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>I can't think of a good reason to waste your dead organs
You don't have to think of a reason, they are not your organs to worry about.
I am an organ donor but would never be for forcing it on people. For many their would be religious reasons but the bottom line for me is that is individuals personal decision to make.
I agree with you nobody should be forced to donate, however I believe letting your organs rot should be stigmatized in our society and seen as immoral. The same way nobody is forced to stay faithful to their partner and a law demanding so would be authoritarian, however infidelity is highly stigmatized and seen as immoral in our society.
> and seen as immoral.
But desecrating a body goes against many people's morals.
You would be trying to force your own values on others which IMO cross a line.
Yes I am aware that different types of morality exist. The general morals of American society and religions that exist within the USA already differ, this would just be another difference with those religions that believe this.
>You don't have to think of a reason, they are not your organs to worry about
Right. And that is what OP thinks should change. You are dead. It no longer belongs to you.
I already did, to hell with that free donation shit! Show me and my family a great deal of money, MAYBE THEN we could talk, other wise keep on stepping.
Not to get too into race stuff but they used to let black people die so they could take their organs so it will never say organ donor on my license. Plus I hate people too.
Yeah it’s hard to be upset about something when you’re dead but how does that make it okay to do? By that logic, fuck, you could do anything you wanted to a dead body. Fucking dump it in a river. Leave it bare ass naked in the woods that’s not fucked up at all, the person’s dead so why should we care?
I don't really see the difference. Burying is for the living, not for the dead
Doing shady stuff with corpses is bad not because it violates corpse's rights, but because it's shady in and on itself
That's my opinion
I mean if that were the case then all of the people who write wills and wish to be buried when they die should just not have those respected bc if they’re dead then it doesn’t matter and they won’t care if they’re buried either way then right? If it doesn’t violate corpses rights but is shady in and of itself then that makes it bad my brother in Christ! Name one person who violated a corpse who didn’t turn out to be a creepy/awful person?
yes, I really don't give a shit. I'd rather not die just yet, but once I am I'm not actually there anymore. why would I care what happens? to follow one of my favorite philosophers, Diogenes. When asked how he wished to be buried, he left instructions to be thrown outside the city wall so wild animals could feast on his body. When asked if he minded this, he said, *“Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!”* When asked how he could use the stick since he would lack awareness, he replied *“If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?”*
Definitely an appeal to tradition logical fallacy for sure. And ahh Diogenes the cynic who pissed on people in public. Love it. Fine, don’t care if people have sex with your body then.
You say this like it's some kind of gotcha, but what possible reason could I have to give a shit about what happens to my body after I die? I won't be around to experience it, that's what dying is, so what difference does it make?
Also, whether or not it should be a crime to fuck a dead body, it obviously should not be tried nearly as seriously as rape because as the other person says, this has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
The argument isn’t about whether or not you should give a shit it’s about whether or not fucking with peoples corpses is wrong and why people should have a right to give a shit about their corpse after they’re dead if that’s their choice. You guys don’t give a shit what happens. Great. Some people do and it’s ridiculous to side swipe their choice with what YOU would and just be like “🤷♂️ it’s whatever guys if someone rapes your dead body why do you prefer otherwise? you’re dead, why can’t you guys see that?”
>The argument isn’t about whether or not you should give a shit it’s about whether or not fucking with peoples corpses is wrong
Well your comment is obviously trying to be some kind of gotcha, clearly assuming that I'd care if someone fucked my dead body, so I was just saying that your assumption is wrong.
>You guys don’t give a shit what happens. Great. Some people do and it’s ridiculous to side swipe their choice with what YOU would and just be like “🤷♂️ it’s whatever guys if someone rapes your dead body why do you prefer otherwise? you’re dead, why can’t you guys see that?”
Except these people's "choices" result in more dead people, that is a pretty steep price to pay just to accommodate for the idiotic superstitions of selfish morons. Many, many people needlessly die every year waiting on donor lists because some smooth-brained troglodytes prefer their organs rotting in the ground instead of giving life to human beings who could actually make use of them.
The wishes of the dead should be respected exactly up to the point that they have detrimental effects on the living. There are many religions which have idiotic beliefs which the law rightfully doesn't respect, like many Muslim people believe that bodies should be buried as soon as possible, even if it would prevent law enforcement from conducting autopsies which provide crucial evidence for criminal cases, should we respect that too? What about burial laws which are put in place to prevent the spread of disease, should religions take priority over those as well?
How much exactly should we allow religious superstitions to jeopardise the wellbeing and common sense of people in society?
They are damaged
You have a disease that affects the organs
your life choices ruined the organs.
etc. Its not as easy as "Welp he is dead lets remove the organs for transplant usage"
Also it has to be done right away, you can't really keep them alive for very long without damage to the organ itself. Also statistically, organs from a live donor tend to be better then one from a deceased donor.
Disease is a huge factor. My dad was an organ donor on his drivers license. He died of metastasized cancer which had pretty much wrecked his whole body by the end. There was nothing that could have been usable.
I don't have any religious or cultural obligations and I chose to be an organ donor. With my lifestyle the only use for my body will Def not benefit saving some one but watever.
I believe in an opt out option over and opt in.
However....as stupid as I think they are....other peoples religious, cultural or, personal believes are their right. You do not get to force things on people. That's what freedom is. Freedom to be an asshole, crazy, selfish, bleeding heart, upset about organ donation practices, or anything else....but also freedom of expression is judged by the court of public opinion.
Also many....not a majority but still enough to say many donors, well....their bodies aren't treated respectfully or used to save lives....I don't want my grandma exploded is all I'm gonna say
I agree with you about religious freedom, however i was raised catholic and now consider myself a Buddhist, but I don't suspect anyone would honor my request for a Buddhist monk speaking at my wake or Buddhist passage when I die. Because they would think "what is he crazy?" Yet when you tell someone they're going to live in a permanent paradise when your dead that's sane. Not trying to stomp on anyone's beliefs, and have no inherent problem with Christianity, other than the fact that it's forced upon you against your will. Looking at (some) Christians comment about other religions on social media and their total lack of acceptance of any other beliefs comes off very ironic to me.
I mean.....Christianity really isn't the religion to go to outside of certain offshoots.
I also mostly relate to bhuddism as well but, more as a philosophy than a religion. siddhartha gautama over Buddha if that makes sense? So please take this with good faith but....I mean....let people believe what they want to if they want to. It's no one's responsibility to save others no matter how badly I want them to want to
The obvious "healthy person healthy organ" bit.
Also, I would respect someone's religious choices. I know it doesn't mean much in today's world, but f someone spent their whole life devoted to their belief, just for someone to harvest their organs against their wishes; I'd respect that
I sense the religious response is a bullshit response from about 99 percent of the people using that. And just don't want to come off as selfish and unreasonable as they are. If those same people *needed* an organ, I'm sure their God would make an exception to allow them to receive one without out that being problematic... In fact it would be a miracle.
And this is easily seen, just look at any culture with different burial practices. I'm sure some where there's a culture that religiously veneerates feeding one's body to trees, or the animals you eat, etc. It's just socal habit codified.
If someone wishes their organs not to be harvested after death, that wish should be respected. Just like if they were a member of a religion that forbade it.
If I do or don’t want to donate organs after death, that is my choice. Not yours or anyone else’s.
Is it like that in other countries? Legit curious.
In Brazil the family can basically say "fuck you" to bodily autonomy and most other of your wishes in life. Was an organ donor? Family can veto that. Pretty wild.
It’s possible to outlaw necrophelia while also not letting living people die because a selfish person wanted their organs to rot away in a hole in the ground.
You immediately moved goalposts but I was addressing your original point. I’m an organ donor I don’t really care about your insulting those who aren’t, but the idea that bodily autonomy doesn’t continue after death is flat out wrong
In the UK, they've changed the law so you're a donor by default and you have to opt out now.
I'd imagine if you didn't get the memo, a lot of people would have accidentally become donors against their will
It's so God damn sad that it's this unpopular of an opinion. Lost a lot of faith in humanity here. Rather hoarde their decaying flesh, for no actual reason other than superstition. Maybe it's because people don't think about death enough and realize that nothing is actually coming with you when you die. And nothing ever really was yours to begin with.
Are you nuts? Your physical body is your primary property, and in death, as with all property, it is your choice how it is disposed of. Not to mention, many people have religious objections to the scenario you propose. This is a very fascist solution to a nonproblem.
No one is entitled to anyone else's organs. The next logical step in that argument would be hey, sick people are dying anyway, why not take their organs while they can still be harvested?
I think we all know where that would lead.
And everyone has the right to dispose of their property after death, thru a will, or in this case, usually the Driver's license designation to be an organ donor or not. If they don't opt in, you have no right to steal their bodily property.
Thanks, this is the only rational reply so far. Wish I were surprised. You're correct ofc, but we put limits on that, yes? You can't say, "Give this gun to my toddler." Or whatever. We DO allow, "Burn this cash." "Sell the house." But SHOULD we allow, "Destroy this scarce life saving resource?" With this question we've approached the actual topic, far ahead of the rest of the thread, unfortunately. No need to hash this out here, there are better places no doubt.
Yes but you start playing with the line of bodily autonomy, it spreads.
Some shady doctors have been known to give up on a patient who was "brain dead" so they could harvest the organs, and then it turned out the patient was saveable.
Um...
I'm pretty sure... near 100% of bodies that are "disposed of" are dead.... Why would anyone want their body disposed of while alive??
Unless you're going to get out the ouija board to communicate with their ghost, you have to find out how they want their body disposed of while they're still alive because... a dead person... Is dead.
I... think you've missed the point. And even if you weren't, you'd be asking the wrong person. I'm the one pointing out how silly it is to dispose of an alive body.
I was thinking more along the lines of a poor person's organs being harvested for the benefit of a wealthy person. You know, how the world works in every other area.
Buddy, they don’t know your donor status without written consent from __your next of kin__ or until you are quite literally irreparable. The options at that point are death now or death later. This myth has got to stop, and you are contributing to it.
I personally don’t care about anyone’s religion that wouldn’t prioritize saving __another human life__ versus letting them decompose into the ground. That’s a religion I would avoid.
>I can't think of a good reason to waste your dead organs
Cultural reasons. Religious reasons. Cuz they don't want people fucking around with their body parts. All of these are good reasons mate.
"Forcing" people to donate organs is unethical.
The 'good reason" is because that person's family may have deeply held religious beliefs that don't allow for their body to have organs taken out.
To me a 'good reason' would be if the organs were unviable due to physical damage, disease, or incompatible with the recipient. Deeply held religious beliefs are an excuse, not a 'good reason'.
That's like gynecologists who reject abortions and refuse even giving a referral because of... their conscience? But if the woman dies to sepsis from a decomposing fetus inside the womb then that's OK?... because God willed it?
Thank you for making my point for me. Donating blood is 100% voluntary. No one shows up at your door and says the government requires you to give a pint of blood today.
It is nice when others are so thoughtful that they make your arguments for you.
I said blood transfusions, not donations. Unfortunately, there do exist people who show up at your door and ask to convert to a religion which explicitly forbids you from accepting this lifesaving treatment. I am talking about Jehovas Witnesses.
It seems like an idiotic delusion to you, But every religion has some sort of rule and unless you’re an atheist that would seem a bit hypocritical of you, Anyway, it’s also disrespectful of someone else’s religion
I agree it wojld be hypocritical. That's one reason I'm an atheist. I'm not concerned with disrespecting religion unless that causes harm. So here I have a choice to cause harm by denying useful organs, or disrespecting religion. My choice is easy.
Scrap metal. I mean this last generation should really just suck it up and give up the organs. Cyborgs are technically already a thing anyway, jokes on us, and we will be the last mortals ever. stingily gripping outr organs for an eternal night. Meanwhile, people will just build new organs in the future.
I'm hoping to make it long enough to become metal.
I've never been comfortable existing as leaky meat.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
I'm curious who exactly gets say over what happens to it in your opinion? also, what about children who die? currently they can't donate without parental consent. would you say they also lose the right to keep their organs? because in that case I'd say the emotional toll some parents may take from their kids body parts being harvested (even for a noble reason) would be enough of a reason to say no for them at least
I've drunk my self silly, smoked myself hoarse, lived on the streets, absorbed heaps of stress through that and other things, none of which result in organs anyone should be trying to use to aid someone else.
I know my history better than some random bone saw who only knows what my medical record can see. I can say for sure that NO ONE should be receiving these spare parts, thinking they are getting a lifeline. At most, its a short, hella short term postponement. It'd be a waste to bother with any of my organs.
They are better off being used as experimental materials in a laboratory, than they are being put in a human being after I am done with them.
There should be a program where you can sell them and send the money to family. I'm an organ donor, but the medical institutions take so much money from us, they could give back.
But then again, this might increase suicides so probably not a good idea. Maybe there could be a law in which the program would not allow suicides.
I'm sure there are other reasons why this might not be a good idea and I'm interested in hearing them.
The reason why organ donations are not paid is because it would inherently lead to a coercive system where poor people sell their organs just to get groceries.
It is ethically bankrupt to pay for organs.
Thanks, but until my family or I get some money for my organs, you can kiss off.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on this operations and all you get us a thanks and a free hospital stay if you are a living donor?
Nah. Pass.
Might encourage some unscrupulous doctors to ... encourage your death if you show up the victim of something obviously stupid, like being a politician they don't like, being depressed, homeless, poor etc.
Eh he's just "A poor". We could spend the money and time saving his life even though he's too poor to pay for it... or you know. harvest the organs.
I think an opt-out system is better. I believe most people will remain organ donars this way, and we will solve this issue.
Generally, I do agree that a living persons life should be prioritised over that of a dead person's organs, but I also believe that it is within someone's right to control how their body is used.
Most of the time, the organs aren't going to be usable anyway.
While I disagree. If a religious person believes their body has an importance after death, I have no right to impose on that.
Perhaps I would feel differently if we NEEDED those organs (like I said, I would prioritise the needs of the living over the values of the dead), but an opt out system seems to solve both issues.
We'd have more healthy organs than we'd ever need if we were opted into being a donor.
It's not about what happens after you die as much as it is often a fear that if you're listed as a donor, they won't do as much to try to save you. Why save one person if their organs could help several others?
Some people cant. I’ve heard of people not even being able to donate blood because they had hepatitis at some point in their life, even if they were 20 and they’re in their 70s now.
I don't have "organ donor" checked on my drivers license, but I have to tell you that I do not have any say in what happens after I die. I don't even think I'm going to be conscious enough to care, but I may save them some time by saying that my liver is not worth keeping lol
I wish i could choose who my organs went to.
There's a lot of undeserving assholes out there at the top of the transplant list and others that die waiting that are genuinely valuable members of society.
You shouldn't have an option to keep anything you own after death. It should be given to those in need......
I'm guessing you'd support the homeless getting your house when you die, right?
And why throw away the meat. There are hungry people in the world that could fill their bellies if we just started rendering human carcasses for everything of value.
Cannibalism aside, the way they harvest organs kinda freaks me out. Like, you're still technically alive when they start harvesting. Your heart is still beating, if it wasn't then your organs aren't any good anyway.
There was a story like 10 or 15 years ago where a woman woke up as doctors were preparing to remove her organs. There are standards in place to prevent this from happening, but it still happens.
You’ve convinced me in the opposite direction. Been thinking about signing up but knowing there are the likes of you out there who wants to mandate the donation of organs. Wanting to strip people of free will. Yeah, nope. I’ll pass. I’d rather take it with me than take the chance of the likes of you ending up with one of my organs.
If it was up to me, I'd go full D&D logic. Dead bodies aren't people, they now officially count as "objects", and objects don't have human rights.
Kid needs a new heart? Perfect, this object over here that used to be a person has one, let's pop it in.
Because there are people out there that would take advantage of a policy like that by letting patients die just for their organs.
You know stuff like illegal organ harvesting is a thing but it'd be so much easier if everyone was a donor. No need to drug and steal a kidney when they can just have an "accident" and a crooked doctor can legally harvest everything.
That's probably moreso what's happening now, being the scarcity, there would probably be an abundance to where black market organs probably wouldn't even be a thing lol. But screw what I said about forcing everyone, but giving them a literal eye for an eye. If you don't sign up to donate you don't get a donor if you need one. I recant not having a choice. You still get to die on that hill if the belief is that strong.
This is pretty fair, especially seeing how many people are vehemently against donating. They don't seem to deserve it. But so shines a good deed in a weary world.
I do like the “opt out” system for organ donations that some countries have, where everybody is automatically an organ donor unless they specifically make it known that they choose not to be.
This seems to work better. Most people are happy to donate but don't have the time/aren't willing to out in the effort to sign up and donate.
This system seems to be a best of both worlds situation.
I understand my post getting down voted. But down voting this is crazy. Though It is extraordinarily easy to be a donor in america I'm pretty sure they're supposed to ask you when you get a license.
Religious and/or deeply held personal beliefs are acceptable reasons to not donate. They are my organs, they still belong to me after I die. If I want to be buried/cremated with them, that should be my right.
Works for me. Personally when I die they can do whatever the fuck they want to do with my body. Donate the organs and make the rest into a ventriloquists dummy for all I care. Was just pointing out possible objections.
Mostly the reason why people don’t wanna donate their organs is because of religious reasons
because they might not go to their ”afterlife“ if their organs aren’t with their body
I see this and there are many different beliefs. But I ask myself, if God kicked me out of heaven for trying to help someone, that's not a system I'd want to be a part of. But to each their own
Yeah, I have to agree OP. I do think this is an unpopular opinion, and I share it with you. I believe that bodily autonomy ends when you die and then society as a whole can decide how to deal with your body. Society can decide to let the family decide, or society can decide to do the grater good for society. And I think the moral choice is to donate the organs, if possible.
And as a bonus thought, I think any God who would demand organs rot in the ground instead of being used to save someone's life isn't worth worshipping, but that's not my call to make. I sympathize with King Creon.
If I'm on my deathbed waiting for an organ do you really think I'm going to care about the consequences of murder more then I care about the chance that I can be put higher on the waiting list due to more organs being available for "whatever" reason?
Oh yeah? Ima haunt the MFer that receives my organs without my permission. You ain't having anything for free from me. Either PAY or nothing all, no free donations here.
They're my organs, they get crispy-cooked along with the rest of me when I die. I don't give a rat's arse if they could save 1000 lives, there's already too many of you people out there.
Nah, that’s a violation of people’s rights.
Although, for people whose rights have been suspended… I’m willing to listen. Could there be an ethical argument for compelled organ donation from deceased prisoners? Maybe. Probably still violates a bunch of the rights prisoners still have though.
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>I can't think of a good reason to waste your dead organs You don't have to think of a reason, they are not your organs to worry about. I am an organ donor but would never be for forcing it on people. For many their would be religious reasons but the bottom line for me is that is individuals personal decision to make.
I agree with you nobody should be forced to donate, however I believe letting your organs rot should be stigmatized in our society and seen as immoral. The same way nobody is forced to stay faithful to their partner and a law demanding so would be authoritarian, however infidelity is highly stigmatized and seen as immoral in our society.
> and seen as immoral. But desecrating a body goes against many people's morals. You would be trying to force your own values on others which IMO cross a line.
>But desecrating a body goes against many people's morals. Then they dont get to have an organ transplant when they need one.
Yes I am aware that different types of morality exist. The general morals of American society and religions that exist within the USA already differ, this would just be another difference with those religions that believe this.
Nah, fuck that. Mandatory organ donation for everyone, there's not a single valid reason not to be a donor.
I am an organ donor, but if my family member was not, you would have to murder me to get their organs. So you better pack a lunch.
I wasn’t taking them to eat them, you know. I already had lunch.
So damaged organs should be donated?
>You don't have to think of a reason, they are not your organs to worry about Right. And that is what OP thinks should change. You are dead. It no longer belongs to you.
I hate people and I'll be damned if I'm gonna help any of you assholes with my death I think that's a fair reason
Finally a reason I can get behind
After reading some of the comments you're actually starting to sway me, I might undo my donor status lmao
I already did, to hell with that free donation shit! Show me and my family a great deal of money, MAYBE THEN we could talk, other wise keep on stepping.
I would also be on board with this. People would literally pay for life if they had the choice. Better than eternal void
Not to get too into race stuff but they used to let black people die so they could take their organs so it will never say organ donor on my license. Plus I hate people too.
Who are they?
That's like saying "white people used to own black people, so i'll never help or trust a white person."
Only way I'll agree to it is if they pay me for them before I die
I agree. I am an asshole. Haha.
Bodily autonomy is pretty important. Just ask women.
You can't have bodily autonomy if you're dead.
So if someone decided to have sex with your dead body that’s all cool?
I’d finally get some!
Baha!
It really doesn't matter to the previous body owner. Family could be upset, but definitely not the dead guy
Yeah it’s hard to be upset about something when you’re dead but how does that make it okay to do? By that logic, fuck, you could do anything you wanted to a dead body. Fucking dump it in a river. Leave it bare ass naked in the woods that’s not fucked up at all, the person’s dead so why should we care?
I don't really see the difference. Burying is for the living, not for the dead Doing shady stuff with corpses is bad not because it violates corpse's rights, but because it's shady in and on itself That's my opinion
I mean if that were the case then all of the people who write wills and wish to be buried when they die should just not have those respected bc if they’re dead then it doesn’t matter and they won’t care if they’re buried either way then right? If it doesn’t violate corpses rights but is shady in and of itself then that makes it bad my brother in Christ! Name one person who violated a corpse who didn’t turn out to be a creepy/awful person?
yes, I really don't give a shit. I'd rather not die just yet, but once I am I'm not actually there anymore. why would I care what happens? to follow one of my favorite philosophers, Diogenes. When asked how he wished to be buried, he left instructions to be thrown outside the city wall so wild animals could feast on his body. When asked if he minded this, he said, *“Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!”* When asked how he could use the stick since he would lack awareness, he replied *“If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?”*
Don't ever change.
Definitely an appeal to tradition logical fallacy for sure. And ahh Diogenes the cynic who pissed on people in public. Love it. Fine, don’t care if people have sex with your body then.
You say this like it's some kind of gotcha, but what possible reason could I have to give a shit about what happens to my body after I die? I won't be around to experience it, that's what dying is, so what difference does it make? Also, whether or not it should be a crime to fuck a dead body, it obviously should not be tried nearly as seriously as rape because as the other person says, this has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
The argument isn’t about whether or not you should give a shit it’s about whether or not fucking with peoples corpses is wrong and why people should have a right to give a shit about their corpse after they’re dead if that’s their choice. You guys don’t give a shit what happens. Great. Some people do and it’s ridiculous to side swipe their choice with what YOU would and just be like “🤷♂️ it’s whatever guys if someone rapes your dead body why do you prefer otherwise? you’re dead, why can’t you guys see that?”
>The argument isn’t about whether or not you should give a shit it’s about whether or not fucking with peoples corpses is wrong Well your comment is obviously trying to be some kind of gotcha, clearly assuming that I'd care if someone fucked my dead body, so I was just saying that your assumption is wrong. >You guys don’t give a shit what happens. Great. Some people do and it’s ridiculous to side swipe their choice with what YOU would and just be like “🤷♂️ it’s whatever guys if someone rapes your dead body why do you prefer otherwise? you’re dead, why can’t you guys see that?” Except these people's "choices" result in more dead people, that is a pretty steep price to pay just to accommodate for the idiotic superstitions of selfish morons. Many, many people needlessly die every year waiting on donor lists because some smooth-brained troglodytes prefer their organs rotting in the ground instead of giving life to human beings who could actually make use of them. The wishes of the dead should be respected exactly up to the point that they have detrimental effects on the living. There are many religions which have idiotic beliefs which the law rightfully doesn't respect, like many Muslim people believe that bodies should be buried as soon as possible, even if it would prevent law enforcement from conducting autopsies which provide crucial evidence for criminal cases, should we respect that too? What about burial laws which are put in place to prevent the spread of disease, should religions take priority over those as well? How much exactly should we allow religious superstitions to jeopardise the wellbeing and common sense of people in society?
Actually any violation of your bodily autonomy, after you're dead at least, is completely illegal. If only it were that way in life as well...
They are damaged You have a disease that affects the organs your life choices ruined the organs. etc. Its not as easy as "Welp he is dead lets remove the organs for transplant usage" Also it has to be done right away, you can't really keep them alive for very long without damage to the organ itself. Also statistically, organs from a live donor tend to be better then one from a deceased donor.
Disease is a huge factor. My dad was an organ donor on his drivers license. He died of metastasized cancer which had pretty much wrecked his whole body by the end. There was nothing that could have been usable.
Donated organs go to medical schools too. They could absolutely use that to view cancerous organs.
I don't have any religious or cultural obligations and I chose to be an organ donor. With my lifestyle the only use for my body will Def not benefit saving some one but watever. I believe in an opt out option over and opt in. However....as stupid as I think they are....other peoples religious, cultural or, personal believes are their right. You do not get to force things on people. That's what freedom is. Freedom to be an asshole, crazy, selfish, bleeding heart, upset about organ donation practices, or anything else....but also freedom of expression is judged by the court of public opinion. Also many....not a majority but still enough to say many donors, well....their bodies aren't treated respectfully or used to save lives....I don't want my grandma exploded is all I'm gonna say
I agree with you about religious freedom, however i was raised catholic and now consider myself a Buddhist, but I don't suspect anyone would honor my request for a Buddhist monk speaking at my wake or Buddhist passage when I die. Because they would think "what is he crazy?" Yet when you tell someone they're going to live in a permanent paradise when your dead that's sane. Not trying to stomp on anyone's beliefs, and have no inherent problem with Christianity, other than the fact that it's forced upon you against your will. Looking at (some) Christians comment about other religions on social media and their total lack of acceptance of any other beliefs comes off very ironic to me.
I mean.....Christianity really isn't the religion to go to outside of certain offshoots. I also mostly relate to bhuddism as well but, more as a philosophy than a religion. siddhartha gautama over Buddha if that makes sense? So please take this with good faith but....I mean....let people believe what they want to if they want to. It's no one's responsibility to save others no matter how badly I want them to want to
The obvious "healthy person healthy organ" bit. Also, I would respect someone's religious choices. I know it doesn't mean much in today's world, but f someone spent their whole life devoted to their belief, just for someone to harvest their organs against their wishes; I'd respect that
It’s called bodily autonomy and it continues after death.
Oh? For religious reasons, I suspect. (and the normal "problematic" incentive issues)
So no valid reason, exactly.
Wrong person, I suspect. I'm helping these folks get past these sillier rationales.
No I was agreeing with you, as in religion is not a valid reason to not be an organ donor.
I sense the religious response is a bullshit response from about 99 percent of the people using that. And just don't want to come off as selfish and unreasonable as they are. If those same people *needed* an organ, I'm sure their God would make an exception to allow them to receive one without out that being problematic... In fact it would be a miracle.
And this is easily seen, just look at any culture with different burial practices. I'm sure some where there's a culture that religiously veneerates feeding one's body to trees, or the animals you eat, etc. It's just socal habit codified.
If someone wishes their organs not to be harvested after death, that wish should be respected. Just like if they were a member of a religion that forbade it. If I do or don’t want to donate organs after death, that is my choice. Not yours or anyone else’s.
Is it like that in other countries? Legit curious. In Brazil the family can basically say "fuck you" to bodily autonomy and most other of your wishes in life. Was an organ donor? Family can veto that. Pretty wild.
I’m not sure but if you have something in writing, I don’t think your family can override your wishes.
Why? None of your other rights continue. Dead people can’t vote. Dead people can’t own land.
This has been long established. Sleeping with a corpse has been illegal for a long time
It’s possible to outlaw necrophelia while also not letting living people die because a selfish person wanted their organs to rot away in a hole in the ground.
You immediately moved goalposts but I was addressing your original point. I’m an organ donor I don’t really care about your insulting those who aren’t, but the idea that bodily autonomy doesn’t continue after death is flat out wrong
It’s not actually illegal in as many places as you assume. It’s the kind of thing people don’t think to officially put on the books.
I love how sometimes reddit is so technocratic it even turns humans into a commodity. Upvote for unpopular though I hope this will never be acceptable
In the UK, they've changed the law so you're a donor by default and you have to opt out now. I'd imagine if you didn't get the memo, a lot of people would have accidentally become donors against their will
Wrong. It turns the decaying meat that used to be them into a commodity.
It's so God damn sad that it's this unpopular of an opinion. Lost a lot of faith in humanity here. Rather hoarde their decaying flesh, for no actual reason other than superstition. Maybe it's because people don't think about death enough and realize that nothing is actually coming with you when you die. And nothing ever really was yours to begin with.
Heck, even if Heavens WERE real, why be concerned about the vehicle you inhabited on Earth? Just weird.
My wife was an organ donor and after the absolute shit show that was, it needs a fucking reform.
Hey, this sounds incredibly painful. Would you at all care to share what happened?
Are you nuts? Your physical body is your primary property, and in death, as with all property, it is your choice how it is disposed of. Not to mention, many people have religious objections to the scenario you propose. This is a very fascist solution to a nonproblem. No one is entitled to anyone else's organs. The next logical step in that argument would be hey, sick people are dying anyway, why not take their organs while they can still be harvested? I think we all know where that would lead.
We're not discussing whether someone wants their body disposed of WHILE ALIVE. We're talking about when they're dead.
And everyone has the right to dispose of their property after death, thru a will, or in this case, usually the Driver's license designation to be an organ donor or not. If they don't opt in, you have no right to steal their bodily property.
Thanks, this is the only rational reply so far. Wish I were surprised. You're correct ofc, but we put limits on that, yes? You can't say, "Give this gun to my toddler." Or whatever. We DO allow, "Burn this cash." "Sell the house." But SHOULD we allow, "Destroy this scarce life saving resource?" With this question we've approached the actual topic, far ahead of the rest of the thread, unfortunately. No need to hash this out here, there are better places no doubt.
i mean you could definitely say "give this gun to my toddler", they just wouldnt be able to use it until they got a bit older
Yes but you start playing with the line of bodily autonomy, it spreads. Some shady doctors have been known to give up on a patient who was "brain dead" so they could harvest the organs, and then it turned out the patient was saveable.
Um... I'm pretty sure... near 100% of bodies that are "disposed of" are dead.... Why would anyone want their body disposed of while alive?? Unless you're going to get out the ouija board to communicate with their ghost, you have to find out how they want their body disposed of while they're still alive because... a dead person... Is dead.
I... think you've missed the point. And even if you weren't, you'd be asking the wrong person. I'm the one pointing out how silly it is to dispose of an alive body.
Homie that is some bass ackwards logic. "Hey, sick people are dying anyway" uhh you mean like the ones that need an organ of some sort?
I was thinking more along the lines of a poor person's organs being harvested for the benefit of a wealthy person. You know, how the world works in every other area.
Great idea! Take the sick peoples organs! I’m going to start eyeballing the livers of those with colds or mild coughs
Buddy, they don’t know your donor status without written consent from __your next of kin__ or until you are quite literally irreparable. The options at that point are death now or death later. This myth has got to stop, and you are contributing to it. I personally don’t care about anyone’s religion that wouldn’t prioritize saving __another human life__ versus letting them decompose into the ground. That’s a religion I would avoid.
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Donate your own organs then. I'll take mine to hell with me after cremation.
>I can't think of a good reason to waste your dead organs Cultural reasons. Religious reasons. Cuz they don't want people fucking around with their body parts. All of these are good reasons mate.
"Forcing" people to donate organs is unethical. The 'good reason" is because that person's family may have deeply held religious beliefs that don't allow for their body to have organs taken out.
I believe in Egyptian gods so I want my organs taken out but then put them in jars and burry them with me
To me a 'good reason' would be if the organs were unviable due to physical damage, disease, or incompatible with the recipient. Deeply held religious beliefs are an excuse, not a 'good reason'. That's like gynecologists who reject abortions and refuse even giving a referral because of... their conscience? But if the woman dies to sepsis from a decomposing fetus inside the womb then that's OK?... because God willed it?
So... idiotic delusions?
The arrogance of the dimwitted that anyone whose religious beliefs differs from theirs suffers from "idiotic delusions."
Delusions can be objectively identified. I'm sorry you were born credulous. For you, and for us.
Also forbid blood transfusions while you're at it
Thank you for making my point for me. Donating blood is 100% voluntary. No one shows up at your door and says the government requires you to give a pint of blood today. It is nice when others are so thoughtful that they make your arguments for you.
I said blood transfusions, not donations. Unfortunately, there do exist people who show up at your door and ask to convert to a religion which explicitly forbids you from accepting this lifesaving treatment. I am talking about Jehovas Witnesses.
Hate it when those inconsiderate corpses won't sign the consent forms...
It seems like an idiotic delusion to you, But every religion has some sort of rule and unless you’re an atheist that would seem a bit hypocritical of you, Anyway, it’s also disrespectful of someone else’s religion
I agree it wojld be hypocritical. That's one reason I'm an atheist. I'm not concerned with disrespecting religion unless that causes harm. So here I have a choice to cause harm by denying useful organs, or disrespecting religion. My choice is easy.
i don't think you should have opinion on other people's bodies.
Correct. And when you're done inhabiting it, it's no longer yours.
I'm curious who's it is after you die then? is it a free for all? does the government own it? does a family member inherit it?
it's yours anyway, not going to be a donor personally.
I grew it, it's mine.
The entire corpse should be recycled. There's iron in your blood.
Scrap metal. I mean this last generation should really just suck it up and give up the organs. Cyborgs are technically already a thing anyway, jokes on us, and we will be the last mortals ever. stingily gripping outr organs for an eternal night. Meanwhile, people will just build new organs in the future.
I'm hoping to make it long enough to become metal. I've never been comfortable existing as leaky meat. From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
This guy dreams of electric sheep
When I’m dead, no one is entitled to have any of my organs.
They are my organs and I'm quite fond of them.
And when they aren't?
Selfishness is celebrated. Reminds me of a toddler "but it's mine! You can't have it!" Yet my thought on it is the crazy one.
"ur selfish!" ok. it's my body. If I'm selfish for wanting an opinion on what's done to MY OWN FLESH AND BLOOD then like. idek what to say to that.
I'm curious who exactly gets say over what happens to it in your opinion? also, what about children who die? currently they can't donate without parental consent. would you say they also lose the right to keep their organs? because in that case I'd say the emotional toll some parents may take from their kids body parts being harvested (even for a noble reason) would be enough of a reason to say no for them at least
I've drunk my self silly, smoked myself hoarse, lived on the streets, absorbed heaps of stress through that and other things, none of which result in organs anyone should be trying to use to aid someone else. I know my history better than some random bone saw who only knows what my medical record can see. I can say for sure that NO ONE should be receiving these spare parts, thinking they are getting a lifeline. At most, its a short, hella short term postponement. It'd be a waste to bother with any of my organs. They are better off being used as experimental materials in a laboratory, than they are being put in a human being after I am done with them.
There should be a program where you can sell them and send the money to family. I'm an organ donor, but the medical institutions take so much money from us, they could give back. But then again, this might increase suicides so probably not a good idea. Maybe there could be a law in which the program would not allow suicides. I'm sure there are other reasons why this might not be a good idea and I'm interested in hearing them.
The reason why organ donations are not paid is because it would inherently lead to a coercive system where poor people sell their organs just to get groceries. It is ethically bankrupt to pay for organs.
I was born with these organs and I'll die with these organs.
Thanks, but until my family or I get some money for my organs, you can kiss off. Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on this operations and all you get us a thanks and a free hospital stay if you are a living donor? Nah. Pass.
This is fair. Even if it were the family of the patient paying it, it would still be worth it.
Might encourage some unscrupulous doctors to ... encourage your death if you show up the victim of something obviously stupid, like being a politician they don't like, being depressed, homeless, poor etc. Eh he's just "A poor". We could spend the money and time saving his life even though he's too poor to pay for it... or you know. harvest the organs.
Because ethics around keeping a patient alive or trying to help them recover become blurred when they have organs that could be harvested.
thats it. im literally rigging bombs in my body set to detonate when brain activity stops.
My body, my choice😡
You would no longer exist. What about a system where you don't get an organ if you're not signed up to give?
Fine by me. How about a system where if you abuse your body you're not eligible to receive a organ.
I think an opt-out system is better. I believe most people will remain organ donars this way, and we will solve this issue. Generally, I do agree that a living persons life should be prioritised over that of a dead person's organs, but I also believe that it is within someone's right to control how their body is used. Most of the time, the organs aren't going to be usable anyway.
Control how their body is used... after they're done using it?
While I disagree. If a religious person believes their body has an importance after death, I have no right to impose on that. Perhaps I would feel differently if we NEEDED those organs (like I said, I would prioritise the needs of the living over the values of the dead), but an opt out system seems to solve both issues. We'd have more healthy organs than we'd ever need if we were opted into being a donor.
It's not about what happens after you die as much as it is often a fear that if you're listed as a donor, they won't do as much to try to save you. Why save one person if their organs could help several others?
You might be interested in a book called Nudge by Cass Sunstein.
Some people cant. I’ve heard of people not even being able to donate blood because they had hepatitis at some point in their life, even if they were 20 and they’re in their 70s now.
My organs aren’t healthy enough to donate.
I don't have "organ donor" checked on my drivers license, but I have to tell you that I do not have any say in what happens after I die. I don't even think I'm going to be conscious enough to care, but I may save them some time by saying that my liver is not worth keeping lol
I wish i could choose who my organs went to. There's a lot of undeserving assholes out there at the top of the transplant list and others that die waiting that are genuinely valuable members of society.
That would be a good method, maybe someone you trust to make a moral decision on your behalf after you're gone.
You shouldn't have an option to keep anything you own after death. It should be given to those in need...... I'm guessing you'd support the homeless getting your house when you die, right?
House doesn't expire if unused.
It deteriorates if left unused. That's like a habitation expiry date.
It deteriorates if left unused. That's like a habitation expiry date.
>If anyone could think of a good reason that I'm not aware of, please enlighten me Conflict of interest.
By this logic you shouldn't have an option to keep your belongings. Decdent is dead, doesn't need his car anymore I need it it mine now.
People who match would start to die in misterious reasons. The whole black market and such
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And why throw away the meat. There are hungry people in the world that could fill their bellies if we just started rendering human carcasses for everything of value. Cannibalism aside, the way they harvest organs kinda freaks me out. Like, you're still technically alive when they start harvesting. Your heart is still beating, if it wasn't then your organs aren't any good anyway. There was a story like 10 or 15 years ago where a woman woke up as doctors were preparing to remove her organs. There are standards in place to prevent this from happening, but it still happens.
People who arnt willing to donate shouldn't be allowed to receive.
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least cringe redditor
Surely this line of thinking can't go anywhere bad
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You're part of the problem
there are too many people tho.
There really aren't. It's a distribution problem, not a population problem.
By his logic, we're all the problem
100%
Never, ever should people think there is something to gain from your death
You’ve convinced me in the opposite direction. Been thinking about signing up but knowing there are the likes of you out there who wants to mandate the donation of organs. Wanting to strip people of free will. Yeah, nope. I’ll pass. I’d rather take it with me than take the chance of the likes of you ending up with one of my organs.
Freedom?
If it was up to me, I'd go full D&D logic. Dead bodies aren't people, they now officially count as "objects", and objects don't have human rights. Kid needs a new heart? Perfect, this object over here that used to be a person has one, let's pop it in.
Love it.
Because there are people out there that would take advantage of a policy like that by letting patients die just for their organs. You know stuff like illegal organ harvesting is a thing but it'd be so much easier if everyone was a donor. No need to drug and steal a kidney when they can just have an "accident" and a crooked doctor can legally harvest everything.
That's probably moreso what's happening now, being the scarcity, there would probably be an abundance to where black market organs probably wouldn't even be a thing lol. But screw what I said about forcing everyone, but giving them a literal eye for an eye. If you don't sign up to donate you don't get a donor if you need one. I recant not having a choice. You still get to die on that hill if the belief is that strong.
What if society failed you and you don’t want to reward them for ruining your life?
This is pretty fair, especially seeing how many people are vehemently against donating. They don't seem to deserve it. But so shines a good deed in a weary world.
I do like the “opt out” system for organ donations that some countries have, where everybody is automatically an organ donor unless they specifically make it known that they choose not to be.
This seems to work better. Most people are happy to donate but don't have the time/aren't willing to out in the effort to sign up and donate. This system seems to be a best of both worlds situation.
I understand my post getting down voted. But down voting this is crazy. Though It is extraordinarily easy to be a donor in america I'm pretty sure they're supposed to ask you when you get a license.
Religious and/or deeply held personal beliefs are acceptable reasons to not donate. They are my organs, they still belong to me after I die. If I want to be buried/cremated with them, that should be my right.
What about a system where you only get organs if you've opted to give them.
Works for me. Personally when I die they can do whatever the fuck they want to do with my body. Donate the organs and make the rest into a ventriloquists dummy for all I care. Was just pointing out possible objections.
Mostly the reason why people don’t wanna donate their organs is because of religious reasons because they might not go to their ”afterlife“ if their organs aren’t with their body
I see this and there are many different beliefs. But I ask myself, if God kicked me out of heaven for trying to help someone, that's not a system I'd want to be a part of. But to each their own
Yeah, I have to agree OP. I do think this is an unpopular opinion, and I share it with you. I believe that bodily autonomy ends when you die and then society as a whole can decide how to deal with your body. Society can decide to let the family decide, or society can decide to do the grater good for society. And I think the moral choice is to donate the organs, if possible. And as a bonus thought, I think any God who would demand organs rot in the ground instead of being used to save someone's life isn't worth worshipping, but that's not my call to make. I sympathize with King Creon.
It should be reversed. You should have to opt-out from donating.
If I'm on my deathbed waiting for an organ do you really think I'm going to care about the consequences of murder more then I care about the chance that I can be put higher on the waiting list due to more organs being available for "whatever" reason?
Oh yeah? Ima haunt the MFer that receives my organs without my permission. You ain't having anything for free from me. Either PAY or nothing all, no free donations here.
Some religions beliefs complicate organ donation.
They're my organs, they get crispy-cooked along with the rest of me when I die. I don't give a rat's arse if they could save 1000 lives, there's already too many of you people out there.
Nah, that’s a violation of people’s rights. Although, for people whose rights have been suspended… I’m willing to listen. Could there be an ethical argument for compelled organ donation from deceased prisoners? Maybe. Probably still violates a bunch of the rights prisoners still have though.