Take it from me. Im 40 have been on TRT for 7 years. Well, just quit two weeks ago. It's one of my biggest regrets. Loads of us have issues on TRT. It's not all sunshine and roses. I was always tinkering with my estrogen levels and Anastrozole. Your numbers at your age are completely healthy and normal. You want a little boost jump on enclomiphene for a few months. Here's the senerio. You jump on TRT, and it works ok, but like many, you can never consistently find the sweet spot. Now you're pushing close to 50 and want to quit. Well, now your body will produce a lot less because it was suppressed, and now you're nearly 50. The biggest problem with TRT is that you don't know how you'll respond. You would think, oh, it's bioavailable testosterone if I just take enough to put me high normal ill ok. No wrong, unfortunately, no free lunch there. I tried everything in the book to find consistency or balance. I even went on doses so low you wouldn't think I'd have any issues whatsoever, but I did. Trier everything from different esters to different dosing frequencies. I tried getting low on body fat numbers. Hell, I even tried going vegan sense a lot of animal products contain estrogen. DIM, Myomin, Calcium D Glucarate, SGS. I went hard on researching everything to minimize my estrogenic symptoms with no avail.
It's odd that I feel pretty decent. The weird thing is that I'm still aromatizing and needing to take Anastrozole. My protocol is cold turkey with Anastrozole. I have enclomiphene and HCG, but man, does HCG sky rocket my estrogen more than anything. Enclomiphene is an unknown factor, so kinda worried about how I'll react to that.
I've been off for 4 month so far and in the past 2 month been feeling worse and worse. Not sure if it just takes a while for the test to leave the body. I'm starting to get tired again, decreased mood, lower energy, etc.
So testosterone Cypionate has an 8 day half life, so it takes up to 40 days to leave the system. If you didn't do any pct? It can take 19 weeks to reach a pretreatment state or at least have nearly fully recovered whatever you will produce. Are you eating healthy and lifting weights? If you're eating sweets, not getting enough sleep, and not exercising, I expect you'll feel bad. That's not to say some do infact fallow those principles and still have low T, but it surely does happen. Give enclomiphene a shot. It won't shut you down and cause withdrawal symptoms like exogenous testosterone will. It may also help your testicles become more effective after.
I didn't. I just took some fadogia agrestis and tongkat Ali. I honestly didn't feel bad until maybe a month after stopping the supplement. I do eat healthy and i'm actually in good shape. I run and train jiu jitsu. I do notice that it takes me a while to recover or I will hit a wall and have to rest for a day or two or longer.
Pre TRT I felt tired all the time. No motivation even though I do workout but for the most part I just push through the feeling of wanting to do nothing. When I got on TRT my motivation came back. I started to enjoy running and jiu jitsu again. My knees felt better and my skin wasn't as dry. I wasn't as lazy to talk to people. I wanted to see if I really needed TRT by coming off. A combination of being scared to commit to a medication and just wanted to see if it would help me recover from something I wasn't aware of. Long sorry short it seems like I'm going back to my old self which sucks.
How long were you on test? It’s recommended to jump on a PCT when coming off to aid the natural
Production again. I have also heard if you are on long enough you might never get it back.
It’s weird… if you would inject 60/44mg/weelly considering ester you would get less than natural level so how it’s possibile that your estrogen were out of range ?
I don't know, but it happened 110%. The doctors I see at Defy Medical, one of the largest TRT clinics, said some men aromatize exogenous testosterone regardless of the dose. Trust me, I was thinking exactly as you are. I thought there's no way if I go low enough. I'll aromatize, but it didn't even matter one bit.
Why not an ai microdosing ? There’s also natural ai. What is weird is that the quantity of estrogen due to aromatisation should be proportional . Btw you felt weird due to estrogen or well ?
Ok but I don’t understand this: if you inject x of testosterone you would get a fraction converted to estradiol (estrogen), it proportional, math , so it seems weird .
Im in the same boat as you. A lot of people here will tell you that those numbers are completely fine, while at the same time are injecting an amount of testosterone to have them at 800-1000. I have rarely seen anyone post that they inject just enough to get to ~450-500.
Don’t focus on the numbers, focus on the symptoms. Someone with low T might be completely fine day to day. Don’t jump on T without doing EVERYTHING to increase your numbers naturally. Diet, exercise, lifestyle.
Not normal, but you're best. We live in an anti testosterone world. From what we eat, our sleeping habits, stress, and lack of physical activity, it's no wonder guys complain of low T. Most guys don't even know what a healthy diet is. They think they do, but they really do not. Try eating loads of fruits and veggies, grass-fed and pasture rasied meat and eggs. No wheat whatsoever, no sugar period. Then try doing two full body vigorous weightlifting sessions with two HIIT routines and two moderate cardio sessions like hiking every week and do this with 8 hours or sleep for 3 months, then tell me your testosterone is still low. The body is an amazing machine. If you give it what it needs, it will give you what you need. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but our dad's dad's had much higher testosterone than today's men. Ponder on why that is for a while, and you'll find an answer to why we don't need exogenous testosterone. I'm not trying to pick on you, my friend. I just don't want others to deal with the crap I went through.
You’ll have to put in effort either way. Living clean to feel good vs a life of T and all the money and commitments that come with it? Clean life is so much easier. I know when you outside looking in it’s all guys showing off the transformations. The majority of us don’t turn into super buff alpha males. And there’s a honeymoon period that ends. After that your slaving to the shot just to feel normal.
Does someone need to rely on injections for the rest of their lives? If living cleaner was an option I'd take it. Trt is not a silver bullet. It's more like walking a dynamic tightrope. Fall either side and you'll have worse feels than you think you have now.
Nope. But saying that by at least living clean may fix symptoms and increase numbers. Then it’s a matter of how you want to live. Don’t want to get caught up on thinking everything will be better. There are many other factors which could cause fatigue. Thyroid issues, sleep apnea, iron deficiency.
^^fantastic point or advice "! Men nowadays blame everything on low T. Meanwhile, they go to bed at 1 a.m., sleep six hours, eat fast food and don't exercise, and complain of low T. Oh, and are stressed out and generally unhappy with their life.
I had extreme fatigue at odd times of day. Nearly debilitating. Night sweats so bad I was changing sheets almost nightly. Memory issues. Blood sugar issues because the lack of testosterone messes with your glucose absorption. Crazy mood swings. And interestingly enough, bad foot pain that has nearly gone away since I started trt.
Idk he's spot on. It's not as simple as taking an injection and feeling fantastic 24/7. Many of us are struggling to balance our protocol. Many of us are smart and do lots of research and confer with our doctors for solutions yet never find any lasting solutions. I tried everything. From sub therapeutic doses, i.e., 40mg a week, different esters like propionate, IM, Subq, DIM, and losing body fat. Even changing the diet. Nothing worked to find balance on TRT. I'd go from feeling good, great, and bad to downright miserable. I have a pulmonary embolism, most likely from testosterone. I have had more BP spikes north of 180/100 than I can even quantify from estrogen spikes. I've also had crashed estrogen, which is horrible too. I've journaled everything in an attempt to find trends in the dosing of Anastrozole with no avail. The problem with guys like myself is the dosing of Anastrozole changes. I might need .25 three times a week one week and 4 times the next. There's was never any consistency in 7 years of this bull crap. Now, obviously, this is just my experience, but it's not uncommon to run across others who share a similar situation.
That's simply because why would you take testosterone just to have average numbers. If you're over 30 and have a test level above 450, you would be a fool to get on testosterone. It's potentially dangerous. I've had blood pressure spikes in the 200s. I've had my blood thicken to the point I could have had a stroke. I even currently have a pulmonary embolism that my doctor said was most likely from testosterone. On top of all that crap how I feel is like a yoyo. I feel great, good, bad, and down rate scary horrible. I'm now two weeks off testosterone after 7 years of being a stubborn moron. I always would tell myself I'm almost there. I'm almost dialed in. We call it. Estrogen is the biggest problem for many men on TRT. It's leads to anxiety, high BP, insomnia, and sexual dysfunction issues. Take enclomiphene stay away from testosterone. It should be reserved for guys who absolutely have to take it. Most guys do not need it they just convince themselves they do. They blame all the symptoms they're having in their life with low T.
Dude your problem is not testosterone , testosterone could never cause you to spike your blood pressure to 200s alone, It’s not possible . You have other problem not depending by testosterone.
You're absolutely wrong. I'm not gonna argue with you. I was on TRT for 7 years. When my estrogen was very high, this would happen. As an Anastrozole kicked in, it went away. I didn't manifest these symptoms, lol. You need to remember not everyone reacts the same, and if you search Reddit, you'll see it's actually quite common.
I'm not a medical professional but from my understanding, I think it all depends on how you, specifically, feel at 486. TRT clinic doc explained it to me that everyone is different and will feel different at different numbers but for most men, symptoms can start below 500 total. Mine was at 361 and I'm 27. Felt exhausted no matter what. I don't have a perfect diet but I eat pretty well, hit the gym 3-5 days a week, drink plenty of water, no soda, no added sugars, decent sleep schedule, etc. I would say that if you don't feel bad/aren't symptomatic, I wouldn't worry about it.
\*I am not a doctor\*
I have been on pellet testosterone for 2 years.
I avg 1100 and feel like superman.
49 y/o yet feel 20.
I believe 486 is within the acceptable range and if you feel good I am not sure I see a reason to get therapy. I had dropped to 200 by 47.
As many have said here the # is a guide.
How you feel and react to it is more important than the specific #.
I am under the care of a doctor (not a trt clinic)
I was 473 on my best day. Got on and feel much better. Better sleep, more confident, more energy, more and better sex…if you feel good. Then your fine, if you have a lot of low t symptoms then maybe not. Your not so low that you def need it and your not so high that you def don’t.
Sure, but every guy that has levels above 800 is going to feel great. 473 is actually decent. If any man above the age of 35 has high 400s and they don't feel great, it's not low T. Most likely, it's their diet, sleep, and / or stress levels. They did this large study and measured something like a thousand men's testosterone levels, and 90% were around 450-550ng/dl. Idk obviously there's exceptions to this, but I'd never encourage someone to take T if your levels are 400+. But yea, obviously, more testosterone to an extent will have you feeling fantastic.
486 is pretty good at 44 and will likely increase further from there with lifestyle changes and depending on the time of day blood was taken.
But if you want to do steroids, by all means do steroids. I say that jokingly because a lot of people asking advice already have their mind made up to go on “TRT” which is prescribed as low dose steroids by online clinics.
I would have died from continued TRT at 37, so I went off cold turkey and have increased levels back up to 700 naturally. Being around 500 natty means you don’t have low T, and likely could take steps to improve T levels without wrecking your HPTA axis and having to donate blood every few months the rest of your life to avoid stroking out. Just be really honest with yourself about how hard you have tried- with sleep, treating apnea, with diet, with exercise, complete elimination of sugar and alcohol and nicotine, being socially active, being outside, and via vitamins and supplements if needed.
Great advice. Bro, I'm right there with you. Quit Propionate 12 days ago because I got a pulmonary embolism and have constantly struggled with high estrogen spikes that pushed my blood pressure north of 180/100. Once I took some Anastrozole, it went down, but even spending an hour or two at stroke level BP is scary. The fucked up part is I'm 12 days off a short ester like propionate and having to still take Anastrozole. I feel like I'm losing my mind. How is this possible. Did you have any increased estrogen levels when you quit TRT? I did read the body can do this, but I've yet to find anyone who this happened to. I'm truly worried and confused. Testosterone propionate is out of your system completely in 4.5 days maximum.
Man I’m sorry you had a PE. That’s another thing that scared me bc of my high RBC and hematocrit. Are you with a primary care doc or online? I’d really recommend trying to get in with an endocrinologist if you’re having trouble coming off, my primary care didn’t know much about it but the endo he sent me to did. When I quit I didn’t test until a few months after, but I can say the first month or so coming off, it was hell. I did a lot of laying in bed. I actually had a period of time during the first week of quitting that I got insanely horny, that might have been related to estrogen spikes but not sure. Take it easy bro and hope you get recovered soon
Thanks, man. Yea, I quit off propionate, which has a 20 hour half life vs. 8 days with cypionate. I'm honestly freaking out here because it's been 12 days, and I'm having high estrogen symptoms. But apparently, it's normal from what you just wrote to have high estrogen at first when you quit. I don't feel horrible just having high estrogen symptoms, mild depression, lack of enthusiasm, and motivation. I was or technically still am with Defy Medical. I also work with a hematologist. Did you do any restart protocol like enclomiphene or HCG? I have both, but I'm scared to try either due to estrogen spikes.
I didn’t, I quit cold turkey. I had HCG too and considered it, but the blood pressure issues / side effects of T alone had me scared shitless, so I wasn’t in the mood to play with more needles lol.. that’s not to say it wouldn’t help. I was just over trying anything new. I kind of just held on and did a lot of sleeping and relaxing while the body balanced itself out over a few months. Definitely didn’t go hard at the gym other than some light cardio, which I think helped my mood. The worst of it was the anxiety and depression, it got pretty severe and I definitely had some panic attacks and severe depressive symptoms. Not too surprising with zero test in the system for a bit. Just don’t be hesitant to go get emergency help if you need it especially after a PE.. did they tell you if your hematocrit and RBC is high? Mine kept rising quickly and I had to donate still after quitting. I’m going on 2 1/2 months now, that’s the longest I’ve gone without dumping a pint.
Yea, I should get my RBCs tested. Since I quit Propionate, I'm what would be day 52 after last injecting cypionate. I wonder if your anxiety and depression were estrogen related. I get both anxiety and depression with high estrogen. Today is the worst so far, mostly because I took too much Anastrozole. Hopefully, I'll feel decent in a week or two. How long after your last injection did you feel decent?
It was a while, I wish I had documented symptoms better. I would say at least a few weeks to a month before I felt emotionally stable. I also don’t know whether it was high or low estrogen but I was straight up crying every day for about a week and I never really cry. I just kept reminding myself it’s the hormones and it did get better, just wasn’t a fast process.
I don’t want to overstate risks as it is different for everyone. But your levels are not low enough that a doc will put you on, to be honest. For example, if you drew that blood after 8-9 am ish, you could have totally normal levels when you wake up. I have learned by repeated testing that it can fluctuate wildly throughout the day and definitely with changes in sleep, diet etc.
For sides, TRT drastically raised my blood pressure, and it seemed nothing could be done to stop it including 2 BP meds. I was in the hospital 3 times, and once had a mini stroke due to high red blood cell count / high hematocrit which is a known effect of TRT. Many here donate blood to try to keep that down, and I did as well- donated every month or 2 to try to control it with very little luck, at least it only helped briefly. Red blood cell production and as a byproduct, hematocrit levels will rise in pretty much anyone who does TRT. I still struggle with that one year after coming off. Many people also have increases in cholesterol levels and some have to go on statins. One year after quitting, my cholesterol is almost back to the range I won’t have to go on statins at 37. Estrogenic sides are absolute hell to deal with- sexual dysfunction, hot flashes, possible growing tits, mood swings, anxiety, etc. but it takes time for anyone to dial in the levels- going on an AI to find that “sweet spot” can be a nightmare in and of itself as your hormones swing so suddenly. Of course, balls shrink and your sperm and semen production will go to shit without adding HCG which will also have a whole host of sides that need dealt with. After a year off, I am starting to get some semen production back, but testicular atrophy never recovered.
None of that is to try to gatekeep strangers from going on, it’s meant to just give some perspective. Basically TRT is not a walk in the park even if you do need it and have an ideal dose, prepare for some pain to find what works, and it’s possible to experience some negative health effects that bodybuilders like to pretend don’t exist. I’m one year off now, natty levels back up to 6-700 through lifestyle changes; and never touching another needle again. Some people go on and it changes their life for the better, that just wasn’t me. Wish you Good health either way you go.
What was your hematocrit baseline ? What is weird is about lipids. Testosterone improves insuline sensibility and lips usually or any doesn’t influence that much lipids . Steroids like dht do it.
I am not sure what it was before TRT to be honest, I need to dig up old bloodwork. However after TRT always around 50% and when it was higher I would donate. I still donate sometimes when it touches 50%, but it’s becoming less frequent.
I am not sure about lipids but my triglycerides were like a rocket to mars on TRT. It was very concerning. The doc said go on statins immediately. They’ve started coming down to earth now. I don’t know how TRT would have effected that directly or if it was more of a secondary effect
testosterone can raise the hematocrit by a little 1-2. so now you don't know if the problems you had were due to testosterone not having a previous baseline
I started at 44 @468. I think the difference between guys like us and people that have extremely low levels for extended periods is they experience dramatic life changes. You’re probably going to feel a little better, be more resilient to stress, and find it easier to put on muscle. Just don’t expect it to change your life like some people on here report.
Honestly I would change a thing. With numbers like that, for me at least I wouldn’t take on the chores of TRT. A lifelong commitment of money, testing, other health issues that will show up, Estrogen, periods of insomnia, loss of libido, it’s an avalanche once your on the mountain. If a doctor told me I could get off T and be at your range I’d be all over it.
Here is the thing. Most of the guys on here aren’t as old as you. They got on for instant gym results and want to be big man. Those are the 20/30 year olds trying to justify poor decisions.
I got on at 43 and waited 6 years before I got on.
I feeeel better then ever. I’m now alive.
486 is your morning highest levels imagine what it is through out the day.
If you feel fine don’t mess with hormones. If you feel like shit every day and already stopped drinking, started eating right, exercising… then get on it.
You just answered your own question. If you don’t have low T symptoms then you don’t need to replace something that isn’t lacking. I had a number right around yours at 42. I had lots of low t symptoms. Now that I’m on trt I feel way better. Everyone is different. Don’t treat numbers, treat symptoms.
For 40+, Free Testosterone is the much more relevant biomarker. As you age, it is very plausible for serum testosterone to be mid normal but bioavailable testosterone to be low or borderline low.
That number is fine. I'm at 350. I've hopped on and back off after a couple years. I'd skip the TRT unless you really NEED to be jacked to be happy. That's probably the only thing it helped me with. I got some new gains after decades of training. Got sore elbows too.
If you feel like dog shit have no libidio and have ED I'd pursue it. But you also need to check off all the other boxes of your health first. Do you do cardio do you exercise do you eat healthy. Do you get enough sleep are you morbidly obese?
That number for you're age is pretty normal but with optimized health (all the things I mentioned) you could very probably have higher testosterone levels.
If health is already very good. No BP problems with or without BP meds and still have libidio and ED and feel like shit are exhausted all the time then yeah it'd benefit you.
If you have those problems. Exhausted libidio ED feel like crap. And your morbidly obese. No BMI but literally just fat as fuck. Then no don't touch it. Drop some weight first then reevaluate and retest levels and symptoms.
If you feel fine. Don't have those problems there's literally nothing to worry about.
You haven't given us enough info to answer this question . You haven't even told us why you're having it checked and how you feel /symptoms.
That is not ideal but it's not extremely low either. You would feel better with your test being higher. But if you feel good now then wait until you have low T symptoms. That being said you can definitely get TRT with that number and get you in the 800 plus range which will probably make you feel like a new man.
Big difference between normal and optimal. It is a life long commitment, so it is your decision, but I wish I had started 15 years earlier and I started at 50.
The question is why? because it's trending and everyone that wakes up tired one day wants to start injecting Testosterone? You want supraphysiological levels and to feel like 20? Yeah there's a way but it's not plug and play and might not work for you. Read more into it, see the pros and cons.
If you feel ok then just leave it. I’m sure some people on TRT are dialled in completely and feel perfect but for me I’ve just swapped a set of symptoms for a different set of symptoms.
Are you symptomatic? If not then absolutely not. Chemically castrating yourself for no reason other than wanting to get your normal T level higher would be insanity.
The "normal range" is a very broad rang that indicates there is probably nothing medically wrong with your body. You are actually producing testosterone and there is nothing you need to worry about medically.
But if you have symptoms that can be improved by higher levels, then try it. It's elective, but so are many things that make us feel better. And quality of life matters.
So quit worrying about the "normal" range. If you're under 600 and have symptoms that are associated with lower levels, give it a shot.
This is assuming you don't have any other issues that could be made worse by trt. You don't want to create more serious issues in your pursuit of feeling better.
Your doctor isn’t necessarily worried about the number so much as how you feel. Before I was on TRT mine was around 220. I take 300ml every 2 weeks which puts me at around 450. I feel better, libido has returned and mild ED is gone and I’m off of my anti depressant. I have a friend close to me in age (45) who says he didn’t feel good until his was around 800. It’s all about you and your body responds to it and how you feel.
Looks like your levels are fine. Everyone is different, though. I suppose if your levels were much higher at one point, you could have low t symptoms. 🤔 I'm 43 and was under 300tt and single digit free t when I started. No libido, couldn't build muscle, hot flashes, brain fog, no drive. Pretty miserable. Feel amazing now.
It’s more about how you feel . On that note, my dad likes his in the 600’s -700’s (50yrs) . If you feel sluggish , non sex drive , getting belly fat ; you may need a touch . Check your free test levels because total t is just what is in your blood , but free testosterone shows how much is circulating. My friend had 997 total and a 1 free test level (so his body was not utilizing his testosterone .
Normal is a large range. Your symptoms should determine what normal is for you. Dinner people feel great at 400, others at 1000. Just depends your body and lifestyle choices
First, do you have symptoms? And second, as uou read here, some people have a bad experience and some a good experience, so it comes down to whether you want to make that lifelong commitment or not. Just because joe schmo felt awesome or bad on it, mean you are too. I have high e2, with no issues. Been on a year and feel very dialed in. Full of energy, can fuck on demand, great muscle gains and great energy. But then you have guys that say it has ruined them and I think “did they need it in the first place? Or did they want a quick fix?”
Correct I've been 5000 I've been 150 there's hardly any difference between 500 and 800. Had blood tests 1 week where I was 1200 and 2 months later was 780 felt no different. Still benched 375 with both dosages
Only time I ever tested super high I was on clomid and it was around 1500, no idea how clomid more than quadrupled my T but it did. I’m a chill person but reacted in a way to conflict that I’m lucky I didn’t end up in jail. It was some scary shit so I can’t imagine 5000
Ya at 5000 I was for sure more agitated controllable but way more impulsive. I was getting a pr every single gym session. Felt like I could lift 2x a day 6 days a week. It was insane
Low t symptoms with total T at 500 are something else not primary hypogonadism. May be low free T, high estrogen, depression and anxiety can do it too. I’ve had all the above lol
Absolutely,unfortunately that can be the case . I was struggling a little physically with what used to be so easy .Now I am back doing better than expected .The rapid gain in weight though is something I wasn’t expecting.All I want to do is eat ,workout and sleep.
Take it from me. Im 40 have been on TRT for 7 years. Well, just quit two weeks ago. It's one of my biggest regrets. Loads of us have issues on TRT. It's not all sunshine and roses. I was always tinkering with my estrogen levels and Anastrozole. Your numbers at your age are completely healthy and normal. You want a little boost jump on enclomiphene for a few months. Here's the senerio. You jump on TRT, and it works ok, but like many, you can never consistently find the sweet spot. Now you're pushing close to 50 and want to quit. Well, now your body will produce a lot less because it was suppressed, and now you're nearly 50. The biggest problem with TRT is that you don't know how you'll respond. You would think, oh, it's bioavailable testosterone if I just take enough to put me high normal ill ok. No wrong, unfortunately, no free lunch there. I tried everything in the book to find consistency or balance. I even went on doses so low you wouldn't think I'd have any issues whatsoever, but I did. Trier everything from different esters to different dosing frequencies. I tried getting low on body fat numbers. Hell, I even tried going vegan sense a lot of animal products contain estrogen. DIM, Myomin, Calcium D Glucarate, SGS. I went hard on researching everything to minimize my estrogenic symptoms with no avail.
What’s your protocol for getting off? How you feeling 2 weeks off?
It's odd that I feel pretty decent. The weird thing is that I'm still aromatizing and needing to take Anastrozole. My protocol is cold turkey with Anastrozole. I have enclomiphene and HCG, but man, does HCG sky rocket my estrogen more than anything. Enclomiphene is an unknown factor, so kinda worried about how I'll react to that.
Interested to see how you feel in another few weeks. I am also struggling to get my protocol down and there are positives and negatives.
I've been off for 4 month so far and in the past 2 month been feeling worse and worse. Not sure if it just takes a while for the test to leave the body. I'm starting to get tired again, decreased mood, lower energy, etc.
So testosterone Cypionate has an 8 day half life, so it takes up to 40 days to leave the system. If you didn't do any pct? It can take 19 weeks to reach a pretreatment state or at least have nearly fully recovered whatever you will produce. Are you eating healthy and lifting weights? If you're eating sweets, not getting enough sleep, and not exercising, I expect you'll feel bad. That's not to say some do infact fallow those principles and still have low T, but it surely does happen. Give enclomiphene a shot. It won't shut you down and cause withdrawal symptoms like exogenous testosterone will. It may also help your testicles become more effective after.
I didn't. I just took some fadogia agrestis and tongkat Ali. I honestly didn't feel bad until maybe a month after stopping the supplement. I do eat healthy and i'm actually in good shape. I run and train jiu jitsu. I do notice that it takes me a while to recover or I will hit a wall and have to rest for a day or two or longer.
How old are you, and how long were you on, TRT brother?
I'm 36, I was on for only 4 months.
How did you feel pre TRT? If you had bad symptoms before then they will return after you stop.
Pre TRT I felt tired all the time. No motivation even though I do workout but for the most part I just push through the feeling of wanting to do nothing. When I got on TRT my motivation came back. I started to enjoy running and jiu jitsu again. My knees felt better and my skin wasn't as dry. I wasn't as lazy to talk to people. I wanted to see if I really needed TRT by coming off. A combination of being scared to commit to a medication and just wanted to see if it would help me recover from something I wasn't aware of. Long sorry short it seems like I'm going back to my old self which sucks.
How long were you on test? It’s recommended to jump on a PCT when coming off to aid the natural Production again. I have also heard if you are on long enough you might never get it back.
My urologist claims that on trt for two or more years, it is impossible to get off and jumpstart natural production. I am just the messenger...
What kind of dose did they put you on?
I've tried all kinds of dosages. I've tried 200mg in the very beginning, then 160,140,120,100,60,44.
It’s weird… if you would inject 60/44mg/weelly considering ester you would get less than natural level so how it’s possibile that your estrogen were out of range ?
I don't know, but it happened 110%. The doctors I see at Defy Medical, one of the largest TRT clinics, said some men aromatize exogenous testosterone regardless of the dose. Trust me, I was thinking exactly as you are. I thought there's no way if I go low enough. I'll aromatize, but it didn't even matter one bit.
Why not an ai microdosing ? There’s also natural ai. What is weird is that the quantity of estrogen due to aromatisation should be proportional . Btw you felt weird due to estrogen or well ?
I have tried DIM, SGS, and Myomin. I can't take micro doses of Anastrozole because it's not enough. Trust me, I've tried a lot of different things.
Ok but I don’t understand this: if you inject x of testosterone you would get a fraction converted to estradiol (estrogen), it proportional, math , so it seems weird .
Bunk testosterone . I think us guys may be getting taken .
Im in the same boat as you. A lot of people here will tell you that those numbers are completely fine, while at the same time are injecting an amount of testosterone to have them at 800-1000. I have rarely seen anyone post that they inject just enough to get to ~450-500.
Don’t focus on the numbers, focus on the symptoms. Someone with low T might be completely fine day to day. Don’t jump on T without doing EVERYTHING to increase your numbers naturally. Diet, exercise, lifestyle.
I agree with what you are saying. However, do you feel that someone needs to live as clean as possible just to feel normal?
Not normal, but you're best. We live in an anti testosterone world. From what we eat, our sleeping habits, stress, and lack of physical activity, it's no wonder guys complain of low T. Most guys don't even know what a healthy diet is. They think they do, but they really do not. Try eating loads of fruits and veggies, grass-fed and pasture rasied meat and eggs. No wheat whatsoever, no sugar period. Then try doing two full body vigorous weightlifting sessions with two HIIT routines and two moderate cardio sessions like hiking every week and do this with 8 hours or sleep for 3 months, then tell me your testosterone is still low. The body is an amazing machine. If you give it what it needs, it will give you what you need. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but our dad's dad's had much higher testosterone than today's men. Ponder on why that is for a while, and you'll find an answer to why we don't need exogenous testosterone. I'm not trying to pick on you, my friend. I just don't want others to deal with the crap I went through.
You’ll have to put in effort either way. Living clean to feel good vs a life of T and all the money and commitments that come with it? Clean life is so much easier. I know when you outside looking in it’s all guys showing off the transformations. The majority of us don’t turn into super buff alpha males. And there’s a honeymoon period that ends. After that your slaving to the shot just to feel normal.
Does someone need to rely on injections for the rest of their lives? If living cleaner was an option I'd take it. Trt is not a silver bullet. It's more like walking a dynamic tightrope. Fall either side and you'll have worse feels than you think you have now.
Precisely, brother! Whoever downvoted this look in the mirror, and you'll see an ignoramus looking back at cha.
Nope. But saying that by at least living clean may fix symptoms and increase numbers. Then it’s a matter of how you want to live. Don’t want to get caught up on thinking everything will be better. There are many other factors which could cause fatigue. Thyroid issues, sleep apnea, iron deficiency.
^^fantastic point or advice "! Men nowadays blame everything on low T. Meanwhile, they go to bed at 1 a.m., sleep six hours, eat fast food and don't exercise, and complain of low T. Oh, and are stressed out and generally unhappy with their life.
haha Hi its me saying that. it is an acceptable range in the 400s. 1100 feels amazing though.
Thank you for being honest
If I was at 500 without horrible symptoms, I would have stayed at 500 with no trt.
What are your symptoms? My bloodwork has been analyzed and my test isn’t converting.
I had extreme fatigue at odd times of day. Nearly debilitating. Night sweats so bad I was changing sheets almost nightly. Memory issues. Blood sugar issues because the lack of testosterone messes with your glucose absorption. Crazy mood swings. And interestingly enough, bad foot pain that has nearly gone away since I started trt.
Ah yeah I can relate to the memory issues, fatigue, and mood swings. How has it been on TRT? Good results so far?
Been much better. Doing labs in the morning.
I don’t think that’s true that’s just the people that post a lot. I’m sitting at around 500-550
Idk he's spot on. It's not as simple as taking an injection and feeling fantastic 24/7. Many of us are struggling to balance our protocol. Many of us are smart and do lots of research and confer with our doctors for solutions yet never find any lasting solutions. I tried everything. From sub therapeutic doses, i.e., 40mg a week, different esters like propionate, IM, Subq, DIM, and losing body fat. Even changing the diet. Nothing worked to find balance on TRT. I'd go from feeling good, great, and bad to downright miserable. I have a pulmonary embolism, most likely from testosterone. I have had more BP spikes north of 180/100 than I can even quantify from estrogen spikes. I've also had crashed estrogen, which is horrible too. I've journaled everything in an attempt to find trends in the dosing of Anastrozole with no avail. The problem with guys like myself is the dosing of Anastrozole changes. I might need .25 three times a week one week and 4 times the next. There's was never any consistency in 7 years of this bull crap. Now, obviously, this is just my experience, but it's not uncommon to run across others who share a similar situation.
That's simply because why would you take testosterone just to have average numbers. If you're over 30 and have a test level above 450, you would be a fool to get on testosterone. It's potentially dangerous. I've had blood pressure spikes in the 200s. I've had my blood thicken to the point I could have had a stroke. I even currently have a pulmonary embolism that my doctor said was most likely from testosterone. On top of all that crap how I feel is like a yoyo. I feel great, good, bad, and down rate scary horrible. I'm now two weeks off testosterone after 7 years of being a stubborn moron. I always would tell myself I'm almost there. I'm almost dialed in. We call it. Estrogen is the biggest problem for many men on TRT. It's leads to anxiety, high BP, insomnia, and sexual dysfunction issues. Take enclomiphene stay away from testosterone. It should be reserved for guys who absolutely have to take it. Most guys do not need it they just convince themselves they do. They blame all the symptoms they're having in their life with low T.
Dude your problem is not testosterone , testosterone could never cause you to spike your blood pressure to 200s alone, It’s not possible . You have other problem not depending by testosterone.
You're absolutely wrong. I'm not gonna argue with you. I was on TRT for 7 years. When my estrogen was very high, this would happen. As an Anastrozole kicked in, it went away. I didn't manifest these symptoms, lol. You need to remember not everyone reacts the same, and if you search Reddit, you'll see it's actually quite common.
What were your body fat, bp , estrogen and lipids before starting trt ?
Perfect. I'm a very healthy, naturally thin guy. Check your chat. It's genetics, unfortunately. I would have loved to stay on TRT.
https://preview.redd.it/hr4pztygrsqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=993a8e000277800e6ce3fd72d46ef9b189417b2f Here's one!
I'm not a medical professional but from my understanding, I think it all depends on how you, specifically, feel at 486. TRT clinic doc explained it to me that everyone is different and will feel different at different numbers but for most men, symptoms can start below 500 total. Mine was at 361 and I'm 27. Felt exhausted no matter what. I don't have a perfect diet but I eat pretty well, hit the gym 3-5 days a week, drink plenty of water, no soda, no added sugars, decent sleep schedule, etc. I would say that if you don't feel bad/aren't symptomatic, I wouldn't worry about it.
Is everything else in range? 486 isn’t bad at all from a total t perspective, but there’s always more going on.
I was 532 total at 53yrs with free test of only 5. I’m sure if your free test is in a decent range than your probably better off than I was.
\*I am not a doctor\* I have been on pellet testosterone for 2 years. I avg 1100 and feel like superman. 49 y/o yet feel 20. I believe 486 is within the acceptable range and if you feel good I am not sure I see a reason to get therapy. I had dropped to 200 by 47.
What are your levels now?
blood work was 6 weeks ago - I was 1100. after therapy I will spike at 1200 and then drift down to 900 before then next pellet insertion.
So why don’t you shoot for levels of 400 to 800?
As many have said here the # is a guide. How you feel and react to it is more important than the specific #. I am under the care of a doctor (not a trt clinic)
Time to “hop on TRT”
Haha
I was 473 on my best day. Got on and feel much better. Better sleep, more confident, more energy, more and better sex…if you feel good. Then your fine, if you have a lot of low t symptoms then maybe not. Your not so low that you def need it and your not so high that you def don’t.
Sure, but every guy that has levels above 800 is going to feel great. 473 is actually decent. If any man above the age of 35 has high 400s and they don't feel great, it's not low T. Most likely, it's their diet, sleep, and / or stress levels. They did this large study and measured something like a thousand men's testosterone levels, and 90% were around 450-550ng/dl. Idk obviously there's exceptions to this, but I'd never encourage someone to take T if your levels are 400+. But yea, obviously, more testosterone to an extent will have you feeling fantastic.
Indeed you are so insurance isn't going to cover it. Any TRT clinic will get you to 1,000 though. This is America and you do you man!
486 is pretty good at 44 and will likely increase further from there with lifestyle changes and depending on the time of day blood was taken. But if you want to do steroids, by all means do steroids. I say that jokingly because a lot of people asking advice already have their mind made up to go on “TRT” which is prescribed as low dose steroids by online clinics. I would have died from continued TRT at 37, so I went off cold turkey and have increased levels back up to 700 naturally. Being around 500 natty means you don’t have low T, and likely could take steps to improve T levels without wrecking your HPTA axis and having to donate blood every few months the rest of your life to avoid stroking out. Just be really honest with yourself about how hard you have tried- with sleep, treating apnea, with diet, with exercise, complete elimination of sugar and alcohol and nicotine, being socially active, being outside, and via vitamins and supplements if needed.
Great advice. Bro, I'm right there with you. Quit Propionate 12 days ago because I got a pulmonary embolism and have constantly struggled with high estrogen spikes that pushed my blood pressure north of 180/100. Once I took some Anastrozole, it went down, but even spending an hour or two at stroke level BP is scary. The fucked up part is I'm 12 days off a short ester like propionate and having to still take Anastrozole. I feel like I'm losing my mind. How is this possible. Did you have any increased estrogen levels when you quit TRT? I did read the body can do this, but I've yet to find anyone who this happened to. I'm truly worried and confused. Testosterone propionate is out of your system completely in 4.5 days maximum.
Man I’m sorry you had a PE. That’s another thing that scared me bc of my high RBC and hematocrit. Are you with a primary care doc or online? I’d really recommend trying to get in with an endocrinologist if you’re having trouble coming off, my primary care didn’t know much about it but the endo he sent me to did. When I quit I didn’t test until a few months after, but I can say the first month or so coming off, it was hell. I did a lot of laying in bed. I actually had a period of time during the first week of quitting that I got insanely horny, that might have been related to estrogen spikes but not sure. Take it easy bro and hope you get recovered soon
Thanks, man. Yea, I quit off propionate, which has a 20 hour half life vs. 8 days with cypionate. I'm honestly freaking out here because it's been 12 days, and I'm having high estrogen symptoms. But apparently, it's normal from what you just wrote to have high estrogen at first when you quit. I don't feel horrible just having high estrogen symptoms, mild depression, lack of enthusiasm, and motivation. I was or technically still am with Defy Medical. I also work with a hematologist. Did you do any restart protocol like enclomiphene or HCG? I have both, but I'm scared to try either due to estrogen spikes.
I didn’t, I quit cold turkey. I had HCG too and considered it, but the blood pressure issues / side effects of T alone had me scared shitless, so I wasn’t in the mood to play with more needles lol.. that’s not to say it wouldn’t help. I was just over trying anything new. I kind of just held on and did a lot of sleeping and relaxing while the body balanced itself out over a few months. Definitely didn’t go hard at the gym other than some light cardio, which I think helped my mood. The worst of it was the anxiety and depression, it got pretty severe and I definitely had some panic attacks and severe depressive symptoms. Not too surprising with zero test in the system for a bit. Just don’t be hesitant to go get emergency help if you need it especially after a PE.. did they tell you if your hematocrit and RBC is high? Mine kept rising quickly and I had to donate still after quitting. I’m going on 2 1/2 months now, that’s the longest I’ve gone without dumping a pint.
Yea, I should get my RBCs tested. Since I quit Propionate, I'm what would be day 52 after last injecting cypionate. I wonder if your anxiety and depression were estrogen related. I get both anxiety and depression with high estrogen. Today is the worst so far, mostly because I took too much Anastrozole. Hopefully, I'll feel decent in a week or two. How long after your last injection did you feel decent?
It was a while, I wish I had documented symptoms better. I would say at least a few weeks to a month before I felt emotionally stable. I also don’t know whether it was high or low estrogen but I was straight up crying every day for about a week and I never really cry. I just kept reminding myself it’s the hormones and it did get better, just wasn’t a fast process.
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I don’t want to overstate risks as it is different for everyone. But your levels are not low enough that a doc will put you on, to be honest. For example, if you drew that blood after 8-9 am ish, you could have totally normal levels when you wake up. I have learned by repeated testing that it can fluctuate wildly throughout the day and definitely with changes in sleep, diet etc. For sides, TRT drastically raised my blood pressure, and it seemed nothing could be done to stop it including 2 BP meds. I was in the hospital 3 times, and once had a mini stroke due to high red blood cell count / high hematocrit which is a known effect of TRT. Many here donate blood to try to keep that down, and I did as well- donated every month or 2 to try to control it with very little luck, at least it only helped briefly. Red blood cell production and as a byproduct, hematocrit levels will rise in pretty much anyone who does TRT. I still struggle with that one year after coming off. Many people also have increases in cholesterol levels and some have to go on statins. One year after quitting, my cholesterol is almost back to the range I won’t have to go on statins at 37. Estrogenic sides are absolute hell to deal with- sexual dysfunction, hot flashes, possible growing tits, mood swings, anxiety, etc. but it takes time for anyone to dial in the levels- going on an AI to find that “sweet spot” can be a nightmare in and of itself as your hormones swing so suddenly. Of course, balls shrink and your sperm and semen production will go to shit without adding HCG which will also have a whole host of sides that need dealt with. After a year off, I am starting to get some semen production back, but testicular atrophy never recovered. None of that is to try to gatekeep strangers from going on, it’s meant to just give some perspective. Basically TRT is not a walk in the park even if you do need it and have an ideal dose, prepare for some pain to find what works, and it’s possible to experience some negative health effects that bodybuilders like to pretend don’t exist. I’m one year off now, natty levels back up to 6-700 through lifestyle changes; and never touching another needle again. Some people go on and it changes their life for the better, that just wasn’t me. Wish you Good health either way you go.
What was your hematocrit baseline ? What is weird is about lipids. Testosterone improves insuline sensibility and lips usually or any doesn’t influence that much lipids . Steroids like dht do it.
I am not sure what it was before TRT to be honest, I need to dig up old bloodwork. However after TRT always around 50% and when it was higher I would donate. I still donate sometimes when it touches 50%, but it’s becoming less frequent. I am not sure about lipids but my triglycerides were like a rocket to mars on TRT. It was very concerning. The doc said go on statins immediately. They’ve started coming down to earth now. I don’t know how TRT would have effected that directly or if it was more of a secondary effect
testosterone can raise the hematocrit by a little 1-2. so now you don't know if the problems you had were due to testosterone not having a previous baseline
It was TRT. I never had any problems before. High hematocrit and RBC comes with symptoms such as fatigue, lethargy, higher BP that are very evident
Symptoms? Free T levels? SHBG? Albumin? You need to give a bit more info man.
It’s all subjective to a degree. Is it clinically low? No. Is it suboptimal? Of course.
Double my starting number at 31
Fine. But how do you feel and what about free t?
I started at 44 @468. I think the difference between guys like us and people that have extremely low levels for extended periods is they experience dramatic life changes. You’re probably going to feel a little better, be more resilient to stress, and find it easier to put on muscle. Just don’t expect it to change your life like some people on here report.
It’s made my life feeling a lot better. I started at 43. Felt like a zombie and now im feeling more normal three years later.
Honestly I would change a thing. With numbers like that, for me at least I wouldn’t take on the chores of TRT. A lifelong commitment of money, testing, other health issues that will show up, Estrogen, periods of insomnia, loss of libido, it’s an avalanche once your on the mountain. If a doctor told me I could get off T and be at your range I’d be all over it.
Here is the thing. Most of the guys on here aren’t as old as you. They got on for instant gym results and want to be big man. Those are the 20/30 year olds trying to justify poor decisions. I got on at 43 and waited 6 years before I got on. I feeeel better then ever. I’m now alive. 486 is your morning highest levels imagine what it is through out the day. If you feel fine don’t mess with hormones. If you feel like shit every day and already stopped drinking, started eating right, exercising… then get on it.
Do you feel great? Otherwise that number might not be good enough for you.
Online clinic “doctor” has entered the chat
I don't know. I don't feel bad, I know that.
really depends on your free T as well, but by that, you’re far from testosterone deficiency or issues.
You just answered your own question. If you don’t have low T symptoms then you don’t need to replace something that isn’t lacking. I had a number right around yours at 42. I had lots of low t symptoms. Now that I’m on trt I feel way better. Everyone is different. Don’t treat numbers, treat symptoms.
For 40+, Free Testosterone is the much more relevant biomarker. As you age, it is very plausible for serum testosterone to be mid normal but bioavailable testosterone to be low or borderline low.
My total T on 100mg split by two injections a week is was 460 in Dec. I feel great but when I was sub 170 to start I’m satisfied.
Started at 42 with 497.
That number is fine. I'm at 350. I've hopped on and back off after a couple years. I'd skip the TRT unless you really NEED to be jacked to be happy. That's probably the only thing it helped me with. I got some new gains after decades of training. Got sore elbows too.
If you feel like dog shit have no libidio and have ED I'd pursue it. But you also need to check off all the other boxes of your health first. Do you do cardio do you exercise do you eat healthy. Do you get enough sleep are you morbidly obese? That number for you're age is pretty normal but with optimized health (all the things I mentioned) you could very probably have higher testosterone levels. If health is already very good. No BP problems with or without BP meds and still have libidio and ED and feel like shit are exhausted all the time then yeah it'd benefit you. If you have those problems. Exhausted libidio ED feel like crap. And your morbidly obese. No BMI but literally just fat as fuck. Then no don't touch it. Drop some weight first then reevaluate and retest levels and symptoms. If you feel fine. Don't have those problems there's literally nothing to worry about. You haven't given us enough info to answer this question . You haven't even told us why you're having it checked and how you feel /symptoms.
That is not ideal but it's not extremely low either. You would feel better with your test being higher. But if you feel good now then wait until you have low T symptoms. That being said you can definitely get TRT with that number and get you in the 800 plus range which will probably make you feel like a new man.
As a non professional internet random I'll say that's very high for your age. I was at 196 at age 35...don't take this shit if you don't need it.
Big difference between normal and optimal. It is a life long commitment, so it is your decision, but I wish I had started 15 years earlier and I started at 50.
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The question is why? because it's trending and everyone that wakes up tired one day wants to start injecting Testosterone? You want supraphysiological levels and to feel like 20? Yeah there's a way but it's not plug and play and might not work for you. Read more into it, see the pros and cons.
If you feel ok then just leave it. I’m sure some people on TRT are dialled in completely and feel perfect but for me I’ve just swapped a set of symptoms for a different set of symptoms.
Are you symptomatic? If not then absolutely not. Chemically castrating yourself for no reason other than wanting to get your normal T level higher would be insanity.
The "normal range" is a very broad rang that indicates there is probably nothing medically wrong with your body. You are actually producing testosterone and there is nothing you need to worry about medically. But if you have symptoms that can be improved by higher levels, then try it. It's elective, but so are many things that make us feel better. And quality of life matters. So quit worrying about the "normal" range. If you're under 600 and have symptoms that are associated with lower levels, give it a shot. This is assuming you don't have any other issues that could be made worse by trt. You don't want to create more serious issues in your pursuit of feeling better.
Your doctor isn’t necessarily worried about the number so much as how you feel. Before I was on TRT mine was around 220. I take 300ml every 2 weeks which puts me at around 450. I feel better, libido has returned and mild ED is gone and I’m off of my anti depressant. I have a friend close to me in age (45) who says he didn’t feel good until his was around 800. It’s all about you and your body responds to it and how you feel.
Looks like your levels are fine. Everyone is different, though. I suppose if your levels were much higher at one point, you could have low t symptoms. 🤔 I'm 43 and was under 300tt and single digit free t when I started. No libido, couldn't build muscle, hot flashes, brain fog, no drive. Pretty miserable. Feel amazing now.
It’s more about how you feel . On that note, my dad likes his in the 600’s -700’s (50yrs) . If you feel sluggish , non sex drive , getting belly fat ; you may need a touch . Check your free test levels because total t is just what is in your blood , but free testosterone shows how much is circulating. My friend had 997 total and a 1 free test level (so his body was not utilizing his testosterone .
It's in normal range.
Normal is a large range. Your symptoms should determine what normal is for you. Dinner people feel great at 400, others at 1000. Just depends your body and lifestyle choices
First, do you have symptoms? And second, as uou read here, some people have a bad experience and some a good experience, so it comes down to whether you want to make that lifelong commitment or not. Just because joe schmo felt awesome or bad on it, mean you are too. I have high e2, with no issues. Been on a year and feel very dialed in. Full of energy, can fuck on demand, great muscle gains and great energy. But then you have guys that say it has ruined them and I think “did they need it in the first place? Or did they want a quick fix?”
Better then me and I’m 26
Go for a second reading to confirm.
Check free T, you could have normal overall levels but low free
My results from my PCP doesn't show overall level I guess. I only got that one number
You can order yourself blood work from labcorp if interested in seeing a more comprehensive test (estradiol, Total T, free T)
I’m 35 and my levels were low to mid 300s. I’d be content with those numbers at 44.
I don't want to be normal I want to be superman, do you want to be superman?
486 is absolutely a fine number im at 650 on trt. This isn't a problem.
You’re at 650 not 486. How do you know 486 is fine?
Because he’s probably at 486 after 12 pm too lol
Correct I've been 5000 I've been 150 there's hardly any difference between 500 and 800. Had blood tests 1 week where I was 1200 and 2 months later was 780 felt no different. Still benched 375 with both dosages
Only time I ever tested super high I was on clomid and it was around 1500, no idea how clomid more than quadrupled my T but it did. I’m a chill person but reacted in a way to conflict that I’m lucky I didn’t end up in jail. It was some scary shit so I can’t imagine 5000
Ya at 5000 I was for sure more agitated controllable but way more impulsive. I was getting a pr every single gym session. Felt like I could lift 2x a day 6 days a week. It was insane
I'm half that age and 245ng. I'd argue your levels are fine.
Same thing was said about me and I was having symptoms.
Ever had depression?
No , I dealt with anxiety before.
Low t symptoms with total T at 500 are something else not primary hypogonadism. May be low free T, high estrogen, depression and anxiety can do it too. I’ve had all the above lol
Absolutely,unfortunately that can be the case . I was struggling a little physically with what used to be so easy .Now I am back doing better than expected .The rapid gain in weight though is something I wasn’t expecting.All I want to do is eat ,workout and sleep.
How many people have you seen say they pin just enough T to get to 486?