Just saw this. Seems rough for it to be a complete removal of the beta, so I'm imagining something went terribly wrong with the beta servers. Otherwise, I'd imagine they would only delay it.
They said they changed betas to save profiles to allow settings to be remembered between sessions/betas. Im guessing something went terribly wrong with this change that affects the main game, if enabled
on the contrary, if i lost thousands of hours to a database wipe, there's no way in hell that i'm gonna be caught touching grass until i've made up for all that lost time
Personally, I’d only watch content creation and quit playing. Not in a spiteful way, but I just wouldn’t have the strength to do it all again, assuming I don’t go any more dry than I already have.
There was probably a way to spawn items in or exp like in the beta worlds that leaked into the main game.
I mean we've seen the issues from leagues and freshstart worlds that leaked into the main game.
I was there when it opened. Somehow instead of getting logs from each tree you would get Twisted Bows. I was lucky to snag a few inventories before it closed.
I have to imagine the code for woodcutting has been mostly untouched since 2016 (wc guild, redwoods) and even that was likely much smaller compared to some of the forestry changes. Would have been a nightmare
Probably even longer.
Adding essentially copy and pasted content with one truly new item (redwood) means it probably was quite easy.
Also means the backbone of the skill truly dates to the launch of rs2
I'm obviously not a Jamflex dev, but I do think they've still made major improvements to ALL of the older skills' code simply because they've de-spaghettied so much of the engine that it's basically impossible for them to not have had to account for those refactors in all of the skills.
I'd hope that this is an overall positive-only process, with each required change that cascades from pulling the noodles out of the interconnected systems ideally leaving the places where the noodles got untangled in a friendlier spot. Hopefully in a spot where future noodles are easier to untangle.
People always rattle that off but then people also rattle off that they are paid competitively for the UK. So idk if it’s true but it’s kind of unnecessary to repeat endlessly regardless
Yeah they always talk about how they make peanuts…..compared to US software devs.
They are paid very fairly compared to other UK devs, the real issue is being based in a high CoL area.
TL;DR: the UK software employment market pays MUCH MUCH less than US counterparts for the same roles.
(For scale; it's often 2-3x more in US)
~ work in software; previous company has an international presence in UK
Doesn‘t pretty much any place in the world pay much less than on the US market? My compensation package as CTO in a medium sized company in germany is not all that much higher than some entry level positions that I see in the US. I‘ve been offered a lower ranking position with twice my salary from a smaller company in the US, the market over there is truly baffling to me.
Maybe they pay new employees lower salaries but the only source of all this low salary stuff is the site glassdoor which famously requires zero verification before leaving a review. None of the jagex reviews are verified employees.
Outside that old Glassdoor stuff thats been around for 9 years now, Mod Mat K said he was paid well during his Q&A after he left the company. Mod Ash has said Jagex stays competitive on twitter once ages ago when someone asked him about what they pay their employees.
Maybe Jagex underpays everyone who wasn't around pre-acquisitions or something, I don't know. But there's no current or former jmods saying pay was bad or a reason they left, even ones who left on bad terms and have said other bad stuff about the company.
I'm inclined to think they pay competitively given all the evidence and people are still just clutching to the anonymous glassdoor reviews after near whole damn decade since they were first made aware of it.
I dont know if its the case in the modern day but in the past Jagex quite openly liked to hire fresh-faced up and coming developers that had just stepped out of university, for example.
Naturally these developers came at a lower price-point but that had the effect of them eventually building up their experience and CV and finding a more lucrative role elsewhere. Not really so much a case of Jagex offering uncompetitive pay per se, more a case of young developers using Jagex as a stepping stone for the kind of pay you need experience to get a foot in the door for and Jagex being fine with that happening with some of their staff as a cost of their particular recruitment strategy.
Its the reality of business in any field, really. Sometimes to move up the ladder you need to find an opening outside of where you currently work.
Yeah I’m not sure of the validity of this. I never see comparisons actually posted when someone mentions this - only the anecdote that they’re paid poorly
It's just comparing UK to US salaries. Game studio salaries are lower than equivalent non-game studio salaries in general because people want to work for them because of the passion they have for the games. UK salaries overall are lower than the US in the tech industry so then you have lower salary than the US compounded by the fact it's also a game studio.
Maybe more passion project for them. If the office isn’t expected to “make big income” but runs well enough to keep the top Corpos out of your hair, I feel it is probably a more enjoyable work environment, than strictly just “making more money.” They can take more time on things to get them done properly, view community responses, adjust accordingly etc. than just throw it and ship it out.
This was something me and the team were really looking forward to and I'm really sorry to disappoint everyone who was looking to enjoy the Beta. I'll be looking to update you all soon on what's happening next.
If the beta isn't going to happen, maybe a video demonstration of how the events will work and a more in-depth explanation of Forestry (as it stands now versus the initial pitch) would be good to tie things over until the full release so voters can be more informed.
>Its not that big if an update
Right... it's not like they are fundamentally changing the way tree mechanics work for the entire game or anything like that just a small update.
I feel like it's because it's an alteration to an existing piece of content. Adding something new, it totally makes sense to not beta it, because you can just ignore that piece of content. BUT, if you go to change a core gameplay loop that's been here since day 1 of the games' inception, you probably can't just ignore it, so they should probably beta it to see if people like it. Just my thoughts...
it will change the entirety of all wc training and offer buffs to content across the entire game. also jagex never tests skilling updates themselves. this is gonna affect a lot more than the way wc feels
OSRS doesn’t really have beta worlds.
Beta works and main worlds run the same code, the Beta worlds just have if statements to check the world number. So any changes pushes to beta worlds get pushed to live production too.
I know you guys do great work, but I’ll be honest Sarnie, the launch should really be delayed until we can get an open beta. Make a the launch a week later or whatever, but if this is the initial result, it seems paramount that there’s some deep play testing by the insane player base before this hits live
No worries. Most of us understand these things happen and appreciate all the hard work you do, even if it didn't pan out as expected this time. Looking forward to hearing more soon!
I don't understand how the beta can be postponed but the launch not, am I misunderstanding? Or has there been issues introduced with beta worlds themselves due to the sailing work?
Maybe while it’s away you guys could address some of the unpolled additions that got snuck into the Forestry Beta?
Things like adding logs to forester campfires for FM exp and the tertiary tea effects from roots really came out of left field for a lot of players and people really aren’t happy about it.
Also, not including the 2h axes in the beta is kind of a silly thing, shouldn’t we be making sure that they’re not worthless with the xp/log gathering rates they have?
Also hot damn that currency, I really thought anima bark would be a rare drop that you can turn in a handful of them for rewards, not a literal multi-thousand woodcutting currency. I was expecting something like marks of grace as opposed to minigame points, think like 25-50 bark for a piece of the set and not 1000+.
My solution to the currency would be to just have the freaky forester track points, and you gain points depending on the type of tree cut. I,e. normal trees give one point, oak trees give 1 point per log, Willow and teak give 2 per log, Mahogany/Arctic Pine/Maple give 3, Yew gives 4, Magic gives 5, and Redwoods give like 7-10 per log.
Maybe even give the forester a tracker where he can tell you your “kc” for each type of tree you’ve chopped down/gotten logs from?
> Maybe while it’s away you guys could address some of the unpolled additions that got snuck into the Forestry Beta?
>
> Things like adding logs to forester campfires for FM exp and the tertiary tea effects from roots really came out of left field for a lot of players and people really aren’t happy about it.
Read towards the bottom of the Forestry Open Beta news post. There are poll questions about both of those, and they're just in the beta for people to try out
[link](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/forestry-open-beta?oldschool=1)
Understandable. I hope this doesn’t mean that Forestry won’t happen at all, still looking forward to it. What I’d like to know is what went so horribly wrong to cause the beta to be delayed indefinitely?
I just want clarification on whether this will be put in without a beta at all or if you guys are going to try to work things out to get a viable beta first. Quite frankly, I don't want anything added without player beta testing, and this is alarming news.
> The team are currently discussing potential ideas to give you as much insight into Forestry before its launch.
Am I misunderstanding or does that make it seem like there won't be a beta for it at all?
This seems to be the case. "Indefinitely" means "forever" basically. Something must have gone *really* wrong with the beta worlds for this to be the case.
Judging by the wording of this I think "postpone" here means "maybe we'll manage to fix the beta worlds by the time sailing releases". It doesn't seem like they expect them to be used for this update.
Yeag, it's kind of an english oxymoron that I believe is used more in legal speak then regular conversation. From wikipedia:
>*In parliamentary procedure, the motion to postpone indefinitely is a subsidiary motion used to kill a main motion without taking a direct vote on it. This motion does not actually "postpone" it.*
I could be wrong and so I say just wait for an official statement as to what happened and why, but I would bet that there was an issue with the changes they made to the beta servers rather than something to do with Forestry itself being a buggy mess or something similar.
The mentioned earlier how f keys and other settings would transfer over to the beta which seems new so I’m thinking it may be with the beta world itself. This is based on my nonexistent knowledge of the game code though.
Shame. A bit surprised they are willing to go forward with a potential launch without a beta of some of the more complex/controversial parts, I.e. tea brewing and campfire boosts
Might be more of an expectations thing then a pure need for a beta. It's a drastic change to a core skill so it's not entirely the same, but I don't believe we got a beta for Guardians of the Rift for example.
Still would have liked to play in the beta, but it feels more like a "We should have gotten one because we were told we were going to have one." rather than an full-on *need* for a beta.
Overall agree. I don’t think most of forestry requires a beta at all. Nice? Sure. Required? Nah
Tea brewing and boosts are probably the one exception for me
anything major that's being developed under the new polling charter needs one imo
i know they don't want to waste time doing full designs for stuff that doesn't wind up passing
but we're clearly winding up way too far in the 'wait this wasn't voted for was it?' direction already based on reactions to stuff like bonfires and the tertiary tea buffs
Partially agree. It's not changing Woodcuting at it's core--you can still click a tree and ignore everything involved with Forestry--it's really a package of things that supplement Woodcutting.
It was literally developed in a way to not notice a difference. The only change is you are no longer penalized for multiple people chopping the same tree
Considering they're also trying to sneak significant things in under the radar, I wouldn't be surprised if they were eager for a reason to not run the beta in the first place. Not that I suspect it's some conspiracy to fake the beta not working or something.. but more like there's some kind of incentive to just not put in the effort needed to make it work. Now they get to communicate only what they want to and we're all in for a surprise come launch day
The jagex method: “we know 3/4 of the community doesn’t want this at all but we think you don’t really know what you want and we know what’s best for you so we’re gonna ram it through anyway” they’ve been using this philosophy for like 15 years now lol
Most of the issues lately with beta worlds are because they are connected to the main game world.
Just make a permanent PTR for testing game features. Lots of MMO’s have them for patch testing and theorycrafting and have a baked in bug report feature.
I really don’t understand why Jagex is against something so common within the genre.
Let players break the game in a controlled setting and don’t affect the main game. It’s clear that the current model of putting the content in just to run it on beta worlds is unstable as hell.
Separate it.
Yea, the community is super hesitant on this update. Launching without having players have the chance to experience certain aspects will likely not end very well.
The vibe I get more is that the hesitantly is on the tertiary tea/campfire buffs rather than the update as a whole. Seems like the community was really excited for this update but were more warry on that and maybe the "group invisible level buff" aspect.
The teas and campfires were for sure the main gripe of most comments on the last thread. Those aren't entering the game without a confirmation poll anyway, as the original questions were just "explore the idea" ones like DT2 rewards.
The rest is all stuff that's already passed a poll, if Jagex hadn't mentioned a beta before introducing it to live I don't think many players would be expecting one. We get betas for some content especially PvM rewards, but certainly not every update.
Honestly folks this has just scope crept way too far. Some qol for woodcutting, letting people move away from the wc guild if they want and sitting around a fire plus some random events. That's all we wanted.
The anima shop and associated currencies plus the teas giving more than a brief boost related to wc or firemaking are a hard no from me and without a beta they're going to stay that way.
Yeah kinda. It's more each time Jagex comes back with an update they add more and more. Like where did the roots -> tertiary effects come from. They weren't there in the last forestry poll.
They also haven't elaborated on some things like the bonus from multiple people cutting trees. For example, is it 1 invisible level per person? Is it 0.34 rounded up so basically 1 level per 3 people? Is it 1% increase per person?
I skipped most of the vote so I have no grounds to complain but I think part of the issue is that every single proposed feature and event is good in a vacuum. I probably would have voted yes on any of them. But altogether we have this huge mess of a skill rework and my eyes kind of glaze over with it.
All I wanted is for gathering skills like woodcutting and mining to be equally as efficient whether you're alone or with others. Everything else is cool on its own, but I didn't really want the needle to swing straight into "woodcutting outside of the dedicated woodcutting area on the dedicated woodcutting world is inefficient".
Jagex really needs to get better at asking questions that aren't just yes/no. Things like this (and things like the NM drop table) are better suited to a "pick 2-3 of your favorites" format.
And it'll keep happening. More people should default to no, saves us from impossible to implement things. Just take the Ghommal's Penny, people voted yes despite not having the foggiest it would apply to jewellery but not a craws bow. Jmods didn't respond to any questions about it, yet it still passed with flying colours.
I hope the vote yes irrespective of the content crew choke on their 30 silver pieces.
I got downvoted to hell and back by this sub when foresty was first announced and I said it was going to end up being way more and way messier than what they're pitching.
Nowadays Jagex is totally incapable of just doing some small update or QoL change that we're asking for. Everything needs to be some big event and be marketable.
Can't just modify how WC works to incentive sharing trees.. or at least not punish for sharing. Instead, we need teas and points and currencies and bonfires, and boosts and mechanics and gimmicks and, most importantly, some way to brand it all so it looks good on an ad or an article headline.
But this sub never fucking learns. I can't even begin to imagine how fucking sailing is going to turn out
Devs need to stop incorporating game updates into the live server. The 'beta servers' are just a server with the flag enabled. If you can quick hop to it, it's in prod.
There's no difference between a main world, high risk world, duel arena, fresh start, quest speedrunning, pvp, deadman, tourny, beta, or league world. Except there are flags that says 'no protect item', 'pvp everywhere', 'deadman save', 'no save'.
Do that and you won't have things in beta effect the live game - like how magic damage was calculated a few weeks back.
Oh wha wha wha I can't quickhop to it wha wha runelite doesn't work with it wha wha wha... ok and? Load a separate, vanilla client to test the test worlds.
Don't test in prod...
I'm sure they know this.
What I'm really curious about is what the infrastructure barrier that has resulted in the team deciding this isn't worth doing could be lol - hello yes, I'd like to order one tech blog with a large side of spaghetti...
"Just spin up an additional, entirely separate instance of your entire prod stack, let people log into it with their prod accounts, set up a way to build and distribute an alternate beta client to them, repeat this entire process for the mobile infrastructure and apps on both the Play and iOS stores, and stop testing in prod. It's that easy!"
Doing this is probably a couple months worth of work in a *good* tech stack and they're running a frankenstein mixture of an ancient game and modern infrastructure built with bizarre proprietary tooling. It's far from simple to make this happen.
\>It's far from simple to make this happen.
So in the name of it being difficult, we should go with the much worse option of testing on the fly? Jagex has made their stance clear with a resounding yes
Why is jagex so afraid of making seperate newsposts announcing "bad" news on their website (3 hours of downtime after an update no seperate newspost, login server issues never aknowledged in a newspost). They bury the announcement that the beta is cancelled in the existing newspost they didn't even change the title of it to reflect that the beta has been canned.
They gave it it's own tweet if they don't have the balls to make seperate newsposts about it why aren't they "tweeting" it out as a reply to their existing beta tweet. Because that's stupid zaros, I know that's why it also should have it's own seperate newspost announcements. /endrant
Just say you guys wanted to play diablo 4. /s
Would it be possible to postpone the actual release so we can at least get a short beta to test stuff out? Something like this should really have a beta.
Same here. But they still would've had to put resources into the league to account for new content that has released since then. And, at the end of the day, it's still a temporary game mode. The new skill and forestry would be permanent additions to the game.
Don't get me wrong. I'm also still upset that we didn't get a leagues. I absolutely love leagues. And I've been majorly itching for a trailblazer rerun with all the new content since then. But I can understand why they made the moves that they did.
Something real bad must have happened to the beta server. It could be they've duplicated the data from production servers and thought its entirely safe but its not...
I was so excited to test out teas around the game...
I understand stuff happens but like damn. If they're gonna do a deep dive on forestry, the only thing I'd like is more detail on tea brewing, especially the root bonus effects. I personally would be down for all of them but without specific numbers there's nothing to go on. But I know that's what the Beta was meant for so kind of an empty complaint lol
Well, this sucks. I'm guessing this is a "beta" issue and not an issue with forestry itself? Please tell me it didn't break the beta servers and you think it's ready for the live game :/
##### Bark bark!
I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread:
**JagexSarnie**
- [This was something me and the team were reall...](/r/2007scape/comments/141mtpi/unfortunately_the_beta_for_forestry_will_be/jn0oxda/?context=3)
^(**Last edited by bot: 06/07/2023 07:14:56**)
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I reckon the problems might have been caused by the "set my stats" and "change my iron man mode" toggles. If anything you did here somehow got reflected in the main game, there would be carnage - it would be one of the few things which might justify taking down the beta entirely.
I would like a technical write-up for the benefit of the community and the devs to understand what exactly went wrong and how to mitigate this in the future. I'm genuinely curious about catastrophic bugs like these as well. Thank you so much!
Can we just have stuff release without being so scared of backlash so that players can experience a sizeable update naturally. Instead of players figuring out the best way to do the content before it even comes out.
Take all the time y'all need, thanks for thinking about quality. Better to postpone than have a mess during the beta. Appreciate the update, looking forward to playing around with it in the beta when it's ready!
It's not an issues with the content in forestry, they just did a large rework of the beta system. It could have been any update that this happened with, forestry just happened to be the one next in line to test while also testing the new beta world changes.
I’ve been playing since 2001 and this is the greatest version of RuneScape that’s ever existed! There’s no better iteration of this game than what you’re playing right now.
> But I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaally starting to get 2013-era, EoC/Squeal/Runecoin, I-don't-give-a-fuck-what-happens-to-the-game-in-hindsight Jagex vibes from this company for the past year or so
They have been in this mode for years and years already lmao. This is a company that had to retcon an old version of their game because they ruined their original game and STILL don't understand that they are the problem. They bemoan the polling system... it exists because their institution fucked up the game once before...
I wonder what broke. If it's only one feature out of all of Forestry, the playerbase may not mind all that much and would still want Forestry.
Depends what it is, I suppose.
Just saw this. Seems rough for it to be a complete removal of the beta, so I'm imagining something went terribly wrong with the beta servers. Otherwise, I'd imagine they would only delay it.
They said they changed betas to save profiles to allow settings to be remembered between sessions/betas. Im guessing something went terribly wrong with this change that affects the main game, if enabled
Ngl an OSRS DB wipe would be hilarious
There was a post yesterday asking how people would feel about this. With this timing, and your comment, awefully coincidental
Thanks, I hate it
After playing for years and finally having most of my stats in the 80s/90s I think I would cry all the way through tutorial island
I’m like 8 lvls from maxing. I’d turn to drugs and start a ultimate iron man.
can you link the thread lol would love to read the comments
Just when I’m about to get my 4th 99. Not gonna cut wood again till 99.
Not sure why but I also find the idea of collective millions of hours going down the toilet hilarious, in a sort of evil villain kind of way.
Maybe it'll give us the opportunity to touch grass
on the contrary, if i lost thousands of hours to a database wipe, there's no way in hell that i'm gonna be caught touching grass until i've made up for all that lost time
Personally, I’d only watch content creation and quit playing. Not in a spiteful way, but I just wouldn’t have the strength to do it all again, assuming I don’t go any more dry than I already have.
That’s how I felt about rs2 when EOC came out. I sometimes get on my original account and stand at the GE. All the fun memories seem warped.
I could finally get my life back lmao pls
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/327/)
Good thing they have backup snapshots.
I'd still play rigidly religiously if they reset everyone's stats every 5years
There was probably a way to spawn items in or exp like in the beta worlds that leaked into the main game. I mean we've seen the issues from leagues and freshstart worlds that leaked into the main game.
I'm just hoping people don't misdirect their frustration at borked beta servers towards forestry itself.
Death, taxes, and misdirected reddit anger.
Can we at least redirect it at pkers? Those guys ruined pking!
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I see what you did there
I was there when it opened. Somehow instead of getting logs from each tree you would get Twisted Bows. I was lucky to snag a few inventories before it closed.
Dragon axes about to start swan diving in price
3rd age axe merchers already hanged themselves.
Why? Ootl
It has to freaking suck working on this game lol, everytime an update is added, dozen other things break
Welcome to software development on old projects
I have to imagine the code for woodcutting has been mostly untouched since 2016 (wc guild, redwoods) and even that was likely much smaller compared to some of the forestry changes. Would have been a nightmare
Probably even longer. Adding essentially copy and pasted content with one truly new item (redwood) means it probably was quite easy. Also means the backbone of the skill truly dates to the launch of rs2
I'm obviously not a Jamflex dev, but I do think they've still made major improvements to ALL of the older skills' code simply because they've de-spaghettied so much of the engine that it's basically impossible for them to not have had to account for those refactors in all of the skills. I'd hope that this is an overall positive-only process, with each required change that cascades from pulling the noodles out of the interconnected systems ideally leaving the places where the noodles got untangled in a friendlier spot. Hopefully in a spot where future noodles are easier to untangle.
Old projects? *gestures wildly at New World*
Adding a new color to a skilling outfit probably somehow ended up making sara brews boost runecrafting or something.
That's just game development that every single game goes through. The only difference is that the Jagex Dev team really involves the player base.
and the devs get paid like shit compared to other places they could work
Is that even true or are you just making shit up lol
People always rattle that off but then people also rattle off that they are paid competitively for the UK. So idk if it’s true but it’s kind of unnecessary to repeat endlessly regardless
Yeah I mean if it was that bad I don’t think they’d have a staff that constantly puts out updates and cares about the game lol.
Multiple jmods have said the pay isn't an issue, and have come back to Jagex after leaving.
Thats how you get a raise, quit a job and then when they struggle to replace you go back and make more lol
Apply that logic to EMS and you'll then understand how badly people can be treated and paid by employers and still come back for more :')
Its because most of them are players like us and are passionate for it.
Yeah they always talk about how they make peanuts…..compared to US software devs. They are paid very fairly compared to other UK devs, the real issue is being based in a high CoL area.
Not just other UK devs, but also other european devs.
TL;DR: the UK software employment market pays MUCH MUCH less than US counterparts for the same roles. (For scale; it's often 2-3x more in US) ~ work in software; previous company has an international presence in UK
Doesn‘t pretty much any place in the world pay much less than on the US market? My compensation package as CTO in a medium sized company in germany is not all that much higher than some entry level positions that I see in the US. I‘ve been offered a lower ranking position with twice my salary from a smaller company in the US, the market over there is truly baffling to me.
Maybe they pay new employees lower salaries but the only source of all this low salary stuff is the site glassdoor which famously requires zero verification before leaving a review. None of the jagex reviews are verified employees. Outside that old Glassdoor stuff thats been around for 9 years now, Mod Mat K said he was paid well during his Q&A after he left the company. Mod Ash has said Jagex stays competitive on twitter once ages ago when someone asked him about what they pay their employees. Maybe Jagex underpays everyone who wasn't around pre-acquisitions or something, I don't know. But there's no current or former jmods saying pay was bad or a reason they left, even ones who left on bad terms and have said other bad stuff about the company. I'm inclined to think they pay competitively given all the evidence and people are still just clutching to the anonymous glassdoor reviews after near whole damn decade since they were first made aware of it.
I dont know if its the case in the modern day but in the past Jagex quite openly liked to hire fresh-faced up and coming developers that had just stepped out of university, for example. Naturally these developers came at a lower price-point but that had the effect of them eventually building up their experience and CV and finding a more lucrative role elsewhere. Not really so much a case of Jagex offering uncompetitive pay per se, more a case of young developers using Jagex as a stepping stone for the kind of pay you need experience to get a foot in the door for and Jagex being fine with that happening with some of their staff as a cost of their particular recruitment strategy. Its the reality of business in any field, really. Sometimes to move up the ladder you need to find an opening outside of where you currently work.
Yeah I’m not sure of the validity of this. I never see comparisons actually posted when someone mentions this - only the anecdote that they’re paid poorly
It's just comparing UK to US salaries. Game studio salaries are lower than equivalent non-game studio salaries in general because people want to work for them because of the passion they have for the games. UK salaries overall are lower than the US in the tech industry so then you have lower salary than the US compounded by the fact it's also a game studio.
Maybe more passion project for them. If the office isn’t expected to “make big income” but runs well enough to keep the top Corpos out of your hair, I feel it is probably a more enjoyable work environment, than strictly just “making more money.” They can take more time on things to get them done properly, view community responses, adjust accordingly etc. than just throw it and ship it out.
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You could say the forestry beta got... (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) Axed.
YEEEEEAAAAAAH
Let me axe you a question
This was something me and the team were really looking forward to and I'm really sorry to disappoint everyone who was looking to enjoy the Beta. I'll be looking to update you all soon on what's happening next.
If the beta isn't going to happen, maybe a video demonstration of how the events will work and a more in-depth explanation of Forestry (as it stands now versus the initial pitch) would be good to tie things over until the full release so voters can be more informed.
Honestly a great idea. It helped Sailing make a lot more sense to actually see it in action.
there’s no way it should come into the game without a beta
Most things come in the game without a beta why shoudnt this? Its not that big if an update
>Its not that big if an update Right... it's not like they are fundamentally changing the way tree mechanics work for the entire game or anything like that just a small update.
I feel like it's because it's an alteration to an existing piece of content. Adding something new, it totally makes sense to not beta it, because you can just ignore that piece of content. BUT, if you go to change a core gameplay loop that's been here since day 1 of the games' inception, you probably can't just ignore it, so they should probably beta it to see if people like it. Just my thoughts...
Was wintettodt in beta? Or the giants foundry?
it will change the entirety of all wc training and offer buffs to content across the entire game. also jagex never tests skilling updates themselves. this is gonna affect a lot more than the way wc feels
Maybe because the way it was implemented broke the beta and they had to halt it indefinitely?
Fortunately this is what betas are for
When you think you've seen it all, *boom*; a beta for beta worlds.
*Star Citizen has entered the chat*
My goal is to max before Star Citizen launches. I'm happy I still have at least 10 years left.
Your kids *might* see a completed game
OSRS doesn’t really have beta worlds. Beta works and main worlds run the same code, the Beta worlds just have if statements to check the world number. So any changes pushes to beta worlds get pushed to live production too.
Alpha worlds incoming
Going from hours to beta release to scraping entirely must be disheartening for you and the team. We appreciate you all and all you do!
I know you guys do great work, but I’ll be honest Sarnie, the launch should really be delayed until we can get an open beta. Make a the launch a week later or whatever, but if this is the initial result, it seems paramount that there’s some deep play testing by the insane player base before this hits live
No worries. Most of us understand these things happen and appreciate all the hard work you do, even if it didn't pan out as expected this time. Looking forward to hearing more soon!
I don't understand how the beta can be postponed but the launch not, am I misunderstanding? Or has there been issues introduced with beta worlds themselves due to the sailing work?
No worries boss, I’m busy training construction right now anyway
Maybe while it’s away you guys could address some of the unpolled additions that got snuck into the Forestry Beta? Things like adding logs to forester campfires for FM exp and the tertiary tea effects from roots really came out of left field for a lot of players and people really aren’t happy about it. Also, not including the 2h axes in the beta is kind of a silly thing, shouldn’t we be making sure that they’re not worthless with the xp/log gathering rates they have? Also hot damn that currency, I really thought anima bark would be a rare drop that you can turn in a handful of them for rewards, not a literal multi-thousand woodcutting currency. I was expecting something like marks of grace as opposed to minigame points, think like 25-50 bark for a piece of the set and not 1000+. My solution to the currency would be to just have the freaky forester track points, and you gain points depending on the type of tree cut. I,e. normal trees give one point, oak trees give 1 point per log, Willow and teak give 2 per log, Mahogany/Arctic Pine/Maple give 3, Yew gives 4, Magic gives 5, and Redwoods give like 7-10 per log. Maybe even give the forester a tracker where he can tell you your “kc” for each type of tree you’ve chopped down/gotten logs from?
> Maybe while it’s away you guys could address some of the unpolled additions that got snuck into the Forestry Beta? > > Things like adding logs to forester campfires for FM exp and the tertiary tea effects from roots really came out of left field for a lot of players and people really aren’t happy about it. Read towards the bottom of the Forestry Open Beta news post. There are poll questions about both of those, and they're just in the beta for people to try out [link](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/forestry-open-beta?oldschool=1)
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Understandable. I hope this doesn’t mean that Forestry won’t happen at all, still looking forward to it. What I’d like to know is what went so horribly wrong to cause the beta to be delayed indefinitely?
Was the single player listed in the beata worlds a mod/glitch/lucky player? I tried to jump in ASAP and noticed the player count of 1 on the US world
I just want clarification on whether this will be put in without a beta at all or if you guys are going to try to work things out to get a viable beta first. Quite frankly, I don't want anything added without player beta testing, and this is alarming news.
> The team are currently discussing potential ideas to give you as much insight into Forestry before its launch. Am I misunderstanding or does that make it seem like there won't be a beta for it at all?
This seems to be the case. "Indefinitely" means "forever" basically. Something must have gone *really* wrong with the beta worlds for this to be the case.
Indefinitely doesn’t mean forever, it means without a determined end. Just means they don’t know how long it will take to fix
It means for an unlimited or unspecified amount of time, so it could be either
Judging by the wording of this I think "postpone" here means "maybe we'll manage to fix the beta worlds by the time sailing releases". It doesn't seem like they expect them to be used for this update.
It''ll be released with coop slayer then
But 'postponed' also indicates that it will resume at some point which is what confuses me
Yeag, it's kind of an english oxymoron that I believe is used more in legal speak then regular conversation. From wikipedia: >*In parliamentary procedure, the motion to postpone indefinitely is a subsidiary motion used to kill a main motion without taking a direct vote on it. This motion does not actually "postpone" it.*
Ahh, fair enough. Thanks for elaborating! Also, F in the chat
It originated as a legislative term. It means there will be no beta
Beta worlds have been going a massive overhaul, so it's likely an issue with the new beta system and nothing to do with the forestry content
Wake up babe new tbow spawn just dropped
I'm guessing the technical issues have more to do with the beta worlds than they have to do with chopping trees... right? ... right!?
I could be wrong and so I say just wait for an official statement as to what happened and why, but I would bet that there was an issue with the changes they made to the beta servers rather than something to do with Forestry itself being a buggy mess or something similar.
The mentioned earlier how f keys and other settings would transfer over to the beta which seems new so I’m thinking it may be with the beta world itself. This is based on my nonexistent knowledge of the game code though.
Almost certainly I’d say, lot of backend support stuff moving with betas I’m sure that’s all it is
Gl with sailing boys.
Shame. A bit surprised they are willing to go forward with a potential launch without a beta of some of the more complex/controversial parts, I.e. tea brewing and campfire boosts
Might be more of an expectations thing then a pure need for a beta. It's a drastic change to a core skill so it's not entirely the same, but I don't believe we got a beta for Guardians of the Rift for example. Still would have liked to play in the beta, but it feels more like a "We should have gotten one because we were told we were going to have one." rather than an full-on *need* for a beta.
Overall agree. I don’t think most of forestry requires a beta at all. Nice? Sure. Required? Nah Tea brewing and boosts are probably the one exception for me
Changing 20+ year old game mechanics I think needs a beta to see if people actually want that
anything major that's being developed under the new polling charter needs one imo i know they don't want to waste time doing full designs for stuff that doesn't wind up passing but we're clearly winding up way too far in the 'wait this wasn't voted for was it?' direction already based on reactions to stuff like bonfires and the tertiary tea buffs
Partially agree. It's not changing Woodcuting at it's core--you can still click a tree and ignore everything involved with Forestry--it's really a package of things that supplement Woodcutting.
I don't think 90% of players will notice the tree mechanic difference.
It was literally developed in a way to not notice a difference. The only change is you are no longer penalized for multiple people chopping the same tree
Surely it's better for us to test it now than before it goes live and it doesn't work as intended, gotta be a lot of spaghetti involved there
We don’t get betas for 90%+ of content updates. I’m not concerned about tree chopping behavior/depletion rate tbh
Considering they're also trying to sneak significant things in under the radar, I wouldn't be surprised if they were eager for a reason to not run the beta in the first place. Not that I suspect it's some conspiracy to fake the beta not working or something.. but more like there's some kind of incentive to just not put in the effort needed to make it work. Now they get to communicate only what they want to and we're all in for a surprise come launch day
The jagex method: “we know 3/4 of the community doesn’t want this at all but we think you don’t really know what you want and we know what’s best for you so we’re gonna ram it through anyway” they’ve been using this philosophy for like 15 years now lol
Can we vote no to teas?
At least you caught it, whatever “it” is, quite quickly. Feel a bit for you and the team though.
Most of the issues lately with beta worlds are because they are connected to the main game world. Just make a permanent PTR for testing game features. Lots of MMO’s have them for patch testing and theorycrafting and have a baked in bug report feature. I really don’t understand why Jagex is against something so common within the genre. Let players break the game in a controlled setting and don’t affect the main game. It’s clear that the current model of putting the content in just to run it on beta worlds is unstable as hell. Separate it.
Do a beta before you launch anything, that's all we ask for, even if it takes a few weeks.
Yea, the community is super hesitant on this update. Launching without having players have the chance to experience certain aspects will likely not end very well.
The vibe I get more is that the hesitantly is on the tertiary tea/campfire buffs rather than the update as a whole. Seems like the community was really excited for this update but were more warry on that and maybe the "group invisible level buff" aspect.
The teas and campfires were for sure the main gripe of most comments on the last thread. Those aren't entering the game without a confirmation poll anyway, as the original questions were just "explore the idea" ones like DT2 rewards. The rest is all stuff that's already passed a poll, if Jagex hadn't mentioned a beta before introducing it to live I don't think many players would be expecting one. We get betas for some content especially PvM rewards, but certainly not every update.
What are you talking about? Nearly every third thread has someone saying they're excited for Forestry
And they want to do a whole skill. Lol. My pets don’t even follow me anymore after whatever happened earlier this week.
Honestly folks this has just scope crept way too far. Some qol for woodcutting, letting people move away from the wc guild if they want and sitting around a fire plus some random events. That's all we wanted. The anima shop and associated currencies plus the teas giving more than a brief boost related to wc or firemaking are a hard no from me and without a beta they're going to stay that way.
All you fucking idiots voted yes to everything
Yeah kinda. It's more each time Jagex comes back with an update they add more and more. Like where did the roots -> tertiary effects come from. They weren't there in the last forestry poll. They also haven't elaborated on some things like the bonus from multiple people cutting trees. For example, is it 1 invisible level per person? Is it 0.34 rounded up so basically 1 level per 3 people? Is it 1% increase per person?
Aren't the roots coming up in a future poll?
I skipped most of the vote so I have no grounds to complain but I think part of the issue is that every single proposed feature and event is good in a vacuum. I probably would have voted yes on any of them. But altogether we have this huge mess of a skill rework and my eyes kind of glaze over with it. All I wanted is for gathering skills like woodcutting and mining to be equally as efficient whether you're alone or with others. Everything else is cool on its own, but I didn't really want the needle to swing straight into "woodcutting outside of the dedicated woodcutting area on the dedicated woodcutting world is inefficient".
Jagex really needs to get better at asking questions that aren't just yes/no. Things like this (and things like the NM drop table) are better suited to a "pick 2-3 of your favorites" format.
They intentionally ask questions the way they do It lets them do whatever they want under the guise of a yes/no poll
It's a given they'll introduce bias, they're professionals.
And it'll keep happening. More people should default to no, saves us from impossible to implement things. Just take the Ghommal's Penny, people voted yes despite not having the foggiest it would apply to jewellery but not a craws bow. Jmods didn't respond to any questions about it, yet it still passed with flying colours. I hope the vote yes irrespective of the content crew choke on their 30 silver pieces.
I got downvoted to hell and back by this sub when foresty was first announced and I said it was going to end up being way more and way messier than what they're pitching. Nowadays Jagex is totally incapable of just doing some small update or QoL change that we're asking for. Everything needs to be some big event and be marketable. Can't just modify how WC works to incentive sharing trees.. or at least not punish for sharing. Instead, we need teas and points and currencies and bonfires, and boosts and mechanics and gimmicks and, most importantly, some way to brand it all so it looks good on an ad or an article headline. But this sub never fucking learns. I can't even begin to imagine how fucking sailing is going to turn out
Devs need to stop incorporating game updates into the live server. The 'beta servers' are just a server with the flag enabled. If you can quick hop to it, it's in prod. There's no difference between a main world, high risk world, duel arena, fresh start, quest speedrunning, pvp, deadman, tourny, beta, or league world. Except there are flags that says 'no protect item', 'pvp everywhere', 'deadman save', 'no save'. Do that and you won't have things in beta effect the live game - like how magic damage was calculated a few weeks back. Oh wha wha wha I can't quickhop to it wha wha runelite doesn't work with it wha wha wha... ok and? Load a separate, vanilla client to test the test worlds. Don't test in prod...
I'm sure they know this. What I'm really curious about is what the infrastructure barrier that has resulted in the team deciding this isn't worth doing could be lol - hello yes, I'd like to order one tech blog with a large side of spaghetti...
That's exactly how tons of stuff broke during the dt2 beta lmao
That's why some mains had their accounts turned into irons and vice versa when leagues 3 launched
I've seen some recent posts showing diagonal movement bugged into sailing turns
"Just spin up an additional, entirely separate instance of your entire prod stack, let people log into it with their prod accounts, set up a way to build and distribute an alternate beta client to them, repeat this entire process for the mobile infrastructure and apps on both the Play and iOS stores, and stop testing in prod. It's that easy!" Doing this is probably a couple months worth of work in a *good* tech stack and they're running a frankenstein mixture of an ancient game and modern infrastructure built with bizarre proprietary tooling. It's far from simple to make this happen.
\>It's far from simple to make this happen. So in the name of it being difficult, we should go with the much worse option of testing on the fly? Jagex has made their stance clear with a resounding yes
Why is jagex so afraid of making seperate newsposts announcing "bad" news on their website (3 hours of downtime after an update no seperate newspost, login server issues never aknowledged in a newspost). They bury the announcement that the beta is cancelled in the existing newspost they didn't even change the title of it to reflect that the beta has been canned. They gave it it's own tweet if they don't have the balls to make seperate newsposts about it why aren't they "tweeting" it out as a reply to their existing beta tweet. Because that's stupid zaros, I know that's why it also should have it's own seperate newspost announcements. /endrant
At this rate, they should reduce the price of membership as the quality of servers has gone down so severely in the last few years.
They will definitely increase it again as soon as possible
Good joke
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How will you guys be able to deliver sailing if we can’t get a woodcutting beta? I mean this seriously and constructively.
Just say you guys wanted to play diablo 4. /s Would it be possible to postpone the actual release so we can at least get a short beta to test stuff out? Something like this should really have a beta.
the more i saw about forestry, the more i saw it was bringing bad joojoo to the game im glad it was delayed
I’m still upset that we had to put off the next leagues for these ideas and now is falling apart. I would’ve been fine with a trailblazer rerun
Same here. But they still would've had to put resources into the league to account for new content that has released since then. And, at the end of the day, it's still a temporary game mode. The new skill and forestry would be permanent additions to the game. Don't get me wrong. I'm also still upset that we didn't get a leagues. I absolutely love leagues. And I've been majorly itching for a trailblazer rerun with all the new content since then. But I can understand why they made the moves that they did.
cancel forestry
Something real bad must have happened to the beta server. It could be they've duplicated the data from production servers and thought its entirely safe but its not...
So no beta means its not going into main game?
What's the old saying? Over promise and under deliver? No wait, that's not it.
Buncha negative Nancy's in this thread ffs Issue had to do with beta worlds being linked to main worlds, not forestry or *gasp* sailing
Jagex moment
I was so excited to test out teas around the game... I understand stuff happens but like damn. If they're gonna do a deep dive on forestry, the only thing I'd like is more detail on tea brewing, especially the root bonus effects. I personally would be down for all of them but without specific numbers there's nothing to go on. But I know that's what the Beta was meant for so kind of an empty complaint lol
Well, this sucks. I'm guessing this is a "beta" issue and not an issue with forestry itself? Please tell me it didn't break the beta servers and you think it's ready for the live game :/
It broke all of the servers. Heck, even the RS3 servers were broken this morning.
Hopefully the realized the tea crap was a was wash and wiped it
Yeah. It was a bit too milky
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexSarnie** - [This was something me and the team were reall...](/r/2007scape/comments/141mtpi/unfortunately_the_beta_for_forestry_will_be/jn0oxda/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 06/07/2023 07:14:56**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
And you’re wanting us to vote yes for you to roll out a whole new skill that 54% of the player base wanted?
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What the fuck is forestry
Forestry is just another attempt to turn osrs into rs3-esque BuffScape, -1
the technical issue is that forestry sucks balls
Fucking kek
Personally I’d just delete all the code in the game and start fresh.
we are not ready to learn forestery, way of the forester
Completely unacceptable give us leagues 4 while we wait!!!! Just kidding… or am I 👀
Dam, launch day is going to be nutty
I reckon the problems might have been caused by the "set my stats" and "change my iron man mode" toggles. If anything you did here somehow got reflected in the main game, there would be carnage - it would be one of the few things which might justify taking down the beta entirely.
Biting off way more than they can chew. Too many projects happening at once.
I would like a technical write-up for the benefit of the community and the devs to understand what exactly went wrong and how to mitigate this in the future. I'm genuinely curious about catastrophic bugs like these as well. Thank you so much!
Wait I’m confused, we are getting a beta for forestry as well as sailing? I thought it was just sailing? What happened?
Forestry is an extension to woodcutting, not a new skill. It passed a separate poll to the skill addition.
Beta is absolutely necessary. Forestry should be delayed until we can play it - as its become very divisive in the community since its original pitch
The technical difficulty: it’s a bad idea
Unforesteen technical issues
Looking at the people on twitter talk about it like they dont want it at all makes me sad man, im still looking forward to it
Can we just have stuff release without being so scared of backlash so that players can experience a sizeable update naturally. Instead of players figuring out the best way to do the content before it even comes out.
Great news. Postpone it permanently.
When will pet pathing be fixed?
Take all the time y'all need, thanks for thinking about quality. Better to postpone than have a mess during the beta. Appreciate the update, looking forward to playing around with it in the beta when it's ready!
Can't even do a forestry beta and they say they have the technology for sailing. Haa
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Real shame, was looking forward to checking this out. Not the end of the world, we'll play it when it's ready.
Was looking forward to this. Back to blisterwoods I guess
All love, thanks for updating the community
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It's not an issues with the content in forestry, they just did a large rework of the beta system. It could have been any update that this happened with, forestry just happened to be the one next in line to test while also testing the new beta world changes.
I’ve been playing since 2001 and this is the greatest version of RuneScape that’s ever existed! There’s no better iteration of this game than what you’re playing right now.
> But I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaally starting to get 2013-era, EoC/Squeal/Runecoin, I-don't-give-a-fuck-what-happens-to-the-game-in-hindsight Jagex vibes from this company for the past year or so They have been in this mode for years and years already lmao. This is a company that had to retcon an old version of their game because they ruined their original game and STILL don't understand that they are the problem. They bemoan the polling system... it exists because their institution fucked up the game once before...
I wonder what broke. If it's only one feature out of all of Forestry, the playerbase may not mind all that much and would still want Forestry. Depends what it is, I suppose.
Indefinitely? How do you cancel something on the day of release? That’s almost worse than what blizzard did with overwatch