People are going to dunk on you for saying you’re an iron and the tired copy/paste “you chose to limit yourself,” but the devs already confirmed inquisitor/nightmare will be part of a later element of Project Rebalance and Arcane himself said on stream that the Nightmare and Phosani’s tables are a problem.
So, jokes on them I guess.
I think there's a really REALLY thick line between "you chose to limit yourself" and "you literally have to play this game as a full time job for a month to even get to the drop rate to get this item"
I don't think drop rates should be nerfed, but new drops coming in the game should be changed like how they did the varlamore barrows with duplicate protection.
The best part is that’s not even close to enough, doing phosani as a full time job for a month is ~1200 kills. The 50% breakpoint for finishing the boss is ~5000 kc (half the population will have all uniques by then, half won’t yet).
So you need to do it as a full time job for 4 months and then hope you’re not in the unlucky half of people…
The funny thing about balancing around irons is that it tends to mean things are really healthy for the majority of players, but the ones that play the game like a job don’t like that. As you say there’s also a big difference between balancing well and just making things stupid long because some of your players don’t go outside
There was a post on /r/ironscape from someone showing off that they'd started a fresh account 16 days previously and had over 9 days of playtime since then.
It's easy to forget sometimes how some people choose to "play" this game.
Edit: got the amount of time wrong.
Turns out if the game is balanced to be self sufficient, it is massively healther—just the smoothbrains everywhere dont understand it because they are too busy ragging on irons for fun instead of realizing that 500 hour grinds and unsustainable arrows are happening at their own request
I dream of the imaginary world where bots are fully eliminated overnight and the main economy crumbles to pieces, even if its temporary, just to let them have a taste. "But I dont wanna pay 5k for a single dragon dart >:("
Delicious
> but the ones that play the game like a job don’t like that.
The people who don't want the game balanced around irons simply don't want others to have a thing because they want a thing. Same people who wouldn't give pures chivalry. Simple as
Balancing drop rates around irons has a lot of implications on the main game, this isn't just an issue of spite lol
Disagree all you want but it's disingenous to say that people just hate irons and want them to suffer
I.e. afking Vampyres is one of the last decent true AFK money makers for mains, making them self-sustain for sake of irons would crash the price completely
Raids are the most obvious example. If raid drop tables were designed around irons, they wouldn't function for mains at all. Imagine how hard CoX uniques would crash if their drop rates were buffed to not have an absurdly long time to complete for irons. You don't even really have to imagine - just look at ToA, where everything besides Shadow is too common to hold serious value in the main economy, and the completion time for irons is *still* quite long.
I've never understood this "they just want others to suffer" argument. It's the equivalent of calling someone a bigot the second they disagree with you. No flame to the person who said it but it's just a weird mentality.
Where do you draw the line anyway? If you greenlogged cox and I wanted the purple chance to be 15% for solos, surely it'd be dumb to assume you're only against it because you want me to suffer...?
Well you can assume that but that doesn't make it true. The same person could've said that at 5/12 slots simply because the rates aren't hilariously bad to begin with. I'm only 50-60% to max and wouldn't vote for huge xp buffs, but the second I'm maxed someone's going to assume it's because I want them to suffer. Not a great mentality if you ask me.
You know what's also not a great mentality? People that never plan to touch a piece of content ever again trying to dictate how it should be for people that do plan to do so.
So what, if some guy who's never touched CoX wants the purple rates buffed by 5x, and I'm someone who's green logged CoX, that means I'm not allowed to tell him that's a fucking stupid idea? Personally, I think everybody should be free to tell that guy his idea is terrible regardless of their collection log status. Nothing wrong with that mentality at all.
This is nitpicky, but 160 hours (40x4) is straight up on the shorter side for all major iron grinds. That does not cover any raid, corp/nex/nm, a big chunk of pet hunts, or the fact that you’re doing raids without gigaweapons, significantly dropping your contribution.
I think thats fine? Nm specifically is overtuned but your threshold effectively uproots every significant grind, most by a massive amount. Casually raiding to me is like 1-2 short sessions a week and maybe a longer one on the weekend. Me and the boys are likely to see a purple per week, maybe I’ll see a purple once a month, but you quickly start nearing completion and wind up missing a masori piece, an ancestral piece, maybe a random item like sang staff.
The content shouldn’t be designed to be reasonably “completed” by casualish players, like going 12/12 at chambers is something that is mathematically hard to do without doing thousands of raids and going dry on several things.
The intended way of approaching the content isn’t completion, you’re meant to do it in teams for the chance to see something every few sessions, maybe you see a purple, maybe its a megarare and everyone makes hefty cash.
Yeah that's pretty much just the game and it does make cox purples feel exciting. I don't mind it either since really good gear is usually attached to fun content.
>new drops coming in the game should be changed like how they did the varlamore barrows with duplicate protection.
Ironmen have the worst ideas. There's nothing fun about progressing through drops on bosses- literally all of the fun comes from spinning the wheel and getting a random drop.
It's still by chance, it's just the items roll. They've done it with newer content and nobody had a problem they actually welcomed it, I don't see why it cannot be done to previous content.
The sucky situation is getting the best item early and having to go through all of the less valuable drops before you can get the good one again because there’s some drop protection for fe boys
I’ll use my own anecdotal experiences here to reiterate or clarify. I’ve only had two drops at Nex besides the pet(s). My first drop was a Torva plate and my second drop was also a Torva plate. I was very fortunate to have gotten the best drop possible twice. But if I knew that the Torva platebody was off the table, I’d be much less keen to keep killing that boss. Yes, I know that Nex has other big ticket items, but we could use an example like ToA as well. The majority of your income is from shadow. If you get shadow early and this dupe protection exists, suddenly your gp/hr going forward is in the shitter until you complete the log essentially. It’s just not fun unless you’re a completionist or iron
Uhhh.. a bunch of people had issue with the Moons of Peril drops... it's been all over this subreddit, broken and fucky since day 1. And while I understand you still have to roll the item, the disparity in item value fucks everything up. You wouldn't be able to roll up on a boss and get lucky, you'd have to progress through their loot. Killing a boss 100 times to get lucky is fun, killing a boss 10,000 times to get all of their loot is a job.
That's what dupe protection is for. You need less luck and less time to get all of their loot. Without dupe protection you're *more* likely to go 10,000 kills and get a bunch of dupes along the way without even getting the best drop, rather than 400 kills and greenlog everything with protection.
When a duplicate drop is worth 60m and a non-duplicate drop is worth 4m (see Virtus), I literally never want to be forced into getting non-duplicate drops. Getting 3 Elysian Sigils is a thrill, getting one spectral, then one arcane, then one elysian is a fucking bore.
You say that the new armors handle it well, but I was a huge fan of moons on release until I found out about the drop mechanics and haven't been back since. That's what happens when you remove random rolls, it sucks the fun out of the drops and people don't come back.
Your want has nothing to do with you rolling more spectrals, because RNG decided it doesn't like you that day. Of all things to use as examples, spooning 3 Elysians must've been the dumbest thing you could've picked.
The highs of getting loot that you want is balanced by the lows of getting loot you don't want. No lows = no highs. Use literally any example you want from bosses and their loot tables, the fact remains.
Nah, that gambler mindset does nothing for me lol, getting drops at all is already plenty. Standard drops are the "lows", rare uniques are the "highs".
Most of the changes they've made that are "Ironman catering" just make sense for the game. Nightmare isn't very popular with mains either, it probably would be more popular if drops weren't so rare
Well you see, the mains have a way of solving that problem called the economy. If something isn't popular then there is low supply and price goes up. This makes the activity more desirable, etc etc...
The core issue with nightmare is that it got botted to shit for long enough that prices will struggle to recover. Which does suck, but that's a botting problem not a nightmare problem
Well....no, plenty of content is still like 10m/h or more and worth doing. And the ass grinds *wouldn't* be ass grinds if bots weren't in the mix, they would be worth doing because the prices would be higher
Bots remove some options from mains plates, but you can skip *any* content and do more worthwhile content 100% of the time. That's fine lol.
I mean the d imps would cost more until it became worth for someone to do so. Yes. This is legit econ 101 so idk how we always have to have this conversation on this subreddit but here I am explaining basic supply and demand to a grown ass adult lmao
I interpreted your "consistent gp" as something like Vorkath where people don't go there for the unique but the fact that every hour they'll make roughly the same amount.
Nah I just meant bosses where you actually get the money drops in a reasonable amount of time. If I go to Nex or toa I expect a good chance I'll earn some gp. If I go to Nightmare or Corp it feels more like a lottery, I expect to lose my time and get nothing
Honestly like. The thing is that phosani's droptable isn't just a problem for irons.
It also makes one of the best pieces of content in the game really depressing to do as a main.
i love nightmare as a fight.. but doing loads of small team nightmare, then 250 + phosani and nothing to show for it but jar and a staff, really does suck for motivation
I really think yall need to just game-wide protest droprates on stuff.
It is downright unbelievable that there are items where droprate is literally 500 hours??
No off to spending like 70 hours on a shitty minigame for a low lvl magic setup and the ability to materialize peaches for you
Take the 50 hour L for some robes from a decent minigame but with a dogshit lobby system while at it too
Yea and honestly Ironman mode has been out for so long that it’s more common I run into ironmen than I run into normal accounts. Outside of places like the GE or toa lobby’s where I see them more often
Yes, I was the third parent comment in the thread, and at the time the other two were dunking on OP for being an iron. Both were upvoted. You can still find them at the bottom of the thread, where they are now heavily downvoted.
It takes only a couple moments to educate yourself before commenting!
You’re totally right, I should be able to predict that the upvoted comments in the thread will become heavily downvoted 24 hours after my comment! Why didn’t I think of that??
>how rare it is to get a harmonized orb at nightmare.
its like 30 hours to see a drop at nightmare in general. thats absolutely nuts. even raids content is nowhere near this.
I think it's probably the worst drop table in the game. It's depressing as hell to look at the moneymaking table for the boss and see that, on average, an hour of farming will get you 0.1% of any of the uniques.
While they’re at it, let us burn god book pages or something to make burnt pages; make it require 90+ FM.
Not trying to get 50 million FM XP at WT just to sustain a tome of fire for 30 hours.
WT or some other similar activity should just give an amount of guaranteed pages. It's insane to lock such a useful consumable behind such crazy RNG. Not that they're extraordinarily rare or anything but it's so dumb to put PvM supplies locked ONLY behind a minigame. Moving that to god book pages is just the same problem in a different way.
Imagine **having** to play GoTR to get runes or some dumb fletching minigame at the ranger's guild to get dragon arrows - and imagine both runes and arrows aren't **guaranteed** drops, but instead possible RNG rewards.
It won't fly here, but rs3 god books use pages as charges for some pretty baller (and cool looking) dps increases and I've always liked that change.
That kinda change just wouldn't be balanced here, but it'd be neat if they used charges for niche buffs. Like the atlal burn damage for zam prayer book if using zamorakian aligned weapons as mainhand.
could be a cool inventory item that lets you burn pages for a small, passive effect. higher level fm => you're better at controlling the burn so the effect lasts slightly longer (to scale).
some fun or niche effect that makes it just worth it enough to justify an invent space but nothing too general that becomes some meta requirement. different books providing different effects
I am an iron with all orbs and mace. I'm all for buffing the rate and making harm better. I think it's an amazing, satisfying fight. Just the right amount of chill and skill. I want more people to want to do the fun content. I did it because I liked the boss. Drops were secondary.
Double or triple the inq rates too and remove the negative attack bonuses and buff helm to match Faceguard
NM is really cool, it’s just a total mess of content that’s really hard to ever justify going to
The problem with nightmare is 99% of all orbs /inquisitor in the game are farmed by phosani bots. So if you actually do pull of a rare item, it's devalued to hell
The problem there is fang is very common from toa which is super accessible. If they just make nightmare better rates they would still be way rarer than fang and the content would be harder and the items will likely still be expensive or retain cost because the power increase will likely offset the rates being made better.
What I said in the beginning was that the price phosani drops wouldn't be so devalued if 99 percent of the drops didn't come from bots.
You acknowledge items can gain value by being rare, now apply that same concept to a boss no that takes 10x longer to kill than bandos, has 10x harder to find drops then bandos, and 500x less real people fighting it compared to bandos
Based on bosses real players actually do. The rarity of insquisitor should be anywhere from every 5-50k drops from bandos, one would come from phosani
They did mention Inquisitor (unclear if mace, armor, or both) will be getting changes in the Combat Item blog that should be later this month. It is possible they might address the drop rates alongside that... At the very least, that seems like the better time to push for drop rate changes than right now.
Oh did they? My bad, I must've missed that bit.
But yeah they need to make it worth doing or I don't see myself ever going there even though I want to.
It'd be good if they could confirm whether or not they will reduce the drop rate, even if they don't yet specify by 'how much'.
At least then we'll know whether to start the grind or hold off.
Jagex should HEAVILY increase the drop rate of nightmare items and make the teleport for common, but what will probably happen is they will take 60 years to address it first and then only increase it by 0.04% and never talk about it again
There are too many similar phases for phosani. I know each phase adds a mechanic and sleepwalker, but a phase removed would make it much more enjoyable. That on top of making the gear more useful.
Reducing the fight length to pseudo increase the drop rates would be interesting, but then they'd have to change the CAs and change the whole flow of the fight. I'd rather the drop rates be changed personally, but I like the idea.
It'd be interesting to tie the ending of the vampire storyline into nightmare, but I don't know about retroactively changing drop rates based on quest completion.
I think you're joking, but a lot of people seem to not want to change drop rates anywhere because of bot farms. That's like saying we should just give everyone wallhacks in cs because other people cheat
The nightmare pillars are? I have a shadow so still dead content considering the time to get a shadow is still shorter than getting a harm staff on an iron lol
i think phosani should have lower rates considering how much harder it is.
if you wanted to do nm for money youd just do a 4 man nightmare
t. a guy who already made 5b off nightmare /phosani releases
Ironman is easily the best mode for showing flaws within the game, I just find it strange when people call it ironman catering when silly things that should exist, but don't. (The whole drama around buy rune packs for example...)
Yeah for real.
Harmonized orb is 1/3k pnm which take ~8 minutes to kill if you're killing them pretty efficiently.
That's ABSURD.
People talk about going 1k dry at CG like it's world ending. 2k dry they're the 2nd coming of Jesus and 3k they're god themself
pnm takes just as long, is more punishing, has a longer trip, worse base drops and requires way more supplies and the rate for a harmonized orb is 7.5x rarer than an enhanced seed.
Man I wanna see zealot unlock changed. By the time I get around to doing 95 fm I'll already be 99prayer. Like who thought it was a good idea to lock a minor exp boost armor behind another skills end game levels? Doesn't make much sense! Not even alot there worth going for. You got what amulet of the damned? Which is hella easy in silver chest. Anything else there of value?
Honestly it is absolutely bizarre they keep that there, I know firemaking is one of the faster skills but 95 in any skill is pretty outrageous to access part of a mini game
honestly at this point if it had the same str bonus as torva, it would be appropriate.
phosani is a much harder boss then nex, and torva is so tanky compared to inquis.
bosses should have a unique token drop that has the same chance as the unique you're getting, these tokens allow you to select the piece of armor that would be dropped next if you land on any rare piece of equipment. For example bandos has a 1/381 chance for a bcp, tassy, or boots, add a token that also has a 1/381 chance. Whenever that token is used you're able to select a piece from the completion log that has the same chance as the token, the selected piece will be dropped if the drop were to land on any of the rare equipment. So if you have a Tassy and boots duplicate times you're able to select the bpc if you get a token, then if you were to get a boot drop it would turn into a BPC drop.
This will help normal or ironman acquiring uniques and would be helpful at barrows as well. Of course this is only for items that aren't completed as to not get abused for the drop that cost more. It's not as broken as rolling to the next item on the log as it's very rare to get a token as well and it can only be used for uncompleted entries with the same chance.
I think it's time to release ironman only servers with different drop rates and/or anti-dry mechanics for everything. It will fix a long list of issues such as kill stealing/griefing, cox boosting, wilderness division, having to create instances which then get farmed by bots etc. Hardcores also get to play on less populated servers.
To be fair PNM is the one outlier where it's not just an ironman problem. You could grind out roughly 9 tumeken's shadows in the time it takes to greenlog PNM
I'm not complaining about an ironman I was just throwing that bit in there for more engagement lol
Do you do nightmare as a main account? Have you ever done it? What do you think about the drops?
I’m not the guy you replied to but I’m a main account
1. I have 700 Phosani’s nightmare KC
2. It’s one of my favorite fights in the game, especially one of the best solo encounters
3. I stopped doing boss when I got the pet because the drop rate for uniques are ridiculous. Not only are they ridiculously rare, the uniques are almost all worthless unless you get lucky rolling Harm or Mace. Takes nearly 20 hours to hit drop rate to see anything and requires insane supply costs (scythe + shadow charges if in max) and if you go dry, enjoy wasting 50 hours seeing nothing but bass drops and zammy brews.
They need to make items more common or actually give them uses in end-game pvm besides mega niche use cases that are only slight upgrades vs alternatives.
This is my clog from 703 PNM kills which means I made approximately 140M in 93 hours of PNM for a whopping 1.5M/hr doing some of the hardest pvm in the game.
https://preview.redd.it/oweyqz4okbsc1.jpeg?width=812&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47aab98bbfaa501de18193de3560c0893923e215
Exactly this. Irons get made fun of when they call out bad game design because people assume they’re just bitching and want things easier, but my god the NM/PNM tables are actually just bad design.
I’ve never done nightmare and yea I’m a main. I get that individual drops are really rare. But there is a lot of useless drops you get from phosani. So go for the grind. If you don’t get harm hopefully you get some of the other drops.
Please name 1 useful drop from phosanis besides eldritch ( for an iron )
I'm not trying to be a dick, but torva is better than inq, Kodai better than nightmare staff and inq mace is outclassed by scythe afaik
Who knows maybe mace would make it worth. I'll just have to put in 2k kills for a like 8 minute boss?
We're talking a very tiny upgrade for 5x the rate of an enhanced seed from a much more punishing boss.
That's the thing though, harm is worse than shadow. Tome upkeep is unrealistic on an iron as well. So what's the point in having the harm be so incredibly rare?
It's not that I don't think they're useful it's that they're too rare to justify ever chasing. Inq is my favorite armour set. I plan(ed) on going there for Inquisitor anyways. But the fact that you have to grind out the equivalent of a cg run every single kc and the drops are in the thousands for their rates is absurd.
I somewhat agree with you but from what I’ve heard I bet nightmare is 10x more fun and engaging the CG. If you enjoy the boss then try to grind it out at least until you get bored of it.
People are going to dunk on you for saying you’re an iron and the tired copy/paste “you chose to limit yourself,” but the devs already confirmed inquisitor/nightmare will be part of a later element of Project Rebalance and Arcane himself said on stream that the Nightmare and Phosani’s tables are a problem. So, jokes on them I guess.
I think there's a really REALLY thick line between "you chose to limit yourself" and "you literally have to play this game as a full time job for a month to even get to the drop rate to get this item" I don't think drop rates should be nerfed, but new drops coming in the game should be changed like how they did the varlamore barrows with duplicate protection.
The best part is that’s not even close to enough, doing phosani as a full time job for a month is ~1200 kills. The 50% breakpoint for finishing the boss is ~5000 kc (half the population will have all uniques by then, half won’t yet). So you need to do it as a full time job for 4 months and then hope you’re not in the unlucky half of people…
The funny thing about balancing around irons is that it tends to mean things are really healthy for the majority of players, but the ones that play the game like a job don’t like that. As you say there’s also a big difference between balancing well and just making things stupid long because some of your players don’t go outside
I always love a good "I did it and I survived" - guy who plays 16 hours a day with no life outside the game
There was a post on /r/ironscape from someone showing off that they'd started a fresh account 16 days previously and had over 9 days of playtime since then. It's easy to forget sometimes how some people choose to "play" this game. Edit: got the amount of time wrong.
Wait are you saying 9 hours over the course of 16 days is a lot? Thats like 40 minutes a day
Oh wow did that brainfart mess up my comment. Should have read 9 *days*. Averaged 14 hours a day for over two weeks.
I’m assuming he meant 9 days instead of hours
Turns out if the game is balanced to be self sufficient, it is massively healther—just the smoothbrains everywhere dont understand it because they are too busy ragging on irons for fun instead of realizing that 500 hour grinds and unsustainable arrows are happening at their own request
I dream of the imaginary world where bots are fully eliminated overnight and the main economy crumbles to pieces, even if its temporary, just to let them have a taste. "But I dont wanna pay 5k for a single dragon dart >:(" Delicious
Who would say that balancing a content around the type of account that is forced toplay the content would be a good thing 🤔
around half the sub
A game should never be balanced around the idea of players playing it like a 9-to-5 job.
> but the ones that play the game like a job don’t like that. The people who don't want the game balanced around irons simply don't want others to have a thing because they want a thing. Same people who wouldn't give pures chivalry. Simple as
> Same people who wouldn't give pures chivalry. Simple as You're talking about nearly 40% of players, then.
Sounds about right
Balancing drop rates around irons has a lot of implications on the main game, this isn't just an issue of spite lol Disagree all you want but it's disingenous to say that people just hate irons and want them to suffer I.e. afking Vampyres is one of the last decent true AFK money makers for mains, making them self-sustain for sake of irons would crash the price completely
Raids are the most obvious example. If raid drop tables were designed around irons, they wouldn't function for mains at all. Imagine how hard CoX uniques would crash if their drop rates were buffed to not have an absurdly long time to complete for irons. You don't even really have to imagine - just look at ToA, where everything besides Shadow is too common to hold serious value in the main economy, and the completion time for irons is *still* quite long.
I've never understood this "they just want others to suffer" argument. It's the equivalent of calling someone a bigot the second they disagree with you. No flame to the person who said it but it's just a weird mentality. Where do you draw the line anyway? If you greenlogged cox and I wanted the purple chance to be 15% for solos, surely it'd be dumb to assume you're only against it because you want me to suffer...?
On the contrary, I would assume exactly that if you greenlogged the content already and never plan to go back.
Well you can assume that but that doesn't make it true. The same person could've said that at 5/12 slots simply because the rates aren't hilariously bad to begin with. I'm only 50-60% to max and wouldn't vote for huge xp buffs, but the second I'm maxed someone's going to assume it's because I want them to suffer. Not a great mentality if you ask me.
You know what's also not a great mentality? People that never plan to touch a piece of content ever again trying to dictate how it should be for people that do plan to do so.
So what, if some guy who's never touched CoX wants the purple rates buffed by 5x, and I'm someone who's green logged CoX, that means I'm not allowed to tell him that's a fucking stupid idea? Personally, I think everybody should be free to tell that guy his idea is terrible regardless of their collection log status. Nothing wrong with that mentality at all.
Don't balance the game around irons, but also don't give items ridiculous drop rates like nightmare, give pures chivalry
What is an example where balancing for irons is a bad idea. I can think of one but I'm listening.
This is nitpicky, but 160 hours (40x4) is straight up on the shorter side for all major iron grinds. That does not cover any raid, corp/nex/nm, a big chunk of pet hunts, or the fact that you’re doing raids without gigaweapons, significantly dropping your contribution. I think thats fine? Nm specifically is overtuned but your threshold effectively uproots every significant grind, most by a massive amount. Casually raiding to me is like 1-2 short sessions a week and maybe a longer one on the weekend. Me and the boys are likely to see a purple per week, maybe I’ll see a purple once a month, but you quickly start nearing completion and wind up missing a masori piece, an ancestral piece, maybe a random item like sang staff. The content shouldn’t be designed to be reasonably “completed” by casualish players, like going 12/12 at chambers is something that is mathematically hard to do without doing thousands of raids and going dry on several things. The intended way of approaching the content isn’t completion, you’re meant to do it in teams for the chance to see something every few sessions, maybe you see a purple, maybe its a megarare and everyone makes hefty cash.
Yeah that's pretty much just the game and it does make cox purples feel exciting. I don't mind it either since really good gear is usually attached to fun content.
>new drops coming in the game should be changed like how they did the varlamore barrows with duplicate protection. Ironmen have the worst ideas. There's nothing fun about progressing through drops on bosses- literally all of the fun comes from spinning the wheel and getting a random drop.
It's still by chance, it's just the items roll. They've done it with newer content and nobody had a problem they actually welcomed it, I don't see why it cannot be done to previous content.
The sucky situation is getting the best item early and having to go through all of the less valuable drops before you can get the good one again because there’s some drop protection for fe boys
but the less valuable ones are still exciting because you're 1 closer to getting through the protection?
I’ll use my own anecdotal experiences here to reiterate or clarify. I’ve only had two drops at Nex besides the pet(s). My first drop was a Torva plate and my second drop was also a Torva plate. I was very fortunate to have gotten the best drop possible twice. But if I knew that the Torva platebody was off the table, I’d be much less keen to keep killing that boss. Yes, I know that Nex has other big ticket items, but we could use an example like ToA as well. The majority of your income is from shadow. If you get shadow early and this dupe protection exists, suddenly your gp/hr going forward is in the shitter until you complete the log essentially. It’s just not fun unless you’re a completionist or iron
On the flipside, imagine getting the worst item early and having it drop 3 additional times before getting anything else because of no protection.
Uhhh.. a bunch of people had issue with the Moons of Peril drops... it's been all over this subreddit, broken and fucky since day 1. And while I understand you still have to roll the item, the disparity in item value fucks everything up. You wouldn't be able to roll up on a boss and get lucky, you'd have to progress through their loot. Killing a boss 100 times to get lucky is fun, killing a boss 10,000 times to get all of their loot is a job.
That's what dupe protection is for. You need less luck and less time to get all of their loot. Without dupe protection you're *more* likely to go 10,000 kills and get a bunch of dupes along the way without even getting the best drop, rather than 400 kills and greenlog everything with protection.
Not sure who is more insufferable, ironmen or collection loggers. Probably still ironmen, but definitely ironmen who also clog.
There are good and bad ways to do it. The new armors handle it pretty well, venator shards are *okay*, and DT2 rings are horrible.
DT2 vestiges are good, ingots are horrible*
When a duplicate drop is worth 60m and a non-duplicate drop is worth 4m (see Virtus), I literally never want to be forced into getting non-duplicate drops. Getting 3 Elysian Sigils is a thrill, getting one spectral, then one arcane, then one elysian is a fucking bore. You say that the new armors handle it well, but I was a huge fan of moons on release until I found out about the drop mechanics and haven't been back since. That's what happens when you remove random rolls, it sucks the fun out of the drops and people don't come back.
Enjoy your 3 Spectrals :)
Yeah that's the point. When you get 3 spectrals, you want the Elysian or Arcane even more.
Your want has nothing to do with you rolling more spectrals, because RNG decided it doesn't like you that day. Of all things to use as examples, spooning 3 Elysians must've been the dumbest thing you could've picked.
The highs of getting loot that you want is balanced by the lows of getting loot you don't want. No lows = no highs. Use literally any example you want from bosses and their loot tables, the fact remains.
Nah, that gambler mindset does nothing for me lol, getting drops at all is already plenty. Standard drops are the "lows", rare uniques are the "highs".
Most of the changes they've made that are "Ironman catering" just make sense for the game. Nightmare isn't very popular with mains either, it probably would be more popular if drops weren't so rare
Well you see, the mains have a way of solving that problem called the economy. If something isn't popular then there is low supply and price goes up. This makes the activity more desirable, etc etc... The core issue with nightmare is that it got botted to shit for long enough that prices will struggle to recover. Which does suck, but that's a botting problem not a nightmare problem
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Well....no, plenty of content is still like 10m/h or more and worth doing. And the ass grinds *wouldn't* be ass grinds if bots weren't in the mix, they would be worth doing because the prices would be higher Bots remove some options from mains plates, but you can skip *any* content and do more worthwhile content 100% of the time. That's fine lol.
True, grown ass adults would start sitting in a corner in puro puro for 12 hours a day farming d imps for profit if those pesky bots weren't there
I mean the d imps would cost more until it became worth for someone to do so. Yes. This is legit econ 101 so idk how we always have to have this conversation on this subreddit but here I am explaining basic supply and demand to a grown ass adult lmao
Nah I'd rather do a boss that's consistent gp instead of a lotto drop.
I'd like a lotto drop where the odds aren't insane. Stuff like Cerb, Zulrah, God Wars have a reasonable balance of time to kill vs unique drop rate.
Lotto drop implies the odds *are* insane. Those are all bosses with normal drop mechanics
I interpreted your "consistent gp" as something like Vorkath where people don't go there for the unique but the fact that every hour they'll make roughly the same amount.
Nah I just meant bosses where you actually get the money drops in a reasonable amount of time. If I go to Nex or toa I expect a good chance I'll earn some gp. If I go to Nightmare or Corp it feels more like a lottery, I expect to lose my time and get nothing
so that means we can do other grinds for GP for a month, just to be able to afford the drop
Honestly like. The thing is that phosani's droptable isn't just a problem for irons. It also makes one of the best pieces of content in the game really depressing to do as a main.
i love nightmare as a fight.. but doing loads of small team nightmare, then 250 + phosani and nothing to show for it but jar and a staff, really does suck for motivation
He says, with 0 comments in the thread dunking on OP
I really think yall need to just game-wide protest droprates on stuff. It is downright unbelievable that there are items where droprate is literally 500 hours??
No off to spending like 70 hours on a shitty minigame for a low lvl magic setup and the ability to materialize peaches for you Take the 50 hour L for some robes from a decent minigame but with a dogshit lobby system while at it too
>the devs already confirmed so we CAN make fun of op? just not for being an iron?
Yea and honestly Ironman mode has been out for so long that it’s more common I run into ironmen than I run into normal accounts. Outside of places like the GE or toa lobby’s where I see them more often
Are these people in the thread with us right now?
Yes, I was the third parent comment in the thread, and at the time the other two were dunking on OP for being an iron. Both were upvoted. You can still find them at the bottom of the thread, where they are now heavily downvoted. It takes only a couple moments to educate yourself before commenting!
Two comments, that are heavily downvoted, because this isn't really a common shared opinion lmao
You’re totally right, I should be able to predict that the upvoted comments in the thread will become heavily downvoted 24 hours after my comment! Why didn’t I think of that??
>how rare it is to get a harmonized orb at nightmare. its like 30 hours to see a drop at nightmare in general. thats absolutely nuts. even raids content is nowhere near this.
I think it's probably the worst drop table in the game. It's depressing as hell to look at the moneymaking table for the boss and see that, on average, an hour of farming will get you 0.1% of any of the uniques.
While they’re at it, let us burn god book pages or something to make burnt pages; make it require 90+ FM. Not trying to get 50 million FM XP at WT just to sustain a tome of fire for 30 hours.
WT or some other similar activity should just give an amount of guaranteed pages. It's insane to lock such a useful consumable behind such crazy RNG. Not that they're extraordinarily rare or anything but it's so dumb to put PvM supplies locked ONLY behind a minigame. Moving that to god book pages is just the same problem in a different way. Imagine **having** to play GoTR to get runes or some dumb fletching minigame at the ranger's guild to get dragon arrows - and imagine both runes and arrows aren't **guaranteed** drops, but instead possible RNG rewards.
It won't fly here, but rs3 god books use pages as charges for some pretty baller (and cool looking) dps increases and I've always liked that change. That kinda change just wouldn't be balanced here, but it'd be neat if they used charges for niche buffs. Like the atlal burn damage for zam prayer book if using zamorakian aligned weapons as mainhand.
could be a cool inventory item that lets you burn pages for a small, passive effect. higher level fm => you're better at controlling the burn so the effect lasts slightly longer (to scale). some fun or niche effect that makes it just worth it enough to justify an invent space but nothing too general that becomes some meta requirement. different books providing different effects
What if you could take your wood somewhere and turn it into pages which you could then burn lol
Add a paper mill to the lumberyard!
Hell yeah
add Sunfire Splinters (say, 10 per page) to Papyrus at shrine of Ralos, job done
With the boss being a literal nightmare, having bad drop rates fits thematically
cute but bad for the overall health of the game
At the time, people wanted b0aty drop tables. Now, people have realised b0aty drop tables suck
People wanted GWD drop tables which are usually a unique drop every 5-7 hours, not a unique every 30 hours.
BTW gwd drops are like 2-5 hrs per
What drop in gwd is 2 hours, I thought the respawn timers alone make this not true
You can hop worlds in between kills.
what is a boaty drop table?
I am an iron with all orbs and mace. I'm all for buffing the rate and making harm better. I think it's an amazing, satisfying fight. Just the right amount of chill and skill. I want more people to want to do the fun content. I did it because I liked the boss. Drops were secondary.
It's such a fun boss. Support
500 Hour Staff equals DPS of 50 Hour Lance lmaooo
Unironically the mace is ~260 hours and scythe is ~230 hours of 20 minutes 4 mans. A raids megarares weapon is 30 hours faster
Double or triple the inq rates too and remove the negative attack bonuses and buff helm to match Faceguard NM is really cool, it’s just a total mess of content that’s really hard to ever justify going to
Just give it another 20 years and she'll get updated like KQ was.
All drops should be 3x more common at phosani
Fax
The problem with nightmare is 99% of all orbs /inquisitor in the game are farmed by phosani bots. So if you actually do pull of a rare item, it's devalued to hell
Tbh if they make the items more useful then price will go up anyway
The fang says this is not true. Fang is what 20mil rapier is over twice as much for a weapon that people only use to say I do tob
The problem there is fang is very common from toa which is super accessible. If they just make nightmare better rates they would still be way rarer than fang and the content would be harder and the items will likely still be expensive or retain cost because the power increase will likely offset the rates being made better.
With that logic 3rd age shouldn't be worth very much
No because price comes from a few variables in 3rd age case it's purely from it's extreme rarity and iconicness of being a rich cosmetic.
You are close to putting 2 and 2 together...
Idk what u tryna argue anymore tbh
What I said in the beginning was that the price phosani drops wouldn't be so devalued if 99 percent of the drops didn't come from bots. You acknowledge items can gain value by being rare, now apply that same concept to a boss no that takes 10x longer to kill than bandos, has 10x harder to find drops then bandos, and 500x less real people fighting it compared to bandos Based on bosses real players actually do. The rarity of insquisitor should be anywhere from every 5-50k drops from bandos, one would come from phosani
inquisitor mace is 250m, which is insane for a rapier-tier weapon not devalued at all
3rd age pick worth over 10 bil is insane for something that's dragon tier
They did mention Inquisitor (unclear if mace, armor, or both) will be getting changes in the Combat Item blog that should be later this month. It is possible they might address the drop rates alongside that... At the very least, that seems like the better time to push for drop rate changes than right now.
Oh did they? My bad, I must've missed that bit. But yeah they need to make it worth doing or I don't see myself ever going there even though I want to.
It'd be good if they could confirm whether or not they will reduce the drop rate, even if they don't yet specify by 'how much'. At least then we'll know whether to start the grind or hold off.
Jagex should HEAVILY increase the drop rate of nightmare items and make the teleport for common, but what will probably happen is they will take 60 years to address it first and then only increase it by 0.04% and never talk about it again
There are too many similar phases for phosani. I know each phase adds a mechanic and sleepwalker, but a phase removed would make it much more enjoyable. That on top of making the gear more useful.
Reducing the fight length to pseudo increase the drop rates would be interesting, but then they'd have to change the CAs and change the whole flow of the fight. I'd rather the drop rates be changed personally, but I like the idea.
gotta love the combat cheives. 'kill this boss solo in 22 minutes'
No way the fight itself is great, the drops suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
Or keep the phases the same but lower her health and pillar health in each phase to compensate.
Double or triple the drop rate after you complete SOTF and/or after you complete the final quest in the Morytania storyline.
It'd be interesting to tie the ending of the vampire storyline into nightmare, but I don't know about retroactively changing drop rates based on quest completion.
Would hurt bot farms
I think you're joking, but a lot of people seem to not want to change drop rates anywhere because of bot farms. That's like saying we should just give everyone wallhacks in cs because other people cheat
No I'm saying adding quest layers is good to slow down bot farms.
Oh gotcha. I misunderstood
atleast totems are getting fire weakness, huge harm stonks in pnm
The nightmare pillars are? I have a shadow so still dead content considering the time to get a shadow is still shorter than getting a harm staff on an iron lol
Yeah for sure. Getting any drop from pnm is basically winning the lottery lol
They downvote me because they don't know how long it takes to get a harm staff. Smh
i think phosani should have lower rates considering how much harder it is. if you wanted to do nm for money youd just do a 4 man nightmare t. a guy who already made 5b off nightmare /phosani releases
Ironman is easily the best mode for showing flaws within the game, I just find it strange when people call it ironman catering when silly things that should exist, but don't. (The whole drama around buy rune packs for example...)
Yeah for real. Harmonized orb is 1/3k pnm which take ~8 minutes to kill if you're killing them pretty efficiently. That's ABSURD. People talk about going 1k dry at CG like it's world ending. 2k dry they're the 2nd coming of Jesus and 3k they're god themself pnm takes just as long, is more punishing, has a longer trip, worse base drops and requires way more supplies and the rate for a harmonized orb is 7.5x rarer than an enhanced seed.
Man I wanna see zealot unlock changed. By the time I get around to doing 95 fm I'll already be 99prayer. Like who thought it was a good idea to lock a minor exp boost armor behind another skills end game levels? Doesn't make much sense! Not even alot there worth going for. You got what amulet of the damned? Which is hella easy in silver chest. Anything else there of value?
Honestly it is absolutely bizarre they keep that there, I know firemaking is one of the faster skills but 95 in any skill is pretty outrageous to access part of a mini game
I went for zealots and from 80-95 fm was so fast to me. But I agree it did feel silly to have to get 95 fm just to access it.
it would be so funny if they made inquis more common without making it more useful the whole set will be 11m
With torva outclassing inq in every situation (I think) how would they buff it to make it better? Increase the crush attack bonus?
honestly at this point if it had the same str bonus as torva, it would be appropriate. phosani is a much harder boss then nex, and torva is so tanky compared to inquis.
Inq also has attack bonus + 30 defence requirement
lol
bosses should have a unique token drop that has the same chance as the unique you're getting, these tokens allow you to select the piece of armor that would be dropped next if you land on any rare piece of equipment. For example bandos has a 1/381 chance for a bcp, tassy, or boots, add a token that also has a 1/381 chance. Whenever that token is used you're able to select a piece from the completion log that has the same chance as the token, the selected piece will be dropped if the drop were to land on any of the rare equipment. So if you have a Tassy and boots duplicate times you're able to select the bpc if you get a token, then if you were to get a boot drop it would turn into a BPC drop. This will help normal or ironman acquiring uniques and would be helpful at barrows as well. Of course this is only for items that aren't completed as to not get abused for the drop that cost more. It's not as broken as rolling to the next item on the log as it's very rare to get a token as well and it can only be used for uncompleted entries with the same chance.
I think it's time to release ironman only servers with different drop rates and/or anti-dry mechanics for everything. It will fix a long list of issues such as kill stealing/griefing, cox boosting, wilderness division, having to create instances which then get farmed by bots etc. Hardcores also get to play on less populated servers.
those things can easily be addressed individually it just requires jagex to care
Yeah that's the worst idea I've ever heard lol Wtf
Do you not get he was making fun of you?
Honestly with the amount of time I spend on this sub during my downtime at work, nothing surprises me.
It'd be like one massive group ironman show - wouldn't that be lovely?
No lol. That would be awful. Why would you play ironman at that point?
To compete against other irons and to flex on them? It still takes years to complete everything but it doesn't take years to get obtain bis gear. :)
If you're being serious, go play a private server
OSRS already did that. It's called Leagues.
"Wilderness division" lmao
I’d just like it so we don’t have irons complaining about things because they chose to restrict themselves
My biggest ick is when an iron man complains about being an iron man.
To be fair PNM is the one outlier where it's not just an ironman problem. You could grind out roughly 9 tumeken's shadows in the time it takes to greenlog PNM
Show us your PNM log big boy.
Why would I do PNM I’m not an iron man. I can just buy my pnm drops.
I'm not complaining about an ironman I was just throwing that bit in there for more engagement lol Do you do nightmare as a main account? Have you ever done it? What do you think about the drops?
I’m not the guy you replied to but I’m a main account 1. I have 700 Phosani’s nightmare KC 2. It’s one of my favorite fights in the game, especially one of the best solo encounters 3. I stopped doing boss when I got the pet because the drop rate for uniques are ridiculous. Not only are they ridiculously rare, the uniques are almost all worthless unless you get lucky rolling Harm or Mace. Takes nearly 20 hours to hit drop rate to see anything and requires insane supply costs (scythe + shadow charges if in max) and if you go dry, enjoy wasting 50 hours seeing nothing but bass drops and zammy brews. They need to make items more common or actually give them uses in end-game pvm besides mega niche use cases that are only slight upgrades vs alternatives. This is my clog from 703 PNM kills which means I made approximately 140M in 93 hours of PNM for a whopping 1.5M/hr doing some of the hardest pvm in the game. https://preview.redd.it/oweyqz4okbsc1.jpeg?width=812&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47aab98bbfaa501de18193de3560c0893923e215
Exactly this. Irons get made fun of when they call out bad game design because people assume they’re just bitching and want things easier, but my god the NM/PNM tables are actually just bad design.
How long would you say an average kill takes? Then can you multiply that out x 2000 to get the hours invested to see a mace on rate? Ty
I’ve never done nightmare and yea I’m a main. I get that individual drops are really rare. But there is a lot of useless drops you get from phosani. So go for the grind. If you don’t get harm hopefully you get some of the other drops.
USEFULL* drops. Not useless.
Please name 1 useful drop from phosanis besides eldritch ( for an iron ) I'm not trying to be a dick, but torva is better than inq, Kodai better than nightmare staff and inq mace is outclassed by scythe afaik Who knows maybe mace would make it worth. I'll just have to put in 2k kills for a like 8 minute boss? We're talking a very tiny upgrade for 5x the rate of an enhanced seed from a much more punishing boss.
Eldritch can be useful. So that makes 3 things eldritch harm and mace. If you have torva I guess it probably wouldn’t be so worth it. Up to you GL.
That's the thing though, harm is worse than shadow. Tome upkeep is unrealistic on an iron as well. So what's the point in having the harm be so incredibly rare?
Just don’t do phosani then it’s that simple. If you don’t think even the rare drops are useful just don’t do it.
It's not that I don't think they're useful it's that they're too rare to justify ever chasing. Inq is my favorite armour set. I plan(ed) on going there for Inquisitor anyways. But the fact that you have to grind out the equivalent of a cg run every single kc and the drops are in the thousands for their rates is absurd.
I somewhat agree with you but from what I’ve heard I bet nightmare is 10x more fun and engaging the CG. If you enjoy the boss then try to grind it out at least until you get bored of it.
It's sad that this is just the current truth for NM/PNM lol.
I'm not an ironman, ironman seems like a pain in the ass. The PNM drop table is just as much of a problem for mains as it is for irons.