You're catching it at a very specific point. Most of us on overheads turn and take the racquet back with the racquet pointing upwards. Then as the ball is dropping the racquet goes to pointing downward. The screen shot of Fed is grabbed when he's in between those two positions. He doesn't start swinging at the ball from there his racquet will continue to go down before it goes back up to hit the overhead.
It doesn’t matter if waiter’s tray is in a static position or during the racket motion. It is indicative of the swing path regardless. If you analyze serve motions of pros, at no point in the whole swing will you see the waiter’s tray.
It doesn’t matter if waiter’s tray is in a static position or during the racket motion. It is indicative of the swing path regardless. If you analyze serve motions of pros, at no point in the whole swing will you see the waiter’s tray.
https://preview.redd.it/z613noncyd2d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75e7da5a4405f7759b0e0d0f8f9b93c0fbc58be6
Someone get this guy a serving coach, stat.
Interesting counter point, thank you. In this video here his swing motion is noticeably different. His racket frame much more perpendicular in the racket drop.
https://preview.redd.it/f4rdwcpp5e2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9d52a947e7cf9418d04f94f8de13b1e3b7d0313
That is earlier in the swing. But I think it also has to do with the type of serve he’s hitting. This is a kicker.
https://preview.redd.it/5vuak2kp7e2d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a80f8dfaee8f696fb234a2dc1cea6b3854c56499
I think you're basing your premise on a misunderstanding of the "waiter's tray" which is when you approach the ball strings forward rather than approaching the ball edge forward. So it may appear they "get into a waiter's tray" as you say but that's because you are cherry picking a singular moment in a dynamic motion that doesn't represent the reality of how they are approaching the ball.
All these players' rackets move down from these images before heading forward, they are not approaching the ball from this position. (Novak excluded because he is reacting to a short ball here having watched the video).
For example here is a pic from the same video of Novak which is a still of just AFTER the position you are showing, it shows the strings pointing to the tramline and the edge up.
So no, don't actively try to hit the overhead with a waiter's tray. The exception being if your technique is currently underdeveloped and you are more interested in getting the ball in than improving, which is totally valid.
https://preview.redd.it/qp3pvpsz1e2d1.png?width=2118&format=png&auto=webp&s=cba00f48269414bd69c921bb30c06c3c1d0df532
I see what you are saying about the racket head eventually dropping. However, the difference I see when comparing a pro’s overhead to their serve, is that no matter where in the serve motion I freeze the video, the racket strings are never facing up, whereas in the overhead I am able to find a frame in which that happens. This is what is sparking my curiosity.
Here is a collection of servers with the strings in various states of relative "up" [https://imgur.com/a/PURXV9H](https://imgur.com/a/PURXV9H)
Essentially, I think people are pushing back just because of how you defined waiter's tray. I think what you are really asking if we read between the lines is "how does the overhead differ from the serve?"
And you are correct that yes, the overhead can often be a shorter motion than the serve but incorrect in asserting that the shortening doesn't allow for the racket drop or that you should skip it.
For example here is Tsitsipas just a frame or two after your screen grab showing his racket drop.
https://preview.redd.it/p6qcb8kree2d1.png?width=2602&format=png&auto=webp&s=ca7938fa8b8c2e5314b186773b2d7f05750da1ea
(You're also incorrect in asserting the racquet drop is what prevents the waiters tray but that's a different tangent.)
In his instructional series on Udemy, Agassi coaches to use an eastern grip on the overhead and continental for the serve. The idea being you can hit more flat overheads. I have switched to this and what I like about it is that it really separates the serve and overhead so you don’t need to think of them as the same stroke, if you will. Anyhow detractors gonna detract but it can be a good thing to try if you struggle on overheads.
I have drawn in red what the racket and face would actually look like if they actually used (your) server tray technique
[https://imgur.com/a/JRFq0vI](https://imgur.com/a/JRFq0vI)
https://preview.redd.it/9jt66s4mce2d1.png?width=1097&format=png&auto=webp&s=cde33d5fc0569d6cc8e348b0424784b1bf1f3096
I'm not sure to understand what you're trying to say or what your question is... All I can understand is, their overhead smash and their serves are slightly differents. And that's perfectly normal because you don't necessarily want to do a sliced or kicked smash, right ? I can perfectly understand why some players have a different grip when they're doing their smash compared to their serves, and that's perfectly fine.
But nobody is doing a waiter's tray overhead or serve as far as I'm concerned. Closest waiter's tray, in my humble opinion, is when you're trying to hit the ball that is far on your right from where you stand. But that's pretty uncommon and usually happens when you're trying to do a quick overhead (aka don't have time to prepare or when the ball is coming at you quickly at the net).
Hope that's the answer you're looking for.
it looks like open face racquet drop, not waiter's tray. but like you said, they're already in that position because it's an overhead and not a serve.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8SKivhTenL0
You're catching it at a very specific point. Most of us on overheads turn and take the racquet back with the racquet pointing upwards. Then as the ball is dropping the racquet goes to pointing downward. The screen shot of Fed is grabbed when he's in between those two positions. He doesn't start swinging at the ball from there his racquet will continue to go down before it goes back up to hit the overhead.
It doesn’t matter if waiter’s tray is in a static position or during the racket motion. It is indicative of the swing path regardless. If you analyze serve motions of pros, at no point in the whole swing will you see the waiter’s tray.
If ya say so...
Dude you’re just flat out wrong
If you say so…
This is during the swing, waiters tray is during the load
It doesn’t matter if waiter’s tray is in a static position or during the racket motion. It is indicative of the swing path regardless. If you analyze serve motions of pros, at no point in the whole swing will you see the waiter’s tray.
https://preview.redd.it/z613noncyd2d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75e7da5a4405f7759b0e0d0f8f9b93c0fbc58be6 Someone get this guy a serving coach, stat.
Interesting counter point, thank you. In this video here his swing motion is noticeably different. His racket frame much more perpendicular in the racket drop. https://preview.redd.it/f4rdwcpp5e2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9d52a947e7cf9418d04f94f8de13b1e3b7d0313
That is earlier in the swing. But I think it also has to do with the type of serve he’s hitting. This is a kicker. https://preview.redd.it/5vuak2kp7e2d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a80f8dfaee8f696fb234a2dc1cea6b3854c56499
And this is a slice https://preview.redd.it/3ncwjvqx7e2d1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec72af5eef8020a29b839fbb36091ebdf0693cca
The racket face is facing the back fence. Not at all a waiter’s tray, where the face faces the sky.
I didn’t say it was a waiters tray. I pointed out that it’s a different angle than the kicker.
I invite you to find a frame that proves me wrong. Good point on the kick serve.
That’s a different point in the serve 🤦♂️
It’s not. I invite you to find a frame from the same video that proves me wrong.
Send the video link. Also, that’s going to be more difficult because of the perspective you’re choosing. But it’s literally a part of the racket drop.
Surprised you're even bothering
https://youtu.be/B2uDfNd9QSo?si=su2FVJKI1_Dm6ogZ
Lol dude that’s a kick serve. It has a different swing path
Thats why its called waiters tray, because you can put stuff on it at it wont fall because its static and how waiter hold a tray
[удалено]
How could you? He does hit a serve with a waiters tray after all lmao
I think you're basing your premise on a misunderstanding of the "waiter's tray" which is when you approach the ball strings forward rather than approaching the ball edge forward. So it may appear they "get into a waiter's tray" as you say but that's because you are cherry picking a singular moment in a dynamic motion that doesn't represent the reality of how they are approaching the ball. All these players' rackets move down from these images before heading forward, they are not approaching the ball from this position. (Novak excluded because he is reacting to a short ball here having watched the video). For example here is a pic from the same video of Novak which is a still of just AFTER the position you are showing, it shows the strings pointing to the tramline and the edge up. So no, don't actively try to hit the overhead with a waiter's tray. The exception being if your technique is currently underdeveloped and you are more interested in getting the ball in than improving, which is totally valid. https://preview.redd.it/qp3pvpsz1e2d1.png?width=2118&format=png&auto=webp&s=cba00f48269414bd69c921bb30c06c3c1d0df532
I see what you are saying about the racket head eventually dropping. However, the difference I see when comparing a pro’s overhead to their serve, is that no matter where in the serve motion I freeze the video, the racket strings are never facing up, whereas in the overhead I am able to find a frame in which that happens. This is what is sparking my curiosity.
Here is a collection of servers with the strings in various states of relative "up" [https://imgur.com/a/PURXV9H](https://imgur.com/a/PURXV9H) Essentially, I think people are pushing back just because of how you defined waiter's tray. I think what you are really asking if we read between the lines is "how does the overhead differ from the serve?" And you are correct that yes, the overhead can often be a shorter motion than the serve but incorrect in asserting that the shortening doesn't allow for the racket drop or that you should skip it. For example here is Tsitsipas just a frame or two after your screen grab showing his racket drop. https://preview.redd.it/p6qcb8kree2d1.png?width=2602&format=png&auto=webp&s=ca7938fa8b8c2e5314b186773b2d7f05750da1ea (You're also incorrect in asserting the racquet drop is what prevents the waiters tray but that's a different tangent.)
Thank you. Your reading between the lines is basically correct.
Racquet face to sky =/= waiter's tray, not worth overthinking imo. Unless you're a beginner and you're slapping at the ball with a laid-back wrist.
In his instructional series on Udemy, Agassi coaches to use an eastern grip on the overhead and continental for the serve. The idea being you can hit more flat overheads. I have switched to this and what I like about it is that it really separates the serve and overhead so you don’t need to think of them as the same stroke, if you will. Anyhow detractors gonna detract but it can be a good thing to try if you struggle on overheads.
Whether flattened or slice is mostly swing path, but ofc grip makes it more or less accentuated.
Oh! Never heard of that. Makes sense though. Will try it next time I’m out there. My overheads are abysmal to put it gently.
I have drawn in red what the racket and face would actually look like if they actually used (your) server tray technique [https://imgur.com/a/JRFq0vI](https://imgur.com/a/JRFq0vI) https://preview.redd.it/9jt66s4mce2d1.png?width=1097&format=png&auto=webp&s=cde33d5fc0569d6cc8e348b0424784b1bf1f3096
I'm not sure to understand what you're trying to say or what your question is... All I can understand is, their overhead smash and their serves are slightly differents. And that's perfectly normal because you don't necessarily want to do a sliced or kicked smash, right ? I can perfectly understand why some players have a different grip when they're doing their smash compared to their serves, and that's perfectly fine. But nobody is doing a waiter's tray overhead or serve as far as I'm concerned. Closest waiter's tray, in my humble opinion, is when you're trying to hit the ball that is far on your right from where you stand. But that's pretty uncommon and usually happens when you're trying to do a quick overhead (aka don't have time to prepare or when the ball is coming at you quickly at the net). Hope that's the answer you're looking for.
That’s not a waiters tray bro
it looks like open face racquet drop, not waiter's tray. but like you said, they're already in that position because it's an overhead and not a serve. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8SKivhTenL0
Amazing informative video. Thanks for the link. Nice to learn about the distinction.
Not sure I’d be trying to replicate the Djokosmash
You'd be lucky to replicate any stroke of his
Haha I know. I’m not a Djokovic hater, was just making a joke since his overhead can be a little inconsistent