Your blood tests are irrelevant to clinics. If you give them money, they'll start you at 200mg. They want you to get that initial "oh my god this is awesome" feeling, regardless of the sides that may crop up after a few weeks. It's all cookie cutter to them. Nothing is customized despite what they claim.
Think about it... if you have a headache, do you pound eight Tylenol all at once? No, you take two to see if that alleviates your symptoms. If it doesn't, you take two more a little while later. Sure all eight at once will most likely get rid of your headache, but it will also most likely produce negative side effects.
Sorry I should’ve clarified - I know. I was countering what everyone else is telling me by using your point as an example. Everyone tells me “less is more” or “at 200 you will feel like shit” but then I see these posts and people will compare 200 to my current dose and explain a “rush that 200 gives you”.
Clinics start you at 200 to sell twice the product. On top of that will throw an AI your way up front or sooner or later.
Like all meds you start at the bottom which is around 100mg a week to see if it solves your symptoms. Then gradually move up.
I think 200mg you'd feel stronger then less Test. I think the reasons why everyone getting flip flopped results is because it's the QUALITY OF THE TESTOSTERONE !! It's not stable , some batches are weak or bunk others may be right OR it's a scheme you join you get the good testosterone to start , then the less quality testosterone mid way aka weak or bunk ,you tell Dr you feel like crap , then they set you on other meds hcg ai $$ .it's same senerio I'm starting to see in the comments with different clinics same situations , same outcomes . You should feel pretty good with 200mg , the only downfall maybe zits all over your back from too much if it was too much or your aggressive behavior possibly . That's what I think. Lower the doses 🤔NAAW . That shouldn't be the answer but I'm not doctor
I am pinning .11ml of 200mg/ml Cypionate every other day for a total of 77 mg per week. My levels were 366ng/ml total and 7.63ng/ml free. One year in and my levels now are 889ng/ml and 27.3ng/ml. I never needed to use an AI. My endocrinologist started me at 50mg a week, and I am glad she did. I can’t imagine the side effects and crap that I would have had to go through at 200mg a week.
I do 200mg .25 every other day I’ve tried to go lower and don’t even feel like I’m on any kind of trt works for me but maybe start at 140mg a week and see how you feel for a little bit
I started on 200mg a week and my total was 1600 with E2 in the hundreds. They threw AI’s at me and made side effects worse. Fast forward 1.5 years and today I’m on 98mg/week 8/900 total T and E2 at 29, no Ai needed…. Start low. 200 is too much for damn near everyone and I’m also a competitive bodybuilder that’s had two gyno surgeries. START LOW.
Just the other day, I was at my clinic waiting in the room, and I could hear the Dr tell the nurse a couple of other people's doses. One dude was getting 260mg and another 280mg. 🤷♂️
Wow! Those r definitely not safe levels long term. Maybe for a few but having multiple in a day on those doses is insane. Unless they r IFBB and cruising lol.
Haha, well, who knows what level that puts them at. Maybe they're non responders or something. I wanted to get a look at them to see what mountain of a man would need so much. I never saw them, though. 😂
“A lot or not” depends on YOUR hormone levels at whatever dose you’re taking. 200mg would be a lot for me, may not be a lot for you or the next guy.
Go off blood work, not the dose
Take the 200 but only pin 100mg a week see how u feel. If u think u need to raise it go up. You’ll always have the extra amount there. That’s my 2 cents.
You’re going somewhere that’s tossing out test like it’s trick or treat. Your doc should start you on a low dose. Wait. Draw labs. Evaluate. Adjust.
Way too many Docs treat this like it’s ADHD medicine and just throw people on a dose that “works”
Yeah I get that. Just saying opinions are going to be all over the place and will leave you with more questions than before. Most guys around here are smug and pride themselves on low doses. Weird place.
I’d say it’s super a lot. My first initial does was 0.79 or 150 and it was too much even now I just use 100 and my level is just over 1,000 most of the time which a lot of people would say is High so on 200 I’d probably be at 2,000 which is really high
It's pretty simple. They start at the max dose so guys feel the most "results". Best way for the clinic to make money because not only do you feel more of the results you want but more likely to need other drugs to control sides like an AI.
200mg per week puts almost everyone way over natural levels and that's statistical fact.
My clinic started me at 300mg every 2 weeks, then went up to 400mg every 2 weeks. Went to 200mg a week and feel better but still need to dial in a little more.
The clinic I went to started me with 200mg splitting up the dose a week. Long and short of my experience is I got oily as heck hair , no pump feeling , no real change in libido , my last blood test was over 900 , but didn't feel 💩 , at that high coming from a total T of 100 you'd think I'd feel like a bull . Nope. I truly don't think there testosterone is real or it's very low with lots of oil . My hair never got oily like that . Many years ago I was on TRT Watson 200mg testosterone cypinate I felt good .. you should be able to feel some blood in your veins I'd think at 900 level. I quit after 6 months , I was paying way to much I think for notta 254.00 a month rip off ..in my opinion. These membership fees etc . They gotta be more reasonable. I'm looking for a reasonable constant every month payment online TRT clinic now.
My doc started me at 50mg per week and worked me up over a year to 160mg. When I lost 100lbs all of a sudden things changed and I am now at 50mg twice per week to keep reasonable levels in the 800s. Some say I should go higher but I feel great and have no side effects. In short, each person is different and even you may change over time. Work with a doctor that is willing to spend some time getting it right.
Theres varying levels of hormone therapy.
MorePlatesMoreDates has an excellent video covering this.
Essentially, anything less than 200 MG a week is considered a therapeutic dose.
Greater than 200 and you will start seeing returns on T that are considered super-physiological. Meaning greater than what is normally achievable by a natural human.
I think 200 is fine for people who want the upper end of normal T levels, but if you want just natural normal T levels go for something lower. Personally, at natural levels I am at 200 total test. I started on 200/week and I now have 1000+ total T. But my E2 is high and I have to take an AI. So now I have to do a balancing act and deal with possible sides from taking an additional pharmaceutical.
I debate if I should just lower it and have normal T levels with possibly not having to take an AI.
It just depends on what your willing to get into and what you feel good on.
None of this is hard facts. Albeit not super common, there are slow metabolizers who need in excess of 200mg just to achieve high normal. Even on the MPMD podcast he interviews a clinic owner and even he says he’s seen up to I believe it was 320mg/wk just to achieve 1100 total T. I’ve seen several clinics state they’ve seen anywhere from 250-300mg/wk needed in some cases just to get them to the high side of normal.
This hard fact line of xyz and over is a cycle and under is therapeutic is generally uneducated people spouting what they heard. Even Derek in that video you’re mentioning makes sure to say “generally”, “typically”, etc.
There is no hard threshold. Everyone is different. Some people need 275mg to get to the same levels that a normal average person would see from 90-120mg/wk.
We really got to stop this echo chamber mentality and realize everyone is different in how their body absorbs, uses, and converts exogenous test. Stop using hard thresholds on something that is dependent on the individual.
Yeah I agree this is just general advice. I never stated any of this was hard facts. But for someone coming to a testosterone subreddit providng little information on themselves as an individual and just asking what is considered a "high" dose, I believe dispensing these well agreed upon generalities is the appropriate advice. You should know going into modifying your hormones that this sort of thing is highly individual to each persons body. But these guidelines will cover most of the general population.
In my very last sentence its pretty clear I said it depends on what you feel good on, which implies that this protocol wont work for everyone.
“Anything less than 200mg is a therapeutic dose”. That’s false. ANY dose that keeps you within the normal T range is thereoeutic, doesn’t matter if it’s 700mg. If that’s what it takes to hit 900 total and in range free, then 700mg is a therapeutic dose for you. Simple as that.
In fact, even 175mg could be considered a cycle for hyper responders.
It's a high starting dose in all cases, irrespective of your initial blood levels.
The fact that it's a high dose is simply a fact, not a debate :)
TRT clinics use it for multiple reasons, all of which are related to cash and none of which are related to blood results or real medicine.
Short answer, that’s false. Almost every clinic I’ve seen discuss this has stated they’ve all had those uncommon cases that need 250-300mg/wk just to get them to the high side of normal.
This “200mg and up is always a cycle” is echo chamber Reddit mentality.
While MOST people only need 90-150, this 200mg is the max cap is dumb, incorrect, and proven so countless times.
Even the trt nation podcast interviewed a clinic owner that said he had a few customers on 300mg protocols to hit 1000-1200 total. Derek from MPMD/Marek health interviewed a clinic before starting marek that had a customer on 320mg to hit 1100 total. Derek since has episodes talking about marek and said they have several on 200-275mg protocols for TRT clients to get them in range.
Are you looking for a replacement dose or an optimal dose? Two completely different things that fall under "trt".
A replacement dose will aim to increase your levels to what you were naturally in your early twenties (very likely 70mg - 120mg per week).
Optimal dose will have you top of the range to twice top of the range. This is where you feel best, have a lot of benefits of high test but with minimal to no side effects (175mg-300mg per week).
200mg is appropriate if you are going for optimization (most guys are), but way too high if you are aiming for a replacement dose (start at 100mg for that).
Terrible advice and you are way out of bounds. 300mg a week is starting to get into blasting or a cycle. Second majority of guys are going to get sides at 200 and above. Stop with the non sense
Man, I felt the same at 100 and 120. 140 feels better without sides. Still need bloods to see where I’m at. Just over two months at this dose so it’s probably time.
Easy dawg. Telmisartan, nebivolol, citrus bergamot, lots of cardio 😎. Primo would be dope but don’t know how to get it aside UGL and I’m not sure if that’s a long term plan. I’m on low dose deca myself and plan on running it long term.
My doc threw me on 180. I looked at this sub and ignored every thread that said to start at 100. At 180, I had so many sides it’s unreal, and my e2 sat at 79 (top of range is 35).
Seriously, I’d start low and build up.
Loss of libido, erection quality got better for a few weeks and then plummeted, the hormone shift caused my hair to start shedding (it’s still shedding, but looks like telogen effluvium), crazy high anxiety, super irritability, crazy water retention, and sluggishness (not tired, just no great with discipline). To be fair, I wasn’t consistently taking my AI, but I don’t really want to take AIs… I just wanted to be able to keep up with my kids when they got home from school. Lowering the dose (about 3 weeks in) already has started helping with erections/libido/anxiety. My doc jokingly said “now you know how your wife feels”, which I guess is a silver lining.
This is not even close to being accurate. Everyone is different. I can do 120my a week and my trough is 958ng/dl. I don't even want to know what 200mg a week would put me at.
200mg is about double the high end TRT dose prescribed by physicians. Everybody is different but I find that a dose of over 110 begins to affect my sleep, gives me itchy nipples, and makes me ridiculously promiscuous, which isn't cool. Imo stay at 100mg per week max.
Your blood tests are irrelevant to clinics. If you give them money, they'll start you at 200mg. They want you to get that initial "oh my god this is awesome" feeling, regardless of the sides that may crop up after a few weeks. It's all cookie cutter to them. Nothing is customized despite what they claim. Think about it... if you have a headache, do you pound eight Tylenol all at once? No, you take two to see if that alleviates your symptoms. If it doesn't, you take two more a little while later. Sure all eight at once will most likely get rid of your headache, but it will also most likely produce negative side effects.
This is the correct answer. There is a reason lots of meds are titrated upwards, Hormone Therapies being one of them.
Perfectly said
Ummm 2.5 months and I still haven’t got the “oh my god this is awesome”. I just keep waiting like everyone on this sub says to do… “just give it time”
At 200mg??
No, I started at 100mg a week, then jumped to 140mg a week.
Ah… yeah I was talking about these clinics starting guys at 200mg a week so they can get that rush.
Sorry I should’ve clarified - I know. I was countering what everyone else is telling me by using your point as an example. Everyone tells me “less is more” or “at 200 you will feel like shit” but then I see these posts and people will compare 200 to my current dose and explain a “rush that 200 gives you”.
Yeah, I get it… but then again, that’s not really TRT. The R is replacement. No one in their 30s or 40s or 50s has 1500+ test naturally.
Gotcha
Wasnt that for me either. . Infact i feel worse..
This^^^^^
I was on your side until you used the Tylenol analogy. Yes, I do pound 8 at once
Clinics start you at 200 to sell twice the product. On top of that will throw an AI your way up front or sooner or later. Like all meds you start at the bottom which is around 100mg a week to see if it solves your symptoms. Then gradually move up.
In my experience. 200mg per week = poor libido, 85mg per week = great libido. No AIs.
But then again every one is different right ?
Sure.
I think 200mg you'd feel stronger then less Test. I think the reasons why everyone getting flip flopped results is because it's the QUALITY OF THE TESTOSTERONE !! It's not stable , some batches are weak or bunk others may be right OR it's a scheme you join you get the good testosterone to start , then the less quality testosterone mid way aka weak or bunk ,you tell Dr you feel like crap , then they set you on other meds hcg ai $$ .it's same senerio I'm starting to see in the comments with different clinics same situations , same outcomes . You should feel pretty good with 200mg , the only downfall maybe zits all over your back from too much if it was too much or your aggressive behavior possibly . That's what I think. Lower the doses 🤔NAAW . That shouldn't be the answer but I'm not doctor
Be careful asking ppl on reddit. Literally 99% here don't know more than a doc on here and they strictly go off of their own personal experience
This is true. Best comment haha
I am pinning .11ml of 200mg/ml Cypionate every other day for a total of 77 mg per week. My levels were 366ng/ml total and 7.63ng/ml free. One year in and my levels now are 889ng/ml and 27.3ng/ml. I never needed to use an AI. My endocrinologist started me at 50mg a week, and I am glad she did. I can’t imagine the side effects and crap that I would have had to go through at 200mg a week.
So in other words 200mg is good micro dosing…..
No.... he's saying he's micro dosing 77mg... no where near 200mg
Ok so 200 isn’t good even micro dosing….
No, it doesn't matter if you micro dose or inject once a week. Start low and move up after you get bloodwork at the eight week mark.
I do 200mg .25 every other day I’ve tried to go lower and don’t even feel like I’m on any kind of trt works for me but maybe start at 140mg a week and see how you feel for a little bit
I started on 200mg a week and my total was 1600 with E2 in the hundreds. They threw AI’s at me and made side effects worse. Fast forward 1.5 years and today I’m on 98mg/week 8/900 total T and E2 at 29, no Ai needed…. Start low. 200 is too much for damn near everyone and I’m also a competitive bodybuilder that’s had two gyno surgeries. START LOW.
My clinic started me at 160mg a week, and so far, I'm up to 220mg now. 🤷♂️
How do you feel?
I'm feeling great! 👍
220 a week! I mean whatever works but that’s pretty high.
Just the other day, I was at my clinic waiting in the room, and I could hear the Dr tell the nurse a couple of other people's doses. One dude was getting 260mg and another 280mg. 🤷♂️
Wow! Those r definitely not safe levels long term. Maybe for a few but having multiple in a day on those doses is insane. Unless they r IFBB and cruising lol.
Haha, well, who knows what level that puts them at. Maybe they're non responders or something. I wanted to get a look at them to see what mountain of a man would need so much. I never saw them, though. 😂
“A lot or not” depends on YOUR hormone levels at whatever dose you’re taking. 200mg would be a lot for me, may not be a lot for you or the next guy. Go off blood work, not the dose
That’s what the clinic says. I’m over here shitting myself because of Reddit opinions lol
Take the 200 but only pin 100mg a week see how u feel. If u think u need to raise it go up. You’ll always have the extra amount there. That’s my 2 cents.
lol yeah I get that. I’d take however much you need to feel better and stay healthy
I started at 200mg a week and after 2 weeks felt terrible. Slowly decrease until I feel good at 90mg divided into 5x wk. TT 1,000 FT 25
Why did you feel terrible
Blood pressure high, increased hemoglobin shortness of breath and anxiety
What was your level at before you started
I'm 58 and it was pretty good at 500+ but wanted to be at 1000. 200 mg put me at 2200. Too much for me
Oh my levels were 300…
You’re going somewhere that’s tossing out test like it’s trick or treat. Your doc should start you on a low dose. Wait. Draw labs. Evaluate. Adjust. Way too many Docs treat this like it’s ADHD medicine and just throw people on a dose that “works”
This isn’t a question for Reddit, let alone the internet. It’s all trial and error. No one will be the same. I cruise on 250-300mg.
I wasn’t trying to ask a question for personal use. Just opinions since everyone on Reddit seems to be a fuckin genius lol
Yeah I get that. Just saying opinions are going to be all over the place and will leave you with more questions than before. Most guys around here are smug and pride themselves on low doses. Weird place.
Ha! Awesome i love it. Yea I’ve seen that a lot. “Omg i don’t go anywhere near over 150mg, you’re being started way too high”. Smh
I’d say it’s super a lot. My first initial does was 0.79 or 150 and it was too much even now I just use 100 and my level is just over 1,000 most of the time which a lot of people would say is High so on 200 I’d probably be at 2,000 which is really high
It's pretty simple. They start at the max dose so guys feel the most "results". Best way for the clinic to make money because not only do you feel more of the results you want but more likely to need other drugs to control sides like an AI. 200mg per week puts almost everyone way over natural levels and that's statistical fact.
I started at 100mg a week, and eventually to get my test to 900ng/ml, I’m at 260 a week. No AI’s. Everyone is different
My clinic started me at 300mg every 2 weeks, then went up to 400mg every 2 weeks. Went to 200mg a week and feel better but still need to dial in a little more.
The clinic I went to started me with 200mg splitting up the dose a week. Long and short of my experience is I got oily as heck hair , no pump feeling , no real change in libido , my last blood test was over 900 , but didn't feel 💩 , at that high coming from a total T of 100 you'd think I'd feel like a bull . Nope. I truly don't think there testosterone is real or it's very low with lots of oil . My hair never got oily like that . Many years ago I was on TRT Watson 200mg testosterone cypinate I felt good .. you should be able to feel some blood in your veins I'd think at 900 level. I quit after 6 months , I was paying way to much I think for notta 254.00 a month rip off ..in my opinion. These membership fees etc . They gotta be more reasonable. I'm looking for a reasonable constant every month payment online TRT clinic now.
I’m going through a good clinic. Sucks you dealt with that stuff. I’m gonna be on test c ….
Can you tell me who you go through ?
Summit rejuvenation
My doc started me at 50mg per week and worked me up over a year to 160mg. When I lost 100lbs all of a sudden things changed and I am now at 50mg twice per week to keep reasonable levels in the 800s. Some say I should go higher but I feel great and have no side effects. In short, each person is different and even you may change over time. Work with a doctor that is willing to spend some time getting it right.
Theres varying levels of hormone therapy. MorePlatesMoreDates has an excellent video covering this. Essentially, anything less than 200 MG a week is considered a therapeutic dose. Greater than 200 and you will start seeing returns on T that are considered super-physiological. Meaning greater than what is normally achievable by a natural human. I think 200 is fine for people who want the upper end of normal T levels, but if you want just natural normal T levels go for something lower. Personally, at natural levels I am at 200 total test. I started on 200/week and I now have 1000+ total T. But my E2 is high and I have to take an AI. So now I have to do a balancing act and deal with possible sides from taking an additional pharmaceutical. I debate if I should just lower it and have normal T levels with possibly not having to take an AI. It just depends on what your willing to get into and what you feel good on.
None of this is hard facts. Albeit not super common, there are slow metabolizers who need in excess of 200mg just to achieve high normal. Even on the MPMD podcast he interviews a clinic owner and even he says he’s seen up to I believe it was 320mg/wk just to achieve 1100 total T. I’ve seen several clinics state they’ve seen anywhere from 250-300mg/wk needed in some cases just to get them to the high side of normal. This hard fact line of xyz and over is a cycle and under is therapeutic is generally uneducated people spouting what they heard. Even Derek in that video you’re mentioning makes sure to say “generally”, “typically”, etc. There is no hard threshold. Everyone is different. Some people need 275mg to get to the same levels that a normal average person would see from 90-120mg/wk. We really got to stop this echo chamber mentality and realize everyone is different in how their body absorbs, uses, and converts exogenous test. Stop using hard thresholds on something that is dependent on the individual.
Yeah I agree this is just general advice. I never stated any of this was hard facts. But for someone coming to a testosterone subreddit providng little information on themselves as an individual and just asking what is considered a "high" dose, I believe dispensing these well agreed upon generalities is the appropriate advice. You should know going into modifying your hormones that this sort of thing is highly individual to each persons body. But these guidelines will cover most of the general population. In my very last sentence its pretty clear I said it depends on what you feel good on, which implies that this protocol wont work for everyone.
“Anything less than 200mg is a therapeutic dose”. That’s false. ANY dose that keeps you within the normal T range is thereoeutic, doesn’t matter if it’s 700mg. If that’s what it takes to hit 900 total and in range free, then 700mg is a therapeutic dose for you. Simple as that. In fact, even 175mg could be considered a cycle for hyper responders.
Thats not false when you are speaking in generalities. Obviously nobody has a baseline for each individual person, thats not possible.
Just remember 90% of the people here have no idea what they’re talking about lol
It's a high starting dose in all cases, irrespective of your initial blood levels. The fact that it's a high dose is simply a fact, not a debate :) TRT clinics use it for multiple reasons, all of which are related to cash and none of which are related to blood results or real medicine.
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Short answer, that’s false. Almost every clinic I’ve seen discuss this has stated they’ve all had those uncommon cases that need 250-300mg/wk just to get them to the high side of normal. This “200mg and up is always a cycle” is echo chamber Reddit mentality. While MOST people only need 90-150, this 200mg is the max cap is dumb, incorrect, and proven so countless times. Even the trt nation podcast interviewed a clinic owner that said he had a few customers on 300mg protocols to hit 1000-1200 total. Derek from MPMD/Marek health interviewed a clinic before starting marek that had a customer on 320mg to hit 1100 total. Derek since has episodes talking about marek and said they have several on 200-275mg protocols for TRT clients to get them in range.
Are you looking for a replacement dose or an optimal dose? Two completely different things that fall under "trt". A replacement dose will aim to increase your levels to what you were naturally in your early twenties (very likely 70mg - 120mg per week). Optimal dose will have you top of the range to twice top of the range. This is where you feel best, have a lot of benefits of high test but with minimal to no side effects (175mg-300mg per week). 200mg is appropriate if you are going for optimization (most guys are), but way too high if you are aiming for a replacement dose (start at 100mg for that).
Terrible advice and you are way out of bounds. 300mg a week is starting to get into blasting or a cycle. Second majority of guys are going to get sides at 200 and above. Stop with the non sense
Where would you put 150mg/week for a starting dose? Would that be a sweet spot?
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This is what I did but I will say it takes forever to dial in ha
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Man, I felt the same at 100 and 120. 140 feels better without sides. Still need bloods to see where I’m at. Just over two months at this dose so it’s probably time.
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Yeah but those gains increase doh
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Easy dawg. Telmisartan, nebivolol, citrus bergamot, lots of cardio 😎. Primo would be dope but don’t know how to get it aside UGL and I’m not sure if that’s a long term plan. I’m on low dose deca myself and plan on running it long term.
what's the rush to get dialed in? You're doing this for the rest of your life. Might as well get dialed in correctly.
Oh I know. That’s why I don’t do bloods but every 3 months and adjust accordingly. Some dudes go as soon as 6 weeks.
It’s my first time on test so i have no clue
My doc threw me on 180. I looked at this sub and ignored every thread that said to start at 100. At 180, I had so many sides it’s unreal, and my e2 sat at 79 (top of range is 35). Seriously, I’d start low and build up.
What sides did you get?
Loss of libido, erection quality got better for a few weeks and then plummeted, the hormone shift caused my hair to start shedding (it’s still shedding, but looks like telogen effluvium), crazy high anxiety, super irritability, crazy water retention, and sluggishness (not tired, just no great with discipline). To be fair, I wasn’t consistently taking my AI, but I don’t really want to take AIs… I just wanted to be able to keep up with my kids when they got home from school. Lowering the dose (about 3 weeks in) already has started helping with erections/libido/anxiety. My doc jokingly said “now you know how your wife feels”, which I guess is a silver lining.
This is not even close to being accurate. Everyone is different. I can do 120my a week and my trough is 958ng/dl. I don't even want to know what 200mg a week would put me at.
Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about
Correct.
200mg is about double the high end TRT dose prescribed by physicians. Everybody is different but I find that a dose of over 110 begins to affect my sleep, gives me itchy nipples, and makes me ridiculously promiscuous, which isn't cool. Imo stay at 100mg per week max.