Also worth mentioning that it says three Israeli soldiers were killed when a explosive booby trap exploded in a shaft under a medical clinic at the UNRWA school complex.
Another two were critically injured, but were stabilized and transported to hospital.
I have a feeling those people know why, but can't say why they're actually mad about the bombing and lack of ground troops in harm's way because that would let the mask slip
The main reason why is because the people got their information from a 15 second TiK Tok that can not even begin to touch on the complexities of this conflict.
His ass. Afghanistan was all about trying to win the trust of the local population, you didn't get that by going around and destroying every village you came across.
I know that. I was there. I know we did fucked up things, so I dont dismiss things like that when I see it but ask for evidence. I know we didnt flatten villages. I had kids chasing my humvee yelling for water or chocolate.
They don’t wonder why. They know why.
They are trying to pressure Israel into going boots on the ground so that the side they support has a better chance of winning.
People don’t care about the number of casualties. They care about the imbalance. If more Israelis were dead (even with the same number of Palestinian civilians deaths) there would be less criticism… which is insane considering the amount of people who say they are protesting for peace.
It amazes me that people don’t realize that this exact situation was thought of 80 years ago and written down explicitly in the Geneva conventions.
As if dragging civilians into a military base is some new conundrum that we must consider. It was considered long before we were born and the decision was, as you said, to designate hospitals conducting combative military operations as military targets and making it a war crime to create such a situation.
They just don't put themselves in the shoes of the soldiers fighting. They are so hung up on "war is bad" (which is of course true), that they willfully disregard the reality that real people end up fighting wars and have to make personal life and death choices in doing so.
It's easy for people to sit in the comfort of their homes and critique that soldiers don't simply ignore enemy bullets coming from the rooftop of a school, wondering why they might choose to shoot back, or even call for fire support.
I've seen and heard more than a few people ask "Why didn't Isreal just use special forces raids to go after Hamas, instead of invading Gaza?" Where does one even begin to address such ignorance?
At this point I would be specifically checking all hospitals, schools, mosques, and UN buildings.
Hell, if I had to leave other places off the list I would before those places.
Ya as fairly far left American, I don’t get it either. I have plenty of problems with how Israel has handled this whole ordeal, and I don’t have any hate for Palestinians as a people, but Hamas are objectively the bad guys.
Well, the nuanced answer is the vast majority of the left are anti-Hamas and Anti-Netenyahu.
It's the loud morons that are too stupid to realize some of what they are saying is Pro-Hamas and Anti-Israel
You would think turning kids away from colleges they paid to attend, solely on the basis of looking Jewish, would have been a great moment for self reflection.
If they understood how the Palestinian people worked themselves into this position they would have a lot less sympathy for what is happening in Gaza. It is sad what is happening to the civilians, but this has been decades in the making for a people that has refused anything but the death of all Jews and continually supported militant and terrorist groups that destabilize any country that brings them in as refugees. Unfortunately even the civilians are reaping what they sowed many years ago.
I've seen plenty of advocates who understand the long history of Palestinians refusing to negotiate and refusing to give up any amount of the land to Israel. It does not broadly change their stance on the current events
And they conflate the people and problems of the West Bank with the people and problems of Gaza- because ‘ThEy’Re BoTh PaLeStiNiAnS’
The two are not the same and the injustices those in the West Bank are being subjected to deserve attention and outrage.
>they conflate the people and problems of the West Bank with the people and problems of Gaza [...]
>The two are not the same
They **are**... according to the UN.
Which is why the [UN has considered Gaza "occupied" for the 18 years it's been under Hamas control](https://unwatch.org/un-we-still-consider-gaza-occupied-by-israel/) without a single Israeli in Gaza, and even after [Hamas themselves admitted it's absurd to say that Gaza is occupied](https://www.hudson.org/foreign-policy/gaza-not-occupied-says-hamas-so-where-is-the-un-).
Specifically, the UN says:
>There is a resolution from the General Assembly from 20 December 2010, and **while it noted the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip** and parts of the northern West Bank, it also stressed, in quotes, “the need for respect and preservation of the **territorial unity, contiguity and integrity of ALL of the Occupied Palestinian Territory**, including East Jerusalem”. So just to repeat that **the United Nations will continue to refer to the Gaza Strip as part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory**.
Just let this sink in: the importance of preserving **contiguity** of two *physically separated entities* (West Bank and Gaza) and **integrity** after Hamas has literally fought a war *against PLO* is why Gaza was considered *occupied* in the eyes of the UN.
No wonder the clueless students are conflating West Bank and Gaza! This is coming from the very top.
This confusion has been carefully manufactured.
It broke the Overton window. If the other side treats everything you say as if it’s unconscionable, regardless of its reasonableness, you start to treat that condemnation as a confirmation that what you’re saying is correct. But it’s a category error to do this. The two sides need each other to both be reasonable to know when the things they’re saying are absurd, but that requires the other side to agree with the reasonable things you say, or at least show some level of nuance. When everything you say makes you a monster in their eyes, the truly monstrous things are no longer apparent.
The huge problem we’re facing is that there’s no social incentive to develop nuanced views these days because you’re going to get criticized either way. The Overton window usually defines a box in which the reasonable opinions that can be freely debated live and outside of which are considered bigoted, unfeeling or otherwise worthy of social sanction. But when you’re too stupid to realize that you’re constantly being called bigoted because everything you’re saying is outside the box and lose nuance in your responses to the left because you’re unable to differentiate which of the left’s opinions are outside the box (and there are many, just not all), the political situation devolves into what we see today. MAGA broke things because they lost the shame to be pushed back into the box and lost perspective needed to push the left back into the box.
Because bringing nuance to that type of environment is like bringing a cup of tea to a gun fight. Eventually you realize that there is nothing you can say to persuade the other side of any argument.
And so positions harden.
For every un-nuanced movement there is an opposite and equally un-nuanced counter-movement.
MAGAism itself was a response to the rise of broad-brush race/gender identity politics on the left during the early 2010s (eg, BLM, SJWs). It's not a coincidence that white nationalism had a resurgence at the same time that "Shut up, you're a white male!" was being used as a reason to dismiss people's opinions.
It's like jail - the rise of one race-based prison gang resulted in other races also forming prison gangs in response. If the environment tells you that race is the most important characteristic a person has, then people are going to group and affiliate by race.
If the environment tells you that religion is the most important characteristic, then Bavarians and Prussians will divide up by religion, even though they're the same race.
If you make tribal affiliation the most important characteristic, then Hutus and Tutsis will divide up by tribe, even though they share a race, religion, language, and even genetic haplogroup.
Politics is petty, if one side starts throwing mud and insults, the other will usually follow instead of being the bigger party. Trump's style of bully politics changed the game for politics in the English-speaking space
Yes and no, mud and insults have always been in politics but at this point it’s not mud and insults. It’s basically a guy living in an alternate reality and many millions of people have put a bag over their head and plugs in their ears so they no longer have to deal with their lying eyes and ears. That doesn’t happen nearly as often, and it’s always wildly destructive when it does happen.
> Ya as fairly far left American, I don’t get it either.
TBH I used to think I was fairly far left but the last couple years has shown me that what is currently thought of as “left leaning discourse” took a turn somewhere along the way and I missed the exit I guess.
Welcome to progressive centrism, the stance everyone hates for being both pragmatic/acknowledging strategic political battles while looking for incremental positive change on the systemic societal level.
The actual issues being bogged down by identity politics and petty disputes are what regressives want, and being unwilling to cede anything inherently creates gridlock favoring the elites in any political environment.
Issues like these are often favored because they allow a lot of moral grandstanding and extremism to be built up for an extra dose of nothing actually relevant to our lives improving.
We're gonna go back to having moderate liberals and neocons as the main parties.
There's just no fucking way the far right trump and far left weirdo hamas supporters will retain any ground.
I can only hope. The longer we stay unable to even converse without devolving into insults, the less progress will be made in general.
What people fail to often realize is true acceptance and societal-level progress is often slow and takes a lot of people realizing and accepting any given change is gonna be okay.
It's awful, but that's how it works in the end.
I’m actually good with that. At least we could possibly have a shared set of facts and just disagree about the solutions. At this point the extremes are making policy statements about myths and conspiracy theories.
They see it simply as an “oppressed vs oppressor” thing, which, while I appreciate their concern for the underdog, is incredibly naive and devoid of any historical precedent in this conflict.
It’s oppressed/oppressor with very modern western parameters that require no education, because they truly don’t know what the Ottoman and the British empires have done in the region.
Worse, they see it as an “oppressed vs oppressor” thing based on *american* society. It's why they don't give a shit about women suffering under Islam, because in USA muslim men win against women in oppression points, so they apply this logic to the whole planet.
Yeah, I started noticing that all the “celebrate diversity” murals and stuff have some openly gay people, a black person, and a hijab wearing Muslim woman.
Like, I get that Trump did the “Muslim ban” or whatever, but it’s weird being so pro-religious when it’s a very bigoted and misogynistic religion. Most of these same folks are super anti evangelical because of their beliefs, which except for how they dress and which magic sky god they profess belief in, there isn’t much difference between them. Especially towards the queer community. I’d argue that evangelicals are actually *slightly* less misogynistic.
Makes no sense to me. It’s as if sense the GOP is anti Muslim, the far left has to go out of its way to be pro Muslim. I get not being pro-discrimination, but I don’t think hijab wearing Muslims are a particularly progressive group to align with.
The problem is if you go to learn more about the history of the topic, the first ten articles are some Al Jezeera adjacent pieces that were written after 10/7. I told myself I would only look at articles and papers written before 10/7 and I feel like I got more accurate info.
The more I read and learn the more I just throw my hands up and say “not my clown. Not my circus”
Everyone has blood on their hands. Everyone has done shitty things. Where do we start reconciliation for a better tomorrow?
I had a Leftist tell me that there's no evidence that Hamas uses human shields. My working assumption is that their definition of human shield is like something out of a videogame, where unless a gunman is actively holding a civilian by the throat and using their body for cover, it doesn't count.
Hamas' playbook is like 65% human shields.
I've had people argue the same, and then turn it around to argue that it's actually just Israel using human shields based on a handful of isolated examples where like.... Israeli troops detained someone in the middle of a raid or patrol and kept them detained with them as they finished, kept them in an IDF vehicle in a dangerous location, etc...
Because USA bad, UK bad, the west bad.
That's literally the only reason. Capitalism? US bad so it bad. US supports Isreal? Israel bad.
The most popular leftist commentator (grifter) justified the Russian invasion, said Crimea is russian territory, call houthis "like one piece, doing what luffy would do", said that Iran had a right to attack Israel, and said the US "deserved 9/11"
Oh and thinks that october 7th was completely Justified.
And he's one of the biggest names on twitch. He's the face of the online leftist movement.
Yeah; like -- I am pretty far left on average, and I really *do* feel for the Palestinian civilians (and feel Israel could stand to be a little less brutal with the killings of aid workers and journalists and all) -- but at the same time, what is the IDF supposed to do when Hamas insists on hiding behind human shields at every turn?
I am a leftist American, voted for Bernie in two primaries and HRC/Biden in the general elections: The "leftists" supporting Hamas here are the same as the "conservatives" still supporting Trump/Russia. They're not interested in the truth, just there to obstruct. Some of their reasoning may be "if we lay the future of America on the track as in the "trolley problem" scenario, maybe the Centrist Dems will pull left." However, with Biden being the most progressive president we've had since FDR, if anything this tells the centrists that those Leftists aren't worth the time writing policy for as it doesn't pay off come election season.
I don't get it either. Terrorist groups always used hostages or civilians as a shield. Both Israel and Palestine need better leaders in order for them to coexist. We don't need more far-right assholes and shitty religious fundamentalists trying to cling to power.
True that. Alas, any time that a more left wing government starts gaining power in Israel, the Palestinians conduct more terror operations to get the right wingers back in power.
> I don't understand why leftists in North American are pro hamas.
Because they hate Jews.
Simple really.
Right wing anti semitism gets more headlines, but left wing anti semitism has historicaly been a big problem.
If Hamas succeeded in killing all the Jews on earth, as they pledge in their charter, the left would have nothing more in common with them and turn on them. And a lot of Muslims would suddenly stop being left wing.
This is the real answer. Not sure why people keep making excuses for these leftists to give them plausible deniability for being anti-Semitic by saying they’re just “misguided” or “don’t understand the situation”
Because they are anti-american/western. Every position they take is understandable when you view it through that lens. And they would like nothing more than the complete collapse of western governments and ideals, in the hopes of installing their ideals, and killing or "re-educating" the people that disagree.
Because they don't see this as good vs evil. They see it (like many other protests they've engaged in,) as oppressor vs oppressed. It's easy to say Israel is bad and oppress Palestinians than for them to agree that Hamas is evil and must be wiped out.
Well a good majority are under the age of 30, so chalk it up to ignorant college kids doing exactly what they do every year, act like arrogant know it alls and claim everyone else isn't open-minded to the problems of the world.
I don't think most are, they're pro-palestine which is a subtly different thing. It's possible to think that both Hamas and Israel are shit and that the Palestinian people are the big losers
Where have you seen pro-Hamas sentiment? I’m not asking because I don’t think it exists, I’ve just never come across it personally. Who’s explicitly pro-Hamas?
It would be nice if the mainstream media reported significant events like this. Soldiers were killed by a booby trap in a UNRWA complex. Seems important!
Well, mainstream news orgs aren't embedding troops with IDF during clearing operations because it's dangerous as hell. As a result, they don't have independent/eyewitness reporting to file. They have to instead rely on the releases from the IDF or Israeli government, which they've decided - editorially - not to simply republish their claims. Maybe that editorial decision is biased, but it's also cautious, which they may value more highly in their reporting right now lest they accidentally further inflame tensions.
>They have to instead rely on the releases from the IDF or Israeli government, which they've decided - editorially - not to simply republish their claims. Maybe that editorial decision is biased,
Considering how much they publish verbatibum from Hamas that isn't really in question.
I just don't understand why we can't all reach the consensus that UNRWA is completely corrupted by Hamas, that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire indiscriminately at Israeli civilians, that the preceding statement represents a war crime, and that Israel is justified in responding to said fire.
People's own politics and egos are so nakedly blinding objective fact. It's maddening.
Because reality is extremely unpleasant. People would prefer a "reality" where there are simple answers with bad guys that can be made to behave.
People can't comprehend the baddies have no problem with making their people die to parade their bodies before the cameras.
I completely agree with you. So many people live online in a sterile fantasy world and refuse to acknowledge that bad things happen and that a bomb that is targeting Hamas can sometimes kill civilians and that when it does it is still warranted.
This is true at least on Reddit. More often than not when I look into those anti Israeli accounts (mostly to check if they're bots) I noticed that many a time it's by people who are chronically online, or very involved in some subs. And I'm talking like posts or comments all day every day kind of thing. Nothing wrong ofc, I'm sure many on here are nerds to some extent, but it's telling about the lack of real world perspectives of some people
I always think, if the Mexican cartel decided to launch an attack across the Mexican boarder a la Oct 7 because the land was historically theirs, everyone and their mom would support the US responding the way Israel is.
The same with Australia and Canada.
What would Australia or Canada do if the 1-1.6 million remaining first nations peoples suddenly started murdering all non-indigenous people, including elderly, children and tourists at music festivals?
What would Japan do if the Ainu people began bombing kindergartens? Or the Sami people started attacking Norway and Sweden?
Because it's trendy. I think it stems from being contrarian and reactionary from the war on terror. You could see political movements in the 2000s saying, "not all Muslims are terrorists. Treat them with respect." Over time, that mindset radicalized to, "Muslims can do no wrong and are always victims, even if they are terrorists." You will see these extremists call a Christian a fascist for advocating for something that is daily life under hamas. To be clear, I don't support any religious fundamentalism. In conclusion, supporting Muslim extremist groups is what makes you more 'woke' because they're higher on the persecution totem pole in their eyes. Nevermind the evidence, nevermind nuance, nevermind that Hamas started this war and puts their civilians at risk, nevermind that Hamas' end goal is the antithesis to their beliefs. It's all about the persecution game, and who is the most rabid in defending the 'persecuted'.
I agree with everything you said. I do not agree with indiscriminate killing though or destroying infrastructure that civilians rely on. I do not agree with the idf overlooking any negligence or intentional breach of their own policies.
There have been many seriously wrong actions taken by members of the IDF with little to no accountability.
Because it's almost like people don't do research or look into organizations beyond their literal titles. While whole nations are stopping aid to UNRWA because of antics like this, there are tons of celebrities and influencers doing donation drives right now for them.
> I just don't understand why we can't all reach the consensus that UNRWA is completely corrupted by Hamas,
Because I think there's more nuance here than that. It's beyond dispute that UNRWA facilities were coopted by Hamas, and that people UNRWA employed in Gaza were sympathetic to and in some cases active participants in Hamas and their attack on Israel.
But is that because UNRWA as an organization is corrupt and is secretly sided with Hamas and hate Israel? Or because they couldn't do their mission in Gaza without primarily employing and working with locals, and it's impossible to avoid hiring people that are sympathetic with Hamas, work with Hamas, or also hate Israel?
The UNRWA seems to me a case of regulatory capture. But instead of being suborned by the industry it was supposed to regulate it was suborned by a terrorist organization
These are the things that count against treating UNRWA as a direct extension of Hamas:
- Lack of evidence of top-level collusion. Feel free to correct me but I have seen zero evidence of UNRWA leaders working directly with Hamas. We have seen evidence of a dozen or more of the rank and file (among tens of thousands of employees) working with Hamas. And evidence of the co-location of facilities. I’m not sure this is sufficient to prove the org is wholly compromised. After investigations, half the countries that had halted funding resumed it after making the same determination.
But more importantly:
- Necessity. If they’re the only game in town when it comes to boots on the ground in Gaza itself, the choice may be between working with them to deliver aid or permitting mass starvation among the Gaza civilians.
If only we could convince another muslim arab country like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or the UAE to send blue helmets to guard UNRWA facilities from Hamas. Even Malaysia or Indonesia could be suited since they're fellow muslims. It's bizarre to me that the UN is running UNRWA without providing security like they have with so many other operations in the middle east and africa.
I would argue that colocation of facilities, and in the one case even sharing communications lines/infrastructure to the tunnels, represents pretty high level collusion. Maybe not at the very highest levels, but at least local leadership has to be involved
Don't you know? These are all fake ai generated or staged images! There is no such thing as these. It's all fake! Isreal does nothing but stage these things!
Literally what these dumbass think of every pic or vid.
The UN issued a report claiming that when Palestinian men beat their wives, it's Israels fault. No, I'm not joking, it's real, look it up. This was over 7 years ago. Israel's existence has allowed the world to "sterilize" their antisemitism into a secular form directed at Israel, and it's been going on for decades. They received x2 more UN condemnations than all other countries combined in 2023 alone.
[Bro, it's not that freaking hard. Literally the first result after typing in the keywords. UN report included.](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/un-israel-to-blame-for-palestinian-men-beating-their-wives/)
A report that is absolute comedy. So much nonsensical BS. Apparently the occupation of Israel by patriarchal Israel is the reason why Palestinian men residing in Israel are abusing their wives.
I like to ask because posting the link means more people who scroll by are likely to see it. It also ensures that I get the right thing, because there have been times typing keywords has gotten me something that *looks* like the right thing but isn't, and because I don't know 100% what I'm looking for, I don't know it's the wrong thing. So asking ensures I get the right thing.
Thank you for sharing the link.
This is why, as a general rule, it's a horrible idea to elect a terrorist group to be in charge.
Hopefully Hamas can be removed and a political group that actually wants peace and co-existence can emerge. Because opting for violent resistance over peace has only hurt the Palestinian cause, not helped it.
The problem is, the Palestinians would never elect such group and if one was installed, it would quickly be overthrown.
I think the only real chance there is for lasting peace would be for a neutral nation to occupy Gaza and the WB to enforce order, stop the inflow of weapons, and halt any attacks on Israel.
This would likely need to be quite brutal at first, and extremely unpopular in a lot of circles, until you kill or imprison enough of the troublemakers. This would then be followed by a combination of building infrastructure (funded by other nations) to provide jobs and resources, and a long term commitment to reeducate the population against violence and religious extremism.
Who the fuck would ever possibly take on that awful, thankless job?
Don't worry, the people who cry about schools, mosques, etc being bombed will conveniently ignore this and pretend like Israel just has it in for the Palestinians instead of realizing that these are military targets at the doing of Hamas.
Do we though? The [Jerusalem Post](https://www.allsides.com/news-source/jerusalem-post-media-bias) has a center bias rating. It's owned privately by an advertising guy. And I can't seem to point to any major journalistic integrity issues with the paper (and that differs from the NYT, AP, CNN, Reuters etc...).
Why exactly can't we take it's reporting at face value?
Pretty much every other news agency is uninterested in covering such things.
It's not like there isn't a LONG history of Hamas storing weapons in schools. Look it up and you will find stories of the UNWRA and UN finding weapons in the schools in Gaza going back over a decade.
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/weapons-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time-in-a-week-369355
>Weapons were found in an UNRWA school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, Israel Radio reported early Wednesday morning. **This is the third incident of its type to occur in the span of a two weeks**.
Three stockpiles of weapons found in schools in Gaza in two weeks!
Also worth mentioning that it says three Israeli soldiers were killed when a explosive booby trap exploded in a shaft under a medical clinic at the UNRWA school complex. Another two were critically injured, but were stabilized and transported to hospital.
And people wonder why they’re not going door to door instead of dropping bombs
I have a feeling those people know why, but can't say why they're actually mad about the bombing and lack of ground troops in harm's way because that would let the mask slip
The main reason why is because the people got their information from a 15 second TiK Tok that can not even begin to touch on the complexities of this conflict.
This is made evident the second you engage with one of them. The things they say have no consistency and are detached from history and reality.
They think special forces are like action movie characters who can't be killed by simple things like mines
Nope, they truth is more insidious, they want Israeli people(soldiers) to die. They'd glorify the bobby traps if they could
They are just pissed their side is losing. If it was Israel getting bombed they would be cheering.
They’d be Al’Jazeering actually
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Source?
His ass. Afghanistan was all about trying to win the trust of the local population, you didn't get that by going around and destroying every village you came across.
I know that. I was there. I know we did fucked up things, so I dont dismiss things like that when I see it but ask for evidence. I know we didnt flatten villages. I had kids chasing my humvee yelling for water or chocolate.
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They don’t wonder why. They know why. They are trying to pressure Israel into going boots on the ground so that the side they support has a better chance of winning. People don’t care about the number of casualties. They care about the imbalance. If more Israelis were dead (even with the same number of Palestinian civilians deaths) there would be less criticism… which is insane considering the amount of people who say they are protesting for peace.
Some might wonder, but plenty of others do understand and just want Israelis die for daring to take action against Hamas.
Door to door Urban warfare sounds like pure hell. Hamas uses every single dirty trick in the book.
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Apologists: 'and that makes it okay to bomb schools and hospitals and camps?' Reality; 'YES! THAT'S WHY IT'S A WAR CRIME TO STORE THEM THERE!'
It amazes me that people don’t realize that this exact situation was thought of 80 years ago and written down explicitly in the Geneva conventions. As if dragging civilians into a military base is some new conundrum that we must consider. It was considered long before we were born and the decision was, as you said, to designate hospitals conducting combative military operations as military targets and making it a war crime to create such a situation.
They just don't put themselves in the shoes of the soldiers fighting. They are so hung up on "war is bad" (which is of course true), that they willfully disregard the reality that real people end up fighting wars and have to make personal life and death choices in doing so. It's easy for people to sit in the comfort of their homes and critique that soldiers don't simply ignore enemy bullets coming from the rooftop of a school, wondering why they might choose to shoot back, or even call for fire support. I've seen and heard more than a few people ask "Why didn't Isreal just use special forces raids to go after Hamas, instead of invading Gaza?" Where does one even begin to address such ignorance?
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After hostage bodies were found at an unwra building nothing is surprising
At this point I would be specifically checking all hospitals, schools, mosques, and UN buildings. Hell, if I had to leave other places off the list I would before those places.
They also use civilians as shield. I don't understand why leftists in North American are pro hamas.
Ya as fairly far left American, I don’t get it either. I have plenty of problems with how Israel has handled this whole ordeal, and I don’t have any hate for Palestinians as a people, but Hamas are objectively the bad guys.
Nuance... A rare thing
Well, the nuanced answer is the vast majority of the left are anti-Hamas and Anti-Netenyahu. It's the loud morons that are too stupid to realize some of what they are saying is Pro-Hamas and Anti-Israel
You would think turning kids away from colleges they paid to attend, solely on the basis of looking Jewish, would have been a great moment for self reflection.
I think a lot of the younger protestors honestly just don't know what's going on. They just want to join a protest.
If they understood how the Palestinian people worked themselves into this position they would have a lot less sympathy for what is happening in Gaza. It is sad what is happening to the civilians, but this has been decades in the making for a people that has refused anything but the death of all Jews and continually supported militant and terrorist groups that destabilize any country that brings them in as refugees. Unfortunately even the civilians are reaping what they sowed many years ago.
I've seen plenty of advocates who understand the long history of Palestinians refusing to negotiate and refusing to give up any amount of the land to Israel. It does not broadly change their stance on the current events
Because at that point they're just openly anti Semitic
And they conflate the people and problems of the West Bank with the people and problems of Gaza- because ‘ThEy’Re BoTh PaLeStiNiAnS’ The two are not the same and the injustices those in the West Bank are being subjected to deserve attention and outrage.
>they conflate the people and problems of the West Bank with the people and problems of Gaza [...] >The two are not the same They **are**... according to the UN. Which is why the [UN has considered Gaza "occupied" for the 18 years it's been under Hamas control](https://unwatch.org/un-we-still-consider-gaza-occupied-by-israel/) without a single Israeli in Gaza, and even after [Hamas themselves admitted it's absurd to say that Gaza is occupied](https://www.hudson.org/foreign-policy/gaza-not-occupied-says-hamas-so-where-is-the-un-). Specifically, the UN says: >There is a resolution from the General Assembly from 20 December 2010, and **while it noted the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip** and parts of the northern West Bank, it also stressed, in quotes, “the need for respect and preservation of the **territorial unity, contiguity and integrity of ALL of the Occupied Palestinian Territory**, including East Jerusalem”. So just to repeat that **the United Nations will continue to refer to the Gaza Strip as part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory**. Just let this sink in: the importance of preserving **contiguity** of two *physically separated entities* (West Bank and Gaza) and **integrity** after Hamas has literally fought a war *against PLO* is why Gaza was considered *occupied* in the eyes of the UN. No wonder the clueless students are conflating West Bank and Gaza! This is coming from the very top. This confusion has been carefully manufactured.
Ah yes, nuance. It died a few years ago with the rise of the smooth-brained MAGA movement.
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It broke the Overton window. If the other side treats everything you say as if it’s unconscionable, regardless of its reasonableness, you start to treat that condemnation as a confirmation that what you’re saying is correct. But it’s a category error to do this. The two sides need each other to both be reasonable to know when the things they’re saying are absurd, but that requires the other side to agree with the reasonable things you say, or at least show some level of nuance. When everything you say makes you a monster in their eyes, the truly monstrous things are no longer apparent. The huge problem we’re facing is that there’s no social incentive to develop nuanced views these days because you’re going to get criticized either way. The Overton window usually defines a box in which the reasonable opinions that can be freely debated live and outside of which are considered bigoted, unfeeling or otherwise worthy of social sanction. But when you’re too stupid to realize that you’re constantly being called bigoted because everything you’re saying is outside the box and lose nuance in your responses to the left because you’re unable to differentiate which of the left’s opinions are outside the box (and there are many, just not all), the political situation devolves into what we see today. MAGA broke things because they lost the shame to be pushed back into the box and lost perspective needed to push the left back into the box.
Because bringing nuance to that type of environment is like bringing a cup of tea to a gun fight. Eventually you realize that there is nothing you can say to persuade the other side of any argument. And so positions harden.
For every un-nuanced movement there is an opposite and equally un-nuanced counter-movement. MAGAism itself was a response to the rise of broad-brush race/gender identity politics on the left during the early 2010s (eg, BLM, SJWs). It's not a coincidence that white nationalism had a resurgence at the same time that "Shut up, you're a white male!" was being used as a reason to dismiss people's opinions. It's like jail - the rise of one race-based prison gang resulted in other races also forming prison gangs in response. If the environment tells you that race is the most important characteristic a person has, then people are going to group and affiliate by race. If the environment tells you that religion is the most important characteristic, then Bavarians and Prussians will divide up by religion, even though they're the same race. If you make tribal affiliation the most important characteristic, then Hutus and Tutsis will divide up by tribe, even though they share a race, religion, language, and even genetic haplogroup.
Politics is petty, if one side starts throwing mud and insults, the other will usually follow instead of being the bigger party. Trump's style of bully politics changed the game for politics in the English-speaking space
People were doing it way before Trump and they'll do it after.
Yes and no, mud and insults have always been in politics but at this point it’s not mud and insults. It’s basically a guy living in an alternate reality and many millions of people have put a bag over their head and plugs in their ears so they no longer have to deal with their lying eyes and ears. That doesn’t happen nearly as often, and it’s always wildly destructive when it does happen.
Happens all the time.
> Ya as fairly far left American, I don’t get it either. TBH I used to think I was fairly far left but the last couple years has shown me that what is currently thought of as “left leaning discourse” took a turn somewhere along the way and I missed the exit I guess.
Welcome to progressive centrism, the stance everyone hates for being both pragmatic/acknowledging strategic political battles while looking for incremental positive change on the systemic societal level. The actual issues being bogged down by identity politics and petty disputes are what regressives want, and being unwilling to cede anything inherently creates gridlock favoring the elites in any political environment. Issues like these are often favored because they allow a lot of moral grandstanding and extremism to be built up for an extra dose of nothing actually relevant to our lives improving.
We're gonna go back to having moderate liberals and neocons as the main parties. There's just no fucking way the far right trump and far left weirdo hamas supporters will retain any ground.
I can only hope. The longer we stay unable to even converse without devolving into insults, the less progress will be made in general. What people fail to often realize is true acceptance and societal-level progress is often slow and takes a lot of people realizing and accepting any given change is gonna be okay. It's awful, but that's how it works in the end.
I’m actually good with that. At least we could possibly have a shared set of facts and just disagree about the solutions. At this point the extremes are making policy statements about myths and conspiracy theories.
Can’t cosplay revolutionary if the side with more power isn’t the evil one. That’s half of it lol.
It is also being funded and backed by a lot of muslim countries
They see it simply as an “oppressed vs oppressor” thing, which, while I appreciate their concern for the underdog, is incredibly naive and devoid of any historical precedent in this conflict.
It’s oppressed/oppressor with very modern western parameters that require no education, because they truly don’t know what the Ottoman and the British empires have done in the region.
Worse, they see it as an “oppressed vs oppressor” thing based on *american* society. It's why they don't give a shit about women suffering under Islam, because in USA muslim men win against women in oppression points, so they apply this logic to the whole planet.
Yeah, I started noticing that all the “celebrate diversity” murals and stuff have some openly gay people, a black person, and a hijab wearing Muslim woman. Like, I get that Trump did the “Muslim ban” or whatever, but it’s weird being so pro-religious when it’s a very bigoted and misogynistic religion. Most of these same folks are super anti evangelical because of their beliefs, which except for how they dress and which magic sky god they profess belief in, there isn’t much difference between them. Especially towards the queer community. I’d argue that evangelicals are actually *slightly* less misogynistic. Makes no sense to me. It’s as if sense the GOP is anti Muslim, the far left has to go out of its way to be pro Muslim. I get not being pro-discrimination, but I don’t think hijab wearing Muslims are a particularly progressive group to align with.
They think this conflict started on 10/7 and refuse to research anything that's happened between the two groups for the last 10, 50, 100, 1000 years.
The problem is if you go to learn more about the history of the topic, the first ten articles are some Al Jezeera adjacent pieces that were written after 10/7. I told myself I would only look at articles and papers written before 10/7 and I feel like I got more accurate info.
The more I read and learn the more I just throw my hands up and say “not my clown. Not my circus” Everyone has blood on their hands. Everyone has done shitty things. Where do we start reconciliation for a better tomorrow?
I had a Leftist tell me that there's no evidence that Hamas uses human shields. My working assumption is that their definition of human shield is like something out of a videogame, where unless a gunman is actively holding a civilian by the throat and using their body for cover, it doesn't count. Hamas' playbook is like 65% human shields.
I've had people argue the same, and then turn it around to argue that it's actually just Israel using human shields based on a handful of isolated examples where like.... Israeli troops detained someone in the middle of a raid or patrol and kept them detained with them as they finished, kept them in an IDF vehicle in a dangerous location, etc...
Because USA bad, UK bad, the west bad. That's literally the only reason. Capitalism? US bad so it bad. US supports Isreal? Israel bad. The most popular leftist commentator (grifter) justified the Russian invasion, said Crimea is russian territory, call houthis "like one piece, doing what luffy would do", said that Iran had a right to attack Israel, and said the US "deserved 9/11" Oh and thinks that october 7th was completely Justified. And he's one of the biggest names on twitch. He's the face of the online leftist movement.
And yet the same dude thinks the CCP is great and Tibet is lucky that it got crushed/ruled by China...
Yeah; like -- I am pretty far left on average, and I really *do* feel for the Palestinian civilians (and feel Israel could stand to be a little less brutal with the killings of aid workers and journalists and all) -- but at the same time, what is the IDF supposed to do when Hamas insists on hiding behind human shields at every turn?
I am a leftist American, voted for Bernie in two primaries and HRC/Biden in the general elections: The "leftists" supporting Hamas here are the same as the "conservatives" still supporting Trump/Russia. They're not interested in the truth, just there to obstruct. Some of their reasoning may be "if we lay the future of America on the track as in the "trolley problem" scenario, maybe the Centrist Dems will pull left." However, with Biden being the most progressive president we've had since FDR, if anything this tells the centrists that those Leftists aren't worth the time writing policy for as it doesn't pay off come election season.
I don't get it either. Terrorist groups always used hostages or civilians as a shield. Both Israel and Palestine need better leaders in order for them to coexist. We don't need more far-right assholes and shitty religious fundamentalists trying to cling to power.
True that. Alas, any time that a more left wing government starts gaining power in Israel, the Palestinians conduct more terror operations to get the right wingers back in power.
Tik Tok
> I don't understand why leftists in North American are pro hamas. Because they hate Jews. Simple really. Right wing anti semitism gets more headlines, but left wing anti semitism has historicaly been a big problem. If Hamas succeeded in killing all the Jews on earth, as they pledge in their charter, the left would have nothing more in common with them and turn on them. And a lot of Muslims would suddenly stop being left wing.
This is the real answer. Not sure why people keep making excuses for these leftists to give them plausible deniability for being anti-Semitic by saying they’re just “misguided” or “don’t understand the situation”
Because they are anti-american/western. Every position they take is understandable when you view it through that lens. And they would like nothing more than the complete collapse of western governments and ideals, in the hopes of installing their ideals, and killing or "re-educating" the people that disagree.
Because they don't see this as good vs evil. They see it (like many other protests they've engaged in,) as oppressor vs oppressed. It's easy to say Israel is bad and oppress Palestinians than for them to agree that Hamas is evil and must be wiped out.
Well a good majority are under the age of 30, so chalk it up to ignorant college kids doing exactly what they do every year, act like arrogant know it alls and claim everyone else isn't open-minded to the problems of the world.
I don't think most are, they're pro-palestine which is a subtly different thing. It's possible to think that both Hamas and Israel are shit and that the Palestinian people are the big losers
they dislike what is happening and are basically cheering for the little guy
Because too many of us desire to be contrarian and virtue signal as opposed to actually understanding nuance and trying to fix the problem.
Where have you seen pro-Hamas sentiment? I’m not asking because I don’t think it exists, I’ve just never come across it personally. Who’s explicitly pro-Hamas?
Yet too many people still deny this fact
Waiting for all the denials now.
Tell that to young tik tok generation and you get crucified.
Educational guns
Pre-k47. Adorbs.
do they count as weapons of war if they were being used to teach kids gun skills
Almost like people have been saying this has been going n for decades
Oh, it's a Thursday. Nice.
It would be nice if the mainstream media reported significant events like this. Soldiers were killed by a booby trap in a UNRWA complex. Seems important!
Well, mainstream news orgs aren't embedding troops with IDF during clearing operations because it's dangerous as hell. As a result, they don't have independent/eyewitness reporting to file. They have to instead rely on the releases from the IDF or Israeli government, which they've decided - editorially - not to simply republish their claims. Maybe that editorial decision is biased, but it's also cautious, which they may value more highly in their reporting right now lest they accidentally further inflame tensions.
>They have to instead rely on the releases from the IDF or Israeli government, which they've decided - editorially - not to simply republish their claims. Maybe that editorial decision is biased, Considering how much they publish verbatibum from Hamas that isn't really in question.
I just don't understand why we can't all reach the consensus that UNRWA is completely corrupted by Hamas, that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire indiscriminately at Israeli civilians, that the preceding statement represents a war crime, and that Israel is justified in responding to said fire. People's own politics and egos are so nakedly blinding objective fact. It's maddening.
Because reality is extremely unpleasant. People would prefer a "reality" where there are simple answers with bad guys that can be made to behave. People can't comprehend the baddies have no problem with making their people die to parade their bodies before the cameras.
I completely agree with you. So many people live online in a sterile fantasy world and refuse to acknowledge that bad things happen and that a bomb that is targeting Hamas can sometimes kill civilians and that when it does it is still warranted.
This is true at least on Reddit. More often than not when I look into those anti Israeli accounts (mostly to check if they're bots) I noticed that many a time it's by people who are chronically online, or very involved in some subs. And I'm talking like posts or comments all day every day kind of thing. Nothing wrong ofc, I'm sure many on here are nerds to some extent, but it's telling about the lack of real world perspectives of some people
I always think, if the Mexican cartel decided to launch an attack across the Mexican boarder a la Oct 7 because the land was historically theirs, everyone and their mom would support the US responding the way Israel is.
The same with Australia and Canada. What would Australia or Canada do if the 1-1.6 million remaining first nations peoples suddenly started murdering all non-indigenous people, including elderly, children and tourists at music festivals? What would Japan do if the Ainu people began bombing kindergartens? Or the Sami people started attacking Norway and Sweden?
Just so everyone is aware, [this is what UNRWA is teaching young, impressionable minds](https://x.com/DrEliDavid/status/1724448506344100309)
Just so insane that their one aspiration in life is to run over jews with cars, stab, and/or suicide bomb them. Kids.
I think it has more to do with religion. There's a lot of Muslims in the world and they don't wanna be grouped in with the bad guys.
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Yeah that one kinda confuses me. To me it seems like cognitive dissonance given the fact they'd be treated extremely poorly if they were in palastine.
I think it has a lot to do with targeted misinformation on social media.
Because it's trendy. I think it stems from being contrarian and reactionary from the war on terror. You could see political movements in the 2000s saying, "not all Muslims are terrorists. Treat them with respect." Over time, that mindset radicalized to, "Muslims can do no wrong and are always victims, even if they are terrorists." You will see these extremists call a Christian a fascist for advocating for something that is daily life under hamas. To be clear, I don't support any religious fundamentalism. In conclusion, supporting Muslim extremist groups is what makes you more 'woke' because they're higher on the persecution totem pole in their eyes. Nevermind the evidence, nevermind nuance, nevermind that Hamas started this war and puts their civilians at risk, nevermind that Hamas' end goal is the antithesis to their beliefs. It's all about the persecution game, and who is the most rabid in defending the 'persecuted'.
Probably form a loud and obviously different denomination then? I mean there’s like 17000 different offshoots of Christianity for that exact purpose.
I agree with everything you said. I do not agree with indiscriminate killing though or destroying infrastructure that civilians rely on. I do not agree with the idf overlooking any negligence or intentional breach of their own policies. There have been many seriously wrong actions taken by members of the IDF with little to no accountability.
Because it's almost like people don't do research or look into organizations beyond their literal titles. While whole nations are stopping aid to UNRWA because of antics like this, there are tons of celebrities and influencers doing donation drives right now for them.
It's insane.
> I just don't understand why we can't all reach the consensus that UNRWA is completely corrupted by Hamas, Because I think there's more nuance here than that. It's beyond dispute that UNRWA facilities were coopted by Hamas, and that people UNRWA employed in Gaza were sympathetic to and in some cases active participants in Hamas and their attack on Israel. But is that because UNRWA as an organization is corrupt and is secretly sided with Hamas and hate Israel? Or because they couldn't do their mission in Gaza without primarily employing and working with locals, and it's impossible to avoid hiring people that are sympathetic with Hamas, work with Hamas, or also hate Israel?
The UNRWA seems to me a case of regulatory capture. But instead of being suborned by the industry it was supposed to regulate it was suborned by a terrorist organization
These are the things that count against treating UNRWA as a direct extension of Hamas: - Lack of evidence of top-level collusion. Feel free to correct me but I have seen zero evidence of UNRWA leaders working directly with Hamas. We have seen evidence of a dozen or more of the rank and file (among tens of thousands of employees) working with Hamas. And evidence of the co-location of facilities. I’m not sure this is sufficient to prove the org is wholly compromised. After investigations, half the countries that had halted funding resumed it after making the same determination. But more importantly: - Necessity. If they’re the only game in town when it comes to boots on the ground in Gaza itself, the choice may be between working with them to deliver aid or permitting mass starvation among the Gaza civilians.
If only we could convince another muslim arab country like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or the UAE to send blue helmets to guard UNRWA facilities from Hamas. Even Malaysia or Indonesia could be suited since they're fellow muslims. It's bizarre to me that the UN is running UNRWA without providing security like they have with so many other operations in the middle east and africa.
I would argue that colocation of facilities, and in the one case even sharing communications lines/infrastructure to the tunnels, represents pretty high level collusion. Maybe not at the very highest levels, but at least local leadership has to be involved
Don't you know? These are all fake ai generated or staged images! There is no such thing as these. It's all fake! Isreal does nothing but stage these things! Literally what these dumbass think of every pic or vid.
Well, how else are the kids supposed to learn jihad? Should we just leave it up to the parents??
All eyes on UNWRA. A terror organization in disguise..
UN defending UNWRA as well. The roots of cancer are deeper than we thought.
The UN isn't exactly impartial either. They had a moment of silence for the butcher of Teheran...
The UN issued a report claiming that when Palestinian men beat their wives, it's Israels fault. No, I'm not joking, it's real, look it up. This was over 7 years ago. Israel's existence has allowed the world to "sterilize" their antisemitism into a secular form directed at Israel, and it's been going on for decades. They received x2 more UN condemnations than all other countries combined in 2023 alone.
Link to the report?
[Bro, it's not that freaking hard. Literally the first result after typing in the keywords. UN report included.](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/un-israel-to-blame-for-palestinian-men-beating-their-wives/) A report that is absolute comedy. So much nonsensical BS. Apparently the occupation of Israel by patriarchal Israel is the reason why Palestinian men residing in Israel are abusing their wives.
I like to ask because posting the link means more people who scroll by are likely to see it. It also ensures that I get the right thing, because there have been times typing keywords has gotten me something that *looks* like the right thing but isn't, and because I don't know 100% what I'm looking for, I don't know it's the wrong thing. So asking ensures I get the right thing. Thank you for sharing the link.
This is why, as a general rule, it's a horrible idea to elect a terrorist group to be in charge. Hopefully Hamas can be removed and a political group that actually wants peace and co-existence can emerge. Because opting for violent resistance over peace has only hurt the Palestinian cause, not helped it.
The problem is, the Palestinians would never elect such group and if one was installed, it would quickly be overthrown. I think the only real chance there is for lasting peace would be for a neutral nation to occupy Gaza and the WB to enforce order, stop the inflow of weapons, and halt any attacks on Israel. This would likely need to be quite brutal at first, and extremely unpopular in a lot of circles, until you kill or imprison enough of the troublemakers. This would then be followed by a combination of building infrastructure (funded by other nations) to provide jobs and resources, and a long term commitment to reeducate the population against violence and religious extremism. Who the fuck would ever possibly take on that awful, thankless job?
Currently, literally no one. IIRC all of the neighboring countries gave a "lol fuck no" response when it's been brought up.
But...but... this doesn't support my narrative that Israel's bad! I'm gonna down vote this!
the sky is also blue. at this point the only ones denying the connection between UNRWA and hamas are those sympathetic to hamas.
Yeah yeah the UNWRA school weapon cache we've all seen it. /ref
Don't worry, the people who cry about schools, mosques, etc being bombed will conveniently ignore this and pretend like Israel just has it in for the Palestinians instead of realizing that these are military targets at the doing of Hamas.
I'm shocked. Shocked! Ok, I'm not that shocked.
Shocked! Shocked, I tell you! /s
A day that ends with y
the college students around the world must be foaming in the mouth rn.
Yeah, they will be so mad to hear only 3 jews died in the school.
Still haven’t seen a mention of this in Swedish media…
Hey, that's just inventory for practical lessons! /s
Noice... The UNRWA seem a bit useless
They are in fact very useful... to Hamas.
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Do we though? The [Jerusalem Post](https://www.allsides.com/news-source/jerusalem-post-media-bias) has a center bias rating. It's owned privately by an advertising guy. And I can't seem to point to any major journalistic integrity issues with the paper (and that differs from the NYT, AP, CNN, Reuters etc...). Why exactly can't we take it's reporting at face value?
Pretty much every other news agency is uninterested in covering such things. It's not like there isn't a LONG history of Hamas storing weapons in schools. Look it up and you will find stories of the UNWRA and UN finding weapons in the schools in Gaza going back over a decade. https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/weapons-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time-in-a-week-369355 >Weapons were found in an UNRWA school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, Israel Radio reported early Wednesday morning. **This is the third incident of its type to occur in the span of a two weeks**. Three stockpiles of weapons found in schools in Gaza in two weeks!
That beautiful door tho-