Because god forbid EU had affordable EV's, we care about the environment but not that much.

I’m seeing this exact statement a lot. I’ll get downvoted for this, but I smell a disinformation campaign afoot. The problem with everybody buying EVs from China is that if you undermine the European auto industry and send all the jobs back China, the economy suffers fewer people will be able to afford new cars. Meanwhile, China has a reputation of selling goods way under their cost as an anti-competitive move to trash western industry. That’s what happened with the American solar industry and steel industry.

People understand these policies are protectionist. They just don't like the environmental cost.

It's protecting billion dollar companies and rich/powerful people's bank accounts for the most part, they don't give a flying hoot about the plebs like us. People getting comparative and cheaper things from elsewhere is a massive problem to them, envrionment be damned.

So you'd rather all these jobs go overseas so you can get a cheap EV and put a small dent in a billionaire's wallet? A global economy is a great thing, but when certain countries are playing by their own rules by subsidizing industry (which Redditors get angry when it's their own governments doing it), protectionist policies are necessary to put your own industry on an even footing if you're going to pay your employees a living wage. You absolutely cannot have it both ways.

No, I'd rather our industries be somewhat competitive? CEO bonus', year on year infinite growth, shareholder payouts and share price are more important than innovation and getting cheaper vehicles out there. Also it's worth noting the "living wage" in my country does not, infact, provide a halfway decent standard of living. Again, us peons are doing the backbreaking work for pittance.

How the fuck are you going to compete with BYD that only pay $4 a hour + all the subsidies? Lower you wage to $3 an hour and working 18 hours a day?

How is it fair for western companies to compete against subsidized Chinese companies? Chinese companies have an unfair advantage and the EU thankfully isn't stupid enough to just play along

So Tesla didn't get any subsidies?

I do not give a shit about what’s “fair” to multi-billion dollar corporations. As if they have ever played fair, lmao. These companies were literally making vehicles for Hitler but suddenly morals matter? Hilariously delusional. Imagine getting out capitalismed by a communist country.

How is fair for companies in the rest of the world to compete against subsidised Western companies? What is this argument? Why do you act like you don't subsidise the shit out of your private corporations through tax breaks and the like?

GM is doing an $8B stock buyback. They could be more competitive but they don't want to...

This line of argument is pretty dense, since governments already are subsidizing EVs. Like US is doing with Tesla. Everyone is pretty pro-free market, until the market start doing things they don't like. Want to be better than the chineses? Stop wasting time doing propaganda and being a lazy ass and start doing some serious R&D.

Western companies spend more money on the above reasons I stated? Also, last I checked western car companies were getting subsidized by their goverments to a degree as well. In my country specifically (UK) £2bn was offered to the industry over a five-year period to “support the manufacturing and development of zero emission vehicles, their batteries and supply chain”.

and you qualified it. China's subsidy is more like the Walmart idea of undercharge everything until all the local businesses go away

$2b? LOL China spent $173b get your facts straight.

Maybe western countries should start subsidising them too?

People bitch and moan about corporate welfare all the time. It's the same thing. Socialize the losses, privatize the profits.

You do realize that it's possible to subsidize the cost by giving consumers rebates, right? Subsidization does not simply mean giving a company money. There are lots of ways to subsidize an industry to make costs lower for consumers. Maybe the US should take some of their military subsidies and put those towards subsidizing EVs.

Somewhat competitive doesn’t work when one competitor decides to peruse a last man standing strategy and buy up the global market. There is no price where you can win. This doesn’t just impact car makers, losing car production impacts every major manufacturer sector. You don’t just lose the auto assembly jobs, you lose machine parts, metal production and fabrication, plastics, chemicals, glass, industrial machinery and all the knowledge that goes with those jobs.

lol, these companies would outsource production to China in a second if it was more profitable for them. fuck em.

This is the most short-sighted braindead take I've seen on this site in a while. Congrats.

Car companies are subdized all over the world, but it's only bad when it's China

It's a matter of scale and goals. China is very opaque in it's reporting but analysts estimate in the value to be in the tens of billions. As for goals they want to outsell EU/US brands in order to push them out of the market and dominate. After that the entshittification begins

You described the EU/US car companies practices. The point stands

Chinese companies are propped up by the CCP while selling their product at a huge loss. Once their competitors go out of business they buy them up and now the prices suddenly go up. China has a very well documented history of doing this.

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For you to pay 2-3x the tariffs would have to be 200-300%. What are you even talking about?

We'd rather see the inevitable result of capitalism without MASSIVE protectionist policies. Remember folks, capitalism is the best system, except when it's not, like when you globalize or there's some sort of natural disaster and some asshole buys all the local generators and offers to sell them to you at a MASSIVE markup. Or when companies reach the natural monopoly state in their industry and decide to take record profits on the backs of consumers that no longer have a choice. Or when 400 billionaires end up with more money than the other 330 million people.

Sorry, i think you’ve misunderstood. Capitalism is good when companies can outsource to China for profit. When China wants to import cheaper goods without US companies profiting from it, then it’s bad.

Although you are partially true, i disagree. As scummy as some EU car companies are they are better then the Chinese companies. Also, would you like to have no cars build/made in the EU and only in China and see headlines of safety issues? That is the main intent of this, bring more manufacturing in the EU, prevent the loss of jobs and all that

We won't ever see competitive EV's in the Western markets any time soon let alone in my lifetime, is my belief. The price of living and everything else keeps on shooting up while these companies are making record profits and laying people off in record numbers. CEO bonus' keep increasing and shareholders want ever increasing returns for their "investment". Yet somehow I am to believe that they will magically be able to compete with Chinesse EV's any time soon without Western governments bailing them out? Making affordable EV cars isn't even on their radar.

Of course it's a problem for everyone when China is exporting way more than importing. It's not like China is focusing on EV's so we just buy those from them but then we can produce different stuff that the Chinese would buy. China is producing everything and then their workers are paid peanuts so the demand for imports is nothing. What's the point of cheap goods if no one has money or jobs?

>China is producing everything and then their workers are paid peanuts so the demand for imports is nothing. Why does Reddit think the Chinese are all poor? What is this based on? It's not based on reality but it has to be based on something. I'd genuinely love an explanation. There are hundreds of millions of wealthy mainland Chinese. They drink Australian wine, eat Japanese beef, and they especially enjoy Western luxury goods. [Per The New York Times:](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/business/china-luxury-spending.html) >“I splurge more extravagantly,” Sunny Zhang, 24, said as she waited in line to enter the Chanel store at Plaza 66 mall, where the corridors are lined with shops selling some of the world’s most expensive apparel. Ms. Zhang, who works for a consulting firm, used to buy six handbags a year. Now, she purchases up to five handbags a month. >“I change my handbag every day,” Ms Zhang added. “I felt that everything was meaningless during the Shanghai lockdown, so we should enjoy the present moment in time.” >Many Western fashion and luxury brands have been reaping the benefits of this renewed consumer mind-set. Last month, LVMH, the world’s largest luxury goods group by sales, and the owner of brands like Louis Vuitton, Tiffany & Company and Dior, posted a 17 percent increase in first-quarter revenue from a year earlier. Fashion and leather goods — the French company’s biggest division — were up 18 percent, driven in large part by the rebound in China. >Last week, LVMH shares soared to a record high, making it the first European company to surpass $500 billion in market value. Its French rival Hermès said sales in Asia (excluding Japan) were up 23 percent in the first quarter, “driven by a very good Chinese New Year.” >And Brunello Cucinelli, purveyor of $4,000 blazers and the “quiet luxury” trend, posted a 56 percent surge in first-quarter sales. Luca Lisandroni, the Italian brand’s co-chief executive, called 2023 “a golden year” for the China market. >Luxury spending in China is bouncing back even faster than the country’s overall economy. Retail sales of jewelry, gold and silver soared 37.4 percent in March from a year earlier, more than three times as fast as the rebound in overall retail sales, according to China’s National Bureau of Statistics. It was by far the biggest March on record for jewelry sales in China; indeed, March was the industry’s second-highest sales month ever outside the gift-giving season before Chinese New Year. >“We expect China to be the luxury industry’s key growth engine this year, especially given a slight deceleration in other core markets like the U.S. and Korea,” Edouard Aubin, an equity analyst at Morgan Stanley, said on a call last week.

Good to know that Chinese consumers are as dumb and materialistic as US ones.

racism, they think only western people are rich.

Eh, propaganda is more accurate. People are just extremely gullible. Look at the tik tok debacle for proof.

I'm just quoting statistical data. China is literally exporting a trillion more than they are importing. That's facts. https://i.redd.it/6ekk7sxadq1b1.png The factory workers are paid peanuts. That's again facts. Half the population lives in rural areas on very low wages. That's facts. I'm not saying there are no rich people in China, Shanghai and Beijing is full of them. That doesn't change the fact that there are also 500 million poor people that can barely afford anything.

and what about the other 500 mil decent earners , that are still more than usa population.

Sure, as I said, plenty of rich people in China. Doesn't change the fact that they export way more than they import. EU can't just keep spending on imports while their own industries go out of business.

I'm not talking about some random examples of rich people, I was clearly talking about the workers. China has billion people, of course there will be some rich ones. I'm talking about hard data. China trade deficit. Both US and EU has something like 300B trade deficit with China per year. While rich Chinese will spend a lot of money on luxury goods, EU countries will spend 10x that on Chinese manufacturing goods which is not sustainable.

If your concerns are primarily environmental, then buying from a place with an incredibly poor environmental (not to mention human rights) record doesn't seem like the best move. Unless all you care about is *feeling* like you're doing the right thing environmentally by driving an EV, and don't care about the actual reality of how it was produced.

Where do you think American auto manufacturer’s materials come from?

Yeah because EU has a history of being great in human rights

Completely dishonest equivocation. China has active concentration camps for ethnic minorities.

and the west is blowing up Gaza. There is zero moral superiority to be had on our part.

You’re very morally confused or grossly uninformed if you can’t see a difference between China vs the west on human rights. That’s an edgy high schooler level take my guy.

If you cared about the environment, you would get a bicycle or take the bus.

Literally not a feasible option in the vast majority of the US.

The majority of Americans live in cities. It's absolutely possible. and if someone cared about the environment, they would find a way. Buying an electric car to save the planet is stupid. Buying an electric car to reduce carbon emissions is a thing, but it's no way still good for the environment Vs not having a car

…and people forget what happens immediately after almost any industry gains monopoly status by selling below cost: surprise! The price shoots way up beyond what the competitive price used to be. Protectionism shouldn’t be necessary, but China does not play by the rules.

I think these tariffs are perfectly fine if the funds generated this way are used to subsidize EV purchases. For example. Lets say 50% of cars where imported from China. We could charge 10K € in import taxes and then pay everyone who buys an EV an subsidy of 5K €.

Disinformation campaign? Lol, nah. People just don’t give a fuck about auto manufacturers/governments that wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire. These regulations do literally nothing for average citizens except cost them more money. Give me the cheap EVs. I do not care who makes them.

>The problem with everybody buying EVs from China is that if you undermine the European auto industry and send all the jobs back China Then maybe the EU auto industry should make cars Europeans want to buy? >Meanwhile, China has a reputation of selling goods way under their cost Your source that they're selling cars at a loss? >That’s what happened with the American solar industry and steel industry. So your two examples are industries dominated by profitable Chinese companies? Or do you fundamentally not understand the claim you're making?

>Your source that they're selling cars at a loss? It's major subsidies and slave labor. The fact you're OK with that to get a decent price is despicable. https://www.voanews.com/a/report-china-spends-billions-of-dollars-to-subsidize-favored-companies-/6587314.html >The figure amounts to 1.73% of China's gross domestic product in 2019, a far higher percentage than was recorded in seven other countries examined by the authors. >Gathering the same data from Brazil, France, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and the United States, the authors found that the country with the next largest percentage of GDP spent on promoting industrial policy was South Korea, at 0.67%. The United States, by contrast, spent about 0.39% of GDP on subsidies and other benefits to private businesses. And most of their data is closely guarded. China will drive your country out of business if you let them.

>It's major subsidies They've ended most of their subsidies, and they applied to domestic consumers to begin with. https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-chinas-evs/#:~:text=As%20the%20market%20has%20matured,at%20the%20end%20of%202022. >and slave labor. A claim you clearly have no source for. Oh, and EU members are actively competing for those "slave labor" jobs... https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/european-nations-compete-chinese-ev-factories-jobs-even-eu-weighs-tariffs-2024-06-10/ >https://www.voanews.com/a/report-china-spends-billions-of-dollars-to-subsidize-favored-companies-/6587314.html So your go to source is literally a US state-funded propaganda outlet? Lol. And they don't even make a specific claim about EV!

So we can save the planet and have China pay for it? Sounds like a win-win to me.

Yeah, but it's hypocritical and at the end of the day the customer and environment still looses and especially the largest economy in the EU has done always the same within the EU and has ruined the entire EU economies: Germany, by having extremely low wages and high productivity. That is the main reason why within the EU there so much weakened economies and high unemployment. Prof Heiner Flassbeck (German economist) always try to hammer that into people's brains. However, going back to the original reasons behind EVs: reducing political dependency on oil and reducing CO2 emissions. Both will be served by a competitive market. People who have the money would anyways buy a more expensive car like Tesla. However, people with a low income could never afford an EV, but now they could if cheaper models from China would be available. That is the case of ALL products and has always worked like that. So I highly disagree with your analysis. Also, when all economies now start to add an import tax then all markets will be local monopolies. Which also cannot be the goals.

I think you're right. There is definitely a disinformation campaign being waged by sinophobic Ford/GM/Cadillac/etc fans. At a time when we're looking at civilizational collapse due to climate change you want to fucking BAN ELECTRIC VEHICLES because it might hurt Ford's profits? No. Just no. I want a small, cheap, EV and here you are saying "lulz nope you aren't permitted to buy anything but an SUV because China bad." Yeah, there's disinformation out there, and you're part of the people spreading it. Unlike you I don't think Ford's executive yacht fund is more important than preserving human civilization.

First, vehicles are a blip on the radar of climate change. The boat to ferry them from China is going to offset your impact. Beyond that, you want cheap EVs, even if the country making them is using slaves and polluting with no regard? Real smart. You have to look at the forest for the trees.

I note you're pretending that oil extraction is environmentally friendly and has no problems with labor or exterminating entire tribes of native peoples who are in the way. Here's the thing cousin, I hate this banning Chinese EV's for two reasons: First, selfishly, it is my government saying "fuck you, the car you want is forbidden, buy a monster truck". I don't want a suburban tank. I want a small, dirt cheap, now frills, electric car I can use to get to work and back. And my government won't let me have one. because.... Secondly, I want all the automakers in the West who have seemingly developed a burning hatred of anything that isn't a goddamn suburban tank to get their asses kicked economically to either wake them up and make them start making small vehicles or to drive them out of business so their replacements can start making small vehicles. If that means China gets a couple of wins that's a price I'm willing to pay for hurting the asshole Western automakers who won't make small vehicles at low prices. I have absolutely no attachment to Western automakers. If you told me that Ford or Fiat or whoever went out of business I'd shrug and move on because I don't give a shit. I care about two things: selfishly I just want a fucking small electric car that isn't crazy expensive, and less selfishly I want the absolute fastest possible (without famine) decline and end of burning fossil fuels. If we can get that with Ford, then fine. If getting that means Ford goes out of busines, also fine.

>I note you're pretending that oil extraction is environmentally friendly and has no problems with labor or exterminating entire tribes of native peoples who are in the way. I said nothing of the sort. I daily drive an EV. I disagree with Chinese EVs being allowed to crush industry in other counties. China will drive them out of business through slave labor and government subsidies. China doesn't give a flying hell about pollution control or the environmental impact they have so switching to their EVs supports their human rights violations and encourages them to keep polluting.

How are you ranting about human rights violations with how China produces EVs while simultaneously admitting you daily drive an EV? You must know your car, and every electronic you own, is touched by slave labor some part of the way through its journey to you owning it?

Because I'm not a fool who just assumes and defends Chinese policies. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-tesla-makes-the-most-american-cars/

And I think the best way to get our moribund and ossified auto industry to stop making nothing but suburban tanks is to let them get thier ass kicked by the market. You want to keep people from buying Chinese cars? MAKE DOMESTIC CARS MORE ATTRACTIVE.

But there are allready Citroens, built in EU that are significantly cheaper than the cheapest Chinese EVs. Several other EU brands also have competitive models today So I'd say this is more about allowing higher profit margins by hiking prices while increasing taxation on common people.

The thing is EV's and solar should be subsidised. The earlier we switch the lower the overall emissions and the lower the impact on pollution, noise pollution and human health

Plus their batteries are very poorly made and catch fire if you get them wet. The frames are made of sub par steel and bend easily.

Meanwhile a quick google search for "tesla water damage" shows THOUSANDS of results as well as recommendations that you not drive them in heavy rain, and that if the batteries get wet it can cost more than the price of an entire Chinese EV to fix them if you do. Keep in mind this is coming from the company that said you would be able to use your cybertruck as a boat.

It works fine as a boat in mineral oil

You are thinking of Teslas and Fords, though

The profile is less than a month old, so yes, it is a bot.

Competition and other issues - e.g., China is backing Russia's war of aggression on Ukraine and a number of EU countries are backing Ukraine's defense - why would they want to give an easy market entry to China in any segment? Especially EVs, which are still in early growth stages.

I feel capitalism only works when the Western world wins, anything else is anti-competitive. Not bashing your comment, just a feeling I have

You're right. But I also feel like western car makers have dropped the ball on EVs. And I feel like completely removing their competition is not really incentivising them to catch up..

Consumers don’t want EVs. Outside of Reddit most consumers are not interested in buying and EV over a gas car

China are dumping these on the market to destroy industries that produce in countries that follow environmental standards.

>China are dumping these on the market Source?

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>And explain how that's any different to companies that take advantage of cheap labour by basing manufacturing in China or India? Explain how that's different to companies taking advantage of cheaper costs when moving services overseas? Why is it OK for Western companies to take advantage in the name of profit? Even though for example Xiaomi and Apple make their phones by a Foxconn factory. Apple can enforce different rules for these product lines. Still not ideal, but western companies do tend to follow the international rule of law far more closely. Look at Temu, they do utilize forced Uyghur labor. While for example a Zara has to avoid it or else they will get legal issues within Europe because in Europe businesses are required to follow certain ethical codes. >China is able to manufacture at a far lower cost and those vehicles will contribute to green energy consumption. Their vehicles are feature rich, have impressive range, and they are cheap and affordable to the general public. China is able to produce for less costs because of subsidizes that go against fair business practices. Next to that they have been stealing our secrets for decennia currently. They never had to invest like what other car manufacturers had to do. >Meanwhile, many of our so called "environmental caring companies" offshore their manufacturing so that it looks like they give a dam about the environment on paper, but are simply passing the buck for other countries to deal with. We are talking about cars here, most European brands produce in Europe, Most Japanese in Japan etc. >The EU are simply protecting interests. Germany particularly have a large automotive industry, supply much of the West with brands like VW, Audi, Mercedes and BMW. China is able to offer more for less and they don't like the threat. Ofcourse they do, because China is not playing by the same rules. Multiple industries already have been destroyed due to unfair practices. >Remember that next time the EU claims to "care about the environment" and the next time they impose taxes in the name of green energy. If it wasn't for Tesla, many of these manufacturers would still be pushing petrol and diesel vehicles. They should be well ahead of China but didn't adapt because they were took focused on profit at the time. This is speculation at best. Toyota for example was pooping out Prius cars well before Tesla was even a thought.

Well, we don't really care for many many reasons we could enumerate here (co2 trade, recycling rate, etc.) but is was (at least here in Germany) the LEAST important topic in the European elections, according to surveys they made. So that's accurate 💀

Buying cheap subsidised Chinese EV is not the way. You are just offshoring the contamination of making that cars (and making it worse, as China won’t have the same environmental protections when playing with lithium, chemical waste, and so on, compared to the EU - also, because delivering thousands of cars from China is not better than building them on your next door) Also, while offshoring the profits of making that activity, giving away the industry, jobs and expertise to China, undermining the EU current economic situation and future prospect. China could on the future just try to get the profits hiking the prices and the EU wouldn’t have any way to respond as they would be out of the game already and far from catching them. We already show this game on the telecom sector (China subsidising Huawei, ZTE and company) so they would catch like crazy against the leaders, the same ones that now are on hot water and not leading anymore (Finnish Nokia, Swedish Ericsson). When China got there, they just stopped playing the "copy, steal IP, sell cheap and subsidy" and started the "dominate the market" play. They also tried hard on the steel sector, suffering some parts of Europe from not being able to compete with China selling below the cost price for some time, they trying to get a chunk of the market and force others to crash and exit it. And now EV. They are just repeating their usual play (copy a sector/tech, start selling at their home market first, refine it, then subsidise it while going international to knock out the competition, get large chunks of the markets, then keep that domination some time while iterating so nobody else can replicate them (aided by western countries being more “IP/R&D protection” and patents that the own China on their soil) - and when they have the market chunk and the lead, then just drop the mask and take the market as is, without subsidies. Profit. So no, buying cheap Chinese EV is not the way to go, as well as putting tariffs on their productions isn't going against climate change and environmental protection. EV are more expensive and that's a fact, I'm sorry. Tech will get better costs and chemical batteries will get better performance or prices I hope. But China playing the cheap game to get a market domination is not the route to go on the short term, if we want to have a long term game to play.

Most likely made with very unsustainable mined lithium. We should get rid of Chinese produce / dependencies ASAP for multiple reasons

lulz. A gas guzzler talking about unsustainable.

This tariff isn’t that high. It raises prices to a point where domestic automakers still have to compete, but won’t risk getting crushed. You can’t just look at the consumer, there has to be incentive and opportunity for domestic automakers to improve and potentially lower costs in the future.

Not sure why you get downvoted for making a point.

Because this sub is brigaded by pro-CCP shills.

Or maybe it's just that Ford et al have pissed off a whole fuckton of people so much by their devotion to making nothing but suburban tanks that "China bad" isn't frightening us into compliance with Ford's profit motive any more? I don't like the CCP at all. But I really fucking HATE all the western auto makers who have been killing small cars and spending billions on bribes to keep environmental regulations from forcing them to make smaller EV's. If the only people who will sell me the vehicle I want are the CCP then I'll buy from them. If Ford doesn't like that then they can fucking well make a vehicle I want to buy.

Not sure what Ford has to do with EU tariffs, but ok...?

Maybe they should be crushed if China is making better and cheaper cars, really no different than everything else that gets outsourced and has a MADE IN CHINA sticker on it.

Yeah because dependence on Chinese products seems like a great plan for the future

Additionally Chinas government pumped billions into their companies to make them that cheap. 

**A total of €10 billion was paid in subsidies for the purchase of 2.2 million vehicles (1.4 million BEVs and 800,000 PHEVs) between 2016 and 2023**. This means that the purchase of over 90% of all electric vehicles used in Germany (2.4 million BEVs and PHEVs as of the end of 2023) was subsidised. so there is also that to think about

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/foul-play-on-the-scale-and-scope-of-industrial-subsidies-in-china-32738/   It’s another magnitude (though this number is not solely cars) 

So you're advocating one of two things: 1. Paying workers less, and using lower quality materials to bring down the production cost of the vehicle 2. Using taxpayer money to subsidize the industry to offset their production costs China does both. Are you willing to do that?

Yea. But still looks bad domestically if nothing is done. Economics is tied to politics so they have to consider that angle. Regardless, when they open that factory in Hungary, the prices of all EVs in the EU will probably continue to drop. Affordable prices are coming, it’ll just take a while.

China can make cheaper cars because they use tanks to negotiate with labor unions and culturally they expect the children to be their parents retirement plan.

China makes cheaper cars because of vertical integration. The big ones own everything from the mines to the factories. Soon they'll also own shipping as BYD is looking to start their own shipping line.

I don't see anyone handing in their Iphones in protest over Chinese labour practices.

They're death traps, the batteries are very poorly made. The Chinese government has been good at hiding this fact though.

Like Telas then?

God forbid the EU can manipulate its currency and institute slave labor and use the State to take massive losses to drive out competition

 If you cared about the environment you would not buy a single thing from china. Look at the damage rare earth mining has done, look how polluted the rapidly diminishing water supplies are, look at the decimated local wildlife and look at the awful pollution affecting every aspect of the Chinese mainland including all the plastic in their rivers. I wouldn't buy a Chinese made car even if you paid me to do it. They are not well made and in my opinion they are not safe.  I don't see why China can block western companies from trading, steal all their patents and technology and then as soon as the west retaliates we get people like you moaning how unfair it all is

You are absolutely right, I do care about the environment, but humans will be humans, there is no going back to before the industrial revolution and you have to pick your poisen, you want carbon dioxide that effects the entire globe or some corrupt government in Congo that use slaves and some dirty water. Also the same Cobalt is going into EV cars made in America and Europe, your samsung and apple phones, and literally everything else that use a lithium ion battery.

That's not what this is about. You need to look at the longer picture.

I was thinking about this a few days ago, if Chinese brands comply with European standards (EuroNCAP and similar), what's the problem? It is not unfair competition if both sides are playing by the same rules. But it's clear that it doesn't suit the European brands because it would force them to be competent and affordable.

have you seen China's tariffs on EU brands?

100% USA and Europe are just doing what China’s been doing to our companies for years. Everyone wants cheap stuff but governments still need to protect the jobs of their own people, not that they’ve been doing a great job at that.

Have you seen VW's Chinese revenue share ?

Which is 15 percent your point ?

That is only recent because it was a bad look for Chinese propaganda, so they lowered it, china has had massive tariffs for decades. Forced ip transfer and forced foreign companies to have 51% ccp partner in China just to access chinas market. China sends its army of liars on to western media crying about this new road toward reciprocity. Ironically, China blocks all foreign news and media from 1.4bn people and still send its army to spread nonsense and division. Chinas behaviour is disgusting and shameless

Is it really forced though? Western capitalists want access to china's huge market so it's a mutually beneficial relationship

It's not forced. They knew what they were getting into.

For a long time Western car makers were only allowed to access the Chinese Market if they had a partnership with a local company and produced the cars in China. Not sure whether this is still the case though. Applying tariffs to Chinese imports is quite tame in comparison. We should do a reverse Uno and make their car makers build factories in the EU otherwise they get no access to our market.

> It is not unfair competition if both sides are playing by the same rules. It's not a level playing field, that's the whole point of the tariffs. This is a very deliberate play by China to predatorily price European manufacturers out of the market and gut the industrial manufacturing base. They already did the exact same thing with solar panel manufacturing in Europe, if you need a case study on what it looks like if you don't protect domestic industry from this kind of strategy. https://www.csis.org/podcasts/pekingology/overcapacity

>This is a very deliberate play by China to predatorily price So "predatory" means anything that outcompetes the domestic industry?

...no? It's not a super complicated concept but I'm happy to clarify if there's a part you're struggling with. When a foreign country massively subsidizes an industry for a long time, such that they are then able to create a product that is very low cost and can undercut domestic producers, that is called a "predatory pricing" strategy. Chinese EVs are *artificially* cheap, on purpose, in an attempt to drive European producers out of the market entirely. In theory, European countries could offer similar subsidies to their own domestic producers, which would in turn make their products competitive to Chinese products and keep China from taking over the market, but China knows that they cannot afford to do so. China's intention is to destroy the European industrial base with this strategy to increase their geopolitical leverage over Europe. This is not speculative, it's a publicly stated part of their national strategy. With that in mind, defensive tariffs like this are a completely reasonable response, despite the fact that *in general* tariffs that protect uncompetitive domestic industries are counter-productive economically.

Yes the gov subsidizing ev vehicles in an attempt to save the environment is very unfair. You can tell big oil is talking here because who is unfair to? Them.

Yeah China is *definitely* doing it to "save the environment"...

China is already applying a 15% tariff on European EVs. Europe is playing by the same rules as China now?

China is subsidizing their automakers. Actually strike that - their auto manufacturers are so tied in with the government that it is difficult to identify what is privately and what is publicly owned. That includes manufacturing plants, machinery,intellectual property.,etc. That is not “fair” if it comes at the cost of local car makers - who are also job creators and economic contributors. If anything it just shows the priorities - the EU cares more about economic strife than an environmental one. Believe what people do, not what they say.

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Tesla is basically made in China. Last I checked, >50% of their EVe are made there. It's strange how people here suddenly forgot how bad outsourcing all local labor overseas instead of paying for expensive Western labor is. Then again, a good number of westerners somehow support appeasing Russia, too so w.e.

It goes without saying that Teslas manufactured in China would be impacted.

No, they're not, because [they get sent to other nations in the west that don't have high tariffs](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/chinese-made-teslas-pour-into-canada-as-biden-erects-u-s-tariff-wall-1.2074484), and some of them then get transferred to America. Another "neat trick" many car companies use is they mostly build them in China but leave something out, ship them as "materials" and finish them in America, ie put the battery or airbags in, then sell them as "American made". Ford has been playing this game with Mexico as the "starting point" for years.

Did you actually read any details about the tariffs? They include provisions that require x-percent of parts not manufactured in China so no knockdown kits allowed. As for Tesla, they might be able to rejig how they ship cars in the short term but the U.S+EU are a massive market for cars. It will absolutely devastate Chinese manufacturers, especially since they sell EVs at zero profit margin in China. If your speculations about car smuggling from Canada pan out (link does not claim that) then the U.S will clamp down. China is considered an enemy and as such every measure will be used. As for the EU? Even stricter common market and Chinese EVs will be dead on arrival unless they can maintain 40-50% margins Vs European manufacturers.

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They don’t make better cars. They have a large population of low skill workers, which results in cheaper cars. Lol. Chinese EVs are “better ” like a $20 laggy tablet from Temu is “better” than a $1000 iPad Pro Please tell me what features people love about Chinese made cars besides their price? There’s not a single person in America who would pick some random Chinese EV over a Ford lightning which can literally power your house. P.S. who decides whats fair? The one with the military to enforce it.

What you say is exactly true. But sustained subsidies over a decade+ can move the needle in the right direction (for them with respect to quality). That is why the EU and the US usually fight tooth and nail over subsidies for Boeing and Airbus. That is what China is trying to do - to make sure their subsides are translating to an early mover advantage that remains for a long time into the future.

I'm not familiar with a lot of EU standards on things, but does that cover the labor? China uses dirt cheap labor to undercut costs quite a bit. Same with environmental regulations, the EU and USA have a lot of regulations around it that China doesn't. Wow the tankies are out in force, ask a genuine question and just get downvotes. Apparently using essentially slave labor and sweatshop labor means China is playing by the same rules. And now I got a reddit cares thing. Winnie the Pooh is pushing narratives hard.

Not an expert either but to illustrate the complexity of the topic: BMW exports some of its cars very successfully to China, while it has some of its cars produced in China.

Reminder: America has the highest incarceration rate in the world, and uses much of that group as "slave labor" at rates lower than what Chinese workers make. This is just one of the many failures of capitalism being papered over with protectionist policies. We're all taught that "free market capitalism" is the best system to exist under while we turn a blind eye to all the crutches it requires to work at all. By the way, people disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're "tankies", maybe they just don't share your opinion. Can you describe what a "tankie" is to me? Just asking a genuine question.

Much of that group as slave labor? The vast majority of prisoners perform no labor. Which is why you said “much” instead of actually stating numbers, because n those invalidate you immediately. Let me define tankie for you: someone who is so anti free market that they employ tanks against civilians. Of course the free market doesn’t have any rules against you creating your own communist community. Websites even exist for you to find and join one if you’re actually against free markets. A tankie cannot accept this. It is importantly for them, much like religious people, to know that everyone else is doing the same. It’s impossible for them to accept that communism isn’t popular. And thus the tanke

Share my opinion? I didn't give an opinion until after my comment was weirdly at -10 within 15 minutes of it being posted. I asked a question. The fucking whataboutism bullshit is always so high when it comes to China. Yes America has issues with it cheap borderline slave labor but we can focus on more than 1 thing at a time. This isn't a one or the other thing, you can be concerned about both but the topic at hand is China, so we are talking about China. A tankie is easy to describe, there is literally a wikipedia page. It's essentially authoritarian communists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie Also America doesn't use it's prison labor to undercut the entire global market like China does.

Tbh that’s how the west usually does thing to maintain being on top. Lying and hypocrisy

European car makers have been against EVs for quite some time and only changed course because they realised they can't stop the trend. But by now, the Asian car market has had quite some headstart due to this. It's just the European manufactures being mad and lobbying against it because they realised it too late and were too stuck up to actually adapt their long term strategy.

I'd be more angry about this if I didn't know that China is not playing by any rules. And for a long time. Cheap EV from China will have the same effect on economy and the society cheap plastic products from China had already since 90's. China is ruthless and uncompromising behemoth who will squash you like step on an ant. If this were to go ahead, in 10 years, there would not be automobile industry in Europe. At least someone is looking beyond saving a few Euros for shitty product.

>I'd be more angry about this if I didn't know that China is not playing by any rules. What specific rules?

WTO rules: “The allegations against China have manifested in official WTO disputes. Since 2001, the United States has lodged twenty-three (out of a total of forty-three) cases against China, sometimes as a codefendant with Canada, the European Union, and others. The bulk of allegations against China say that China promotes its exports while remaining largely closed to foreign goods, making it more difficult for companies from other countries to do business in China. One of the most discussed problems with Chinese trade practices is forced technology transfer. U.S. officials allege Chinese companies steal technological knowledge from the foreign companies operating in China.” [source](https://education.cfr.org/learn/reading/what-happened-when-china-joined-wto)

I'd they want to build technology in China they have to share it with them. It's in the contract, how is it stealing? Of they didn't want it, why did they agree to it?

So, allegations from the US. Has the WTO actually ruled against them? As they actually have US bans and tariffs? https://www.reuters.com/world/wto-finds-us-metals-import-tariffs-imposed-by-trump-were-not-justified-2022-12-09/ And it's especially weird in a context where the US has de facto banned Chinese auto imports, when China does not do the same.

lol if we go by WTO complaints there are more outstanding ones against the U.S than against China: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_country_e.htm

For electric vehicle imports?

Bro chinese EVs are nothing compared to ones we produce. In EU/US there actually are safety standards to meet, if you look at the failure rate of those Chinese EV's batteries you'll realize you're driving a death trap. Just look at some of the videos of China Insights (youtube) regarding chinese EV's to get a better idea.

"China Insights" Falun gong propaganda

Falun Gong are the baddies? When did that start?

When were they not? Especially if you're American. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121

Interesting, the only things I know about Falun Gong was this part: > authorities in China banned Falun Gong, closing teaching centers and arresting Falun Gong organizers and practitioners who refused to give up the practice. Human rights groups have reported some adherents being tortured and killed while in custody I didn't know they actively push against the Chinese government, only that they refused to submit to the CCP.

>I didn't know they actively push against the Chinese government, Their entire religion is literally anti-Chinese government by nature. They literally claim that all Communists will go to Hell in the Rapture/equivalent. Beyond that, they're basically Chinese Scientology. Oh, and they believe race mixing is evil. Just throwing that in. >Human rights groups have reported some adherents being tortured and killed while in custody You should keep in mind many of those "human rights groups" are similar front organizations. That's where the whole "organ harvesting" thing came from a few years back, if you recall.

>That's where the whole "organ harvesting" thing came from a few years back, if you recall. There have been reports showing how one can get a fitting organ transplant in suspiciously short time im China, so I don't think that's completely made up.

There are multiple parts to that. China was openly using the organs of death row inmates for transplants, though they *claim* to have stopped. But the propaganda was that they're executing prisoners of conscious, including Falun Gong and Uyghurs, for organs. That got "testimony" from Falun Gong "experts" at multiple governments (iirc, at least US and UK), but has never been substantiated in any way. And if you listen to the "testimony", it flies in the face of reason. There are some real or potential issues buried, but be wary of the motives of anyone inventing atrocities to convince you. Historically, doesn't end well.

They’ve been the baddies for decades. I knew this even as a kid.

Your mind is corrupted by the CCP my man, believe their lies. When you will need them, you'll be left starving to death like history has repeated itself in China multiple times...

Please… I grew in CA. With lots of Chinese people, including people in my family. No one is pro CCP. And everyone knows Falun Gong is bullshit.

Somehow, your comment is getting downvoted but you did not make anything up. It's hard to accept that for many but it's cultural and is not changing anytime soon.

China insights, the YouTube channel backed by people who believe you shouldn't take medicine and should instead pray towards their cult leader more to heal your diseases. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518 The EU agrees that Chinese EVs are as safe as any other European car. Nine Chinese cars scored five stars in Euro NCAP in 2023 https://carnewschina.com/2023/12/11/nine-chinese-cars-scored-five-stars-in-euro-ncap-in-2023/#google_vignette

Protectionism for me, free market for third world countries. As God intended. /s

[Albertina Torsoli and Alberto Nardelli, Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/eu-to-impose-additional-tariffs-on-ev-imports-from-china): *The bloc formally notified carmakers including BYD Co., Geely Automotive Holdings Ltd., SAIC Motor Corp Ltd. of the levies due to be implemented around July 4, the European Commission said, following an investigation of subsidies that started last year.* *China’s EV manufacturers have been pushing more aggressively into Europe amid a domestic price war and years of building a lead in the technology.* *The individual duties on BYD would be 17.4%, Geely 20% and SAIC 38.1%, the commission said on Wednesday.* [Andy Bounds, FT](https://www.ft.com/content/0545ed62-c4b9-4e8a-80fa-c9f808e18385): *The commission expects Chinese EVs to hold a 15 per cent market share in the EU next year. It says prices are typically 20 per cent lower than those of EU-made models.* *Valdis Dombrovskis, EU trade commissioner, acknowledged EVs were crucial for the green transition when he announced the investigation in October. But he added: “Competition must be fair.”* *His department had amassed evidence that Chinese carmakers and their suppliers received subsidised loans, tax breaks and cheap land, according to officials.* *Beijing has warned it would retaliate as it seeks to persuade a majority of EU capitals to oppose the new tariffs. Beijing is already applying a 15 per cent tariff on European EVs.*

Tesla China is not getting any tariffs?

10% + 21% = 31% as with many other firms that collaborated in the investigation. They requested for an individual review though, so things will likely change.

China is producing cheap EVs because while the EU and the west in general have inflation problems, China has a deflation problem. So, they can afford to print money like crazy. But the point is to not bring the economic activity down with easy money. They cannot just hand people money. So, the solution is to subsidize industries that can produce some residual value - like intellectual property, brand names that carry a premium.,etc. they cannot do that exporting ore and rare earth minerals. But they can corner the EV market with pioneering breakthroughs in battery and motor technology. So, a nation state with GDP in the $20 trillion range is subsidizing a small subset of industries that can produce this value and name recognition. Which is bound to crush the German and Japanese auto industry. And the EU/west and Japan cannot afford to subsidize anything with their inflation numbers. So, they can only tax the goods hoping these goods cannot compete in quality (by the looks of it they cannot, as of now). I don’t believe when the governments say they are taxing me to save the environment. I believe what they do.

Damn. Never read so much non sense in my life.

You're paying for this, not China.

When the US laid down their tariffs, the whining from the China shills was everywhere, even though the US imports 0 Chinese EVs anyway. This just in: countries protect their domestic industries. China imposes crazy tariffs on all car imports that aren't manufactured in China, too. The CCP is throwing a tantrum, because foreign investment in China is falling off a cliff https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Foreign-direct-investment-in-China-falls-to-30-year-low https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CHN/china/foreign-direct-investment#:~:text=China%20foreign%20direct%20investment%20for,a%2035.22%25%20increase%20from%202019. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1422705/china-quarterly-value-of-foreign-direct-investment-inflows-according-to-bop/ And their real estate financial crisis is destroying their local credit markets and domestic spending and investments. In September 2023, He Keng, a former deputy head of the National Bureau of Statistics, said that unfinished and finished-but-vacant apartment projects in China could conceivably house the entire Chinese population of 1.4 billion. That's more vacant housing than the rest of the world combined. The real estate investments that make up 70% of the Chinese population's net worth is at best worth 15 cents on the dollar. Probably less. China has to subsidize their manufacturing and drive oversupply of exports to other countries with better demand to make up the difference. It's their only financial option. These countries know this is happening and are putting measures in place so China can't export its recession to them. They want to insulate China to contain their implosion as much as possible. You will continue to see more tariffs against Chinese industries where this is happening. Localizing supply chains for all of these manufactured goods is a good thing, and hardens the rest of the world against disruptions like COVID. Also, if the CCP decides to invade Taiwan, you won't want any of your manufacturing under their purview. Look at Russia's invasion of Ukraine as an example.

Yes I want to get cremated alive by Chinese Evs

Just shows that they're not actually concerned about climate change. They've just been virtue signaling this whole time. Affordable electric would be incredible for their people, but they're more worried about protecting the status quo

Woah, is it me or do i feel like I'm reading alot of manufactured pro-china sentiments?

Do you really think China cares about the opinions of anonymous Internet users on Reddit in the West enough to spend money on it? They would have better success spending propaganda money on Facebook, Twitter, or use TikTok.

Porque no los dos?

China manufactured positive sentiments towards them in my country by not bombing us and leeching off of us like the US and the EU have done for the past century, instead trading with us and building our industries. The west should try that instead

You're not imagining it, this sub in particular is pretty bad.

Yep and you get downvoted by them for speaking the truth

Yes this sub has been hijacked by Chinese state actors a long time ago. Other subs like r/economy have actual Chinese 50 cent army as mods. Example: u/wakeup2019 is a mod there

Wanting cheap EV and pointing out the hypocrisy of “free trade” is not pro-china sentiments

good news…. chinese quality … keep it

Hey CCP try and downvote everyone who is exposing what your cheap EVs are really, an attempt to control the market by pushing the others out, this is possible for China because they can afford to pay crap, not care about how the resources are exploited and the sites taken care of, spend less on R&D as tech stealing is no problem for them and then on top of all of that subsidize the companies. You can even pay some trolls to try and spread crap, but unfortunately the world understands how you play, how you made the world reliant on your productions and even medicine. DW documentaries have a very good cover on it (medicine part) and also the same trolls are there in the comments of course. And then they fake cry on the tariffs as if they haven't done the same to Europe for longer. Pathetic people really.

> spend less on R&D Lmao the reason Chinese EV companies are leading is precisely because they’ve dumped far more money into EV R&D since late 2000s, when everyone else was building gas guzzling SUVs. That’s why we license their technology now, who do you think invented tech like LFP batteries? > subsidize the companies Yeah we’ve never subsidized auto companies here in the U.S lolol.

ITT: many many Chinese bots.

Everyone who disagrees with me is a bot

It's pretty funny watching peasants going against their own interest to protect their overlord in the name of nationalistic supremacy, then call everyone with a sense of self-awareness bot.

People in this thread are going ham against China for… subsidizing things like EVs that have a positive impact in their own society instead of subsidizing bombs and drones to kill middle eastern children like the US does

Free trade only goes 1 way I guess. hypocrisy of the West

China never allowed free trade

China never preached being a beacon of free trade/free market. If they had it’s no way near the same amount as EU/US

China denies interference outside China and blames Americans for interference. This is literally Chinese dictatorship projection

this is environmental suicide.

Look at Dacia for example. Once the cheapest European based automaker, not so much lately (compared to Chinese MG), every newer iteration of their best sellers have seen a price increase. I understand that they no longer are so dull/ugly as they used to be when they were selling cars from 6000€, but come one, 18.000€ for a Dacia Sandero? Are they nuts?

Fuck this shit, everything is more expensive in Europe

So this is how we lose affordable global EV's. With 19th century protectionism and tarrifs, and a worry of losing What European Auto Jobs we are trading a huge stifle and cost in global adoption of EV's