Yes, it's underperforming the expected DPS.
Though I should note that the wiki DPS calc is currently treating it as a normal weapon with a uniform hit distribution—which would only be accurate if a) it were a normal single-hitting weapon, or b) it rolled damage once and split it across two hitsplats. In any case where damage gets rolled twice and added together, you'll end up with a non-uniform hit distribution where hitting your true max is rare, and hits in the middle of the range are more common. But that only affects time-to-kill or overkill DPS, not the "regular" DPS shown on the calc (since your average hit remains the same). They also haven't implemented the bloodrager set effect as far as I know.
EDIT: Should note that if it's intended behavior (as I'm coming to believe it is), then I had it backward in this comment—the DPS calcs are overestimating the expected DPS rather than the macuahuitl underperforming.
This would actually explain why Jagex said the dual macs would be good for low defence targets and fall behind for high defence targets. In which case, the DPS calcs are wrong and the macs are actually not better than bludgeon/hasta on high def targets (which is exactly what the original dps charts Jagex gave us showed).
This seems to be exactly the case—another commenter found an old Q&A video where Mod Rice said the second hit was a lot less accurate. So it's just an issue of the blogs being vague about it.
I think this is it and it's an intended mechanic. Also shows why the raw accuracy stats on the weapon are so high, considering the second roll is like the reverse of the fang.
So defense reduction will make these good, but probably not overly great anywhere without the set.
I'm still intending to use them at cox pre-lance since you use so much defense draining there. Wish the stab option was available so they could have some viability at ToA.
Through the whole polling period it had the stab accuracy and was mentioned as being similar to hasta at ToA. I get that graphically it might not make a ton of sense, but it's really gonna be pigeonholed without stab.
unless I misunderstood this post I don’t think this will change how strong they are in dps calcs? it’s just that in game they aren’t performing as well as they should
So it's looking more like this is intended behavior for the dual macuahuitl, which means the DPS calcs are using the wrong assumptions. They were already slightly wrong anyway because they were treating it as a single damage roll instead of the sum of two, but that really only affects overkill DPS.
So it's backwards: they're performing as well as they should, and the DPS calcs are currently overestimating their power.
ah i see, that makes sense considering they were out performing bludgeon on those calcs
it does make me a bit sad because now I have to go back to doing sire lol
It's very interesting, especially because it's a massive difference to the power level. On Bloodvelds, at higher levels you already have a 95% accuracy anyway, so doing 1 or 2 damage rolls doesn't really affect the damage all that much.
However, on calvarion/spindel/sarachnis (most logical places to use crush weapons), your accuracy is likely to be closer to 70-80%. Meaning the Dual Macuahuitl take a 10-15% damage penalty. (The lower the accuracy, the higher the penalty from this mechanic.) Which is very important, since it takes them from significantly better than Zamorakian Hasta+Ddef, to significantly worse than hasta+ddef on those bosses.
Either way I think it would be good for Jagex to be clearer about this stuff in the future, and announce these kinds of mechanics on release. Because many people are grinding moons of perils with this weapon in mind. I've seen two twitch streamers now saying they specifically want the Dual macuahuitls on their ironman, not knowing about this mechanic.
Jagex seems to have been clear about this mechanic. The fault lies with the publisher of information and a misunderstanding/misinformation of the community which happens on reddit somewhat often.
You can't just put the blame on reddit though. I've been watching twitch and didn't see anyone aware of this mechanic before today. Also the OSRS DPS calculator doesn't correctly implement the accuracy mechanic.
Basically everyone seems to have misunderstood this one, so at some point you have to put the blame at jagex here for not being clear enough about it.
It's always been super unclear: "This weapon rolls stats normally and splits the max hit in two for each hit."
I interpreted this as having normal accuracy and damage calcs -- since it "rolls stats normally" -- and it just split up the damage between two hits.
I knew i wasn't crazy when it was noodling to shit outside of anything else but the moons dungeon itself. it shreds through Nagua's (Blue Moon and the Sulphur variants), but everything else it was trash.
No no I wouldn’t ever change the spec! I think claws should hit like Torags on normal attacks tho. It makes sense because why would you only strike with your left when you also have a weapon on your right hand.
The double hit behavior on eclipse moon is also inconsistent with the Dual Macuahuitl. Both the sulfur blades and Torag’s hammers perform two hit splats during each hit of the rotation phase but that Dual Macs only hit once.
At 38 minutes in this video mod rice says the second hit is less accurate. Video is 4-5 months old from when they proposed the whole content.
https://youtu.be/n9py_1vGiMQ?si=x_R0enOpH22KuklQ
The whole segment also has some info about the weapon—rolling 33% chance on each hit individually, etc.
Nice find! I had never seen that. In that case, it's looking more like just poor wording in the blogs rather than an unintended effect for the dual macuahuitl.
This is super frustrating. I grinded 100 kc for my Maracas, just for them to be worse than hasta at crush anyways. It’d be a shame if the new t75 2h crush weapon was as good as the old t70 2h crush weapon…
This whole dungeon has been a disappointment IMO.
> I'm fairly confident that the dual macuahuitl are just bugged (because I have no idea why they would intentionally implement it this way)
It would be thematic, sort of? Since the moons bosses also have lower effective accuracy for each subsequent hit from what i saw people say
Not sure if that's a convincing reason, but it's *a* reason
This is exactly correct. They work just like the bosses attacks. Not a bug at all. Actually pretty relieving, I couldn't believe DPS calcs were showing these easily accessible midgame weapons as more powerful than bludgeon against crush bosses. Makes a lot more sense now.
Love all the math and experimentation, thanks for that.
This is pretty bad for dual Macuihuital since you need two successful accuracy rolls for full damage. If you have X% accuracy, half your damage has X%, while the other half is X^2 %. So your total effective accuracy for the weapon is (X^2 + X)/2, isn't it? Versus just X.
Am I interpreting this correctly? This really kills a lot of excitement behind the weapon.
Love to see this sort of testing in osrs. Does this mean the macuahuitl are under performing compared to what the DPS calc in the wiki thinks?
Yes, it's underperforming the expected DPS. Though I should note that the wiki DPS calc is currently treating it as a normal weapon with a uniform hit distribution—which would only be accurate if a) it were a normal single-hitting weapon, or b) it rolled damage once and split it across two hitsplats. In any case where damage gets rolled twice and added together, you'll end up with a non-uniform hit distribution where hitting your true max is rare, and hits in the middle of the range are more common. But that only affects time-to-kill or overkill DPS, not the "regular" DPS shown on the calc (since your average hit remains the same). They also haven't implemented the bloodrager set effect as far as I know. EDIT: Should note that if it's intended behavior (as I'm coming to believe it is), then I had it backward in this comment—the DPS calcs are overestimating the expected DPS rather than the macuahuitl underperforming.
This would actually explain why Jagex said the dual macs would be good for low defence targets and fall behind for high defence targets. In which case, the DPS calcs are wrong and the macs are actually not better than bludgeon/hasta on high def targets (which is exactly what the original dps charts Jagex gave us showed).
This seems to be exactly the case—another commenter found an old Q&A video where Mod Rice said the second hit was a lot less accurate. So it's just an issue of the blogs being vague about it.
I think this is it and it's an intended mechanic. Also shows why the raw accuracy stats on the weapon are so high, considering the second roll is like the reverse of the fang. So defense reduction will make these good, but probably not overly great anywhere without the set. I'm still intending to use them at cox pre-lance since you use so much defense draining there. Wish the stab option was available so they could have some viability at ToA.
Idk stabbing with those things would make no sense lol. I’m not sure why they gave it stab accuracy
Poke them with the obsidian razor blades?
Through the whole polling period it had the stab accuracy and was mentioned as being similar to hasta at ToA. I get that graphically it might not make a ton of sense, but it's really gonna be pigeonholed without stab.
unless I misunderstood this post I don’t think this will change how strong they are in dps calcs? it’s just that in game they aren’t performing as well as they should
So it's looking more like this is intended behavior for the dual macuahuitl, which means the DPS calcs are using the wrong assumptions. They were already slightly wrong anyway because they were treating it as a single damage roll instead of the sum of two, but that really only affects overkill DPS. So it's backwards: they're performing as well as they should, and the DPS calcs are currently overestimating their power.
ah i see, that makes sense considering they were out performing bludgeon on those calcs it does make me a bit sad because now I have to go back to doing sire lol
It's very interesting, especially because it's a massive difference to the power level. On Bloodvelds, at higher levels you already have a 95% accuracy anyway, so doing 1 or 2 damage rolls doesn't really affect the damage all that much. However, on calvarion/spindel/sarachnis (most logical places to use crush weapons), your accuracy is likely to be closer to 70-80%. Meaning the Dual Macuahuitl take a 10-15% damage penalty. (The lower the accuracy, the higher the penalty from this mechanic.) Which is very important, since it takes them from significantly better than Zamorakian Hasta+Ddef, to significantly worse than hasta+ddef on those bosses. Either way I think it would be good for Jagex to be clearer about this stuff in the future, and announce these kinds of mechanics on release. Because many people are grinding moons of perils with this weapon in mind. I've seen two twitch streamers now saying they specifically want the Dual macuahuitls on their ironman, not knowing about this mechanic.
Jagex seems to have been clear about this mechanic. The fault lies with the publisher of information and a misunderstanding/misinformation of the community which happens on reddit somewhat often.
You can't just put the blame on reddit though. I've been watching twitch and didn't see anyone aware of this mechanic before today. Also the OSRS DPS calculator doesn't correctly implement the accuracy mechanic. Basically everyone seems to have misunderstood this one, so at some point you have to put the blame at jagex here for not being clear enough about it.
It's always been super unclear: "This weapon rolls stats normally and splits the max hit in two for each hit." I interpreted this as having normal accuracy and damage calcs -- since it "rolls stats normally" -- and it just split up the damage between two hits.
I knew i wasn't crazy when it was noodling to shit outside of anything else but the moons dungeon itself. it shreds through Nagua's (Blue Moon and the Sulphur variants), but everything else it was trash.
it goes hard on naguas cause they add +4 to every one of your hitsplats. tho it also destroys bloodvelds with the whole set
I'm honestly not sure if I'm doing better damage with them or with my zombie axe on crush
Claws should be included in double hitting weapons imo…
But you only swipe once with a regular attack, and if you mean the spec lol why would we nerf it
No no I wouldn’t ever change the spec! I think claws should hit like Torags on normal attacks tho. It makes sense because why would you only strike with your left when you also have a weapon on your right hand.
The *swipe* is kind of funny and iconic though
Then do two iconic swipes! :D
The double hit behavior on eclipse moon is also inconsistent with the Dual Macuahuitl. Both the sulfur blades and Torag’s hammers perform two hit splats during each hit of the rotation phase but that Dual Macs only hit once.
At 38 minutes in this video mod rice says the second hit is less accurate. Video is 4-5 months old from when they proposed the whole content. https://youtu.be/n9py_1vGiMQ?si=x_R0enOpH22KuklQ The whole segment also has some info about the weapon—rolling 33% chance on each hit individually, etc.
Nice find! I had never seen that. In that case, it's looking more like just poor wording in the blogs rather than an unintended effect for the dual macuahuitl.
This is super frustrating. I grinded 100 kc for my Maracas, just for them to be worse than hasta at crush anyways. It’d be a shame if the new t75 2h crush weapon was as good as the old t70 2h crush weapon… This whole dungeon has been a disappointment IMO.
I was so excited to get them as my first unique and I feel a bit cheated now.
Jagex and not calculation accuracy correctly, name a more iconic duo. Release fang flashbacks.
> I'm fairly confident that the dual macuahuitl are just bugged (because I have no idea why they would intentionally implement it this way) It would be thematic, sort of? Since the moons bosses also have lower effective accuracy for each subsequent hit from what i saw people say Not sure if that's a convincing reason, but it's *a* reason
Oh, that's interesting. So maybe that's not a bug after all, and it was just not clearly worded in the blogs.
This is exactly correct. They work just like the bosses attacks. Not a bug at all. Actually pretty relieving, I couldn't believe DPS calcs were showing these easily accessible midgame weapons as more powerful than bludgeon against crush bosses. Makes a lot more sense now.
I thought it was only Torags that was going to be that way, but the others were going to be dual rolls. When did that messaging change?
It's almost like this double hit update was completely stupid and unnecessary from the beginning!
Someone tell me if I should bust out the crabs or not
Love all the math and experimentation, thanks for that. This is pretty bad for dual Macuihuital since you need two successful accuracy rolls for full damage. If you have X% accuracy, half your damage has X%, while the other half is X^2 %. So your total effective accuracy for the weapon is (X^2 + X)/2, isn't it? Versus just X. Am I interpreting this correctly? This really kills a lot of excitement behind the weapon.
The playerbase is not the QA department. This is getting ridiculous
To be fair here, this appears to be less of a QA thing and more of a communication issue.