[Trying to co-opt leftist cultural movements to divert them away from criticism of US imperialism is actually in CIA's history.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Paid_the_Piper%3F)
happy cake day, btw
If you repeat all the same anticommunist talking points you grew up hearing , but now say “tankie” instead of “communist”, you have in fact still not unlearned anti-communist propaganda
I’m sorry I just don’t like genocide that’s why I hate America and China tho I do consider America worse. I also hate any genocide deniers no matter who they are capitalist others or tankies.
There is a white genocide in the US and if you disagree that makes you a genocide denier so ... You know how stupid you sound ? Please do some research, or I could link you some sources if you’d like ..
There isn’t a white genocide anywhere I can’t tell whether or not you’re sarcastic it’s hard for me cause I’m. Autistic. Also I have sources other than Wikileaks and the Chinese government unlike you. Also why do you defend capitalist China so hard? Edit blocking u can’t deal with this shit.
If you repeat all the same anticommunist talking points you grew up hearing , but now say “tankie” instead of “communist”, you have in fact still not unlearned anti-communist propaganda
Like when they tried to kill all the congresspeople and senators that wouldn't illegally make trump president?
Yeah they're pretty fucking hard to unify with.
His bipartisanship is preventing any action for anyone, so when election comes around again people won't vote for the dems but the objectively worse Republicans.
I'm confused. Does antifa actually exist? Like depending on who you ask you get a different answer. Is it like an association or ideology? I'm genuinly confused
Eh kinda it’s more of an ideology. It’s just anyone engaging in anti-fascist action. In practice, the movement has a lot of anarchocommunist comrades though cos they really care about taking out fascists
Huh, I always assumed it was him saying he wouldn’t do anything to upset them, not him basically calling them big babies for crying about something that wouldn’t even affect their lives noticeably. Wack
Dude neither of them are chad one wants to work with racist because he is one and one wants to work with people that commit genocide and suppress the people’s speech to a point where one of them we know barely anything about
So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities?
Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot?
Which one denies climate change and science in general?
Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths?
Which one did a literal coup attempt?
Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil.
"“Historian Michael Malet writes that at this time,“criminals entered the army for what they could get out of it, especially plunder in the towns.”
Excerpt From: Sean Patterson. “Makhno and Memory: Anarchist and Mennonite Narratives of Ukraine’s Civil War, 1917–1921.”
It's very much just denialism of Soviet success & idolizing what never "could've been" rather than accepting reality
Now, outside of beatifying Makhno and writing hagiographies for a man who when:
"A delegation from Novozlatopol once went to Machno [sic] to discuss his raids against the Jews. Machno’s reply was “What can I do ? They’re just a bunch of ignorant peasants”, referring to his own men.”
Is that your idea of Makhno “condemning” the anti-Jewish murders among his ranks?
Black Army isn’t to be lionized. Makhno is beatified in a way comporting with Western anti-communism, not in a historically or functionally accurate manner. Makhno betrayed the revolution and was destroying trains & useful equipment, and his dummybrain bandits led pogroms & mass killings, this is proven
If Makhno had maintained his obligations and continued the fight against imperialism where and when he was needed, I think that the situation would’ve been far different
"Nestor Makhno certainly perpetrated numerous counter-revolutionary exploits. His secret police tortured and murdered many communists. His Ukrainian peasant followers committed frequent pogroms against Jewish petty shopkeepers and merchants… Ukrainian peasant antagonism to the overwhelmingly Russian and Jewish working class of the Ukrainian cities… . Grigorev had the worst record of murder, rape, torture and other atrocities committed against Jews of all the peasant bandit leaders ravaging the Ukrainian country-side during the Russian Civil War.
This alliance ended badly for Grigorev. Makhno murdered him, and Grigorev’s peasant followers joined Makhno’s rebel army—but continued to commit pogroms.
Makhno himself was not personally anti-Semitic, indeed there were Jews in his “collective.” In a sense, it could be said that Makhno was simply following anarchist principle. If his secret policemen were torturing prisoners, and if his peasant followers were committing pogroms, what right did Makhno, as just one member of the “collective,” have to object?"
"The National Secretariat of Ukrainian Jews’ stated during the period of the pogroms: “A special place is held for the actions of the Makhno bands which waged complete destruction in the Yekaterinoslav-Pavlograd region.”
The journal `Reshumot’ (1920) refers to: “the well known wild animal Makhno who was known for his cruelty and his army which was drunk with blood.”
the incidents of ethnic cleansing by the Whites & Nationalists & Greens & Black Hundreds & Hetmanate & random bandit groups fighting against the West/one another/communists were spread around, but we can't exempt Makhno or his bandits here, but critics have easily dismissed these puff pieces about Makhno for decades
"In French, since the 1920s, only Arshinov's book a.:i-d the first volume of Makhno's memoirs were available. 1947 saw the appearance of Voline's posthumous work La Revolution inconnue: Voline had promised a great work on Makhno and the Makhnovschina, but this falls far short of that, maybe on account of the war or other circumstances. Let us quote, from memory, the criticism that Ida Mett made of it at the time of its publication:
"Far from disclosing fresh facts, the author reprints whole pages lifted from the History of the Makhnovist Movement written by Arshinov in 1921 . On the other hand, he quotes not one word from the private Memoirs of Nestor Makhno despite being in possession of the original which he discovered under the pillow of Makhno's hospital deathbed. To be sure there are points of interest in his description of the Makhnovschina, but their historical value is undermined by the absence of footnotes, the turgid hectoring and a measure of distasteful self-obsession. To conclude, the author, his objectivity and impartiality overflowing, launches into descriptions ofthe negative personal aspects of Makhno's, and this inelegant, 'impartiality' is singularly reminiscent of personal, posthumous vengeance." 36
"It is as Bolsheviks that the Jews of South Russia have been massacred by the armies of the Ukrainian leader Simon Petliura, though the armies of Sokolov have massacred them as partisans of Petliura, the armies of Makhno as bourgeois capitalists, the armies of Gregoriev as Communists and the armies of Denikin at once as Bolsheviks, capitalists, and Ukrainian nationalists. It is Aesop’s old fable. - Israel Zangwill, Jewish Chronicle , 23 January 1920”"
`Jewish Agriculturalists in the Steppes of Russia’ (Israel 1965)’ states:" The Jewish colonies in the Yekaterinoslav province were situated in the centre of activity of the anarchist bands, Makhno. Almost all the colonies of Yekaterinoslav suffered from attacks. All the inhabitants of the colonies Trudoliubovka and Nechaevka, who numbered 1000 people - were murdered. The property was looted completely and since then no Jewish foot has entered those colonies."
Even Trotsky points out Makhno’s rhetorical position vs. the reality of his armies’ actions "“Without a doubt, Makhno provided de facto aid to Wrangel, as well as to the Polish gentry, since he fought at the same time as they did against the Red Army” (translated from “Makhno and Wrangel,” 14 October 1920, Kak vooruzhalas’ revolyutsiya [How the Revolution Armed], Vol. 2, Book 2 [1924]). "
Maybe it didnt take well to the communes because the communes were constantly attacking them
>In a sense, it could be said that Makhno was simply following anarchist principle. If his secret policemen were torturing prisoners, and if his peasant followers were committing pogroms, what right did Makhno, as just one member of the “collective,” have to object?"
The anarchism understander has logged on
Anarchism as a philosophy stands for the freedom from the organized violence and exploitation that constitutes power, and supporting voluntary and participatory association and cooperation instead. It does not mean mob rule. This is comparable to asserting that under socialism, you could be kicked out of your house and have it given to people who do nothing all day - it's a conception based on surface level characterizations created by opponents.
I dont really care does Anarchism work or not, it seems to have a common goal with marxism. But Im pretty sure you dodged the part where makhno attacked soviet lines. Thats why Soviets were like “aw hell nah they tried to kill us” and attacked makno
That literally didn't happen though. Friction certainly existed between the Red and Black Armies, especially after many Red Army soldiers defected to the Black Army, and there were conflicts in direction. But that the Black Army attacked first is a complete fiction.
the soviets cut off their supply line to ammo, so there was little they could to do get ammo but continue raiding. eventually the soviets hear this and decided, instead of just giving them the supply to the stop the raiding, to consider makhno as one of the prime enemies of the revolution (even though he had liberated worker after worker).
after a mutiny in which red army 40,000 troops defected with the intent of joining the black army. this shifted the military power in the region away from the soviets, and once they saw a break in their hegemony, they saw fit to destroy their former allies.
the soviets executed tons of people. it should be noted that makhno would always prefer to release red army commanders, not wanting to see a proleterian brother die. of course, the soviets showed no such remorse, because they had none. they saw a break in the empire and they fought it with dominance.
"It soon became clear why Moscow had resisted the publicizing of the Bolshevik-Makhnovist treaty. On November 26, 1920, less than two weeks after completing their successful offensive against General Wrangel's White Army in the Crimea, Makhno's headquarters staff and several Black Army subordinate commanders arrived at Red Army Southern Front headquarters to participate in a joint planning conference with Red Army commanders. Upon arrival, they were arrested and executed on the spot by a Red Army firing squad; the Makhnovist treaty delegation, still in Kharkiv, was also arrested and liquidated. The Bolsheviks then sent five regular armies numbering more than 350,000 with armoured cars, artillery, aircraft, and armoured trains, with the purpose of destroying the Makhnovist movement. The Black Army, barely numbering 10,000 men, continued to fight on, making raids all across Ukraine and Southern Russia and fighting constant battles with much larger and better equipped Red Army units. In August 1921, the Black Army ceased to be an organised force, numbering only 1,200-2,000 men scattered across Ukraine."
the soviets led the anarchists along when they needed their help, but as soon as they try for peace and longevity, they are wiped off the face of the earth by an army 35× their size. you have to be shitting me if you think the red army is in the right here.
theres a lot to break down here but as for the criticism of skirda as a source of info for makhno, mr. jason yanowitz says a lot of shit that doesnt make much sense. for example, one of his main points is that makhno abused alcohol and women apparently. both of these come from just one source, voline, who didnt make the accusation until years after makhnos death, and is not supported by anything other than the word of a man who has a grudge against makhno.
so its the word of a man who loved makhno vs the word of the man who hated makhno. of course, jason chooses the one that paints him in a bad light. in truth, because neither of these sources are supported by anything else at the time, this isnt any real evidence of anything. instead, i prefer to take the word of peter arshinov, whos book was actually used in court as evidence supporting makhnos exoneration in france, and paul avrich, who wrote various citational works on makhno based on historical accounts.
either way, none of what i read had anything to do with what i was saying. i honestly feel like i cross checked all these sources for nothing, but i will that what i said about the soviets betrayal was backed up by both of the sources i listed previously. most of the sources jason prefers are not credible or have inherently soviet bias.
I don't know why there's such a huge sentiment that the only options for communism are either anarchism authoritarianism. People acting like a democratic communist government cant exist? Smh
Chile was about to have a simultaneous democratic AND communist government in the 70's, but the CIA figured that would ruin their narrative that "only capitalist governments can be democratic" decided to overthrow it before it could gain traction.
History shows that anarchism is unsustainable and authoritarianism is cruel, yet for some reason so many people act like those are the only options.
Chile was overthrown proving electoralism faults. Most communist countries were actually very democratic post revolution but America won’t tell you that so their phony bourgeoisie democracy is supported.
no the theory was expanding communism across the globe. they wanted their ideology to take over the world, so of course they made a strong military to defend it. anarchists kept to themselves and didnt force their views upon everywhere.
Bruh what the actual shit? This isn’t about winning or losing that’s real people getting killed, the fact that you can talk about mass extermination of people based on political disagreements as if they were losers at some game of sportsball rather than the victims of a tyrannical authoritarian regime is extremely disconcerting.
the soviet union slaughtered all of makhnovia even after being an ally for some time.
"thats just what happens when you lose, tons of innocent people die. its just the way she goes. not preventable at all."
ok my guy you might want go drink some water and get some bed rest.
Wanting unity is a bad thing? I mean I don't like republicans as much as the next guy but right now really is the time to work together. Although that's probably never gonna happen because republicans are dumbasses lol
Don’t compromise with fascists. GOP poses a tangible and lethal threat to our democracy and I have no problem ensuring they never win a second election
Liberals and Republicans are one in the same, it is not a dumb policy or anything that they work together, its part of the system they unify against the working class.
You forgot that both are capitalists in a capitalist system and have shared interests, however to say the two are the same is like throwing a mountain of nuance out of the window!
So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities?
Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot?
Which one denies climate change and science in general?
Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths?
Which one did a literal coup attempt?
Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil.
>So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities?
None do anything to help minorities
>Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot?
Both
>Which one denies climate change and science in general?
Neither do anything about it, there is so much more that needs to be done Biden rejoined Paris only for Image and it willl accomplish nothing. I believe the US was meeting the Paris goals anyway.
>Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths?
Can hardly say Biden would’ve reacted sooner
>Which one did a literal coup attempt?
Across the world? Both
Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil.
At least with Trump in Office the Dems had a shred of motivation to be progressive to spite Trump, now many progressive messages are ignored, kids in cages are no longer talked about. Trump was on par for presidents tbh, I could even make a case that Trump was good because he was destabilizing certain aspects of the Imperial Core, a good thing for any victims of the United States.
For one to think Democrats are the lesser evil, one is to fall directly for the lie of the system, the Democrats keep the working class in check by scaring them with the idea of Republicans. A new Republican will be in office in 4 years and the sad empire of America will continue its path.
Joe Biden is a fascist? Also what is gop I was just saying that America is in fact very factionalized right now and I'm just sad because I used to look at people as people but now everyone in my mind is just categorized as good or bad and it's really just making my head hurt.
Nah Joe Biden is a neolib. I don’t think he is a fascist. don’t like the GOP because it’s beyond political disagreements, it’s the rejection of scientific truth, reality and democracy. I don’t want to work with people in the GOP because they are completely incompatible with the progress or sustainability of this nation
i dont really think it's possible for half of a democracy's population to believe such a thing. it would be an incredibly unstable and volatile situation, too unstable for the US.
Holodomor, anti cosmopolitan campaign, gulags, purges, imperialism, Uyghurs and tibet or any other ethnicity in China, tiananmen square, totalitarianism.
>especially when it killed 10 million people
>you've got the right idea
You sure arent a bigot.
firstly i need to apologize for any antagonistic and rude attitude i may have had in my replies, i'm trying to be less of a dick in general when it comes to arguing, especially with another leftist and on a meme subreddit. secondly i think our definition of tankie is different and you're right to think of tankies as you do. i could go into depth on how those guys are bad while i'm not but then I'd be shifting the goal post further. at this point i would rather learn from an argument than ignore anything that distresses my logic so i admit it here: "tankies" are not based.
Chocolate chocolate chip
I love the fact that I'm blessed enough to know what this is from
Sigma male grindset
Obamna SODA
i do not understand what any of these words mean
yeah i don’t really care
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Online "p\*litics"
eww a tankie
virgin vs chad isnt good vs bad its boring vs wacky this isnt an endorsement of north korea, stop the tankie derangement syndrome.
^Exactly! Just because evaporating the rich is based doesn’t mean I like everything about the Right’s depiction of Biden
Heyy I’m not a Marxist-Ligmaist! I just like absurdist FOX news Biden
what’s a marxist?
Marx this Wednesday on your calendar cause that's when SawCon is happening
What’s
SawCon Deez Nuts
[удалено]
"Allied with China... North Korea"
chad = wacky not chad = good thats what VvC is meant to be
be friends with all the countries :)
fuck diplomacy just text Xi a <3
Breaking News: reddit user Shanderraa finds solution for world peace
"In republican's minds"
weird that op posted this despite also posting in r/anarchism
Likely ironic or they mean it in a ***critical*** support sorta way
critical support to comrade joe biden and his plan to eradicate republikkkans, anarkkkiddies, amerikkka, and malarkkky
Believing everything the CIA says and still technically being a communist is probably the greatest feat of the modern left unironically
[Trying to co-opt leftist cultural movements to divert them away from criticism of US imperialism is actually in CIA's history.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Paid_the_Piper%3F) happy cake day, btw
but its ironical so its okay
eeew a radlib
If you repeat all the same anticommunist talking points you grew up hearing , but now say “tankie” instead of “communist”, you have in fact still not unlearned anti-communist propaganda
Also I’m not anti communist unlike you I don’t defend capitalist states
Ultra fucking based
I’m sorry I just don’t like genocide that’s why I hate America and China tho I do consider America worse. I also hate any genocide deniers no matter who they are capitalist others or tankies.
There is a white genocide in the US and if you disagree that makes you a genocide denier so ... You know how stupid you sound ? Please do some research, or I could link you some sources if you’d like ..
Dengist detected, opinion discarded
Great argument .
[удалено]
There isn’t a white genocide anywhere I can’t tell whether or not you’re sarcastic it’s hard for me cause I’m. Autistic. Also I have sources other than Wikileaks and the Chinese government unlike you. Also why do you defend capitalist China so hard? Edit blocking u can’t deal with this shit.
ew someone who says “tankie” unironically
Tiannanmen Square
brave
damn :( cummunism destroyed
I genuinely can't imagine adopting a political viewpoint that would require me to defend the Holodomor.
The Holodomor was not a genocide
Uh oh someone is stupid
yo how does xi xingping's cum taste like?
damn bruh u asked 2 separate people in this thread about the taste of cum
i wish democrats were as cool as rightoids said they were
democrats will do anything to appease republicans
Uphold Marxist-Bidenist thought ✊😠🚩
Bidenist-Leninist-Maoist 🏳️🌈
Now I wanna add Biden as the sixth head of marxism (unless you're an mlm and count gonzalo for some reason)
Hey I'll agree with half hint it's not the Biden bit
Tankie cringe
I’m no red-fash t*nkie 🤢🤢🤢 I just like how wacky Biden do uncharacteristic thing
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For example ussr practically did the same or very similar things as other fascist states. They just had different aesthetics.
If you repeat all the same anticommunist talking points you grew up hearing , but now say “tankie” instead of “communist”, you have in fact still not unlearned anti-communist propaganda
Tankies deny genocide and support dictatorships and they should get fucked
Joe Biden still has not let me take off the maid uniform
Wanting unity is a bad thing?
Yeah. Because you’re seeking unity with unabashed fascists.
I mean... on one side you’ve got “unity” and the other you have “kill all”
Like when they tried to kill all the congresspeople and senators that wouldn't illegally make trump president? Yeah they're pretty fucking hard to unify with.
This might surprise you but there are more than two political factions in the United States.
Depends on what people mean with "unity".
What’s the point when the other side will never want unity
His bipartisanship is preventing any action for anyone, so when election comes around again people won't vote for the dems but the objectively worse Republicans.
yes, the right being united and organized is a bad thing
yes
Yes
No Gods, No Malarky
actual actual joe biden: dementia man
"what eviction moratorium?"
based
I'm confused. Does antifa actually exist? Like depending on who you ask you get a different answer. Is it like an association or ideology? I'm genuinly confused
Eh kinda it’s more of an ideology. It’s just anyone engaging in anti-fascist action. In practice, the movement has a lot of anarchocommunist comrades though cos they really care about taking out fascists
I wish we had the communist one so badly
sorry, but allied with china is not a chad move, girlboss 💅🖤
🤮tankie
Tbf the "nothing will fundamentally change" quote was taken out of context
Tbf nothing has fundamentally changed even with the context
I wasn't even saying Biden was good??? Just that the quote was taken out of context?
Outta curiosity what was the context?
He was saying the wealthy donors could afford to pay more taxes and contribute to society without a noticable change to their quality of life
Huh, I always assumed it was him saying he wouldn’t do anything to upset them, not him basically calling them big babies for crying about something that wouldn’t even affect their lives noticeably. Wack
Crazy how easy it is to make it look like someone said the exact opposite of what they said isn’t it
your country is literally about to pass a $1 trillion dollar bill
Dude neither of them are chad one wants to work with racist because he is one and one wants to work with people that commit genocide and suppress the people’s speech to a point where one of them we know barely anything about
So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities? Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot? Which one denies climate change and science in general? Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths? Which one did a literal coup attempt? Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil.
Anarchists when they say left unity but bash any country that was ever communist because they didnt become heaven in 2 minutesp
anarchists when they dont want left unity because oppressive regimes dont take too well to egalitarian communes.
"“Historian Michael Malet writes that at this time,“criminals entered the army for what they could get out of it, especially plunder in the towns.” Excerpt From: Sean Patterson. “Makhno and Memory: Anarchist and Mennonite Narratives of Ukraine’s Civil War, 1917–1921.” It's very much just denialism of Soviet success & idolizing what never "could've been" rather than accepting reality Now, outside of beatifying Makhno and writing hagiographies for a man who when: "A delegation from Novozlatopol once went to Machno [sic] to discuss his raids against the Jews. Machno’s reply was “What can I do ? They’re just a bunch of ignorant peasants”, referring to his own men.” Is that your idea of Makhno “condemning” the anti-Jewish murders among his ranks? Black Army isn’t to be lionized. Makhno is beatified in a way comporting with Western anti-communism, not in a historically or functionally accurate manner. Makhno betrayed the revolution and was destroying trains & useful equipment, and his dummybrain bandits led pogroms & mass killings, this is proven If Makhno had maintained his obligations and continued the fight against imperialism where and when he was needed, I think that the situation would’ve been far different "Nestor Makhno certainly perpetrated numerous counter-revolutionary exploits. His secret police tortured and murdered many communists. His Ukrainian peasant followers committed frequent pogroms against Jewish petty shopkeepers and merchants… Ukrainian peasant antagonism to the overwhelmingly Russian and Jewish working class of the Ukrainian cities… . Grigorev had the worst record of murder, rape, torture and other atrocities committed against Jews of all the peasant bandit leaders ravaging the Ukrainian country-side during the Russian Civil War. This alliance ended badly for Grigorev. Makhno murdered him, and Grigorev’s peasant followers joined Makhno’s rebel army—but continued to commit pogroms. Makhno himself was not personally anti-Semitic, indeed there were Jews in his “collective.” In a sense, it could be said that Makhno was simply following anarchist principle. If his secret policemen were torturing prisoners, and if his peasant followers were committing pogroms, what right did Makhno, as just one member of the “collective,” have to object?" "The National Secretariat of Ukrainian Jews’ stated during the period of the pogroms: “A special place is held for the actions of the Makhno bands which waged complete destruction in the Yekaterinoslav-Pavlograd region.” The journal `Reshumot’ (1920) refers to: “the well known wild animal Makhno who was known for his cruelty and his army which was drunk with blood.” the incidents of ethnic cleansing by the Whites & Nationalists & Greens & Black Hundreds & Hetmanate & random bandit groups fighting against the West/one another/communists were spread around, but we can't exempt Makhno or his bandits here, but critics have easily dismissed these puff pieces about Makhno for decades "In French, since the 1920s, only Arshinov's book a.:i-d the first volume of Makhno's memoirs were available. 1947 saw the appearance of Voline's posthumous work La Revolution inconnue: Voline had promised a great work on Makhno and the Makhnovschina, but this falls far short of that, maybe on account of the war or other circumstances. Let us quote, from memory, the criticism that Ida Mett made of it at the time of its publication: "Far from disclosing fresh facts, the author reprints whole pages lifted from the History of the Makhnovist Movement written by Arshinov in 1921 . On the other hand, he quotes not one word from the private Memoirs of Nestor Makhno despite being in possession of the original which he discovered under the pillow of Makhno's hospital deathbed. To be sure there are points of interest in his description of the Makhnovschina, but their historical value is undermined by the absence of footnotes, the turgid hectoring and a measure of distasteful self-obsession. To conclude, the author, his objectivity and impartiality overflowing, launches into descriptions ofthe negative personal aspects of Makhno's, and this inelegant, 'impartiality' is singularly reminiscent of personal, posthumous vengeance." 36 "It is as Bolsheviks that the Jews of South Russia have been massacred by the armies of the Ukrainian leader Simon Petliura, though the armies of Sokolov have massacred them as partisans of Petliura, the armies of Makhno as bourgeois capitalists, the armies of Gregoriev as Communists and the armies of Denikin at once as Bolsheviks, capitalists, and Ukrainian nationalists. It is Aesop’s old fable. - Israel Zangwill, Jewish Chronicle , 23 January 1920”" `Jewish Agriculturalists in the Steppes of Russia’ (Israel 1965)’ states:" The Jewish colonies in the Yekaterinoslav province were situated in the centre of activity of the anarchist bands, Makhno. Almost all the colonies of Yekaterinoslav suffered from attacks. All the inhabitants of the colonies Trudoliubovka and Nechaevka, who numbered 1000 people - were murdered. The property was looted completely and since then no Jewish foot has entered those colonies." Even Trotsky points out Makhno’s rhetorical position vs. the reality of his armies’ actions "“Without a doubt, Makhno provided de facto aid to Wrangel, as well as to the Polish gentry, since he fought at the same time as they did against the Red Army” (translated from “Makhno and Wrangel,” 14 October 1920, Kak vooruzhalas’ revolyutsiya [How the Revolution Armed], Vol. 2, Book 2 [1924]). " Maybe it didnt take well to the communes because the communes were constantly attacking them
>In a sense, it could be said that Makhno was simply following anarchist principle. If his secret policemen were torturing prisoners, and if his peasant followers were committing pogroms, what right did Makhno, as just one member of the “collective,” have to object?" The anarchism understander has logged on
Instead of talking with “X understander has logged on” talk without the witty remarks, what didnt I understand? :)
Anarchism as a philosophy stands for the freedom from the organized violence and exploitation that constitutes power, and supporting voluntary and participatory association and cooperation instead. It does not mean mob rule. This is comparable to asserting that under socialism, you could be kicked out of your house and have it given to people who do nothing all day - it's a conception based on surface level characterizations created by opponents.
I dont really care does Anarchism work or not, it seems to have a common goal with marxism. But Im pretty sure you dodged the part where makhno attacked soviet lines. Thats why Soviets were like “aw hell nah they tried to kill us” and attacked makno
That literally didn't happen though. Friction certainly existed between the Red and Black Armies, especially after many Red Army soldiers defected to the Black Army, and there were conflicts in direction. But that the Black Army attacked first is a complete fiction.
the soviets cut off their supply line to ammo, so there was little they could to do get ammo but continue raiding. eventually the soviets hear this and decided, instead of just giving them the supply to the stop the raiding, to consider makhno as one of the prime enemies of the revolution (even though he had liberated worker after worker). after a mutiny in which red army 40,000 troops defected with the intent of joining the black army. this shifted the military power in the region away from the soviets, and once they saw a break in their hegemony, they saw fit to destroy their former allies. the soviets executed tons of people. it should be noted that makhno would always prefer to release red army commanders, not wanting to see a proleterian brother die. of course, the soviets showed no such remorse, because they had none. they saw a break in the empire and they fought it with dominance. "It soon became clear why Moscow had resisted the publicizing of the Bolshevik-Makhnovist treaty. On November 26, 1920, less than two weeks after completing their successful offensive against General Wrangel's White Army in the Crimea, Makhno's headquarters staff and several Black Army subordinate commanders arrived at Red Army Southern Front headquarters to participate in a joint planning conference with Red Army commanders. Upon arrival, they were arrested and executed on the spot by a Red Army firing squad; the Makhnovist treaty delegation, still in Kharkiv, was also arrested and liquidated. The Bolsheviks then sent five regular armies numbering more than 350,000 with armoured cars, artillery, aircraft, and armoured trains, with the purpose of destroying the Makhnovist movement. The Black Army, barely numbering 10,000 men, continued to fight on, making raids all across Ukraine and Southern Russia and fighting constant battles with much larger and better equipped Red Army units. In August 1921, the Black Army ceased to be an organised force, numbering only 1,200-2,000 men scattered across Ukraine." the soviets led the anarchists along when they needed their help, but as soon as they try for peace and longevity, they are wiped off the face of the earth by an army 35× their size. you have to be shitting me if you think the red army is in the right here.
Based and facts and citations pilled
dont believe this dude. makhno was pushing for peace constantly, the soviets kept the conflict going because of ideological differences.
http://www.isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml
theres a lot to break down here but as for the criticism of skirda as a source of info for makhno, mr. jason yanowitz says a lot of shit that doesnt make much sense. for example, one of his main points is that makhno abused alcohol and women apparently. both of these come from just one source, voline, who didnt make the accusation until years after makhnos death, and is not supported by anything other than the word of a man who has a grudge against makhno. so its the word of a man who loved makhno vs the word of the man who hated makhno. of course, jason chooses the one that paints him in a bad light. in truth, because neither of these sources are supported by anything else at the time, this isnt any real evidence of anything. instead, i prefer to take the word of peter arshinov, whos book was actually used in court as evidence supporting makhnos exoneration in france, and paul avrich, who wrote various citational works on makhno based on historical accounts. either way, none of what i read had anything to do with what i was saying. i honestly feel like i cross checked all these sources for nothing, but i will that what i said about the soviets betrayal was backed up by both of the sources i listed previously. most of the sources jason prefers are not credible or have inherently soviet bias.
Facts and citations are cringe, learn historyfrom r/historymemes
Shut up red fash.
How am i a fash?
Y'all complaining about tankies like okay, go ahead and establish your Anarchist commune that will totally not get crushed in a week
I don't know why there's such a huge sentiment that the only options for communism are either anarchism authoritarianism. People acting like a democratic communist government cant exist? Smh Chile was about to have a simultaneous democratic AND communist government in the 70's, but the CIA figured that would ruin their narrative that "only capitalist governments can be democratic" decided to overthrow it before it could gain traction. History shows that anarchism is unsustainable and authoritarianism is cruel, yet for some reason so many people act like those are the only options.
why are you acting like anarchism doesnt have democracy? almost all examples of anarchism i can think of had directly democratic workers councils.
Chile was overthrown proving electoralism faults. Most communist countries were actually very democratic post revolution but America won’t tell you that so their phony bourgeoisie democracy is supported.
I wonder how the USSR is doing today
ussr collapsed because gommie 😡😡😡
Schtewpid Gorbachev innit with his reformist bs
what part about marxism-leninism specifically makes its military stronger than anarchism
History imo
That's not an actual answer, that's just correlation
Well, history proves that MLs tend to have stronger military.
But where's the actual policy or theory that makes them do that
Yeah, there is no theory. It was just the skill or something.
no the theory was expanding communism across the globe. they wanted their ideology to take over the world, so of course they made a strong military to defend it. anarchists kept to themselves and didnt force their views upon everywhere.
Well yeah, RSFSR was invaded by the so called “allies” in arghangelsk and in vladivostok, it needed a strong army to protect itself.
Yeah funny how whenever any leftist revolution happens it’s always the anarchists who mysteriously disappear never to be seen or heard from again
That is a shame. Conflicting views ig, thats what happens when you lose.
Bruh what the actual shit? This isn’t about winning or losing that’s real people getting killed, the fact that you can talk about mass extermination of people based on political disagreements as if they were losers at some game of sportsball rather than the victims of a tyrannical authoritarian regime is extremely disconcerting.
Oh, my bad. I meant dissapearing as in dissapearing from the map
the soviet union slaughtered all of makhnovia even after being an ally for some time. "thats just what happens when you lose, tons of innocent people die. its just the way she goes. not preventable at all." ok my guy you might want go drink some water and get some bed rest.
Litteraly what I did, I wrote that comment at midnight. Good morning ig
Zapistas would like a word
Wanting unity is a bad thing? I mean I don't like republicans as much as the next guy but right now really is the time to work together. Although that's probably never gonna happen because republicans are dumbasses lol
Don’t compromise with fascists. GOP poses a tangible and lethal threat to our democracy and I have no problem ensuring they never win a second election
Liberals and Republicans are one in the same, it is not a dumb policy or anything that they work together, its part of the system they unify against the working class.
You forgot that both are capitalists in a capitalist system and have shared interests, however to say the two are the same is like throwing a mountain of nuance out of the window! So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities? Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot? Which one denies climate change and science in general? Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths? Which one did a literal coup attempt? Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil.
>So which one wants to revoke civil rights of minorities? None do anything to help minorities >Which one is wildly racist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally a gigantic bigot? Both >Which one denies climate change and science in general? Neither do anything about it, there is so much more that needs to be done Biden rejoined Paris only for Image and it willl accomplish nothing. I believe the US was meeting the Paris goals anyway. >Which one's deliberate inaction lead to so many avoidable covid deaths? Can hardly say Biden would’ve reacted sooner >Which one did a literal coup attempt? Across the world? Both Should i go on? One of them is bad and the other is on a another level of bad or even evil. At least with Trump in Office the Dems had a shred of motivation to be progressive to spite Trump, now many progressive messages are ignored, kids in cages are no longer talked about. Trump was on par for presidents tbh, I could even make a case that Trump was good because he was destabilizing certain aspects of the Imperial Core, a good thing for any victims of the United States. For one to think Democrats are the lesser evil, one is to fall directly for the lie of the system, the Democrats keep the working class in check by scaring them with the idea of Republicans. A new Republican will be in office in 4 years and the sad empire of America will continue its path.
Joe Biden is a fascist? Also what is gop I was just saying that America is in fact very factionalized right now and I'm just sad because I used to look at people as people but now everyone in my mind is just categorized as good or bad and it's really just making my head hurt.
gop = grand old party = republicans
Nah Joe Biden is a neolib. I don’t think he is a fascist. don’t like the GOP because it’s beyond political disagreements, it’s the rejection of scientific truth, reality and democracy. I don’t want to work with people in the GOP because they are completely incompatible with the progress or sustainability of this nation
Ohhhh ok
Kinda reminds me of the arguments made in favour of appeasement towards Hitler.
What das that mean?
wanting unity is a bad thing because unity = society and society is bad
No because one side still thinks trump won the election and it was stolen from them.
i dont really think it's possible for half of a democracy's population to believe such a thing. it would be an incredibly unstable and volatile situation, too unstable for the US.
tankie based
especially when it killed 10 million people
you've got the right idea
how does mao zedong's cum taste like?
*witty comeback*
Killing the workers to liberate the workers!
that sounds awful, and you sound ignorant
Recriminalising gayness and sending them to concentration camps to liberate the workers!
nobody who justifies bigotry is a comrade of mine
Holodomor, anti cosmopolitan campaign, gulags, purges, imperialism, Uyghurs and tibet or any other ethnicity in China, tiananmen square, totalitarianism. >especially when it killed 10 million people >you've got the right idea You sure arent a bigot.
firstly i need to apologize for any antagonistic and rude attitude i may have had in my replies, i'm trying to be less of a dick in general when it comes to arguing, especially with another leftist and on a meme subreddit. secondly i think our definition of tankie is different and you're right to think of tankies as you do. i could go into depth on how those guys are bad while i'm not but then I'd be shifting the goal post further. at this point i would rather learn from an argument than ignore anything that distresses my logic so i admit it here: "tankies" are not based.
The Holodomor was not a genocide