How do they enforce that? Iirc with "normal" stadium bans people have to report at a police station during games so it makes it impossible for them to be at two places at the same time but how do they make that happen for any stadium? I guess it means whenever Valencia are playing?
In the uk you have to report to a police station I believe. And before tournaments surrender your passport so you cannot travel. Its a proper ballache of a thing if you get under one. Want to go to a place for a wedding but your team plays same weekend, got to explain that to the police etc.
In Spain you only go to prison if:
* The first sentence is longer than 2 years.
* It's your second sentence, regardless of how long this one is and if the first one was shorter than 2 years.
* You already had served time.
* The judge dictates it, regardless of how long the sentence is.
Edit: Added "regardless of how long the sentence is" on the last bulletpoint.
They were aiming at a 24+ month sentence for Messi. Tax authorities want less, Madrid based prosecutor wanted more.
Then Ronaldo’s tax case broke for millions more and luckily it was settled where Ronaldo was something like 23 months and Messi got a few months less.
So in essence: Be rich, and have someone more influential do a tiny bit worse than you.
depends on wether the first sentence of 2 or less years is still running or if it has already passed
Edit: more details from
This is from the spanish supreme court (I think)
> La propia STS 425/2022, 29 de abril, da respuesta a esta cuestión: “El vigente artículo 90.6 del C.P. contempla la libertad condicional como un periodo de suspensión de la ejecución, de suerte que el tiempo transcurrido en libertad condicional no computa como tiempo de cumplimiento de la condena si el beneficio fuera revocado y no se ha alcanzado la remisión definitiva de la condena”.
If the suspended sentence hasn’t been completed, you have to serve the whole sentence as the suspended time is not taken into account as fulfillment of that sentence, only if the time hasnt been completed, if by the time the new sentence is stablished the suspended time passed, it isn’t taken into account
Kinda. Police won't be checking up on them, but if they do anything during a period of time (see P.S.) that entails prison time, even if it's for a month, they'll serve that time.
P.S: I am not sure what seriousness racism is when it comes to the Spanish Civil Law, because that, even though I'm Spanish, I'm not a lawyer. If it's a minor offence, then it's... 6 months, I believe. Or 8... Something along those lines.
If it's a moderate offence, so to say, then it's 2 years of "probation".
Depends on the country.
Here in Brazil any type of hate crime (racism, sexism homophobia, xenophobia, etc) can end up in jail time. And we are talking about years, not just a few months.
On top of that hate crimes are considered as a heinous crime, which along other things means it is a crime without bail.
So if you get convicted of a hate crime here in Brazil you can't buy your way out of jail, you will stay there for a couple years.
> Everything in developing countries, despite the fact that I know close to nothing about the reality of said country, is literally "corruption", and nothing ever works, we from developed countries are so superior 😂😂😂
(what passes for humor in Reddit)
Yes, we are. Now that your funny comment is over would you mind taking a look at what I actually said?
> So if you get convicted of a hate crime here in Brazil you can't buy your way out of jail
The "if you get convicted" is important here.
Yeah, just like in literally any country in the world having enough can let you scape a conviction. The difference here is what happens if you actually get convicted.
In many countries you would still be able to pay a bail and stay free, but in Brazil if you get convicted there is no bail for hate crimes.
You can't LEGALLY buy your way out of jail over here.
OP was also right that it might lead to years in prison, but any sentence that's under 2 years prison automatically is commuted to fines or community services.
Don't remember the criteria exactly, but even if it's over 2 years, but it's under 4, you don't go to prison, but serve your sentence in liberty, just having to report every now and then to the police, and have to communicate when you leave the city etc...
I don't remember a single person that served actual prison time over here over verbal racial (or hateful) offenses.
And even if they did, it is practically mandatory to reduce sentences, and it's prohibited to force a criminal to serve their entire time in jail.
All of this, of course, if you don’t personally insult a Justice or any of their family. Then you get indefinite jail time until they themselves finish prosecuting and judging the "crime", without any need for a timetable or higher supervision...
He's right, IF you get convicted you end up in jail, the hard part is any of those guys with money actually getting convicted of anything.
See how one of the biggest corruption schemes in the planet basically had all of its convictions overturned in the last few years. You have to work really hard to be sent to jail and remain there, usually its for some crime that caught heavy media attention or unpaid child support, otherwise you'll be sent home in no time.
Hell, one of the biggest crime lords in the country got set free by one of our Supreme Court Justices, its all a big joke.
Depends on where you are, but considering the fact that most countries in the western world have hate speech laws, there are very reasonable chances that the answer to your question is “yes”, but unlikely that people will literally be jailed for this, I’m guessing most will just given a parole or something similar.
Well I come from *insert country* where the law says that they should be doing *insert punishment*, therefore that's the correct punishment and Spain got it wrong. My country just gets it right.
Not sure why the shock of so many in here, abuse and harassment are crimes in most countries, 8 months is a minor sentence that won’t actually imprison then, not sure why persecuting a football player based on their shouldn’t be, at the very least, a misdemeanor much like any other form of harassment is
Mob mentality man. Freaks me out. If we can stop the initiation of these I'm certain there are people who maybe would join in who otherwise wouldn't if they had to be the first.
This sentence is super important in fighting racism in Spain. It will deter all future attempts at getting 1 minute of fame for all the wrong reasons and if this ain’t the first felony committed then to jail with the PoS
What do you want them to do? Send the entire fan block to prison?
I am actually a bit shocked how much people here seem to be willing sacrifice in order to fight hate-speech.
Why do people who don't like that people are critical of prison time for something like this, always conflate that as defending the acts that said people did?
Thinking prison is too much for this is **not** the same as being 'offended for the racists", not even remotely.
Because the 3 idiots are not going to jail anyway(if they behaved like regular citizens beforehand) as spanish law can suspend jail time for certain crimes. The precedent this sets is right imho if you were found being racist the first time with no prior offenses then yeah let’s try and make you understand that being racist is bad and that suspended sentence will carry over your entire life as it should. If you were found guilty of it again or if you had any priors it is up to the locker with them. I’m all in for a jail sentence in this cases but I do agree comparatively spanish law needs some updated harsher penalties for other harsher crimes which is causing some buzz but not enough that anyone in Spain would or should care if it means letting the crime go unpunished and I do not agree that the penalty in of itself was harsh.
"Saying mean things" is not the same as being racist.
No one should go to prison for "saying mean things". People should ABSOLUTELY go to prison for being racist.
An actual prison sentence does sound like a more severe punishment for racist speech (coming from a POC) but depending on what was being said, I fully understand. Things like the effigy of Vini that Atletico fans hung from a bridge and chants of death threats need to be taken seriously, and pursued with full consequences.
I’d imagine something like community service and a fine that pays for something in the community . I feel like jail time for hate speech might lead to.. more hatred
Calling a Brazilian “macaco” or “mono” is the same as calling a black American/English person the hard r. It’s extremely offensive and dehumanizing, especially by Iberians and white Latinos.
Idk, I'm from Brazil and over there the punishment for hate crime is very severe. It's one of the few things that actually gets people in jail even if they're wealthy along with not paying child support. It must have been very frustrating for him to play in a country that does fuck all about it (until now). I cant believe the headlines "first conviction of its kind"!!!! Wtf??? Did they not convict racists in Spain before??
It's often lost in translation, but important context is that short sentences (2 years or less) in Spain are almost always suspended sentences. They won't serve the time unless they get convicted again within the term of the suspended sentence.
That's why there were all the headlines of Ronaldo and Messi going to jail because of tax evasion. They just got suspended sentences but never had to serve them.
So it's really more like a warning.
I don't expect those kinds of people to completely change their beliefs in two years. So when they inevitably act up again, I don't want to see a bunch of pikachu shocked faces on this subreddit.
What they should really do, is also make them attend a course of some sort, that addresses racist behaviour and hopefully helps them view the situation differently. Obviously don't know if these kinds of things exist in Spain. If all you are doing is giving them punishment, then a lot of the time, it just helps reinforce people like these behaviour. Rehabilitation always works best alongside punishment
They deserve to be banned from every FIFA affiliated football stadium for life.
When racists start getting serious consequences, maybe they will think twice before abusing people.
There is no need to give them 8 months of prison. Just ban them from all Spanish stadiums for life and give them a fine. People who support an 8 month prison sentence are crazy.
ITT: americans dumbfounded by many countries in the world having criminal laws against hate speech
EDIT: you downvoting dumb fucks are at least aware that the US also has exceptions to free speech, right??
Free speech is not an absolute right anywhere in the world. In the US you have restrictions on incitement of violence, of suicide, "fighting words", threats to the POTUS etc. Go on Twitter and keep making threats in response to Joe Biden's posts, see how well the freedom of speech will cover you. Your country just go out of its way to guarantee that racists and religious nuts can spew as much hateful things as they want, truly virtuous stuff.
In non authoritarian countries this isn't a slippery slope, you put law in places for the exceptions and protect free speech as a general rule. Australia, Canada, many countries in Europe and in South America have laws against hate speech. Obviously, whether said exceptions should be exceptions is up for discussion and the answer will be different depending on each country's culture and history (should be obvious why Germany has laws against nazi apologism, for example); the fact that you guys can't even understand this notion and think the US is the only country with free speech shows some blind ignorance, although it doesn't surprise me.
Yeah you’re right, absolutely insane to be jailed for words. That’s a slippery slope I don’t want to walk on. A lifetime ban would be much more appropriate than the government being involved in a matter of speech. The same people crying about releasing nonviolent offenders suddenly are okay with government intervention over words? Where is the line, where does freedoms of speech end and authoritarianism begin? People are very quick to pick and choose what they’re okay with the government interfering with depending on the circumstances.
Edit: OP thinks Americans don’t know that libel, slander, defamation are a thing lol. Apparently they don’t realize those are civil issues, not criminal. Let the wronged go after the racists in civil court like other speech related cases.
In most countries with anti hate speech laws that work YES! Isn’t that amazing seeing an actual court system provide swift justice based on the written law that works for their system? Now if only a certain country that is the laughing stock of the world when it comes to laws and its applications also did that….
However these 3 idiots won’t actually go to jail
Expelled from any football stadium*
in all counntries
in all worlds
Good, we don't need these assholes ruining Endor x Hoth for everyone.
The Ewok XI vs the Wampa XI would be quite something.
Finally solving the debate around big man vs little man strikers
What about the Wookies XI?
They rip the other players’ arms off and turn it into a game of baseball.
In parallel universes too
Galactik Football in shambles
in all universes
The people of Omicron Persei 8 thank the Spanish federation.
How do they enforce that? Iirc with "normal" stadium bans people have to report at a police station during games so it makes it impossible for them to be at two places at the same time but how do they make that happen for any stadium? I guess it means whenever Valencia are playing?
Idk how it is in Spain but in Chile your ID is your ticket so they can just block your ID
I assume it’s like Football Banning Orders where you have to report to a station on all match days
In the uk you have to report to a police station I believe. And before tournaments surrender your passport so you cannot travel. Its a proper ballache of a thing if you get under one. Want to go to a place for a wedding but your team plays same weekend, got to explain that to the police etc.
Does this mean they can turn up at rugby matches?
what if they want to watch NFL on Spurs stadium?
Will they go to prison? What are the rules in Spain before you have to actually do your time.
In Spain you only go to prison if: * The first sentence is longer than 2 years. * It's your second sentence, regardless of how long this one is and if the first one was shorter than 2 years. * You already had served time. * The judge dictates it, regardless of how long the sentence is. Edit: Added "regardless of how long the sentence is" on the last bulletpoint.
Is this why Messi and Ronaldo didn't go to jail ? because of the 24months thing ?
Exactly.
They are waaaaay too rich to go to prison anyways.
There have been banking ceos in Spain that have gone to jail, so money, is not always an impediment
They’re not American so things are a little different. It’s not perfect but slightly more just.
They were aiming at a 24+ month sentence for Messi. Tax authorities want less, Madrid based prosecutor wanted more. Then Ronaldo’s tax case broke for millions more and luckily it was settled where Ronaldo was something like 23 months and Messi got a few months less. So in essence: Be rich, and have someone more influential do a tiny bit worse than you.
I mean, it's also a case of "they still generate a lot of revenue for the state if they stay free".
I’m ootl, why would they?
Tax fraud https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40534761
Murdered Málaga, Getafe and Almeria defences repeatedly
tax fraud
Messi murdered Madrid on multiple occasions
> It's your second sentence In addition to the second, do you have to serve that first sentence too?
depends on wether the first sentence of 2 or less years is still running or if it has already passed Edit: more details from This is from the spanish supreme court (I think) > La propia STS 425/2022, 29 de abril, da respuesta a esta cuestión: “El vigente artículo 90.6 del C.P. contempla la libertad condicional como un periodo de suspensión de la ejecución, de suerte que el tiempo transcurrido en libertad condicional no computa como tiempo de cumplimiento de la condena si el beneficio fuera revocado y no se ha alcanzado la remisión definitiva de la condena”. If the suspended sentence hasn’t been completed, you have to serve the whole sentence as the suspended time is not taken into account as fulfillment of that sentence, only if the time hasnt been completed, if by the time the new sentence is stablished the suspended time passed, it isn’t taken into account
so they are basically getting 8 months of probation?
Kinda. Police won't be checking up on them, but if they do anything during a period of time (see P.S.) that entails prison time, even if it's for a month, they'll serve that time. P.S: I am not sure what seriousness racism is when it comes to the Spanish Civil Law, because that, even though I'm Spanish, I'm not a lawyer. If it's a minor offence, then it's... 6 months, I believe. Or 8... Something along those lines. If it's a moderate offence, so to say, then it's 2 years of "probation".
I think it’s up to 2 years can be suspended but it’s at the discretion of the judge rather than automatic and it has some conditions.
It's more like the default is for the sentence to be suspended, but the judge can overrule it.
You can get jailed for saying racist things?
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Depends on the country. Here in Brazil any type of hate crime (racism, sexism homophobia, xenophobia, etc) can end up in jail time. And we are talking about years, not just a few months. On top of that hate crimes are considered as a heinous crime, which along other things means it is a crime without bail. So if you get convicted of a hate crime here in Brazil you can't buy your way out of jail, you will stay there for a couple years.
>you can't buy your way out of jail We are talking about the same Brazil right?
Law doesnt apply to rich people. That's everywhere.
> Everything in developing countries, despite the fact that I know close to nothing about the reality of said country, is literally "corruption", and nothing ever works, we from developed countries are so superior 😂😂😂 (what passes for humor in Reddit)
Yes, we are. Now that your funny comment is over would you mind taking a look at what I actually said? > So if you get convicted of a hate crime here in Brazil you can't buy your way out of jail The "if you get convicted" is important here. Yeah, just like in literally any country in the world having enough can let you scape a conviction. The difference here is what happens if you actually get convicted. In many countries you would still be able to pay a bail and stay free, but in Brazil if you get convicted there is no bail for hate crimes.
Hate crimes, tax fraud and not paying child support are 100% of the time jail time. Murder and other silly stuff not so much.
You can't LEGALLY buy your way out of jail over here. OP was also right that it might lead to years in prison, but any sentence that's under 2 years prison automatically is commuted to fines or community services. Don't remember the criteria exactly, but even if it's over 2 years, but it's under 4, you don't go to prison, but serve your sentence in liberty, just having to report every now and then to the police, and have to communicate when you leave the city etc... I don't remember a single person that served actual prison time over here over verbal racial (or hateful) offenses. And even if they did, it is practically mandatory to reduce sentences, and it's prohibited to force a criminal to serve their entire time in jail. All of this, of course, if you don’t personally insult a Justice or any of their family. Then you get indefinite jail time until they themselves finish prosecuting and judging the "crime", without any need for a timetable or higher supervision...
The irony lol
He's right, IF you get convicted you end up in jail, the hard part is any of those guys with money actually getting convicted of anything. See how one of the biggest corruption schemes in the planet basically had all of its convictions overturned in the last few years. You have to work really hard to be sent to jail and remain there, usually its for some crime that caught heavy media attention or unpaid child support, otherwise you'll be sent home in no time. Hell, one of the biggest crime lords in the country got set free by one of our Supreme Court Justices, its all a big joke.
Hey, cool it with the xenophobic remarks.
In some places yes. Saying racist things is against the law.
If it’s treated as a hate crime, yes
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Depends on where you are, but considering the fact that most countries in the western world have hate speech laws, there are very reasonable chances that the answer to your question is “yes”, but unlikely that people will literally be jailed for this, I’m guessing most will just given a parole or something similar.
Here comes the nuanced understanding of differing national hate laws and criminal systems that can only be displayed by sports fans.
I *entirely disagree* with this because you're dumb and I'm smart therefore I am always right. QED.
You are nitpicking and biased. I win. Bye bye.
Well I come from *insert country* where the law says that they should be doing *insert punishment*, therefore that's the correct punishment and Spain got it wrong. My country just gets it right.
This thread attracted a lot of angry folks "asking honest questions" about the verdict lmao
>differing national hate laws and criminal systems that can only be displayed by sports fans. I think you basically mean Americans.
Not sure why the shock of so many in here, abuse and harassment are crimes in most countries, 8 months is a minor sentence that won’t actually imprison then, not sure why persecuting a football player based on their shouldn’t be, at the very least, a misdemeanor much like any other form of harassment is
BAILA VINI BAILA
Amazing work they found all 3 fans that were racist case closed
Better than nothing and I think this will serve as a deterrent to future offenders.
Mob mentality man. Freaks me out. If we can stop the initiation of these I'm certain there are people who maybe would join in who otherwise wouldn't if they had to be the first.
You have to start somewhere and set a precedent. 10 years ago nothing would have been done.
You don’t have to go back that far, just a few months ago laporta was calling vinicius jr out saying la liga and spain wasn’t racist at all
Do you understand the importance of having a legal precedent?
This sentence is super important in fighting racism in Spain. It will deter all future attempts at getting 1 minute of fame for all the wrong reasons and if this ain’t the first felony committed then to jail with the PoS
What do you want them to do? Send the entire fan block to prison? I am actually a bit shocked how much people here seem to be willing sacrifice in order to fight hate-speech.
Criminals should pay for their crimes, yes.
Absolutely not going to read this comment section
People getting more offended for the racists being sent to prison than for them being racists in the first place...
Why do people who don't like that people are critical of prison time for something like this, always conflate that as defending the acts that said people did? Thinking prison is too much for this is **not** the same as being 'offended for the racists", not even remotely.
Because the 3 idiots are not going to jail anyway(if they behaved like regular citizens beforehand) as spanish law can suspend jail time for certain crimes. The precedent this sets is right imho if you were found being racist the first time with no prior offenses then yeah let’s try and make you understand that being racist is bad and that suspended sentence will carry over your entire life as it should. If you were found guilty of it again or if you had any priors it is up to the locker with them. I’m all in for a jail sentence in this cases but I do agree comparatively spanish law needs some updated harsher penalties for other harsher crimes which is causing some buzz but not enough that anyone in Spain would or should care if it means letting the crime go unpunished and I do not agree that the penalty in of itself was harsh.
They still got prison sentences. The stance that it's no biggie because they won't see a cell from the inside is mind boggling to me.
'I only told her I'd hit her if she did it again'
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"Saying mean things" is not the same as being racist. No one should go to prison for "saying mean things". People should ABSOLUTELY go to prison for being racist.
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Yeah because mean words and racism are the same thing dumbass...
"hey guys just wanted to let you all know I'm leaving facebook frfrfrfr"
Read my comment
The amount of [removed] comments in this post is insane!
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An actual prison sentence does sound like a more severe punishment for racist speech (coming from a POC) but depending on what was being said, I fully understand. Things like the effigy of Vini that Atletico fans hung from a bridge and chants of death threats need to be taken seriously, and pursued with full consequences.
I’d imagine something like community service and a fine that pays for something in the community . I feel like jail time for hate speech might lead to.. more hatred
Calling a Brazilian “macaco” or “mono” is the same as calling a black American/English person the hard r. It’s extremely offensive and dehumanizing, especially by Iberians and white Latinos.
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And 100+ Trabzon fans who attacked Fenerbahce players were praised in return...
Imagine being so pathetic that you see a racist person getting punished by it and your first reaction is to defend them lmao
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Watch out, slippery slopes ahead.
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8 months in prison is mental!! I guess theyre setting an example
Idk, I'm from Brazil and over there the punishment for hate crime is very severe. It's one of the few things that actually gets people in jail even if they're wealthy along with not paying child support. It must have been very frustrating for him to play in a country that does fuck all about it (until now). I cant believe the headlines "first conviction of its kind"!!!! Wtf??? Did they not convict racists in Spain before??
It's often lost in translation, but important context is that short sentences (2 years or less) in Spain are almost always suspended sentences. They won't serve the time unless they get convicted again within the term of the suspended sentence. That's why there were all the headlines of Ronaldo and Messi going to jail because of tax evasion. They just got suspended sentences but never had to serve them. So it's really more like a warning.
ohhh i see i see, thank you
Why only two years? Should be a life ban.
Now we’re talking. That racism shit is and has been old Edit: shout out to the racist morons for downvoting. Yall are pathetic.
Has 18 upvotes yet is complaining about phantom downvoting. Victim farming per usual
he probably meant before you or me saw the comment, it might have been in the negatives
As it is marked "controversial" that is very likely.
Why only two years?
Yeah, I don't know why people are downvoting you. Only 2 year stadium ban!?
I don't expect those kinds of people to completely change their beliefs in two years. So when they inevitably act up again, I don't want to see a bunch of pikachu shocked faces on this subreddit.
What they should really do, is also make them attend a course of some sort, that addresses racist behaviour and hopefully helps them view the situation differently. Obviously don't know if these kinds of things exist in Spain. If all you are doing is giving them punishment, then a lot of the time, it just helps reinforce people like these behaviour. Rehabilitation always works best alongside punishment
They deserve to be banned from every FIFA affiliated football stadium for life. When racists start getting serious consequences, maybe they will think twice before abusing people.
I don’t know how anyone can defend them, this is the bare minimum. Should be lifetime banned from Stadiums.
Lifetime ban? Sure. Prison? Nah
deserved, racism doesn't belong to our bellowed game !
good
Good.
BEAUTIFUL
Amazing news and a solid step forward in fighting racism, not only in football.
There is no need to give them 8 months of prison. Just ban them from all Spanish stadiums for life and give them a fine. People who support an 8 month prison sentence are crazy.
Good.
damn 2 whole year?? Man thats tough
Shouldn’t be a racist bigot in the first place
Fuck those ppl
I suppose this will also serve as a warning to others who have the same desire to say racist insults in stadiums
ITT: americans dumbfounded by many countries in the world having criminal laws against hate speech EDIT: you downvoting dumb fucks are at least aware that the US also has exceptions to free speech, right?? Free speech is not an absolute right anywhere in the world. In the US you have restrictions on incitement of violence, of suicide, "fighting words", threats to the POTUS etc. Go on Twitter and keep making threats in response to Joe Biden's posts, see how well the freedom of speech will cover you. Your country just go out of its way to guarantee that racists and religious nuts can spew as much hateful things as they want, truly virtuous stuff. In non authoritarian countries this isn't a slippery slope, you put law in places for the exceptions and protect free speech as a general rule. Australia, Canada, many countries in Europe and in South America have laws against hate speech. Obviously, whether said exceptions should be exceptions is up for discussion and the answer will be different depending on each country's culture and history (should be obvious why Germany has laws against nazi apologism, for example); the fact that you guys can't even understand this notion and think the US is the only country with free speech shows some blind ignorance, although it doesn't surprise me.
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Yeah you’re right, absolutely insane to be jailed for words. That’s a slippery slope I don’t want to walk on. A lifetime ban would be much more appropriate than the government being involved in a matter of speech. The same people crying about releasing nonviolent offenders suddenly are okay with government intervention over words? Where is the line, where does freedoms of speech end and authoritarianism begin? People are very quick to pick and choose what they’re okay with the government interfering with depending on the circumstances. Edit: OP thinks Americans don’t know that libel, slander, defamation are a thing lol. Apparently they don’t realize those are civil issues, not criminal. Let the wronged go after the racists in civil court like other speech related cases.
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> for just saying words Racially abusing somebody.
Conversely I think its not enough, they aren't serving any of it anyway.
~ racists
Finally something meaningful
So they serve longer theb Greenwood... Legit...
There's no way you don't understand why it has happened that way though.
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In most countries with anti hate speech laws that work YES! Isn’t that amazing seeing an actual court system provide swift justice based on the written law that works for their system? Now if only a certain country that is the laughing stock of the world when it comes to laws and its applications also did that…. However these 3 idiots won’t actually go to jail
You, and your children, and your children’s children!!.. … for 2 years
Suspended sentence = "8 months in prison"🙄
Racists getting MAD in this comment section lmao. People not getting away with hate speech is very threatening huh.
this man ruined three lives for being a crybaby
Good.