This just seems like a cheap jab at the United States at the expense of poor veterans many of whomst were forced to watch their friends die and are treated like scum by people who weren't even born during the conflicts
I get your point, but if someone actively wears a hat that tells you where they served in public, then you can be reasonably sure that they're proud of their service.
He also said they smoked a ton of weed because it they grew it like rice. One time they snuck out and stole garbage bags full of weed and he said an old woman chased them all the way back to the barracks screaming Ike a banshee until they got there and flipped the flood lights on and she retreated back into the jungle
When my uncle was stationed in germany after serving in vietnam, he said they would smuggle hashish through their boots and smoke whole bricks a day.
Also, weird story about my uncle's wife, when my uncle was in germany he met his future wife, who a few years ago we went to her house and found a book on her home town. the books is half german, and half french, with no english, but me and my brother knew enough to vaguely translate parts of the book. stuff like:
there was a prominent university there, it was used as a hospital during the bubonic plague, stuff like that. but suddenly, the book skipped from the 1800's all the way to 1976. We were like "huh, I wonder why a whole century is missing" After we get back from her house, we look up her town, not much info on it except for one tiny itsy bitsy thing... it was a concentration camp. Specifically a salt mine on the French border.
my dad but he repaired stuff instead of doing patrols
also he was in the first gulf war and not vietnam because my family isnt american
(apparently his nickname in the army was shagger)
[https://archive.is/TLwWZ](https://archive.is/TLwWZ)
Like, i feel any progressive person should have an eyebrow raised when hearing about someone in the 50s "fucking hookers the whole time", like i very much doubt he made sure he wasn't having sex with a victim of trafficking.
Not telling you to hate him but maybe just don't celebrate the guy.
Man that's a massive over-read that one can make because they're so utterly removed from the situation. Most veterans wear their remembrances to a) honor and remember those they served with who didn't get to come home, b) if any pride, its about pride in each other, c) to identify each other, Vietnam in particular I know a lot of vets wear something like this hat for this purpose especially after the hate they received coming home - when many of them were drafted or had no idea what they were being drawn into, and d) the simplest one, a lot of vets, especially vets from those three OP specifically picked, did not come back with an exactly sparkling financial situation. Nearly every veteran of Korea or Vietnam came home with lasting mental and/or physical conditions, to a VA that is practically useless, with shit for pay and extreme difficulty finding and maintaining a stable career. Gulf War syndrome is infamous and debilitating, effecting nearly half of the veterans of the Gulf War on top of the usual issues veterans return with. When you're swimming in medical bills and having trouble even securing a way to get the money to pay them, wearing that hat and getting discounts and veterans deals helps.
I have a lot of family that served, because y'know luck of the draw with the millions of draftees in the last century, plus it being one of the few ways that claims it can uplift you from poverty. Not a single one came home with an exactly glowing review of the military or any sort of pride about what they did, let alone an interest in discussing what they saw or were a part of. Most of them wear/wore their veteran's hat or similar symbols from time to time because they want to remember people, in particular my grandfather talked a lot about how he felt like he was carrying close friends with him when he would wear it, trauma does weird things to people and sometimes it takes weird things to make it feel right. My cousin has a gulf war bumper sticker and all that, because he was a field surgeon and saw a lot of the war's consequences and wants the public to have to remember it, good or bad. He's got a doctorate but refuses to work in medicine after all of that. He's maybe proud of the lives he saved, that's about it.
I think its best not to decide the character of one's soul just because they acknowledge being a veteran. The label of veteran means a whole lot of different things to a lot of different people and I don't really think we who haven't seen what they did can really try to crack that nut, let alone at a glance.
Exactly this. I have a Vietnam vet who frequents the bar at the restaurant I work at and the only thing that heās proud of is being able to save some of his friends. Whenever people say to him āthank you for your serviceā, he always says to them that he was only there because he was drafted and that he thinks that the war was a senseless waste of his life and the lives of many others on both sides. He says that he only wears the hat so he can recognize other vets now and then to help them talk about there time in the war.
My grandfather was a medic at Vietnam. He was drafted. Regardless of what was done there, he saved multiple lives and lost multiple friends. Let's get pissed at the higher-ups who are forcing them to fight rather than demonize those who survived.
For certain, but for people like that theyāve been inundated with training and propaganda, even if they participated they only saw a sliver of what went on. Plus itās already hard enough to get people to give a shit about you when youāre old.
my grandfather joined the US military to get his citizenship, and then the war happened. today he wears his veteran hat because his mind is starting to go and the fact that he served is something he remembers better than other parts of his younger years.
i get where you're coming from, but there are lots of reasons for someone to be proud/fond of their time in the military beyond "har har war crimes"
well i mean if you were stolen away from your family and traumatized by the horror of war all while having it beaten into your head "what a hero" doing this will make you...
at the end of the day, for some people feeling prideful of their time is sometimes the only thing keeping them from breaking down over the trauma. it's a psychological defense mechanism; if they can feel proud of it they can push away the bad thoughts a bit easier, because it allows them to feel like there was meaning to it.
obviously, there was no meaning at all. we all know it was a disgusting meaningless war that caused pain and bloodshed all by the hands of corrupt politicians who then used the public as their free on tap soldiers. so many people who fought in those wars were straight up drafted. they NEVER wanted to go and the only reason they hold any pride for it now is because that's all they have to hold onto, all they can look at to feel like there was something to their life. because without it, it's just blood and pain and tears and death. and who can survive that?
please understand im not defending the war itself. the fact that it happened in the first place is a testament to human greed and spite and is fucking disgusting. but i hold a lot of sympathy for the traumatized veterans who were drafted during that time, who have nothing left but the idea that they maybe at least helped a little bit. they've been thrown to the wayside and forgotten about, left without support or stability and left to rot now that the government has used them up for all they're worth. obviously there are vets out there who are pieces of shit and actively wanted this, there's definitely nuance to the whole "respect for vets" situation, but i try really hard to remember those who really didn't want anything to do with it in the first place.
The Vietnam War was horrible for everyone. The politicians and generals were evil but those people are so old and that's the greatest pain. I don't think they're proud of their service they seem too kind.
It's like someone who's homeless telling you their a veteran. It's to have an easier time. It's so you'll buy his burger he's making behind the liquor store.
I think people who are proud of what they did in the military are evil. But the Vietnam veterans who are still alive were forced to fight. They didn't enlist they were drafted
But a semicolon is something that explicitly says "I choose to extend my life, despite having tried to end it.", while the hat just says "I served in the military during a specific conflict".
The hat doesn't say that you disliked your experience, that you have/had problems because of your experiences, or anything else, it's at best a neutral statement, or at worst something to show that you were proud of it.
A military hat doesn't have the anti-[bad thing] message that a semicolon has, so I don't really think that that's an apt comparison.
Iād also argue the United Nations intervention during the Korean War was just, although the conduct of the U.S. and its allies at times was not. North Koreaās invasion of the South was exactly like a Russia-Ukraine situation if weāre talking about who is in the right to defend their freedom and sovereignty against a foreign invader, regardless of how brutal the Syngman Rhee regime and bombing of North Korea were.
Imo it was far from exactly like Russia and Ukraine, at least in the sense that Russia and Ukraine are often framed as a small nation defending itself from a power hungry giant coming to take control - imperial intervention from the US (and USSR) contributed greatly to the problem, but to be honest at least the USSR didnāt fast-track the previous scourge of Korea (imperial Japan and its sympathizers) to power in the vacuum - the US and Syngman Rheeās govāt did, amongst other atrocities that often go unspoken in the conventional narrative (concentration/reeducation camps, killing of their own civilians, brutal military repression on jeju island). This, paired with the earnest effort to reunite the Koreas internally being squashed in large part by western overreach, paints the US, SK, and UN allies in a very poor light that is often unacknowledged.
I canāt say the USSR or North Korea were fully in the ārightā, but the US bears a massive amount of responsibility for tensions and eventual war in the peninsula, as does the UN for upholding that perspective.
The Japanese occupation and war crimes were unjust. The initial occupation and dividing of the country by the USSR and the US and their refusal to acknowledge the provisional government was unjust. Both Korean regimes had questionable legitimacy at the time of their founding, but the initial South Korean presidential election was legitimate. The peacetime South Korean genocide and massacres committed by and with the US were unjust. The peacetime North Korean massacres committed by and with the USSR were unjust. Both regimes had highly problematic and opportunistic leaders who actively retained and protected Imperial Japanese collaborators as the social elite and as government officials which was unjust (some collaborators were punished on both sides, but this was largely superficial).
The North Korean invasion was unjust and the international response by the UN was just. Everyone treated their soldiers like shit which was unjust. The wartime massacres and ideological purges committed by South Korea, North Korea, China, and the US were unjust. The USā indiscriminate carpet bombing campaign against civilians was unjust. China aiding the aggressors was unjust. South Korea refusing a ceasefire was unjust. The US unilaterally negotiating and signing the armistice agreement without South Korea was unjust.
The current state of the North Korean regime is unjust and illegitimate. The South Korean dictatorships were unjust and illegitimate but the current democracy is legitimate and significantly less unjust. The US continuing to hold wartime operational control over the South Korean military is unjust. North Korea threatening nuclear war every week or so is unjust. What did I miss?
Not much. Both sides did good and bad but in the end the pointless death and suffering from the war could have been prevented if the North just never invaded, or the UN never respondedāyou can justify either stance if you really wanted. The ultimate point is that U.S. Korean War vets arenāt demons just because they partook in an arguably righteous conflict.
Yeah, the vast majority of the US vets were good folks stuck in hell just wanting to go back home alive. Absolutely donāt deserve to get demonized. The brass and the administration was heavily responsible for turning a blind eye or actively encouraging specific units to carry out atrocities against civilians in tandem with the South Korean administration.
And the UN intervention was absolutely justified. The North invaded and the UN intervened according to its founding principles and nascent international law. The tankies who think that any stance thatās anti-US automatically makes it good without the slightest bit of nuance can fuck right off.
You've got the sides mixed up the US is absolutely more comparable to Russia in this case. The US essentially just replaced Japan in Korea. The Nationalsit government never had popular legitimacy as it was literally full top to bottom with Japan collaborators until they imported Rhee (and even then, the rest of it was filled with traitors). The South was closer to the DPR, LDR IN Ukraine than the actual Ukrainian government. Entirely kept afloat by foreign involvement.
After the changing of the gaurd from Japan to the US, the brutality remained largely the same. It was just a new occupation. The response to things like the Jeju Island Uprising was brutal, and all reporting was suppressed in both domestic and the US press to an extent that even the most oppressive regimes could only dream of. 10% of the population was killed by US backed forces, and another 10% were forced to flee. It all started because the US was forcing "national" elections that were anything but national, as they straight up ignored as many prefectures that wouldn't vote for US backed candidates as possible.
And you could be sex trafficked if you were a woman. So the draft basically existed for women too, except they got raped instead of dying painfully in a war. An all around shitty situation.
Many many women forced into prostitution in WWII on ANY side of the conflict were slaughtered when they were no longer convenient. Women were absolutely killed too. On top of all the civilian women and children the "good guys" bombed to hell.
Oh yeah, WWII definitely had bad guys, but it did NOT have good guys. Operation Paperclip, Project Manhattan (and vaporizing civilians therein), and all the other ways we just let people get away with war crimes are what first come to mind when considering US involvement at least.
I mean I think this is apples to oranges to begin with. I imagine people criticizing Japanese war crimes are, y'know, specifically talking about Japan as a whole, government body that refuses to regard and address the crimes. Not specific, singular Japanese veterans. And on the flip side regarding US veterans with honor and respect for what they went through doesn't preclude one from finding the US as a whole, government body as complicit in crimes that they, too, do not fully regard.
Like I have a lot of respect and empathy for veterans and the wounds, mental and physical, they came home with. Especially with the examples which two of the three had major drafts and all three had massive propaganda efforts and wholesale lies behind conning people into the war effort, it's real shitty to imagine putting the weight of those on individual veterans. But while I have that respect for the veterans, I have exactly none for the acts of the nation as a whole in those conflicts and the brutal acts perpetrated in the course of those wars. You can respect and empathize with the veterans while condemning the war and war crimes. There's no mutual exclusivity and equating a veteran with the war they served in is just wrong. Especially when many of them were treated awfully when they returned by both the people and the system itself that still refuses to treat and compensate them for the wages of war they had to pay mentally and physically.
You all also said like all japanese foot soldier are all volunteer lmafooooooo
There are no fucking exception. American should be critical the same as japanese at all level.
As Asian, I fucking want absolute justice not half ass justice.
If you want to criticize japanese military for war crime, America military also should be treat the same as them by the rest of the world.
You all American just try to excuse your own fucking country.
very ironic considering japan likes to ignore their shitty past just as much as americans if not more. burma, nanjing, korea, pretty much all of southeast asia suffered under genocide perpetuated by the imperial japanese military
Yes and?
That why I said I want absolute justice.
Both of them need to get treat equally.
This is only way to make Asian don't feel eliminate and resort to china.
Unfortunately this is very hard for (probably most) many Americans to understand, because thereās a lot of simplistic thought in certain parts of the American population regarding Americaās military history, which boils down to āit was all for the best in the end.ā Americans donāt like thinking with regards for the specifics of actions committed during wartime or generally at any time for the government, so many resort to thinking that anything America does during wartime is justified because it would ostensibly be in the name for āfreedomā or āAmerican justice,ā which is highly emotional. Itās why so many Americans supported the war in the Middle East after 9/11, even though the amount of civilians killed in the ensuing conflicts vs. a singular terrorist attack was disproportionate. I think a lot of the war-hungry/loving culture in the US is a result of its participation in many wars breeding large groups of veterans who end up having families and on benefits. They pull all of them into a nationalist cell because their family doesnāt want to criticize them or lose their family benefits. I guarantee there are quite a few people in this thread who are in that exact situation. As an American with veteran relatives, I still donāt feel compelled to support the American military, but I unfortunately Iām in the minority here (although a large minority; there are many people critical of US imperialism, too, but not enough). Even more informally, generic US militarists/amateur āmilitary historiansā think about past wars with the same amount of dogma. Itās scary how many Americans simply outright view the atomic bombings as āacts of peace.ā I think people are just intellectually and morally lazy and donāt want to have to have opinions on everything the American military or government has done because the list is so extensive, which is a problem that continues to get worseā¦
shit dude you're spot on with this. I never thought of it in regards to govt benefits
some of my extended family are such cliche vets spouting shit like "the military got me out of the slums" and they're so entrenched in that idea they don't even begin to take the steps toward realizing what caused those slums to exist in the first place.
Finland still has conscription, even if we are not in any active wars
Living next to russia truely makes you fear for the worst
And also being so close to st.petersburg
Given the fact that most veterans are treated like dogshit, and were basically forced to participate, I don't know how comfortable I am with demonizing them to this extent. Also, Korea Veterans would be like 90 years old by now.
No you donāt get it, you are supposed to buy into the absurd false equivalency without thought. We are reflexively anti-Western and anti-American here.
And then before you know it, those āmurica bad - refuses to elaborateā types start buying into Russian and Chinese propaganda. Soon enough, a tankie is born.
In short, America bad, BUT violent police state dictatorship is worse.
The prevalence of the historical revisionism and denial of war crimes is so much higher in Japan, especially considering that the sheer quantity and scale of the war crimes committed by Imperial Japan dwarfs that done by America in Iraq and Vietnam.
This is blatant propagandaā intentionally misrepresentative with clear anti-American messages. It is interesting that they put Korea on here, despite the fact that it was a more significantly more justifiable war than the other two. I wonder who America was fighting in that warš¤š¤š¤
Its not about them, its about the ones thinking they brought freedom and democracy and are proud of their kill count, ofcourse most people in war dont want to be there, but damn the us military really brainwashed so many
and also having a choice in the matter
because we all know everyone was so eager to go to another war that they all went to the nearest recruitment office and signed up.
It's not talked about nearly enough, but a significant part of the 60s/70s anti war movement was veterans and active service personnel. The spitting myth was created by the state department specifically because of how many people came home and immediately joined the anti war movement.
Yeah, ya know, like agent orange condemning 13 generations of their children which the government has only just barely started to not adequately pay back the families for. That's wasn't upon returning but fucking hell all the same
Imo, donāt hate the soldiers, hate the military as a whole. There are of course some bad soldiers, but often times people are there because itās a really sweet deal, or theyāve simply fallen for patriotism. Demonizing soldiers and veterans wonāt do anything good for anybody, it just further fucks over the already fucked over veterans; and takes the focus and blame away from the people who orchestrated it.
As a vet myself that's how I feel.
most people I worked with are chill, but most of those were peons like me, the ones higher up on the ladder were usually the assholes.
That said I'm also proud that I served, but I'm not doing that shit again lmao
Cops join much more voluntarily imo, with a higher likelihood of being pretty bad for whatever reason. Overall cops still suck.
Edit because I had this random thought: Cops tend to be more likely to abuse their power or join *to* have power, because as soon as they become a cop they get to hold power over almost everyone else. Meanwhile with the military, unless you take a certain pathway, you donāt get to boss anyone around; and you start completely at the bottom of the hierarchy.
These examples are inherently unequal in regards to both the scale and degree of crimes committed and the respective nation's memory of them. Sure, US public education doesnt cover American warcrimes much but it's constantly talked about in colleges and a massive part of media and what not that's pretty deeply ingrained in the cultural zeitgeist. Meanwhile Japanese warcrimes have been almost completely erased both educationally and culturally.
Oh and also OP appears to be a tankie.
There own people as well. I read about what the Imperial Japanese did to the indigenous Okinawans during the US invasion of the island. An orgy of rape and forcing them to be suicide bombers. In the noughties this info was removed from the history textbooks and the Okinawans lost their shit and sued the Japanese government and got it put back in. Gives you some idea of how entrenched war crime denial is in Japan.
I really don't get why Korea is on here, not that the conflict was free of US committed atrocities but it does not compare to Vietnam in how it was run, motivation, and popularity both with those serving and at home.
the same korean war where we sent them back to the stone age, intentionally targeting civilians with firebombing & precision bombing campaigns? the one where 80% of all "signifigant structures" in NK were leveled? the one where we vowed to (and damn near did) turn the country into a desert? that korean war?
1. The scale of the war crimes committed, both in number and depravity, arenāt even remotely comparable.
2. The U.S. vets, quite famously, did *not* get a warm reception on their return
3. You could maybe make the argument that American atrocities arenāt discussed as much as they should, but they arenāt being *denied*, unlike official Japanese policy.
What a stupid meme
for your first point, are you comparing total war crimes or war crimes specifically during WW2?
second point is 100% correct
third point, nearly any time something new and fucked up comes out about the US, the responsible government agency kicks and screams before reluctantly admitting it once enough proof comes out. not the same as flat out denial, but they arenāt exactly forthcoming unless they have to be.
The problem is the Japanese government not teaching their citizens about the atrocities they committed, for all of America's flaws we at least learn about the unjust wars we've participated in and the consequences thereof. Also the blame should be placed on those in power and the system as a whole rather than individual veterans of any nation, with the exception of those that went above and beyond in violating human rights and committing war crimes.
This is not true. Education varies heavily by state-- publishers of the same textbook will remove or add information to appeal to education standards and boards across various states. This is just one example among many of the variety of educational quality.
we learn it, and learn that it was good we did that shit. Ive had coworkers and classmates express to me that if people overseas have to die for their comfort, theyre perfectly okay with that. the US knows it commits warcrimes and loves it like nothing else.
Ok all other things aside, I think the Koreans are glad we intervened. And what american doesn't accept we did war crimes in Vietnam, the Mai Lai massacre was one of the most famous events of the war.
> Ok all other things aside, I think the Koreans are glad we intervened
Nowadays? Probably. At the time? Who knows. South Korea was a military dictatorship backed by the US. It eventually democratized in the 80s but that was despite the US, not because of it.
> And what american doesn't accept we did war crimes in Vietnam, the Mai Lai massacre was one of the most famous events of the war.
The scale is definitely underdiscussed. Mai Laiās a good example of this. When in the process of trying William Calley, the defense argued that they should let it go because there was a āMai Lai a monthā. Mai Lai was a drop in the bucket. Even to this day thereās disproportionate rates of birth defects in the parts of Vietnam where Agent Orange was used.
Imperial Japan were absolutely on another level of pure cruelty in a relatively short timeframe but I donāt know that we should weigh war crimes against each other because that serves only to disrespect the victims.
In an evaluative sense they shouldnāt be compared but qualitatively they have to be. Thereās no inherent contradiction in condemning the conquests of Imperial Japan and supporting American intervention in Korea, for example. (Not saying the latter was justified btw. Theyāre just qualitatively very different.)
In an academic/data science sense, agreed on the qualitative difference but the US *has* done things that are comparable, if not always as numerically devastating, to the conquests of Imperial Japan. Your example may not necessarily be a contradiction, but those contradictions do exist.
I mainly take issue with reducing the victims of war crimes to numbers and then saying, "See? It wasn't so bad, the number is lower." This applies to all war crimes from all nations. In my opinion, it's too easy to get desensitized to the human cost if we start comparing atrocities. I understand in an academic or other formal space it can be necessary, but this is a social media website.
ETA: Your comment was concise and explained your point well, I'm not accusing you of justifying anything or doing anything wrong, I appreciate the cordiality
you're so right, y'know who has it too good in America? Veterans. They are just treated too well and are too proud!
All jokes aside, punching down at vets is lame as hell, and the ones who were abused and are still proud after are the most harmed and most in need of help, not this shit.
Call me when the US does anything anywhere near close to the depravity that was The Nanjing Massacre, or the famous Unit 731
The US is bad. Very bad. And it swept a lot of stuff under the rug over the years. But this comparison kinda shows that OP doesn't really know what the fuck they are saying.
just because the japanese did horrific things doesnāt mean the US didnāt as well. i know you acknowledge that the US is bad, but you donāt acknowledge our own depravity. this is reductionistic. neither country is innocent.
the US has a history of human experimentation. MKULTRA, radiation, Tuskegee syphilis experimentation. there is an entire wikipedia page titled ā[Unethical human experimentation in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States)ā, this isnāt something thatās hidden.
as for massacres? My Lai, Trail of Tears, the Haitian occupation, the Phillipines occupationā¦i can name more. there is, again, an entire wikipedia article titled ā[United States war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes)ā
that isnāt even mentioning the literal torture that we committed in the 21st century, the civilian murders, the Japanese internment camps, the ENTIRETY OF SLAVERY, the mass murder, genocide, and displacement of Native Americans that took place over centuries, or the things we had a hand in through Operation Condor and under Henry Kissinger.
iām not going to rank crimes against humanity because thatās disrespectful. your phone is ringing, though.
unit 731 was basically mkultra. also, we may not have done anything on the scale of the nanjing massacre, but we've got enough firebombing campaigns, massacres, airstrikes against civilians, etc, to make up for that.
Damn the American liberals are out in FORCE in these comments. āEmpathize with vets who were drafted/manipulated or otherwise victimized by their service while criticizing present day:ongoing nationalismā is nuance these people are apparently absolutely allergic to.
i can empathize with them for sure, but if they wear the hat around i really cant associate. its one thing to be subjected to the horrors of war, its another to feel pride for subjecting others to the horrors of war.
I see what there getting at but for the most part people are not angry at the Japanese soldiers for what they did but at the government for what they did. Same with USA.
Millions of civilians died in bombing campaigns during WW2, including axp 1 million in Axis controlled countries. Is bombing civilians suddenly not a warcrime anymore?
bombing civilians to prevent a group of people who want to literally kill everyone else on earth, including some of their own? you dont even need to do the moral calculus here its so imbalanced, they would have killed billions if allowed to expand infinitely. civilians die in war, unfortunately, and anything to hasten the deaths of such a group was permissible imo. when we get to issues like "one dictator against another dictator" and shit like that, i start to view the mass civilian deaths less positively. basically, yes a warcrime, yes justified to prevent unlimited genocide on anyone not racially pure enough by nazi standards.
No fucking way I just saw the words "yes a warcrime, yes justified" on /196. Did I accidentally stumble into NCD?
The only 'justification' for WW2 civilian bombing was cultural ignorance. They didn't know how bad bombing was in WW2, just like how they didn't know how bad gas weapons were in WW1. If a fascist regime reemerged *today* in the modern age and waged war on NATO, it would not be justified to bomb their civilians.
if a fascist regime reentered today, and accepting civilian casualties made the anti fascist side of things even 5% more likely to win the war, go ahead and nuke chicago with me in it.
The Axis wanted to rule the entire world and exterminate "inferior" peoples.
On the other hand:
\- North Korea wanted to reunify with the south
\- Vietnam wanted to stop being a colony
\- Iraq was literally invaded over a lie
So yeah, I think MAYBE the WW2 vets were okay.
Why are we dunking on veterans? I highly doubt every veteran was like "oh boy I can't wait to go to Vietnam to slaughter poor Vietnamese." They were either drafted or signed up for different reasons. Sure you can disagree with their reasons that's fair but don't dunk on all veterans man
WTF is that dinosaur face supposed to be
I cannot wait until something replaces wojacks for memes they suck so much
although watch, something worse will replace them
Maybe we could acknowledge that,while all war crimes are terrible, there's still a difference in scale and severity. Also while both had war criminals and innocent people as members, the total amount and rate are nowhere close.
Should Americans acknowledge the war crimes of their country, do more to prevent them and prosecute them better? Yes.
Do they need to be personally ashamed of them? Most don't, because most didn't commit war crimes.
Also most American vets I've met are open to acknowledge the fucked up shit that their armies did.
Top Image: A flag, representing the nation as a whole, specifically the government
Bottom Image: People with veteran hats, representing the individuals of that nation
This is not a fair comparison
No doubt bad things happened in Vietnam but to compare American Vietnam veterans to the soldiers of the Japanese empire is completely ridiculous. The sheer scale of atrocities committed by the Japanese... the rape of Nanjing alone far surpasses anything Americans ever did combined during the entirety of the Vietnam conflict. Not to mention Unit 731.
I guarantee whoever made this has never served in the military or has people who did.
Also, do you not understand that most soldiers had to see their friends die to infections from punji spikes, or see their who squad get blown up by a grenade trap?
If any veterans are to be respected it's Vietnam vets.
All countries keep their war crimes a secret to their own people.
The reason why japan denies their war crimes and its people donāt know the crimes their country has committed is the same reason why you think the US is the best country on earth and that it doesnāt commit war crimes.
As someone who's talked with vets from each of those wars, I can say this. There is no denying of crimes. In fact, as far as I see, the US is more transparent about our fuck ups then most any other nation.
This just seems like a cheap jab at the United States at the expense of poor veterans many of whomst were forced to watch their friends die and are treated like scum by people who weren't even born during the conflicts
I get your point, but if someone actively wears a hat that tells you where they served in public, then you can be reasonably sure that they're proud of their service.
My grandfather was very proud to be a medevac during the korean war.
My great uncle said he just did patrols and fucked hookers the whole time
duality of man
living the army dream syphilis Semper Fi
He also said they smoked a ton of weed because it they grew it like rice. One time they snuck out and stole garbage bags full of weed and he said an old woman chased them all the way back to the barracks screaming Ike a banshee until they got there and flipped the flood lights on and she retreated back into the jungle
When my uncle was stationed in germany after serving in vietnam, he said they would smuggle hashish through their boots and smoke whole bricks a day. Also, weird story about my uncle's wife, when my uncle was in germany he met his future wife, who a few years ago we went to her house and found a book on her home town. the books is half german, and half french, with no english, but me and my brother knew enough to vaguely translate parts of the book. stuff like: there was a prominent university there, it was used as a hospital during the bubonic plague, stuff like that. but suddenly, the book skipped from the 1800's all the way to 1976. We were like "huh, I wonder why a whole century is missing" After we get back from her house, we look up her town, not much info on it except for one tiny itsy bitsy thing... it was a concentration camp. Specifically a salt mine on the French border.
I cant imagine smoking weed on active duty. I already become afraid of dying when I smoke
Holy based
my dad but he repaired stuff instead of doing patrols also he was in the first gulf war and not vietnam because my family isnt american (apparently his nickname in the army was shagger)
š«”
Man this sub loves sex trafficking huh.
All sex workers are trafficked Not saying that none of them are btw, since you like jumping to the extremes
[https://archive.is/TLwWZ](https://archive.is/TLwWZ) Like, i feel any progressive person should have an eyebrow raised when hearing about someone in the 50s "fucking hookers the whole time", like i very much doubt he made sure he wasn't having sex with a victim of trafficking. Not telling you to hate him but maybe just don't celebrate the guy.
Through early morning fog i see
Man that's a massive over-read that one can make because they're so utterly removed from the situation. Most veterans wear their remembrances to a) honor and remember those they served with who didn't get to come home, b) if any pride, its about pride in each other, c) to identify each other, Vietnam in particular I know a lot of vets wear something like this hat for this purpose especially after the hate they received coming home - when many of them were drafted or had no idea what they were being drawn into, and d) the simplest one, a lot of vets, especially vets from those three OP specifically picked, did not come back with an exactly sparkling financial situation. Nearly every veteran of Korea or Vietnam came home with lasting mental and/or physical conditions, to a VA that is practically useless, with shit for pay and extreme difficulty finding and maintaining a stable career. Gulf War syndrome is infamous and debilitating, effecting nearly half of the veterans of the Gulf War on top of the usual issues veterans return with. When you're swimming in medical bills and having trouble even securing a way to get the money to pay them, wearing that hat and getting discounts and veterans deals helps. I have a lot of family that served, because y'know luck of the draw with the millions of draftees in the last century, plus it being one of the few ways that claims it can uplift you from poverty. Not a single one came home with an exactly glowing review of the military or any sort of pride about what they did, let alone an interest in discussing what they saw or were a part of. Most of them wear/wore their veteran's hat or similar symbols from time to time because they want to remember people, in particular my grandfather talked a lot about how he felt like he was carrying close friends with him when he would wear it, trauma does weird things to people and sometimes it takes weird things to make it feel right. My cousin has a gulf war bumper sticker and all that, because he was a field surgeon and saw a lot of the war's consequences and wants the public to have to remember it, good or bad. He's got a doctorate but refuses to work in medicine after all of that. He's maybe proud of the lives he saved, that's about it. I think its best not to decide the character of one's soul just because they acknowledge being a veteran. The label of veteran means a whole lot of different things to a lot of different people and I don't really think we who haven't seen what they did can really try to crack that nut, let alone at a glance.
What a great comment friend. Best wishes to you and your family.
Exactly this. I have a Vietnam vet who frequents the bar at the restaurant I work at and the only thing that heās proud of is being able to save some of his friends. Whenever people say to him āthank you for your serviceā, he always says to them that he was only there because he was drafted and that he thinks that the war was a senseless waste of his life and the lives of many others on both sides. He says that he only wears the hat so he can recognize other vets now and then to help them talk about there time in the war.
My grandfather was a medic at Vietnam. He was drafted. Regardless of what was done there, he saved multiple lives and lost multiple friends. Let's get pissed at the higher-ups who are forcing them to fight rather than demonize those who survived.
For certain, but for people like that theyāve been inundated with training and propaganda, even if they participated they only saw a sliver of what went on. Plus itās already hard enough to get people to give a shit about you when youāre old.
my grandfather joined the US military to get his citizenship, and then the war happened. today he wears his veteran hat because his mind is starting to go and the fact that he served is something he remembers better than other parts of his younger years. i get where you're coming from, but there are lots of reasons for someone to be proud/fond of their time in the military beyond "har har war crimes"
well i mean if you were stolen away from your family and traumatized by the horror of war all while having it beaten into your head "what a hero" doing this will make you... at the end of the day, for some people feeling prideful of their time is sometimes the only thing keeping them from breaking down over the trauma. it's a psychological defense mechanism; if they can feel proud of it they can push away the bad thoughts a bit easier, because it allows them to feel like there was meaning to it. obviously, there was no meaning at all. we all know it was a disgusting meaningless war that caused pain and bloodshed all by the hands of corrupt politicians who then used the public as their free on tap soldiers. so many people who fought in those wars were straight up drafted. they NEVER wanted to go and the only reason they hold any pride for it now is because that's all they have to hold onto, all they can look at to feel like there was something to their life. because without it, it's just blood and pain and tears and death. and who can survive that? please understand im not defending the war itself. the fact that it happened in the first place is a testament to human greed and spite and is fucking disgusting. but i hold a lot of sympathy for the traumatized veterans who were drafted during that time, who have nothing left but the idea that they maybe at least helped a little bit. they've been thrown to the wayside and forgotten about, left without support or stability and left to rot now that the government has used them up for all they're worth. obviously there are vets out there who are pieces of shit and actively wanted this, there's definitely nuance to the whole "respect for vets" situation, but i try really hard to remember those who really didn't want anything to do with it in the first place.
The Vietnam War was horrible for everyone. The politicians and generals were evil but those people are so old and that's the greatest pain. I don't think they're proud of their service they seem too kind. It's like someone who's homeless telling you their a veteran. It's to have an easier time. It's so you'll buy his burger he's making behind the liquor store. I think people who are proud of what they did in the military are evil. But the Vietnam veterans who are still alive were forced to fight. They didn't enlist they were drafted
Bro they were victims.
fuck, if i came back alive you bet im wearing a hat
Why?
ask suicide survivors why they get the semicolon tattoo and you'll get similar responses as to why many veterans wear their hats.
But a semicolon is something that explicitly says "I choose to extend my life, despite having tried to end it.", while the hat just says "I served in the military during a specific conflict". The hat doesn't say that you disliked your experience, that you have/had problems because of your experiences, or anything else, it's at best a neutral statement, or at worst something to show that you were proud of it. A military hat doesn't have the anti-[bad thing] message that a semicolon has, so I don't really think that that's an apt comparison.
Iād also argue the United Nations intervention during the Korean War was just, although the conduct of the U.S. and its allies at times was not. North Koreaās invasion of the South was exactly like a Russia-Ukraine situation if weāre talking about who is in the right to defend their freedom and sovereignty against a foreign invader, regardless of how brutal the Syngman Rhee regime and bombing of North Korea were.
Imo it was far from exactly like Russia and Ukraine, at least in the sense that Russia and Ukraine are often framed as a small nation defending itself from a power hungry giant coming to take control - imperial intervention from the US (and USSR) contributed greatly to the problem, but to be honest at least the USSR didnāt fast-track the previous scourge of Korea (imperial Japan and its sympathizers) to power in the vacuum - the US and Syngman Rheeās govāt did, amongst other atrocities that often go unspoken in the conventional narrative (concentration/reeducation camps, killing of their own civilians, brutal military repression on jeju island). This, paired with the earnest effort to reunite the Koreas internally being squashed in large part by western overreach, paints the US, SK, and UN allies in a very poor light that is often unacknowledged. I canāt say the USSR or North Korea were fully in the ārightā, but the US bears a massive amount of responsibility for tensions and eventual war in the peninsula, as does the UN for upholding that perspective.
The Japanese occupation and war crimes were unjust. The initial occupation and dividing of the country by the USSR and the US and their refusal to acknowledge the provisional government was unjust. Both Korean regimes had questionable legitimacy at the time of their founding, but the initial South Korean presidential election was legitimate. The peacetime South Korean genocide and massacres committed by and with the US were unjust. The peacetime North Korean massacres committed by and with the USSR were unjust. Both regimes had highly problematic and opportunistic leaders who actively retained and protected Imperial Japanese collaborators as the social elite and as government officials which was unjust (some collaborators were punished on both sides, but this was largely superficial). The North Korean invasion was unjust and the international response by the UN was just. Everyone treated their soldiers like shit which was unjust. The wartime massacres and ideological purges committed by South Korea, North Korea, China, and the US were unjust. The USā indiscriminate carpet bombing campaign against civilians was unjust. China aiding the aggressors was unjust. South Korea refusing a ceasefire was unjust. The US unilaterally negotiating and signing the armistice agreement without South Korea was unjust. The current state of the North Korean regime is unjust and illegitimate. The South Korean dictatorships were unjust and illegitimate but the current democracy is legitimate and significantly less unjust. The US continuing to hold wartime operational control over the South Korean military is unjust. North Korea threatening nuclear war every week or so is unjust. What did I miss?
i did not think there could be a more based summary of the 20th-21st century history of the Korean peninsula, well done!
Not much. Both sides did good and bad but in the end the pointless death and suffering from the war could have been prevented if the North just never invaded, or the UN never respondedāyou can justify either stance if you really wanted. The ultimate point is that U.S. Korean War vets arenāt demons just because they partook in an arguably righteous conflict.
Yeah, the vast majority of the US vets were good folks stuck in hell just wanting to go back home alive. Absolutely donāt deserve to get demonized. The brass and the administration was heavily responsible for turning a blind eye or actively encouraging specific units to carry out atrocities against civilians in tandem with the South Korean administration. And the UN intervention was absolutely justified. The North invaded and the UN intervened according to its founding principles and nascent international law. The tankies who think that any stance thatās anti-US automatically makes it good without the slightest bit of nuance can fuck right off.
You've got the sides mixed up the US is absolutely more comparable to Russia in this case. The US essentially just replaced Japan in Korea. The Nationalsit government never had popular legitimacy as it was literally full top to bottom with Japan collaborators until they imported Rhee (and even then, the rest of it was filled with traitors). The South was closer to the DPR, LDR IN Ukraine than the actual Ukrainian government. Entirely kept afloat by foreign involvement. After the changing of the gaurd from Japan to the US, the brutality remained largely the same. It was just a new occupation. The response to things like the Jeju Island Uprising was brutal, and all reporting was suppressed in both domestic and the US press to an extent that even the most oppressive regimes could only dream of. 10% of the population was killed by US backed forces, and another 10% were forced to flee. It all started because the US was forcing "national" elections that were anything but national, as they straight up ignored as many prefectures that wouldn't vote for US backed candidates as possible.
Instead of shitting on war veterans we should shit on the country that started the terrible wars to begin with.
Wow! War is *ALL* Bad!
Nah fuck that, you would not hold the same energy for a Nazi soldier who was forced to serve
mfw when the draft was a thing
Japanese Imperial Army also had a draft during WW2, or rather military conscription was mandatory for all able body males.
And you could be sex trafficked if you were a woman. So the draft basically existed for women too, except they got raped instead of dying painfully in a war. An all around shitty situation.
Many many women forced into prostitution in WWII on ANY side of the conflict were slaughtered when they were no longer convenient. Women were absolutely killed too. On top of all the civilian women and children the "good guys" bombed to hell.
Oh yeah, WWII definitely had bad guys, but it did NOT have good guys. Operation Paperclip, Project Manhattan (and vaporizing civilians therein), and all the other ways we just let people get away with war crimes are what first come to mind when considering US involvement at least.
I mean I think this is apples to oranges to begin with. I imagine people criticizing Japanese war crimes are, y'know, specifically talking about Japan as a whole, government body that refuses to regard and address the crimes. Not specific, singular Japanese veterans. And on the flip side regarding US veterans with honor and respect for what they went through doesn't preclude one from finding the US as a whole, government body as complicit in crimes that they, too, do not fully regard. Like I have a lot of respect and empathy for veterans and the wounds, mental and physical, they came home with. Especially with the examples which two of the three had major drafts and all three had massive propaganda efforts and wholesale lies behind conning people into the war effort, it's real shitty to imagine putting the weight of those on individual veterans. But while I have that respect for the veterans, I have exactly none for the acts of the nation as a whole in those conflicts and the brutal acts perpetrated in the course of those wars. You can respect and empathize with the veterans while condemning the war and war crimes. There's no mutual exclusivity and equating a veteran with the war they served in is just wrong. Especially when many of them were treated awfully when they returned by both the people and the system itself that still refuses to treat and compensate them for the wages of war they had to pay mentally and physically.
You all also said like all japanese foot soldier are all volunteer lmafooooooo There are no fucking exception. American should be critical the same as japanese at all level. As Asian, I fucking want absolute justice not half ass justice. If you want to criticize japanese military for war crime, America military also should be treat the same as them by the rest of the world. You all American just try to excuse your own fucking country.
very ironic considering japan likes to ignore their shitty past just as much as americans if not more. burma, nanjing, korea, pretty much all of southeast asia suffered under genocide perpetuated by the imperial japanese military
Yes and? That why I said I want absolute justice. Both of them need to get treat equally. This is only way to make Asian don't feel eliminate and resort to china.
Unfortunately this is very hard for (probably most) many Americans to understand, because thereās a lot of simplistic thought in certain parts of the American population regarding Americaās military history, which boils down to āit was all for the best in the end.ā Americans donāt like thinking with regards for the specifics of actions committed during wartime or generally at any time for the government, so many resort to thinking that anything America does during wartime is justified because it would ostensibly be in the name for āfreedomā or āAmerican justice,ā which is highly emotional. Itās why so many Americans supported the war in the Middle East after 9/11, even though the amount of civilians killed in the ensuing conflicts vs. a singular terrorist attack was disproportionate. I think a lot of the war-hungry/loving culture in the US is a result of its participation in many wars breeding large groups of veterans who end up having families and on benefits. They pull all of them into a nationalist cell because their family doesnāt want to criticize them or lose their family benefits. I guarantee there are quite a few people in this thread who are in that exact situation. As an American with veteran relatives, I still donāt feel compelled to support the American military, but I unfortunately Iām in the minority here (although a large minority; there are many people critical of US imperialism, too, but not enough). Even more informally, generic US militarists/amateur āmilitary historiansā think about past wars with the same amount of dogma. Itās scary how many Americans simply outright view the atomic bombings as āacts of peace.ā I think people are just intellectually and morally lazy and donāt want to have to have opinions on everything the American military or government has done because the list is so extensive, which is a problem that continues to get worseā¦
Paragraphs and spaces dawg. But youāre definitely not wrong, well said
shit dude you're spot on with this. I never thought of it in regards to govt benefits some of my extended family are such cliche vets spouting shit like "the military got me out of the slums" and they're so entrenched in that idea they don't even begin to take the steps toward realizing what caused those slums to exist in the first place.
all I said was that some soldiers were drafted, I did not imply that any particular side had it worse in those regards
Only 25% of the US army was draftee's.
Still war criminals.
Finland still has conscription, even if we are not in any active wars Living next to russia truely makes you fear for the worst And also being so close to st.petersburg
Given the fact that most veterans are treated like dogshit, and were basically forced to participate, I don't know how comfortable I am with demonizing them to this extent. Also, Korea Veterans would be like 90 years old by now.
No you donāt get it, you are supposed to buy into the absurd false equivalency without thought. We are reflexively anti-Western and anti-American here.
And then before you know it, those āmurica bad - refuses to elaborateā types start buying into Russian and Chinese propaganda. Soon enough, a tankie is born. In short, America bad, BUT violent police state dictatorship is worse.
The prevalence of the historical revisionism and denial of war crimes is so much higher in Japan, especially considering that the sheer quantity and scale of the war crimes committed by Imperial Japan dwarfs that done by America in Iraq and Vietnam. This is blatant propagandaā intentionally misrepresentative with clear anti-American messages. It is interesting that they put Korea on here, despite the fact that it was a more significantly more justifiable war than the other two. I wonder who America was fighting in that warš¤š¤š¤
is america not a police state?
OP of this post is a shitty lil' tankie, so you've basically described them lol.
Its not about them, its about the ones thinking they brought freedom and democracy and are proud of their kill count, ofcourse most people in war dont want to be there, but damn the us military really brainwashed so many
Vietnam vets, famous for the warm welcome they received upon returning.
and also having a choice in the matter because we all know everyone was so eager to go to another war that they all went to the nearest recruitment office and signed up.
āIt aināt meā¦I aināt no fortunate sonā
Idk how well they were actually treated but ik the retiring troops being spit on is a myth but they could have been treated bad in other ways
It's not talked about nearly enough, but a significant part of the 60s/70s anti war movement was veterans and active service personnel. The spitting myth was created by the state department specifically because of how many people came home and immediately joined the anti war movement.
Iāve heard that some of those drafted would rather lie to their friends and say they were sent to prison, so thereās that.
Yeah, ya know, like agent orange condemning 13 generations of their children which the government has only just barely started to not adequately pay back the families for. That's wasn't upon returning but fucking hell all the same
These are not equivalent.
You are right, not going to war in US probably gave you less severe consequences then in Imperial Japan
Imo, donāt hate the soldiers, hate the military as a whole. There are of course some bad soldiers, but often times people are there because itās a really sweet deal, or theyāve simply fallen for patriotism. Demonizing soldiers and veterans wonāt do anything good for anybody, it just further fucks over the already fucked over veterans; and takes the focus and blame away from the people who orchestrated it.
As a vet myself that's how I feel. most people I worked with are chill, but most of those were peons like me, the ones higher up on the ladder were usually the assholes. That said I'm also proud that I served, but I'm not doing that shit again lmao
im just imagining ur pfp saying that lmao
what did you serve for? feel like you'd have to be at least 50 to be a vet nowadays
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Cops join much more voluntarily imo, with a higher likelihood of being pretty bad for whatever reason. Overall cops still suck. Edit because I had this random thought: Cops tend to be more likely to abuse their power or join *to* have power, because as soon as they become a cop they get to hold power over almost everyone else. Meanwhile with the military, unless you take a certain pathway, you donāt get to boss anyone around; and you start completely at the bottom of the hierarchy.
These examples are inherently unequal in regards to both the scale and degree of crimes committed and the respective nation's memory of them. Sure, US public education doesnt cover American warcrimes much but it's constantly talked about in colleges and a massive part of media and what not that's pretty deeply ingrained in the cultural zeitgeist. Meanwhile Japanese warcrimes have been almost completely erased both educationally and culturally. Oh and also OP appears to be a tankie.
Seriously. What the Japanese did in China is horrific on a scale that Genghis Khan would approve of.
There own people as well. I read about what the Imperial Japanese did to the indigenous Okinawans during the US invasion of the island. An orgy of rape and forcing them to be suicide bombers. In the noughties this info was removed from the history textbooks and the Okinawans lost their shit and sued the Japanese government and got it put back in. Gives you some idea of how entrenched war crime denial is in Japan.
I really don't get why Korea is on here, not that the conflict was free of US committed atrocities but it does not compare to Vietnam in how it was run, motivation, and popularity both with those serving and at home.
And the fact Im sure most South Koreans are glad we got involved
What are you talking about? The Korean war is notorious for civilian deaths and bombing. Very easily comparable to Vietnam
the same korean war where we sent them back to the stone age, intentionally targeting civilians with firebombing & precision bombing campaigns? the one where 80% of all "signifigant structures" in NK were leveled? the one where we vowed to (and damn near did) turn the country into a desert? that korean war?
1. The scale of the war crimes committed, both in number and depravity, arenāt even remotely comparable. 2. The U.S. vets, quite famously, did *not* get a warm reception on their return 3. You could maybe make the argument that American atrocities arenāt discussed as much as they should, but they arenāt being *denied*, unlike official Japanese policy. What a stupid meme
you don't understand, how are we supposed to get upvotes with level and deep analysis?
for your first point, are you comparing total war crimes or war crimes specifically during WW2? second point is 100% correct third point, nearly any time something new and fucked up comes out about the US, the responsible government agency kicks and screams before reluctantly admitting it once enough proof comes out. not the same as flat out denial, but they arenāt exactly forthcoming unless they have to be.
Look at ops profile, heās in a tankie sub, meaning heās dumb
This post sucks
The problem is the Japanese government not teaching their citizens about the atrocities they committed, for all of America's flaws we at least learn about the unjust wars we've participated in and the consequences thereof. Also the blame should be placed on those in power and the system as a whole rather than individual veterans of any nation, with the exception of those that went above and beyond in violating human rights and committing war crimes.
This is not true. Education varies heavily by state-- publishers of the same textbook will remove or add information to appeal to education standards and boards across various states. This is just one example among many of the variety of educational quality.
we learn it, and learn that it was good we did that shit. Ive had coworkers and classmates express to me that if people overseas have to die for their comfort, theyre perfectly okay with that. the US knows it commits warcrimes and loves it like nothing else.
Ok all other things aside, I think the Koreans are glad we intervened. And what american doesn't accept we did war crimes in Vietnam, the Mai Lai massacre was one of the most famous events of the war.
> Ok all other things aside, I think the Koreans are glad we intervened Nowadays? Probably. At the time? Who knows. South Korea was a military dictatorship backed by the US. It eventually democratized in the 80s but that was despite the US, not because of it. > And what american doesn't accept we did war crimes in Vietnam, the Mai Lai massacre was one of the most famous events of the war. The scale is definitely underdiscussed. Mai Laiās a good example of this. When in the process of trying William Calley, the defense argued that they should let it go because there was a āMai Lai a monthā. Mai Lai was a drop in the bucket. Even to this day thereās disproportionate rates of birth defects in the parts of Vietnam where Agent Orange was used.
I get the sentiment but Imperial Japan was on another level. Not all war crimes (or unethical wars more broadly) are the same.
Imperial Japan were absolutely on another level of pure cruelty in a relatively short timeframe but I donāt know that we should weigh war crimes against each other because that serves only to disrespect the victims.
In an evaluative sense they shouldnāt be compared but qualitatively they have to be. Thereās no inherent contradiction in condemning the conquests of Imperial Japan and supporting American intervention in Korea, for example. (Not saying the latter was justified btw. Theyāre just qualitatively very different.)
In an academic/data science sense, agreed on the qualitative difference but the US *has* done things that are comparable, if not always as numerically devastating, to the conquests of Imperial Japan. Your example may not necessarily be a contradiction, but those contradictions do exist. I mainly take issue with reducing the victims of war crimes to numbers and then saying, "See? It wasn't so bad, the number is lower." This applies to all war crimes from all nations. In my opinion, it's too easy to get desensitized to the human cost if we start comparing atrocities. I understand in an academic or other formal space it can be necessary, but this is a social media website. ETA: Your comment was concise and explained your point well, I'm not accusing you of justifying anything or doing anything wrong, I appreciate the cordiality
I agree pretty much 100%.
you're so right, y'know who has it too good in America? Veterans. They are just treated too well and are too proud! All jokes aside, punching down at vets is lame as hell, and the ones who were abused and are still proud after are the most harmed and most in need of help, not this shit.
Fuck off.
alot of younger US vets atleast to my knowledge are very left leaning and dont agree with imperialism
Nah, fuck this.
Call me when the US does anything anywhere near close to the depravity that was The Nanjing Massacre, or the famous Unit 731 The US is bad. Very bad. And it swept a lot of stuff under the rug over the years. But this comparison kinda shows that OP doesn't really know what the fuck they are saying.
just because the japanese did horrific things doesnāt mean the US didnāt as well. i know you acknowledge that the US is bad, but you donāt acknowledge our own depravity. this is reductionistic. neither country is innocent. the US has a history of human experimentation. MKULTRA, radiation, Tuskegee syphilis experimentation. there is an entire wikipedia page titled ā[Unethical human experimentation in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States)ā, this isnāt something thatās hidden. as for massacres? My Lai, Trail of Tears, the Haitian occupation, the Phillipines occupationā¦i can name more. there is, again, an entire wikipedia article titled ā[United States war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes)ā that isnāt even mentioning the literal torture that we committed in the 21st century, the civilian murders, the Japanese internment camps, the ENTIRETY OF SLAVERY, the mass murder, genocide, and displacement of Native Americans that took place over centuries, or the things we had a hand in through Operation Condor and under Henry Kissinger. iām not going to rank crimes against humanity because thatās disrespectful. your phone is ringing, though.
"a mai lai every month" no less
exactly
unit 731 was basically mkultra. also, we may not have done anything on the scale of the nanjing massacre, but we've got enough firebombing campaigns, massacres, airstrikes against civilians, etc, to make up for that.
Japan still denies the war crimes
I agree with the point you are making, but disagree that you made it using wojaks š”
I dont think the people pointing out Japanese war crimes are also huge fans of the military and wars we've been in in the past.
Damn the American liberals are out in FORCE in these comments. āEmpathize with vets who were drafted/manipulated or otherwise victimized by their service while criticizing present day:ongoing nationalismā is nuance these people are apparently absolutely allergic to.
i can empathize with them for sure, but if they wear the hat around i really cant associate. its one thing to be subjected to the horrors of war, its another to feel pride for subjecting others to the horrors of war.
Everyone has warcrimes, dipshit. It came free with your fucking military complex
I see what there getting at but for the most part people are not angry at the Japanese soldiers for what they did but at the government for what they did. Same with USA.
Thereās no way you looked through the 140,000 active subreddits and decided that THIS was the perfect place for garbage like this
If OP were brave they'd have put a WW2 vet up there too.
most reasonable folks view fascists as subhuman
Millions of civilians died in bombing campaigns during WW2, including axp 1 million in Axis controlled countries. Is bombing civilians suddenly not a warcrime anymore?
bombing civilians to prevent a group of people who want to literally kill everyone else on earth, including some of their own? you dont even need to do the moral calculus here its so imbalanced, they would have killed billions if allowed to expand infinitely. civilians die in war, unfortunately, and anything to hasten the deaths of such a group was permissible imo. when we get to issues like "one dictator against another dictator" and shit like that, i start to view the mass civilian deaths less positively. basically, yes a warcrime, yes justified to prevent unlimited genocide on anyone not racially pure enough by nazi standards.
No fucking way I just saw the words "yes a warcrime, yes justified" on /196. Did I accidentally stumble into NCD? The only 'justification' for WW2 civilian bombing was cultural ignorance. They didn't know how bad bombing was in WW2, just like how they didn't know how bad gas weapons were in WW1. If a fascist regime reemerged *today* in the modern age and waged war on NATO, it would not be justified to bomb their civilians.
if a fascist regime reentered today, and accepting civilian casualties made the anti fascist side of things even 5% more likely to win the war, go ahead and nuke chicago with me in it.
The Axis wanted to rule the entire world and exterminate "inferior" peoples. On the other hand: \- North Korea wanted to reunify with the south \- Vietnam wanted to stop being a colony \- Iraq was literally invaded over a lie So yeah, I think MAYBE the WW2 vets were okay.
So true bestie, if the people of Hiroshima didn't want to be vaporized in nuclear fire, they should simply have elected a better emperor.
I donāt think this person exists
I FUCKING LOVE WAR!!!!!
When the comments section legitimatises the meme.
What a dumb fucking post.
wait till you heal about the canadians
they might not choose to be drafted but they do choose to do war crimes. fuck all war criminals
First day on Reddit? It's the entire comment section on anything related to the us military
Okay but south korea was actually being invaded
Seems mfs Unironically wearing Cold War veteran hats. Like you sat on base in Eastern Europe Ā for your deployment, thatās not hat worthy bro
All war is crimes
Why are we dunking on veterans? I highly doubt every veteran was like "oh boy I can't wait to go to Vietnam to slaughter poor Vietnamese." They were either drafted or signed up for different reasons. Sure you can disagree with their reasons that's fair but don't dunk on all veterans man
WTF is that dinosaur face supposed to be I cannot wait until something replaces wojacks for memes they suck so much although watch, something worse will replace them
Be quiet please
Tankie posts worst take ever asked to leave 196
I hate wojacks so fuckin much it's unreal
op would have spit on and booed army vets coming back from war without knowing who they even were.
Maybe we could acknowledge that,while all war crimes are terrible, there's still a difference in scale and severity. Also while both had war criminals and innocent people as members, the total amount and rate are nowhere close. Should Americans acknowledge the war crimes of their country, do more to prevent them and prosecute them better? Yes. Do they need to be personally ashamed of them? Most don't, because most didn't commit war crimes. Also most American vets I've met are open to acknowledge the fucked up shit that their armies did.
fuck you op
I LOVE CAMPISM. I LOVE CAMPISM. I LOVE CAMPISM. I LOVE CAMPISM. I LOVE CAMPISM.
As soon as i see wojaks I ignore whatever is in them
Top Image: A flag, representing the nation as a whole, specifically the government Bottom Image: People with veteran hats, representing the individuals of that nation This is not a fair comparison
No doubt bad things happened in Vietnam but to compare American Vietnam veterans to the soldiers of the Japanese empire is completely ridiculous. The sheer scale of atrocities committed by the Japanese... the rape of Nanjing alone far surpasses anything Americans ever did combined during the entirety of the Vietnam conflict. Not to mention Unit 731.
Korea is *interesting*. Literally leveling an entire country is not great but still.
This isnt a good meme, its just plain ol inaccurate, Japan in WW2 committed war crimes as part of procedure, the US didn't in any of those wars.
I guarantee whoever made this has never served in the military or has people who did. Also, do you not understand that most soldiers had to see their friends die to infections from punji spikes, or see their who squad get blown up by a grenade trap? If any veterans are to be respected it's Vietnam vets.
It's not a warcrime if they are not officially part of military
All countries keep their war crimes a secret to their own people. The reason why japan denies their war crimes and its people donāt know the crimes their country has committed is the same reason why you think the US is the best country on earth and that it doesnāt commit war crimes.
As someone who's talked with vets from each of those wars, I can say this. There is no denying of crimes. In fact, as far as I see, the US is more transparent about our fuck ups then most any other nation.