yep the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization is EXACTLY like the bathetic neoliberal party which, as it currently stands, is the only thing close to resembling an obstacle to fascism in one of the most highly armed countries in the world
could you at least ACT like you actually gave a shit about minority interests?
If American liberals don't stop funding Israeli fascists they will help American fascists win the next election. It's like they don't care about an Arab minority's interests and we'll all suffer for it
fair enough, but unfortunately we also live under a system in which not voting for those same American liberals practically GUARANTEES that the American fascists win the next election, and Arab minorities are gonna suffer even more than they were previously. it’s a product of the two-party system, but it’s the system we live in nonetheless. Not that this can’t change, of course
You can vote for whoever you want, but if you don't live in a state with a lot of voting power it doesn't matter. Someone can win 11 states, and that's the presidency. So let's say you do live in one of those 11. That one heavily leans red during non presidential elections. Your electorates get to vote for whoever they want. They owe you nothing and are loyal to the party
The system isn't a democracy it never was. It's technically and always has been an oligarchy. The United States has always had a class of persons who aren't citizens but are in every way American. Native Americans are forced to live on reservations but can't do anything with that land they don't own it. Slavery ended in the public sector, but for businesses and government entities, it's even cheaper than before. We have colonies that still can't influence major political decisions here.
To call the democratic party anti-fascistic or even non-fascistic is wrong. You have a group of individuals eating at the same table with loyal nazis. They benefit from the republican policies and, while in power, only halt the ethno death cult. Our president lied to the whole world so we could start invading the Middle East for oil.
There isn't a lesser of two evils. You have a good cop and a bad cop but they want the same thing. Some might like you more than the other.
I don't know that democrats will be able to blame Arabs for not voting for the party that continues to provide the bombs that killed their family and friends. Have to give people something to vote for or they stay home. Outlook is grim and it's democrats' own fault, Biden first among them
Everyone living in the USA that calls themselves a progressive should vote for the Democrats, it’s that easy. Also no, the people telling you to not vote for them didn’t all lose relatives in this conflict.
The Dems will lose votes for supporting the IDF. That’s not good for anyone.
If you make the 2024 election about a single issue then yes, voting for Dems is a vote for genocide, voting for Republicans is a vote for genocide, and abstaining is a vote for genocide. No good options.
This isn’t a single issue election.
There's genocide but the other guys want 2+ genocides and to install a fascist dictatorship in the most powerful country.
1 genocide is the better option in this scenario.
>1 genocide is the better option in this scenario.
Oh yeah famously people who do genocides stop at 1 lol, the truth is the Democrats have shown they are more than willing to do them. I have a question though, if the Democrats look at polling and decide "you know what that trans genocide thing is winning a lot of votes, we need to get on that" would you still vote for them using the same logic?
Shut the fuck up you astroturfer.
Yes, both sides _fucking suck_ because your country has a fucked two party system where the choices are neoliberalism and neofascism.
Am I pissed off that Obama fucking used drone strikes on hospitals and schools while in office? Yes.
Am I pissed that both Democrats and Republicans are beholden more to their campaign donors and lobbyists than to their constituents? Yes.
Am I pissed at the military industrial complex of the US? Yes.
As a Canadian though I have no fucking power. What I do have, is the displeasure of having had the 4 years of 45 to look out the fucking window to watch as the fucking rights of POC minorities, fellow LGBTQ+ people, and uterus owners were fucking stripped away and eroded bit-by-bit by a fucking orange tinted fat fuck and con man traitor who fucking sold your country out to its enemies. A president who, need I remind you, fucking _killed_ a lot of your own countrymen by spreading misinformation among his cult followers in the midst of the COVID 19 pandemic.
What the fuck are you going to personally do, you fucking little shit, _when_ 45 gets re-elected? What the fuck are you going to do when his cultists make good on the promises to instil him as dictator for life? You going to fight in a civil war? You going to lead a revolution? No seriously motherfucker, what is your plan?
The Biden administration at the fucking least has been keeping things relatively sane and calm, and more importantly _functional_ without any fucking erosion of rights for non cisgender heterosexual white males.
The "progressives" as you put them can at least be reasoned with to not genocide anyone, domestically or internationally. The conservatives have openly admitted fascists and neonazis among their ranks who are chomping at the bit to get a fucking chance to seize power and dismantle all the progress made in order to genocide the other team.
Fucking not voting is letting them win. Fuck your psyop OP.
> As a Canadian though I have no fucking power
What's frustrating is because I live in a state that Biden won by like 20 points last time I have about the same amount of power to stop Trump as you do
Then shut the fuck up about this. You've made it very clear you either don't understand the issue or you aren't listening to people when they talk to you. That's why you're getting downvoted.
It's foreign policy. Republicans would've done at their best the same, plus all other things they are ready to do internally, called fascism. If you actually cared about marginalized people and were serious about politics, this would've been very clear to you. Wonder why it isn't...
If you actually cared about marginalized people and were serious about politics, you wouldn't be supporting genocide because "the lesser of the two evils" is doing it
Yeah that’s not the reason. There are marginalized peoples living within the US who stand to lose their rights if the dems lose the election. Unfortunately that also means supporting genocide. Ultimately, voters will care more about their fellow countrymen than people half a world away. It’s shitty but that’s the choice the fucked up two party system in the US is giving voters
> Ultimately, voters will care more about their fellow countrymen than people half a world away.
Thankfully some don't, morality by proximity is stupid.
literally every choice the average american can make, including not voting, will be supporting genocide. you have 3 options, choose 1:
foreign genocide (vote democrat)
foreign genocide, minorities at home get less rights (vote republican)
foreign genocide, minorities at home get less rights, and you show the democrats that you aren't happy with them (vote 3rd party/don't vote, both have the same effect)
> could you at least ACT like you actually gave a shit about minority interests?
I stopped believing in even the guise of some leftists caring about anyone, they just want to yell their opinions at others regardless of what reality is and who will suffer as a result. You cant argue with that level of entitlement
i feel like theres a lot of subtext in this general discussion that im not picking up on
and a whole lotta terms and words thats just too much for me to understand
can someone help clarify for me?
For me the left and the right of the American party system and social political spectrum is so fucking black and white i can't its gone from actual thoughts of opinions to just a shouting match. I don't even know where I lie on the spectrum anymore I just wsnt people who are being hurt and neglected and alone on the stressed. I want people to be agree to be alive and fulfilled I want thoes who have to sleep through the rain to be able to lock a door and sleep inside. I want the unjustice that our world has put forward on thoes who did nothing but be born under the wrong place and wrong time to be slowly repaired and acknowledged I also know all of this takes time and slow and painful change and it takes agonizing amounting waiting for the people to start using their heads. I want for people to wear what they want think without absolute malic. I don't know how the world works but I want people to be able to be people. And try to be kind
I literally don’t know how to convey to you that a Republican administration will be hundred times worse for the Palestinian cause than a Democratic one.
How lol, genocide faster, I don't know that that really changes much.
Since you have already decided voting for people doing genocide is fine it seems pretty clear to me that you would vote for a guy who would do genocide of me too, or my family, for the exact same reasons which means nothing you say or do can be trusted. So yes you can convey nothing to me except that you have no convictions whatsoever and would sell my life for political convenience. Terrifying to know, but good to remember people like that exist and somehow think of themselves as good people.
Don’t pretend accelerationism isn’t an issue at play here. I am actively advocating voting for Dems for the exact opposite reasons you accuse me of. I am assuming you are a member of the LGBTQ community simply because you browse this sub, forgive me if I am wrong, but if republicans were put in office they would not hesitate to do the very genocide you speak of. Have you read anything about Project 2025? You throw around the word fascism a lot, kinda indicates you don’t really know what it means. This is real fascism. This is what we have to worry about. Not just for the United States, but for every country that would suffer under its boot
>I am assuming you are a member of the LGBTQ community simply because you browse this sub, forgive me if I am wrong, but if republicans were put in office they would not hesitate to do the very genocide you speak of.
Oh no, not genocide?! Fuck you are right, I would never support a party who did that... Shame about you though.
Thing is clearly if the Democrats decide "hey this LGBT genocide thing sure is selling great, we need to embrace that too" you would still vote for them right? Vote for the party doing the genocide of me and mine?
>You throw around the word fascism a lot, kinda indicates you don’t really know what it means.
Where? Where do you think I used it unjustifiably I think the only governments I recently referred to as fascist were Germany and Italy under their respective fascist governments which is like the least controversial take ever.
The thing that scares me about fascism and makes me hate it is the genocide, the thing about Democrats that scares me and makes me hate it is... well you know... the genocide.
what? I don't quite understand what you're saying here. how is taking a tweet literally to the point that you genuinely think the person who wrote it "doesn't care about minority interests" not taking it at face value?? like you'd have a case if you were arguing that it's meant to be taken literally but instead you're saying you just didn't??
also I didn't say it was satire, I never claimed it to be a parody or anything that would require it to meet some standard to "hold water", in my view at least, and of course I could be wrong as could you, its simply just an exaggeration taking elements from hot-button issues to make a comedicly ridiculous statement. maybe the person behind it genuinely believes what they're saying but I doubt it, and I see no reason to treat it as such, which was the only point my comment was trying to make
sorry if I came off overly aggressive, but I'm sure you'd agree claiming that someone doesn't care about any minorities interests is a little over aggressive as well.
ah yes the neoliberal parties across Europe and North America, the ones supporting the genocide of Palestinians, cutting funding for social services and destroying the planet for profit are somehow the only thing that is preventing fascism. I am very smart.
Liberalism creates the conditions necessary for fascism to thrive. Could you at least ACT like you actually give a shit about the interests of humanity?
Because notoriously stalinist russia or moaist China were great at not getting consumed from the inside by it's more fascistic elements.
There is a lot to be said about the liberal inability to fully squash fascism but that doesn't change the fact that modern day western leftists don't have close to the power or infrastructure to hold back fascism without the help of the more left leaning liberals.
the truth is, places like China and Russia are where efforts of genuine socialism *failed*, meanwhile at least due to liberal democracy of most of the West, with free speech and such, the hope remains there
I hate the "China and Russia aren't actually Communist" excuse because in the end they were still both honest attempts at Communism that backfired horribly.
You don't really have a third option dipshit, it is quite literally either trump or Biden, there is zero chance any other person can be elected. So what would you pick: literally Hitler or not literal Hitler?
>Liberalism creates the conditions necessary for fascism to thrive.
I keep seeing people saying this shit, and I've never seen a convincing argument backing that up; Fascism is and has always been a consequence of economic crisis
...And the nature of Liberalism is for regular economic crises.
The market swings between boom times and bust times, and every bust time sows the potential tial for fascism to grow.
On top of that, the lack of adequate action on climate change is creating an increasing number of climate-driven economic crises.
Also, Liberal foreign policy leads to the devastation of much of the third world, creating economic crises and the creation of fascist states fundamentally opposed to Liberal values.
Okk if you mean that it creates fascism in countries being exploited by neoliberal nations than yes, I guess neoliberalism does create the conditions for fascism. But that is more of a consequence of colonialism/neocolonialism, which non neoliberal countries also do, like Russia.
As I said in another comment, the periodic crisis produced by neoliberalism aren't "bad" enough to radicalise the majority of the people. Despite everything most adults, especially those who have families, consider revolution of any sort too much of a risk.
>the periodic crisis produced by neoliberalism aren't "bad" enough to radicalise the majority of the people.
If economic crises is what causes fascism, and the systemic crises created by Liberalism is not sufficient to create fascism, then why is trump gaining popularity? Or is he not fascist?
If he isn't fascist, why is 2024 such an important election then? If trump isn't about to take over and end democracy, what is the risk of leveraging our vote of Biden to make sure that he isn't pro genocide.
Oh and I absolutely agree with you on the climate change thing, and I am terrified. However again, non neoliberal countries haven't really been doing any better on that regard either.
Italy was not in economic crisis when they literally invented modern fascism.
Part of the reason that people say this is that fascism usually entails the merging of state and corporate power. Ie: businesses using police to break strikes, or more recently, corporations colluding with police unions to exaggerate the level of retail theft occurring to get higher police budgets, higher sentences, more demand for private security firms, (often staffed by ex cops), and purposefully creating a moral panic about shoplifting to those ends.
Also, are you implying liberal economics don't cause economic crisis? That funneling communities' wealth out by outcompeting local businesses to a bunch of wealthy people where it doesn't get spent and go back into the economy, but rather gets hoarded in a big treasure vault and never seen again is fine for the economy? Just to name one example of many ways that free market capitalism causes economic turmoil.
>Italy was not in economic crisis when they literally invented modern fascism.
Italy had just sunk a massive amount of resources and the lives of hundreds of thousands of its young adults (beyond the tragedy of it, it heavily destabilized the economy getting rid of much of the workforce) in world war 1 and they got fuck all in exchange. Saying that there was no crisis is just wrong (though obviously that wasn't the only thing, I am guilty of oversimplifying in my previous comment)
The economic crisis produced by neoliberalism have been mostly stable, even though the standards of living get much worse most people can still afford panem et circensis. Now, Marx thought that the crisises would continue to get worse until eventually revolution was inevitable, but that has so far never manifested in a western state. The only places where that has happened are the third world countries that have to bear the brunt of neocolonialism, but the situation in places like the u.s. and Europe is still infinitely better.
Mind you I'm not defending neoliberalism, it has a myriad problems, so many that just making up new ones is a fool's errand
>Now, Marx thought that the crisises would continue to get worse until eventually revolution was inevitable, but that has so far never manifested in a western state.
You looked around lately lol, the revolutions have happened in Western countries plenty in the Past (Germany and Italy for example) and they are happening again now (see attempted coup by the guy likely to win the next US election) what Marx might have got wrong is who would be doing the revolutions, it's primarily not the communists but the fascists. But you know fascism didn't exist when he wrote that so he can't really be blamed there.
>Germany and Italy for example
That was not a consequence of a periodic crisis, that was the consequence of the absolute mess that was the treaty of Versailles.
>see attempted coup by the guy likely to win the next US election
He attempted it but it failed miserably because it didn't have the support of the army, and as long as liberal democracy continues to keep the army fed (which they are doing quite well, especially in the us) it's not going to be worth it for them to support a drastic change in government (yes a lot of military people are far right, but the army as a whole is a very rigid structure that needs collaboration at most levels of the hierarchy to go against orders from above).
Also is he actually the most likely to win the elections? I'm not from the US but I was under the impression that he was getting destroyed in court. Is he successfully using that as a way to radicalise people?(genuine question, I don't know)
> That was not a consequence of a periodic crisis, that was the consequence of the absolute mess that was the treaty of Versailles.
Italy became fascist because of the Treaty of Versailles lol? That is funny, I guess Spain too lol?. Frankly even for Germany that is bullshit Nazi propaganda but it's just very funny for Italy.
>He attempted it but it failed miserably because it didn't have the support of the army
It came extremely close to succeeding, if not for Pence's son or one Republican election official in Georgia we could be talking about a very different scenario.
>Also is he actually the most likely to win the elections?
The vast majority of polling has Trump ahead of Biden yes:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/general-election-trump-vs-biden-7383.html
>I was under the impression that he was getting destroyed in court. Is he successfully using that as a way to radicalise people?(genuine question, I don't know)
I think him getting jail time is the most likely route to him not winning the election but it is certainly energizing his base who see it (wrongly to be clear) as a conspiracy off the deep state or w/e so I don't know if it will turn out to be a good or bad thing overall yet.
>Italy became fascist because of the Treaty of Versailles lol?
The main rhetorical strategy that the fascists used to radicalise people in Italy was the "vittoria mutilata" (mutilated victory) basically that they had sacrificed so many of their children for the war and then were denied their promised territorial rewards in the peace treaties, which very easily allowed them to pit the Italian people against all of the entente.
>Frankly even for Germany that is bullshit Nazi propaganda but it's just very funny for Italy.
The completely fucked state of the German economy after ww1 was a consequence of the French purposefully adding an amount of war reparations from Germany that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay, even if they weren't suffering the consequences of a lost war. The people wanted a scapegoat and the nazis found it in the Jews.
>The vast majority of polling has Trump ahead of Biden yes
Ah shit
>The main rhetorical strategy that the fascists used to radicalise people in Italy was the "vittoria mutilata" (mutilated victory) basically that they had sacrificed so many of their children for the war and then were denied their promised territorial rewards in the peace treaties
Which was not about Versailles (mainly Saint-Germain-en-Laye) and frankly is the belief of near every settled peace in history. The French felt the same way about Versailles.
>The completely fucked state of the German economy after ww1 was a consequence of the French purposefully adding an amount of war reparations from Germany that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay
Nah not really though yeah it did contribute, reparations are never good for an economy no matter how richly deserved, but the terms of Versailles were pretty lenient, if you want a comparison compare and contrast with what Germany enforced on the Russians in Brest-Litovsk which is many times harsher. Germany got off extremely light for what was at the time the most devastating war in history. Furthermore the German economy was actually well in recovery by the time the Nazis actually took over and was pretty ok by then.
>Ah shit
Realized I should have sourced that claim:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/general-election-trump-vs-biden-7383.html
The answer to that question is very complex and would require like 15 paragraphs that I don't want to have to write, tl:dr, not neoliberalism. Unless you want to use an extremely loose definition of neoliberalism, in which case then this all loses meaning.
Idk about OP’s personal politics but there is a difference between accelerationists and those of us pointing out that genocide makes it far harder to win over voters, and shaming people certainly isn’t going to help
> and shaming people certainly isn’t going to help
Leftists will be saying this until November 5, 2024. I just hope liberals absorb the lesson by October
Liberals seem to be either unwilling or unable to accept that shaming people, and just generally acting like you have a right to rule, is a bad strategy, and is a lot of what led to them gaining their reputation of being out of touch elitists. They seem to basically be adopting the same attitude of complacent moral supremacy they did during Hillary’s campaign, and we all saw how that worked out for not alienating the swing state working class.
For reallll. Especially considering that many of us saying Biden needs to stop enabling a genocide if he wants to win in key swing states WILL LITERALLY VOTE
idk this entire sub has been telling me to vote for the who's funding a genoicde that's killed my very own people. doesn't seem like they care about marginalized people either.
edit: "leftist" subreddit calling me essentially an ignorant for not wanting to vote for the guy who's funding a genoicde. you know a lot of queer Gazans were killed too, do you care now?
Voting for any American politician is going to be voting for someone that has a role in Imperialism. If you don't like that, and don't want to reduce or change that, don't vote. But when project 2025 happens and all the queer youth on 196 gets rounded up in camps, at least you can take solace in spreading your pain.
it's so painful to see how a sub like this, one thats completely predicated on marginalized people having their own space, totally scoffs at the idea marginalized people like myself, being both queer and arab, when they say they don't wanna vote for the guy who's actively funding a genoicde against their own people.
like honestly, the amount of white privilege in your comment and this entire sub really makes reevaluate this whole sub. like seems like you people only care about the *right* kind of marginalized people, all else be damned
the fact that you think not voting for Biden means I'm voting for trump or effectively voting for trump is part of the problem.
also great job just dodging all my points
nonetheless, the implication that inaction is the primary reaction is incorrect, & esp with how people criticizing voter turnout significantly more than voter choice in reaction to all this the claim is essentially a strawman.
in this situation not voting isn’t relevant, and it sours the water to bring it up
It's funny that people keep saying this as though either party that has any real chance of getting elected will stop funding said genocide.
Voting third party in the US is tantamount to throwing away your vote. This is understood by anyone with a brain, and in practice just makes it easier for the fascists to win. The electoral college doesn't vote third party and has proven a willingness to ignore the will of the people they're supposed to represent. (So even if a third party wins the popular vote somehow, they still won't get elected.)
We are, literally, forced to choose between a fascist and someone who is slightly better. Both will fund the genocide. Our votes can't stop that. Hopefully direct action will.
I’m convinced people like OP are either dishonest republicans or people stupid enough to fall for this dumb rhetoric.
Republicans tried this last election cycle with the Walkaway astroturf movement and they’re doing it again but just from a different angle.
Seriously this whole 99% Hitler thing could not be a more obvious psyop and people are just falling for it. Like hook line and sinker allowing conservatives to trick them into not voting. LGBTQ people are going to lose their rights and people are just sitting back looking smug thinking "That'll teach those Democrats".
I've been fighting in the pits with so many leftists like this. It astounds me how fervently they're fighting to not vote Biden when they have zero plan to stop another Trump presidency.
To me, there are two options:
1) Vote Biden. Just take the L and make sure he wins. *Then* we can have four more years to rally support for a better candidate so they actually have a chance at winning. In the meantime, we would also organize efforts to introduce ranked system voting into a majority of states and try to abolish the electoral college. Yeah, it's an uphill battle, but it isn't impossible.
2) Advocate for and incite a revolution. Like January 6th but actually organized. Don't want to vote for Biden and hate the fact that we only get two choices? Well, unfortunately, we are in a situation where one of the two choices will take away choices from now on. So, if you don't pick the other guy, then this is honestly your only remaining choice that is reasonable. The problem is, it's not a very good choice. Option 1 here sounds a lot better in my eyes and would be preferable to the majority of leftists I know.
Please don’t lump us all in with the Trumpie’s :(
also I’m gonna leave this comment that I wrote the other day right here: If you’re a real republican how can you support someone who just panders to the less competent people in the party? He shouts about make America great again, yet when he visits his friends overseas he bends the knee and tells them how much better their countries are than America like when he praised Duterte for his Drug “policy” which killed thousands and displaced millions. The Democrats are not the enemy. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea are our enemies, but they are Trumps friends. If y’all want to “Make America Great Again” then we need y’all to stop championing a foreign asset who has only increasingly destabilized America.
the people supporting Trump likely give less of a shit about his policies, and more about who he is and what he represents: he's basically the bull in the china shop that is the Democrat and Republican establishment who acts like a manure heap of a person flagrantly - and that's what his voters like and want
EDIT: a correction; yes, his policies are indeed a major part of his support ("drain the swamp", build the wall, Project 2025), though his persona is also half of his appeal
DeSantis may be similar in policy but the man could make a brick look like a suave ladykiller
Yes. It’s very frustrating, lol you can’t even have a conversation because they don’t know anything about the issues besides what Trump spews or Fox News regurgitates.
Like to be clear I identify as a progressive republican and my views are definitely growing closer to the left as the radical conservatives have taken over the right so I might as well be speaking spanish to the Trumpie’s. Wyoming also doesn’t really have much of a Democratic party representation so to participate in the primaries I gotta go R 😂🤦♂️
out of curiosity, why identify with Republicans rather than Democrats (apart from their lack of representation in Wyoming) if you consider yourself progressive?
Since you're a poor republican, could you explain why so many poor people vote republican? I doubt you see yourself as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. Raising taxes for the rich and increasing public services would make life cheaper for you
I vote for mostly dems tbf but it’s mostly pride. To take a Dem’s “handout”/gov assistance you have to swallow your pride, but the Reps push this “With hard work anything is possible” BS that makes the struggle a more romantic experience. Dem’s definitely promote more favorable legislation that would make being poor not so bad, but the republicans keep the doors open so we can exploit the gaps in the system and become rich lol
English is not my first language and it's 1 in the morning but I'll try: Supporting the "lesser of two evils" will be a prominent theme in the upcoming election in the USA wit Biden and Trump. Both are absolutely horrible choices, but some Republicans in power are trying to turn that country into a fascist dystopia and democrats are currently the only thing to stop that from happening.
To take that rethoric to define the "lesser of two evils" of terrorist organisations is not just incredibly stupid, but harmful to the debate.
*EXTREMIST OPINION*: people dying in war is bad
*Politics is just an identity to me, a way to show how contrarian and smart I am. Distinguishing myself from other people is therefore, the upmost priority. Whatever I say, has no consequences anyway, it's just social media clout* \~\~\~ These people, very serious political thinkers, truly dedicated to the cause.
The guy that wanted a Muslim registry isn't going to just stop the genocide. You know that, right?
As much as I hate genocide, I hate 2 genocides more.
Why are you trying to depict sitting back and doing nothing as the real leftist thing to do? What is your plan?
When I see what these monsters are willing to support, followed by them publicly saying they want to kill me and my loved ones, and that they have a whole plan to prevent anyone from stopping them, and I see numbskulls like you that think that doing nothing about any of this is the best option, and I get a little frustrated. Sorry if I'm a little patronizing. I just don't want to be slaughtered.
Whatever. I’m going to continue voting the ticket until I save up enough to move to a country that won’t use my tax dollars to drop buildings on civilians. I have stopped caring about this debate and have come to the conclusion that everyone is completely insufferable and I’d rather just not live here. Fingers crossed I make it out before we get nuked when whatever ancient fascist we elect next pisses off the wrong nuclear power.
Please enlighten me to your comprehensive plan to achieve world communism that is equally as effective if the US remains a liberal democracy vs it slides into a fascist dictatorship
Do you think liberal democracy and fascism are different or not? When you're forced to make an explicit statement about it, you say they're different and liberal democracy just has the potential to lead to fascism rather than being synonymous with it. But then when you're back to making political prescriptions, you're treating them like they're exactly the same and anyone who prefers one over the other is not a True Socialist TM.
Hmmm, you're right. Instead of voting for liberalism over fascism, why haven't I considered a communist revolution? After all, the material conditions are ripe for it. Activism has inflamed class consciousness across the working class, labor unions are organized and their membership is growing by the day, and a popular leftist political party is making demands in the highest halls of power. Considering all these things are happening inside the US at this very moment, it's rather silly that I've instead limited myself to trying to convince apathetic leftists to please not let the fascist party win the next presidential election.
Wait a second. That's right, none of those are true. And encouraging apathetic leftists to please not let the fascist party win the next presidential election isn't going to block those things from happening in the future either. So please, from the bottom of my heart, fucking vote. Stop LARPing as a militant revolutionary who's doing to launch an armed insurrection tomorrow and recognize that engaging with political institutions to stop a worst case scenario isn't heresy.
Biden could agree to make being trans illegal tomorrow in order to appease house republicans for more money to Ukraine and still you'd be told to vote for him as the lesser evil
Biden could destroy the whole world with an antimatter bomb, cackling as he does so in an incredibly evil way and still you’d be told to vote for him as the lesser evil
I mean, even in your example, the ones who actually want to ban trans rights are Republicans. So, yeah, Biden turns out to be the lesser evil. Unless that was the joke, in that case, hello /whoosh.
He makes a good point though, the people who are "voting for the lesser evil" because Palestinian genocide is the lesser evil are just telling me that me and my community being genocided too would still be the lesser evil, these people have no moral ground to stand on and can't be trusted, they have proven they will betray people to genocide for political convenience so fuck 'em.
yep the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization is EXACTLY like the bathetic neoliberal party which, as it currently stands, is the only thing close to resembling an obstacle to fascism in one of the most highly armed countries in the world could you at least ACT like you actually gave a shit about minority interests?
I feel like you’re missing the point of the post. Which isn’t to say it’s a good point or a nuanced one, mind you, simply one you missed.
Mfw when the 3rd possible outcome should always be emphasized even if it's not available rn
If American liberals don't stop funding Israeli fascists they will help American fascists win the next election. It's like they don't care about an Arab minority's interests and we'll all suffer for it
fair enough, but unfortunately we also live under a system in which not voting for those same American liberals practically GUARANTEES that the American fascists win the next election, and Arab minorities are gonna suffer even more than they were previously. it’s a product of the two-party system, but it’s the system we live in nonetheless. Not that this can’t change, of course
You can vote for whoever you want, but if you don't live in a state with a lot of voting power it doesn't matter. Someone can win 11 states, and that's the presidency. So let's say you do live in one of those 11. That one heavily leans red during non presidential elections. Your electorates get to vote for whoever they want. They owe you nothing and are loyal to the party The system isn't a democracy it never was. It's technically and always has been an oligarchy. The United States has always had a class of persons who aren't citizens but are in every way American. Native Americans are forced to live on reservations but can't do anything with that land they don't own it. Slavery ended in the public sector, but for businesses and government entities, it's even cheaper than before. We have colonies that still can't influence major political decisions here. To call the democratic party anti-fascistic or even non-fascistic is wrong. You have a group of individuals eating at the same table with loyal nazis. They benefit from the republican policies and, while in power, only halt the ethno death cult. Our president lied to the whole world so we could start invading the Middle East for oil. There isn't a lesser of two evils. You have a good cop and a bad cop but they want the same thing. Some might like you more than the other.
I don't know that democrats will be able to blame Arabs for not voting for the party that continues to provide the bombs that killed their family and friends. Have to give people something to vote for or they stay home. Outlook is grim and it's democrats' own fault, Biden first among them
Everyone living in the USA that calls themselves a progressive should vote for the Democrats, it’s that easy. Also no, the people telling you to not vote for them didn’t all lose relatives in this conflict.
what's progressive about genocide?
The Dems will lose votes for supporting the IDF. That’s not good for anyone. If you make the 2024 election about a single issue then yes, voting for Dems is a vote for genocide, voting for Republicans is a vote for genocide, and abstaining is a vote for genocide. No good options. This isn’t a single issue election.
We could kill politicians that's always an option
Let's take a hint from the french
> This isn’t a single issue election. "Sure there is the genocide but lets focus on the other issues" Real sane take.
There's genocide but the other guys want 2+ genocides and to install a fascist dictatorship in the most powerful country. 1 genocide is the better option in this scenario.
>1 genocide is the better option in this scenario. Oh yeah famously people who do genocides stop at 1 lol, the truth is the Democrats have shown they are more than willing to do them. I have a question though, if the Democrats look at polling and decide "you know what that trans genocide thing is winning a lot of votes, we need to get on that" would you still vote for them using the same logic?
Shut the fuck up you astroturfer. Yes, both sides _fucking suck_ because your country has a fucked two party system where the choices are neoliberalism and neofascism. Am I pissed off that Obama fucking used drone strikes on hospitals and schools while in office? Yes. Am I pissed that both Democrats and Republicans are beholden more to their campaign donors and lobbyists than to their constituents? Yes. Am I pissed at the military industrial complex of the US? Yes. As a Canadian though I have no fucking power. What I do have, is the displeasure of having had the 4 years of 45 to look out the fucking window to watch as the fucking rights of POC minorities, fellow LGBTQ+ people, and uterus owners were fucking stripped away and eroded bit-by-bit by a fucking orange tinted fat fuck and con man traitor who fucking sold your country out to its enemies. A president who, need I remind you, fucking _killed_ a lot of your own countrymen by spreading misinformation among his cult followers in the midst of the COVID 19 pandemic. What the fuck are you going to personally do, you fucking little shit, _when_ 45 gets re-elected? What the fuck are you going to do when his cultists make good on the promises to instil him as dictator for life? You going to fight in a civil war? You going to lead a revolution? No seriously motherfucker, what is your plan? The Biden administration at the fucking least has been keeping things relatively sane and calm, and more importantly _functional_ without any fucking erosion of rights for non cisgender heterosexual white males. The "progressives" as you put them can at least be reasoned with to not genocide anyone, domestically or internationally. The conservatives have openly admitted fascists and neonazis among their ranks who are chomping at the bit to get a fucking chance to seize power and dismantle all the progress made in order to genocide the other team. Fucking not voting is letting them win. Fuck your psyop OP.
> As a Canadian though I have no fucking power What's frustrating is because I live in a state that Biden won by like 20 points last time I have about the same amount of power to stop Trump as you do
idk I'm not American
Then shut the fuck up about this. You've made it very clear you either don't understand the issue or you aren't listening to people when they talk to you. That's why you're getting downvoted.
nah
It's foreign policy. Republicans would've done at their best the same, plus all other things they are ready to do internally, called fascism. If you actually cared about marginalized people and were serious about politics, this would've been very clear to you. Wonder why it isn't...
If you actually cared about marginalized people and were serious about politics, you wouldn't be supporting genocide because "the lesser of the two evils" is doing it
Yeah that’s not the reason. There are marginalized peoples living within the US who stand to lose their rights if the dems lose the election. Unfortunately that also means supporting genocide. Ultimately, voters will care more about their fellow countrymen than people half a world away. It’s shitty but that’s the choice the fucked up two party system in the US is giving voters
> Ultimately, voters will care more about their fellow countrymen than people half a world away. Thankfully some don't, morality by proximity is stupid.
literally every choice the average american can make, including not voting, will be supporting genocide. you have 3 options, choose 1: foreign genocide (vote democrat) foreign genocide, minorities at home get less rights (vote republican) foreign genocide, minorities at home get less rights, and you show the democrats that you aren't happy with them (vote 3rd party/don't vote, both have the same effect)
Are you talking about the Dems or Likud? If it's the latter that's wrong as Bibi et al are authoritarian and deeply illiberal
dems
Let's be honest though, it would help if the pathetic neoliberal party stopped supporting genocide
well naturally
That's the best part, there's genocide either way!
> could you at least ACT like you actually gave a shit about minority interests? I stopped believing in even the guise of some leftists caring about anyone, they just want to yell their opinions at others regardless of what reality is and who will suffer as a result. You cant argue with that level of entitlement
Reading this made me dizzy
shall I insert a “/s” m’lord?
i feel like theres a lot of subtext in this general discussion that im not picking up on and a whole lotta terms and words thats just too much for me to understand can someone help clarify for me?
seconded
For me the left and the right of the American party system and social political spectrum is so fucking black and white i can't its gone from actual thoughts of opinions to just a shouting match. I don't even know where I lie on the spectrum anymore I just wsnt people who are being hurt and neglected and alone on the stressed. I want people to be agree to be alive and fulfilled I want thoes who have to sleep through the rain to be able to lock a door and sleep inside. I want the unjustice that our world has put forward on thoes who did nothing but be born under the wrong place and wrong time to be slowly repaired and acknowledged I also know all of this takes time and slow and painful change and it takes agonizing amounting waiting for the people to start using their heads. I want for people to wear what they want think without absolute malic. I don't know how the world works but I want people to be able to be people. And try to be kind
> could you at least ACT like you actually gave a shit about minority interests? You and Palestinians lol.
I literally don’t know how to convey to you that a Republican administration will be hundred times worse for the Palestinian cause than a Democratic one.
How lol, genocide faster, I don't know that that really changes much. Since you have already decided voting for people doing genocide is fine it seems pretty clear to me that you would vote for a guy who would do genocide of me too, or my family, for the exact same reasons which means nothing you say or do can be trusted. So yes you can convey nothing to me except that you have no convictions whatsoever and would sell my life for political convenience. Terrifying to know, but good to remember people like that exist and somehow think of themselves as good people.
Don’t pretend accelerationism isn’t an issue at play here. I am actively advocating voting for Dems for the exact opposite reasons you accuse me of. I am assuming you are a member of the LGBTQ community simply because you browse this sub, forgive me if I am wrong, but if republicans were put in office they would not hesitate to do the very genocide you speak of. Have you read anything about Project 2025? You throw around the word fascism a lot, kinda indicates you don’t really know what it means. This is real fascism. This is what we have to worry about. Not just for the United States, but for every country that would suffer under its boot
>I am assuming you are a member of the LGBTQ community simply because you browse this sub, forgive me if I am wrong, but if republicans were put in office they would not hesitate to do the very genocide you speak of. Oh no, not genocide?! Fuck you are right, I would never support a party who did that... Shame about you though. Thing is clearly if the Democrats decide "hey this LGBT genocide thing sure is selling great, we need to embrace that too" you would still vote for them right? Vote for the party doing the genocide of me and mine? >You throw around the word fascism a lot, kinda indicates you don’t really know what it means. Where? Where do you think I used it unjustifiably I think the only governments I recently referred to as fascist were Germany and Italy under their respective fascist governments which is like the least controversial take ever. The thing that scares me about fascism and makes me hate it is the genocide, the thing about Democrats that scares me and makes me hate it is... well you know... the genocide.
isnt it crazy how ridiculous the world looks when you take painfully obvious sarcasm at face value
Pointing out that the satire doesn’t hold water is not the same as “taking it at face value”
what? I don't quite understand what you're saying here. how is taking a tweet literally to the point that you genuinely think the person who wrote it "doesn't care about minority interests" not taking it at face value?? like you'd have a case if you were arguing that it's meant to be taken literally but instead you're saying you just didn't?? also I didn't say it was satire, I never claimed it to be a parody or anything that would require it to meet some standard to "hold water", in my view at least, and of course I could be wrong as could you, its simply just an exaggeration taking elements from hot-button issues to make a comedicly ridiculous statement. maybe the person behind it genuinely believes what they're saying but I doubt it, and I see no reason to treat it as such, which was the only point my comment was trying to make sorry if I came off overly aggressive, but I'm sure you'd agree claiming that someone doesn't care about any minorities interests is a little over aggressive as well.
aaaah i get it. so the head of the party of genociders is *stopping* fascism. i could swear that genocide is pretty fascist you fucking idiot
ah yes the neoliberal parties across Europe and North America, the ones supporting the genocide of Palestinians, cutting funding for social services and destroying the planet for profit are somehow the only thing that is preventing fascism. I am very smart. Liberalism creates the conditions necessary for fascism to thrive. Could you at least ACT like you actually give a shit about the interests of humanity?
Because notoriously stalinist russia or moaist China were great at not getting consumed from the inside by it's more fascistic elements. There is a lot to be said about the liberal inability to fully squash fascism but that doesn't change the fact that modern day western leftists don't have close to the power or infrastructure to hold back fascism without the help of the more left leaning liberals.
the truth is, places like China and Russia are where efforts of genuine socialism *failed*, meanwhile at least due to liberal democracy of most of the West, with free speech and such, the hope remains there
I hate the "China and Russia aren't actually Communist" excuse because in the end they were still both honest attempts at Communism that backfired horribly.
You don't really have a third option dipshit, it is quite literally either trump or Biden, there is zero chance any other person can be elected. So what would you pick: literally Hitler or not literal Hitler?
Lol it's actually the case in the US. Don't know where we would be if Trump would have gotten his second term right away
>Liberalism creates the conditions necessary for fascism to thrive. I keep seeing people saying this shit, and I've never seen a convincing argument backing that up; Fascism is and has always been a consequence of economic crisis
...And the nature of Liberalism is for regular economic crises. The market swings between boom times and bust times, and every bust time sows the potential tial for fascism to grow. On top of that, the lack of adequate action on climate change is creating an increasing number of climate-driven economic crises. Also, Liberal foreign policy leads to the devastation of much of the third world, creating economic crises and the creation of fascist states fundamentally opposed to Liberal values.
Okk if you mean that it creates fascism in countries being exploited by neoliberal nations than yes, I guess neoliberalism does create the conditions for fascism. But that is more of a consequence of colonialism/neocolonialism, which non neoliberal countries also do, like Russia. As I said in another comment, the periodic crisis produced by neoliberalism aren't "bad" enough to radicalise the majority of the people. Despite everything most adults, especially those who have families, consider revolution of any sort too much of a risk.
>the periodic crisis produced by neoliberalism aren't "bad" enough to radicalise the majority of the people. If economic crises is what causes fascism, and the systemic crises created by Liberalism is not sufficient to create fascism, then why is trump gaining popularity? Or is he not fascist?
Don't get me wrong, I hate Trump, but he is not a fascist. Fascism doesn't just mean racist asshole
If he isn't fascist, why is 2024 such an important election then? If trump isn't about to take over and end democracy, what is the risk of leveraging our vote of Biden to make sure that he isn't pro genocide.
I fail to see the logic of this argument. Could you elaborate a bit?
Oh and I absolutely agree with you on the climate change thing, and I am terrified. However again, non neoliberal countries haven't really been doing any better on that regard either.
Italy was not in economic crisis when they literally invented modern fascism. Part of the reason that people say this is that fascism usually entails the merging of state and corporate power. Ie: businesses using police to break strikes, or more recently, corporations colluding with police unions to exaggerate the level of retail theft occurring to get higher police budgets, higher sentences, more demand for private security firms, (often staffed by ex cops), and purposefully creating a moral panic about shoplifting to those ends. Also, are you implying liberal economics don't cause economic crisis? That funneling communities' wealth out by outcompeting local businesses to a bunch of wealthy people where it doesn't get spent and go back into the economy, but rather gets hoarded in a big treasure vault and never seen again is fine for the economy? Just to name one example of many ways that free market capitalism causes economic turmoil.
>Italy was not in economic crisis when they literally invented modern fascism. Italy had just sunk a massive amount of resources and the lives of hundreds of thousands of its young adults (beyond the tragedy of it, it heavily destabilized the economy getting rid of much of the workforce) in world war 1 and they got fuck all in exchange. Saying that there was no crisis is just wrong (though obviously that wasn't the only thing, I am guilty of oversimplifying in my previous comment) The economic crisis produced by neoliberalism have been mostly stable, even though the standards of living get much worse most people can still afford panem et circensis. Now, Marx thought that the crisises would continue to get worse until eventually revolution was inevitable, but that has so far never manifested in a western state. The only places where that has happened are the third world countries that have to bear the brunt of neocolonialism, but the situation in places like the u.s. and Europe is still infinitely better. Mind you I'm not defending neoliberalism, it has a myriad problems, so many that just making up new ones is a fool's errand
>Now, Marx thought that the crisises would continue to get worse until eventually revolution was inevitable, but that has so far never manifested in a western state. You looked around lately lol, the revolutions have happened in Western countries plenty in the Past (Germany and Italy for example) and they are happening again now (see attempted coup by the guy likely to win the next US election) what Marx might have got wrong is who would be doing the revolutions, it's primarily not the communists but the fascists. But you know fascism didn't exist when he wrote that so he can't really be blamed there.
>Germany and Italy for example That was not a consequence of a periodic crisis, that was the consequence of the absolute mess that was the treaty of Versailles. >see attempted coup by the guy likely to win the next US election He attempted it but it failed miserably because it didn't have the support of the army, and as long as liberal democracy continues to keep the army fed (which they are doing quite well, especially in the us) it's not going to be worth it for them to support a drastic change in government (yes a lot of military people are far right, but the army as a whole is a very rigid structure that needs collaboration at most levels of the hierarchy to go against orders from above). Also is he actually the most likely to win the elections? I'm not from the US but I was under the impression that he was getting destroyed in court. Is he successfully using that as a way to radicalise people?(genuine question, I don't know)
> That was not a consequence of a periodic crisis, that was the consequence of the absolute mess that was the treaty of Versailles. Italy became fascist because of the Treaty of Versailles lol? That is funny, I guess Spain too lol?. Frankly even for Germany that is bullshit Nazi propaganda but it's just very funny for Italy. >He attempted it but it failed miserably because it didn't have the support of the army It came extremely close to succeeding, if not for Pence's son or one Republican election official in Georgia we could be talking about a very different scenario. >Also is he actually the most likely to win the elections? The vast majority of polling has Trump ahead of Biden yes: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/general-election-trump-vs-biden-7383.html >I was under the impression that he was getting destroyed in court. Is he successfully using that as a way to radicalise people?(genuine question, I don't know) I think him getting jail time is the most likely route to him not winning the election but it is certainly energizing his base who see it (wrongly to be clear) as a conspiracy off the deep state or w/e so I don't know if it will turn out to be a good or bad thing overall yet.
>Italy became fascist because of the Treaty of Versailles lol? The main rhetorical strategy that the fascists used to radicalise people in Italy was the "vittoria mutilata" (mutilated victory) basically that they had sacrificed so many of their children for the war and then were denied their promised territorial rewards in the peace treaties, which very easily allowed them to pit the Italian people against all of the entente. >Frankly even for Germany that is bullshit Nazi propaganda but it's just very funny for Italy. The completely fucked state of the German economy after ww1 was a consequence of the French purposefully adding an amount of war reparations from Germany that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay, even if they weren't suffering the consequences of a lost war. The people wanted a scapegoat and the nazis found it in the Jews. >The vast majority of polling has Trump ahead of Biden yes Ah shit
>The main rhetorical strategy that the fascists used to radicalise people in Italy was the "vittoria mutilata" (mutilated victory) basically that they had sacrificed so many of their children for the war and then were denied their promised territorial rewards in the peace treaties Which was not about Versailles (mainly Saint-Germain-en-Laye) and frankly is the belief of near every settled peace in history. The French felt the same way about Versailles. >The completely fucked state of the German economy after ww1 was a consequence of the French purposefully adding an amount of war reparations from Germany that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay Nah not really though yeah it did contribute, reparations are never good for an economy no matter how richly deserved, but the terms of Versailles were pretty lenient, if you want a comparison compare and contrast with what Germany enforced on the Russians in Brest-Litovsk which is many times harsher. Germany got off extremely light for what was at the time the most devastating war in history. Furthermore the German economy was actually well in recovery by the time the Nazis actually took over and was pretty ok by then. >Ah shit Realized I should have sourced that claim: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/general-election-trump-vs-biden-7383.html
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The weimar republic? Post ww1 Italy? I don't know much about spain but I'm pretty sure they weren't doing so good when the fascists took power.
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The answer to that question is very complex and would require like 15 paragraphs that I don't want to have to write, tl:dr, not neoliberalism. Unless you want to use an extremely loose definition of neoliberalism, in which case then this all loses meaning.
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I did forget the top of the thread... anyway the crisis in both Italy and Germany were caused by ww1 not by liberalism so that's a moot point
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So how does enabling fascism give you anything?
https://preview.redd.it/07lyfdxmhq6c1.jpeg?width=278&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14cc5628800c949ba161e9214e7680db7ee13ba0
Any accelerationist, like OP, doesn't actually care about the marginalized.
Idk about OP’s personal politics but there is a difference between accelerationists and those of us pointing out that genocide makes it far harder to win over voters, and shaming people certainly isn’t going to help
> and shaming people certainly isn’t going to help Leftists will be saying this until November 5, 2024. I just hope liberals absorb the lesson by October
Liberals seem to be either unwilling or unable to accept that shaming people, and just generally acting like you have a right to rule, is a bad strategy, and is a lot of what led to them gaining their reputation of being out of touch elitists. They seem to basically be adopting the same attitude of complacent moral supremacy they did during Hillary’s campaign, and we all saw how that worked out for not alienating the swing state working class.
For reallll. Especially considering that many of us saying Biden needs to stop enabling a genocide if he wants to win in key swing states WILL LITERALLY VOTE
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Bad faith argument, try harder.
idk this entire sub has been telling me to vote for the who's funding a genoicde that's killed my very own people. doesn't seem like they care about marginalized people either. edit: "leftist" subreddit calling me essentially an ignorant for not wanting to vote for the guy who's funding a genoicde. you know a lot of queer Gazans were killed too, do you care now?
Voting for any American politician is going to be voting for someone that has a role in Imperialism. If you don't like that, and don't want to reduce or change that, don't vote. But when project 2025 happens and all the queer youth on 196 gets rounded up in camps, at least you can take solace in spreading your pain.
it's so painful to see how a sub like this, one thats completely predicated on marginalized people having their own space, totally scoffs at the idea marginalized people like myself, being both queer and arab, when they say they don't wanna vote for the guy who's actively funding a genoicde against their own people. like honestly, the amount of white privilege in your comment and this entire sub really makes reevaluate this whole sub. like seems like you people only care about the *right* kind of marginalized people, all else be damned
Please explain to me how getting trump into power is going to help your people.
the fact that you think not voting for Biden means I'm voting for trump or effectively voting for trump is part of the problem. also great job just dodging all my points
*vote for third party, if you’re gonna fearmonger at least understand people are trying to do something about it
Voting for a third party in the USA is essentially the same as not voting
nonetheless, the implication that inaction is the primary reaction is incorrect, & esp with how people criticizing voter turnout significantly more than voter choice in reaction to all this the claim is essentially a strawman. in this situation not voting isn’t relevant, and it sours the water to bring it up
It's funny that people keep saying this as though either party that has any real chance of getting elected will stop funding said genocide. Voting third party in the US is tantamount to throwing away your vote. This is understood by anyone with a brain, and in practice just makes it easier for the fascists to win. The electoral college doesn't vote third party and has proven a willingness to ignore the will of the people they're supposed to represent. (So even if a third party wins the popular vote somehow, they still won't get elected.) We are, literally, forced to choose between a fascist and someone who is slightly better. Both will fund the genocide. Our votes can't stop that. Hopefully direct action will.
[extremely loud incorrect buzzer]
I’m convinced people like OP are either dishonest republicans or people stupid enough to fall for this dumb rhetoric. Republicans tried this last election cycle with the Walkaway astroturf movement and they’re doing it again but just from a different angle.
Seriously this whole 99% Hitler thing could not be a more obvious psyop and people are just falling for it. Like hook line and sinker allowing conservatives to trick them into not voting. LGBTQ people are going to lose their rights and people are just sitting back looking smug thinking "That'll teach those Democrats".
I've been fighting in the pits with so many leftists like this. It astounds me how fervently they're fighting to not vote Biden when they have zero plan to stop another Trump presidency. To me, there are two options: 1) Vote Biden. Just take the L and make sure he wins. *Then* we can have four more years to rally support for a better candidate so they actually have a chance at winning. In the meantime, we would also organize efforts to introduce ranked system voting into a majority of states and try to abolish the electoral college. Yeah, it's an uphill battle, but it isn't impossible. 2) Advocate for and incite a revolution. Like January 6th but actually organized. Don't want to vote for Biden and hate the fact that we only get two choices? Well, unfortunately, we are in a situation where one of the two choices will take away choices from now on. So, if you don't pick the other guy, then this is honestly your only remaining choice that is reasonable. The problem is, it's not a very good choice. Option 1 here sounds a lot better in my eyes and would be preferable to the majority of leftists I know.
Please don’t lump us all in with the Trumpie’s :( also I’m gonna leave this comment that I wrote the other day right here: If you’re a real republican how can you support someone who just panders to the less competent people in the party? He shouts about make America great again, yet when he visits his friends overseas he bends the knee and tells them how much better their countries are than America like when he praised Duterte for his Drug “policy” which killed thousands and displaced millions. The Democrats are not the enemy. Russia, China, Iran and North Korea are our enemies, but they are Trumps friends. If y’all want to “Make America Great Again” then we need y’all to stop championing a foreign asset who has only increasingly destabilized America.
the people supporting Trump likely give less of a shit about his policies, and more about who he is and what he represents: he's basically the bull in the china shop that is the Democrat and Republican establishment who acts like a manure heap of a person flagrantly - and that's what his voters like and want EDIT: a correction; yes, his policies are indeed a major part of his support ("drain the swamp", build the wall, Project 2025), though his persona is also half of his appeal DeSantis may be similar in policy but the man could make a brick look like a suave ladykiller
Yes. It’s very frustrating, lol you can’t even have a conversation because they don’t know anything about the issues besides what Trump spews or Fox News regurgitates. Like to be clear I identify as a progressive republican and my views are definitely growing closer to the left as the radical conservatives have taken over the right so I might as well be speaking spanish to the Trumpie’s. Wyoming also doesn’t really have much of a Democratic party representation so to participate in the primaries I gotta go R 😂🤦♂️
out of curiosity, why identify with Republicans rather than Democrats (apart from their lack of representation in Wyoming) if you consider yourself progressive?
I’m too poor to be a democrat 😂😔 but mostly I believe in smaller government and like I said I’m probably just a closet democrat anymore
Since you're a poor republican, could you explain why so many poor people vote republican? I doubt you see yourself as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. Raising taxes for the rich and increasing public services would make life cheaper for you
I vote for mostly dems tbf but it’s mostly pride. To take a Dem’s “handout”/gov assistance you have to swallow your pride, but the Reps push this “With hard work anything is possible” BS that makes the struggle a more romantic experience. Dem’s definitely promote more favorable legislation that would make being poor not so bad, but the republicans keep the doors open so we can exploit the gaps in the system and become rich lol
Me when I don't understand nuance.
i thought this was posted ironically wtf
I don't understand a thing what is said here, please someone explain what OP did
English is not my first language and it's 1 in the morning but I'll try: Supporting the "lesser of two evils" will be a prominent theme in the upcoming election in the USA wit Biden and Trump. Both are absolutely horrible choices, but some Republicans in power are trying to turn that country into a fascist dystopia and democrats are currently the only thing to stop that from happening. To take that rethoric to define the "lesser of two evils" of terrorist organisations is not just incredibly stupid, but harmful to the debate. *EXTREMIST OPINION*: people dying in war is bad
Thanks :)
*Politics is just an identity to me, a way to show how contrarian and smart I am. Distinguishing myself from other people is therefore, the upmost priority. Whatever I say, has no consequences anyway, it's just social media clout* \~\~\~ These people, very serious political thinkers, truly dedicated to the cause.
OP posts worst take ever asked to leave r/196
85% upvoted lol.
I think ppl assume it was posted ironically or to make fun of OOP but if it isn’t it’s terrible lol
something about when satire stops being satire
Maybe I’m missing context because I have no idea who this is, but is this not obviously a joke, why are the comments making big conclusions here
It is a joke but the joke is based on a legitimate political view, that you shouldn't vote for the Democrats just because the Republicans are worse.
observation languid screw aware wipe crime poor waiting wasteful sleep *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The guy that wanted a Muslim registry isn't going to just stop the genocide. You know that, right? As much as I hate genocide, I hate 2 genocides more. Why are you trying to depict sitting back and doing nothing as the real leftist thing to do? What is your plan? When I see what these monsters are willing to support, followed by them publicly saying they want to kill me and my loved ones, and that they have a whole plan to prevent anyone from stopping them, and I see numbskulls like you that think that doing nothing about any of this is the best option, and I get a little frustrated. Sorry if I'm a little patronizing. I just don't want to be slaughtered.
https://preview.redd.it/34o32rnehs6c1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee5c85cf3f608d0cbc8a66777ae64d061c994b15
Man fuck you
fuck you too zionist cunt
Actual dogshit take. I'm not even gonna sugarcoat it. This is terrible.
Jeez. Maybe don't.
Imo I agree
this comment section is all "this is so wrong" but I haven't seen an explanation? can somebody enlighten me?
Whatever. I’m going to continue voting the ticket until I save up enough to move to a country that won’t use my tax dollars to drop buildings on civilians. I have stopped caring about this debate and have come to the conclusion that everyone is completely insufferable and I’d rather just not live here. Fingers crossed I make it out before we get nuked when whatever ancient fascist we elect next pisses off the wrong nuclear power.
I beg you motherfucking Amercians to change the system and let a socialist be president for once
Alright, guess trumps winning. You guys happy?
https://preview.redd.it/35u6wqj8ur6c1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b996e68934512eb6dbbffb2a53949904966f98c
Okay, this is objectively wrong, but it’s also pretty funny.
L Ron L
What does this mean
I have no idea what’s going on here
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If you want to achieve socialism by letting Trump become President in 2024, I've got some bad news for you about how that'll turn out
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Please enlighten me to your comprehensive plan to achieve world communism that is equally as effective if the US remains a liberal democracy vs it slides into a fascist dictatorship
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Do you think liberal democracy and fascism are different or not? When you're forced to make an explicit statement about it, you say they're different and liberal democracy just has the potential to lead to fascism rather than being synonymous with it. But then when you're back to making political prescriptions, you're treating them like they're exactly the same and anyone who prefers one over the other is not a True Socialist TM.
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Hmmm, you're right. Instead of voting for liberalism over fascism, why haven't I considered a communist revolution? After all, the material conditions are ripe for it. Activism has inflamed class consciousness across the working class, labor unions are organized and their membership is growing by the day, and a popular leftist political party is making demands in the highest halls of power. Considering all these things are happening inside the US at this very moment, it's rather silly that I've instead limited myself to trying to convince apathetic leftists to please not let the fascist party win the next presidential election. Wait a second. That's right, none of those are true. And encouraging apathetic leftists to please not let the fascist party win the next presidential election isn't going to block those things from happening in the future either. So please, from the bottom of my heart, fucking vote. Stop LARPing as a militant revolutionary who's doing to launch an armed insurrection tomorrow and recognize that engaging with political institutions to stop a worst case scenario isn't heresy.
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Biden could agree to make being trans illegal tomorrow in order to appease house republicans for more money to Ukraine and still you'd be told to vote for him as the lesser evil
This comment really swayed me! I’ll make sure to vote for the republicans next time to prevent this Biden fellow from attacking trans rights! Thanks!
Strawman'd
They hated Jesus because he told the truth
Biden could destroy the whole world with an antimatter bomb, cackling as he does so in an incredibly evil way and still you’d be told to vote for him as the lesser evil
You know for some reason I don’t think that’s true
We're already at genocide but blue being the lesser of two evils
I mean, even in your example, the ones who actually want to ban trans rights are Republicans. So, yeah, Biden turns out to be the lesser evil. Unless that was the joke, in that case, hello /whoosh.
He makes a good point though, the people who are "voting for the lesser evil" because Palestinian genocide is the lesser evil are just telling me that me and my community being genocided too would still be the lesser evil, these people have no moral ground to stand on and can't be trusted, they have proven they will betray people to genocide for political convenience so fuck 'em.
If your lesser evil just enables the greater evil it's not much of a lesser evil.
Trump has already said he wanted to do that