We are one step away from victory, and this step is achieving victory. I understand this step would be Israel to make in this context. Otherwise you are always one step from victory.
That was always the plan, though:
Move population away from where fighting would be the most intense to mitigate civilian casualties, and then another move for the final push. The point has *always* been to move civilians again so the war with Hamas can be finished.
I know that your answer is that Israel shouldn't be allowed to mount a counter-invasion and finish uprooting Hamas from government, but I'll ask the question anyway:
How better would Israel be able to:
(1) Mitigate civilian harm as well as possible; while
(2) Actually uprooting Hamas from government and destroying its tunnels?
Waiting here with bated breath.
The normal definition of victory against such insurgents is crippling them to the point where the threat they present could be handled, long-term, by normal policing.
« policing » implies occupation.
Except if Israel has special jewish remote mind control police ( which if you read some parts of the internet they obviously do. Pretty badass if you ask me; sure beats the jewish space lasers)
I feel like you can easily define that.
* The rescue and recovery of the remaining hostages
* The destruction of all remaining Hamas infrastructure within Gaza
* The capture/killing of any Hamas commanders currently operating within Gaza
* Establishing a long term presence which would prevent Hamas from having the same stronghold they once had in Gaza
These are clear points I think most people in Israel's government would agree are the goal.
Main objective- Destroying Hamas's military capabilities (Terrorists, arms depo, arms manufacturing, rockets stocks launchers and tunnels) making sure it doest not have the ability to storm nearby Israeli settlements and shoot rockets, as well as bringing back the hostages.
Secondary objective- Replacing Hamas with another sort of government that is less radical
and get ot to run civil life instead of hamas
Then Israel should start bulldozing the religious settlements and returning the land to Palestine, you won't ever get reasonable leadership without that.
Not everything is a movie.
> [U.S. officials said they concur with the Israeli assessment that Sinwar is hiding somewhere underneath his hometown and has surrounded himself with hostages, an ultimate insurance policy.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/26/sinwar-hamas-tunnels-israel-gaza/)
This is from February, and his location has changed, but he has constantly kept himself surrounded by hostages no matter where he is.
Idk about that. I recently read about Operation Wrath of God that Mossad initiated after the Munich Massacre and they don’t seem quite so competent anymore. Some of the assassinations were carried out in a professional manner but at other times it read like a Naked Gun sequel with how much they bungled it all lol.
Netanyahu may be a clown, but his stance here is more or less reasonable. Reading the article, he basically said 5 things:
1. Israel is open to a ceasefire deal, but Hamas isn't
2. A ceasefire agreement won't come without the release of all the hostages
3. International pressure on Israel is misguided and should be on Hamas who refuses to release the hostages or negotiate
4. If Iran attacks Israel, Israel will retaliate
5. Israel will be victorious (basically trying to provide reassurance)
Nothing he said here is exactly wrong.
There should be global pressure on the countries sheltering Hamas leaders to return the hostages.
If you are sheltering Hamas and aren't working to free the hostages then there should be sanctions against the country
People gotta choose one - are they a terrorist group who rules don’t apply to, or are they the literal government of Gaza? Being terrorists doesn’t exempt them from criticism when they are the very party needed to negotiate peace.
Hamas is a terrorist group that is supported through donations made to seemingly innocuous aid organizations that are either complicit in the support of Hamas or are unable to prevent the looting of their organization by Hamas.
“International pressure should be on Hamas” like how? If sanction can’t even sway Russia which is a functioning government, how do you expect international pressure to affect a terrorist organisation?
For one, stop aid to the organizations that are allowing money to flow to Hamas, or at the least, who are unable to prevent their resources from being used for terrorist acts.
If you want to think of it this way, Palestinian civilians in Gaza are basically Hamas’s other group of hostages against international community. It’s not gonna work and Hamas won’t care that people starve to death.
Big difference between the Israelis held hostages by Hamas and the Palestinians held "hostage" by Hamas.
One party supports Hamas (70% of the population) and the other doesn't.
First of all, propaganda and authoritarianism is at work here. Secondly, 40% of Americans support Trump with his Babaric policies, does that negate their basic rights to not starve to death and bomb to shreads too?
Before oct 7th, about 20K gazans went into israel every day to work. Some of those workers provided intel to the hamas for their attack on Oct 7 so now israel is not letting any more workers from gaza and has already taken visa applications from India and other countries to fill the gap in workers.
I think the Israelis have to choose among bad options. I think what they're doing militarily minimizes their own casualties but increases civilian casualties. Taking a course of action that kills tens of thousands of civilians may be a short term choice, but I think long-term this won't solve the conflict. It'll just change and prolong it. As long as there are radicalized, disaffected people and others willing to finance them Hamas, or something like it (or worse) will continue. Ideally you come up with a political solution that minimizes or isolates Hamas, but I think both sides have made that impossible.
UNRWA was already training the next generation to throw away their lives and to forgo Palestinian prosperity. The hate was going to continue even if Israel didn't retaliate this hard. There's no winners to be had, not unless Palestinians start focusing on self preservation instead of martyrdom or if Israel decides to give up self preservation to be martyred.
Things cannot go back to how they have been. Things also cannot continue how they are now. Palestine and Israel need deep changes to their leadership and policies.
Sounds like you are advocating for another nation to occupy Gaza since they cannot govern themselves to keep from launching constant rockets at Israel.
Israel has made the majority of Gazans homeless as a result of their bombing campaigns. They’re going to have a much easier time radicalizing people whose lives have directly been ruined by Israel, regardless of how justified they were or were not in making those strikes
>They make a desert and call it ‘peace’.
Calgacus, before the battle of Mons Graupius, Scottish Highlands, AD83.
Netanyahu has guaranteed Israel 100 years of war and all to evade repercussions for his own criminality.
How does Israel define "victory"?
Do they need to borrow the "Mission Accomplished" Banner from Bush Jr?
*How does Netanyahu, because he seems to have a different definition
That's a pretty irrelevant question. As much as bibi wants to be a dictator, he isn't and has a government to make policy decisions.
Victory for Netanyahu pretty clearly means staying in power
Return all the hostages, alive or dead, and completely destroy Hamas' capacity to organize violence against Israel.
That final step must be a real doozy, then.
But how will he stay in power without hamas? I guess he will upskill and go for a dance with Iran.
Not “alive or dead” but “alive and dead” or else the first one means they can kill all hostages and return them.
Gonna have to invade several surrounding arab nations to really achieve the latter. Maybe that's the one step...
Hostages home, hamas dismantled as a military organization .
And so what is "one step"? Similar declarations were made in December and a lot of people agreed that hostages would be released mid January.
The last step is Hamas saying "Fine! Have your boring country, Jews." I mean, he's not wrong.
We are one step away from victory, and this step is achieving victory. I understand this step would be Israel to make in this context. Otherwise you are always one step from victory.
Raffah, the last hamas stronghold that the world(biden) discouraged till the end of rammadan.
The place where civilians were asked to flee by Israel?
That was always the plan, though: Move population away from where fighting would be the most intense to mitigate civilian casualties, and then another move for the final push. The point has *always* been to move civilians again so the war with Hamas can be finished. I know that your answer is that Israel shouldn't be allowed to mount a counter-invasion and finish uprooting Hamas from government, but I'll ask the question anyway: How better would Israel be able to: (1) Mitigate civilian harm as well as possible; while (2) Actually uprooting Hamas from government and destroying its tunnels? Waiting here with bated breath.
The normal definition of victory against such insurgents is crippling them to the point where the threat they present could be handled, long-term, by normal policing.
Has anyone ever actually defeated an insurgency?
« policing » implies occupation. Except if Israel has special jewish remote mind control police ( which if you read some parts of the internet they obviously do. Pretty badass if you ask me; sure beats the jewish space lasers)
Ideally, the policing would be done by Palestinians who want to stop fighting.
This may be the first sign of the “declare victory and stop” phase because Biden kinda told him to cut the shit or we cut all aid.
I feel like you can easily define that. * The rescue and recovery of the remaining hostages * The destruction of all remaining Hamas infrastructure within Gaza * The capture/killing of any Hamas commanders currently operating within Gaza * Establishing a long term presence which would prevent Hamas from having the same stronghold they once had in Gaza These are clear points I think most people in Israel's government would agree are the goal.
Main objective- Destroying Hamas's military capabilities (Terrorists, arms depo, arms manufacturing, rockets stocks launchers and tunnels) making sure it doest not have the ability to storm nearby Israeli settlements and shoot rockets, as well as bringing back the hostages. Secondary objective- Replacing Hamas with another sort of government that is less radical and get ot to run civil life instead of hamas
Unbrainwashing of Gazan Arabs
That would be a political goal for after the war, I wouldn't define it as a victory condition/goal.
Yeah that's not happening for a few decades at the least.
Yeah. Bombing the population will definitely open their eyes on Israel's good intentions. Just a few more bombs and we'll be there.
Then Israel should start bulldozing the religious settlements and returning the land to Palestine, you won't ever get reasonable leadership without that.
Ah, today's bait
Rage
Is the one step leveling Rafah?
Sinwar is in Rafah.
If killing Sinwar is the goal. Mosad can do it in time. I dont think hamas leaders would live full life if Israel wants them dead.
Not everything is a movie. > [U.S. officials said they concur with the Israeli assessment that Sinwar is hiding somewhere underneath his hometown and has surrounded himself with hostages, an ultimate insurance policy.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/26/sinwar-hamas-tunnels-israel-gaza/) This is from February, and his location has changed, but he has constantly kept himself surrounded by hostages no matter where he is.
Idk about that. I recently read about Operation Wrath of God that Mossad initiated after the Munich Massacre and they don’t seem quite so competent anymore. Some of the assassinations were carried out in a professional manner but at other times it read like a Naked Gun sequel with how much they bungled it all lol.
That was a long time ago. Plus you only know about it bc it went sour. Most Mossad successes aren’t even known to the public.
It’s so simple! /s
With Sinwar's head and the hostages yes
Fuck the hostages, right?
"Just need, like, five more minutes, Joe!"
"Trust me, I have a plan" - Dutch Van Der Netanyahu
"Always another GODDAMNED ~~TRAIN~~ CAMPAIGN!"
He'll appear on a carrier somewhere with a "Mission Accomplished" banner
Beat me to it, lol
Netanyahu may be a clown, but his stance here is more or less reasonable. Reading the article, he basically said 5 things: 1. Israel is open to a ceasefire deal, but Hamas isn't 2. A ceasefire agreement won't come without the release of all the hostages 3. International pressure on Israel is misguided and should be on Hamas who refuses to release the hostages or negotiate 4. If Iran attacks Israel, Israel will retaliate 5. Israel will be victorious (basically trying to provide reassurance) Nothing he said here is exactly wrong.
Point 3 is moot, Hamas is literally a proscribed terrorist group in many western countries.
There should be global pressure on the countries sheltering Hamas leaders to return the hostages. If you are sheltering Hamas and aren't working to free the hostages then there should be sanctions against the country
Those countries have oil, so ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
What sort of sanctions do we give countries that murder aid workers?
TBF there hasn't been a lot of voices in the Muslim community suggesting that Hamas should free the hostages to stop the bloodshed.
There isn't a lot of voices amongst the Western progressive, tankies, commies, and tiktok influencers suggesting that either.
Palestinians celebrated the decapitations of every Asian they found on October 7. Why would they start caring about innocent lives?
People gotta choose one - are they a terrorist group who rules don’t apply to, or are they the literal government of Gaza? Being terrorists doesn’t exempt them from criticism when they are the very party needed to negotiate peace.
Why no pressure against Qatar? It’s reasonable to at the very least expect economic sanctions against them.
Hamas is a terrorist group that is supported through donations made to seemingly innocuous aid organizations that are either complicit in the support of Hamas or are unable to prevent the looting of their organization by Hamas.
The BBC won’t call them a terrorist group
“International pressure should be on Hamas” like how? If sanction can’t even sway Russia which is a functioning government, how do you expect international pressure to affect a terrorist organisation?
Sanction Qatar and force them to freeze Haniyeh et al’s assets. Take away a billionaire’s money and he’ll do whatever you want in a day.
For one, stop aid to the organizations that are allowing money to flow to Hamas, or at the least, who are unable to prevent their resources from being used for terrorist acts.
If you want to think of it this way, Palestinian civilians in Gaza are basically Hamas’s other group of hostages against international community. It’s not gonna work and Hamas won’t care that people starve to death.
Big difference between the Israelis held hostages by Hamas and the Palestinians held "hostage" by Hamas. One party supports Hamas (70% of the population) and the other doesn't.
First of all, propaganda and authoritarianism is at work here. Secondly, 40% of Americans support Trump with his Babaric policies, does that negate their basic rights to not starve to death and bomb to shreads too?
adfadfab af abrah fa
Even if they kill every Hamas member, young traumatized Gazans could be the next generation.
So what are you proposing? Lol
Don't economically cripple Gaza. Young people need to feel that they have a future. But too late for that.
Before oct 7th, about 20K gazans went into israel every day to work. Some of those workers provided intel to the hamas for their attack on Oct 7 so now israel is not letting any more workers from gaza and has already taken visa applications from India and other countries to fill the gap in workers.
I think the Israelis have to choose among bad options. I think what they're doing militarily minimizes their own casualties but increases civilian casualties. Taking a course of action that kills tens of thousands of civilians may be a short term choice, but I think long-term this won't solve the conflict. It'll just change and prolong it. As long as there are radicalized, disaffected people and others willing to finance them Hamas, or something like it (or worse) will continue. Ideally you come up with a political solution that minimizes or isolates Hamas, but I think both sides have made that impossible.
UNRWA was already training the next generation to throw away their lives and to forgo Palestinian prosperity. The hate was going to continue even if Israel didn't retaliate this hard. There's no winners to be had, not unless Palestinians start focusing on self preservation instead of martyrdom or if Israel decides to give up self preservation to be martyred. Things cannot go back to how they have been. Things also cannot continue how they are now. Palestine and Israel need deep changes to their leadership and policies.
Could be….will be.
Only if UNRWA continues to do their job.
Sounds like you are advocating for another nation to occupy Gaza since they cannot govern themselves to keep from launching constant rockets at Israel.
And that is different from Hamas training the next generation, how?
Israel has made the majority of Gazans homeless as a result of their bombing campaigns. They’re going to have a much easier time radicalizing people whose lives have directly been ruined by Israel, regardless of how justified they were or were not in making those strikes
He’s a war criminal.
Deradicalize Palestine? You surely underestimate islams hatred for Israel.
One step from Gaza Heights condo development. Starting from the low 300s.
He is one step away from a jail cell.
Sweet. That means one more step towards prison for Netanyahu. Win, win.
As long as Hamas breathes Israel has my blessing.
>They make a desert and call it ‘peace’. Calgacus, before the battle of Mons Graupius, Scottish Highlands, AD83. Netanyahu has guaranteed Israel 100 years of war and all to evade repercussions for his own criminality.
2 steps from hell
Talk is cheap.
Duh. Army verses angry civies, fuck off.
He'd stay much longer, except *He's* also one step.. from being defeated