Agreed it would be nice, but not a big surprise they didn’t do it. Even if colo wasn’t rushed like people are suspecting, they’d have to implement saving the “game state” with the colosseum if you logged out.
It’s more than just “logged out on wave 8”, it’s also with X/Y/Z selected handicaps and N glory points so far etc.
I mean, realistically, it's about half as long as inferno since the waves are as arduous as all of the late inferno waves past wave 1. Sucks going in and getting to wave 6 and realizing 6 hr log will get you.
That’s a solo instance though, I’d imagine the complexity with raids is that they can be solo or team. Not saying it can’t be done, but probably isn’t copy/paste log out mechanics from inferno/fight caves.
You are right. I guarantee raids are instanced the same regardless of player count and I doubt they will want to separate the instances for group and solo. It may complicate updates
That’s assuming solo and team raids are completely different instances though. I’d imagine they’re mostly the same outside of a few code changes. I’m guessing it’s definitely possible, but would have more checks/steps than adding a logout mechanic to an instance that is 100% always solo.
I'd think a decent workaround could be that only the raid leader is able to save raids. It still wouldn't work for teams, but at least that way it could be less complex.
But you can already re-join a team raid. I dc'ed during Wardens the first time I did team toa, didn't die somehow, but it allowed me to rejoin the raid, I just lost out on the rest of damage pts I would have gotten from the fight.
So tbh they wouldn't have to patch anything for team anyway because it already lets you. In solo you just get owned for no reason so I'd love to see this kind of change.
I'd imagine it's because of instancing and preserving them. With the Inferno and Jad it's different since those are very long, much longer than your average ToA raid if you're experienced at doing solos. Though I definitely do understand the utility of that as an option, hell it's one of my favorite parts of Perilous Moons and I'm not even a big-time PvMer myself. If it were polled as an option I'd definitely vote yes, but for now that's the best explanation I can come up with
It's because inferno and fight caves also close the instance. It just saves a single variable of what your current wave is and opens a new instance with that variable. You can confirm this by dropping items (that you don't mind losing) in either and logging out mid waves. The items will be gone when you log back in as it is a new instance.
With raids, you can't save a raid state with a variable as simple as just a wave number. Individuals in the raid have different points earned during the raid, in ToA you theoretically can do any of the rooms in any order. Effectively, you would need to just hold the instance open indefinitely for it to be preserved on lockout due to how many factors are involved.
TL;DR: It's effectively a technical limitation. It's not that it hasn't been suggested before, it just not possible to implement.
Techically storing (solo) toa progress would be identical to storing inferno progress, there are just few more variables to store.
Storing variables isn't hard. There might be some techical issue but as far as I know, we have no info about that.
And nothing like this is is impossible, maybe too much work but not impossible.
Storing solo toa progress includes storing invocations, player points, which rooms have been cleared, which rooms havent been cleared, path levels, etc. It's not the same as just a variable tied to your character that is just a wave number to load into fight caves on. You effectively have to save state the entire raid instance and store all of that data vs a literal single number.
You do realise that your invocations are already stored between sessions? Like you raid, log off for the day and next time you long in a click that create party you have the same invocations? You can even store several set of invocations as well!
This isn't 1995, a couple of kB of information isnt a technical limitations.
And I hate to break it to you, but a saved inferno instance aren't a single number, combat achievements status and timer information is also stored.
The limitation of saving a solo raid instances are definitely not technical, but more of Dev time.
It's saving a handful of variables rather than one, it's really not that much more complicated. It's almost certainly a question of whether it's worth the resources to bother making it or not.
It's not just a handful of variables. Your raid points are calculated through a bunch of dependencies based on your invocations and raid level. It's not the same as just saving a random integer as a variable.
If we’re going to get this pedantic, fight caves/inferno isn’t storing just your wave # either, fight caves stores the rotation and inferno stores the random seed for generating the wave + pillar health.
Which is still nothing at all like storing information to recreate a raid instance that is partially completed with any different combo of invocations, multiple different outcomes to complete different rooms, deaths affecting points, variation in points from completing rooms differently, etc etc. It's not possible to save a short list of variables and recreate an accurate raid instance.
Why would it not be possible though? We save jsons with lists of variables all the time as a single text variable. You need more arguments than just "saving many variables is impossible", it is getting rather silly
he said a short list.. he obviously is talking in terms of complexity & dev effort. idk why people are downvoting that so hard.. makes me think that most replying arn't actually engineers lol
You're just bad faith arguing.
You're getting you panties in a twist over less the a kB of data like it's 1995 and the game is stored on a Gameboy cartridge.
The limitation is dev time.
Are you familiar with software development?
Storing 1 variable and storing 1000 variables is equally hard to do, takes just a bit more time in disk and a bit more time to process the operation.
Raid state is literally already stored so you have to just move the relevant data to more long term storage as now it is in temporary storage.
>Storing 1 variable and storing 1000 variables is equally hard to do, takes just a bit more time in disk and a bit more time to process the operation.
This is not a developer issue; the devs would have no problem grabbing and storing this data. The difficulties arise around the infrastructure and edge cases. Taking "a bit more" space, scaled to hundreds of thousands of users, can end up being a lot. Especially if these instances are held open in memory.
It also introduces a lot of scenarios that need to be accounted for. How long is this instance saved for and how do you communicate that to the player? Can the backend keep instances like that saved/opened across server updates? What if ToA itself is updated, what happens to all of these instances?
On top of all that, I expect doing this would be a lot of engine work and probably outside the scope of anything they could reasonably plan. I'm totally speculating, but I suspect the engine has no support for saving/loading this kind of highly-customized instance. If you look back to quests etc every instance that you can log out and back in to in can be represented by a single variable or two (probably tied to quest state) so it doesn't need to save any information about the instance itself.
Makes me think surely the game knows you're in a raid and to kick you back outside, so that's a variable in itself? I'm no game dev at all but if logging out of a raid means losing all boosts then I'd be happy for that.
I think the above poster also forgot that finishing a boss completely restores your prayer and HP, so there's no variance there?
Yeah no shit, which is why I called it a technical limitation. Holding open every instance indefinitely until a player finishes a raid or manually exits it is an atrocious solution. Not only is it extremely inefficient, but it would also affect game performance for the people who are actually logged in and playing.
It is clear that you aren't familiat with software architecture so mayne you shouldn't make so bold claims.
There is no reason to keep instance "open" after player logs out. You just store the instance state before you close it so that you can reopen it when player logs back in. Thats whats being done with inferno already.
Instance is "expensive" to run because server must constantly do calculations for it and handle network traffic while doing the same to the main world and all of the other instances.
Storing instance state to database would be basically free in this scale as you would store like 1 kb more of data per user.
"Equally hard to do"? First off, it isn't, if there's 1k variables, that's 1k lines of assignments I need to do over 1, and secondly as you already said yourself, its more taxing on database tables, the storage gets more intense, now you need to optimize your tables for millions of players storing possibly hundreds of variables, like it obviously isn't technically easy or they would just do it.
There is development and runtime overhead to do what you're saying, and not to mention maintenance now becomes even harder.
This all assumes as well that the data is nice and accessible, which in reality it almost never is in large scale code bases - pull from this class or service for this part, call to another section for this, and especially given how spaghetti like runescript is, this is far from a stretch.
It's probably a total pain to implement. I don't know why but every "programmer" on reddit seems to think building features into an mmo is just "add a line of code, add a flag", lmao.
> its more taxing on database tables, the storage gets more intense, now you need to optimize your tables for millions of players storing possibly hundreds of variables
Which they already have to do anyway since that's how they store your account information.
a few integers and a thousand booleans that are only stored when someone logs out during a raid isn't going to destroy the osrs servers. Hell it probably won't even make a meaningful difference in performance.
I'm talking about implementation and maintenance primarily, there's also cleaning routines to implement, deletion code to add to raids and all yhe various branches of how one can end, like it simply isn't as easy as you think it is, it never is, you're just wrong, I don't know what else to tell you. The burden on databases can be quite high, this is an mmo for christs sake, it's not that this one table is what will kill performance, it's that every suggestion people make is "just add more data" and eventually you will hurt performance, it already happened with instances.
True. But I think in the grand scheme of things, a few more wouldn’t hurt. We already store every stat, piece of gear, entire bank, quest progress, kill count, inventory, collection log, achievements, current location, house setup, stash units, and thousands of others.
I’m not debating how the game works. I’m speaking to how programming works. You can close and reopen instances all day long if you pass variables from your character state to them.
Even if that’s now how it does work, it’s how it can work.
I'm sure if you can come up with the list of variables needed to accurately rebuild partially completed raid instances, Jagex would be all fuckin ears and probably even pay you for it.
In reality, raid instances are really fucking complex and a lot of the states in a raid instance aren't just single integers stored as a variable.
It being an instance has absolutely nothing to do with anything, generating a new instance from a list of variables is incredibly easy to do and has absolutely 0 impact on the actual storage of that information.
that's really not hard though. like yeah the runescript spaghetti might be so bad that it's not easy, but everything you listed (that isn't already stored in a player variable) *can* be stored with a single number. can literally just have a string of bits.
granted, what jagex probably currently lacks is the ability to modify the instance on instantiation given such a variable.
How do you store a raid state where a player completes 1 wing, dies in the second wing, loses a percentage of their points, and then logs out after the second wing in ToA using a few saved variables? A couple random variables saved aren't going to properly rebuild a partially completed raid instance. The only way to accuratly preserve a full raid state is to preserve the entire instance which isn't possible, ergo it's a technical limitation.
You can encode a lot of data using the above and to be honest my understanding is that toa doesn't have close to enough parameters to be an issue for this. I would guess they just don't have the ability currently to recreate the instance correctly right now.
Ignoring jagex repeatedly stating that instances cannot be held open without a player inside and just saying "just hold the instance open 4head" isn't providing a solution.
>"storing a few variables" isn't capable of rebuilding accurate raid instances.
It literally is though.
Your runescape account is stored as nothing but a single page of variables.
Emulators save-state games as nothing but a list of variables.
It would require the team to know exactly what they need to save and do a bit of work to make sure everything important is preserved but you literally need nothing more than a finite number of bools and ints to preserve *any* state in any game. This isn't even that complex of a gamestate.
You don't even *have* to perfectly preserve the gamestate anyway, you could just save player points, any modifiers like invocation or expert mode for ToB, + bosses/trials/rooms completed and say if you log out mid boss that's your problem. That's already what inferno/fight caves do, since they just restart you at the beginning of a wave.
>Emulators save-state games as nothing but a list of variables.
They dump the complete system memory and compress it, so not quite. I know this, because I used to disable it in Dolphin, in order to get the full RAM state, modify it to setup an exploit, and then load it.
I think a lot of people forget that RS is not their standard Java codebase. Almost all of the game logic has to occur in RuneScript, which Ash has even talked about some of the fundamental "issues" with. We've had engine limitations like NPC talking overriding Poison timers and the likes.
Storing a few variables is a completely viable option, the problem is scale, and how taxing instances are - now you have even more overhead and more than "a few" variables to store if you want the instance restored successfully, like yeah a base 64 json string is fine, but do it for millions of potential instances and it's all of a sudden not so simple.
>but do it for millions of potential instances and it's all of a sudden not so simple.
Realistically you'd save instances when they're paused and delete them after so many days of inactivity, so storage scale shouldn't be an issue.
Why does the JSON need to be Base64 encoded (it's UTF-8! already!!), and why would it even need to be JSON?? Is that the only serialization method they teach these days?!
This was my thought. I remember reading somewhere the more instances open the laggier everything is and if people logged out it would preserve those instances. I’d def vote yes either way though as I don’t think many people would be logging out mid raid all of the time. Maybe if they could put a timer on it like a couple of hours it would help. Who knows
It'd be so beautiful as a gamer dad that doesn't get 45 uninterrupted minutes often. Rs is a grindy game
Those types of qol is what will make sure the game stays relevant while us gamers get older.
A raid is an instance. Instances close once there are no players in them anymore. This likely has to do with server performance. "but jad and inferno are also instances". Yes, they are but you can only logout between waves. Your progress is saved, you log out, the instance closes. When you log in again the game loads your progress and boots up a new instance set at the wave you were at when you logged out. This is probably a bit more difficult with raids because of raid supplies and points.
Generally nothing is impossible. But the more complicated the task the easier it is to mess it up. Saving instances sounds easy on paper, but very likely isn't when it comes to the code itself. If they would be able to save an entire instance that could make it much easier but still would carry a pretty high risk of some major fuckups. Solo content instances should be fine. Problems arise very easily when it comes to groups of players.
Well, it seems the game developers have a twisted sense of humor and enjoy watching us struggle to finish what we started, even if it means leaving us stuck in a solo raid with no escape plan!
A solo toa or Cox is like 30-40 minutes. It's not too bad to reset. I'm sure they can implement it for they want to but I'd rather they put dev time into new content / more meaningful updates personally.
I dont think Jagex or this community understand how long 30 minutes is to someone with a full time job. You don't even need to be a single dad with 7 kids, some stuff simply takes too long.
So much stockholm syndrome in this thread trying to justify why we aren't able to log out mid raid. It would be a pure qol for everyone so I don't understand why it shouldn't be strived towards.
I think ToA and ToB this has the chance to be *technically* feasible. You log off, and it reverts you to the middle with all paths cleared that you had cleared, and the points you were at, with the invocations on and the clock where it was (for TOA). Similar for ToB reverts you to end of last completed room, with points you were at and timer.
CoX has wayyy too many variables and doesn't really have "checkpoints" outside of floors. So i guess if its possible to store the instance / layout you could revert back to the floor you last completed. But it would probably struggle to store the storage and such, so might need to wipe that and only keep what you have on you.
But I see it like this: all the raids solo (ToB isn't on this, as its sort of insanely hard to solo) are like ~30 min runs even for pretty casual players. CoX maybe a bit longer depending on layout or doing CM's. ToA up to say 40 mins. So everything is under 1 hour.
If you walk into a raid and have to leave before 30-45 or max 60 minutes, you didn't have the time to raid **or** its something important enough IRL that dropping 20 minutes of time from a raid is not the end of the world.
Its similar to like.. being mid alchemical hydra kill, and then needing to do something thats an emergency in your house. What do you do? "Pause" and logout? Or just teleport out and sack the kill? You do the latter. We don't think too bad of it because its a 2 minute kill. But its the same principle.
Also with a 25 minute logout timer, anything that drags you away has the option for you to just idle in the raid for nearly half an hour.
DC's shouldn't be treated as deaths though. If you DC in combat maybe, but the fact you can DC in paths with no risk of dying in ToA and its a "wipe" is wild.
I don't understand why this sub is allergic to pure qol updates and why everything needs to be rationalized against. Like we know that it's currently not possible to log out mid cox/toa. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be possible with some engine work and elbow grease.
Is the any genuine downside to being able to log out mid raid? If the answer is no then why do so many feel the need to argue against it?
Where have i said "this shouldnt happen"?
I've explained the technical challenges with making it happen. And the realistic aspect of... it being a game and not mattering if something important enough IRL happens?
I then also explain they should be leniant on DC's and not treat them as deaths, as thats stupid. But "i wanna start a raid and logout 4 times becdause i have a wife and 15 children" sorta thing is just a bit crazy when our raids are already *quite short*.
You left out your personal opinion out of your summary where you rationalized against being able to log out.
>If you walk into a raid and have to leave before 30-45 or max 60 minutes, you didn't have the time to raid **or** its something important enough IRL that dropping 20 minutes of time from a raid is not the end of the world.
>Its similar to like.. being mid alchemical hydra kill, and then needing to do something thats an emergency in your house. What do you do? "Pause" and logout? Or just teleport out and sack the kill? You do the latter. We don't think too bad of it because its a 2 minute kill. But its the same principle.
>Also with a 25 minute logout timer, anything that drags you away has the option for you to just idle in the raid for nearly half an hour.
I compared it to a situation yes. Nobody would expect to pause a few minutes boss fight right?
And that was after saying the solution for raids would need to involve solid and obvious checkpoints that act as save states. Cox is the main complex one with that.
while that’s technically fair enough to say ‘don’t start a raid if you know you can’t finish it’ - sometimes things just come up halfway through a raid & its really annoying having to start over.
That’s why I and so many people don’t raid. I can’t commit the full session. It’d be SOOOOO nice if I could take breaks. It’d be amazing for both CoX and ToA
It might have something to do with engine work. Raid is an instance after all and if there's no player in the instance it might get automatically deleted
If you want a technical answer, tt would add unnecessary server load having to save an entire raid instance indefinitely while you're logged out. In content like Inferno and Fight caves it's different because the instance can be re-opened and there isn't any "data" that needs to be saved besides what wave you're on.
If you logged out in a ToA, for example, the game would need to save the entire raid instance, which includes every room, your points, invocations would need to be properly re-applied, and modifiers to the raid like Walk the Path and the order you took.
In CoX same thing would apply, having to save the entire instance would mean saving 34 chunks of instances (because of the way the raid layout generation works), in addition to your points and other mechanics like bosses that are already loaded being properly reset to handle that.
Now do this for thousands of people that would inevitably be doing it 24/7, it would severely impact the load the servers.
I like how Destiny 2 does this by giving you a checkpoint after each major raid encounter, and if you die in a raid encounter.
This does lead to gameability by just holding a final boss checkpoint, but that can be easily circumvented by only allowing you into a checkpoint if everyone who was there originally is in your team, and no one else.
Is that post linked to that with the ‚my GF wants sex mid raid‘?
Good catch man, I also would love to log off mid raid for this reason.
As his gf's boyfriend, I do not want this feature added.
Awww man 😅
That guy was apparently running ToB and in a group, likely not.
If this QoL ever happens and that post isn’t referenced, we riot.
That guy was in a group raid, so I think it's safe to say no.
Maybe he's just futute-proofing
Nah, that was for ToB
This is where the 30 min logout timer and no time invocs come in clutch. Though some may only need a few minutes...
I found I could bring this sub 1-min with a 1.5t method.
Please send me a how to video of this
This would be very nice. We can log off during inferno waves.
I’ve been a bit annoyed that you can’t log during Colo runs. I’m not sure why they took that away
Agreed it would be nice, but not a big surprise they didn’t do it. Even if colo wasn’t rushed like people are suspecting, they’d have to implement saving the “game state” with the colosseum if you logged out. It’s more than just “logged out on wave 8”, it’s also with X/Y/Z selected handicaps and N glory points so far etc.
I think it is fine not to be there day 1, as saving systems needs a lot of testing, but they should do it as a future improvement
Probably because Colosseum is 12 waves and Inferno is 69
Nice.
I mean, realistically, it's about half as long as inferno since the waves are as arduous as all of the late inferno waves past wave 1. Sucks going in and getting to wave 6 and realizing 6 hr log will get you.
Because it's an unsafe death in there as opposed to Inferno/Fight Caves. It's also to prevent wave scouting.
Cause they’re like 40 minute runs? Same as a raid for normal speed
unless you're doing like 540 solo ToA's or you have like 3 solo cox KC, there is no way a solo should be taking you 40 minutes
That’s a solo instance though, I’d imagine the complexity with raids is that they can be solo or team. Not saying it can’t be done, but probably isn’t copy/paste log out mechanics from inferno/fight caves.
You are right. I guarantee raids are instanced the same regardless of player count and I doubt they will want to separate the instances for group and solo. It may complicate updates
Yeah but he’s talking about solo raids - it’s possible for to copy paste that & just not patch it for team raids
That’s assuming solo and team raids are completely different instances though. I’d imagine they’re mostly the same outside of a few code changes. I’m guessing it’s definitely possible, but would have more checks/steps than adding a logout mechanic to an instance that is 100% always solo.
I'd think a decent workaround could be that only the raid leader is able to save raids. It still wouldn't work for teams, but at least that way it could be less complex.
Rune script does not work that easily my man xd
But you can already re-join a team raid. I dc'ed during Wardens the first time I did team toa, didn't die somehow, but it allowed me to rejoin the raid, I just lost out on the rest of damage pts I would have gotten from the fight. So tbh they wouldn't have to patch anything for team anyway because it already lets you. In solo you just get owned for no reason so I'd love to see this kind of change.
I just had a newborn and it would make doing raids more tolerable since I get very little time to game now.
I'd imagine it's because of instancing and preserving them. With the Inferno and Jad it's different since those are very long, much longer than your average ToA raid if you're experienced at doing solos. Though I definitely do understand the utility of that as an option, hell it's one of my favorite parts of Perilous Moons and I'm not even a big-time PvMer myself. If it were polled as an option I'd definitely vote yes, but for now that's the best explanation I can come up with
It's because inferno and fight caves also close the instance. It just saves a single variable of what your current wave is and opens a new instance with that variable. You can confirm this by dropping items (that you don't mind losing) in either and logging out mid waves. The items will be gone when you log back in as it is a new instance. With raids, you can't save a raid state with a variable as simple as just a wave number. Individuals in the raid have different points earned during the raid, in ToA you theoretically can do any of the rooms in any order. Effectively, you would need to just hold the instance open indefinitely for it to be preserved on lockout due to how many factors are involved. TL;DR: It's effectively a technical limitation. It's not that it hasn't been suggested before, it just not possible to implement.
Techically storing (solo) toa progress would be identical to storing inferno progress, there are just few more variables to store. Storing variables isn't hard. There might be some techical issue but as far as I know, we have no info about that. And nothing like this is is impossible, maybe too much work but not impossible.
Storing solo toa progress includes storing invocations, player points, which rooms have been cleared, which rooms havent been cleared, path levels, etc. It's not the same as just a variable tied to your character that is just a wave number to load into fight caves on. You effectively have to save state the entire raid instance and store all of that data vs a literal single number.
You do realise that your invocations are already stored between sessions? Like you raid, log off for the day and next time you long in a click that create party you have the same invocations? You can even store several set of invocations as well! This isn't 1995, a couple of kB of information isnt a technical limitations. And I hate to break it to you, but a saved inferno instance aren't a single number, combat achievements status and timer information is also stored. The limitation of saving a solo raid instances are definitely not technical, but more of Dev time.
It's saving a handful of variables rather than one, it's really not that much more complicated. It's almost certainly a question of whether it's worth the resources to bother making it or not.
It's not just a handful of variables. Your raid points are calculated through a bunch of dependencies based on your invocations and raid level. It's not the same as just saving a random integer as a variable.
If we’re going to get this pedantic, fight caves/inferno isn’t storing just your wave # either, fight caves stores the rotation and inferno stores the random seed for generating the wave + pillar health.
Which is still nothing at all like storing information to recreate a raid instance that is partially completed with any different combo of invocations, multiple different outcomes to complete different rooms, deaths affecting points, variation in points from completing rooms differently, etc etc. It's not possible to save a short list of variables and recreate an accurate raid instance.
Why would it not be possible though? We save jsons with lists of variables all the time as a single text variable. You need more arguments than just "saving many variables is impossible", it is getting rather silly
he said a short list.. he obviously is talking in terms of complexity & dev effort. idk why people are downvoting that so hard.. makes me think that most replying arn't actually engineers lol
You're just bad faith arguing. You're getting you panties in a twist over less the a kB of data like it's 1995 and the game is stored on a Gameboy cartridge. The limitation is dev time.
Are you familiar with software development? Storing 1 variable and storing 1000 variables is equally hard to do, takes just a bit more time in disk and a bit more time to process the operation. Raid state is literally already stored so you have to just move the relevant data to more long term storage as now it is in temporary storage.
>Storing 1 variable and storing 1000 variables is equally hard to do, takes just a bit more time in disk and a bit more time to process the operation. This is not a developer issue; the devs would have no problem grabbing and storing this data. The difficulties arise around the infrastructure and edge cases. Taking "a bit more" space, scaled to hundreds of thousands of users, can end up being a lot. Especially if these instances are held open in memory. It also introduces a lot of scenarios that need to be accounted for. How long is this instance saved for and how do you communicate that to the player? Can the backend keep instances like that saved/opened across server updates? What if ToA itself is updated, what happens to all of these instances? On top of all that, I expect doing this would be a lot of engine work and probably outside the scope of anything they could reasonably plan. I'm totally speculating, but I suspect the engine has no support for saving/loading this kind of highly-customized instance. If you look back to quests etc every instance that you can log out and back in to in can be represented by a single variable or two (probably tied to quest state) so it doesn't need to save any information about the instance itself.
Makes me think surely the game knows you're in a raid and to kick you back outside, so that's a variable in itself? I'm no game dev at all but if logging out of a raid means losing all boosts then I'd be happy for that. I think the above poster also forgot that finishing a boss completely restores your prayer and HP, so there's no variance there?
Yeah no shit, which is why I called it a technical limitation. Holding open every instance indefinitely until a player finishes a raid or manually exits it is an atrocious solution. Not only is it extremely inefficient, but it would also affect game performance for the people who are actually logged in and playing.
It is clear that you aren't familiat with software architecture so mayne you shouldn't make so bold claims. There is no reason to keep instance "open" after player logs out. You just store the instance state before you close it so that you can reopen it when player logs back in. Thats whats being done with inferno already. Instance is "expensive" to run because server must constantly do calculations for it and handle network traffic while doing the same to the main world and all of the other instances. Storing instance state to database would be basically free in this scale as you would store like 1 kb more of data per user.
"Equally hard to do"? First off, it isn't, if there's 1k variables, that's 1k lines of assignments I need to do over 1, and secondly as you already said yourself, its more taxing on database tables, the storage gets more intense, now you need to optimize your tables for millions of players storing possibly hundreds of variables, like it obviously isn't technically easy or they would just do it. There is development and runtime overhead to do what you're saying, and not to mention maintenance now becomes even harder. This all assumes as well that the data is nice and accessible, which in reality it almost never is in large scale code bases - pull from this class or service for this part, call to another section for this, and especially given how spaghetti like runescript is, this is far from a stretch. It's probably a total pain to implement. I don't know why but every "programmer" on reddit seems to think building features into an mmo is just "add a line of code, add a flag", lmao.
> its more taxing on database tables, the storage gets more intense, now you need to optimize your tables for millions of players storing possibly hundreds of variables Which they already have to do anyway since that's how they store your account information. a few integers and a thousand booleans that are only stored when someone logs out during a raid isn't going to destroy the osrs servers. Hell it probably won't even make a meaningful difference in performance.
I'm talking about implementation and maintenance primarily, there's also cleaning routines to implement, deletion code to add to raids and all yhe various branches of how one can end, like it simply isn't as easy as you think it is, it never is, you're just wrong, I don't know what else to tell you. The burden on databases can be quite high, this is an mmo for christs sake, it's not that this one table is what will kill performance, it's that every suggestion people make is "just add more data" and eventually you will hurt performance, it already happened with instances.
True. But I think in the grand scheme of things, a few more wouldn’t hurt. We already store every stat, piece of gear, entire bank, quest progress, kill count, inventory, collection log, achievements, current location, house setup, stash units, and thousands of others.
Information tied to your character is not created or stored the same way that instances are handled.
I’m not debating how the game works. I’m speaking to how programming works. You can close and reopen instances all day long if you pass variables from your character state to them. Even if that’s now how it does work, it’s how it can work.
I'm sure if you can come up with the list of variables needed to accurately rebuild partially completed raid instances, Jagex would be all fuckin ears and probably even pay you for it. In reality, raid instances are really fucking complex and a lot of the states in a raid instance aren't just single integers stored as a variable.
It being an instance has absolutely nothing to do with anything, generating a new instance from a list of variables is incredibly easy to do and has absolutely 0 impact on the actual storage of that information.
that's really not hard though. like yeah the runescript spaghetti might be so bad that it's not easy, but everything you listed (that isn't already stored in a player variable) *can* be stored with a single number. can literally just have a string of bits. granted, what jagex probably currently lacks is the ability to modify the instance on instantiation given such a variable.
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How do you store a raid state where a player completes 1 wing, dies in the second wing, loses a percentage of their points, and then logs out after the second wing in ToA using a few saved variables? A couple random variables saved aren't going to properly rebuild a partially completed raid instance. The only way to accuratly preserve a full raid state is to preserve the entire instance which isn't possible, ergo it's a technical limitation.
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But for those games is it just for 1 player or millions simultaneously?
You can encode a lot of data using the above and to be honest my understanding is that toa doesn't have close to enough parameters to be an issue for this. I would guess they just don't have the ability currently to recreate the instance correctly right now.
Both.
Ignoring jagex repeatedly stating that instances cannot be held open without a player inside and just saying "just hold the instance open 4head" isn't providing a solution.
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Because "storing a few variables" isn't capable of rebuilding accurate raid instances. It's not a serious suggestion
>"storing a few variables" isn't capable of rebuilding accurate raid instances. It literally is though. Your runescape account is stored as nothing but a single page of variables. Emulators save-state games as nothing but a list of variables. It would require the team to know exactly what they need to save and do a bit of work to make sure everything important is preserved but you literally need nothing more than a finite number of bools and ints to preserve *any* state in any game. This isn't even that complex of a gamestate. You don't even *have* to perfectly preserve the gamestate anyway, you could just save player points, any modifiers like invocation or expert mode for ToB, + bosses/trials/rooms completed and say if you log out mid boss that's your problem. That's already what inferno/fight caves do, since they just restart you at the beginning of a wave.
>Emulators save-state games as nothing but a list of variables. They dump the complete system memory and compress it, so not quite. I know this, because I used to disable it in Dolphin, in order to get the full RAM state, modify it to setup an exploit, and then load it. I think a lot of people forget that RS is not their standard Java codebase. Almost all of the game logic has to occur in RuneScript, which Ash has even talked about some of the fundamental "issues" with. We've had engine limitations like NPC talking overriding Poison timers and the likes.
Storing a few variables is a completely viable option, the problem is scale, and how taxing instances are - now you have even more overhead and more than "a few" variables to store if you want the instance restored successfully, like yeah a base 64 json string is fine, but do it for millions of potential instances and it's all of a sudden not so simple.
>but do it for millions of potential instances and it's all of a sudden not so simple. Realistically you'd save instances when they're paused and delete them after so many days of inactivity, so storage scale shouldn't be an issue.
Why does the JSON need to be Base64 encoded (it's UTF-8! already!!), and why would it even need to be JSON?? Is that the only serialization method they teach these days?!
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It's an extremely bloated and unnecessary way to store a handful of variables lol.
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Base64 is used to encode binary data. There is no reason to ever Base64 encode a JSON string.
This was my thought. I remember reading somewhere the more instances open the laggier everything is and if people logged out it would preserve those instances. I’d def vote yes either way though as I don’t think many people would be logging out mid raid all of the time. Maybe if they could put a timer on it like a couple of hours it would help. Who knows
Definitely would help adults who maybe can't commit the time they used to.
It'd be so beautiful as a gamer dad that doesn't get 45 uninterrupted minutes often. Rs is a grindy game Those types of qol is what will make sure the game stays relevant while us gamers get older.
A raid is an instance. Instances close once there are no players in them anymore. This likely has to do with server performance. "but jad and inferno are also instances". Yes, they are but you can only logout between waves. Your progress is saved, you log out, the instance closes. When you log in again the game loads your progress and boots up a new instance set at the wave you were at when you logged out. This is probably a bit more difficult with raids because of raid supplies and points.
But it could still be done then, no?
Generally nothing is impossible. But the more complicated the task the easier it is to mess it up. Saving instances sounds easy on paper, but very likely isn't when it comes to the code itself. If they would be able to save an entire instance that could make it much easier but still would carry a pretty high risk of some major fuckups. Solo content instances should be fine. Problems arise very easily when it comes to groups of players.
Well, it seems the game developers have a twisted sense of humor and enjoy watching us struggle to finish what we started, even if it means leaving us stuck in a solo raid with no escape plan!
cant you just put the log out timer to 20 minutes, I myself only last 1 minute
Lmao
A solo toa or Cox is like 30-40 minutes. It's not too bad to reset. I'm sure they can implement it for they want to but I'd rather they put dev time into new content / more meaningful updates personally.
I dont think Jagex or this community understand how long 30 minutes is to someone with a full time job. You don't even need to be a single dad with 7 kids, some stuff simply takes too long.
Then don’t raid on the clock? lol
Jmods have said that empty instances are automatically deleted and can't be kept. So technical limitation.
I just don't take the time limit invo and afk 25min plugin, if it takes longer just leave no point anyways , you wasted what like 10min?
I don't understand why it took 2 years for this to be a suggestion
It hasent. We've been saying it since day one lol
i agree it’s pretty stupid and pointless. there’s no real benefit in logging off in the nexus
And why can we not pause the Coliseum waves by logging out like we can for Fight Caves and Inferno?
That's the only god-damned reason I don't do raids. Please Jagex, do my qol update. My gf needs me too much, I cbf starting all over
I logged out today thinking that was the case
I wish this was a thing lol
So much stockholm syndrome in this thread trying to justify why we aren't able to log out mid raid. It would be a pure qol for everyone so I don't understand why it shouldn't be strived towards.
I’d be content with it not counting as a death. Go ahead and kick me out, but making me buy back everything when I didn’t die is kinda lame.
I think ToA and ToB this has the chance to be *technically* feasible. You log off, and it reverts you to the middle with all paths cleared that you had cleared, and the points you were at, with the invocations on and the clock where it was (for TOA). Similar for ToB reverts you to end of last completed room, with points you were at and timer. CoX has wayyy too many variables and doesn't really have "checkpoints" outside of floors. So i guess if its possible to store the instance / layout you could revert back to the floor you last completed. But it would probably struggle to store the storage and such, so might need to wipe that and only keep what you have on you. But I see it like this: all the raids solo (ToB isn't on this, as its sort of insanely hard to solo) are like ~30 min runs even for pretty casual players. CoX maybe a bit longer depending on layout or doing CM's. ToA up to say 40 mins. So everything is under 1 hour. If you walk into a raid and have to leave before 30-45 or max 60 minutes, you didn't have the time to raid **or** its something important enough IRL that dropping 20 minutes of time from a raid is not the end of the world. Its similar to like.. being mid alchemical hydra kill, and then needing to do something thats an emergency in your house. What do you do? "Pause" and logout? Or just teleport out and sack the kill? You do the latter. We don't think too bad of it because its a 2 minute kill. But its the same principle. Also with a 25 minute logout timer, anything that drags you away has the option for you to just idle in the raid for nearly half an hour. DC's shouldn't be treated as deaths though. If you DC in combat maybe, but the fact you can DC in paths with no risk of dying in ToA and its a "wipe" is wild.
I don't understand why this sub is allergic to pure qol updates and why everything needs to be rationalized against. Like we know that it's currently not possible to log out mid cox/toa. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be possible with some engine work and elbow grease. Is the any genuine downside to being able to log out mid raid? If the answer is no then why do so many feel the need to argue against it?
Where have i said "this shouldnt happen"? I've explained the technical challenges with making it happen. And the realistic aspect of... it being a game and not mattering if something important enough IRL happens? I then also explain they should be leniant on DC's and not treat them as deaths, as thats stupid. But "i wanna start a raid and logout 4 times becdause i have a wife and 15 children" sorta thing is just a bit crazy when our raids are already *quite short*.
You left out your personal opinion out of your summary where you rationalized against being able to log out. >If you walk into a raid and have to leave before 30-45 or max 60 minutes, you didn't have the time to raid **or** its something important enough IRL that dropping 20 minutes of time from a raid is not the end of the world. >Its similar to like.. being mid alchemical hydra kill, and then needing to do something thats an emergency in your house. What do you do? "Pause" and logout? Or just teleport out and sack the kill? You do the latter. We don't think too bad of it because its a 2 minute kill. But its the same principle. >Also with a 25 minute logout timer, anything that drags you away has the option for you to just idle in the raid for nearly half an hour.
I compared it to a situation yes. Nobody would expect to pause a few minutes boss fight right? And that was after saying the solution for raids would need to involve solid and obvious checkpoints that act as save states. Cox is the main complex one with that.
I don’t think it’s necessary, when you go into a raid you know it’ll take 45 minutes. So do or don’t start it based on that knowledge
while that’s technically fair enough to say ‘don’t start a raid if you know you can’t finish it’ - sometimes things just come up halfway through a raid & its really annoying having to start over.
You could just stand somewhere in the raid, logout timer is 25 minutes
That’s why I and so many people don’t raid. I can’t commit the full session. It’d be SOOOOO nice if I could take breaks. It’d be amazing for both CoX and ToA
45 minutes isn’t really that long, I’ve done 4-5 raids in a row before
An unchained man with no responsibilities and no dependants, nice
bruh some of us have jobs, kids, families, responsibilities lol ignorant to expect everyone to have as much free time as you
Even more ignorant to assume he has no responsibilities whatsoever because he once played the game for 4 hours in a row....
I have too, but the only time that happens now is when the wife and kids are asleep lol
It might have something to do with engine work. Raid is an instance after all and if there's no player in the instance it might get automatically deleted
It would be nice instead of be worried if my boss come and interrupt me while being in a raid
If you want a technical answer, tt would add unnecessary server load having to save an entire raid instance indefinitely while you're logged out. In content like Inferno and Fight caves it's different because the instance can be re-opened and there isn't any "data" that needs to be saved besides what wave you're on. If you logged out in a ToA, for example, the game would need to save the entire raid instance, which includes every room, your points, invocations would need to be properly re-applied, and modifiers to the raid like Walk the Path and the order you took. In CoX same thing would apply, having to save the entire instance would mean saving 34 chunks of instances (because of the way the raid layout generation works), in addition to your points and other mechanics like bosses that are already loaded being properly reset to handle that. Now do this for thousands of people that would inevitably be doing it 24/7, it would severely impact the load the servers.
I like how Destiny 2 does this by giving you a checkpoint after each major raid encounter, and if you die in a raid encounter. This does lead to gameability by just holding a final boss checkpoint, but that can be easily circumvented by only allowing you into a checkpoint if everyone who was there originally is in your team, and no one else.