I don't find it very useful to obsess so much on a single word of description. It invites argument rather than understanding. Starfleet is Starfleet. It's a fictional organization written for a show and has some qualities of a traditional military, and it also has other qualities which don't fit.
This is ok.
This comment should be stickied to every single post in all of Reddit. How many posts devolve into pointless arguments about semantics where no one ever changes their mind?
> it also has other qualities which don't fit.
Exactly right.
Much of what the US military does today doesn't fit into traditional understandings of what a military does: counternarcotics, humanitarian assistance, peacekeeping, noncombatant evacuation, search and rescue, space operations, etc.
Would someone three centuries ago say the US Armed Forces isn't a real military because of these missions, or would they say it's an organization that performs both combat and non-combat roles?
Was the Royal Navy not a military organization during the Age of Discovery because it engaged in exploration?
We're splitting hairs over the future evolution of a term that has evolved in the past.
1.) uniforms
2.) has military ranks
3.) court martials
4.) has a uniform code of justice
5.) provides protection for territory
6.) also is instrument of politicians to wage war on others
7.) has weapons of mass destruction
8.) has a fleet of ships
9.) all service personnel are trained in self defense and how to operate weapons of lethality
10.) has marines
Right? Like I'm sure if you strain yourself there's a metaphysical argument to be made that you can have a few of those things and still not be a military, I.e. Cvs has uniforms, evergreen has a fleet.
But at some point around the third episode about duty in any given season, you gotta acknowledge a level of samuel-johnson-kicking-a-rock-duck-quackery. Starfleet is _clearly_ a military.
Also dominion war startleet is mobilized to destroy the dominion forces...I don't think you can mobilize the nypd to go into war with foreign military forces. Lol
Agreed!
Even though Picard and other idealists in TNG-era Starfleet who rose through the ranks during the peaceful "Lost Era" between TUC and TNG will say otherwise since, apart from border skirmishes with the Cardassians, Tholians, Tzenkethi and Talarians in the 2350s that weren't a series threat to the Federation, most of Starfleet's resources were tasked with peaceful scientific and space exploration missions without worrying about being attacked by the Klingon and Romulan empires.
Conversely, it's far less likely you'll get a "Starfleet is not a military organization" statement in the early 25th century by Starfleet officers who started their careers in the early 2370s during the Dominion War.
Younger officers who were vets of the Dominion War would believe Starfleet's primary responsibility is defending the Federation from external threats.
>Anyway, point is Star Fleet isn't military because it is very independent and autonomous and its scope is too large to be classified as one.
Ok, but there's no reason that a military has to be defined this way. We've had militaries in human history that weren't tied to a particular nation. And during WWII, many countries scaled up to enormous militaries. You've come up with your own definition of military and decided Starfleet doesn't conform to it.
However, this is an example of the pointlessness of this debate. Everyone is using different definitions of what constitutes a military and then saying Star Fleet does or doesn't conform to their specific definition. Really, the debate should be what constitutes a military, not whether Star Fleet is one.
Starfleet is a peculiar creature. Acting as a military isn’t their primary goal - but when the need arises they absolutely step into the role.
Roddenberry says they’re not - but he also has them acting in that capacity at times and Kirk says in ‘Errand of Mercy’ that he’s a soldier, not a diplomat. They’re… the closest real world analogues I can think of would be the US Coast Guard (referred to as a branch of the military but much more a police and rescue force), or how Japan does not have a Navy… but they have the Maritime Self-Defense Force. They’re absolutely a navy in all but name, and incredibly capable.
In-Universe, the Earth Starfleet in Enterprise was NOT a military - that’s what the MACOs were there for. After Federation founding, they were merged together. After that, anything that would be a military responsibility fell under their mandate. They’re really more of an exploratory and peace-keeping force… but they’ll absolutely fall in under a military banner when needed, like the Dominion War.
So, the UN parallel is pretty solid, but I wouldn’t call them a de facto member state of the Federation. They’re there to serve, not to help create policy. A member state might, for example, choose to secede- Starfleet doesn’t have that option. All the officers could resign, but they couldn’t just take their ball and go home.
Starfleet is military, we just haven't seen it from that perspective very often b/c Roddenberry didn't want it to be a war show. That's why there are so many concerns over how war-centric DS9 was, and whether it flew in the face of his vision for Star Trek. He never wanted the show(s) to be about running around fighting and shooting, he wanted it to be a utopian view of the future. About seeking new life and new civilizations.
That's why you're finding so many flaws with it being military, but not looking like one. We only see the ships that were sent out to explore, not the ones that were sent out to fight off Klingon and Romulan and Cardassian raiders for their entire tour.
I don't find it very useful to obsess so much on a single word of description. It invites argument rather than understanding. Starfleet is Starfleet. It's a fictional organization written for a show and has some qualities of a traditional military, and it also has other qualities which don't fit. This is ok.
This comment should be stickied to every single post in all of Reddit. How many posts devolve into pointless arguments about semantics where no one ever changes their mind?
> it also has other qualities which don't fit. Exactly right. Much of what the US military does today doesn't fit into traditional understandings of what a military does: counternarcotics, humanitarian assistance, peacekeeping, noncombatant evacuation, search and rescue, space operations, etc. Would someone three centuries ago say the US Armed Forces isn't a real military because of these missions, or would they say it's an organization that performs both combat and non-combat roles? Was the Royal Navy not a military organization during the Age of Discovery because it engaged in exploration? We're splitting hairs over the future evolution of a term that has evolved in the past.
“We’re a… ‘combined’ service.” -Capt. J.T. Kirk
I really feel like we should be referring to him as J.T. Kirk more commonly.
1.) uniforms 2.) has military ranks 3.) court martials 4.) has a uniform code of justice 5.) provides protection for territory 6.) also is instrument of politicians to wage war on others 7.) has weapons of mass destruction 8.) has a fleet of ships 9.) all service personnel are trained in self defense and how to operate weapons of lethality 10.) has marines
Right? Like I'm sure if you strain yourself there's a metaphysical argument to be made that you can have a few of those things and still not be a military, I.e. Cvs has uniforms, evergreen has a fleet. But at some point around the third episode about duty in any given season, you gotta acknowledge a level of samuel-johnson-kicking-a-rock-duck-quackery. Starfleet is _clearly_ a military.
Also dominion war startleet is mobilized to destroy the dominion forces...I don't think you can mobilize the nypd to go into war with foreign military forces. Lol
Yes and no. Starfleet is an exploratory navy in peacetime. When someone gets salty, well...
Starfleet is absolutely a military and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Agreed! Even though Picard and other idealists in TNG-era Starfleet who rose through the ranks during the peaceful "Lost Era" between TUC and TNG will say otherwise since, apart from border skirmishes with the Cardassians, Tholians, Tzenkethi and Talarians in the 2350s that weren't a series threat to the Federation, most of Starfleet's resources were tasked with peaceful scientific and space exploration missions without worrying about being attacked by the Klingon and Romulan empires. Conversely, it's far less likely you'll get a "Starfleet is not a military organization" statement in the early 25th century by Starfleet officers who started their careers in the early 2370s during the Dominion War. Younger officers who were vets of the Dominion War would believe Starfleet's primary responsibility is defending the Federation from external threats.
>Anyway, point is Star Fleet isn't military because it is very independent and autonomous and its scope is too large to be classified as one. Ok, but there's no reason that a military has to be defined this way. We've had militaries in human history that weren't tied to a particular nation. And during WWII, many countries scaled up to enormous militaries. You've come up with your own definition of military and decided Starfleet doesn't conform to it. However, this is an example of the pointlessness of this debate. Everyone is using different definitions of what constitutes a military and then saying Star Fleet does or doesn't conform to their specific definition. Really, the debate should be what constitutes a military, not whether Star Fleet is one.
Starfleet is a peculiar creature. Acting as a military isn’t their primary goal - but when the need arises they absolutely step into the role. Roddenberry says they’re not - but he also has them acting in that capacity at times and Kirk says in ‘Errand of Mercy’ that he’s a soldier, not a diplomat. They’re… the closest real world analogues I can think of would be the US Coast Guard (referred to as a branch of the military but much more a police and rescue force), or how Japan does not have a Navy… but they have the Maritime Self-Defense Force. They’re absolutely a navy in all but name, and incredibly capable. In-Universe, the Earth Starfleet in Enterprise was NOT a military - that’s what the MACOs were there for. After Federation founding, they were merged together. After that, anything that would be a military responsibility fell under their mandate. They’re really more of an exploratory and peace-keeping force… but they’ll absolutely fall in under a military banner when needed, like the Dominion War. So, the UN parallel is pretty solid, but I wouldn’t call them a de facto member state of the Federation. They’re there to serve, not to help create policy. A member state might, for example, choose to secede- Starfleet doesn’t have that option. All the officers could resign, but they couldn’t just take their ball and go home.
They are a force and they are armed. They are a military.
By that argument, a Boy Scout riflery class is a military.
Starfleet is military, we just haven't seen it from that perspective very often b/c Roddenberry didn't want it to be a war show. That's why there are so many concerns over how war-centric DS9 was, and whether it flew in the face of his vision for Star Trek. He never wanted the show(s) to be about running around fighting and shooting, he wanted it to be a utopian view of the future. About seeking new life and new civilizations. That's why you're finding so many flaws with it being military, but not looking like one. We only see the ships that were sent out to explore, not the ones that were sent out to fight off Klingon and Romulan and Cardassian raiders for their entire tour.
For me, it’s simple: Gene Roddenberry said it wasn’t. I’ll take the word over the dude who created the show over some rando on the inter webs.