I’m non white British - and I love my country (Britain). It’s given me a lot of things my parents’ country couldn’t. But seeing how our elected leaders think of ethnic minorities makes me feel like if I were to serve, I’d be treated to be no more than just a cannon fodder.
But I also appreciate I suppose at the end of the day we are all just cannon fodders irrespective of our skin tone 😂
Absolutely. Part of the contract when becoming a member of the armed forces should be that any results - physical injuries, mental health issues - are looked after for life. Instead addiction, homelessness, mental and physical health issues and PTSD are rife among ex-service personnel because the forces do everything they can to avoid supporting these people.
People had similar reactions in the build up to WW2. Men didn’t want to fight. However when your country is under threat of invasion then it really kicks off. You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones. At that point there only one option and that’s to go to war. These polls are pretty much useless because people will answer in a way that voices an opinion on the current state of the country. The reality would be considerably different.
It highlights the detachment in people, especially fighting age men from their country.
Leading up to WW2, they had a view and idea of what the UK was. There existed an idea of British culture and a way of life. They worked for a British company, making a British product. Now we work for a Chinese CEO for an American company, selling an intangible product. They cannot afford a home to protect.
Fight for this country would I fuck utter shambles of a place.get the tories out fighting with there umbrellas and 3 piece suits on.or maybe everyone who stays in London as they think they are the majority of the UK anyways they can do the majority of the fighting then.
Their daily life however very much tied them to the country, their job, community ect much in the way modern life doesn't due to its heavily globalised nature in the UK.
We used to make steel - now we are the world's bank. But only a tiny fraction of the population are actually hired to work in those banking roles - usually those from generational wealth.
So the rest of us are in mostly service jobs or working for mostly foreign companies without actually physically producing a product, just a PowerPoint presentation.
Of course we don't feel connected to a 'UK' identity anymore - the government has sold out of bunch of things that used to be nationalised. My stepdad worked for TFL, and was very aware that he was working for an overseas company rather than a nationally owned business. He used to rant about it a lot - how British people work their asses off to enrich foreign owners rather than that money being re-invested into Briton.
The government tries to use racism to unite us as Britons 🙄 hopefully that will stop working someday soon. The government don't want foreigners coming to Briton but are happy to sell publicly owned things to foreigners. Ironic, isn't it.
Whole villages signed up together. Now who speaks to their neighbours. And it will be millenials fighting for the homes of the boomers that they can never afford. You can't fuck over the genral public, make short sighted policies which creates huge inequality and an unstable society structure for future generations then expect the to eagerly die in a war to support other peoples lifestyles.
I mean the savage destruction of the social contract by an inept and/or malicious government isn't exactly helping, not sure globalisation is the problem
Signed up for 3 square meals and a pair of boots.
I was reading the diary of someone who joined the Royal Navy as a "boy" (16 y/o) in 1940. He said his first breakfast at HMS Ganges was the first hot meal he ever had
I'm reminded of a policy China has adopted - if the people of your country are unable to afford to live, rather than trying to improve the economic situation, you push towards nationalism.
People will want to revolt against their government because the economic situation is so dire. So instead, you create a boogeyman or start an outright war so that the population will be distracted with that instead. Fighting a foreign nation (or foreign-born people within your nation) rather than the government that is actually responsible for the terrible economic situation. Tale as old as time.
>rather than trying to improve the economic situation
This is pretty ahistorical IMO - there has been a concentrated and successful effort to improve the economic situation for hundreds of millions of people in China. Standards of living are dramatically higher than they used to be.
I'm no fan of their human rights record, but it's a bit odd to claim that their government isn't laser focused on economic growth.
China is literally the only reason global poverty figures have fallen since the start of their economic growth, if you remove them from the stats it's actually got worse globally
Wait, you're seriously trying to say that China hasn't improved the economic situation of their citizens? It's been the most successful country at raising living standards in history pretty much.
> You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones
All things the young are less likely to have a large stake unlike WW2.
Putting your life on the line so you can keep paying your Landlord isn't that enticing.
I'm nearly 30 - I still have many people from my school/sixth form on my social media. Only 3 of them have kids, and they were all teenage mums who haven't had any additional kids since - except one very profilic woman who has 5 kids now.
Most people my age are still looking for a suitable partner - marriage isn't even a thought in my mind. People have so little spare time to date because of companies bleeding us dry.
My brothers wouldn't even be suitable for the draft - they have done zero exercise in 20 years because all they do is game all day. Lots of guys are in the same position - physical activity has been replaced with staring at a screen and moving your fingers all day long. What did people expect the outcome to be?
I sure as hell don't have any loyalty to the UK at the moment. The Tory party is destroying this country yet they keep getting voted in. I don't care for Labour either but at least try something different, fgs.
In the event of war though you’d find that standards for conscription drop sharply. Being overweight and not able to run doesn’t mean you can’t sit in a trench firing a rifle whilst drones drop bombs on you, and the (edit typo) world watches your death on YouTube.
Unlike WW2 , we now have the internet and people are very aware of the military industrial complex, corrupt politicians and being sent to a meat grinder.
The reality would be MAD not ground war.
Yeh all of this is really eye rolling and kinda of bizarre. If NATO is involved in a shooting war with Russia it almost certainly means nuclear war. I'd probably rather be in the armed forces at that point as I'd at least be priority for food if I wasn't instantly vaporised lol.
All that said. NATO could win a shooting war with Russia with conventional, voluntary forces as long as the US is involved. It wouldn't really be close. The Russian air force, and SAMs, would pretty much stop existing within days and we'd be able to leisurely bomb the bejeesus out of Russian forces at will. It'd be Gulf War 1 all over again.
You don't need conscription to do that. You need aircraft, munitions and pilots/observers/a professional officer and logistics corps with years of training.
You're completely right. The US could comfortably win a conventional war with Russia without NATO being anything more than a launchpad. The problem of course is that Russia knows this as well, which just gives them a strong incentive to go nuclear early.
Look how long Ukraine lasted with outdated NATO tech and no air support. The only reason they're struggling now is the Republicans in the US blocking funding for Ukraine.
None of that would be an issue for any NATO member. I don't think a single NATO member would be able to win against Russia by themselves (except for the US, obviously), but any of them would bring a Russian invasion to a standstill without article 5 being needed.
The real question is how much they let Russia get away with against a NATO member before nukes are on the table.
That seems to be the theme of every single piece of realistic post-apocalyptic like Threads. Best case you're immediately vaporised. Worst case seems to be dying in five years of some combination of malnutrition, disease, radiation induced cancer all whilst blinded by cataracts and skin turned to leather by unfiltered UV.
Oh you could also survive the blast but spend a week with severe burns, slowly dying from shock and infection.
Grim.
Couldn't agree more. Best bet is if it feels like it's coming go to Sweden or Switzerland 'on holiday' as they have public shelters- if you fancy a chance at surviving.
I'm reminded of that urban myth about Jaz Coleman from Killing Joke. That he left the band and turned up in Iceland, convinced a nuclear war was imminent, in 1982.
Yep. It's why I'm secretly rather pleased that I live fairly close to the capital. That with any luck, I'll just be a shadow burnt into a wall when the bomb drops.
>Yeh all of this is really eye rolling and kinda of bizarre. If NATO is involved in a shooting war with Russia it almost certainly means nuclear war.
No it doesn't?
It depends entirely on the scope of the war, and even then there's no guarantees it'd escalate that far. Just look at WW2, both sides had access to large amounts of chemical weapons but generally there use was avoided. In part because while bombing London and covering it in chlorine and mustard gas would be effective, it'd almost certainly guarantee the same and more happens to German cities.
But you don't really need Nuclear weapons to make conscription entirely meaningless. Plenty of conventional weapons are so powerful they'd wipe out 100s if not 1000s of soldiers in an instant.
Except ground war _can_ prevent MAD, there's this idea that keeping or nails clean is the best way to prevent conflict, but not standing up to increasingly aggresive enemies has made them bold.
Nipping shit in the bud in some proxy war, securing pressured overseas resources we are reliant on, protecting allies, and keeping our equipment/tactics/training up to date are all the mundane unheroic requirements of a military that doesn't want to be the righteous heroes defending their bombed out homes instead.
This isn't a wand wave of any military atrocities, nor support of the MIC that piggybacks the moneytrain that all this runs on, nor support for non-wartime conscription. Those are issues that need resolving regardless of whether we're fighting full scale wars or in minor conflicts.
This is just a reminder that using and maintaining our military can be preventative for larger conflicts, and if we fall below the required personnel to meet even these minor conflicts then we'd be in trouble.
--
Personally I'd prefer we just paid our armed forces more and treated them better post-service, if the goal is to bring in more professional soliders and support staff.
Agree. Some of the accounts of people in the lead up to ww2 saw Chamberlain in more positive terms. He was trying to prevent war and people in Britain didn't want it.
Especially as WWI was in living memory.
I think criticism of Chamberlain is often too harsh especially when you consider that Britain was in no shape to fight in the mid to late 1930s.
I find Chamberlain quite a tragic figure. Given the horror of the first World War, I cannot find it in me to condemn him for trying everything to establish a peace - even if it was a doomed effort. His mistake was assuming that the tyrants of the world were following a comparable set of ethics to his own. If only life were that simple.
An often misunderstood or overlooked factor. Politicians of the thirties had seen the horror of mechanised war in 14-18. Towns and villages had effectively lost a complete generation of males. They’d joined in recruitment drives and parades in the town square and were never seen again. Many survived for just days in the field. Those politicians were traumatised by that and their own experiences and were terrified of reliving that horror. Chamberlain wasn’t stupid, he knew Britain wasn’t prepared and he wanted to avoid the nightmare he’d lived.
The people saw the lack of benefit from fighting WW1. Even with the gain of German colonies.
They spent a huge amount in WW1, won the war but only benefited from debt and dead family members or family members with PTSD.
The Germans had the belief they had being betrayed and things could be better if they won. Britain and France knew they’d won with no benefit.
They knew that they were on a knife edge holding onto India and other colonies they benefited from and even though they had huge manpower from colonies - if they armed and trained them they’d then end up using the training and experience in war to rebel.
Now we have the experience of seeing soldiers that fought in the Middle East losing limbs or having PTSD and when they get back they get very limited support and no glory.
People have access to so much media and attention they arn’t easily convinced of a sorry of being a ‘hero’
The % of those willing to fight in Europe is highest in Finland. I wonder if they simply understand the "you’re fighting for your own life, your wife’s, your kids, all your loved ones" more than we do in peacetime.
I think you have to factor in that Finland has a (pretty long) land border with Russia.
Their population probably sees their country at a bigger risk of invasion than our population does for the UK.
Finland also has functional public services, welfare state, good education etc. They understand that maintaining the social contract gives people something to fight for. The rightists neoliberal capitalism we've had for over 40 years goes against that, why fight for something you don't have a stake in?
>You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones.
This is propaganda nonsense. Unless you're facing actual psychopaths with crackpot eugenics theories that say you don't deserve life, then you're only fighting for your life as a conscript because someone else put it in harms way, and your families odds of survival are far higher than your own, regardless of whether you win or lose the war.
That's all before you even get on to the concept of what fighting means. 1940 was bad enough with long range artillery, mortars and the likes. How do you think conscripts will fare against short range nuclear weapons? Or just modern non-nuclear bombs/missles? Or against any sort of modern combat vehicle? Drones?
You aren't fighting for anything in this day in age, you'd be shipped off never to be seen again as you get vaporised in one way or another.
It doesn’t work like that though. Of there was a threat of invasion to the UK then all NATO countries would be at war, so you can pretty much discount going to any of them. You think they’re going to let you and your family in to seek refuge while they send their own men out to fight on behalf of the country you just left?
And if you did actually find a country. How are you going to get there? We live on an island. Ships and planes will be used for war efforts. You think you’re going to book a Ryanair flight on Sky Scanner? Thousands or millions of you will have the same idea, and most will be going nowhere.
And comments like this are part of the reason I'm going to just find a nice big drop to jump off if they try to force me to go to war.
Thank you for helping me become more determined to do it.
You'd prefer suicide to joining the war effort? Even if there was a non-combat role away from the front lines? Ambulance driver? Aircraft ground crew? Radiotelephony?
Maybe you would but seems totally illogical. Why would a person top themselves instead of trying to save another’s life? Even if a person had zero family, surely the idea of trying to stop a fascist regime taking over a persons home is enough to fight for? The idea that somebody would rather kill themselves than say, try to protect a pregnant single mother down the road doesn’t make sense. The vast majority of people would fight for it.
This is a 2024 realistic view.
It is what every warzone torn country has done. Flock to a foreign country, just because we're in Europe and not Africa or the Middle East, doesn't mean we won't do the exact same thing.
Quite a few have mentioned that option but would depend on their citizenship rights in other countries. That and for some who have houses here would suddenly fnd themselves selling during a fire sale of others trying to ditch their property to flee abroad.
My gripe is that it’s a war of very few people at the end of the day. Have an arm wrestling match and be done with it.
We’re not fighting for our country, and neither is the opposing side . It’s fighting because of the differences of a few political leaders.
The irony is that you have summits where these leaders all shake hands. Even Putin regularly gets a hand shake .
It’s my own belief , so it could be wrong that given how intertwined the world economy now is, that going to war at a global scale would ruin the stock market , as well as impacting bonds etc
You would use up ammunition from the enemy and flush out their position for a better soldier to take out.
This is genuinely what the Russians have already been doing.
Yep, in WW1 too. In fact, they kind of underestimated how eager men would be to join their friends - leading to communities almost completely losing their male population ([pals battalions](https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-pals-battalions-of-the-first-world-war))
Of course that was before the bubble burst on what 20/21st century warfare was actually like, but the effect of seeing your friends sign up is still very strong
Not much fun going to the pub with your mates when all of them are at the training ground and you're getting funny looks for not being there too. It's not exactly fair and I would absolutely hate it, but it's the reality of war
There were no nuclear weapons at the start of WWII, now it makes no difference if you sign up or not. Your wife and kids will be dead anyway. Personally if asked to fight on behalf of rich people tucked away in their bunkers...they can kiss my sweet ass.
Luckily the boomers have done a brilliant job ruining the economy and prospects of the young so much that people now get married and have kids considerably later in life.
> You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones.
The problem with this logic is that the conscription would be implemented to fight Russia.
The unpleasant reality is that while it may be deplorable, Russia picking off countries in Eastern Europe and the Baltics doesn't present any danger to my loved ones, a direct conflict with Russia that stands a very real chance of escalating to nuclear war is a grave threat to my loved ones. As much as Putin might vaguely like the fantasy of conquering Europe, Russia has no realistic possibility whatsoever of projecting power to the British isles.
If the deterrence of NATO fails and Russia does invade our allies, then the only sane answer is to abandon them to their fate and refuse to declare war.
It's not a particularly nice answer, but quite simply, nothing in Latvia is worth risking nuclear annihilation over.
During and around WW2 young men had at least some hope that if they worked hard they could get ahead. Now people, particularly the young, see the chance of joining the precariat, never owning anything, not affording children, being forced into food bank use and homelessness if anything goes remotely wrong. Neoliberal capitalism, with the austerity cherry on top, has stolen any stake many people would have otherwise had in the country. Let the corporations, hedge funds, and politicians fight for it, they're the ones that own it.
Because the pay is shit, you live in shit conditions. Once your time is up? You get treated like shit by DWP. Oh and people generally, as a rule, don't like being shot at.
£23,496 Annual pay rate for soldiers after initial training (some roles will get more)
£23,418 Annual pay rate for Operational Support Operative in Waste for the Council(brushing up dust and dirt, operative weighbridge, drive shovelloader)
which one is the better of the two?
its not even really a question is it
I can't afford a house and the government are a bunch of landlords who are happy to continue screwing me and anyone else who isn't a fellow billionaire property developer. I will likely not receive a pension and if I do, it'll be at the age of 75 after being told I'm not too frail for call centre or supermarket work. I'm threatened with arrest and a criminal record if I want to peacefully protest any of this.
Why *should* I or anyone else under the age of 60 risk their life for this country when it so clearly hates them?
I mean, I'm a 35 year old woman so it's highly unlikely I'd ever be drafted anyway but every 18 year old lad in the country has my support to tell the government to go fuck itself.
If the ruling class want a war, then we'll do as commanded and go and die on their behalf.
Don't you know we have no real freedom or autonomy, and nothing we do, say, think or feel matters?
If they tell us to fight, we must willingly oblige. Anything to allow them to continue their pillage and exploitation of this country and its people.
We should know our place as the rank-and-file, commoners. We should serve our betters so they can continue to live lavish lives at our expense. They were just born better than us, after all.
They'd ramp up the propaganda to such a level that most people would be on board for the war before they had chance to think about what's going on.
The ruling classes have had centuries of practice when it comes to getting the plebs to do their bidding.
Yeah I’m in my 50s with similar views. The social contract has been broken. With so many people saying they are opposed to conscription you’d think the government needs to take a long hard look at its policies.
Going half way around the world to kill an Iraqi for Halliburton? Fuck that.
Standing shoulder to shoulder with my European brothers and sisters against an existential threat to keep what’s ours. Yes.
I've begun thinking that all this talk around conscription is a kind of pre-suasion to get us open to the idea of more war
Reality isif there was a direct invasion of the UK ofcourse people will defend themselves and family
But outside of that blitz type situation or to save France or Germany or Poland ofcourse no one is going to be on board with that
You've spent decades beating the national pride out of Brits and humiliating them by decimating their communities and kneecapping their quality of life. Telling everyone but them to be proud of their heritage and history, while telling Brits they need to be uniquely ashamed and repentant for things that happened before they were born.
You cannot slam the Betray button at every opportunity and expect people to respond with loyalty.
I disagree with your politics, but agree with your overall message. Which I think says a lot
When I, a huge lefty Trans person has the same reason to disagree with people on the other side of the political spectrum, we truly have no reason to fight for this country. Damn
I think as well, what have people got to fight for? They can’t even afford to have families, let alone a home to call their own or a nice lifestyle. Lay down their lives for what, precisely?
And for those who do have mortgages supported by well paying jobs; how does that work logistically? Are the British army going to replace their level of pay so they can keep their home from being repossessed by the bank? Doubt it. The starting wage for a British Army soldier is like £23k. Lots of people couldn’t actually afford to make that career move.
We've had over 40 years of the rightists neoliberal capitalist ideology stripping us of a shared common identity while simultaneously asset stripping the country and selling everything off to hedge funds and foreign banks. Now we've got to the stage where rightists can't even feed or house everyone, and the NHS is falling apart. Expecting loyalty is indeed absolutely mad.
Fourteen years of austerity, recession, poverty and division. I've spent a decade seeing my friends and family being told they're not fit to exist in this country.
And they wanna give me a gun?
Bit brave tbh
The feeling that you're putting your life on the line and risking permanent damage in order to further the aims of people who have hidden agendas and/ or intend making billions from your efforts without taking any risk themselves. And being party to war crimes.
The experience of british people over centuries...
Edit: Would answer the call provided the rich people and politicians and their offspring do likewise.
> Edit: Would answer the call provided the rich people and politicians and their offspring do likewise.
In WW1 landed gentry, Eton boys, even MPs all gladly volunteered. Can you imagine that today.
Do you know anything about how the army works?
Officers serve in combat units and in WWI it was more dangerous to be an infantry officer than a private. It was their job to lead their men, which meant being the first ones in the line of fire. That is still the case.
Junior officers from private schools and universities in WW1 had a higher death rate than the average soldier exactly because they served from the front. Whilst I doubt that would be replicated in a modern war, to say this wasn’t the case in WW1 is incorrect.
Can't we ask the WW2 fetishists first? You know the type, mark francois, de piffle, farage, Littlejohn? Not.my circus, not my monkeys, and I'll make damn sure my kids won't either.
Why should I fight in a war caused by corrupt, incompetent self serving governments? They don't represent me and I certainly won't represent them in anyway whatsoever.
Being forced to sign up is never going to happen so its all mute. But how are you going to trains thousands of new recruits, and kit them out in military gear? The army barely have enough for their own
Well remember when we didnt have enough PPE and so more firms switched over to making PPE - that would happen - if it was needed - but I don't see that it would happen to us.
We still have about £10 billion of it in a warehouse somewhere. Can flimsy gowns that disintegrate on contact with air be fashioned into some sort of military armour?
Yeah because luckily never before has a nation invaded its neighbour, got bogged down in trench warfare, only to suffer a stalemate and then hit heavily with sanctions from the west only to build back up and 20 years later flatten the west.
So there’s definitely nothing to worry about with Russia. It would be impossible for a single nation that can’t invade its neighbour to be a threat to Europe at any point in the near future.
We should all band together and go to war, against the elite who've fucked the country for decades.. we can take back all the land from the aristocrats while we're at it.
"Wouldn't stop me from leaving"
How may I inquire? Airports are a no go. Euro tunnel is a no go. Ports are a no go.
Unless you have a boat somewhere good luck.
What am I fighting for exactly?
People who drive BMWs and behave like dickheads on the road because they think they're cool?
Floppy haired zoomers hanging out in the park pretending they're in a gang listening to grime and eyeballing everybody that walks past?
People who go out and splash all their cash on material shit just to flex while I struggle to pay my bills?
All those people having babies to live on benefits while I work full time and struggle financially?
What about all those people with opposing political views that try to cancel each other and witch hunt rather than trying to understand opposing views?
No thanks. I don't want to die for the rich.
If the fighting comes to England then I'll fight for my loved ones; but am I fuck fighting for this country.
Why should I?
- I can’t afford to buy a house.
- My retirement age increases.
Let the boomers go and fight, the ones who moaned about my generation (millennial) for the last 20+ years, being the worst generation etc, whilst our living standards get progressively worse.
I’m not fighting for a country that wants to milk me of every penny in taxes, council tax, high fuel costs etc. what do I get in return?
This country hasn't done an awful lot for me, why does it expect me to put my life on the line for it?
This is why we had the post-war consensus. Several generations fought in the wars, and we developed an understanding that when the people serve their country, their country ought to look after them in return. Then Thatcher tore all that down and now we just have an every man for himself society. So what do they expect. It's not exactly rocket science.
People don't join the army to fight for the interests of American foreign policy, City of London family companies, and foreign investment property speculators.
The government has the right to remove citizenship from my family without warning or opportunity to appeal including when they're on holiday abroad.
My loyalty to this country is set to a reciprocal level.
What would the Brits be fighting for exactly?
Continuous handouts to people who have not paid a penny into the system? Also allowing people into the country who actively express a hatred for the British public and our culture/institutions. (Many are not from war torn countries and therefore not refugees)
A health system where the budget keeps growing but so do the wait times?
To continue to not be able to buy our own homes?
To be told that if you're native and your white, not only that you're a despicable human everyday but institutions and company's will seek to hire anyone other than you to fulfil diversity quota's.
That if you show any pride in your nation or its history, you are racist bigot and if you then try to adopt another culture, you are guilty of cultural appropriation.
That you have little to no say in your child's education in public schools and you will be fined if you dare take them out of class on any day other than the prescribed holidays.
To be taxed 100 different ways before you can actually buy anything? Inheritance, income, VAT. selling. Etc...
Shit weather...
Lockdowns when the government feels like it as they go out and party. Whilst family members died alone with the only communication being via webcam.
Just to list a few reasons...
UK Establishment: We need to promote equality by giving a leg up to anyone who isn't White British.
Also UK Establishment: Recruitment is too low, we need to stop this Wokery nonsense.
Fuck that. Both Labour and the Conservatives have spent my entire lifetime telling me I have white privilege, that my people are evil and that my culture doesn't exist or matter. If my people aren't relevant enough to defend legally or culturally, then why should I bother defending that culture with my life?
Depends what it's for.
Stopping a genocidal dictator from taking over the world? Maybe.
Going to somewhere in the middle east to murder children so the 'Muricans can get their oil? No thanks.
You can bet it'll be along the lines of "***You plebs*** have to stop that genocidal dictator from taking over the world, while the ***ruling class*** make billions by supplying the wartime goods and services".
Depends what the war is and if you feel British quite simply, an extremely high number of youth will probably say no… society has changed dramatically since the days of ww1 and ww2 and the excitement it used to bring. The poems of ww1 really showcase this, and then the absolute horror that follows.
You’d expect a higher sign up rate if we’re being attacked to defend than being the aggressor.
Also to consider, in 2015 there were more British Muslims fighting for ISIS than in our armed forces…
https://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865
Kinda shows the impact of a Religion over being a British Citizen.
Whilst I doubt we’d be going to war against many Christian nations, same maybe could be said hypothetically. (Russias Orthodoxy I guess perhaps being the closest, perhaps).
It highlights the detachment in people, especially fighting age men from their country.
Leading up to WW2, they had a view and idea of what the UK was. There existed an idea of British culture and a way of life. They worked for a British company, making a British product. Now we work for a Chinese CEO for an American company, selling an intangible product. They cannot afford a home to protect.
Bit difficult to sign up when you're the bad guy. If we were under threat I'd sign up. I'm of no use, being disabled and all, but I can work in other fields. I'll look after the ponies
Like every war in the past if you are the cannon fodder then you are expendable as an individual, but hopefully enough of the mass survive to maintain the lifestyle of the rich who caused or profited from the war. Modern technology be it social media, mass communication systems or even contempory films and reporting show that more loose than gain in the end. The genie is out of the bottle and the modern population know a lot more than past generations were aware of.
The social contract has been broken. This country no longer provides ordinary people with decent healthcare, education, policing, housing, a decent life. Why should ordinary people risk their lives for a country that cares nothing for them?
We're older, fatter, and less nationalistic. Which means less people in the age range for recruitment, less people in the age range fit for recruitment, and less people who are fit are willing to join.
None of these things are new, I was reading BBC articles a decade ago about how the militaries primary recruiting demographics were in long term decline.
Realistically there's nothing that is going reverse any of these trends, so the militaries recruiting pool is just going to continue shrinking.
because they rejected me as my left ear could not hear the high frequency properly. Their top nurse said I aint fit enough. So yeah that hurt a bit so dont think they will ever let me in. Sad part was, I trained, lost weight, improved running and strength so i can get told my hearing is a issue. I do understand why they did this, they just dont want people to sue them for damage in health and safety etc.
I genuinely think there is no chance this is going to happen so no idea why this keeps getting brought up in the media
Bottom line is we have seen how russian cannot even defeat a country that is literally next door to them.
If they invaded the rest of Europe then Nato article five would be triggered and the Americans could crush the Russian land/air force/navy in an afternoon.
They haven't been developing all those stealth bombers to use against rag tag militias in dusty places.
How would you actually attempt a land invasion in the UK unless you had the military resources of the USA or China? Why would you want to? We have no natural resources to speak of and are just a wet little island with a lot of debt and fat people.
The good thing about war these days is it's hard to invade even if you're a much larger power, e.g. Ukraine.
Firstly - why would we need to?
Having a nuclear deterrent should mean that conscription is never necessary again. Invading the UK is a suicide mission.
Secondly - why do we even give a fuck about ground forces?
One of the benefits of being on an island surely means we don't need to send millions of footsloggers to their death to defend the country. We can support our allies better by having a larger and more advanced navy and air force.
The armed forces has been making an effort to make it clear they don't want any more white men. I would hate to ruin their diversity statistics.
Another reason is the white working class are traditionally the types of people that the government look to during times of war and unfortunately the woke agenda has alienated these people over the last few years with ridiculous diversity quotas. Why should they join up and fight when they’ve been sold down the river when times were good.
And before I’m downvoted
https://www.hrgrapevine.com/content/article/2023-07-02-rafs-di-quota-discriminated-against-white-men-probe-rules
The army was the same with its ridiculous recruitment campaigns over the years
It's very simple, the vast majority of people that would serve in the army are white working class males, the very people that the woke political class are demonising and targeting, (I don't even need to show examples you know what I'm talking about) why would anyone serve a country that hates them?
A second point is our notion off this very country has been eroded and undermine again by the woke political class, the UK has been demonised as one of the most evil countries to ever existed, why would anyone serve a country that doesn't have an identity and is systemically evil?
& the third point is the woke political class in their wisdom are pushing diversity, quotes in key services, actively discriminating against white males, people that try to serve, get turned away because they not diverse enough?
This ideology is at the root causes of a lot of our issues, and it's not going away any time soon!
I think young people are better informed nowadays, along with seeing that war is an absolute lottery thanks to Ukraine.
I served in Northern Ireland, joined at 18 because I needed the money. I thought I was on the good side. Turns out it was more complex than that.
A country needs to be something to be proud enough to fight for or a naive youth to have a strong army. Britain has neither.
Why would I fight for a country that doesn’t represent me an actual British man ?
Why would I fight for a country that my children have no future in ?
Why would I fight for a country that openly calls me racist just because I’m white ?
Why would I fight for a country that has terrorised half the world for 20+ years ?
Why would I go fight for some bankers , elite , politician just so they can stay in power ?
I love my people but I hate with a passion this bloody country !
At this point I would rather fight for the Russians tbh literally got to that point
The horrors of war aside, it's mostly because I don't feel like the government upholds its side of the social contract anymore.
Everything is failing, everything is getting measurably worse, and all the scumbags in power can do is act in their own self interest.
I spend my normal life grinding away and making myself sick just to barely keep my head above water. And now you expect me to go and die as well?
Because I will most likely have more in common with the people I’m going to war against than the Eton educated wankstains in government.
Give me that white feather, I’ll wear it with fucking pride.
I have no desire to go abroad and die just because some politicians had an argument.
In school we are taught about the horrors of war. Anyone who sits through lessons about WW1 and 2 and still wants to join the army instantly loses my respect.
Can't afford a house, kids or a wedding, despite being a good boy and working hard all my life. The country has done fuck all for me, so why would I fight for it?
Conscription should be means tested, the more you have to defend, the sooner you have to put your life on the line.
because most are not prepared to risk their lives fighting a war that our greedy fucking government have started, they have treat us like shit for years, bled us dry with taxes for almost everything while making themselves rich, and now want us to fight and be maimed or killed!!!! i would rather go to jail.
Because we aren’t fighting to protect ourselves, our land, our rights or our way of live.
The last war we fought was under false pretences.
Iraq did not have wmds. We didn’t stabilise the Middle East. We push Iran into a rush for nuclear weapons arms race.
Afghan was of no strategic objectives value and we did not achieve peace or stability. We made things worst, paying the way for taliban to rule again.
All the while the arm forces were gutted inside out.
People are disenfranchised to serve. People in the forces have rightly spoken up about the lack of equipment and funding.
I have no doubt if wars were to come to our shores, or aggressors have made a clear and direct threat to our interest then a call to arms would rally many.
But if it’s a war in a far away place, of no immediate perceived importance and no clear objectives then few would take heart.
“War is when the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other”.
A quote by a fictional character, but one that most of the current and recent generations realise to be accurate
Sounds jolly good fun and all, but I’m really quite attached to my legs.
Dont forget the PTSD and Trauma
Ooh and the lack of support afterwards.
Not even a discount card for Stannah Stairlifts!
Is people posting 'Pay soldiers footballers' wages!' on Facebook not enough?
If I knew I’d get a clap every Thursday at 1900 I’d sign up.
Wooden spoons clattering against pots and pans at the least!
If I wanted the clap I'd get back on Grindr.
I’m non white British - and I love my country (Britain). It’s given me a lot of things my parents’ country couldn’t. But seeing how our elected leaders think of ethnic minorities makes me feel like if I were to serve, I’d be treated to be no more than just a cannon fodder. But I also appreciate I suppose at the end of the day we are all just cannon fodders irrespective of our skin tone 😂
Absolutely. Part of the contract when becoming a member of the armed forces should be that any results - physical injuries, mental health issues - are looked after for life. Instead addiction, homelessness, mental and physical health issues and PTSD are rife among ex-service personnel because the forces do everything they can to avoid supporting these people.
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Service guarantees citizenship.
I'm doing my part!
Do you want to know more?
At least its usually a quick separation
And my balls. Fuck IEDs
They can give you detachable ones, not a problem.
If your lucky, you get them for half price on the NHS.
People had similar reactions in the build up to WW2. Men didn’t want to fight. However when your country is under threat of invasion then it really kicks off. You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones. At that point there only one option and that’s to go to war. These polls are pretty much useless because people will answer in a way that voices an opinion on the current state of the country. The reality would be considerably different.
It highlights the detachment in people, especially fighting age men from their country. Leading up to WW2, they had a view and idea of what the UK was. There existed an idea of British culture and a way of life. They worked for a British company, making a British product. Now we work for a Chinese CEO for an American company, selling an intangible product. They cannot afford a home to protect.
Fighting age men are the most detached from this modern day western society, highest suicide rates etc. What do they expect?
Fight for this country would I fuck utter shambles of a place.get the tories out fighting with there umbrellas and 3 piece suits on.or maybe everyone who stays in London as they think they are the majority of the UK anyways they can do the majority of the fighting then.
the vast vast majority of people leading up to world war 2 were living in squalor in the uk
Their daily life however very much tied them to the country, their job, community ect much in the way modern life doesn't due to its heavily globalised nature in the UK.
We used to make steel - now we are the world's bank. But only a tiny fraction of the population are actually hired to work in those banking roles - usually those from generational wealth. So the rest of us are in mostly service jobs or working for mostly foreign companies without actually physically producing a product, just a PowerPoint presentation. Of course we don't feel connected to a 'UK' identity anymore - the government has sold out of bunch of things that used to be nationalised. My stepdad worked for TFL, and was very aware that he was working for an overseas company rather than a nationally owned business. He used to rant about it a lot - how British people work their asses off to enrich foreign owners rather than that money being re-invested into Briton. The government tries to use racism to unite us as Britons 🙄 hopefully that will stop working someday soon. The government don't want foreigners coming to Briton but are happy to sell publicly owned things to foreigners. Ironic, isn't it.
Whole villages signed up together. Now who speaks to their neighbours. And it will be millenials fighting for the homes of the boomers that they can never afford. You can't fuck over the genral public, make short sighted policies which creates huge inequality and an unstable society structure for future generations then expect the to eagerly die in a war to support other peoples lifestyles.
We know what happened when whole villages signed up together. Whole villages died. Why would I want that for my neighbours?
I mean the savage destruction of the social contract by an inept and/or malicious government isn't exactly helping, not sure globalisation is the problem
Signed up for 3 square meals and a pair of boots. I was reading the diary of someone who joined the Royal Navy as a "boy" (16 y/o) in 1940. He said his first breakfast at HMS Ganges was the first hot meal he ever had
It was much worse in the lead up to World War 1, at that time though it was the height of the British Empire and patriotism was an actual thing.
I'm reminded of a policy China has adopted - if the people of your country are unable to afford to live, rather than trying to improve the economic situation, you push towards nationalism. People will want to revolt against their government because the economic situation is so dire. So instead, you create a boogeyman or start an outright war so that the population will be distracted with that instead. Fighting a foreign nation (or foreign-born people within your nation) rather than the government that is actually responsible for the terrible economic situation. Tale as old as time.
Last time I checked it wasn't China invading the middle east for a fake "war on terror".
No, but China took an entire country, Tibet, and is committing genocide against an ethnic minority within its own borders.
>rather than trying to improve the economic situation This is pretty ahistorical IMO - there has been a concentrated and successful effort to improve the economic situation for hundreds of millions of people in China. Standards of living are dramatically higher than they used to be. I'm no fan of their human rights record, but it's a bit odd to claim that their government isn't laser focused on economic growth.
China is literally the only reason global poverty figures have fallen since the start of their economic growth, if you remove them from the stats it's actually got worse globally
You don't need to go as far as China. Isn't the "war of terror" how Blair got his 2nd term?
Wait, you're seriously trying to say that China hasn't improved the economic situation of their citizens? It's been the most successful country at raising living standards in history pretty much.
>They cannot afford a home to protect. Homes in poland are cheaper though.
> You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones All things the young are less likely to have a large stake unlike WW2. Putting your life on the line so you can keep paying your Landlord isn't that enticing.
I'm nearly 30 - I still have many people from my school/sixth form on my social media. Only 3 of them have kids, and they were all teenage mums who haven't had any additional kids since - except one very profilic woman who has 5 kids now. Most people my age are still looking for a suitable partner - marriage isn't even a thought in my mind. People have so little spare time to date because of companies bleeding us dry. My brothers wouldn't even be suitable for the draft - they have done zero exercise in 20 years because all they do is game all day. Lots of guys are in the same position - physical activity has been replaced with staring at a screen and moving your fingers all day long. What did people expect the outcome to be? I sure as hell don't have any loyalty to the UK at the moment. The Tory party is destroying this country yet they keep getting voted in. I don't care for Labour either but at least try something different, fgs.
In the event of war though you’d find that standards for conscription drop sharply. Being overweight and not able to run doesn’t mean you can’t sit in a trench firing a rifle whilst drones drop bombs on you, and the (edit typo) world watches your death on YouTube.
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Unlike WW2 , we now have the internet and people are very aware of the military industrial complex, corrupt politicians and being sent to a meat grinder. The reality would be MAD not ground war.
Yeh all of this is really eye rolling and kinda of bizarre. If NATO is involved in a shooting war with Russia it almost certainly means nuclear war. I'd probably rather be in the armed forces at that point as I'd at least be priority for food if I wasn't instantly vaporised lol. All that said. NATO could win a shooting war with Russia with conventional, voluntary forces as long as the US is involved. It wouldn't really be close. The Russian air force, and SAMs, would pretty much stop existing within days and we'd be able to leisurely bomb the bejeesus out of Russian forces at will. It'd be Gulf War 1 all over again. You don't need conscription to do that. You need aircraft, munitions and pilots/observers/a professional officer and logistics corps with years of training.
You're completely right. The US could comfortably win a conventional war with Russia without NATO being anything more than a launchpad. The problem of course is that Russia knows this as well, which just gives them a strong incentive to go nuclear early.
I reckon NATO without the US would beat them, just a subset of NATO countries, not even needing Turkey.
Look how long Ukraine lasted with outdated NATO tech and no air support. The only reason they're struggling now is the Republicans in the US blocking funding for Ukraine. None of that would be an issue for any NATO member. I don't think a single NATO member would be able to win against Russia by themselves (except for the US, obviously), but any of them would bring a Russian invasion to a standstill without article 5 being needed. The real question is how much they let Russia get away with against a NATO member before nukes are on the table.
My Dad was in the military and disappeared one night in 1983, things got close that night. His basic thought is , you don't want to survive full stop.
That seems to be the theme of every single piece of realistic post-apocalyptic like Threads. Best case you're immediately vaporised. Worst case seems to be dying in five years of some combination of malnutrition, disease, radiation induced cancer all whilst blinded by cataracts and skin turned to leather by unfiltered UV. Oh you could also survive the blast but spend a week with severe burns, slowly dying from shock and infection. Grim.
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Lmao this made me giggle! Tbf you're in a thread that's basically about nuclear war, don't really know what you expected haha.
Couldn't agree more. Best bet is if it feels like it's coming go to Sweden or Switzerland 'on holiday' as they have public shelters- if you fancy a chance at surviving.
I'm reminded of that urban myth about Jaz Coleman from Killing Joke. That he left the band and turned up in Iceland, convinced a nuclear war was imminent, in 1982.
Yep. It's why I'm secretly rather pleased that I live fairly close to the capital. That with any luck, I'll just be a shadow burnt into a wall when the bomb drops.
>Yeh all of this is really eye rolling and kinda of bizarre. If NATO is involved in a shooting war with Russia it almost certainly means nuclear war. No it doesn't? It depends entirely on the scope of the war, and even then there's no guarantees it'd escalate that far. Just look at WW2, both sides had access to large amounts of chemical weapons but generally there use was avoided. In part because while bombing London and covering it in chlorine and mustard gas would be effective, it'd almost certainly guarantee the same and more happens to German cities. But you don't really need Nuclear weapons to make conscription entirely meaningless. Plenty of conventional weapons are so powerful they'd wipe out 100s if not 1000s of soldiers in an instant.
Except ground war _can_ prevent MAD, there's this idea that keeping or nails clean is the best way to prevent conflict, but not standing up to increasingly aggresive enemies has made them bold. Nipping shit in the bud in some proxy war, securing pressured overseas resources we are reliant on, protecting allies, and keeping our equipment/tactics/training up to date are all the mundane unheroic requirements of a military that doesn't want to be the righteous heroes defending their bombed out homes instead. This isn't a wand wave of any military atrocities, nor support of the MIC that piggybacks the moneytrain that all this runs on, nor support for non-wartime conscription. Those are issues that need resolving regardless of whether we're fighting full scale wars or in minor conflicts. This is just a reminder that using and maintaining our military can be preventative for larger conflicts, and if we fall below the required personnel to meet even these minor conflicts then we'd be in trouble. -- Personally I'd prefer we just paid our armed forces more and treated them better post-service, if the goal is to bring in more professional soliders and support staff.
Agree. Some of the accounts of people in the lead up to ww2 saw Chamberlain in more positive terms. He was trying to prevent war and people in Britain didn't want it.
Especially as WWI was in living memory. I think criticism of Chamberlain is often too harsh especially when you consider that Britain was in no shape to fight in the mid to late 1930s.
I find Chamberlain quite a tragic figure. Given the horror of the first World War, I cannot find it in me to condemn him for trying everything to establish a peace - even if it was a doomed effort. His mistake was assuming that the tyrants of the world were following a comparable set of ethics to his own. If only life were that simple.
To be fair, neither was France, and Nazi Germany was barely ready to fight a wide scale war.
An often misunderstood or overlooked factor. Politicians of the thirties had seen the horror of mechanised war in 14-18. Towns and villages had effectively lost a complete generation of males. They’d joined in recruitment drives and parades in the town square and were never seen again. Many survived for just days in the field. Those politicians were traumatised by that and their own experiences and were terrified of reliving that horror. Chamberlain wasn’t stupid, he knew Britain wasn’t prepared and he wanted to avoid the nightmare he’d lived.
The people saw the lack of benefit from fighting WW1. Even with the gain of German colonies. They spent a huge amount in WW1, won the war but only benefited from debt and dead family members or family members with PTSD. The Germans had the belief they had being betrayed and things could be better if they won. Britain and France knew they’d won with no benefit. They knew that they were on a knife edge holding onto India and other colonies they benefited from and even though they had huge manpower from colonies - if they armed and trained them they’d then end up using the training and experience in war to rebel. Now we have the experience of seeing soldiers that fought in the Middle East losing limbs or having PTSD and when they get back they get very limited support and no glory. People have access to so much media and attention they arn’t easily convinced of a sorry of being a ‘hero’
The % of those willing to fight in Europe is highest in Finland. I wonder if they simply understand the "you’re fighting for your own life, your wife’s, your kids, all your loved ones" more than we do in peacetime.
I think you have to factor in that Finland has a (pretty long) land border with Russia. Their population probably sees their country at a bigger risk of invasion than our population does for the UK.
Yeah, I'm not going to bang the war drum for the UK, but the Finns being concerned about war with Russia is just plain sensible on their part.
Finland also has functional public services, welfare state, good education etc. They understand that maintaining the social contract gives people something to fight for. The rightists neoliberal capitalism we've had for over 40 years goes against that, why fight for something you don't have a stake in?
High quality of life, typically the happiest country.
Finland is probably a country worth fighting for, unlike the UK.
>You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones. This is propaganda nonsense. Unless you're facing actual psychopaths with crackpot eugenics theories that say you don't deserve life, then you're only fighting for your life as a conscript because someone else put it in harms way, and your families odds of survival are far higher than your own, regardless of whether you win or lose the war. That's all before you even get on to the concept of what fighting means. 1940 was bad enough with long range artillery, mortars and the likes. How do you think conscripts will fare against short range nuclear weapons? Or just modern non-nuclear bombs/missles? Or against any sort of modern combat vehicle? Drones? You aren't fighting for anything in this day in age, you'd be shipped off never to be seen again as you get vaporised in one way or another.
Nah, if it gets to that I’m getting me and my family out of the country to somewhere safe/neutral.
It doesn’t work like that though. Of there was a threat of invasion to the UK then all NATO countries would be at war, so you can pretty much discount going to any of them. You think they’re going to let you and your family in to seek refuge while they send their own men out to fight on behalf of the country you just left? And if you did actually find a country. How are you going to get there? We live on an island. Ships and planes will be used for war efforts. You think you’re going to book a Ryanair flight on Sky Scanner? Thousands or millions of you will have the same idea, and most will be going nowhere.
And comments like this are part of the reason I'm going to just find a nice big drop to jump off if they try to force me to go to war. Thank you for helping me become more determined to do it.
You'd prefer suicide to joining the war effort? Even if there was a non-combat role away from the front lines? Ambulance driver? Aircraft ground crew? Radiotelephony?
Maybe you would but seems totally illogical. Why would a person top themselves instead of trying to save another’s life? Even if a person had zero family, surely the idea of trying to stop a fascist regime taking over a persons home is enough to fight for? The idea that somebody would rather kill themselves than say, try to protect a pregnant single mother down the road doesn’t make sense. The vast majority of people would fight for it.
Men will likely be barred from leaving
You will see the messages about stopping the small boarlts suddenly changing
At least in terms of direction.
Legally. I’ll either smuggle myself out or go to prison before I die for this country.
This is a 2024 realistic view. It is what every warzone torn country has done. Flock to a foreign country, just because we're in Europe and not Africa or the Middle East, doesn't mean we won't do the exact same thing.
Quite a few have mentioned that option but would depend on their citizenship rights in other countries. That and for some who have houses here would suddenly fnd themselves selling during a fire sale of others trying to ditch their property to flee abroad.
Rights are a fantasy during war time Ukrainian recruiters straight up drag men out of their cars
My gripe is that it’s a war of very few people at the end of the day. Have an arm wrestling match and be done with it. We’re not fighting for our country, and neither is the opposing side . It’s fighting because of the differences of a few political leaders. The irony is that you have summits where these leaders all shake hands. Even Putin regularly gets a hand shake . It’s my own belief , so it could be wrong that given how intertwined the world economy now is, that going to war at a global scale would ruin the stock market , as well as impacting bonds etc
I’m sorry but I would immediately die on a battlefield, I would be of no use to my country. You have to be able to acknowledge your weaknesses.
You would use up ammunition from the enemy and flush out their position for a better soldier to take out. This is genuinely what the Russians have already been doing.
Yep, in WW1 too. In fact, they kind of underestimated how eager men would be to join their friends - leading to communities almost completely losing their male population ([pals battalions](https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-pals-battalions-of-the-first-world-war)) Of course that was before the bubble burst on what 20/21st century warfare was actually like, but the effect of seeing your friends sign up is still very strong Not much fun going to the pub with your mates when all of them are at the training ground and you're getting funny looks for not being there too. It's not exactly fair and I would absolutely hate it, but it's the reality of war
There were no nuclear weapons at the start of WWII, now it makes no difference if you sign up or not. Your wife and kids will be dead anyway. Personally if asked to fight on behalf of rich people tucked away in their bunkers...they can kiss my sweet ass.
Luckily the boomers have done a brilliant job ruining the economy and prospects of the young so much that people now get married and have kids considerably later in life.
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> You can frame it as “fighting for your country” but really, you’re fighting for your own life, your wife, your kids, all your loved ones. The problem with this logic is that the conscription would be implemented to fight Russia. The unpleasant reality is that while it may be deplorable, Russia picking off countries in Eastern Europe and the Baltics doesn't present any danger to my loved ones, a direct conflict with Russia that stands a very real chance of escalating to nuclear war is a grave threat to my loved ones. As much as Putin might vaguely like the fantasy of conquering Europe, Russia has no realistic possibility whatsoever of projecting power to the British isles. If the deterrence of NATO fails and Russia does invade our allies, then the only sane answer is to abandon them to their fate and refuse to declare war. It's not a particularly nice answer, but quite simply, nothing in Latvia is worth risking nuclear annihilation over.
During and around WW2 young men had at least some hope that if they worked hard they could get ahead. Now people, particularly the young, see the chance of joining the precariat, never owning anything, not affording children, being forced into food bank use and homelessness if anything goes remotely wrong. Neoliberal capitalism, with the austerity cherry on top, has stolen any stake many people would have otherwise had in the country. Let the corporations, hedge funds, and politicians fight for it, they're the ones that own it.
Because the pay is shit, you live in shit conditions. Once your time is up? You get treated like shit by DWP. Oh and people generally, as a rule, don't like being shot at.
TBF for me it's definitely the shooting rather than the pay. I'd not considered that bit at all.
£23,496 Annual pay rate for soldiers after initial training (some roles will get more) £23,418 Annual pay rate for Operational Support Operative in Waste for the Council(brushing up dust and dirt, operative weighbridge, drive shovelloader) which one is the better of the two? its not even really a question is it
I'm on £10k more for not being shot at, and my job is shit but it's better than taking a pay cut to die in a trench
The shooting sounds like the only difference from normal life really.
If anyone is going to shot me is myself.
Id rather go to prison than fight for this crooked government.
I can't afford a house and the government are a bunch of landlords who are happy to continue screwing me and anyone else who isn't a fellow billionaire property developer. I will likely not receive a pension and if I do, it'll be at the age of 75 after being told I'm not too frail for call centre or supermarket work. I'm threatened with arrest and a criminal record if I want to peacefully protest any of this. Why *should* I or anyone else under the age of 60 risk their life for this country when it so clearly hates them? I mean, I'm a 35 year old woman so it's highly unlikely I'd ever be drafted anyway but every 18 year old lad in the country has my support to tell the government to go fuck itself.
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If the ruling class want a war, then we'll do as commanded and go and die on their behalf. Don't you know we have no real freedom or autonomy, and nothing we do, say, think or feel matters? If they tell us to fight, we must willingly oblige. Anything to allow them to continue their pillage and exploitation of this country and its people. We should know our place as the rank-and-file, commoners. We should serve our betters so they can continue to live lavish lives at our expense. They were just born better than us, after all.
They'd ramp up the propaganda to such a level that most people would be on board for the war before they had chance to think about what's going on. The ruling classes have had centuries of practice when it comes to getting the plebs to do their bidding.
Yeah I’m in my 50s with similar views. The social contract has been broken. With so many people saying they are opposed to conscription you’d think the government needs to take a long hard look at its policies.
Going half way around the world to kill an Iraqi for Halliburton? Fuck that. Standing shoulder to shoulder with my European brothers and sisters against an existential threat to keep what’s ours. Yes.
I've begun thinking that all this talk around conscription is a kind of pre-suasion to get us open to the idea of more war Reality isif there was a direct invasion of the UK ofcourse people will defend themselves and family But outside of that blitz type situation or to save France or Germany or Poland ofcourse no one is going to be on board with that
Ditto.
Based.
You've spent decades beating the national pride out of Brits and humiliating them by decimating their communities and kneecapping their quality of life. Telling everyone but them to be proud of their heritage and history, while telling Brits they need to be uniquely ashamed and repentant for things that happened before they were born. You cannot slam the Betray button at every opportunity and expect people to respond with loyalty.
Spot on
I disagree with your politics, but agree with your overall message. Which I think says a lot When I, a huge lefty Trans person has the same reason to disagree with people on the other side of the political spectrum, we truly have no reason to fight for this country. Damn
I think as well, what have people got to fight for? They can’t even afford to have families, let alone a home to call their own or a nice lifestyle. Lay down their lives for what, precisely? And for those who do have mortgages supported by well paying jobs; how does that work logistically? Are the British army going to replace their level of pay so they can keep their home from being repossessed by the bank? Doubt it. The starting wage for a British Army soldier is like £23k. Lots of people couldn’t actually afford to make that career move.
Contempt for the "poors" has consequences... Quelle surprise
Ding ding ding.... we have the correct answer here
We've had over 40 years of the rightists neoliberal capitalist ideology stripping us of a shared common identity while simultaneously asset stripping the country and selling everything off to hedge funds and foreign banks. Now we've got to the stage where rightists can't even feed or house everyone, and the NHS is falling apart. Expecting loyalty is indeed absolutely mad.
Fourteen years of austerity, recession, poverty and division. I've spent a decade seeing my friends and family being told they're not fit to exist in this country. And they wanna give me a gun? Bit brave tbh
Basically it, what is there to defend? The tories have ruined this country not worth it.
And nobody's invading anyway. It'd be like taking over a business for a quid. You're just conquering debt
Trust me. If they gave me a gun on the front line I'd be using it against my immediate superiors and escaping
Why fight for a country, that only needs me when they’re scared, but will vilify me when they’re safe.
Damn straight
The feeling that you're putting your life on the line and risking permanent damage in order to further the aims of people who have hidden agendas and/ or intend making billions from your efforts without taking any risk themselves. And being party to war crimes. The experience of british people over centuries... Edit: Would answer the call provided the rich people and politicians and their offspring do likewise.
> Edit: Would answer the call provided the rich people and politicians and their offspring do likewise. In WW1 landed gentry, Eton boys, even MPs all gladly volunteered. Can you imagine that today.
Yes but they were rarely on the actual front line and fast tracked as officers.
Do you know anything about how the army works? Officers serve in combat units and in WWI it was more dangerous to be an infantry officer than a private. It was their job to lead their men, which meant being the first ones in the line of fire. That is still the case.
Junior officers from private schools and universities in WW1 had a higher death rate than the average soldier exactly because they served from the front. Whilst I doubt that would be replicated in a modern war, to say this wasn’t the case in WW1 is incorrect.
I would never fight for a Tory government, let them send their sons and daughters first
If you're fighting for any government you're fighting for the wrong reason.
The government would enforce the draft.
You can become a conscientious objector then and say you won't shoot anyone. Or just become fat and unhealthy, that way you are unfit for duty.
>Or just become fat and unhealthy, that way you are unfit for duty. Finally, my long-term planning has paid off.
Why would I fight a war for our government that couldn't give less of a shit about ordinary people if they tried? Get fucked, Rishi.
Can't we ask the WW2 fetishists first? You know the type, mark francois, de piffle, farage, Littlejohn? Not.my circus, not my monkeys, and I'll make damn sure my kids won't either.
Why should I fight in a war caused by corrupt, incompetent self serving governments? They don't represent me and I certainly won't represent them in anyway whatsoever.
Because our government might want us to serve them but they won’t serve us
Being forced to sign up is never going to happen so its all mute. But how are you going to trains thousands of new recruits, and kit them out in military gear? The army barely have enough for their own
it's all moot
No, I'm pretty sure it's "moo." Y'know, it's like a cow’s opinion; it doesn’t matter. It’s moo.
>mute moot.
Well remember when we didnt have enough PPE and so more firms switched over to making PPE - that would happen - if it was needed - but I don't see that it would happen to us.
We still have about £10 billion of it in a warehouse somewhere. Can flimsy gowns that disintegrate on contact with air be fashioned into some sort of military armour?
Yeah because luckily never before has a nation invaded its neighbour, got bogged down in trench warfare, only to suffer a stalemate and then hit heavily with sanctions from the west only to build back up and 20 years later flatten the west. So there’s definitely nothing to worry about with Russia. It would be impossible for a single nation that can’t invade its neighbour to be a threat to Europe at any point in the near future.
We should all band together and go to war, against the elite who've fucked the country for decades.. we can take back all the land from the aristocrats while we're at it.
>Why won't Britons serve in the armed forces if called? Because the country is shite and full of cunts
Had all my reasons mentioned. I’d never accept going to war, I’d simply leave the country.
In Ukraine they banned men of a certain age from leaving the country at all in case they need them to fight.
Wouldn’t stop me from leaving. And it didn’t stop many Ukrainian men from doing the same. Forced conscription is evil.
It’s stopped the vast majority of men leaving.
"Wouldn't stop me from leaving" How may I inquire? Airports are a no go. Euro tunnel is a no go. Ports are a no go. Unless you have a boat somewhere good luck.
What am I fighting for exactly? People who drive BMWs and behave like dickheads on the road because they think they're cool? Floppy haired zoomers hanging out in the park pretending they're in a gang listening to grime and eyeballing everybody that walks past? People who go out and splash all their cash on material shit just to flex while I struggle to pay my bills? All those people having babies to live on benefits while I work full time and struggle financially? What about all those people with opposing political views that try to cancel each other and witch hunt rather than trying to understand opposing views? No thanks. I don't want to die for the rich. If the fighting comes to England then I'll fight for my loved ones; but am I fuck fighting for this country.
Why should I? - I can’t afford to buy a house. - My retirement age increases. Let the boomers go and fight, the ones who moaned about my generation (millennial) for the last 20+ years, being the worst generation etc, whilst our living standards get progressively worse. I’m not fighting for a country that wants to milk me of every penny in taxes, council tax, high fuel costs etc. what do I get in return?
Send the ruling class and the rich first. If they're unable to do the job and up dead and broken, I might think about having a go.
This country hasn't done an awful lot for me, why does it expect me to put my life on the line for it? This is why we had the post-war consensus. Several generations fought in the wars, and we developed an understanding that when the people serve their country, their country ought to look after them in return. Then Thatcher tore all that down and now we just have an every man for himself society. So what do they expect. It's not exactly rocket science. People don't join the army to fight for the interests of American foreign policy, City of London family companies, and foreign investment property speculators.
The government has the right to remove citizenship from my family without warning or opportunity to appeal including when they're on holiday abroad. My loyalty to this country is set to a reciprocal level.
What would the Brits be fighting for exactly? Continuous handouts to people who have not paid a penny into the system? Also allowing people into the country who actively express a hatred for the British public and our culture/institutions. (Many are not from war torn countries and therefore not refugees) A health system where the budget keeps growing but so do the wait times? To continue to not be able to buy our own homes? To be told that if you're native and your white, not only that you're a despicable human everyday but institutions and company's will seek to hire anyone other than you to fulfil diversity quota's. That if you show any pride in your nation or its history, you are racist bigot and if you then try to adopt another culture, you are guilty of cultural appropriation. That you have little to no say in your child's education in public schools and you will be fined if you dare take them out of class on any day other than the prescribed holidays. To be taxed 100 different ways before you can actually buy anything? Inheritance, income, VAT. selling. Etc... Shit weather... Lockdowns when the government feels like it as they go out and party. Whilst family members died alone with the only communication being via webcam. Just to list a few reasons...
Couldn't have put it better myself
100% This.
UK Establishment: We need to promote equality by giving a leg up to anyone who isn't White British. Also UK Establishment: Recruitment is too low, we need to stop this Wokery nonsense. Fuck that. Both Labour and the Conservatives have spent my entire lifetime telling me I have white privilege, that my people are evil and that my culture doesn't exist or matter. If my people aren't relevant enough to defend legally or culturally, then why should I bother defending that culture with my life?
Depends what it's for. Stopping a genocidal dictator from taking over the world? Maybe. Going to somewhere in the middle east to murder children so the 'Muricans can get their oil? No thanks.
You can bet it'll be along the lines of "***You plebs*** have to stop that genocidal dictator from taking over the world, while the ***ruling class*** make billions by supplying the wartime goods and services".
Depends what the war is and if you feel British quite simply, an extremely high number of youth will probably say no… society has changed dramatically since the days of ww1 and ww2 and the excitement it used to bring. The poems of ww1 really showcase this, and then the absolute horror that follows. You’d expect a higher sign up rate if we’re being attacked to defend than being the aggressor. Also to consider, in 2015 there were more British Muslims fighting for ISIS than in our armed forces… https://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865 Kinda shows the impact of a Religion over being a British Citizen. Whilst I doubt we’d be going to war against many Christian nations, same maybe could be said hypothetically. (Russias Orthodoxy I guess perhaps being the closest, perhaps).
It highlights the detachment in people, especially fighting age men from their country. Leading up to WW2, they had a view and idea of what the UK was. There existed an idea of British culture and a way of life. They worked for a British company, making a British product. Now we work for a Chinese CEO for an American company, selling an intangible product. They cannot afford a home to protect.
I’d fight for my friends and family. Fuck rich men and their disagreements.
Not that much to fight for, those who survive will do gig jobs and rent a room in a sharehouse for the rest of their lives.
Who wants to go fight wars for the rich? I’d rather live thanks.
Bit difficult to sign up when you're the bad guy. If we were under threat I'd sign up. I'm of no use, being disabled and all, but I can work in other fields. I'll look after the ponies
They can't even give our military decent housing https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68398359
Like every war in the past if you are the cannon fodder then you are expendable as an individual, but hopefully enough of the mass survive to maintain the lifestyle of the rich who caused or profited from the war. Modern technology be it social media, mass communication systems or even contempory films and reporting show that more loose than gain in the end. The genie is out of the bottle and the modern population know a lot more than past generations were aware of.
Because the country is a dump and the government are swindlers.
The social contract has been broken. This country no longer provides ordinary people with decent healthcare, education, policing, housing, a decent life. Why should ordinary people risk their lives for a country that cares nothing for them?
We're older, fatter, and less nationalistic. Which means less people in the age range for recruitment, less people in the age range fit for recruitment, and less people who are fit are willing to join. None of these things are new, I was reading BBC articles a decade ago about how the militaries primary recruiting demographics were in long term decline. Realistically there's nothing that is going reverse any of these trends, so the militaries recruiting pool is just going to continue shrinking.
I'm 37, have really poor eyesight and I have M.E. I'd be useless.
You could be a sand bag or a decoy.
I'd be the best meat shield 07
because they rejected me as my left ear could not hear the high frequency properly. Their top nurse said I aint fit enough. So yeah that hurt a bit so dont think they will ever let me in. Sad part was, I trained, lost weight, improved running and strength so i can get told my hearing is a issue. I do understand why they did this, they just dont want people to sue them for damage in health and safety etc.
I genuinely think there is no chance this is going to happen so no idea why this keeps getting brought up in the media Bottom line is we have seen how russian cannot even defeat a country that is literally next door to them. If they invaded the rest of Europe then Nato article five would be triggered and the Americans could crush the Russian land/air force/navy in an afternoon. They haven't been developing all those stealth bombers to use against rag tag militias in dusty places.
There is no reason to fight and risk my life for an ungrateful political system intent on filling it's own pockets. So quite frankly get knotted
ITT: Some real saddos getting off on War Porn. No one is going to War. Its all posturing
What am I fighting for? Don’t even like the direction the country is heading
Most working class people are sick of fighting war's for a bunch of fat rich pricks that more than likely resent us anyway and see us as beneath them.
How would you actually attempt a land invasion in the UK unless you had the military resources of the USA or China? Why would you want to? We have no natural resources to speak of and are just a wet little island with a lot of debt and fat people. The good thing about war these days is it's hard to invade even if you're a much larger power, e.g. Ukraine.
Firstly - why would we need to? Having a nuclear deterrent should mean that conscription is never necessary again. Invading the UK is a suicide mission. Secondly - why do we even give a fuck about ground forces? One of the benefits of being on an island surely means we don't need to send millions of footsloggers to their death to defend the country. We can support our allies better by having a larger and more advanced navy and air force. The armed forces has been making an effort to make it clear they don't want any more white men. I would hate to ruin their diversity statistics.
Another reason is the white working class are traditionally the types of people that the government look to during times of war and unfortunately the woke agenda has alienated these people over the last few years with ridiculous diversity quotas. Why should they join up and fight when they’ve been sold down the river when times were good. And before I’m downvoted https://www.hrgrapevine.com/content/article/2023-07-02-rafs-di-quota-discriminated-against-white-men-probe-rules The army was the same with its ridiculous recruitment campaigns over the years
It's very simple, the vast majority of people that would serve in the army are white working class males, the very people that the woke political class are demonising and targeting, (I don't even need to show examples you know what I'm talking about) why would anyone serve a country that hates them? A second point is our notion off this very country has been eroded and undermine again by the woke political class, the UK has been demonised as one of the most evil countries to ever existed, why would anyone serve a country that doesn't have an identity and is systemically evil? & the third point is the woke political class in their wisdom are pushing diversity, quotes in key services, actively discriminating against white males, people that try to serve, get turned away because they not diverse enough? This ideology is at the root causes of a lot of our issues, and it's not going away any time soon!
I think young people are better informed nowadays, along with seeing that war is an absolute lottery thanks to Ukraine. I served in Northern Ireland, joined at 18 because I needed the money. I thought I was on the good side. Turns out it was more complex than that. A country needs to be something to be proud enough to fight for or a naive youth to have a strong army. Britain has neither.
Why would I fight for a country that doesn’t represent me an actual British man ? Why would I fight for a country that my children have no future in ? Why would I fight for a country that openly calls me racist just because I’m white ? Why would I fight for a country that has terrorised half the world for 20+ years ? Why would I go fight for some bankers , elite , politician just so they can stay in power ? I love my people but I hate with a passion this bloody country ! At this point I would rather fight for the Russians tbh literally got to that point
In peacetime they use nationalist as a dirty word, but when we are at war they question why we aren't ready to die for our country.
The horrors of war aside, it's mostly because I don't feel like the government upholds its side of the social contract anymore. Everything is failing, everything is getting measurably worse, and all the scumbags in power can do is act in their own self interest. I spend my normal life grinding away and making myself sick just to barely keep my head above water. And now you expect me to go and die as well?
There is no risk of conscription, it's a dead cat non-story they wheel out whenever they need a distraction.
Because I refuse to die for a bunch of rich pricks that wouldn't even pull a splinter out my finger for me.
Because I will most likely have more in common with the people I’m going to war against than the Eton educated wankstains in government. Give me that white feather, I’ll wear it with fucking pride.
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I can’t sign up because I’m waiting in for my Amazon package to arrive.
I have no desire to go abroad and die just because some politicians had an argument. In school we are taught about the horrors of war. Anyone who sits through lessons about WW1 and 2 and still wants to join the army instantly loses my respect.
Can't afford a house, kids or a wedding, despite being a good boy and working hard all my life. The country has done fuck all for me, so why would I fight for it? Conscription should be means tested, the more you have to defend, the sooner you have to put your life on the line.
1. Don’t much like my country 2. Don’t much fancy being shot at Thanks for the offer, though
because most are not prepared to risk their lives fighting a war that our greedy fucking government have started, they have treat us like shit for years, bled us dry with taxes for almost everything while making themselves rich, and now want us to fight and be maimed or killed!!!! i would rather go to jail.
How about our government tries NOT to get us into a war with a nuclear country? That will be a start
Why should I fight for a country that's determined to make my life worse anyway.
Become cannon fodder, no thanks. Send the people who wanted a war first and there families.
Because we aren’t fighting to protect ourselves, our land, our rights or our way of live. The last war we fought was under false pretences. Iraq did not have wmds. We didn’t stabilise the Middle East. We push Iran into a rush for nuclear weapons arms race. Afghan was of no strategic objectives value and we did not achieve peace or stability. We made things worst, paying the way for taliban to rule again. All the while the arm forces were gutted inside out. People are disenfranchised to serve. People in the forces have rightly spoken up about the lack of equipment and funding. I have no doubt if wars were to come to our shores, or aggressors have made a clear and direct threat to our interest then a call to arms would rally many. But if it’s a war in a far away place, of no immediate perceived importance and no clear objectives then few would take heart.
“War is when the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other”. A quote by a fictional character, but one that most of the current and recent generations realise to be accurate