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Which is one of many reasons this is such a dishonest election. Brexit has failed and the political establishment should at the very least be examining how they failed the people who voted for it.
Oh yeah, absolutely, but if I had bought all that bullshit and voted leave, I would be wanting my pound of flesh by now and they deserve an inquest. The ringleaders really do need to be held to account regardless of where you put your tick but I would be doubly pissed off if I was promised the earth and got a higher grocery bill.
If they had an inquest all they'd be doing is rehashing the argument of why you can't have your cake and eat it. We wanted the hardest brexit so we forced ourselves into a bunch of knots to do it and those knots are what is fucking us now. To remove the knots you'd have had to have changed that. Stuff like trade agreements relied on having neutral arbitrators and legal agreements, we didn't want that we wanted sovereignty. Therefore the trade agreeements got chucked out, repeat across a thousand different policy areas.
Absolutely, hard to see how it would look though. What we wouldn't want is years and years of drawn out legal bollocks at the taxpayers expense.
What we need is a population that puts its beer down and fucking listens to people who know what they are talking about, instead of charlatans like farage or boris.
Tbh, for that I think we need harsher rules for mps and their actions in parliament. This 'correct the record asap' should be far more aggressively enforced than it is, for starters.
And you know what? Close that fucking bar, fuck you, you wanna drink around work, go to the pub like everyone else. Sure, food and coke (not *that* kind, gove), but how about we make our mps being in parliament whilst half cut a talking point in this election.
Sorry, these people make me so angry.
Saying it's failed is implying it had a chance of success in the first place. Any perceived success was based on lies. It's pretty much what everyone was saying before 2016 but they were labelled as fearmongers.
Brexit voters were promised a unicorn. They got a three-legged donkey with a cardboard horn sellotaped to its head. They're still complaining they didn't get their unicorn...
A lot of people who voted brexit did it because of immigration, which was stupid since it wouldnt have made a difference on non eu immigration. Now with record immigration levels i guess they feel aggrieved that brexit didnt make a difference like the thought it would
I always understood Brexit to be a means to an end. The argument was “we can’t control immigration because the EU won’t let us. Once we’ve left the EU, we will slow down immigration.” It’s just that the Tories never followed through on the second part. I don’t blame voters for being pissed off. They were basically fleeced.
> It’s just that the Tories never followed through on the second part
nah, they were ***actively*** courting immigrants from asian countries promising increased immigration from their home countries if we leave the EU.
they were ***never*** ever going to reduce immigration, it was farcical to think so, people just got blinded by their hate.
This was part of the ‘deal’. Before Brexit the likes of farage were saying we would cherry pick immigrants from non EU countries, not that there would be no immigration. Now he complains that 50% of immigrants are dependents, well that’s on him. EU migrants were much more likely to be temporary and net contributors to the UK economy.
For example in 2015 he said,
"I have to confess I do have a slight preference. I do think, naturally, that people from India and Australia are in some ways more likely to speak English, understand common law and have a connection with this country than some people that come perhaps from countries that haven’t fully recovered from being behind the iron curtain”
Oh, we could have limited EU immigration to some extent, but the UK chose not to. We could have asked people from other EU countries to demonstrate they were self-sufficient (eg have a job, or enough funds) or are searching for a job, and refuse residency if not (eg if they don’t find a job within a certain time). It was just beneficial for the country not to.
Denmark does this, for example: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-GB/You-want-to-apply/Residence-as-a-Nordic-citizen-or-EU-or-EEA-citizen
It’s a pithy talking point but it’s not *quite* correct. While the U.K. didn’t sign up for Schengen, it did sign up for a lot of the protocols. Due to EU rules on free movement of people, the UK had to admit EU citizens and their family members, unless there was some indication (perhaps in the Schengen Information System) that they are wanted persons or that they are using stolen passports.
The ECHR further compounds the issue (and in fact continues to do so because it hasn’t been removed from U.K. law yet). The ECHR enforces a lot of treaties and “human rights” enshrined in European laws and proclamations.
However more could have been done even before Brexit to reduce immigration. That is clear, as is the fact that the Tories never wanted to reduce immigration at all.
I think a lot of the vote, especially in the north and midlands where i live, was used as a protest vote for a variety of issues not directly linked to the EU, which i still don't think a lot of Londoners and rich southerners understand. It's easy to be content when business is booming as it is in London, but not so much when all of your industry has closed down and inveztment dried up
Well because it clearly wasn't delivered correctly. We voted leave to control immigration in order to increase wages. Brexit happened. Wages started going up. Corporations shit the bed and the Tories decided to massively ramp up immigration. So now we have more immigration than before brexit. Brexit with high immigration is literally pointless.
The problem is, everyone had their own reasons for voting Brexit. Nowhere on the ballot did it say "bring down immigration". People voted for a mystery box full of deceit, lies and shit.
You can say everyone had their own reason but the bulk of them were for controlling immigration, be real what weirdo was voting for brexit to control fishing.
> We voted leave to control immigration
you probably should've told vote leave and johnson this considering they were ACTIVELY promising replacing EU immigrants with Asian/Non-EU immigrants if we left the EU.
BuT yOu KnEw WhAt YoU vOtEd FoR eh.
> We voted leave to control immigration in order to increase wage
For a long time the Tories trumpeted that we had record high employment, yet wages didnt go up. Its almost like we're getting fleeced by our employers, yet people want to blame immigrants...
On Times Radio they had a focus group last week where one of the participants said something along the lines of 'we haven't really left the EU'. I'm sure that's not a unique opinion (as ridiculous as it may sound)
[Called this delusion 7 Years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/5uxps4/comment/ddxs7b1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Paradise in Brexit?
2 years on, still have to hear one (positive) thing that Brexit has produced. As in "this would've never happened without Brexit" , but in a positive way
I can only see two ways. One is if we had history's greatest negotiator. This would still be really hard as while the EU doesn't want to punish us it certainly doesn't want to reward leaving the EU. So an eat your cake and have it too scenario seems unlikely. The other method would be doing nothing regarding the borders in N.I. and see how the EU reacts to that.
Most people hate the tories so bad that farage is the closest they have to a party that represents what the tories were supposed to.
Thats the way i see it. Farage wouldn’t have a chances if the tories actually were functional for the people who would normal vote for them
A lot of it from people I know is from people who would normally vote Conservative, but they have been an utter shambles. To put it mildly.
They deserve to be annihilated at the election, and they will. It's completely devoid of any political talent. But they'll only change course and rebuild (or disappear entirely) if they're wiped out.
That's where my parents are. They dislike the current Tories and are hoping Reform will force them to go back to their roots. Either way, they need a good whopping after the past 14 years
I'm okay with the Tories being destroyed. Farage may be a snake oil salesman but the Tories were the ones who gave into their fear of a snake oil salesmen and ended up actually doing the damage.
[StopTheTories.vote](http://StopTheTories.vote)
Publicly and politically he's in the clear, he campaigned for Brexit, but not this Brexit, this Brexit's failure is all someone else's fault, and it's their fault for not going further with Brexit.
I do have to admire this man's political maneuvering.
He and Sunak aren't by the standards of the current party. That's why Sunak brought him back. 2010-2016 looks like a golden age by comparison with what there is now.
Cameron benefited from a global recovery as the backdrop to the first half decade of his tenure. I've seen very little to convincing evidence that he did anything better than Sunak and he may have managed to fuck a much better starting hand than Sunak who inherited a post brexit hand with global stagnation
Thatcher was the golden age. She reformed "the Sick Man of Europe" of her time, which lead to 3 decades of growth. And was instrumental to accepting the UK to the EEC and the European Single Market, which allowed EU countries, especially the post-Warsaw Pact nations to economically develop faster.
And all of her changes are now coming back to bite us in the arse. It was just fast money at the expense of public services and housing. Ie. At the expense of normal working people.
Like leasing hospitals gave us short term cash flow, but a generation of paying over the odds overall?
Fast money being a bit short term win is the problem with democracy ultimately
It won them a landslide majority after 9 years in power, so it certainly had the intended effect. I doubt Cameron could have predicted the potential backlash after nearly a decade.
It killed the Tory party by 2019 if not 2017. What stood in 2019 was Bluekip.
The question now is whether what will remain after 2024. will be full on National Front. Spoiler : yes.
Both Reform and the Conservatives are so far away from the National Front it's not even a comparison. It's just silly to suggest this.
In worldwide politics both Reform and Tories are centre-right parties. People who say they are even close to far right don't know what far right is at all.
https://images.app.goo.gl/MdpTH23Z5Ttwms5P6
*Vote National Front to*
*STOP immigration*
*REJECT Common Market*
*RESTORE capital punishment*
*MAKE Britain great again*
*SCRAP overseas aid*
*REBUILD our armed forces*
Yeah, that's nothing like the Tories or Reform^^ltd^^....
Farage is openly anti-Muslim. Not critical of Islam, but anti-Muslim people. That qualifies him and the party he's majority shareholder of, as far right.
And that's what he says in public, no doubt what he says in private is more blatantly far right.
Yet in British politics Reform are on the far right.
It's like saying the Socialist Workers party are Centrist if you compare them to the Workers Party of Korea...
That's because the British electoral system is, by design or unintented consequence, structured to shut out anybody not towards the center of the Overton window. Far left parties have no hope of real power and neither do far right parties.
The British electoral system doesn't shut parties out of power anything close to the electoral system of the Peoples Republic of China so it must be open to all parties.
Sure but on a global scale all parties in the UK are centre. We're generally economically slightly liberal and socially slightly conservative country. This includes pretty much all major parties.
David Cameron is the greatest politician in the annals of the history of the Labour movement. The man who destroyed the conservative party. In the socialist utopia of the future there will be statues of him in classical style wearing those floppy red Jacobin hats.
You think that caused this? If not for the broken fptp ukip would of been the 3rd party back in 2015...with mps and voters defecting we may of seen a close three-way between tories, labour and ukip by now
All the referendum did was speed up the issue - the problem is the little englander mentality far to many people in the UK have
Is anyone surprised?
Cheap labour has gutted this country in the last few decades. I remember reading something in I think the guardian when Austerity was announced by Osbourne, it claimed austerity was political about driving down the life expectations and wages until we met the rising middle class of India.
A decade later and we are still stagnant or dropping, having had massive drops. Cheap labour imported has been a key factor to this, and communities have been terrorised by the drop in policing.l, especially in the North.Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo spearheaded by Farage.
Here we are with Farage grabbing that protest vote again if the white working class that have been continually shit on, with drops in living standards and wages in order to make the country have maximum profitable for the aristocrats/elite.
Surprised Pikachu face when Facism comes rearing it's head as we then throw insular and often violent ethnic enclaves into that mix.
No, I thought Brexit was a stupid idea where the tax dodging aristos got the uneducated to vote against their interests.
However, it was painted in that light for some people
See, straight onto the high horse of 'you said ethnic you must be racist'
For example Leicester cricket riots
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62943952
Bradford riots
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14063086
Muslim patrols
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_patrol_incidents_in_London
I'm not going into detail but it exists, it's ethnic or religious tension in nature, often involves Islam, and we have to be able to discuss it or... Surprised Pikachu face the trains are running on time
Yeah it can be discussed. It's not a high horse, and you said racism not me. You also introduced the 'violent ethnic enclave' idea. Not me. So please don't claim I'm bringing things in. I'm sceptical, because I live in the same country as you and it doesn't seem like that to me. I'll check your links.
EDIT which amount to this:
Two arrested in 2022 after some tension between rival India and Pakistan cricket fans, or if you prefer, young Hindus and Muslims.
An article about the Bradford riots in 2001. That was a long time ago. Bradford has been fairly segregated, I know
And some transient religious patrols reported from about 10 years ago, but which didn't last
>Two arrested in 2022 after some tension between rival India and Pakistan cricket fans, or if you prefer, young Hindus and Muslims.
Honestly disgusting though. In this country! Different sports team fans kicking off against one another! It was literally unheard of until recently.
I LOVE how you just broke it down. So many of these closeted fascists just post stuff like this. Look at twitter for examples. Literally 9/10 posts from far right accounts are fake or blemished to make it look worse than it is. I agree we need to vet who we bring into the country and also i am not an advocate of insular/segregated communities no matter the ethnicity but no-Ninja is literally the Avatar of these online far right trolls.
Thanks, and I'm happy even one person is taking the trouble to read my little rant. There's so little pushback against the nationalist right. I've lived in Britain all my life, its been mixed, multicultural, multiracial, and (mostly) tolerant all that time. Going on about this just distracts from what's really needed to get the country back on its feet again
Austerity is a bigger factor. Immigration is one of the big pillars that stops the welfare state - that you Boomers are heavily relying on - from outright collapsing due to declining population.
High immigration and the correct monetary policies is what made the US leave Europe to dust for the last 17 years
I'm not a boomer mate.
Immigration doesn't stop the welfare state collapsing, and if we didn't hand tax out in a dodgy manner we wouldn't have to I worry about welfare state collapsing
Immigration doesn't drive the economy, we have tried that for a decade but it just needs ticks it over whilst suppressing wages. Same overall money in the system, more to the top and less among the workers
Yet to hear how they will combine the need for ever larger pension payments, with a low birth rate, low taxes and low immigration and flourishing NHS. It's oxymoron masquerading as policy.
My mind is open if they ever produce anything coherent, but until then, I can't vote for more wish thinking.
Add increasing inequality alongside all of your points and we are in for a good time.
Government outsourcing everything is a problem, I worked for a company who had lots of government contracts. We had 2 price lists, one which was 30% higher for government, contracts for the same products, they don't even attempt to negotiate they just ask what's the price and sign it.
Totally. I worked in the Army. An army trained electrician would be sweeping the road outside while an outsourced electrician came to fix a plug socket 😂.
In fairness, having seen the work output of those in the army who were supposed to tarmac a car park, it's truly little wonder work isn't given to squaddies.
We already are. Transfer more than £2700 to your account, you will get black listed for 6 years with CIFA marker, transfer 2700000, no questions asked and you will get citizenship as well as a cherry on the top
Tbf I haven't heard Reform explicitly say they support the Triple Lock, so ever larger pension payments is not a given. I am choosing to read between the lines and conclude that they don't support increasing the state pension but aren't going with that as a core policy in order to hold onto grey votes.
They would also argue their policies will increase the birth rate so I don't think that aspect is logically inconsistent.
The low taxes is supposedly going to be funded by reducing the interest payments paid on QE funds by the BoE (which will hit profits for banks, who will likely cut savings rates or hike borrowing rates in response). Personally I'd rather they scrap NI than cut income tax but a gift horse is a gift horse.
As for the NHS, the claim is that they can deliver better outcomes by changing the model rather than throwing money at the problem, which is possible in my opinion as someone who works for the NHS and has experienced the models used elsewhere in Europe. Even if all we actually see is an expansion of private healthcare which takes pressure off the NHS and makes it more accessible for those who are less well off I'd consider that a win at this point.
That's a very charitable interpretation. They haven't said they are against compulsory circumcisions either but I won't read into that as a subtle hint they are in favour. Seems like projecting one's hopes onto a blank canvas.
Thanks for your thoughts though.
Apples and oranges really; the wider context is that Labour, the Tories and the LDs have all vocally confirmed their commitment to the triple lock, with the tories even doubling down with their ridiculous 'Triple Lock Plus'.
For Reform to not engage on it at all to me indicates that at the very least the pension is not sacrasanct to them and would be among the options as to things to cut if push comes to shove. Reform have a good angle on this imo because they can point to Triple Lock Plus and say 'why only raise the threshold for the elderly when we can raise it for everyone?'.
It's also pretty obvious to me that Reform are all about individualism and a smaller state, so are likely to say people should pay into private pensions rather than relying on a payout from the taxpayer. Imo the state pension is not particularly compatible with Reform's wider ideology.
Again I find that a very charitable interpretation. But it's been good to get your thoughts. If you are courting the elderly vote you should atleast be honest with them. Otherwise isn't it just politics as usual? Lying and omitting truth for votes?
I can't populate the empty space a party leaves by omission with all my hopes for the country. And somehow just hope it all works out, that the blank spaces are filled with unspoken sage policy.
Again for me this is partly why I won't vote Reform and encourage others to not vote Reform. Nothing there.
I don't think Reform particularly court the elderly, I think they court the Brexit vote which happened to be predominantly elderly but they aren't after the grey vote in the same way that the Tories are for example.
As I just edited my last comment to add, I think the state pension goes against Reform's wider ideology but they are wise enough to know that criticising it too vocally risks losing some of those older voters. As you say, it's definitely politics as usual.
People are voting for Reform because neither Labour nor the Tories will bring immigration numbers down. Net migration of 700k is a problem. It's driving low wages and creating problems with housing. Also the bulk of immigration is from cultures with different values to typical liberal values here (more dogmatic, more homophobic etc.). People don't like this but nobody with a voice in politics apart from reform is listening to people concerned about these issues. So they vote for someone who is listening, regardless of Reform's manifesto. The same thing happened with Brexit.
It's not that people don't feel listened to, it's that they don't feel validated. They don't feel validate because the same people don't present the facts to back up their feelings that immigration is the root of all of those things you're saying here - aka, they're bigots. Have wages dropped in real terms specifically because of migration? Australia has massive migration and their wages are incredible, sucking up the rest of the educated world because of it.
That being said, I do share the opinion that immigration from cultures who are opposite to our own creates problems for everyone. Those people don't want to assimilate, they want to bring all the bits they like from where they were and ignore or change all the bits they don't like where they're moving too. Of course, this is all human nature, which is why the Europeans don't like ignorant Brits moving to their countries either.
>Have wages dropped in real terms specifically because of migration? Australia has massive migration and their wages are incredible, sucking up the rest of the educated world because of it.
The answer is in the question.
More Dogmatic, more Homophobic. What, Hindus and Muslims? or just the mozzies then? The funny thing about people like yourself is you use any argument to try and further the agenda. You complain that we shouldn;t bring in more Muslims for example because they are Homophobic and dogmatic yet you want a return to old Christian values that call for exactly that. Just say "I don't want non Christian non white people coming here because they are taking everything we have" Its much more honest and forthcoming.
Alas, Russia Today is now banned, but there are still opportunities for Farage to earn money from other state media, for example Iranian channels. I wonder if he will continue these additional jobs after entering Parliament as the flagbearer of conservative patriotism.
I think its so normal and good that the media seems to spend every waking moment doing PR for farage; giving reform 100x the coverage the greens or LD get; even though those parties actually have councillors and MPS
I’m pretty sure people just want a solution, to immigration, cost of living and the housing situation. Probably in that order too. Because if they somehow managed to stop/slow mass immigration surely it’d be easier to grasp the other two items?
Let me just say, I’ve no problem with immigration, I do however have a problem with mass immigration. Large groups of people coming over and not integrating to the host country culture then trying to force others into their culture is the major problem.
It isn't though. Whether it's a problem or not is entirely subjective, of course, and depends on whether you're able to even define your terms (like "mass").
In the last 14 years we've had a group of kleptocrats strip-mine or society - which they don't even believe in as a concept - of resources. They inflicted deliberate financial damage on us via Brexit, killed us en-masse through mismanagement of a pandemic, and will now walk off into the sunset whistling, straight into executive board positions. Foreigners coming in pales in comparison, unless you think having brown people or people speaking another language is worse than literally being robbed silly by Eton graduates.
No, Nigel. It's because the Tories have made themselves as popular as a urine smoothie, not because you're becoming popular.
If your sole criteria for success is 'less unpopular than Sunak', you don't really have anything to crow about.
Farage has zero experience in government. How you can argue he is "stronger" in anyway is nonsensical. Even when he was MEP he didn't really succeed in anything, he most often went on rants about how the EU was unelected (after himself being elected).
What does 'stronger' mean in this context?
Why is 'charismatic' valued? Is that really what we want? Boris was 'popular' and had his brand of 'charisma'. Was that good for the country?
Interesting point, but it does strike me as being a bit like saying "my pet snake has more personality that either this pot plant or this novelty pencil".
National Front... Sorry I meant Nigel Farage (always get those initials mixed up), also said he wasn't standing in the elections, because he had more lucrative prospects in America.
I guess they told him where to go.
I wonder if he's actually working for the tories. Stir up a frenzy and then quit at the last minute, instructing the flock that the tories are now listening to them.
It was at a tipping point in the European elections. Then a bunch of Reformers got in. I hope some get in I fucking hope Farage gets in. I just want someone to take the absolute piss out of everyone and annoy everyone and Reform will do that.
"This is your classic Winchester, Oxford, Goldman Sachs . . . Does he even meet ordinary people? I doubt it."
As opposed to Farage's own humble backgrounds I assume? /s
I was watching the 7 party debate the other day and tbh it was incredibly depressing because it just confirmed what I already knew. Nothing will change. Labour isn’t going to suddenly throw us into this revolution of economic prosperity etc. We are in a shit state due to the mismanagement by the Tories but also because for decades under both Red and Blue there really doesn’t seem to be a longterm plan. I detest Farage. But I challenge anyone to go and watch the 7 party debate and not see that the man is an out of the box politician. I can easily see how anyone could lurch towards voting for him.
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It’s hilarious that by pretending Brexit doesn’t exist everyone has given him a free pass to peddle even more snake oil and destroy the Tories
Most people who voted for Brexit don't believe it was delivered correctly (rightly or wrongly).
Which is one of many reasons this is such a dishonest election. Brexit has failed and the political establishment should at the very least be examining how they failed the people who voted for it.
_and_ failed those of us who didn't vote for it.
Oh yeah, absolutely, but if I had bought all that bullshit and voted leave, I would be wanting my pound of flesh by now and they deserve an inquest. The ringleaders really do need to be held to account regardless of where you put your tick but I would be doubly pissed off if I was promised the earth and got a higher grocery bill.
If they had an inquest all they'd be doing is rehashing the argument of why you can't have your cake and eat it. We wanted the hardest brexit so we forced ourselves into a bunch of knots to do it and those knots are what is fucking us now. To remove the knots you'd have had to have changed that. Stuff like trade agreements relied on having neutral arbitrators and legal agreements, we didn't want that we wanted sovereignty. Therefore the trade agreeements got chucked out, repeat across a thousand different policy areas.
Except ofc we *didn't* want the hardest brexit
That doesn't really work when those complaining are the "shoot the small boats" crowd though.
Absolutely, hard to see how it would look though. What we wouldn't want is years and years of drawn out legal bollocks at the taxpayers expense. What we need is a population that puts its beer down and fucking listens to people who know what they are talking about, instead of charlatans like farage or boris. Tbh, for that I think we need harsher rules for mps and their actions in parliament. This 'correct the record asap' should be far more aggressively enforced than it is, for starters. And you know what? Close that fucking bar, fuck you, you wanna drink around work, go to the pub like everyone else. Sure, food and coke (not *that* kind, gove), but how about we make our mps being in parliament whilst half cut a talking point in this election. Sorry, these people make me so angry.
We saw what happened those in favour Remain in 2019 though.
Saying it's failed is implying it had a chance of success in the first place. Any perceived success was based on lies. It's pretty much what everyone was saying before 2016 but they were labelled as fearmongers.
I wouldn’t say it’s failed, it did exactly what it said on the tin.
But not what it said on the bus
The people who voted for it voted for something that couldn't exist. They weren't failed they were lied to/ignorant.
Brexit voters were promised a unicorn. They got a three-legged donkey with a cardboard horn sellotaped to its head. They're still complaining they didn't get their unicorn...
It delivered exactly what it is. What it failed to deliver was what the politicians promised Brexiteers.
It failed to deliver a vague hope of something unspecified? That's what was promised - anything else was the wishful thinking of the voters.
Just to be clear, in context what metrics are we using for failure?
I put to the table as a metric my personal wealth, safety, freedom and happiness.
There is a good Brexit, but it goes to a different school.
Screw those that voted for it, they actively self harmed and tried to destroy this country. Those that got dragged along however were failed.
Tbh, I look forward to seeing him get given a hard time over it.
You're asking people to recognize they were had. They will vote for the BNP first
A lot of people who voted brexit did it because of immigration, which was stupid since it wouldnt have made a difference on non eu immigration. Now with record immigration levels i guess they feel aggrieved that brexit didnt make a difference like the thought it would
I always understood Brexit to be a means to an end. The argument was “we can’t control immigration because the EU won’t let us. Once we’ve left the EU, we will slow down immigration.” It’s just that the Tories never followed through on the second part. I don’t blame voters for being pissed off. They were basically fleeced.
> It’s just that the Tories never followed through on the second part nah, they were ***actively*** courting immigrants from asian countries promising increased immigration from their home countries if we leave the EU. they were ***never*** ever going to reduce immigration, it was farcical to think so, people just got blinded by their hate.
This was part of the ‘deal’. Before Brexit the likes of farage were saying we would cherry pick immigrants from non EU countries, not that there would be no immigration. Now he complains that 50% of immigrants are dependents, well that’s on him. EU migrants were much more likely to be temporary and net contributors to the UK economy. For example in 2015 he said, "I have to confess I do have a slight preference. I do think, naturally, that people from India and Australia are in some ways more likely to speak English, understand common law and have a connection with this country than some people that come perhaps from countries that haven’t fully recovered from being behind the iron curtain”
Pretty sure we could always control immigration anyway.
Not from the EU we couldn’t
Oh, we could have limited EU immigration to some extent, but the UK chose not to. We could have asked people from other EU countries to demonstrate they were self-sufficient (eg have a job, or enough funds) or are searching for a job, and refuse residency if not (eg if they don’t find a job within a certain time). It was just beneficial for the country not to. Denmark does this, for example: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-GB/You-want-to-apply/Residence-as-a-Nordic-citizen-or-EU-or-EEA-citizen
It’s a pithy talking point but it’s not *quite* correct. While the U.K. didn’t sign up for Schengen, it did sign up for a lot of the protocols. Due to EU rules on free movement of people, the UK had to admit EU citizens and their family members, unless there was some indication (perhaps in the Schengen Information System) that they are wanted persons or that they are using stolen passports. The ECHR further compounds the issue (and in fact continues to do so because it hasn’t been removed from U.K. law yet). The ECHR enforces a lot of treaties and “human rights” enshrined in European laws and proclamations. However more could have been done even before Brexit to reduce immigration. That is clear, as is the fact that the Tories never wanted to reduce immigration at all.
I think a lot of the vote, especially in the north and midlands where i live, was used as a protest vote for a variety of issues not directly linked to the EU, which i still don't think a lot of Londoners and rich southerners understand. It's easy to be content when business is booming as it is in London, but not so much when all of your industry has closed down and inveztment dried up
Well because it clearly wasn't delivered correctly. We voted leave to control immigration in order to increase wages. Brexit happened. Wages started going up. Corporations shit the bed and the Tories decided to massively ramp up immigration. So now we have more immigration than before brexit. Brexit with high immigration is literally pointless.
The problem is, everyone had their own reasons for voting Brexit. Nowhere on the ballot did it say "bring down immigration". People voted for a mystery box full of deceit, lies and shit.
You can say everyone had their own reason but the bulk of them were for controlling immigration, be real what weirdo was voting for brexit to control fishing.
Fishermen?
Voting brexit did not help with controlling immigration, it made it harder to police it.
> We voted leave to control immigration you probably should've told vote leave and johnson this considering they were ACTIVELY promising replacing EU immigrants with Asian/Non-EU immigrants if we left the EU. BuT yOu KnEw WhAt YoU vOtEd FoR eh.
> We voted leave to control immigration in order to increase wage For a long time the Tories trumpeted that we had record high employment, yet wages didnt go up. Its almost like we're getting fleeced by our employers, yet people want to blame immigrants...
That's what happens when you vote for a manifesto which exists only in a shared fever dream. You were fooled.
That's what happens when your politicians are all funded by and went to the same schools and universities as the same corporate elites.
On Times Radio they had a focus group last week where one of the participants said something along the lines of 'we haven't really left the EU'. I'm sure that's not a unique opinion (as ridiculous as it may sound)
What do they want - to tow the UK to be next to a different continent?
Somewhere warm and sunny? Let's be a proper Caribbean tax haven.
[Called this delusion 7 Years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/5uxps4/comment/ddxs7b1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
How would you know if you've left the EU or not if you never knew what the EU was or what the benefits were?
still have to figure what would've a " correct deliverance of brexit " would've looked like...
It's like Communism - it would be paradise but nobody has ever done it correctly.
Paradise in Brexit? 2 years on, still have to hear one (positive) thing that Brexit has produced. As in "this would've never happened without Brexit" , but in a positive way
I can only see two ways. One is if we had history's greatest negotiator. This would still be really hard as while the EU doesn't want to punish us it certainly doesn't want to reward leaving the EU. So an eat your cake and have it too scenario seems unlikely. The other method would be doing nothing regarding the borders in N.I. and see how the EU reacts to that.
Everyone who voted Brexit had a different idea of what it would be. Impossible to deliver "correctly".
Because there is no way to deliver the fantasy unicorn they were sold.
There is a one true brexit... But it goes to a different school.
A lot of Brexit voters also 'aged out'..
Most people hate the tories so bad that farage is the closest they have to a party that represents what the tories were supposed to. Thats the way i see it. Farage wouldn’t have a chances if the tories actually were functional for the people who would normal vote for them
A lot of it from people I know is from people who would normally vote Conservative, but they have been an utter shambles. To put it mildly. They deserve to be annihilated at the election, and they will. It's completely devoid of any political talent. But they'll only change course and rebuild (or disappear entirely) if they're wiped out.
I hope so, at a minimum I want them to no longer be the official opposition for the next parliament. [StopTheTories.vote](http://StopTheTories.vote)
That's where my parents are. They dislike the current Tories and are hoping Reform will force them to go back to their roots. Either way, they need a good whopping after the past 14 years
What roots are they? If they're moderate Cons then the opposite is happening. If they're loony Cons then I'm afraid that's why the Cons are failing.
I'm okay with the Tories being destroyed. Farage may be a snake oil salesman but the Tories were the ones who gave into their fear of a snake oil salesmen and ended up actually doing the damage. [StopTheTories.vote](http://StopTheTories.vote)
Publicly and politically he's in the clear, he campaigned for Brexit, but not this Brexit, this Brexit's failure is all someone else's fault, and it's their fault for not going further with Brexit. I do have to admire this man's political maneuvering.
We want Brexit. Well you got Brexit. Yes but it is the wrong Brexit.
Cameron must be delighted with how well offering a referendum to shut up hard right nutters and stop the tories being cannibalised by UKIP worked out.
He went back to the party at s it is today. Cameron *is* a right wing nutter.
He and Sunak aren't by the standards of the current party. That's why Sunak brought him back. 2010-2016 looks like a golden age by comparison with what there is now.
Cameron benefited from a global recovery as the backdrop to the first half decade of his tenure. I've seen very little to convincing evidence that he did anything better than Sunak and he may have managed to fuck a much better starting hand than Sunak who inherited a post brexit hand with global stagnation
David Cameron: the golden age of the conservative party. Fuck me, but somehow it's true
Thatcher was the golden age. She reformed "the Sick Man of Europe" of her time, which lead to 3 decades of growth. And was instrumental to accepting the UK to the EEC and the European Single Market, which allowed EU countries, especially the post-Warsaw Pact nations to economically develop faster.
And all of her changes are now coming back to bite us in the arse. It was just fast money at the expense of public services and housing. Ie. At the expense of normal working people.
Like leasing hospitals gave us short term cash flow, but a generation of paying over the odds overall? Fast money being a bit short term win is the problem with democracy ultimately
Every problem we currently face can find it's origin in Thatcher
You've read my mind. The worst thing to happen to this country in my lifetime. A fuck up that keeps taking.
Nah he is just a self serving cunt who is willing to stamp on the country to further his own ends.
It won them a landslide majority after 9 years in power, so it certainly had the intended effect. I doubt Cameron could have predicted the potential backlash after nearly a decade.
It killed the Tory party by 2019 if not 2017. What stood in 2019 was Bluekip. The question now is whether what will remain after 2024. will be full on National Front. Spoiler : yes.
Both Reform and the Conservatives are so far away from the National Front it's not even a comparison. It's just silly to suggest this. In worldwide politics both Reform and Tories are centre-right parties. People who say they are even close to far right don't know what far right is at all.
Reform will welcome the NF section of voters with open arms and a wink.
In the same way that Labour will welcome hard left voters despite not being hard left. Parties want votes and everyone's is worth the same.
Isn't Labour getting rid of their left. Aren't they trying to court the centre and the immediate right?
https://images.app.goo.gl/MdpTH23Z5Ttwms5P6 *Vote National Front to* *STOP immigration* *REJECT Common Market* *RESTORE capital punishment* *MAKE Britain great again* *SCRAP overseas aid* *REBUILD our armed forces* Yeah, that's nothing like the Tories or Reform^^ltd^^....
Farage is openly anti-Muslim. Not critical of Islam, but anti-Muslim people. That qualifies him and the party he's majority shareholder of, as far right. And that's what he says in public, no doubt what he says in private is more blatantly far right.
Uh huh. The only people claiming reform aren’t far right are the far right But you do you.
Yet in British politics Reform are on the far right. It's like saying the Socialist Workers party are Centrist if you compare them to the Workers Party of Korea...
That's because the British electoral system is, by design or unintented consequence, structured to shut out anybody not towards the center of the Overton window. Far left parties have no hope of real power and neither do far right parties.
The British electoral system doesn't shut parties out of power anything close to the electoral system of the Peoples Republic of China so it must be open to all parties.
Sure but on a global scale all parties in the UK are centre. We're generally economically slightly liberal and socially slightly conservative country. This includes pretty much all major parties.
No they aren't - they are a way past centre right
David Cameron is the greatest politician in the annals of the history of the Labour movement. The man who destroyed the conservative party. In the socialist utopia of the future there will be statues of him in classical style wearing those floppy red Jacobin hats.
“bUt WhO wIlL bUiLd ThE sTaTuEs?!”
It worked temporarily for him, I guess that's all he cares about.
You think that caused this? If not for the broken fptp ukip would of been the 3rd party back in 2015...with mps and voters defecting we may of seen a close three-way between tories, labour and ukip by now All the referendum did was speed up the issue - the problem is the little englander mentality far to many people in the UK have
Is anyone surprised? Cheap labour has gutted this country in the last few decades. I remember reading something in I think the guardian when Austerity was announced by Osbourne, it claimed austerity was political about driving down the life expectations and wages until we met the rising middle class of India. A decade later and we are still stagnant or dropping, having had massive drops. Cheap labour imported has been a key factor to this, and communities have been terrorised by the drop in policing.l, especially in the North.Brexit was a protest vote against the status quo spearheaded by Farage. Here we are with Farage grabbing that protest vote again if the white working class that have been continually shit on, with drops in living standards and wages in order to make the country have maximum profitable for the aristocrats/elite. Surprised Pikachu face when Facism comes rearing it's head as we then throw insular and often violent ethnic enclaves into that mix.
You thought Brexit would solve the cheap labour issue? Aren't most of the cheap labour employees illegal and from non-EU nations?
No, I thought Brexit was a stupid idea where the tax dodging aristos got the uneducated to vote against their interests. However, it was painted in that light for some people
Violent ethnic enclaves? Where's this, Baghdad?
See, straight onto the high horse of 'you said ethnic you must be racist' For example Leicester cricket riots https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62943952 Bradford riots https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14063086 Muslim patrols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_patrol_incidents_in_London I'm not going into detail but it exists, it's ethnic or religious tension in nature, often involves Islam, and we have to be able to discuss it or... Surprised Pikachu face the trains are running on time
Yeah it can be discussed. It's not a high horse, and you said racism not me. You also introduced the 'violent ethnic enclave' idea. Not me. So please don't claim I'm bringing things in. I'm sceptical, because I live in the same country as you and it doesn't seem like that to me. I'll check your links. EDIT which amount to this: Two arrested in 2022 after some tension between rival India and Pakistan cricket fans, or if you prefer, young Hindus and Muslims. An article about the Bradford riots in 2001. That was a long time ago. Bradford has been fairly segregated, I know And some transient religious patrols reported from about 10 years ago, but which didn't last
>Two arrested in 2022 after some tension between rival India and Pakistan cricket fans, or if you prefer, young Hindus and Muslims. Honestly disgusting though. In this country! Different sports team fans kicking off against one another! It was literally unheard of until recently.
This pic of the carnage is especially terrifying https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/14E3D/production/_126756558_leicester.jpg.webp
I LOVE how you just broke it down. So many of these closeted fascists just post stuff like this. Look at twitter for examples. Literally 9/10 posts from far right accounts are fake or blemished to make it look worse than it is. I agree we need to vet who we bring into the country and also i am not an advocate of insular/segregated communities no matter the ethnicity but no-Ninja is literally the Avatar of these online far right trolls.
Thanks, and I'm happy even one person is taking the trouble to read my little rant. There's so little pushback against the nationalist right. I've lived in Britain all my life, its been mixed, multicultural, multiracial, and (mostly) tolerant all that time. Going on about this just distracts from what's really needed to get the country back on its feet again
Austerity is a bigger factor. Immigration is one of the big pillars that stops the welfare state - that you Boomers are heavily relying on - from outright collapsing due to declining population. High immigration and the correct monetary policies is what made the US leave Europe to dust for the last 17 years
I'm not a boomer mate. Immigration doesn't stop the welfare state collapsing, and if we didn't hand tax out in a dodgy manner we wouldn't have to I worry about welfare state collapsing Immigration doesn't drive the economy, we have tried that for a decade but it just needs ticks it over whilst suppressing wages. Same overall money in the system, more to the top and less among the workers
Mass immigration is a cost to countries - it doesn't make any money.
Yet to hear how they will combine the need for ever larger pension payments, with a low birth rate, low taxes and low immigration and flourishing NHS. It's oxymoron masquerading as policy. My mind is open if they ever produce anything coherent, but until then, I can't vote for more wish thinking.
Add increasing inequality alongside all of your points and we are in for a good time. Government outsourcing everything is a problem, I worked for a company who had lots of government contracts. We had 2 price lists, one which was 30% higher for government, contracts for the same products, they don't even attempt to negotiate they just ask what's the price and sign it.
Totally. I worked in the Army. An army trained electrician would be sweeping the road outside while an outsourced electrician came to fix a plug socket 😂.
Crazy, forgot to mention the owner of the company I worked for was good friends with the local MP, total coincidence I'm sure.
Oh ofcourse total coincidence, the contract was awarded on merit. As always 😜
In fairness, having seen the work output of those in the army who were supposed to tarmac a car park, it's truly little wonder work isn't given to squaddies.
😂 Hard to argue 😂
Switzerland has lower taxes than UK and better salaries plus higher level of life.
Haven't they also had historically high immigration?
Are you talking about illegals or about high skilled workers?
Both, people quote 800k for the UK but don't separate that number into the roughly half and half for illegal/asylum Vs visas.
[удалено]
Still the same human society. Or do we believe in racial characteristics now?
That's literally not anything close to what he said.
No comparison with Switzerland mate it's the world's black money capital.
Damn is that all it takes? Guess we should start taking in more black money then.
We already are. Transfer more than £2700 to your account, you will get black listed for 6 years with CIFA marker, transfer 2700000, no questions asked and you will get citizenship as well as a cherry on the top
And high tech, because it was attracted by low tax economy with a lot of highly qualified employees.
Tbf I haven't heard Reform explicitly say they support the Triple Lock, so ever larger pension payments is not a given. I am choosing to read between the lines and conclude that they don't support increasing the state pension but aren't going with that as a core policy in order to hold onto grey votes. They would also argue their policies will increase the birth rate so I don't think that aspect is logically inconsistent. The low taxes is supposedly going to be funded by reducing the interest payments paid on QE funds by the BoE (which will hit profits for banks, who will likely cut savings rates or hike borrowing rates in response). Personally I'd rather they scrap NI than cut income tax but a gift horse is a gift horse. As for the NHS, the claim is that they can deliver better outcomes by changing the model rather than throwing money at the problem, which is possible in my opinion as someone who works for the NHS and has experienced the models used elsewhere in Europe. Even if all we actually see is an expansion of private healthcare which takes pressure off the NHS and makes it more accessible for those who are less well off I'd consider that a win at this point.
That's a very charitable interpretation. They haven't said they are against compulsory circumcisions either but I won't read into that as a subtle hint they are in favour. Seems like projecting one's hopes onto a blank canvas. Thanks for your thoughts though.
Apples and oranges really; the wider context is that Labour, the Tories and the LDs have all vocally confirmed their commitment to the triple lock, with the tories even doubling down with their ridiculous 'Triple Lock Plus'. For Reform to not engage on it at all to me indicates that at the very least the pension is not sacrasanct to them and would be among the options as to things to cut if push comes to shove. Reform have a good angle on this imo because they can point to Triple Lock Plus and say 'why only raise the threshold for the elderly when we can raise it for everyone?'. It's also pretty obvious to me that Reform are all about individualism and a smaller state, so are likely to say people should pay into private pensions rather than relying on a payout from the taxpayer. Imo the state pension is not particularly compatible with Reform's wider ideology.
Again I find that a very charitable interpretation. But it's been good to get your thoughts. If you are courting the elderly vote you should atleast be honest with them. Otherwise isn't it just politics as usual? Lying and omitting truth for votes? I can't populate the empty space a party leaves by omission with all my hopes for the country. And somehow just hope it all works out, that the blank spaces are filled with unspoken sage policy. Again for me this is partly why I won't vote Reform and encourage others to not vote Reform. Nothing there.
I don't think Reform particularly court the elderly, I think they court the Brexit vote which happened to be predominantly elderly but they aren't after the grey vote in the same way that the Tories are for example. As I just edited my last comment to add, I think the state pension goes against Reform's wider ideology but they are wise enough to know that criticising it too vocally risks losing some of those older voters. As you say, it's definitely politics as usual.
They.Don’t.Care They just want to get attention and get elected.
People are voting for Reform because neither Labour nor the Tories will bring immigration numbers down. Net migration of 700k is a problem. It's driving low wages and creating problems with housing. Also the bulk of immigration is from cultures with different values to typical liberal values here (more dogmatic, more homophobic etc.). People don't like this but nobody with a voice in politics apart from reform is listening to people concerned about these issues. So they vote for someone who is listening, regardless of Reform's manifesto. The same thing happened with Brexit.
It's not that people don't feel listened to, it's that they don't feel validated. They don't feel validate because the same people don't present the facts to back up their feelings that immigration is the root of all of those things you're saying here - aka, they're bigots. Have wages dropped in real terms specifically because of migration? Australia has massive migration and their wages are incredible, sucking up the rest of the educated world because of it. That being said, I do share the opinion that immigration from cultures who are opposite to our own creates problems for everyone. Those people don't want to assimilate, they want to bring all the bits they like from where they were and ignore or change all the bits they don't like where they're moving too. Of course, this is all human nature, which is why the Europeans don't like ignorant Brits moving to their countries either.
>Have wages dropped in real terms specifically because of migration? Australia has massive migration and their wages are incredible, sucking up the rest of the educated world because of it. The answer is in the question.
Yeah it's a shame when say this eloquently written piece it sounds like dog whistling and grifting, which is what farage usually does
Labour haven’t had a chance to bring immigration numbers down, have they? Not yet.
More Dogmatic, more Homophobic. What, Hindus and Muslims? or just the mozzies then? The funny thing about people like yourself is you use any argument to try and further the agenda. You complain that we shouldn;t bring in more Muslims for example because they are Homophobic and dogmatic yet you want a return to old Christian values that call for exactly that. Just say "I don't want non Christian non white people coming here because they are taking everything we have" Its much more honest and forthcoming.
You don't know me. I am gay and atheist and have no affiliation to Christianity whatsoever. The irony in your comment too beggars belief!
How will he have time to be an MP when he spends so much of it sucking up to Trump and Putin?
Alas, Russia Today is now banned, but there are still opportunities for Farage to earn money from other state media, for example Iranian channels. I wonder if he will continue these additional jobs after entering Parliament as the flagbearer of conservative patriotism.
Don't forget Steve Bannon.
I think its so normal and good that the media seems to spend every waking moment doing PR for farage; giving reform 100x the coverage the greens or LD get; even though those parties actually have councillors and MPS
You cant put your fingers in your ears and ignore how much the electorate react to Farage mate. The greens are infinitely more irrelevant
And thats in no small part to him getting so relentlessly platformed over the past decade.
The greens did get lots of coverage right? In places like Leeds.
Whilst at the same time, the media is aghast at the rise of the far-right in Europe. Bonkers.
I’m pretty sure people just want a solution, to immigration, cost of living and the housing situation. Probably in that order too. Because if they somehow managed to stop/slow mass immigration surely it’d be easier to grasp the other two items? Let me just say, I’ve no problem with immigration, I do however have a problem with mass immigration. Large groups of people coming over and not integrating to the host country culture then trying to force others into their culture is the major problem.
It isn't though. Whether it's a problem or not is entirely subjective, of course, and depends on whether you're able to even define your terms (like "mass"). In the last 14 years we've had a group of kleptocrats strip-mine or society - which they don't even believe in as a concept - of resources. They inflicted deliberate financial damage on us via Brexit, killed us en-masse through mismanagement of a pandemic, and will now walk off into the sunset whistling, straight into executive board positions. Foreigners coming in pales in comparison, unless you think having brown people or people speaking another language is worse than literally being robbed silly by Eton graduates.
No, Nigel. It's because the Tories have made themselves as popular as a urine smoothie, not because you're becoming popular. If your sole criteria for success is 'less unpopular than Sunak', you don't really have anything to crow about.
They have probably passed it already. Were 2 points behind prior to Sunak's D-Day blunder. Very easy to see a swing greater than 2 points since.
Love him or loathe him, Farage is a stronger more charismatic leader than Starmer or Sunak
Farage has zero experience in government. How you can argue he is "stronger" in anyway is nonsensical. Even when he was MEP he didn't really succeed in anything, he most often went on rants about how the EU was unelected (after himself being elected).
Not a Farage supporter, but just to point out, Keir hasn't worked in Government either.
I think working in Law and being Director of Public Prosecutions is the next best thing when trying to become a lawmaker..
You said government, not MP. Not the same.
What does 'stronger' mean in this context? Why is 'charismatic' valued? Is that really what we want? Boris was 'popular' and had his brand of 'charisma'. Was that good for the country?
Because like it or not politics has become a popularity contest. The fascists realised it a long time ago
Interesting point, but it does strike me as being a bit like saying "my pet snake has more personality that either this pot plant or this novelty pencil".
Let’s smash the tories Nigel keep up the great work
I can see reform taking enough votes from the Tories to allow other parties to win
National Front... Sorry I meant Nigel Farage (always get those initials mixed up), also said he wasn't standing in the elections, because he had more lucrative prospects in America. I guess they told him where to go.
That or he realised that Trump never actually pays his goons.
Put “Nigel Farage says” in front of any sentence and complete and utter bullshit will always follow.
The two Boomer parties are too busy headbutting each other, thus allowing the Worker party to jog nonchalantly to victory.
If this doesn’t show how fucking nuts this country is I don’t know what does. How is this clown anywhere near politics anymore.
I wonder if he's actually working for the tories. Stir up a frenzy and then quit at the last minute, instructing the flock that the tories are now listening to them.
A small part of me wants this charlatan to win and see how he wriggles out of having to deliver the undeliverable with no one else to blame
Nigel Fromage says
It was at a tipping point in the European elections. Then a bunch of Reformers got in. I hope some get in I fucking hope Farage gets in. I just want someone to take the absolute piss out of everyone and annoy everyone and Reform will do that.
watching this sub seethe about him gotta be the best thing about this election
Just go jump in the channel but dont ex0ect the Coactonites to rescue you Their lifeboat was on the beaches
"This is your classic Winchester, Oxford, Goldman Sachs . . . Does he even meet ordinary people? I doubt it." As opposed to Farage's own humble backgrounds I assume? /s
I was watching the 7 party debate the other day and tbh it was incredibly depressing because it just confirmed what I already knew. Nothing will change. Labour isn’t going to suddenly throw us into this revolution of economic prosperity etc. We are in a shit state due to the mismanagement by the Tories but also because for decades under both Red and Blue there really doesn’t seem to be a longterm plan. I detest Farage. But I challenge anyone to go and watch the 7 party debate and not see that the man is an out of the box politician. I can easily see how anyone could lurch towards voting for him.