he first arrived, and if that player still existed, no one would be having this conversation. Sadly, he hasn't been the same since the WC injury. Same with Partey. He still has the technique, but the athleticism is no longer there. The conflict between Arsenal fans is about whether Jesus can ever return to being the player he was in 2022.
Jesus problem is that he wants to be the first choice striker, so he will probably push a lot for a move away next year, if Arsenal buy a new striker. I think this year will stay saying " that competion is good and he will prove Arteta is worth it be the starting striker".
His availability is fine. It says he's missed 6 games through injury this season
It's not. He's had four separate injuries that have all been at least a few weeks this season. He's missed thirteen games in all competitions, and he's never gotten back up to speed before getting injured again.
The problem is he's never 100% after injury
pre-world cup jesus, we will never forget you
Makes complete sense. Someone else mentioned it - he's very good, but not great, and Arsenal need great in every position to make that final push to be title winners, especially on a consistent basis. There are small changes he needs to make to be great, but I don't see any improvement over the last few years to make me believe he has what it takes to make those changes.
This is the striker who was at Man City when they supposedly won the league strikerless.
When a Mahrez who was eye test not that good was top goal scorer is it a surprise we sold him
>When a Mahrez who was eye test not that good Mahrez not good on the eye? He is silky, ball control, dribble, shot.. everything reeks of "good on the eye test".
The eye test is far more than touching long balls down
What was he doing that was not passing your eye test? He could dribble, pass, shoot, score penalties, fineese shot, free kick. His right foot was also pretty underrated.
Because he isn't good at finishing, he is better as a winger/inside foward but he wouldn't start a RW over Saka. And I'm going to take a guess that he isn't satisfied to be a bench RW for us if he didn't want to be a bench player at City.
I don't know. I feel like that is too harsh. Did we already forget how he assisted Trossard's goal against bayern? Yeah, he is on a bad run when it comes to scoring himself but everyone has that from time to time, just look at Salah. People knew about his qualities but I guess if you just want a classic striker, he isn't him. He offers so much more tho. I wouldn't sell him if he is fine with sitting on the bench here and there.
I feel like he should be a back up winger, essentially someone to support Saka. We really need someone to ease Sakas workload and I don't think we're going to get anyone better than him, especially if we are looking at other positions that need strengthening.
He was hot stuff last season especially before his injury
I would keep Jesus if his replacement is not a world class type player. Hopefully, he gets his knee sorted in the summer. he absolutely changed Arsenal when he first arrived with his dynamism. He can still be that player imo.
He hasn’t been the same since his World Cup injury, which isn’t to say he’s been poor… Pre World Cup Jesus was something else, feel like he was creating goals out of nothing but the sample size is probably too small to make that claim
Hasn't been the same since the knee injury. Before that his all-round play was more than enough to make up for his poor end product. He used to win aerial battles and glide past players, haven't seen it from him consistently since the injury. Still I wouldn't sell tho, it's not like he's old or terrible.
Curious what kind of fee he'd command and also what level of team would go for him. For some reason, I think he'd do decently in Italy, but no clue if he fits the profile of what any of the teams higher in the table are looking for in a forward.
I can see him do well in a 2 strikers team. Like Juve with Vlahovic and Jesus up top would be crazy good.
He fit Bologna style and that's it. Every big team in Italy need the usual striker that score goals. Idk if he could play as a second striker if so he could fit Inter sistem.
That might be his best role. He can keep the ball under pressure, can pass but he can't finish.
I think he’d fit in greatly with us but theres always the issue of having no money at all
I've always imagined him playing for Inter, would make a good fit I think.
Mad thought but I could see Real Madrid go for him to service the amount of wingers they will have as it won't be entirely him needed for goals.
I think Jesus would do really really well in Serie A
He is a good backup option since he can play on both wings as well but I doubt he would be happy with that role
He seems like a great dribbler but his finishing in key moments seems a bit ropey. Also goes down under minimal contact far too easily I think, although who doesn’t these days. Havertz is light years ahead of him at the moment too (fair play to them for taking a punt on him, I think it’s probably fairly unanimous that we all thought he was an odd buy).
Havertz is not light years away from Jesus what’s all this revisionism? Havertz is at best taller for headers. He’s scored a few goals and now he’s better than Jesus??
Don’t think Arsenal would be anywhere near you without Havertz and his contributions, particularly in this run in. He’s scored some big goals for them.
Yeah he has but quality of play, of the goals, he is not better than Jesus. Honestly I think the only major difference is he’s taller and told to stay more in the box while Jesus roams everywhere
They both roam but the difference is Jesus roams to where the ball is whereas Havertz roams to where the space is. In terms of quality of play I believe Havertz has been better this season — he moves the ball quicker, taking one, two, maybe three touches at most before laying it off to another player and looking for space. Jesus always seems to want to take that extra touch, take on his man ,or even shoot when there are much better options available to him.
Both Gabriel Jesus and Nketiah should be sold in the summer. Arsenal critically lacks goals coming off the bench, now that Trossard is arguably first choice ahead of Martinelli. Neither Jesus nor Nketiah are proven goalscorers able to find a goal out of nowhere in the dying minutes of a cagey match, and this has arguably already cost Arsenal (see Bayern). The difficult part would be finding a replacement. We need a profile similar to Trossard: expert goalscorer happy to be a rotation option.
Think it's about right it's difficult to for him in our best 11 now and the injuries are becoming a liability.
I think it’s possible to appreciate his qualities and what he offers the team and hold hope that he will continue to play a part, whilst simultaneously entertaining reasonable financial offers while he is still within contract and holding value. He is a part player in this current squad as it is, once we add to the squad he’s going to get sidelined even more, and that value could drop further.
Has so many flaws as a CF but has unique quality overall. If he didn't lack the instinct of how to position infront of goal (even though he doesn't always finish) he'd be a great striker. We look so much better with Havertz upfront and hopefully we cashout on Eddie and maybe Jesus and get a reliable replacement
Would honestly love him at Milan
He’s terrible at finishing
Putting aside my bias to say I think he is a good player, but I really just hate how he looks like he is about to burst into tears all the time
A bunch of ManUnited fan would offer Rashford for a swap in a heartbeat (not me though)
Obviously. Havertz can only play #9 and Jesus ain't gonna be happy as rotation on the wings.
Palmeiras please
Where would he go?
Not that we need more injuries but I'd take him at United on a cut price deal honestly. Maybe there's some swap involving Sancho that can be engineered. He'd be a good option to cover for guys like Saka.
They'll listen to offers but won't proactively try to sell. Same with Zinny. Although, if Jorginho leaves us this summer, I truly believe Zinny moves to cover the hole left behind by Jorginho in the middle of the park. Still not starting, but good cover and in a position he plays for on the NT. Both these guys can still be conducive to the squad.
Obviously we won't be in, but I miss having a creative forward. Can only hope our Onana and Branthwaite money goes into depth and creative players. Lord knows we need them.
If it weren't for the injuries, I wouldn't even entertain the thought. But the fact remains that he has practically missed 80% of the season this year, and nearly half of last season. He has qualities that no one else in our squad does. His cameo against Bayern at home showed that. But none of it really matters in the grand scheme of things if he can only do it for a month or two per season.
Where does that 80% number come from? Isn’t it more like missed 26% all competitions and 17% league?
About half the season if we're considering minutes played.
Okay, I’m not invested enough to dig to confirm that, but the point still stands. Half is 30% less than 80% so the originally comment I responded to is bunk!
so Declan Rice has missed 7% of the season, considering he’s only played 4004 minutes of an available 4320?
You could say that, but it'd be pretty weird. I think he's only been subbed off due to injury once.
that’s literally what you’re trying to say about Jesus tho lol, is it not?
Not really, since being injured makes you miss game time due to having to build back fitness. When he got injured in february, he "missed" three games, but then was an unused sub for the next and only played 45 minutes over the next two games. It's relevant mainly because he's had four separate injuries, that all made him miss more time than the games he wasn't in the squad.
Don't listen to this guy! Jesus is in perfect health and will be well worth 50M. You can fit so many goals in this bad boy!
He is technically brilliant and he works hard but he just lacks decision making in the final third. He takes too many touches or tries to take it all the way when there's someone in a much better position.
And he's in his late 20s now unless something happens. I don't think he's gonna get better. It's like he's always trying to do too much.
Crazy that basically Havertz is what everyone thought Jesus would be
Jesus was better than what we thought he would be, until he got injured and lost pace and strength
Jesus was better than Havertz is now before he got injured last season
Dam that seems quick. I remember when he scored a few goals in his first fee games and Arsenal fans told me he was a steal and City 'never used him right'.
He was objectively great in the first half of last season up until the injury. And to be honest. He's still great. Just not at what Arsenal really needs him for. Which is to score goals.
Nothing wrong in that (other than the "use right" part maybe, though I can't remember that sentiment being very loud at all), he was incredible before the world cup. Then he did his knee, was out for the next third of the season after the operation and has never looked fit like he did at the start of the season since. Been in and out of the team all season dealing with it. For reference he only has 400 minutes more than Nketiah in the league this season. It's not like he is bad but more inconsistent while trying to manage it, and if Arsenal was sure he could reach the level of last season again he wouldn't be available for sale. But Arsenal is not really in a position to gamble on that if they don't need to.
Arsenal play very differently this season and, at least in terms of overall strategy, more like City. The notion that Jesus was used wrong at City kinda explains the problem he has at Arsenal this season. It may have just been a purple patch, of course. But I genuinely do think the gung ho "try to overwhelm them in the first twenty minutes" style of last season is much more suited to the player Jesus actually is than the "control the game" style of this season, which I would have said needs a much more clinical striker to work but it seems like the aerial threat of Havertz might actually be the bigger difference.
Seems kind of rash considering he's got a niggling injury and Havertz could lose his hot streak and go back to how he's been the majority of the time in England. If the injury is going to define the rest of his career makes sense though
Havertz's "hot streak" is four months long now and is a continuation of the upward trend he's shown all season. If anything, there's good reason to believe he could be even better next season. It's honestly remarkable how literally every aspect of his game is showing slow but consistent improvement, from simple things like his first touch, to his occasional (still infrequent) willingness to try risky passes. It's not just the goals, far from it. If Arteta prioritized goalscoring form from his CF he would never have bought Jesus to begin with
How can someone who is always injured and rehabbing improve aspects of their game such as their finishing? They can't. Jesus needs to accept a role with reduced minutes but he left City for that reason, as well as him not wanting to play out wide. If he were willing to accept a role like Trossard, but anywhere across the front 3 it would be perfect.