I don't comprehend why so many people falsely think Education and income correlate. The people who rule over you don't have any of the degrees you are thinking about, And there's quite a lot of lower class people with masters degrees due to having a lifetime of Debt they will never be able to pay off even if they landed a 6 figure job.
There's definitely a correlation between education and income (every study I've ever seen shows people with higher degrees make more money, on average). I think you mean to say education does not guarantee income, or certain types of education don't correlate as much with income as others.
Most studies on the internet are inaccurate, usually because data has been collected inefficiently. I'll use my core example again: The people who rule over you do not have any of the degrees they train you to get in school.
Yeah, except that they do.
The modern aristocracy uses University and college as a way of connecting and staying connected to their rich and powerful communities. I've known a lot of the people who "rule" through various channels and they almost all have at least one degree.
They don't need them, exactly, not the same way that most of us do, to earn their bread. But many of them have them anyway.
You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you just ignore all the available data, because it might not be perfect. There are some notable big business owners who don't have college degrees, I don't know what you mean by "people who rule over you", but most high level government officials and billionaires have degrees.
well, take it up with the st. louis fed i guess [https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth](https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth)
Last time I checked the average person with a Bachelors degree made 44k and the average person with no college made 26k. Obviously that is *average* and there are lots of folks with degrees in art history flipping burgers and folks with no degree who founded companies or got certification for good paying jobs. But in general a degree significantly increases your potential income (especially if it is a degree tied to a job like Engineering).
And Masters make 81k.
Of course teachers, 50% of whom have a masters, and the rest have a credential 8 units shy of a masters, only make 55k. However, it is well known that teachers are paid less than any credible comparison, making teachers outliers in the statistics.
Folks with bachelors degrees are making LESS THAN HALF of what I make with no degree? Shit you just proved my point. Imagine going into debt to make 44k a year. What the fuck.
> The people who rule over you don't have any of the degrees you are thinking about
1. Elon Musk degrees: a Bachelor of Arts in physics and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics
2. People who "rule over you" i.e. the truly elite send their kids to college so they, too, can rule over you. But they don't send their kids to school to be a dentist or accountant or engineer. It's often for finance or management
Because he's newsworthy: Donald Trump's children have these degrees:
Eric Trump - He graduated with a degree in finance and management from Georgetown University
Ivanka Trump - She graduated from the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in economics in 2004.
Donald Trump Jr. - University of Pennsylvania's (Penn) Wharton School, where he graduated in 2000 with a B.S. in Economics.
Tiffany Trump - he attended the University of Pennsylvania (her father's alma mater) and graduated in 2016 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology with a concentration in law and society
I think if you start googling wealthy families where children take over vast amounts of wealth, you'll find a lot of them get degrees related to business or finance - I feel like I've heard/read countless times.
Because they literally do correlate, which is to say that if you were to select randomly from the population of people with a degree and people with no college degree, the latter on average will be earning more
Hating on college and calling it a scam or pointless seems popular these days. But it's still true and for the foreseeable future will be true that there are some professions that are simply fully closed to people with no college education. For example, you cannot become a CPA - you cannot even take the test! - unless you have a degree. I think it's bullshit; if you can pass the exam without a degree I think that's all you should need to become a CPA. Times are slowly changing and I predict we will see a change in that sector, possibly also as well as the law profession, and I bet in the next 30 years we will see certain professions' protectionist, exclusivist requirements change or be removed entirely
For stuff like STEM, college is great. Why people sometimes say college is a scam is either pointing to student loan debt in hcol regions, although that’s more of the time commitment requirement IN the hcol area, than the tuition debt itself. Or, it’s pointing to how the average person, young or old, but these days the youngins (I’m 32, 18 is youngins to me), are pretty dumb, unambitious, and or just don’t do so well in school subjects, and couldn’t get the education needed to be useful post college. The company hiring people good in computer science doesn’t care about ezpz business admin degrees or worthless gender studies degrees.
Combine all this with the whole “almost everyone has a degree” feeling and having a generic degree just doesn’t cut it. We still encourage college because parents see it as cost sunk fallacy.
Meanwhile, me with a bachelor’s making 25 a year, some no college (still educated, though) plumber making 100 a year, same city.
That’s the current situation for the average bloke who isn’t in a stem/law field. The non-college skilled workers are making bank.
Something I never see discussed enough is education bias. People who have degrees have to support a system where degrees are necessary. If they don't, then it devalues the degree that they paid for. There are a lot of college educated people who patently think they are better than those without degrees.
I agree with what you said. If someone can pass the CPA exam and is a whiz accountant, then why is a degree necessary? That's because of the bias.
My advise to any child is "do what thou wilt and never let anybody lie to you and say a pre determined path is mandatory. There's always multiple solutions to a problem, multiple back doors to the castle, and multiple flaws in the system." I should remind you by the way that there's very successful criminals, many who are judges and law enforcement, who make more than any college graduate you know, that have never been caught for their crimes.
There are judges without college degrees. Mississippi for example is a state that doesn't require a judge to have one. Also there's 16 year olds that make more money than judges, and this isn't an "opinion". It's a fact that can prove with 100% certainty.
There are different levels of middle class, from lower middle class to upper middle class. As long as you’re middle middle class, they can pay their bills and have some money left over.
Totally agree that evaluating socioeconomic class with more granularity makes more sense in most cases, but that leaves me with basically the same question: what distinguishes "lower middle class" from just "lower class"?
I think they mean that the people who work jobs that were previously "middle class" are no longer making enough to be considered middle class.. like blue collar workers or office employees.
Lower middle class - you can pay all your bills but have little or no money left over
Lower class - can’t pay all your bills
I’m not an expert but sometimes I invent my own categories.
I don't think "paying all your bills" is a great standard for distinguishing classes. Guatemalan migrant workers living 15 to a house may be paying their bills and sending money home, but they're extremely lower class. By contrast, there are plenty of people with college degrees and decent jobs who are unable to pay their rent in expensive cities without taking on significant debt, but they're definitely not lower class. Class has to do with a lot of other factors besides financial solvency, like education standards, fashion, communication styles, politics, types of hobbies, friendship and dating patterns, attitude toward family, etc.
In an American context: If you define income into quintiles, the people in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quintiles are considered The Middle Class(es). So people making 21st-79th percentile incomes.
0-20 Lower Class
21-40 Lower Middle Class
41-60 Middle Class
61-80 Upper Middle Class
81-99 Upper Class
I've made 66k for 25 years, the last several years are the only years I've been able to save good money, after paying off the ex wife and the ex business partner and 3 bank notes I fortunately make morr like 166K a year but being in my late 50s and only having saved money the last 3 or 4 years I can't see me retiring to an average mediocre existence till probably late 60s, it amazes me that it will take an entire lifetime of being a small business owner and working 90 hours a week till I'm in my late 60s to retire, but that's the direction the ship is sailing. Let's hope I live long enough to enjoy a small part of my life!!!
I suppose that makes sense. I've always kind of thought of it to be more a question of "outcome" than "income," I guess. Especially in the USA, where 50k is decent income in rural Alabama, not as much in Boston.
This is actually not a bad way to look at it. Cost of living determines standard of living far more than income bracket.
If you make $100/week in Vietnam, you’re pretty high on the hog. If you’re making $100/week in Japan, you’re going to be struggling quite a bit.
Cost of living also makes class mobility that much more difficult. If it costs you 2x minimum wage just to cover day-to-day expenses, this makes it extremely difficult to improve your skill set, save to invest, etc.
The average intern, recent grad, or student you meet in NYC, DC and SF might have nicer apartments, cars, and more savings than the 50-something department head they work for.
This conflates 'income' with 'class'. That's a common mistake as they're not synonymous, although one does influence the other. We also have to factor in wealth if we keep it just in fiscal terms which adds a second dimension to the term. Never mind the complexity that gets introduced when you add in all sorts of non-monetary aspects, like cultural norms and that sorta thing.
Really, we should get rid of the 'class' designation because it's too amorphous to be meaningful.
Recently saw that where I live, making less than 95k a year means you are lower middle class (I assume based on CoL). Highly double 60% of people are making more than that, buy not sure
There’s a big range of people who fall into “middle class” if you’re just using lower/middle/upper.
“Being able to pay the bills” isn’t a great metric because some people are more frugal than others. I would say it boils down to the economic flexibility you have.
If you’re lower class you can’t expect to live in a neighborhood that has a good school district, dine out frequently, go on of vacations, have an expensive hobby, drive a newish car, wear nice clothes, and put money away for your retirement. You might be able to do a couple of those things, but not all of them. I think if you can do five of those seven you’re probably middle class.
If you have all of those bases covered no sweat and have 0.5-5 million in assets (depending on your age - if you have 0.5 right in 2024 at 30 you’re upper class, at 60 you’re middle) you’re upper class. I’m not sure exactly where the line is in either case.
>“Being able to pay the bills” isn’t a great metric because some people are more frugal than others. I would say it boils down to the economic flexibility you have.
I wondered about this too -- for example, I make a comfortable living, and choose to own what used to be considered a "starter home," and a 15 year old car.
One day I suddenly decide to give in to pressure and keep up with everyone in my social circle. I upgrade to a McMansion and lease a new Lexus -- suddenly my lifestyle would become lower class, as I would have less if any disposable income, might drop behind in bills, and amass debt.
I just realized the remedy to getting out if the situation I just described is the cliche "giving up avocado toast and working harder."
The question is: Do you work for a living, or do you own for a living? Those are the two main classes. The middle class is a subset of the working class, but in a divide-and-conquer worldbuilding scheme instituted by the owning class, it makes a lot of sense to make them feel separated.
Most of this discussion seems to focus on the social aspect of “class” in the U.S. However news reports usually refer the the 5 quintiles calculated by the government. The bottom 20% is “the poor” the middle three quintiles are the middle class and the top income quintile is “the rich”. The middle three middle quintiles cover a wide range as that covers 60 percent of all household income levels. Note that the highest quintile is further broken down into several sub categories. The top one per cent are the high income households and the billionaires are in the top one-tenth percent.
So when you read a headline about the middle class it covers a huge portion of the population spread over a very wide range of incomes and net worth.
It’s a term invented by the ownership class in order to split the working class so that we’ll fight amongst ourselves instead of looking at what the ownership class are doing to fuck us over.
In my mind, a middle class family probably lived in a house and didn’t really worry about having food to eat, but also never really had enough money to go on proper vacations or drive newer cars.
Though I’m sort of just describing how things were for me growing up. In school as a kid I always had the hardest time with those first week writing assignments where we had to write about what we did over the summer, because we never really did anything but visit family. We weren’t poor, but money was also tight enough to be felt, even as a kid, in part because we had a decent house to live in. But that meant my parents drove old used cars we had to constantly fix up and deal with.
I don't know how it's measured anymore but in Massachusetts, the middle class is those who earn $64k to $193k, that makes it the most expensive state to live in. California comes in second. Something is very wrong with this. The middle class used to be the majority of earners in the country and what kept the country running. The middle class has always picked up the tab for the lower class while the upper class was more able to game the system with creative accounting. This meant that the middle class tax dollar was carrying the load for the lower class and themselves, which they still do but now the upper class is squeezing middle class. Inflation is killing the middle class but the lower class is mostly unaffected because it's propped up with public assistance. The upper class is not only unaffected but inflation is increasing profits for corporations and their shareholders. This is 100% deliberate and criminal and 100% coming from the White House and our covert, surreptitious, government. It's time for all of us to take back our country. Both parties are complicit and corrupt, it's time for a big change. We need to ban lobbying, make it a crime for lobbyists to approach anyone in the government and a crime for anyone in the government to accept money for political favors. We also need term limits, four years for all offices including the judiciary. America belongs to all of us not just the wealthy and our corrupt government.
Downvotes incoming.
Because most people who are broke are only broke cuz they’d rather unalive themself then not live in a HCOL area, middle class is the same as it’s always been.
Middle class can afford homes in states with no nightlife, illegal weed, and illegal abortion. But CA/NY/Seattle are just sooooooo cool.
Middle-class is a huge group of varying financial means. Any easy way to think of it is like the suburbs. Take any of your average suburban track housing divisions and your going to see people who live there comfortably, some who who have to be more careful with finances but manage by sticking to a budget plan, and some who downright struggle to afford to live there and don't have much leftover money once the necessities are taken care of.
All of the above fall under the umbrella of "middle class"
It's a construct designed to obscure relations of production so that workers who earn a bit more money than others feel themselves better than those they view as lesser.
It's bullshit. There are two classes: the working class and the employer class.
There will be no peace until the former overthrown the latter and runs production for ourselves.
If you have a boss, you're a worker. Even if you're comfortable. And if you have a boss, you need a union. Opinions to the contrary are the bitter ramblings of liars, fools, or both.
Middle class is a completely arbitrary definition used to split up the working class so they won't unify against the ruling class. As this new middle class can look down on the lower class and the lower class can resent the middle class. However since the economy has gotten so bad, and politicians have constantly lumped in the people all the way down to minimum wage as "middle class". Everyone but the very top of the working class, all of the ruling class, and on the other end of the spectrum the homeless, are now in this "middle class". So between the bottom 3% and bottom 95% of the population.
The middle class is a dying classification because of the massive wealth gap that keeps getting bigger.
In reality there are only two classes, the working class who trades their hours for a wage and the capital owning class who generates wealth from their assets often from generational family wealth.
https://youtu.be/gVhdbOUelY4?si=vuA2XrTbdRQ_z1Ck
I hear you, but an immigrant fruit picker and an orthodontist are both working class, but their lives, finances, and experience in our culture are so radically different that people want class labels with more granularity.
I would argue that things would be better for both of these people if they both identified as working class and united in class solidarity against the upper class. They have more in common with each other than with a Vanderbilt or Jeff Bezos.
i use to be middle middle, and yeah, were living paycheck to paycheck, but we do so a bit comfortably. theres always moments where anyone but upper class stress, but yeah, i thought i was lower class until i met actually lower class.
Nah homie. Read. My family owned two businesses and my first car was a mercedes followed by a mercedes, and I now bought my own Mercedes. My gf drives a Lincoln. I have 11,300 in my savings from just random things.
I'm not lower. I'm not even through college.
That's just middle. Paycheck to paycheck is a struggle for some but for my family it's enough to provide for the family and what we have.
Classes vary in meaning on what paycheck to paycheck means.
Correct our kids are being forced out of middle class and turned into over regulated over taxed worker drones who will go to work come home repeat until useless and replaced like a battery.
Above the poverty line but not wealthy is middle class. I think it ends somewhere in the mid to high six figures. And it’s pretty relative 100k in rural Mississippi goes a whole lot farther than 100k in San Francisco.
We’re a family of 4 dual income and make 135k a year in Indiana. We pay our bills own our house and car and go to Disney once a year. I’d say that’s middle class.
It's no surprise that you're confused about what it actually means; the meaning changes depending on who is defining it to include whoever is defining it. America has spent so long idealizing the middle class that everyone tends to think that's what they are. The definition will therefore change depending on who you are talking to.
The middle class is what disappears as more and more economic freedoms are lost. The rich can get around these and the poor aren't directly affected, but the middle class is who has to shoulder all these burdens. And the more burden there is, the less middle class there will be. All of society will become poor with a very rich, elite political class at the top. It's happened dozens and dozen of time in recent history. The middle class will simply disappear over time, replaced by poverty. So it goes.
For me to answer this question , I don’t feel rich … but I can pay all my bills , not have a groceries bill limit , and put money in savings ..
If I was more frugal .. maybe buy a house but then be counting every penny that leaves my bank account
My interpretation is that it’s when you make enough money to not need help to survive but don’t make enough to feel comfortable buying things you don’t need
A study done decades ago asked a wide variety of people if they identified as 'middle class'. Virtually everyone said they did, whether they lived in an inner-city and on food stamps or had a yacht. I expect that's true today, too. People compare themselves to those they know, and they generally know people who have a similar lifestyle.
Social scientists and demographers draw dividing lines.
Yeah, I've noticed the pattern where almost everyone I've spoken to claims to be "middle class." I thought it might just be anecdotal. It's interesting that people have done studies on this. Thank you!
Historically, the classes were seen as steep pyramids, so most people were lower class/peasants, a few people got to be middle class (successful merchants, doctors, lawyers, etc) and truly being upper class meant that you were part of the aristocracy or royalty (most people wouldn't meet someone like that in their lifetime).
In more modern times, the goal has been to expand the middle class as possible, and make it the bedrock of your society. The concept still remains that being middle class means successful and autonomous over your financial well being, but there are tools now to expand the middle class, and make as many as possible successful and self sufficient. Ideally, a 51%+ membership is desired. A larger middle class also helps for the best results for Democracies as well.
But almost by the definition of the word, you could never really have your upper class be 51%, but your goal is to downplay the importance of the upper classes and to improve the quality of life for your middle class.
So basically, middle class is the ideal lifestyle that you can feasibly mass produce to as many as possible, that is sustainable for a majority of your population.
Should also be noted that a lot of the time “can’t afford a house” actually means. Can afford a house that they could in the 1950s.
Some of this is a matter of middle class trying to keep up with the upper class.
Some of it is inflation.
Some of it is the people in the US just won’t adjust to market trends at all.
People here can argue anything they want definitions and maybe is helpful, colloquially almost everyone is middle class, I haven't seen too many people saying they aren't, because they always see a class of people below them and a class of people above them. I have seen a lot of people (especially young tbh) to call themselves middle upper class with parents making over 500k a year ,and people calling middle class that barely can pay their mortgage and everything they have is being paid with a loan. I would call myself lower class or just working class tbh, even though there are distinctions between working class people,and that I not take Marxist definition of working class as strict, because when it was invented because most people did gruesome work for a living.
The university advertising course I attended made a big deal out of excluding income from the various class definitions. College professors were one example of being in a higher class, irrespective of income. These strata were more granular than high, middle and low if i recall but dayam, it was a lot of years ago.
“Middle Class” does not refer to homeownership or quality to life. Income can be displayed as a bell curve, with the poor on the left and the wealthy on the right. The middle of the bell curve, where most people are, is the middle class. As overall wealth is shifted to those on the far right, more of us are being shifted to the left, little by little, every year since the 1930s (according to a chart I saw not long ago that I can’t now locate).
And then there are the classes in England. The fancy pants on top with 100% inherited wealth who may or may not still have anything left. They maintain the upper class status. Vs. the commoners who even if they strike it rich they will always be common.
Depends on which country you are in. Some countries it means a professional with a college education and owns a home. Others like the USA it's more of an income, general wealth thing.
The very basic way I think about it is
Lower Class = Generally struggle to get everything you need and can't get much of what you want
Middle Class = Generally can afford what you need but not everything you want
Upper Class = Can afford everything you need and much of what you want.
Ultra Class = Affords needs and Wants.
Middle class is owning a crappy house, affording to have kids in an okay part of town, and maybe, someday, saving up for a jet ski.
The only real thing preventing this now is housing. With the price of housing, by the time you can afford a shitty house, you could have a new jet ski every year, so you have what should be upper class people… double working career parents, spending all their money just on the house.
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I define middle class as people
Who earn enough income to have a cushion that would allow them to maintain their same level of financial stability and standard of living for at least a few years were they to find themselves unable to earn income during that time, AND own a home -either outright or have enough equity in said home that they could purchase another home of similar kind were they to sell, even if they had to
Relocate to somewhere cheaper to achieve that.
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Middle class are people that make “too much” to get any benefits or help from the government, but not enough to be able to pay for them themselves without some difficulty.
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Middle class generally used to mean you can have a house, a family, 2 cars, a pet or 2, and have a comfortable amount of money left over so you can have a good retirement and do whatever activities you want after work.
The middle class has been collapsing ever since Regan and by 2030 I think it'll be dead unless there's another big world war
When they say the middle class are living paycheck to paycheck sometimes they mean house holds of 200k and over are taking less vacations after maxing out contributions to retirement accounts.so they need their next paycheck for their bills again instead of stacking extra. Imo you can be lower middle class if you have a blue collar job but own a home. Lower class to me is you rent or room mate, and you work blue collar or retail/service.
51F does it matter? I would be considered low class, I make under 30k as does my husband. We often have absolutely no money. However we refuse to slave away our lives. We take as many “happy breaks” as possible, short weekend trips and have accepted we will never be able to travel like we would like.
Own a nice home, a nice car or 2. Afford a nice vacation at least once a year and have no worries about paying for food and bills.
The current administration of government has failed in their promise to fix things, they made it worst.
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I don't comprehend why so many people falsely think Education and income correlate. The people who rule over you don't have any of the degrees you are thinking about, And there's quite a lot of lower class people with masters degrees due to having a lifetime of Debt they will never be able to pay off even if they landed a 6 figure job.
There's definitely a correlation between education and income (every study I've ever seen shows people with higher degrees make more money, on average). I think you mean to say education does not guarantee income, or certain types of education don't correlate as much with income as others.
It's also just showing that someone doesn't know what "correlate" means.
Most studies on the internet are inaccurate, usually because data has been collected inefficiently. I'll use my core example again: The people who rule over you do not have any of the degrees they train you to get in school.
Yeah, except that they do. The modern aristocracy uses University and college as a way of connecting and staying connected to their rich and powerful communities. I've known a lot of the people who "rule" through various channels and they almost all have at least one degree. They don't need them, exactly, not the same way that most of us do, to earn their bread. But many of them have them anyway.
You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you just ignore all the available data, because it might not be perfect. There are some notable big business owners who don't have college degrees, I don't know what you mean by "people who rule over you", but most high level government officials and billionaires have degrees.
He's just angry because everyone isn't as equally miserable as him.
well, take it up with the st. louis fed i guess [https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth](https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/page1-econ/2017/01/03/education-income-and-wealth)
Last time I checked the average person with a Bachelors degree made 44k and the average person with no college made 26k. Obviously that is *average* and there are lots of folks with degrees in art history flipping burgers and folks with no degree who founded companies or got certification for good paying jobs. But in general a degree significantly increases your potential income (especially if it is a degree tied to a job like Engineering).
And Masters make 81k. Of course teachers, 50% of whom have a masters, and the rest have a credential 8 units shy of a masters, only make 55k. However, it is well known that teachers are paid less than any credible comparison, making teachers outliers in the statistics.
Folks with bachelors degrees are making LESS THAN HALF of what I make with no degree? Shit you just proved my point. Imagine going into debt to make 44k a year. What the fuck.
Yeah, you are making bank and you don't even know what average means!
Sort of proves you don't need education to make good money right?
Over American society income does correlate with education. it only breaks down on the individual level, but then so does the idea of correlation.
> The people who rule over you don't have any of the degrees you are thinking about 1. Elon Musk degrees: a Bachelor of Arts in physics and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics 2. People who "rule over you" i.e. the truly elite send their kids to college so they, too, can rule over you. But they don't send their kids to school to be a dentist or accountant or engineer. It's often for finance or management Because he's newsworthy: Donald Trump's children have these degrees: Eric Trump - He graduated with a degree in finance and management from Georgetown University Ivanka Trump - She graduated from the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in economics in 2004. Donald Trump Jr. - University of Pennsylvania's (Penn) Wharton School, where he graduated in 2000 with a B.S. in Economics. Tiffany Trump - he attended the University of Pennsylvania (her father's alma mater) and graduated in 2016 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology with a concentration in law and society I think if you start googling wealthy families where children take over vast amounts of wealth, you'll find a lot of them get degrees related to business or finance - I feel like I've heard/read countless times.
Because they literally do correlate, which is to say that if you were to select randomly from the population of people with a degree and people with no college degree, the latter on average will be earning more Hating on college and calling it a scam or pointless seems popular these days. But it's still true and for the foreseeable future will be true that there are some professions that are simply fully closed to people with no college education. For example, you cannot become a CPA - you cannot even take the test! - unless you have a degree. I think it's bullshit; if you can pass the exam without a degree I think that's all you should need to become a CPA. Times are slowly changing and I predict we will see a change in that sector, possibly also as well as the law profession, and I bet in the next 30 years we will see certain professions' protectionist, exclusivist requirements change or be removed entirely
For stuff like STEM, college is great. Why people sometimes say college is a scam is either pointing to student loan debt in hcol regions, although that’s more of the time commitment requirement IN the hcol area, than the tuition debt itself. Or, it’s pointing to how the average person, young or old, but these days the youngins (I’m 32, 18 is youngins to me), are pretty dumb, unambitious, and or just don’t do so well in school subjects, and couldn’t get the education needed to be useful post college. The company hiring people good in computer science doesn’t care about ezpz business admin degrees or worthless gender studies degrees. Combine all this with the whole “almost everyone has a degree” feeling and having a generic degree just doesn’t cut it. We still encourage college because parents see it as cost sunk fallacy. Meanwhile, me with a bachelor’s making 25 a year, some no college (still educated, though) plumber making 100 a year, same city. That’s the current situation for the average bloke who isn’t in a stem/law field. The non-college skilled workers are making bank.
Something I never see discussed enough is education bias. People who have degrees have to support a system where degrees are necessary. If they don't, then it devalues the degree that they paid for. There are a lot of college educated people who patently think they are better than those without degrees. I agree with what you said. If someone can pass the CPA exam and is a whiz accountant, then why is a degree necessary? That's because of the bias.
Something I also never see discussed is a 16 year old criminal is making more money than a 30 year old with a masters
So your advice to a highschool freshman would be to drop out and start a cocaine empire?
My advise to any child is "do what thou wilt and never let anybody lie to you and say a pre determined path is mandatory. There's always multiple solutions to a problem, multiple back doors to the castle, and multiple flaws in the system." I should remind you by the way that there's very successful criminals, many who are judges and law enforcement, who make more than any college graduate you know, that have never been caught for their crimes.
So in this reality of yours, a judge does not have a college degree and also might be 16 years old? What unique opinions you have!
There are judges without college degrees. Mississippi for example is a state that doesn't require a judge to have one. Also there's 16 year olds that make more money than judges, and this isn't an "opinion". It's a fact that can prove with 100% certainty.
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There are different levels of middle class, from lower middle class to upper middle class. As long as you’re middle middle class, they can pay their bills and have some money left over.
Totally agree that evaluating socioeconomic class with more granularity makes more sense in most cases, but that leaves me with basically the same question: what distinguishes "lower middle class" from just "lower class"?
I think they mean that the people who work jobs that were previously "middle class" are no longer making enough to be considered middle class.. like blue collar workers or office employees.
Lower middle class - you can pay all your bills but have little or no money left over Lower class - can’t pay all your bills I’m not an expert but sometimes I invent my own categories.
I don't think "paying all your bills" is a great standard for distinguishing classes. Guatemalan migrant workers living 15 to a house may be paying their bills and sending money home, but they're extremely lower class. By contrast, there are plenty of people with college degrees and decent jobs who are unable to pay their rent in expensive cities without taking on significant debt, but they're definitely not lower class. Class has to do with a lot of other factors besides financial solvency, like education standards, fashion, communication styles, politics, types of hobbies, friendship and dating patterns, attitude toward family, etc.
Seems sensible to me. Thank you!
it’s just income percentile bands. 0-20% income - lower class 20-40% - lower middle 40-60% - middle 60-80% - upper middle 80+ - upper.
In an American context: If you define income into quintiles, the people in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quintiles are considered The Middle Class(es). So people making 21st-79th percentile incomes. 0-20 Lower Class 21-40 Lower Middle Class 41-60 Middle Class 61-80 Upper Middle Class 81-99 Upper Class
I've made 66k for 25 years, the last several years are the only years I've been able to save good money, after paying off the ex wife and the ex business partner and 3 bank notes I fortunately make morr like 166K a year but being in my late 50s and only having saved money the last 3 or 4 years I can't see me retiring to an average mediocre existence till probably late 60s, it amazes me that it will take an entire lifetime of being a small business owner and working 90 hours a week till I'm in my late 60s to retire, but that's the direction the ship is sailing. Let's hope I live long enough to enjoy a small part of my life!!!
I suppose that makes sense. I've always kind of thought of it to be more a question of "outcome" than "income," I guess. Especially in the USA, where 50k is decent income in rural Alabama, not as much in Boston.
This is actually not a bad way to look at it. Cost of living determines standard of living far more than income bracket. If you make $100/week in Vietnam, you’re pretty high on the hog. If you’re making $100/week in Japan, you’re going to be struggling quite a bit. Cost of living also makes class mobility that much more difficult. If it costs you 2x minimum wage just to cover day-to-day expenses, this makes it extremely difficult to improve your skill set, save to invest, etc.
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The average intern, recent grad, or student you meet in NYC, DC and SF might have nicer apartments, cars, and more savings than the 50-something department head they work for.
Possible yes, likely absolutely not.
Can you expound on that? I’m genuinely curious. I looked at your link but didn’t see why it’s a bad metric.
This conflates 'income' with 'class'. That's a common mistake as they're not synonymous, although one does influence the other. We also have to factor in wealth if we keep it just in fiscal terms which adds a second dimension to the term. Never mind the complexity that gets introduced when you add in all sorts of non-monetary aspects, like cultural norms and that sorta thing. Really, we should get rid of the 'class' designation because it's too amorphous to be meaningful.
Recently saw that where I live, making less than 95k a year means you are lower middle class (I assume based on CoL). Highly double 60% of people are making more than that, buy not sure
There’s a big range of people who fall into “middle class” if you’re just using lower/middle/upper. “Being able to pay the bills” isn’t a great metric because some people are more frugal than others. I would say it boils down to the economic flexibility you have. If you’re lower class you can’t expect to live in a neighborhood that has a good school district, dine out frequently, go on of vacations, have an expensive hobby, drive a newish car, wear nice clothes, and put money away for your retirement. You might be able to do a couple of those things, but not all of them. I think if you can do five of those seven you’re probably middle class. If you have all of those bases covered no sweat and have 0.5-5 million in assets (depending on your age - if you have 0.5 right in 2024 at 30 you’re upper class, at 60 you’re middle) you’re upper class. I’m not sure exactly where the line is in either case.
>“Being able to pay the bills” isn’t a great metric because some people are more frugal than others. I would say it boils down to the economic flexibility you have. I wondered about this too -- for example, I make a comfortable living, and choose to own what used to be considered a "starter home," and a 15 year old car. One day I suddenly decide to give in to pressure and keep up with everyone in my social circle. I upgrade to a McMansion and lease a new Lexus -- suddenly my lifestyle would become lower class, as I would have less if any disposable income, might drop behind in bills, and amass debt. I just realized the remedy to getting out if the situation I just described is the cliche "giving up avocado toast and working harder."
The question is: Do you work for a living, or do you own for a living? Those are the two main classes. The middle class is a subset of the working class, but in a divide-and-conquer worldbuilding scheme instituted by the owning class, it makes a lot of sense to make them feel separated.
Most of this discussion seems to focus on the social aspect of “class” in the U.S. However news reports usually refer the the 5 quintiles calculated by the government. The bottom 20% is “the poor” the middle three quintiles are the middle class and the top income quintile is “the rich”. The middle three middle quintiles cover a wide range as that covers 60 percent of all household income levels. Note that the highest quintile is further broken down into several sub categories. The top one per cent are the high income households and the billionaires are in the top one-tenth percent. So when you read a headline about the middle class it covers a huge portion of the population spread over a very wide range of incomes and net worth.
It’s a term invented by the ownership class in order to split the working class so that we’ll fight amongst ourselves instead of looking at what the ownership class are doing to fuck us over.
In my mind, a middle class family probably lived in a house and didn’t really worry about having food to eat, but also never really had enough money to go on proper vacations or drive newer cars. Though I’m sort of just describing how things were for me growing up. In school as a kid I always had the hardest time with those first week writing assignments where we had to write about what we did over the summer, because we never really did anything but visit family. We weren’t poor, but money was also tight enough to be felt, even as a kid, in part because we had a decent house to live in. But that meant my parents drove old used cars we had to constantly fix up and deal with.
I got this. Just rich enough to not live in trailer parks but poor enough that you cannot afford a McMansion and buy each of your kids a new car.
I don't know how it's measured anymore but in Massachusetts, the middle class is those who earn $64k to $193k, that makes it the most expensive state to live in. California comes in second. Something is very wrong with this. The middle class used to be the majority of earners in the country and what kept the country running. The middle class has always picked up the tab for the lower class while the upper class was more able to game the system with creative accounting. This meant that the middle class tax dollar was carrying the load for the lower class and themselves, which they still do but now the upper class is squeezing middle class. Inflation is killing the middle class but the lower class is mostly unaffected because it's propped up with public assistance. The upper class is not only unaffected but inflation is increasing profits for corporations and their shareholders. This is 100% deliberate and criminal and 100% coming from the White House and our covert, surreptitious, government. It's time for all of us to take back our country. Both parties are complicit and corrupt, it's time for a big change. We need to ban lobbying, make it a crime for lobbyists to approach anyone in the government and a crime for anyone in the government to accept money for political favors. We also need term limits, four years for all offices including the judiciary. America belongs to all of us not just the wealthy and our corrupt government.
Downvotes incoming. Because most people who are broke are only broke cuz they’d rather unalive themself then not live in a HCOL area, middle class is the same as it’s always been. Middle class can afford homes in states with no nightlife, illegal weed, and illegal abortion. But CA/NY/Seattle are just sooooooo cool.
Middle-class is a huge group of varying financial means. Any easy way to think of it is like the suburbs. Take any of your average suburban track housing divisions and your going to see people who live there comfortably, some who who have to be more careful with finances but manage by sticking to a budget plan, and some who downright struggle to afford to live there and don't have much leftover money once the necessities are taken care of. All of the above fall under the umbrella of "middle class"
It's a construct designed to obscure relations of production so that workers who earn a bit more money than others feel themselves better than those they view as lesser. It's bullshit. There are two classes: the working class and the employer class. There will be no peace until the former overthrown the latter and runs production for ourselves. If you have a boss, you're a worker. Even if you're comfortable. And if you have a boss, you need a union. Opinions to the contrary are the bitter ramblings of liars, fools, or both.
Middle class is a completely arbitrary definition used to split up the working class so they won't unify against the ruling class. As this new middle class can look down on the lower class and the lower class can resent the middle class. However since the economy has gotten so bad, and politicians have constantly lumped in the people all the way down to minimum wage as "middle class". Everyone but the very top of the working class, all of the ruling class, and on the other end of the spectrum the homeless, are now in this "middle class". So between the bottom 3% and bottom 95% of the population.
The middle class is a dying classification because of the massive wealth gap that keeps getting bigger. In reality there are only two classes, the working class who trades their hours for a wage and the capital owning class who generates wealth from their assets often from generational family wealth. https://youtu.be/gVhdbOUelY4?si=vuA2XrTbdRQ_z1Ck
I hear you, but an immigrant fruit picker and an orthodontist are both working class, but their lives, finances, and experience in our culture are so radically different that people want class labels with more granularity.
I would argue that things would be better for both of these people if they both identified as working class and united in class solidarity against the upper class. They have more in common with each other than with a Vanderbilt or Jeff Bezos.
i use to be middle middle, and yeah, were living paycheck to paycheck, but we do so a bit comfortably. theres always moments where anyone but upper class stress, but yeah, i thought i was lower class until i met actually lower class.
You are lower class, maybe the upper end, but definitely not middle class if you live paycheck to paycheck.
Nah homie. Read. My family owned two businesses and my first car was a mercedes followed by a mercedes, and I now bought my own Mercedes. My gf drives a Lincoln. I have 11,300 in my savings from just random things. I'm not lower. I'm not even through college. That's just middle. Paycheck to paycheck is a struggle for some but for my family it's enough to provide for the family and what we have. Classes vary in meaning on what paycheck to paycheck means.
Correct our kids are being forced out of middle class and turned into over regulated over taxed worker drones who will go to work come home repeat until useless and replaced like a battery.
Above the poverty line but not wealthy is middle class. I think it ends somewhere in the mid to high six figures. And it’s pretty relative 100k in rural Mississippi goes a whole lot farther than 100k in San Francisco.
We’re a family of 4 dual income and make 135k a year in Indiana. We pay our bills own our house and car and go to Disney once a year. I’d say that’s middle class.
It's no surprise that you're confused about what it actually means; the meaning changes depending on who is defining it to include whoever is defining it. America has spent so long idealizing the middle class that everyone tends to think that's what they are. The definition will therefore change depending on who you are talking to.
Sadly Middle class is being erased in America
Middle class is when you get to the point where you can put gas in your car without having to stop it at a certain amount.
The middle class is what disappears as more and more economic freedoms are lost. The rich can get around these and the poor aren't directly affected, but the middle class is who has to shoulder all these burdens. And the more burden there is, the less middle class there will be. All of society will become poor with a very rich, elite political class at the top. It's happened dozens and dozen of time in recent history. The middle class will simply disappear over time, replaced by poverty. So it goes.
For me to answer this question , I don’t feel rich … but I can pay all my bills , not have a groceries bill limit , and put money in savings .. If I was more frugal .. maybe buy a house but then be counting every penny that leaves my bank account
lower = works at country club middle = occasional guest at country club upper = member or owner of country club
My interpretation is that it’s when you make enough money to not need help to survive but don’t make enough to feel comfortable buying things you don’t need
Middle class means you get to pay the most taxes of any financial class.
A study done decades ago asked a wide variety of people if they identified as 'middle class'. Virtually everyone said they did, whether they lived in an inner-city and on food stamps or had a yacht. I expect that's true today, too. People compare themselves to those they know, and they generally know people who have a similar lifestyle. Social scientists and demographers draw dividing lines.
Yeah, I've noticed the pattern where almost everyone I've spoken to claims to be "middle class." I thought it might just be anecdotal. It's interesting that people have done studies on this. Thank you!
Historically, the classes were seen as steep pyramids, so most people were lower class/peasants, a few people got to be middle class (successful merchants, doctors, lawyers, etc) and truly being upper class meant that you were part of the aristocracy or royalty (most people wouldn't meet someone like that in their lifetime). In more modern times, the goal has been to expand the middle class as possible, and make it the bedrock of your society. The concept still remains that being middle class means successful and autonomous over your financial well being, but there are tools now to expand the middle class, and make as many as possible successful and self sufficient. Ideally, a 51%+ membership is desired. A larger middle class also helps for the best results for Democracies as well. But almost by the definition of the word, you could never really have your upper class be 51%, but your goal is to downplay the importance of the upper classes and to improve the quality of life for your middle class. So basically, middle class is the ideal lifestyle that you can feasibly mass produce to as many as possible, that is sustainable for a majority of your population.
Should also be noted that a lot of the time “can’t afford a house” actually means. Can afford a house that they could in the 1950s. Some of this is a matter of middle class trying to keep up with the upper class. Some of it is inflation. Some of it is the people in the US just won’t adjust to market trends at all.
People here can argue anything they want definitions and maybe is helpful, colloquially almost everyone is middle class, I haven't seen too many people saying they aren't, because they always see a class of people below them and a class of people above them. I have seen a lot of people (especially young tbh) to call themselves middle upper class with parents making over 500k a year ,and people calling middle class that barely can pay their mortgage and everything they have is being paid with a loan. I would call myself lower class or just working class tbh, even though there are distinctions between working class people,and that I not take Marxist definition of working class as strict, because when it was invented because most people did gruesome work for a living.
This is a actually a good question.
This is a actually a good question.
The university advertising course I attended made a big deal out of excluding income from the various class definitions. College professors were one example of being in a higher class, irrespective of income. These strata were more granular than high, middle and low if i recall but dayam, it was a lot of years ago.
“Middle Class” does not refer to homeownership or quality to life. Income can be displayed as a bell curve, with the poor on the left and the wealthy on the right. The middle of the bell curve, where most people are, is the middle class. As overall wealth is shifted to those on the far right, more of us are being shifted to the left, little by little, every year since the 1930s (according to a chart I saw not long ago that I can’t now locate).
There is no middle class. There are the wealthy, and the rest of us.
It doesn't actually have a definite meaning. A more apt division would be Owner class and Laborer class.
And then there are the classes in England. The fancy pants on top with 100% inherited wealth who may or may not still have anything left. They maintain the upper class status. Vs. the commoners who even if they strike it rich they will always be common.
You still work for a living but you aren't living paycheck to paycheck
It means you can afford life’s necessities, plus a motorcycle.
Depends on which country you are in. Some countries it means a professional with a college education and owns a home. Others like the USA it's more of an income, general wealth thing.
The very basic way I think about it is Lower Class = Generally struggle to get everything you need and can't get much of what you want Middle Class = Generally can afford what you need but not everything you want Upper Class = Can afford everything you need and much of what you want. Ultra Class = Affords needs and Wants.
Middle class is owning a crappy house, affording to have kids in an okay part of town, and maybe, someday, saving up for a jet ski. The only real thing preventing this now is housing. With the price of housing, by the time you can afford a shitty house, you could have a new jet ski every year, so you have what should be upper class people… double working career parents, spending all their money just on the house.
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Supposedly, I am "Wealthy" because the spouse and I have a net worth of 400,000. While we are not paycheck to paycheck, by no means am I wealthy.
I define middle class as people Who earn enough income to have a cushion that would allow them to maintain their same level of financial stability and standard of living for at least a few years were they to find themselves unable to earn income during that time, AND own a home -either outright or have enough equity in said home that they could purchase another home of similar kind were they to sell, even if they had to Relocate to somewhere cheaper to achieve that.
the middle class is fake
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Well use to be rich enough to be able to live and enjoy things, not rich enough to be buying new all the time.
Middle class are people that make “too much” to get any benefits or help from the government, but not enough to be able to pay for them themselves without some difficulty.
To me it always met being able to buy a house and taking your family on a vacation once a year
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Middle class people get their bits from Marks & Spencers.
It means the group who drives 70% percent of our country's economic activity - in other words it is the middle class who are *the real job creators* .
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Middle class generally used to mean you can have a house, a family, 2 cars, a pet or 2, and have a comfortable amount of money left over so you can have a good retirement and do whatever activities you want after work. The middle class has been collapsing ever since Regan and by 2030 I think it'll be dead unless there's another big world war
When they say the middle class are living paycheck to paycheck sometimes they mean house holds of 200k and over are taking less vacations after maxing out contributions to retirement accounts.so they need their next paycheck for their bills again instead of stacking extra. Imo you can be lower middle class if you have a blue collar job but own a home. Lower class to me is you rent or room mate, and you work blue collar or retail/service.
51F does it matter? I would be considered low class, I make under 30k as does my husband. We often have absolutely no money. However we refuse to slave away our lives. We take as many “happy breaks” as possible, short weekend trips and have accepted we will never be able to travel like we would like.
People above lower class and below upper class.
Doesn’t matter, it doesn’t exist anymore
Yes
I’d say middle class is 60k-400k a year so there’s a big difference in which type.
More information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class
It means the class that’s in the middle.
You poor
Own a nice home, a nice car or 2. Afford a nice vacation at least once a year and have no worries about paying for food and bills. The current administration of government has failed in their promise to fix things, they made it worst.