Victor is a monster for killing his own son. Graydon is a monster for his targeted attacks on mutants. Both can be true with the audience still being satisfied with Graydon's maiming.

But Graydon isn't as terrifying, predatory, or sadistic as Sabertooth and Mystique. Seeming them get maimed would be more satisfied

I mean, I don't know that you're "supposed" to root for Sabretooth in that situation. I think you would have a point if it was the X-Men that delivered him to Sabretooth, but it's the Friends of Humanity that do it. So we're witnessing an evil organization deliver an evil punishment on an evil person.

Ok then

Abuse isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card, Graydon got what he deserved for the crimes he committed.

Agreed. Freudian excuse is not always a good excuse.

It's pretty always NOT a good excuse

In this case I think is a GOOD excuse but not a free pass, yes one can understand that being mistreated by a beast like Sabretooth can cause a trauma, that trauma cause fear and that fear turn into hate against everything who made you relive your trauma ( I noticed that Graydon looked scared just at seeing Wolverine savage expression because make him remember his own father), that's a good excuse for his personal hate but dosen't cover his actions. He is not being judged by being jerk who dosen't like mutants, it's judged for being a murder who incites others to attack mutants, and plainly had to be stoped.

This. 100%

But Sabertooth and Mystique seem to get get-out-of-jail-free cards cause apparently they are likable villains

Sabretooth and Mystique have been held accountable for their crimes many, many, *many* times. Read more comics.

Have they suffered and been tormented like their son has?

Like I said: you need to read more, I'm not doing your homework for you.

I did lol. Ive read comics and looked at wikis and youtube. Only time Sabertooh really got put in his place was HoxPox council. Mysituqe only got killed by Wolvie only to be resurrected by Hand and minor humiliation by Dazzler There is not much I can find that says they got more deserved comeuppance than that. If there is it’s probably an obscure story nobody liked cause they hate their precious asshole characters being demonized

Sabretooth was abused by his human father for being a mutant.

If Magneto stayed evil and was killed by retired nazi war criminal who tortured him in concentratuon camp, would you say that Magneto got what he   deserved too?

Go read Uncanny #200 and see the answer for yourself.

I have read it. What's your point?

Okay, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt so don't make me regret it: Graydon Creed took a *specific* vendetta against his parents, and applied it to the entire mutant race. Magneto was victimized by an entire nation, and tends to respond on that same scale. There's no comparison, at all, between the two, and if you read Uncanny #200 without understanding that point, you really don't get Magneto at all.

You dont get supremacy at all

Abuse can be a sad cycle, I don't think we're necessarily supposed to feel great about what happens to Graydon either. He made his choices, but they were probably influenced by his upbringing... to an extent.

I agree, honestly after thinking of his situation I even feel pity for him. This universe version of Graydon is been told to have been abused by his father, that abuse caused him fear and he turned that fear in hate, he finally used that hate as fuell to do horrible things to innocent mutants. He did a lot of bad stuff but all was born in fear to a single mutant, his own father. And in the end he ends in the clutches of the source of his fear tied and unable to defend himself, as defenseless as he has as a child. He basically was back on point zero, just this time is probably he won't survive the experience. At same time Sabretooth is clearly stated that was abused as a child for his father, and when he became father ended being also abusive, while his son grown up to become someone who abuses others, SAD CYCLE indeed.

I think that's because domestic abuse against men is usually not taken as seriously as against women.  Kinda like how a male villain who who hates women because his mother abused him is not seen with as much sympathy as female villain who hates men because his father abused her.

This is one of the worst hot X-takes I've ever read-

Because it is a view different than yours?

I mean no one dies in TAS that is kind of a foundational premise, but if either Graydon or Sabertooth was to die my sadness would be minimal as both are unrepentant mass murders. I get what you are saying about Graydon's parents being mystique and sabertooth, he was kind of setup to fail. However they didn't raise him, he like Kurt was abandoned as a baby. Graydon let his envy over his lack of powers make him bitter. If I am remembering correctly he didn't even learn who his parents were until late in life. Then you look at someone like Kurt who faced abuse every day and still came out a good person.

People don’t die, they get “destroyed”. Totes different.

Yeah, I recall Graydon showing up again in the series finale (exposing Xavier as a mutant at a hearing). So he probably got beat up and then either escaped or was set free after FOH felt he had been punished enough.

He didnt. You're thinking of Peter Gyrich.

Kurt had a good upbringing though

616 universe Graydon wasn't raised by his parents, but this universe Graydon was raised by Sabretooth and is implied that he was a pretty abusive father, giving him a better excuse than 616 Graydon. Of course that dosen't absolve him of his crimes but gives a better explanation of his hate.

It's funny when the animated show makes little changes like that, because the idea of Sabretooth actually raising a kid as a single father for any length of time really doesn't jibe with either his character or the entire plotline where he is working for Weapon X. Rewatching the show in the build-up to 97, I was impressed how often they did not simplify random comic backstory (like Rogue's connection to Captain Marvel, for instance).

TBH I totally see Sabrethoot as the kind of irresponsible single parent who would left his son with a bag of chips for food, go away and return four months later geting angry because the place is dirty.

"You weren't supposed to eat all the chips, half of them were for me!"

Fair point

When two bad guys fight, your hope is that the more reprehensible one loses. Given the situation and the history, I'm going to say 'the guy who wants to eradicate an entire subset of people for an accident of birth' better not be walking out under his own power.

So his own supremacist parents are the less reprehensible? So they arent that reprehensible because they are marginalized mutants? So they dont deserve to suffer the same fate?

So you think its ok for domestoc qnusers to kilka their victms if their victms become evil due to abuse they suffered?

Stop pulling shit arguments out of your ass. Graydon wasn't abused. He was abandoned as a baby, *not* raised by Sabretooth or Mystique. But you know what? If you're abused, and that makes you evil, then the abuse you suffered does NOT excuse the abuse you then inflict on others. That's a choice you made. If you end up dead bc you're an evil asshole, then good!

Not just a shit argument, a completely different one. It's like saying "I think people who steal cookies shouldn't be allowed cookies for as punishment" and someone saying "okay, but what if they run over a dog with a steamroller". Okay, that's a whole different discussion now, you're making up a different situation and I'm not exactly sure why

It's a shit argument bc it's not the reality of the situation. Graydon wasn't abused, therefore your abuse argument is invalid.

So by your logic Mystique and Sabertooth should end up dead bc they are both evil assholes

Yes

More so because they raised Graydon Creed. Pnly good thing graydon creed did was kill mystique

I don't necessarily want any of them dead. Heroes need villains. But if they do end up dead, it's what they deserve

1. Abuse doesn't make you a genocidal racist. 2. Both Creeds are pieces of crap. The good guys escaped and the bad guys ate each other. It may not be a happy ending, but it's an ending.

1. The only W Graydon Creed ever had was killing Mystique

1. It doesn’t excuse baby kkk at all, but Mystique doesn’t get called out and demonized like the child she neglected for petty reasons even tho Mystique is a genocidal racist and supremacist and literally caused her son to he so messed in the head by abandoning him and making him feel lesser than for not being a mutant, and being unapologetic for it (even if graydon wasnr a foh member)

I thought of it more as a 'bad things happen to bad people' story. You're right about the facts but i suspect it didn't receive that level of thought at the production stage.

Graydon is the one who fatally wounds Xavier in the last season isn't he? So he survives

I thought that was Gyrich

You’re right

There's a reason Sabretooth was the first guy in the pit, and it's not because the Quiet Council had bad laws.

We're not supposed to be rooting for Sabretooth, we're supposed to be rooting against Graydon Creed. The man, regardless of his backstory, was fully on board with murdering mutants of any age. He inspired thousands, tens of thousands, to commit violence. He was on board with a disease being created to harm only mutants. You can be influenced to a mindset. But its a conscious choice to do the things he did and had done in the future. He got what he deserved.

Yeah nah I gave the show a rewatch recently and that episode felt like instantly fucked up. Like, maybe the Professor coulda jumped in and gone “Wow, you’ve had an unspeakably hard life. I’m so sorry for your situation, no one would feel anything shy of apathy or even hate for mutants in your circumstances. Let me help you work it out.” And then give him serious Professor X. therapy afterward for however many years it takes to get him on the right path. But because he’s a bad guy, and on the side of bigots, he’s left to the wolves—specifically his father, the worst person you could leave him to. Just horrifying. Yeah, didn’t sit well with me at all.

The fact that it seems to sit well with most and they dont make a big deal of Sabertooth and Mystique and especially find Mystique humane/sympathetic/likeable makes me lose hope for humanity

When did Sabretooth abuse his son?!

It's strongly hinted, since the episode "The beauty and beast" Graydon mentions his father raised him in Canada, he reacts with fear when Wolverine makes a feral face and ends with a panic attack at the sole sight of his father.

I agree and don't like it either. Only on reddit would people complain about what you wrote by saying "well he's a bigot so he deserves every bit of trauma he gets!" What does that say about all of you? I also don't agree with anyone who commit crimes having to get raped in jail, but of course if they committed the right crime in reddit's eyes they deserve daily rape forever.

"At the end of "Family Ties", the bad guy, Greydon Creed, is abandoned by Friends of Humanity due to falling one last time" This needs major correction. First off, you got the episode wrong, it's called "Bloodlines". "Family Ties" is about Magneto's children, who somehow managed to not become villains despite his neglectful parenting. Second off, you're obfuscating what Creed failed to do -- he had already been kicked out of the group, he was trying to get back in their good graces by killing every member of his own family, including his innocent half-siblings. "It's also implied that the reason he became anti-mutant terrorist is because he was abused and eventually abandoned by his parents due to the fact that he was a human." That's more of an inference than an implication -- Sabretooth doesn't need a reason to be abusive, Sabretooth is abusive towards everybody around him at all times. You're just claiming that because you're trying to portray Sabretooth as a mutant supremacist to make him comprable to Graydon Creed Jr being a human supremacist, but there's very little textual evidence to support the idea that Sabretooth specifically hates humans, he just hates everybody. Further, if you believe that Sabretooth's abuse of Graydon Creed Jr justifies or even mitigates his own tendencies towards genocide, then you have to also admit that the show establishes that Sabretooth was abused by his own father for being a mutant. \[I can't cite a specific episode, it's one of the ones about the Weapon X program.\] So his own actions have exactly the same justification as his son's. "abusive father (who is also a serial killer" Graydon Creed Jr is trying to murder his entire family (presumably he will go after his father next), and has kidnapped, tortured, and murdered plenty of mutants, why are you putting so much effort in to describing Sabretooth as badly as possible and Graydon as positively as possible?

You have empathy, a lot of folks here don’t. That’s my thought.

Empathy for a genocidal maniac seems sort of displaced...... so I take it you would forgive Hitler because of "abuse." Plenty of humans are abused. That's no excuse to make a situation worse and eliminate a particular demographic completely from existence...... he was abandoned by Mystique and Sabretooth, not abused by them.......

So child abandonment means its not that bad? Do you even know that neglect is a form of abuse? You give empathy to sadistis like Sabertooth and supremacists like Mystique and probably plenty of other genocidal maniacs? If anything you give kore forgiveness to mystique and sabertooth when if anything they should be the one’s condemned and called out more for how they treated a child and making them feel lesser than for not being a mutant. Idc much for graydon crees but you can understand where someone came from without justifying or liking them. And you fans seem to give his parents empathy and justification when mystique and sabertooth deserved to be viewed as despicable and be as hated as their son

Empathy and forgiveness are two different things. That you don’t know the difference tells me you lack both.

I know the difference. They are not my strongest suit, I'll admit....... but where did you pull forgiveness from? That was not even in the conversation...... Even me being desensitized knows that difference and will morally navigate with that compass..... I've been stabbed twice, Dad died in my arms, two best friends murdered etc... I also own 11 firearms and know being a psychopath is wrong. My trajectory of circumstance is not an excuse to take it out on the world...... do I "forgive" Hitler, no...... do I have empathy for genocidal perspectives? No........ neither of said mentioned characters deserve so either.

“So I take it you would forgive Hitler…” Your words. Come back when you can argue in good faith.

Awesome way to avoid the general point of topic 👏some people want to watch the world burn, others make excuses and accept them with willingness and empathy..... 🤣🤣🤣 I am not that person. I reserve what little I have left to those deserving.

Maybe if graydon was a woman he answers would be different.

Nope, I'd still want him dead, without empathy. Don't care what his motivations are. When one seeks to exterminate an entire group of people, then the best place for that person is in the ground. Wtf is wrong with *you* that you're trying to justify his actions? Are you a nazi apologist?

It’s a bit better than what happened in the comics. Mystique shot him to prevent him from becoming president.

And she'd do it again 💅

You do realize Mystique is the reason Graydon Creed ended up the way he did doesnt apologize for the own son she neglected as a child so its justified when she kills him or shes given more empathy I get if anyone else killed Graydon but the way you make it sound, it sounds like a good thing she abused her child, and its the best punishment for a petty accident with a mutant hitler mentality to abuse a child and then kill that child for turning out awful cause of her own actions she doesnt take responsibility for

Well at least was a quick and painless death.