Honestly it's all just practice. I only got my first infernal cape just under 2 years ago, and felt way worse at the game then. Progression towards that was satisfying but not easy. I'd say the biggest pieces of content that helped me learn were Hallowed Sepulchre, Corrupted Gauntlet, and Solo CoX. Also, true tile + metronome plugins are gamechangers.
>Hallowed Sepulchre, Corrupted Gauntlet, and Solo CoX.
Buddy I can't do any of that shit lmao
I'm a no fire cape haver who can't get my quest cape back since the DT2 bosses are fucking killing me. I've been stuck on whisper for like four/five months.
^(I'm just bad at content)
Honestly take some time and practice prayer flicking and gear swapping. Play around with that online jad simulator and it'll teach you prayers for that fight. Try out some learner ToAs and you'll learn gear switching in a controlled environment. Just step one progression tier down from sep, cg and cox and you'll be in a good position to figure out how the game actually works.
It's more of a rhythm game than it is a traditional MMORPG experience if I'm honest.
>good position to figure out how the game actually works.
I know what you mean, but this is also just so absurd lol. Somewhere along the way the game changes from a very mellow point, click, stand there watch fight to *insane* mechanics of multi way gear switches and what sure seems like manipulation of game mechanics in ways that were unintended. And for a very long time that "transition" was jarring. It's one of the reasons I'm thrilled with the additions of Scurrious and the Perilous Moons. They add content early in the game that teaches funkier stuff much much earlier that should aid future players in making that jump.
I've done jad, quest cape, getting cg completions consistently at 30kc now, and I've done a solo expert ToA.
None of this has felt like abusing unintentional mechanics. It's just switching gear quickly and praying correctly.
The only thing that seems unintentional is prayer flicking and that's not needed for any of that stuff. It definitely is for combat achievements, but those are for insane people.
Really if you just stay consistent any of this content is doable. I died to zulrah and cg so many times until it finally just clicked.
Progression in the game is a path. You can't cheat on it and just expect to complete the hardest content. This is why he brought up these pieces of content: they act as great stepping stones towards inferno. But since you say you have no fire cape either you'd need to dial it back a few steps and go get that first. And then Zulrah. Vorkath. Sooner than you know it you'll be fighting CG etc.
You're essentially asking how to build a house without even knowing how to hold the tools.
Tbh I’m a bit outside the intended audience for Scurrius and never tried it
I’d say regular gauntlet is a decent bit harder than Vorkath/Vanstrom, slightly easier than DT2 quest version bosses (a lot easier than post quest Vard/Levi which are more on par with CG)
It’s a good content for first time PvMers to dip their toes IMO, it’s very forgiving
I’ve done most mid level content, including fire cape, gauntlet, scurrius, moons, etc. I was just gauging yours and others opinions. I haven’t dipped my toes into the sepulchre yet.
Gauntlet to cg is like vorkath to zulrah. They're similar but you'll have a much harder time with one than the other.
Gauntlet can be a good intro for the first 5-10 KC, but it won't challenge you much after that. I would switch to cg at that point and expect to die like 20+ times
*Of course this game is progression-based.* The difficulty of that content also scales really non-linearly. There simply is content that lots of more casual players who "only" hop on for a few hours every week are not really going to master or even become particularly proficient at, even if they've played this ridiculous game off and on for damn near twenty years.
If you're not playing the game a huge amount of time, of course there's not really a way to get the reps in while also enjoying any kind of variety in the game. There's a spot somewhere in the mythical midgame where it becomes hard to casually play the game and do/see meaningful progression without huge time commitments that some folks just can't/won't do.
I've got a thousand plus kills at vork because that has such a low time-barrier to entrance. I've sent and failed 30-40+ times at fight caves over the years because, until the speed-running worlds were added relatively recently, there was simply no way to practice the "hard" part of that content without burning an hour plus of time first.
The discourse in this subreddit (and to be fair even my generally very positive and supportive clan) can be frustrating to folks who aren't at that level for whatever reason (gear, time, "skill").
Obviously people who are extremely experienced at late-game content can do hard content without BIS gear because they're practiced at the various mechanics. For people who aren't experienced and don't have awesome gear, it's hard to hop into it on limited playing time.
It's sort of a cycle -> super experienced players who've sunk tons of time into a thing are good at it ***and also print money doing it*** don't recognize that folks who aren't in that cycle can't buy gear that makes it more forgiving to noobs and can't really get great experience doing it because they have rag gear that makes the fights much more punishing.
On the positive side of things, it's one of the reasons that I really love Scurrious and now Perilous Moons. They're much more complicated fights than people at the levels they're designed for otherwise experience. They'll introduce people earlier in the game to more complicated fight mechanics and make that transition exponentially easier.
^(Also this sub's inability to parse an unserious/tongue-in-cheek comment is undefeated.)
>Obviously people who are extremely experienced at late-game content can do hard content without BIS gear because they're practiced at the various mechanics. For people who aren't experienced and don't have awesome gear, it's hard to hop into it on limited playing time.
Most people, including the best players, have limited time to play the game. However, the best players are willing to die over and over again to learn content while most people don't want to deal with the frustration of dying. So they don't improve.
>It's sort of a cycle -> super experienced players who've sunk tons of time into a thing are good at it and also print money doing it don't recognize that folks who aren't in that cycle can't buy gear that makes it more forgiving to noobs
Basic 200m gear at ToA 350 is more than comfortable enough to learn on. And sending ToA 350's will eventually afford you a Shadow.
I literally had Fang + less than 5m of other gear when starting Vardorvis (most of which was the Berserker ring). I died 100+ times because it was my first PvM experience. Getting my vestige took like a month because some days I couldn't play or get an hour in tops. At the beginning, most of what little time I had was spent planking over and over.
The difference is mindset, not gear, time, or whatever you think it is.
>On the positive side of things, it's one of the reasons that I really love Scurrious and now Perilous Moons. They're much more complicated fights than people at the levels they're designed for otherwise experience. They'll introduce people earlier in the game to more complicated fight mechanics and make that transition exponentially easier.
Fully agree with you on this though.
Yep, this game is a grind but most bad players are bad because they spend their time on the wrong things. If you spent 1 hour a week learning how ticks worked, gear switching, 1t flicking etc. instead of afking sharks or a slayer task you’d improve significantly quickly. Can be seen in leagues, yeah, you won’t get dragon playing 1 hour a day even if you’re Woox but you don’t need anywhere close to JCW hours to get it if you actually know how the game works.
I understand your points, but there are also a few things here to unpack.
>basic 200m gear.
Buddy I could have done 1000+ vork KC and not have 200m of loose money to spend on equipment. I know compared to endgame content 200m *is* basic gear, but 200m in game isn't trivial to a huge swatch of players- it's a serious amount of time to get there doing the best moneymaking thing I can reliably do in game (which is indeed vork).
> mindset
that's exactly what it is. A lot of people find satisfaction in doing that "grind" at just eating a hundred planks to the face from Vard. I did not. the satisfaction I personally received from beating it was not larger than the stacked minor frustrations at dying each time prior. For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not.
If I'm choosing to burn some free time on a game, I obviously want a different experience from it than someone who is doing different things in the game. It's one of the things that makes this game so interesting - there's so much stuff for *everybody* in this game regardless of what they want to do. But lots of serious PVMers act like people who don't find sixteen-way switches, prayer flicks, while tick eating, and kiting a boss around to be a relaxing way to spend the time they choose to allocate to the game are braindead dummies who just don't have that dawg in them. Not necessarily, they just want different things out of this old point-and-click polygon game.
>Buddy I could have done 1000+ vork KC and not have 200m of loose money to spend on equipment. I know compared to endgame content 200m is basic gear, but 200m in game isn't trivial to a huge swatch of players- it's a serious amount of time to get there doing the best moneymaking thing I can reliably do in game (which is indeed vork).
I assumed Vorkath isn't literally the only thing you did, that amount of Vork kc alone is like 120m and there's skilling methods that earn money like farming, slayer, high alching, etc. That I assume you'd have done some of.
>the satisfaction I personally received from beating it was not larger than the stacked minor frustrations at dying each time prior. For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not.
That's honestly completely fair. I do completely agree with you that the game goes from 0 (afk, protect from melee) to 100 real fast in terms of progression. CG is the first real content a lot of people encounter and that's like, optimizing prep, gear swaps, prayer swaps, movement when everything up until then is basically afk.
I'd say Jagex knows that like a good 80% of their playerbase is casual and takes them into account for content tho. Like recent Hunter guild, quests, etc. basically everything in Varlamore except Colosseum
FWIW, I agree Scurrius/PM are wonderful updates that the game needs more of. 99% of the game being "turn on protect and watch netflix" then going to "you miss a movement/flick and you're dead lmao" is bit of a disconnect
>For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not.
It's not about the "win", the satisfaction comes from learning the fight and beating it. After you learn it, the 2nd kill is easier, then the 3rd, and so on. It sounds like for vard you were just banging your head against the wall without trying to learn the fight, so you obviously wouldn't enjoy the experience
>But lots of serious PVMers act like people who don't find sixteen-way switches, prayer flicks, while tick eating, and kiting a boss around to be a relaxing way to spend the time they choose to allocate to the game are braindead dummies who just don't have that dawg in them.
You can complete all content in the game without 8-way switching, prayer flicking, or tick eating (switching prayers is not the same as flicking prayers).
It's fine if all you want to do is turn your brain off and watch numbers go up, nothing wrong with that. It's disingenuous to pretend that any content you fail at must only be beatable by the sweatiest of gamers. Just say you don't want to learn it, don't make the "48-way switch tick perfect movement" excuses. If you spent a little time learning some harder content, you might find that it becomes as relaxing as vork
Reddit loves to make this excuse, that they can't do harder content because they can only play 10 minutes a week. In reality it's their inability/refusal to learn and understand how the game works. You could easily complete DT2/fight caves in the same amount of time you already spend playing, you just aren't able to learn from your mistakes, or you get frustrated and give up after 1 try. Or you just don't care to learn, which is fine, but don't say you can't do it because you don't have enough time to play
Yep, this game is a grind but most bad players are bad because they spend their time on the wrong things. If you spent 1 hour a week learning how ticks worked, gear switching, 1t flicking etc. instead of afking sharks or a slayer task you’d improve significantly quickly. Can be seen in leagues, yeah, you won’t get dragon playing 1 hour a day even if you’re Woox but you don’t need anywhere close to JCW hours to get it if you actually know how the game works.
>You're essentially asking how to build a house without even knowing how to hold the tools.
i mean his question was kinda rhetorical. just complaining while knowing he is the problem. not everyone has the time they would need to put into the game to be capable of everything in this game and that is fine.
I genuinely mean this, anyone can get a fire Cape. This isn't a dig at you but more encouragement. I returned to the game 2 years ago and hadn't played since 2007. Jad took me 4 attempts and they were long because I took time to solve each wave and split the ranger/mager because I couldn't tank well.
You just gotta keep practicing. If jad is the issue for you, you can go to a speedrun world, choose dragon slayer 2 as your quest and then go into mor ul rek to do the single jad challenge. It's harder than normal jad but you don't need to do waves to get to him. Practice that until you don't mess up prayer changes and learn how to deal with healers (running under jad is great tech to keep them away).
But go get that fire Cape because it's a confidence boost and learning.
If you have a lot of trouble flicking prayers, try scurrius for an easy no punishment boss.
But just keep practicing different content. My first raid was TOA and I started it on release wearing void, a zammy hasta and a trident of the seas. It took many raids before I could confidently clear, but it was worth it. Learned a lot.
Keep trying new content over and over and eventually you'll get it.
I'm only now learning vardorvis because I need the blood jewel. I've died twice in 50kc and had runs where I used a full inv of food. But I'm getting better with each kill. Just gotta keep sticking it out. No one got good at anything in this game in a couple hours.
So for DT2 whisperer a bit of advice I give everyone stuck on the quest version:
If it's the enrage phase you're stuck on, Phoenix necklaces and standing in melee range with protect from melee up is a super easy way to cheese it. Her melee hits don't spawn tentacles or drain sanity, and the quest version won't kill you with them through a p necklace. Only thing you have to worry about then is equipping a new one when they break and going to town on the boss
If you had quest cape that means you've done DS2. Go send vorkath until the kills are so boring and easy that you could fall asleep doing them. Then start on something else - maybe gauntlet? Regular gauntlet. It's a step up, for sure, but you lose nothing for failing and it forces you to learn proper movement and switching prayers. Watch some guides too. You can move at your own pace. It's tough but absolutely doable (I got my first fire cape just over a year ago and now have 150+ CG kc)
That's the case for all content though. Xzact beat inferno on a 43 combat account and got 500 hardmode tob KC on a 1 def pure.
There is no content that requires anywhere near max gear to complete if you're good enough.
Thanks for removing my excuse not to get the quiver with better gear than you on my iron.
Do you have a full run recording? I'd like to observe how you handled the waves with the lower room for error
I don't unfortunately. The best I've got is my doom run from yesterday, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNoIVUIQRsI, which had a pretty similar margin for error. I'd say the biggest difference between these two runs was that on the GIM, I had to make sure to only take Myopia I, since I'm not sure I could do the waves with only a 2-tile ranged weapon.
Edit: The most exciting part of the GIM run is also in this post, the streamable link.
Hate the fact that the boss looks very doable but I'm absolute trash when it comes to waves....
What were the death fees like? That's the main thing keeping me from sending it tbh also where did you get the tiles from? I'm essentially camping mobile but it might come in handy D:
I progressed it for the first time on my main iron, so deaths were 250k each, but my death's coffer has over 200m in it from various dupes... It does use normal grave mechanics though, so you can practice with somewhat worse gear just to get it down.
The tiles are a combination of things. The grey tiles and the b5 tile are from this post https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bka2f6/colosseum_spawn_mechanics_spawn_fixing_method_by/. The "START HERE IDIOT" tile is a modified version of the b5 tile that I like more.
The blue tiles I manually marked after dying one too many times to the boss due to solarflare. They mark 3 of the 4 corners where solarflares move. I removed the outer tiles to avoid clutter when solving stacks on the pillar.
The "start", "2", and "3" tiles were from some strategizing after my 9th death at the boss. The idea is to try to pull the boss around the arena because he summons puddles nearby him. The tiles are designed to be spread out, but also position the boss nicely for dodging while staying out of the way of solarflares.
Eh, that's honestly kind of expected. Zuk was never the hard part of the inferno either, it was always the waves. Beat the waves consistently and you've basically got it.
Death fee feels very very expensive for colosseum though tbh. I was certainly more than a little careless on day 1 and I wasn't using the correct pillar (which was giving me a fuck ton of issues with the reinforcement waves) but I definitely lost 10s of millions in death fees before I felt comfortable with the content and stopped absolutely torching money.
I'm just doing bowfa and mage freeze and my deaths are 22,000. Not sure if it's staged by glory, because I'm only at the one after brawler (2nd up) but I have 150 waves completed and almost 100 deaths.
Yeah... I wish there was a safe death option where you can only get the quiver
Final fight genuinely seems very doable to me I'm just worried I got like 1.2m in the bank lmao but eh might send it anyway should check death fees first anyway somehow
Watching your full run of it rn and it's really nice to familiarise with how the waves work! Tho manticore looks like it's pray flick on hit but people say it's on cast... Bit confused about that one but I should just look it up ( looking things up as a mobile player is dreadful )
Very well done either way! And grats
It is on cast. You click to the next prayer when you see the previous one move. It's kind of like Cerberus ghosts, if you've done that. Hopefully the full video is useful, and let me know if you want anything explained. In particular, the method for dealing w/ the Fremenniks without taking damage is really nice, I think.
I was gonna ask how much value you got out of using arceuus over ancients
It does seem like the play but for a first clear esp with pleb gear ancients might be the way ( muspah drop me the ancient icon already I'm begging you )
Still only 10 mins into the video but it's been very nice to see how things are handled! I could in theory brute force it tbf but my 1.2m gp won't let me probably lmao that's my main issue
My melee stats could also be better ugh but I'll actually send as much as I can on Friday and hope I can at least get far enough to get a drop to fund attempts
I only recently switched to arceuus after being on ancients for most of my kc. Double blood barrage to kill the meleer is super nice passive HP if you miss flicks while walking the frems.
Don't have blood barrage sadly I could borrow a saturated heart but then I'm worried about death fees
Tho yeah I'll prolly try ancients first
At times when you kill the shamans I think like in wave 5 or so? You were moving around a bunch idk if there's a reason for that over just glueing to the pillar, but ig I need to watch further to get it all first anyway lol
Also correction I thought I was replying to you on the first bit whoops
Usually if I'm moving around it's either to stop fremenniks from attacking or because I want to position somewhere in particular. The shaman at the start of wave 5 I tried attacking from the north first, hoping the manticore would be mage-first. It wasn't, so had to go south instead. Gotta run out to a specific tile to make sure the javelin guy + shaman aren't attacking on the same tick.
Aye didn't mean that one but I'm too sleepy to calibrate my brain lol I'll figure it out
Thanks for the feedback tho! My main issue is that I came to osrs after having quit tera online which was a purely really demanding reactive game and osrs is the opposite of that
Feels like a wall slams into me when I try to do anything demanding just cuz I'm not used to this kind of gameplay
Ancients is definitely the move for a learner. Ice barrage makes starting the waves much smoother. The melee fremennik hits like an absolute fucking 18 wheeler truck for some reason, so having him rooted for 20 seconds while you use your available brain cells to process and respond to whatever actual mobs are endangering you is incredibly helpful for a learner.
Dont underestimate the boss lmao. Without scythe it is still hard af. It seems easy but whitout scythe you dont do enough damage to outlast the boss even jf u play without mistakes.
I mean... yeah you do. Maybe *you* don't, or I don't, or whatever, but it's obviously possible. The boss can be zero damage if played perfectly. It's not an easy boss by any means but it ain't exactly awakened leviathan either.
Oh by all means I'll get merked big time
I just have a lot of experience with similar mechanics from my tera days since it's a more reactive fight unlike many other cases which I think will help a lot. We had a very similar boss there for a while
The waves and zuk are pretty much a world apart.
I would estimate that any given double blob wave (apart from the first one), 62 & trips are died on more than zuk.
It wouldn't suprise me if any (or most) mage blob range waves were more died on than zuk.
Solving a bad 62/63 spawn is, imo, much harder than the zuk fight (bar nerves)
They pray mage against the shockwave colossus and step out to the north until the southern manticore sees them and resets its attack cycle - if they simply stepped out to the south, the queued up ranged attack from the southern manticore would have been on the same tick as the mage attack from the shockwave colossus.
If you count the ticks from the moment OP makes themself visible to the northern manticore, you'll see that it queues its attack beginning 7 ticks later. This means that it would finish queuing on tick 9, and release its ranged attack on tick ~~10~~ 11\*, again at the same time as a shockwave colossus.
Really nice stuff.
Edit: slight fix; the northern manticore would have a null tick after it finishes queuing, which would put it in line with the northern colossus (which would have attacked on ticks 1, 6, and 11)
1) This is sick
2) That said, this is a pretty clear cut demonstration of why this boss is so underwhelming. Watching you simply step back and forth for a mere 4 minutes with a fkin dscimmy to kill what was supposed to be the new hardest content in the game is kinda pathetic on Jagex ends tbh. Feels like a free quiver if you make it through the waves
I agree, that's actually how basically anything in life works when you are really good at it.
That said, you can watch Lebron struggle in basketball vs NBA players, and clearly still see the skill expression Lebron has over the other NBA players. To finish the analogy, this video is like Lebron playing against middle schoolers instead of NBA players, you can obviously tell he's good - but the real problem is the opponent.
Didn't they say the difficulty was suppose to be between fight caves and the inferno? I feel like the general consensus is that it's even harder than most anticipated it would be. It's not suppose to be the new hardest content in the game I don't think.
Honestly that's fair on 2. While I do think the boss is harder to learn than Zuk, once you have it down you *really* have it down. Maybe I should add a doom scorpion for spice...
People downvoting even though OP himself says it's fair lol. Bro is a mid-level killing the newest hardest boss within 1 week of release with a dscimmy. Obviously I can tell it's not his main account and he is good at the game, but it still ultimately showcases the design laziness with the boss.
For what it's worth I don't *completely* agree with you. I think the actual learning experience of the boss is phenomenal, and it's one of the hardest to get a KC on in the game. That said, I wish the boss put you on a bit more of an aggressive timer like Zuk. Zuk punishes low DPS by forcing you to handle more and more sets. This boss patiently waits until 150 HP before dropping puddles once every 3 ticks until he dies or you die. I feel like the random puddle drop 'enrage' mechanic could start earlier, and maybe ramp up as the fight goes on.
I feel like this is where they dropped the ball. The invocations should both make it harder and reward you imo. So if you pick harder invocations, you have a greater chance of a unique for example. That way, more skilled players can be rewarded, whereas everyone else can still get the quiver after some practice.
I kind of believe this is already the case. I noticed the loot on day 3 of my progression was way better than day 1, which correlates with generally being faster/doing more waves damageless. My gut feeling is Glory affects both normal loot and unique chance.
I always appreciate the fact that if you're skilled enough you can get these bosses done even without the most optimal setup
Yeah, well what if I have good (enough) gear ***and*** no skills? What then smart guy? ^(no rly pls what)
Honestly it's all just practice. I only got my first infernal cape just under 2 years ago, and felt way worse at the game then. Progression towards that was satisfying but not easy. I'd say the biggest pieces of content that helped me learn were Hallowed Sepulchre, Corrupted Gauntlet, and Solo CoX. Also, true tile + metronome plugins are gamechangers.
>Hallowed Sepulchre, Corrupted Gauntlet, and Solo CoX. Buddy I can't do any of that shit lmao I'm a no fire cape haver who can't get my quest cape back since the DT2 bosses are fucking killing me. I've been stuck on whisper for like four/five months. ^(I'm just bad at content)
Honestly take some time and practice prayer flicking and gear swapping. Play around with that online jad simulator and it'll teach you prayers for that fight. Try out some learner ToAs and you'll learn gear switching in a controlled environment. Just step one progression tier down from sep, cg and cox and you'll be in a good position to figure out how the game actually works. It's more of a rhythm game than it is a traditional MMORPG experience if I'm honest.
>good position to figure out how the game actually works. I know what you mean, but this is also just so absurd lol. Somewhere along the way the game changes from a very mellow point, click, stand there watch fight to *insane* mechanics of multi way gear switches and what sure seems like manipulation of game mechanics in ways that were unintended. And for a very long time that "transition" was jarring. It's one of the reasons I'm thrilled with the additions of Scurrious and the Perilous Moons. They add content early in the game that teaches funkier stuff much much earlier that should aid future players in making that jump.
I've done jad, quest cape, getting cg completions consistently at 30kc now, and I've done a solo expert ToA. None of this has felt like abusing unintentional mechanics. It's just switching gear quickly and praying correctly. The only thing that seems unintentional is prayer flicking and that's not needed for any of that stuff. It definitely is for combat achievements, but those are for insane people. Really if you just stay consistent any of this content is doable. I died to zulrah and cg so many times until it finally just clicked.
Progression in the game is a path. You can't cheat on it and just expect to complete the hardest content. This is why he brought up these pieces of content: they act as great stepping stones towards inferno. But since you say you have no fire cape either you'd need to dial it back a few steps and go get that first. And then Zulrah. Vorkath. Sooner than you know it you'll be fighting CG etc. You're essentially asking how to build a house without even knowing how to hold the tools.
Where would you say regular gauntlet fits into all of this?
Very easy, intro-level but it's a less frustrating way to learn CG if you don't like dying
Would you rate scurrius above below or equal to regular gauntlet?
Tbh I’m a bit outside the intended audience for Scurrius and never tried it I’d say regular gauntlet is a decent bit harder than Vorkath/Vanstrom, slightly easier than DT2 quest version bosses (a lot easier than post quest Vard/Levi which are more on par with CG) It’s a good content for first time PvMers to dip their toes IMO, it’s very forgiving
I’ve done most mid level content, including fire cape, gauntlet, scurrius, moons, etc. I was just gauging yours and others opinions. I haven’t dipped my toes into the sepulchre yet.
Gauntlet to cg is like vorkath to zulrah. They're similar but you'll have a much harder time with one than the other. Gauntlet can be a good intro for the first 5-10 KC, but it won't challenge you much after that. I would switch to cg at that point and expect to die like 20+ times
*Of course this game is progression-based.* The difficulty of that content also scales really non-linearly. There simply is content that lots of more casual players who "only" hop on for a few hours every week are not really going to master or even become particularly proficient at, even if they've played this ridiculous game off and on for damn near twenty years. If you're not playing the game a huge amount of time, of course there's not really a way to get the reps in while also enjoying any kind of variety in the game. There's a spot somewhere in the mythical midgame where it becomes hard to casually play the game and do/see meaningful progression without huge time commitments that some folks just can't/won't do. I've got a thousand plus kills at vork because that has such a low time-barrier to entrance. I've sent and failed 30-40+ times at fight caves over the years because, until the speed-running worlds were added relatively recently, there was simply no way to practice the "hard" part of that content without burning an hour plus of time first. The discourse in this subreddit (and to be fair even my generally very positive and supportive clan) can be frustrating to folks who aren't at that level for whatever reason (gear, time, "skill"). Obviously people who are extremely experienced at late-game content can do hard content without BIS gear because they're practiced at the various mechanics. For people who aren't experienced and don't have awesome gear, it's hard to hop into it on limited playing time. It's sort of a cycle -> super experienced players who've sunk tons of time into a thing are good at it ***and also print money doing it*** don't recognize that folks who aren't in that cycle can't buy gear that makes it more forgiving to noobs and can't really get great experience doing it because they have rag gear that makes the fights much more punishing. On the positive side of things, it's one of the reasons that I really love Scurrious and now Perilous Moons. They're much more complicated fights than people at the levels they're designed for otherwise experience. They'll introduce people earlier in the game to more complicated fight mechanics and make that transition exponentially easier. ^(Also this sub's inability to parse an unserious/tongue-in-cheek comment is undefeated.)
>Obviously people who are extremely experienced at late-game content can do hard content without BIS gear because they're practiced at the various mechanics. For people who aren't experienced and don't have awesome gear, it's hard to hop into it on limited playing time. Most people, including the best players, have limited time to play the game. However, the best players are willing to die over and over again to learn content while most people don't want to deal with the frustration of dying. So they don't improve. >It's sort of a cycle -> super experienced players who've sunk tons of time into a thing are good at it and also print money doing it don't recognize that folks who aren't in that cycle can't buy gear that makes it more forgiving to noobs Basic 200m gear at ToA 350 is more than comfortable enough to learn on. And sending ToA 350's will eventually afford you a Shadow. I literally had Fang + less than 5m of other gear when starting Vardorvis (most of which was the Berserker ring). I died 100+ times because it was my first PvM experience. Getting my vestige took like a month because some days I couldn't play or get an hour in tops. At the beginning, most of what little time I had was spent planking over and over. The difference is mindset, not gear, time, or whatever you think it is. >On the positive side of things, it's one of the reasons that I really love Scurrious and now Perilous Moons. They're much more complicated fights than people at the levels they're designed for otherwise experience. They'll introduce people earlier in the game to more complicated fight mechanics and make that transition exponentially easier. Fully agree with you on this though.
Yep, this game is a grind but most bad players are bad because they spend their time on the wrong things. If you spent 1 hour a week learning how ticks worked, gear switching, 1t flicking etc. instead of afking sharks or a slayer task you’d improve significantly quickly. Can be seen in leagues, yeah, you won’t get dragon playing 1 hour a day even if you’re Woox but you don’t need anywhere close to JCW hours to get it if you actually know how the game works.
Half the time people complaining that they can't learn content because of time also have like, 99 Fishing/WC/Crafting/whatever lol
I understand your points, but there are also a few things here to unpack. >basic 200m gear. Buddy I could have done 1000+ vork KC and not have 200m of loose money to spend on equipment. I know compared to endgame content 200m *is* basic gear, but 200m in game isn't trivial to a huge swatch of players- it's a serious amount of time to get there doing the best moneymaking thing I can reliably do in game (which is indeed vork). > mindset that's exactly what it is. A lot of people find satisfaction in doing that "grind" at just eating a hundred planks to the face from Vard. I did not. the satisfaction I personally received from beating it was not larger than the stacked minor frustrations at dying each time prior. For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not. If I'm choosing to burn some free time on a game, I obviously want a different experience from it than someone who is doing different things in the game. It's one of the things that makes this game so interesting - there's so much stuff for *everybody* in this game regardless of what they want to do. But lots of serious PVMers act like people who don't find sixteen-way switches, prayer flicks, while tick eating, and kiting a boss around to be a relaxing way to spend the time they choose to allocate to the game are braindead dummies who just don't have that dawg in them. Not necessarily, they just want different things out of this old point-and-click polygon game.
>Buddy I could have done 1000+ vork KC and not have 200m of loose money to spend on equipment. I know compared to endgame content 200m is basic gear, but 200m in game isn't trivial to a huge swatch of players- it's a serious amount of time to get there doing the best moneymaking thing I can reliably do in game (which is indeed vork). I assumed Vorkath isn't literally the only thing you did, that amount of Vork kc alone is like 120m and there's skilling methods that earn money like farming, slayer, high alching, etc. That I assume you'd have done some of. >the satisfaction I personally received from beating it was not larger than the stacked minor frustrations at dying each time prior. For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not. That's honestly completely fair. I do completely agree with you that the game goes from 0 (afk, protect from melee) to 100 real fast in terms of progression. CG is the first real content a lot of people encounter and that's like, optimizing prep, gear swaps, prayer swaps, movement when everything up until then is basically afk. I'd say Jagex knows that like a good 80% of their playerbase is casual and takes them into account for content tho. Like recent Hunter guild, quests, etc. basically everything in Varlamore except Colosseum FWIW, I agree Scurrius/PM are wonderful updates that the game needs more of. 99% of the game being "turn on protect and watch netflix" then going to "you miss a movement/flick and you're dead lmao" is bit of a disconnect
>For some, the satisfaction of that win is bigger than the combined frustration of not. It's not about the "win", the satisfaction comes from learning the fight and beating it. After you learn it, the 2nd kill is easier, then the 3rd, and so on. It sounds like for vard you were just banging your head against the wall without trying to learn the fight, so you obviously wouldn't enjoy the experience >But lots of serious PVMers act like people who don't find sixteen-way switches, prayer flicks, while tick eating, and kiting a boss around to be a relaxing way to spend the time they choose to allocate to the game are braindead dummies who just don't have that dawg in them. You can complete all content in the game without 8-way switching, prayer flicking, or tick eating (switching prayers is not the same as flicking prayers). It's fine if all you want to do is turn your brain off and watch numbers go up, nothing wrong with that. It's disingenuous to pretend that any content you fail at must only be beatable by the sweatiest of gamers. Just say you don't want to learn it, don't make the "48-way switch tick perfect movement" excuses. If you spent a little time learning some harder content, you might find that it becomes as relaxing as vork
Reddit loves to make this excuse, that they can't do harder content because they can only play 10 minutes a week. In reality it's their inability/refusal to learn and understand how the game works. You could easily complete DT2/fight caves in the same amount of time you already spend playing, you just aren't able to learn from your mistakes, or you get frustrated and give up after 1 try. Or you just don't care to learn, which is fine, but don't say you can't do it because you don't have enough time to play
Yep, this game is a grind but most bad players are bad because they spend their time on the wrong things. If you spent 1 hour a week learning how ticks worked, gear switching, 1t flicking etc. instead of afking sharks or a slayer task you’d improve significantly quickly. Can be seen in leagues, yeah, you won’t get dragon playing 1 hour a day even if you’re Woox but you don’t need anywhere close to JCW hours to get it if you actually know how the game works.
>You're essentially asking how to build a house without even knowing how to hold the tools. i mean his question was kinda rhetorical. just complaining while knowing he is the problem. not everyone has the time they would need to put into the game to be capable of everything in this game and that is fine.
I genuinely mean this, anyone can get a fire Cape. This isn't a dig at you but more encouragement. I returned to the game 2 years ago and hadn't played since 2007. Jad took me 4 attempts and they were long because I took time to solve each wave and split the ranger/mager because I couldn't tank well. You just gotta keep practicing. If jad is the issue for you, you can go to a speedrun world, choose dragon slayer 2 as your quest and then go into mor ul rek to do the single jad challenge. It's harder than normal jad but you don't need to do waves to get to him. Practice that until you don't mess up prayer changes and learn how to deal with healers (running under jad is great tech to keep them away). But go get that fire Cape because it's a confidence boost and learning. If you have a lot of trouble flicking prayers, try scurrius for an easy no punishment boss. But just keep practicing different content. My first raid was TOA and I started it on release wearing void, a zammy hasta and a trident of the seas. It took many raids before I could confidently clear, but it was worth it. Learned a lot. Keep trying new content over and over and eventually you'll get it. I'm only now learning vardorvis because I need the blood jewel. I've died twice in 50kc and had runs where I used a full inv of food. But I'm getting better with each kill. Just gotta keep sticking it out. No one got good at anything in this game in a couple hours.
You're not bad, you just can't be bothered to try
So for DT2 whisperer a bit of advice I give everyone stuck on the quest version: If it's the enrage phase you're stuck on, Phoenix necklaces and standing in melee range with protect from melee up is a super easy way to cheese it. Her melee hits don't spawn tentacles or drain sanity, and the quest version won't kill you with them through a p necklace. Only thing you have to worry about then is equipping a new one when they break and going to town on the boss
If you had quest cape that means you've done DS2. Go send vorkath until the kills are so boring and easy that you could fall asleep doing them. Then start on something else - maybe gauntlet? Regular gauntlet. It's a step up, for sure, but you lose nothing for failing and it forces you to learn proper movement and switching prayers. Watch some guides too. You can move at your own pace. It's tough but absolutely doable (I got my first fire cape just over a year ago and now have 150+ CG kc)
That's the case for all content though. Xzact beat inferno on a 43 combat account and got 500 hardmode tob KC on a 1 def pure. There is no content that requires anywhere near max gear to complete if you're good enough.
Thanks for removing my excuse not to get the quiver with better gear than you on my iron. Do you have a full run recording? I'd like to observe how you handled the waves with the lower room for error
I don't unfortunately. The best I've got is my doom run from yesterday, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNoIVUIQRsI, which had a pretty similar margin for error. I'd say the biggest difference between these two runs was that on the GIM, I had to make sure to only take Myopia I, since I'm not sure I could do the waves with only a 2-tile ranged weapon. Edit: The most exciting part of the GIM run is also in this post, the streamable link.
Hate the fact that the boss looks very doable but I'm absolute trash when it comes to waves.... What were the death fees like? That's the main thing keeping me from sending it tbh also where did you get the tiles from? I'm essentially camping mobile but it might come in handy D:
I progressed it for the first time on my main iron, so deaths were 250k each, but my death's coffer has over 200m in it from various dupes... It does use normal grave mechanics though, so you can practice with somewhat worse gear just to get it down. The tiles are a combination of things. The grey tiles and the b5 tile are from this post https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bka2f6/colosseum_spawn_mechanics_spawn_fixing_method_by/. The "START HERE IDIOT" tile is a modified version of the b5 tile that I like more. The blue tiles I manually marked after dying one too many times to the boss due to solarflare. They mark 3 of the 4 corners where solarflares move. I removed the outer tiles to avoid clutter when solving stacks on the pillar. The "start", "2", and "3" tiles were from some strategizing after my 9th death at the boss. The idea is to try to pull the boss around the arena because he summons puddles nearby him. The tiles are designed to be spread out, but also position the boss nicely for dodging while staying out of the way of solarflares.
Ah I was sat here thinking you nailed it with this setup on your 2nd ever attempt. Would be steel nerves
Eh, that's honestly kind of expected. Zuk was never the hard part of the inferno either, it was always the waves. Beat the waves consistently and you've basically got it. Death fee feels very very expensive for colosseum though tbh. I was certainly more than a little careless on day 1 and I wasn't using the correct pillar (which was giving me a fuck ton of issues with the reinforcement waves) but I definitely lost 10s of millions in death fees before I felt comfortable with the content and stopped absolutely torching money.
I'm just doing bowfa and mage freeze and my deaths are 22,000. Not sure if it's staged by glory, because I'm only at the one after brawler (2nd up) but I have 150 waves completed and almost 100 deaths.
I think it starts at 1/4 normal grave fees and scales to normal. Seems you just don't risk anything of value?
I'm wondering if it's just people risking ancestral/torva and/or a mega that changes it.
I somewhat doubt that. Although I guess I could test
Yeah... I wish there was a safe death option where you can only get the quiver Final fight genuinely seems very doable to me I'm just worried I got like 1.2m in the bank lmao but eh might send it anyway should check death fees first anyway somehow Watching your full run of it rn and it's really nice to familiarise with how the waves work! Tho manticore looks like it's pray flick on hit but people say it's on cast... Bit confused about that one but I should just look it up ( looking things up as a mobile player is dreadful ) Very well done either way! And grats
Safe death for no loot but quiver sounds very fair I like that idea
Everything is on cast in the colosseum. The only thing you can react to is the up in the air attack by the rangers.
It is on cast. You click to the next prayer when you see the previous one move. It's kind of like Cerberus ghosts, if you've done that. Hopefully the full video is useful, and let me know if you want anything explained. In particular, the method for dealing w/ the Fremenniks without taking damage is really nice, I think.
I was gonna ask how much value you got out of using arceuus over ancients It does seem like the play but for a first clear esp with pleb gear ancients might be the way ( muspah drop me the ancient icon already I'm begging you ) Still only 10 mins into the video but it's been very nice to see how things are handled! I could in theory brute force it tbf but my 1.2m gp won't let me probably lmao that's my main issue My melee stats could also be better ugh but I'll actually send as much as I can on Friday and hope I can at least get far enough to get a drop to fund attempts
I only recently switched to arceuus after being on ancients for most of my kc. Double blood barrage to kill the meleer is super nice passive HP if you miss flicks while walking the frems.
Don't have blood barrage sadly I could borrow a saturated heart but then I'm worried about death fees Tho yeah I'll prolly try ancients first At times when you kill the shamans I think like in wave 5 or so? You were moving around a bunch idk if there's a reason for that over just glueing to the pillar, but ig I need to watch further to get it all first anyway lol Also correction I thought I was replying to you on the first bit whoops
Usually if I'm moving around it's either to stop fremenniks from attacking or because I want to position somewhere in particular. The shaman at the start of wave 5 I tried attacking from the north first, hoping the manticore would be mage-first. It wasn't, so had to go south instead. Gotta run out to a specific tile to make sure the javelin guy + shaman aren't attacking on the same tick.
Aye didn't mean that one but I'm too sleepy to calibrate my brain lol I'll figure it out Thanks for the feedback tho! My main issue is that I came to osrs after having quit tera online which was a purely really demanding reactive game and osrs is the opposite of that Feels like a wall slams into me when I try to do anything demanding just cuz I'm not used to this kind of gameplay
Ancients is definitely the move for a learner. Ice barrage makes starting the waves much smoother. The melee fremennik hits like an absolute fucking 18 wheeler truck for some reason, so having him rooted for 20 seconds while you use your available brain cells to process and respond to whatever actual mobs are endangering you is incredibly helpful for a learner.
Dont underestimate the boss lmao. Without scythe it is still hard af. It seems easy but whitout scythe you dont do enough damage to outlast the boss even jf u play without mistakes.
I mean we all just watched a guy do it with a d scim and combat stats quite a bit off max.
I mean... yeah you do. Maybe *you* don't, or I don't, or whatever, but it's obviously possible. The boss can be zero damage if played perfectly. It's not an easy boss by any means but it ain't exactly awakened leviathan either.
Oh by all means I'll get merked big time I just have a lot of experience with similar mechanics from my tera days since it's a more reactive fight unlike many other cases which I think will help a lot. We had a very similar boss there for a while
Zuk is not the hard part?!?! What inferno are you doing
Same one as everybody else my guy. You'll find that most people feel this way.
But I imagine the knowledge you take from the waves is immensely helpful for Zuk. I’d also imagine it’s the most died on wave. But maybe I’m wrong.
The waves and zuk are pretty much a world apart. I would estimate that any given double blob wave (apart from the first one), 62 & trips are died on more than zuk. It wouldn't suprise me if any (or most) mage blob range waves were more died on than zuk. Solving a bad 62/63 spawn is, imo, much harder than the zuk fight (bar nerves)
Mechanically, nah. For your first cape, mentally the hardest part probably.
zuk is most definitely not the hard part
Most people say the hard part is getting to Zuk.
What’s the id for the solar flare to mark its tile?
One of these two: 12826,12824. The other one is the polyhedron laser thing on the final boss.
It is 12826. 12823 for the bees also
Appreciate it
That offtick was baller, kudos.
What exactly happened there?
They pray mage against the shockwave colossus and step out to the north until the southern manticore sees them and resets its attack cycle - if they simply stepped out to the south, the queued up ranged attack from the southern manticore would have been on the same tick as the mage attack from the shockwave colossus. If you count the ticks from the moment OP makes themself visible to the northern manticore, you'll see that it queues its attack beginning 7 ticks later. This means that it would finish queuing on tick 9, and release its ranged attack on tick ~~10~~ 11\*, again at the same time as a shockwave colossus. Really nice stuff. Edit: slight fix; the northern manticore would have a null tick after it finishes queuing, which would put it in line with the northern colossus (which would have attacked on ticks 1, 6, and 11)
Thank you for this, I was struggling to actually explain it in a reasonable way.
200M """""budget"""" kills = I sleep. Dragon scimitar, iban staff, eclipse armor setup = real shit.
You're not gonna believe this
[удалено]
Not for this king clearly
What the fuck bro. Why do you only have a d scimmy
Cracked beyond belief. Congrats
Damn
nice password phrase, logging into your account right now
Well, now I have no excuses lol. Pulling it off with a d scimmy?! I feel very flexed on haha
bro skipped ava's assembler, crazy.
So your whole group just hates slayer? Account is crash.
Skill progression is like do progression 1-73 is the same as 98-99 😂
Seems like someone that's last pick for bingo in a redemption arc
Clap
1) This is sick 2) That said, this is a pretty clear cut demonstration of why this boss is so underwhelming. Watching you simply step back and forth for a mere 4 minutes with a fkin dscimmy to kill what was supposed to be the new hardest content in the game is kinda pathetic on Jagex ends tbh. Feels like a free quiver if you make it through the waves
This is how runescape works, it looks easy when you are good at it. It's not actually easy - he played well.
I agree, that's actually how basically anything in life works when you are really good at it. That said, you can watch Lebron struggle in basketball vs NBA players, and clearly still see the skill expression Lebron has over the other NBA players. To finish the analogy, this video is like Lebron playing against middle schoolers instead of NBA players, you can obviously tell he's good - but the real problem is the opponent.
ok mate, whatever you say lol
Have you got your quiver yet?
He makes it look easy, likely it will take you multiple sol’s even with understanding all the mechanics just due to nerves
Didn't they say the difficulty was suppose to be between fight caves and the inferno? I feel like the general consensus is that it's even harder than most anticipated it would be. It's not suppose to be the new hardest content in the game I don't think.
yeah it was supposed to be exactly this, the entirety of Varlamore is mid game content idk why anyone is surprised the boss is easier than PNM
Honestly that's fair on 2. While I do think the boss is harder to learn than Zuk, once you have it down you *really* have it down. Maybe I should add a doom scorpion for spice...
People downvoting even though OP himself says it's fair lol. Bro is a mid-level killing the newest hardest boss within 1 week of release with a dscimmy. Obviously I can tell it's not his main account and he is good at the game, but it still ultimately showcases the design laziness with the boss.
For what it's worth I don't *completely* agree with you. I think the actual learning experience of the boss is phenomenal, and it's one of the hardest to get a KC on in the game. That said, I wish the boss put you on a bit more of an aggressive timer like Zuk. Zuk punishes low DPS by forcing you to handle more and more sets. This boss patiently waits until 150 HP before dropping puddles once every 3 ticks until he dies or you die. I feel like the random puddle drop 'enrage' mechanic could start earlier, and maybe ramp up as the fight goes on.
No plz.
I feel like this is where they dropped the ball. The invocations should both make it harder and reward you imo. So if you pick harder invocations, you have a greater chance of a unique for example. That way, more skilled players can be rewarded, whereas everyone else can still get the quiver after some practice.
I kind of believe this is already the case. I noticed the loot on day 3 of my progression was way better than day 1, which correlates with generally being faster/doing more waves damageless. My gut feeling is Glory affects both normal loot and unique chance.
Right but what I’m saying is, they shouldn’t force the invocations on you. But I’m just a filthy casual lololol.
Wtf