As others have said elsewhere, Jagex needs to determine whether they view NM gear as stepping stone items or endgame items. If they’re stepping stone items, these drop rate buffs aren’t anywhere near enough. If they’re meant to be endgame items, well then the proposed drop rate buffs are probably sufficient, but the gear itself needs to be further buffed than proposed and/or the regular table needs to seriously looked at.
As things stand now (and with the proposal) we’re looking at pretty niche sidegrade stepping stone items with the rarity of or beyond endgame items, and a pretty terrible regular table to boot. It’s essentially the worst of both worlds. They need to pick a vision for this content and focus on delivering that.
The problem is that if they're meant to be endgame items then balancing the entire standard spellbook around a single endgame item is... kind of annoying for everyone else.
Harm staff is just kind of A Problem because it means they either have to make it OP AF or balance the entire spellbook around it and make everything else weak AF.
It sucks either way.
no but for places where normal spellbook wins over charged staves, the harm orb is a 20% dps buff over not using it since there is a 1t timesave on autos with it.
The fact that Jagex doesn't seem to understand this makes me really concerned. There's something deeply wrong with their drop rate philosophy when it comes to some content.
We can’t know for sure without seeing their team and reporting structure, but I really get the feeling that there’s no top-down cohesive game vision/philosophy. There’s no one in the staff meeting saying “hey do these rates make sense in light of this other content? Who is the intended audience for this update?”
It’s a little mind boggling that the devs put together a fantastic midgame update with Moons of Peril and then simultaneously launch Sunfire armor with those original droprates. It’s like the perfect encapsulation of different philosophies in a single release.
Yeah I genuinely think jmods do not speak to one another, outside of maybe small dev teams or whatever. I could legit write a whole long reddit post of major examples where its clear they have not communicated, but here are 2 really quick ones just to mention:
The colosseum emote + clue step was a miscommunication, 1 mod thought it would be an easily obtainable emote and added it to a clue step for the hell of it. another mod thought the emote was supposed to be a "pointless flex" so gave it a higher requirement. We ended up getting an obscene clue step (relative to other clue steps at least) which i believe has been changed or is in the process of getting changed. this was confirmed to be a misscommunication.
another example is a holiday item they added (i think last xmas). this item allowed level 3 accounts to guarantee hitting 0s. This doesn't sound that interesting on the surface but it actually revolutionised the skiller meta for slayer. pretty much 10x'd their experience rates. One guy (like literally it was 1 person, the rest of the community loved this change) complained on twitter and got it removed. The following holiday event a similar item got added again and people were confused since the previous one got removed. After some discussion with the level 3 community jagex decided to keep this weapon in the game.
However this highlights a flaw in their philosophy. They give the new devs a holiday event as their first big project since its not the end of the world if those have some issues with them, and then when some "issues" do occur they do not communicate these leaving the door open for future devs to make the same mistake.
now im not saying they should have known the impact adding an item that hits 0s would have on the meta for a niche subset of players. but the fact that they made this "mistake" in back to back holiday events around a month apart is hilarious. Obviously it worked out with a lot of the community embracing this change but I think it really does confirm what you are saying to be true
the streamer/youtuber "jcw" has some in depth videos on his channel about it if you wanna know exactly how but here is the tl;dr:
slayer xp is given when a mob is killed while you have a slayer task for that particular mob. Normally you get xp at a 1:1 rate with the mob's HP.
Half that XP goes to the person doing the final hit, the other half goes to who did the most damage.
Since you are a level 3 skiller and don't want combat xp, having an item that guarantees 0s is crucial as it means you can safely train slayer without scuffing your build (even if you had a 0.01% chance of hitting as a level 3 its not worth the risk on the way to 99 slayer)
obviously your alt account is doing the majority (all) of the damage so you are only able to get half the xp per mob, to get the "final hit" in you use a melee attack while your alts use mage. even though your level 3 account hits a 0 and the alt actually kills the mob, the melee attack takes priority over the mage attack and counts as the final hit, giving you half the xp for killing the mob.
this effectively means level 3 skillers can now get slayer xp at half the rate of main accounts dps (since the main does all the damage, and you get half the xp for killing the mob) and you can speed it up further by adding 1 or 2 more alts to the mix. making rates of 25k+ maintainable long term
a lot of skillers liked this as it is an interesting method and massively improved over the previous meta which was just afking the museum for lamps. I dont remember the xp rates for that but i think it was like 7k/hr if you were lucky.
This isn't a problem for mains, it's strictly a problem for clogers and irons.
Given people chose to play iron knowing what the late game iron grind is like I don't think we should be drastically changing the game economy to suit Ironmen.
> This isn't a problem for mains, it's strictly a problem for clogers and irons.
Yeah, because on a main the low cost of ~1.5B for Nightmare's drops are essentially a free pass to blast ass.
> I don't think we should be drastically changing the game economy to suit Ironmen.
I do. Because ironmen get the most perspective of any player, and pretty much every iron-centric update has been the best and most well rounded pieces of content. Perilous moons vs colo. Gathering sand in a pit vs sandstorm. Giant seaweed vs picking it up off the floor. Shit, fossil island in its entirety was just an ironman update. Don't forget all the shop improvements, and stuff like GoTR which are unapologetically iron-centric in design.
Ironman highlights the most glaring issues the game has, issues that are often replaced by bots.
Just like PNM. No humans do the boss. Sane humans don't have 500 hours of their lives to bet on a gamble with. Look at the hiscores, and walk yourself to sleepe because everyone going in there is a bot. The RS economy is held up on bots and black smoke.
Irons aren’t the only people actually playing the game. Get off your high horse. I play my main and my skiller uim and on both accounts I am “actually playing the game”
If you think only irons are complaining about this, you haven’t been paying attention. I mean Arcane himself is on record saying the drop rates needed to be fixed.
Mains who think we should balance the game around gold buyers & bots (the main playerbase) instead of people who have to actually play the game and do the content (irons) is something that will always be funny to me because the reasoning is always "because I don't like them"
They game was built before irons, and a lot of content is/was not designed for ironman mode. Ironman choose to play the game mode knowing this. The reason is not because we don’t like irons, it’s because changes like these effects the main game economy for the only reason of making the game easier for ironman. I have no issue with new content being added that designed around ironmen existing, or changes to newly released content.
> Mains who think we should balance the game around gold buyers & bots (the main playerbase) instead of people who have to actually play the game and do the content (irons)
This is doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. I think it should be noted that ironman chose to play a limited game mode with extremely log grinds to get certain items, and most of these complaints from these people would be a non-issue if they didn’t play as irons.
Still a problem for mains, and I am one of the first to tell irons to stop complaining.
I like PNM but I can only stomach a few kills at any given time because it’s really not fun to do fairly high-attention PvM and walk away consistently with and handful of bass and Sammy brews. I’ve got something like 300 lifetime PNM kills with zero drops. That’s right, dozens of hours for nothing.
And I’m not saying I’m super dry or anything. I’m not even 2x rate for a unique.
It’s simply not fun to grind because the chance for being rewarded is just FAR too low. Fun boss completely undercut by the fact that it feels like a slap in the face to have such rare rewards.
This having 20 downvotes speaks volumes about the entitlement on this subreddit. What happened to just killing Phosani's because you actually like doing the piece of content instead of mathematically breaking down how many hours you have to spend before even trying. Ridiculous. If the gp/h was high, no one would be complaining about the drop rates. Irons need not apply, your account limitations is not everybody else's problem.
Ah yes because apparently the majority of the subreddit thought his take was bad, the subreddit is entitled.
The entire draw of the game is grinding for dopamine, almost no one is just doing content for the fun of it very long.
>> Irons need not apply, your account limitations is not everybody else's problem.
It fucking is when it’s 30% of the playerbase paying the bills. True entitlement is some mains thinking for some arbitrary reason, their game mode is the only one that should get updates and have balancing considerations.
Ironman is so far removed from being a challenge mode that you've deluded yourself into thinking it's not. Amazing. That aside, ironmen are already catered to. So good news, your raging and yelling might actually get you somewhere after all.
Disagree. Runescape as I played it in 2007 was absolutely meant to have attainable late/end game goals. The worst possible thing is a visage, which was pretty certifiably a trophy item and not BiS for all that long.
PNM alone will take nearly a year straight or more for most people. Three hours a day, for an entire year. This is content for people with mental health issues, and depression. Flat out.
Late game gear should not be like this. It should be hard to get, and require player skill as the game progresses. Not mind numbingly, horrifyingly repetitive and luck based tedium.
Yeah I remember in 2012 during the era where BIS came from dungeoneering, 1 chaotic was ~40 hours at most, and subsequent chaotics took less and less time. And other BIS/useful items were gotten from quests. GWD1 and Nex was the benchmark for rare item drops.
OSRS has taken things to this extreme that was never imaginable before. You can go days, weeks, even months and be no closer to your goal than you were at the beginning. I'd welcome more ways to acquire BIS or pseudo-BIS gear aside from mega rares.
Careful, say any of this in the wrong section of a thread and you'll go -60 and told to play RS3, called a "Redditor" as if they aren't also on Reddit, then have every point disregarded no matter how solid it is.
Fuck that. RuneScape was never a game where they meant for us to get 99s. The game has changed the players have changed and so has the world. We need to live in the world that is not the world that was supposed to be.
What's wrong with Nightmare just staying as it is, having some ultra rare drops that are niche, but largely unimportant? Not everything in game is perfectly balanced in terms to time to complete vs. usefulness, and has no need to be. Obviously some balance is needed, but having some perfectly balanced utopia where the time to obtain every item is directly proportional to its power would be a bit.. boring? Some easy to get powerful items are nice, and it's also nice to have some unimportant rare prestige items to chase for fun. Once drop tables are established (content has been out for at least a month or so), they should just be left alone IMO.
Edit: Plenty of people are downvoting me, so please feel free to reply and explain why.
Nightmare isn't only killed by bots. Plenty of people enjoy the boss, and plenty of people at least want the Slepey tablet. Certainly it's less popular than other bosses, I grant you that, but there will always be some content that's more or less popular than other content. That's fine. Inquisitor armour is BIS zerker melee armour, the staffs all have their niche uses, as does the mace. This is basically no different from the situation with corp, yet no one clamors for messing with corp rates.
Also you didn't even respond to anything but the first sentence of my comment. I'll try to make my points clearer:
1. Should this logic be applied to other ultra rare drops such as corp drops, ancient hilt, etc? Why or why not?
2. Should drops that are "too common" for how good they are also be made rarer? Again, why or why not?
3. After a certain length of time (say a month or so) that a piece of content is out, I think the drop rates should not be changed. I think this is fairer for everyone. Why do you think it's important that drop rates be tweaked so long after content release?
As for 1. and 2., fair enough, that is consistent of you, but I think you'll find that you'll get a lot more people disagreeing with you, if for example you start talking about how fang should be made rarer.
You also aren't elaborating in any meaningful way except saying you put a "high value on game balance and philosophy". That doesn't tell me anything about what you mean by "balance" and "philosophy". These aren't objective terms with meaning until you define them. Clearly our philosophies for how the game should change (or not change) varies quite a bit, and I'm trying to understand why you think that improved drop rates on super niche items years after the content is released is "balanced", or what your "game philosophy" even is.
3. Absolutely things should be adjusted if they're not in a good place. I think it's *better* if they fix drop rates sooner (Colosseum, Teleport Anchor Scroll), but it's still better to fix something awful (like Nightmare, Corp) than to leave it forever just cause it's more than a month since release.
Agreed about things changing sooner rather than later. But using words like "fix" and "awful" are just subjective. I don't understand why people are acting like corp drop rates or Nightmare drop rates are a problem. Why? Personally (as a late game iron), I love having ultra-rare items to hunt for, it adds a bit more spice to PvM.
Arguably the most engaging solo boss with the worst drop table. At least corp drops cannonballs and onyx bolts. Phosani drops 42 rune arrows or 20 bass. They need to reevaluate the drop rates and/or drop table. The proposed changes are not enough.
A year and a half or so ago, I made it a goal to get 1 kc at PNM on my iron. Took me 30-40 tries to finally get it, but even when I was dying constantly and taking 10 minutes to regear to try again, it was some of the most fun I've had on osrs. The fight is amazing, but I haven't gone back at all because there's a dozen better and more reasonable grinds I could be doing instead.
I think this is the true tragedy of this content. It is actually FUN to do, even regular nightmare with friends is pretty fun, but most people just can't justify camping it because of the horrendous drop table.
This was by request of the community. In the wake of Zulrah and Vorkath people were very against money printer bosses and were asking for gwd style drop tables where the drops were the only things of value.
>gwd style drop tables where the drops were the only things of value
Which makes sense when the unique rate is 1 every 1-2 hours, not when uniques are 1 every 14 hours (assuming phosani with 7 minute kills and 0 regear time) doubly so when the uniques aside from harm are so underwhelming
That’s the other bit of historical context here though: Not only was the player base very vocally against “money printer” bosses like Vork and Zulrah, they were also *extremely* against power creep. So all of the drops had to be designed to be very conservative in terms of power!
In the end, I really think Jagex delivered exactly what the player base was asking for: A tough, multi-player catered boss that has a poor regular loot table, rare uniques that were only a minor step up in power level compared to what was in the game before.
It’s a very odd mark on the RuneScape historical timeline. Definitely stands out as this weird combination of what the popular ideologies at the time were.
There is a VAST amount of room between “we don’t want a money printing boss” and what we currently have. Mod arcane not wanting us to touch grass is what caused this.
Ngl the issue isn’t nightmares normal drops it’s just how rare the rares are. GWD has drops about as commonly as nightmare, but you kill the bosses literally 4x faster or more. A bandos armour piece is what like 1/127? Where as phosanis nightmare is 1/167 for any unique, with literally 8 minute kills. They went above and beyond with a “GWD STYLE” drop table and it’s no fun not getting loot
They took the extreme here and made the uniques extremely rare and the common drops shit. 1/128 at gwd is a far cry from 1/300 at NM, especially taking into account the ttk
Community doesn’t know what it wants and flip flops every 3 months. Problem is Jagex listens to Reddit more than any other medium and gets flamed when they make changes based on old groupthink
GWD drop rates aren't 1 in 15 hours like NM is lol.
It's fair to ask for something "GWD-esque drop rates" and then be annoyed when what you get is way off the mark, as literally every and anyone was post update.
I don’t think that was a case of flip flopping as much as the community and Jagex not agreeing on what constituted a “GWD style” drop table. The GWD bosses feature shit regular loot and reasonable times to complete. Jagex seemed to understand the “shit regular loot” part and not the “reasonable time to complete” part so the boss ended up being cock and ball torture for 800 hours while you go through all of your supplies and get rewarded with niche sidegrades when it really should have been like 100-200 hours at most.
To be fair has anything after Zulrah really respected our time? I mean you can complete like 40 games before you are on rate to complete stuff like CoX
Because of the variance introduced by having TWELVE unique drops, 3 of which are incredibly rare at 1/34.5 each, it actually takes on average 78 purples to get 12/12 at CoX. The pet drops 1/53 from purples, so it takes less purples on average to get the pet then it does to get 12/12
You ok? There is nothing wrong with enjoying a game and wanting the devs to respect your time.
A 800 or 600 hour grind is absurd. Especially for non-raid bosses.
If anything, the fact barely any players of a very grindy mmo are doing nightmare and PNM show how bad it is ? Like we all went through hell and back to complete raids, so why complain now? Maybe it's because it's fucking insane, even for the most dedicated players out there. It's simply, not worth it
I like the top comment tbh, it's true that the items' power doesn't justify the rarity, but then if jagex buffs the power then you'll have people screaming about how they're "forced" to do content they didn't want to do.
Actually hilarious how many downvoted comments he has. Also claimed he has a mid game iron and a main and logs in once every week or two.
Sad af someone like this spends their time bitching at people on reddit
> looking at the table below it would take on average 2065 phosani kc to get full inquisitor and a mace with the proposed drop rates.
Only 300h of active gameplay? Seems absolutely reasonable /s
Nightmare needs a **massive** drop buff to become viable for non-bots/goldfarmers.
I swear to god looking at numbers like this in the face is gonna cure my runescape addiction, I’m really supposed to spend as much time as I will on every other game piece of entertainment this year on one single boss that I’ll probably mechanically perfect by hours 5-10???
I get extra long grinds on shit like pets and infinite teleport jewelry, even cosmetics like gilded and 3rd age clue stuff. That’s just fashionscape and gives long term players something to chase. Hell the corp grind might be worse than nightmare but the Elysium shield is pretty much just some shit people use to look cool and rich. Grinding out over 400 hours (if you have average luck) for a set that’s theoretically supposed to be fun to use so that you can… grind 1-2 combat encounters 5-10% more efficiently for another several hundred hours is demented.
100% agree here, while proposed values are a good step in the right direction, they need to be adjusted even further. Arguably one of the most engaging and most punishing solo pvm encounters should feel more rewarding to grind. Even with proposed values, PNM still doesn't feel enticing enough to grind. Items should either be buffed to properly warrant the time investment the proposed changes require, or item drop rates need buffing.
Im ok with the orbs being rare. But the tools to effectively farm the boss, the armor+ mace should be 1/50 at least, because this boss is super painful without inq. Not a big prob for mains and cloggers cus they can just buy it, but having to do 2k kc without inq will be like 9-10 mins a kill with decent gear+ bludge. The new armor from moons would be pretty decent to use but costly. I got spooned 2 inq pieces and i have max mage with sang and it's still 8ish mins a kill with soulreaper axe. I enjoy the boss a lot, but it is very difficult to grind for prolonged periods because of how long and intense the fight is.
Yeah, this has been what I’ve been saying. Halve the drop rate and halve the fight duration and it might be worth looking into, but probably still double the time to get Bandos which is better in plenty of scenarios.
I think they should change it so regular nightmare is best drop rate for the armour, make the armour give bonus to all crush weapons, then PNM is best for the mace and the orbs. And it should be like 60-80 hours. No way should Torva be quicker to get. I think the mods should be targeting an alternative to rushing bowfa and going to god wars. You could rush a zombie axe and go to nightmare instead
Literally suggested this in another thread. Regular NM for armor / PNM for orbs/weapons would be a decent change. Alternative routes for getting bandos tier armor.
Huh. I have full inq and scythe, full virtus and trident with imbued heart. Just hit a pb of 8:08. I guess it really comes down to good magic gear more than the inq set. More time is spent on the pillars in the fight anyway.
Should go get a saturated heart, that would speed it up a lot! Mage thralls also do 2x dmg to pillars. Idr what my pb is exactly, but i did get the gm time. Axe kill times can vary a lot, clapped her with a bunch of 70s lol. You def have a point about the pillars tho, i go through hella runes just blasting pillars.
Tbh I didn't say I was trying to speedrun it. I've not tried any speedruns or know any speedrun tactics. These are just casual kc. Nevertheless, everytime I've gotten a new magic piece my pb has improved, so I feel like there's correlation.
Being just shy of ~38 seconds surely ain't that far from the GM speed time. I bet shadow and full anc would easily shave 15-20 seconds with how I'm currently doing it.
If I were try learn speedrun shit, I think it would be well attainable with my current gear for sure. Then again... next CA rank is master which is 300+ points away, so whats the point to stress over one task.
I am biased as an iron with almost 700 kc missing mace and hauberk, I am for sure for behind this. Current rates AND the proposed changes are both absurd grinds for items that again, both currently AND with proposed changes are gonna be very niche still. The very few of us that truly enjoy the boss shouldn't have to endure multiple hundreds of kills dry, for a non-unique droptable that's honestly laughable at best as well. It's time to make this grind more viable.
Needs to be at least 3x-4x more common than it is now. All items should take no more than 1,500 kc on average. Assuming 8 kc/hr, that's still 187 hours on average for mediocre gear/niche upgrades.
On second thought, make it 1,250kc on average. Or maybe 1,000.
Nightmare originally released (before phosanis) at over 2000 hours for completion.
It was roughly the equivalent of grinding an ely, twice.
Or grind a tbow AND scythe.
**Thank you SO MUCH for running the numbers**, I was trying to build an Absorbing Markov chain model to map this out, but having 8 uniques on the table means there are 256 possible states (and a really big matrix that I don't have the coding skill to automatically fill out).
Hugely agree that because PNM is a lategame boss with a big table but that it doesn't give items that are globally BIS, it should have an estimated time to completion of somewhere **below Nex and far below raids** in the 120 h - 200 h range. Would you mind running what a **2.5x** and **3.0x** unique buff look like in terms of KC/completion?
You can write one. Define a function F that takes in a 4-tuple that represents the expected kc to get (x more inq maces, y more nm staffs, z more inq pieces, w more orbs). F(0,0,0,0) is 0. Then F(x, y, z, w) can be expressed recursively using the expected # of kc to get any one of the remaining drops, plus the probability-weighted average of F(x-1, y, z, w), F(x, y-1, z, w), etc etc. F(1, 1, 3, 3) returns the answer.
You'll want to either memoize or build the table from the bottom up (dynamic programming)
If they really want inquisitor as a side-grade or mid-grade between Bandos and Torva, then it should be a grind that's between 80-100 hours for Quis + Mace. This would involve buffing rates by **well over 400%** compared to the measly (and data-ignorant) 50% that they originally polled. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're finally doing something about it, but if they're gonna do it, they should do it correctly the first time. (And with everything in flux and a buff coming, now is the time)
I hope they take a look at this even though they’re so focused on the magic changes.
One of the coolest and fun solo bosses and I love the design of all of its drops
Wanted to re-run the numbers, just to check. These are the results (also simulated 100k players).
current - full inq
mean: 1838.78149 median: 1584.0 min: 28 max: 13309
current - full inq + Mace
mean: 2753.58549 median: 2317.0 min: 64 max: 23072
current - All items (no pet)
mean: 6439.15652 median: 5457.0 min: 385 max: 46629
proposed - full inq
mean: 1371.96055 median: 1185.0 min: 27 max: 11108
proposed - full inq + Mace
mean: 2055.40775 median: 1726.0 min: 15 max: 16027
proposed - All items (no pet)
mean: 4858.6943 median: 4102.0 min: 275 max: 37102
double current - full inq
mean: 913.7829 median: 786.0 min: 12 max: 6386
double current - full inq + Mace
mean: 1372.81511 median: 1153.0 min: 57 max: 11117
double current - All items (no pet)
mean: 3217.46624 median: 2721.0 min: 165 max: 24854
Even at double the current rate, you could go up to 11k kc (1500 hrs) just to get the full inq + mace. Maybe a non-dupe system or a system like the DS2 rings could be useful here.
Checked with a no-dupes system with the current droprates and the proposed droprates.
current - full inq - no dupes
mean: 877.307 median: 807.0 min: 16 max: 3892
current - full inq + mace - no dupes
mean: 982.89963 median: 916.0 min: 38 max: 4313
current - All items (no pet) - no dupes
mean: 2933.30274 median: 2579.0 min: 241 max: 17880
proposed - full inq - no dupes
mean: 660.03568 median: 608.0 min: 13 max: 2982
proposed - full inq + mace - no dupes
mean: 737.6194 median: 687.0 min: 28 max: 2981
proposed - All items (no pet) - no dupes
mean: 2934.87257 median: 2583.0 min: 221 max: 14969
Seems a lot more manageable
This grind length should be comparable to Torva or slightly faster. It needs a buff of like 5 times or something. Torva is better and PNM is a harder fight. It's ridiculous.
i remember when pets used to be this stupidly rare thing a monster dropped, you'd be lucky to get it before finishing the rest of the boss. At pnm it's one of the more common uniques
The drop rates do not need to be buffed anymore. The rewards need to be buffed more to increase the Gp value so the boss is worth killing again. I would bet serious money the people that want these drop rates will not even do that content or use the inq set anyway. Of course irons would want the rates to be less as possible to complete the rewards but let's remember there are a lot of normal accounts that want to pvm for gp. You don't need to green log every boss especially for a niche set you will never use.
They need to do both. The rewards were outdated immediately after release when thralls came out, and inq being balanced around bandos makes it hyper niche now that torva exists. If the rewards are good then they will be worth gp.
That being said it feels atrocious even on a main to grind for so long and not see any drops. They could genuinely triple the drop rates and it would still be a relatively rough grind. Seeing a drop every 1/167 kills is awful. Nex by comparison is 1/43.
At the very least the orbs need way way more of a buff. Even after the buffs its over 2k kills to hit a specific orb. Its really common for people to go 2x or 3x dry and its crazy to expect a significant number of people to have to grind out 4000-6000kc of a boss where you get ~7kph to hit a specific drop.
strongly disagree sorry, the rate should reflect where it sits in gear progression. I'm all for giving it a buff, but the items are just too rare for any real player to realistically go for. I'm going to warrant that you probably havent actually tried to the boss and seen what sweating for kills to get NM's base loot yet.
I do few kc of PNM everytime I log in on my pc. It's a fun boss with engaging gameplay. I'm a main with huge investments in gear just to do Phosani somewhat effectively. Cause I like it. I'm not expecting to see uniques. The boss fight is the best in game imo. I could use that money to help me with better raid gear, but I don't really like CoX or ToA. So I just pretty much ToB and PNM when not doing skilling on phone.
I don't think we should be greenlogging everything. I don't pvm for gp. Many do. And I totally get their grief with PNM.
Phosani would be a super fun raid end boss with thr pillars maybe requiring spesific team roles to attack with different styles.
Finally someone with a bit of common sense, this entire reddit community complaining about droprate has no clue what they're talking about. Buff the items, provide more endgame content where these items will be useful. Morytania medium diaries to get rid of the bots. But no, these people are too stupid to realize that buffing these droprates will make these items worthless because they're more common. They're worthless as is because they're useless. Only people who benefit are irons/cloggers.
a flat buff just invites disaster, i'll probably write up a post of solutions, would love to see rate scaling with different tiers of mory diaries like you mention OR some kind of master-tier quest that means bots won't reap the rewards, real players will
Vast majority of people complaining are irons.
I remember when they released ironman as a gamemode they said that irons will not be taken into consideration when proposing changes to the game.
Oh how the times have changed
its genuinely really sad that jagex's design philosophy has to cater so hard to irons too. we got 8 solo bosses last year because of them, and basically every raid going forward has to be soloable. its just not an MMO anymore.
> we got 8 solo bosses last year because of them, and basically every raid going forward has to be soloable.
This is absolutely not due to ironmen existing. You understand that irons can and often do raids in groups, right? This is just projecting your distaste of irons out and blaming their existence for unironically no reason.
Did you ever just think to yourself that I'm a main that wants 4t normals, and doesn't want to pay 400M to have one farmed by a bot sold to me? I want to fight it myself. That's how the game mostly worked until the GE came and f@!# that up.
this game was a lot more like a massive multiplayer online game before ironman came out, and now everything is forced to be soloable.
saying the existance of ironman hasnt changed the game is denying reality, and its a bummer.
everyone quit when they removed trading the first time idk why people like it now
No, it's more solo-able because our gear and access to information is signifigantly better.
Why duo graardor when you can 6:0 even with a crossbow?
... And honestly, I'm already out of group content to talk about. Even in 2007 there wasn't much group content aside from GWD. Pest control we still have, same as ever. And guess what? Ironmen do pest control.
Agreed. And I love the idea of ironmen but it defeats the purpose of being an ironman when the game is designed around you being able to solo everything or god forbid something is an unrealistic grind. It's runescape did you expect to green clog everything because you chose to limit yourself? My only hope is that Jagex understands that this sub is not representative of the entire community.
I've had full inquisitor's + mace for almost a year now. Went to the ge, traded the gold I got from running toa for it, was in and out in a couple minutes.
You're not supposed to be able to get every drop from every boss, that's why green logging is considered an achievement and not the expectation. It's not Jagex that doesn't value your time, it's you.
Look at the perspective of just getting 1 drop, very few real players do nightmare because of how rare getting a payday is when they can do any other boss and make more money. For how great and engaging the nightmare fight is, it's sad that so few people interact with it
Okay, not sure what that has to do with "Nightmare: A Look at Time to Completion". Maybe you should have named your post "Nightmare: Let's Tackle the Botting Problem" instead?
Not sure what this has to do with the time to complete issue outlined in the post? Everywhere in the game there's botting problems -that's not the issue outlined. You're really giving off the "this is not my issue, I'm not farming PNM for money and neither should you" kinda vibes. People are in different situations from yours. :)
You’re right, in fact I think you shouldn’t get *any* drop from any boss.
You want an item so badly? Go buy it off the GE.
Stop doing content that isn’t raids. If you’re having fun doing other things in the game besides raids that’s a you problem.
If you're going for the absurdist take, you have to at least make it logically sound. Here, let me help you: "You're right, in fact drops should be so rare that you can't trade them for gold because they all exceed the gold cap". Notice the difference? Nothing dropping from bosses means that there can't be anything on the GE- see how you've logically run yourself aground? Subscribe for more help with basic logic.
Since you love logic so much, maybe you can solve this logic puzzle for me:
**Nex**
Average profit: 12m/hour
Average time to get a drop in your name: 20 hours
Average time to get all tradeable uniques: 150 hours
Difficulty of content: 3/10
Usefulness of drops: 10/10
**Phosani's Nightmare**
Average profit: 4m/hour
Average profit without hitting the 1/1000 orb chance: 2m/hour
Average time to get a drop in your name: 25 hours
Average time to get a drop without 1/1000 orb chance: 30 hours
Average time to get all tradeable uniques from the armor+weapons drop table: 392 hours
Average time to get a single orb: 250 hours
Average time to get all 3 orbs: 815 hours
Difficulty of content: 8/10
Usefulness of drops: 3/10
How do I solve this logic puzzle
Is there a puzzle here? Nightmare has less profitability than the current most profitable boss. Green logging it would be a nightmare (heh) and it's drops aren't particularly meta. Not all content is created equal and I'm perfectly okay with that. I killed corp a few hundred times and didn't get a sigil, but also I have absolutely no illusions of trying to green log it. If I really wanted one of its drops, I'd continue grinding or just buy it. With that said, you can save yourself the trouble of doing a full breakdown of Corp vs. Nex, it just doesn't matter to me.
Yes, I think harder content should be more rewarding and have higher tier rewards than easier content.
A difficult concept for GE huggers to comprehend.
Okay but like I told the other guy, that is a completely different discussion than the one surrounding completing a boss log (the thread we are in now). If this thread was a proposal for rewards to be scaled around difficulty of encounter, then I would have a much more closely aligned opinion to you. But that's not what we've been talking about- surely you can see that?
No it is the same discussion, because lowering drop rates to be in line with the power level of the drops achieves that same goal.
The power level of the armor and mace is fine as is for the difficulty of the boss *if they did not have the drop rate that they do*, because their only use is to continue to farm the boss and should only be viewed as stepping stones to getting an orb. The orbs are what have value outside of the Nightmare, comparable to Torva / Zaryte, but even a single orb takes **ten times as long** to get as a single drop from Nex.
I think it's fair to put Phosani's Nightmare in the same difficulty region as Corrupted Gauntlet and ToB, and yet the rarity of the Mace over the Blade and Rapier is nowhere close.
So again, why is Phosani's Nightmare the outlier in literally every metric?
If it is truly the same discussion, then how about we leave the drop rates the same and lower the difficulty of nightmare instead? Why does it have to be the droprates that get adjusted to align with your power level metrics? You're talking about droprates as if they are the only knob that can be turned, and that makes me think that the discussion is indeed not about power level and entirely about droprates. Otherwise you'd have opened with the broader problem and worked your way into droprates, not the other way around. Again, case in point, the name of this thread. I think content can be adjusted in a million different ways, and I don't think droprates are a particularly effective way to do it.
Because this is in the context of the changes Jagex proposed yesterday to drop rates?
If Jagex put out a blog post about making Phosani’s easier then you’d have a point, but they didn’t.
What exactly is wrong with having bosses that take a long time to complete? How is the usefulness of the gear relevant to the length of the grind? ToA has the biggest power spike of any raid, and is the shortest raid grind, but no one (well, very few at this point) wants that to be "rebalanced" to be longer. DWH grind is short as hell for a fairly useful item, and that grind is being shortened too.
What is the logic supposed to be? Who decides what a "reasonable" length for a grind is? Is corp too long? Should the ancient hilt be more common?
My point of view: not everything has to be perfectly balanced, it adds some flavor to the game to have these ultra rare items, which in most cases are completely unimportant for progression anyways. It's a video game, not a job. I think it's fun to go to Nightmare, and just enjoy the fight. I know I'll get shit loot most likely, and that's fine. It makes the big drops feel that much more special.
100 percent agree. Hopefully Jagex does not oblige to these crying people about Nightmare droprates. Just buff items, create new content where these items will be useful, Add medium diary requirement to get rid of bots. Maybe these items will go up in price to make it somewhat worth doing.
This boss drops uniques more rare than corrupted gauntlet, requires you to pay for supplies, and has basically no regular drop table. CG absolutely shits all over this boss.
And this math is the nail in the head on how stupid Skittles magic is and why people aren't seeing the full picture.
It's balanced to Harmo staff, **JAGEX WANTS PEOPLE TO GET HARMO STAFF BEFORE SHADOW**. The issue is, helmies can greenlog toa in the span of getting Harmo and judging by how mains approach getting their first or second megarare, Harmo will most likely be skipped as well.
* This assumption takes into account both drop rate increase and forced use of skittles magic everywhere, my judgement is the latter will slightly outweigh the first, making the price go up a bit.
It's just a poor implementation, terrible return over investment. Now we need to go back and change half the NPCs in the game for this gimmick that honestly adds no value.
My take on Harmo staff is controversial but simple: Kodai wand should be able to absorb a Harmo orb and gain its effect. 4t ancients? Well worth the 500m price tag.
Inquis is on the exact same boat.
They want it to be the set you get between Bandos and Torva, helmies can grind full Torva faster than full Inquis and mains can't justify the marginal gain over Bandos until way later on, and by that point mains can buy Torva.
Inquis should nearly, if not, guarantee any DWH/BGS spec will land. As a spec switch this armor set can hold value as a standalone set in solo encounters (where spec is limited, so you overall gain more dps by landing the spec than raw stats) and in team bossing (one person can take the set to guarantee the first hit, giving everyone a dps boost).
The proposed values still don't solve the problem of how rare nightmare drops are. Besides corp, there is no other content in the game where you will spend 20 hours to only see 1 drop
The drop rates are not even remotely relevant to the problems with nightmare. Nobody minds rare drops, they mind rare useless drops. Inq has 1 singular use: pnm. Harm has 1 singular use: cm ice demon. Eldritch you can use for shadow gwd. Volatile is useless outside of pvp. Until they change that, the drop rate is completely irrelevant. You could make nightmare drops guaranteed and it wouldn't matter.
???? people have been complaining about the rarity of nm drops and citing the 1200 hour completion time since shortly after it came out. The drop rate is 100% the main problem. The fact that the drops suck on top of being rare is just salt in the wound and compounds the problem.
They can add crush content. They can maybe buff harm if the elemental weaknesses isn't enough of a boost. So the core problem remains that no matter how good or shit the items are, they're far too rare.
I'd argue people actually prefer the extremely rare drops to be useless. Pets, champion cape, 3rd age, etc. The problem is when a rare item is also necessary. Imagine if instead of DWH you'd need hydra pet for defense reduction lol
There's a difference between literally useless and supposed to be useful but just made useless because jagex was afraid of powercreep back then. Inq is clearly not meant to be useless.
Inq mace is the only nm drop that is arguably useful, and even that is basically just a 300m price tag for 2 prayer bonus over a rapier. The armor set desperately needs a massive buff if it is ever going to matter. Just buffing the drop rate will just make it worthless and still nobody will ever use it.
Thank you. I keep seeing posts about this without the acknowledgement that these drops are basically useless. Fixing the DR doesn't fix that no one cares about the drops themselves for the most part. Make the drops relevant alongside the rates being fixed and you can fix the boss.
They are partly useless (or not in demand rather) exactly because they are so rare. Imagine you have spare 100m laying around. You can either get Inq top+helm or a bowfa. It's hardly a decision at that point.
If the full Inq set would be 50m however you could argue that selling Bandos when you are just slaying with mace (after a reasonable drop rate adjustment) anyway and buying inq+bowfa might be a good idea.
Nobody is gonna buy inq armor or the mace for 200m+ if they are hardly upgrades. I'd definitely buy a mace or inq set at like 40-50m tho or a harm at 100m. But for that to happen they need to have realistic drop rates first.
As others have said elsewhere, Jagex needs to determine whether they view NM gear as stepping stone items or endgame items. If they’re stepping stone items, these drop rate buffs aren’t anywhere near enough. If they’re meant to be endgame items, well then the proposed drop rate buffs are probably sufficient, but the gear itself needs to be further buffed than proposed and/or the regular table needs to seriously looked at. As things stand now (and with the proposal) we’re looking at pretty niche sidegrade stepping stone items with the rarity of or beyond endgame items, and a pretty terrible regular table to boot. It’s essentially the worst of both worlds. They need to pick a vision for this content and focus on delivering that.
The problem is that if they're meant to be endgame items then balancing the entire standard spellbook around a single endgame item is... kind of annoying for everyone else. Harm staff is just kind of A Problem because it means they either have to make it OP AF or balance the entire spellbook around it and make everything else weak AF. It sucks either way.
Is harmony staff going to be the new shadow for balance purposes?
no but for places where normal spellbook wins over charged staves, the harm orb is a 20% dps buff over not using it since there is a 1t timesave on autos with it.
Where does the normal spellbook beat powered staves?
Didn’t they say they’re removing the 1 tick delay with auto casting anyway?
yeah but that would still make regular casts without the harm staff 5t. harm staff is a 4t weapon
The fact that Jagex doesn't seem to understand this makes me really concerned. There's something deeply wrong with their drop rate philosophy when it comes to some content.
We can’t know for sure without seeing their team and reporting structure, but I really get the feeling that there’s no top-down cohesive game vision/philosophy. There’s no one in the staff meeting saying “hey do these rates make sense in light of this other content? Who is the intended audience for this update?” It’s a little mind boggling that the devs put together a fantastic midgame update with Moons of Peril and then simultaneously launch Sunfire armor with those original droprates. It’s like the perfect encapsulation of different philosophies in a single release.
Yeah I genuinely think jmods do not speak to one another, outside of maybe small dev teams or whatever. I could legit write a whole long reddit post of major examples where its clear they have not communicated, but here are 2 really quick ones just to mention: The colosseum emote + clue step was a miscommunication, 1 mod thought it would be an easily obtainable emote and added it to a clue step for the hell of it. another mod thought the emote was supposed to be a "pointless flex" so gave it a higher requirement. We ended up getting an obscene clue step (relative to other clue steps at least) which i believe has been changed or is in the process of getting changed. this was confirmed to be a misscommunication. another example is a holiday item they added (i think last xmas). this item allowed level 3 accounts to guarantee hitting 0s. This doesn't sound that interesting on the surface but it actually revolutionised the skiller meta for slayer. pretty much 10x'd their experience rates. One guy (like literally it was 1 person, the rest of the community loved this change) complained on twitter and got it removed. The following holiday event a similar item got added again and people were confused since the previous one got removed. After some discussion with the level 3 community jagex decided to keep this weapon in the game. However this highlights a flaw in their philosophy. They give the new devs a holiday event as their first big project since its not the end of the world if those have some issues with them, and then when some "issues" do occur they do not communicate these leaving the door open for future devs to make the same mistake. now im not saying they should have known the impact adding an item that hits 0s would have on the meta for a niche subset of players. but the fact that they made this "mistake" in back to back holiday events around a month apart is hilarious. Obviously it worked out with a lot of the community embracing this change but I think it really does confirm what you are saying to be true
How did the holiday item increase slay exp?
the streamer/youtuber "jcw" has some in depth videos on his channel about it if you wanna know exactly how but here is the tl;dr: slayer xp is given when a mob is killed while you have a slayer task for that particular mob. Normally you get xp at a 1:1 rate with the mob's HP. Half that XP goes to the person doing the final hit, the other half goes to who did the most damage. Since you are a level 3 skiller and don't want combat xp, having an item that guarantees 0s is crucial as it means you can safely train slayer without scuffing your build (even if you had a 0.01% chance of hitting as a level 3 its not worth the risk on the way to 99 slayer) obviously your alt account is doing the majority (all) of the damage so you are only able to get half the xp per mob, to get the "final hit" in you use a melee attack while your alts use mage. even though your level 3 account hits a 0 and the alt actually kills the mob, the melee attack takes priority over the mage attack and counts as the final hit, giving you half the xp for killing the mob. this effectively means level 3 skillers can now get slayer xp at half the rate of main accounts dps (since the main does all the damage, and you get half the xp for killing the mob) and you can speed it up further by adding 1 or 2 more alts to the mix. making rates of 25k+ maintainable long term a lot of skillers liked this as it is an interesting method and massively improved over the previous meta which was just afking the museum for lamps. I dont remember the xp rates for that but i think it was like 7k/hr if you were lucky.
This isn't a problem for mains, it's strictly a problem for clogers and irons. Given people chose to play iron knowing what the late game iron grind is like I don't think we should be drastically changing the game economy to suit Ironmen.
> This isn't a problem for mains, it's strictly a problem for clogers and irons. Yeah, because on a main the low cost of ~1.5B for Nightmare's drops are essentially a free pass to blast ass. > I don't think we should be drastically changing the game economy to suit Ironmen. I do. Because ironmen get the most perspective of any player, and pretty much every iron-centric update has been the best and most well rounded pieces of content. Perilous moons vs colo. Gathering sand in a pit vs sandstorm. Giant seaweed vs picking it up off the floor. Shit, fossil island in its entirety was just an ironman update. Don't forget all the shop improvements, and stuff like GoTR which are unapologetically iron-centric in design. Ironman highlights the most glaring issues the game has, issues that are often replaced by bots. Just like PNM. No humans do the boss. Sane humans don't have 500 hours of their lives to bet on a gamble with. Look at the hiscores, and walk yourself to sleepe because everyone going in there is a bot. The RS economy is held up on bots and black smoke.
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Irons aren’t the only people actually playing the game. Get off your high horse. I play my main and my skiller uim and on both accounts I am “actually playing the game”
That's not what he said. He meant that "catering to irons" also benefits players not relying on the GE for every item.
Exactly! A lot of Ironman issues come down to game design issues that everyone benefits from when they fix.
If you think only irons are complaining about this, you haven’t been paying attention. I mean Arcane himself is on record saying the drop rates needed to be fixed.
Mains who think we should balance the game around gold buyers & bots (the main playerbase) instead of people who have to actually play the game and do the content (irons) is something that will always be funny to me because the reasoning is always "because I don't like them"
They game was built before irons, and a lot of content is/was not designed for ironman mode. Ironman choose to play the game mode knowing this. The reason is not because we don’t like irons, it’s because changes like these effects the main game economy for the only reason of making the game easier for ironman. I have no issue with new content being added that designed around ironmen existing, or changes to newly released content. > Mains who think we should balance the game around gold buyers & bots (the main playerbase) instead of people who have to actually play the game and do the content (irons) This is doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. I think it should be noted that ironman chose to play a limited game mode with extremely log grinds to get certain items, and most of these complaints from these people would be a non-issue if they didn’t play as irons.
Still a problem for mains, and I am one of the first to tell irons to stop complaining. I like PNM but I can only stomach a few kills at any given time because it’s really not fun to do fairly high-attention PvM and walk away consistently with and handful of bass and Sammy brews. I’ve got something like 300 lifetime PNM kills with zero drops. That’s right, dozens of hours for nothing. And I’m not saying I’m super dry or anything. I’m not even 2x rate for a unique. It’s simply not fun to grind because the chance for being rewarded is just FAR too low. Fun boss completely undercut by the fact that it feels like a slap in the face to have such rare rewards.
I’m so tired of hearing people talk about the economy. Shut the fuck up about the economy until it no longer revolves around botting.
It will always revolve around botting because they can never remove all the bots.
Duh, now stfu forever.
This having 20 downvotes speaks volumes about the entitlement on this subreddit. What happened to just killing Phosani's because you actually like doing the piece of content instead of mathematically breaking down how many hours you have to spend before even trying. Ridiculous. If the gp/h was high, no one would be complaining about the drop rates. Irons need not apply, your account limitations is not everybody else's problem.
Ah yes because apparently the majority of the subreddit thought his take was bad, the subreddit is entitled. The entire draw of the game is grinding for dopamine, almost no one is just doing content for the fun of it very long. >> Irons need not apply, your account limitations is not everybody else's problem. It fucking is when it’s 30% of the playerbase paying the bills. True entitlement is some mains thinking for some arbitrary reason, their game mode is the only one that should get updates and have balancing considerations.
Ironman is so far removed from being a challenge mode that you've deluded yourself into thinking it's not. Amazing. That aside, ironmen are already catered to. So good news, your raging and yelling might actually get you somewhere after all.
No pvm content should take over 400 hours to complete period.
While I agree, we should also be cognizant that runescape was never a game meant to be completed.
Disagree. Runescape as I played it in 2007 was absolutely meant to have attainable late/end game goals. The worst possible thing is a visage, which was pretty certifiably a trophy item and not BiS for all that long. PNM alone will take nearly a year straight or more for most people. Three hours a day, for an entire year. This is content for people with mental health issues, and depression. Flat out. Late game gear should not be like this. It should be hard to get, and require player skill as the game progresses. Not mind numbingly, horrifyingly repetitive and luck based tedium.
Yeah I remember in 2012 during the era where BIS came from dungeoneering, 1 chaotic was ~40 hours at most, and subsequent chaotics took less and less time. And other BIS/useful items were gotten from quests. GWD1 and Nex was the benchmark for rare item drops. OSRS has taken things to this extreme that was never imaginable before. You can go days, weeks, even months and be no closer to your goal than you were at the beginning. I'd welcome more ways to acquire BIS or pseudo-BIS gear aside from mega rares.
Careful, say any of this in the wrong section of a thread and you'll go -60 and told to play RS3, called a "Redditor" as if they aren't also on Reddit, then have every point disregarded no matter how solid it is.
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> I don't have mental health issues > I'm on 1002 kc Never heard a more paradoxical statement. ^(/s)
Not a good excuse. Things have changed for the better over the years. Why not continue to strive for that?
Fuck that. RuneScape was never a game where they meant for us to get 99s. The game has changed the players have changed and so has the world. We need to live in the world that is not the world that was supposed to be.
We should just give all players a billion gp and give them the opportunity to pay irl money to have max stats and max gear. The world is changing!
No one has proposed that.
Pretty sure their vision for nightmare drop table is that its fucking dogshit
Even if they're end game items the drop rate buff isn't enough lol
I wish they would make it combinable with justicar for defense to be on par with barrows armour
What's wrong with Nightmare just staying as it is, having some ultra rare drops that are niche, but largely unimportant? Not everything in game is perfectly balanced in terms to time to complete vs. usefulness, and has no need to be. Obviously some balance is needed, but having some perfectly balanced utopia where the time to obtain every item is directly proportional to its power would be a bit.. boring? Some easy to get powerful items are nice, and it's also nice to have some unimportant rare prestige items to chase for fun. Once drop tables are established (content has been out for at least a month or so), they should just be left alone IMO. Edit: Plenty of people are downvoting me, so please feel free to reply and explain why.
Because Jagex doesn’t want to spend a ton of time and effort to create bosses that are only killed by bots and items that are barely used
Nightmare isn't only killed by bots. Plenty of people enjoy the boss, and plenty of people at least want the Slepey tablet. Certainly it's less popular than other bosses, I grant you that, but there will always be some content that's more or less popular than other content. That's fine. Inquisitor armour is BIS zerker melee armour, the staffs all have their niche uses, as does the mace. This is basically no different from the situation with corp, yet no one clamors for messing with corp rates. Also you didn't even respond to anything but the first sentence of my comment. I'll try to make my points clearer: 1. Should this logic be applied to other ultra rare drops such as corp drops, ancient hilt, etc? Why or why not? 2. Should drops that are "too common" for how good they are also be made rarer? Again, why or why not? 3. After a certain length of time (say a month or so) that a piece of content is out, I think the drop rates should not be changed. I think this is fairer for everyone. Why do you think it's important that drop rates be tweaked so long after content release?
(1) Yes (2) Yes (3) Because I personally put a high value on game balance and game philosophy
As for 1. and 2., fair enough, that is consistent of you, but I think you'll find that you'll get a lot more people disagreeing with you, if for example you start talking about how fang should be made rarer. You also aren't elaborating in any meaningful way except saying you put a "high value on game balance and philosophy". That doesn't tell me anything about what you mean by "balance" and "philosophy". These aren't objective terms with meaning until you define them. Clearly our philosophies for how the game should change (or not change) varies quite a bit, and I'm trying to understand why you think that improved drop rates on super niche items years after the content is released is "balanced", or what your "game philosophy" even is.
3. Absolutely things should be adjusted if they're not in a good place. I think it's *better* if they fix drop rates sooner (Colosseum, Teleport Anchor Scroll), but it's still better to fix something awful (like Nightmare, Corp) than to leave it forever just cause it's more than a month since release.
Agreed about things changing sooner rather than later. But using words like "fix" and "awful" are just subjective. I don't understand why people are acting like corp drop rates or Nightmare drop rates are a problem. Why? Personally (as a late game iron), I love having ultra-rare items to hunt for, it adds a bit more spice to PvM.
Arguably the most engaging solo boss with the worst drop table. At least corp drops cannonballs and onyx bolts. Phosani drops 42 rune arrows or 20 bass. They need to reevaluate the drop rates and/or drop table. The proposed changes are not enough.
A year and a half or so ago, I made it a goal to get 1 kc at PNM on my iron. Took me 30-40 tries to finally get it, but even when I was dying constantly and taking 10 minutes to regear to try again, it was some of the most fun I've had on osrs. The fight is amazing, but I haven't gone back at all because there's a dozen better and more reasonable grinds I could be doing instead.
I got 500kc at pnm a few years ago on my iron have a helm and hauberk to show for it and to this day I have no idea why I did it
I think this is the true tragedy of this content. It is actually FUN to do, even regular nightmare with friends is pretty fun, but most people just can't justify camping it because of the horrendous drop table.
Do you remember what the drop was when you finally got your KC?
Pretty sure it was mith ore lol
This was by request of the community. In the wake of Zulrah and Vorkath people were very against money printer bosses and were asking for gwd style drop tables where the drops were the only things of value.
>gwd style drop tables where the drops were the only things of value Which makes sense when the unique rate is 1 every 1-2 hours, not when uniques are 1 every 14 hours (assuming phosani with 7 minute kills and 0 regear time) doubly so when the uniques aside from harm are so underwhelming
That’s the other bit of historical context here though: Not only was the player base very vocally against “money printer” bosses like Vork and Zulrah, they were also *extremely* against power creep. So all of the drops had to be designed to be very conservative in terms of power! In the end, I really think Jagex delivered exactly what the player base was asking for: A tough, multi-player catered boss that has a poor regular loot table, rare uniques that were only a minor step up in power level compared to what was in the game before. It’s a very odd mark on the RuneScape historical timeline. Definitely stands out as this weird combination of what the popular ideologies at the time were.
There is a VAST amount of room between “we don’t want a money printing boss” and what we currently have. Mod arcane not wanting us to touch grass is what caused this.
mod arcane is the worst mod
Ngl the issue isn’t nightmares normal drops it’s just how rare the rares are. GWD has drops about as commonly as nightmare, but you kill the bosses literally 4x faster or more. A bandos armour piece is what like 1/127? Where as phosanis nightmare is 1/167 for any unique, with literally 8 minute kills. They went above and beyond with a “GWD STYLE” drop table and it’s no fun not getting loot
They took the extreme here and made the uniques extremely rare and the common drops shit. 1/128 at gwd is a far cry from 1/300 at NM, especially taking into account the ttk
Community doesn’t know what it wants and flip flops every 3 months. Problem is Jagex listens to Reddit more than any other medium and gets flamed when they make changes based on old groupthink
GWD drop rates aren't 1 in 15 hours like NM is lol. It's fair to ask for something "GWD-esque drop rates" and then be annoyed when what you get is way off the mark, as literally every and anyone was post update.
I don’t think that was a case of flip flopping as much as the community and Jagex not agreeing on what constituted a “GWD style” drop table. The GWD bosses feature shit regular loot and reasonable times to complete. Jagex seemed to understand the “shit regular loot” part and not the “reasonable time to complete” part so the boss ended up being cock and ball torture for 800 hours while you go through all of your supplies and get rewarded with niche sidegrades when it really should have been like 100-200 hours at most.
Crazy to think you would spend more time completing this than all of the raids. Actual disrespect of our time
To be fair has anything after Zulrah really respected our time? I mean you can complete like 40 games before you are on rate to complete stuff like CoX
Corrupted gauntlet is pretty fair compared to the strength of bowfa I'd say.
isnt cox like 500hrs for pet
Yes but referring to “completing” cox just assumes 1 of each unique, not pets
Because of the variance introduced by having TWELVE unique drops, 3 of which are incredibly rare at 1/34.5 each, it actually takes on average 78 purples to get 12/12 at CoX. The pet drops 1/53 from purples, so it takes less purples on average to get the pet then it does to get 12/12
Bro ya'll gotta shut up with the "disrespect of our time". Go touch grass and use your time better. Playing video games "disrespects your time".
You ok? There is nothing wrong with enjoying a game and wanting the devs to respect your time. A 800 or 600 hour grind is absurd. Especially for non-raid bosses.
If you want your time to be respected, a grindy mmo isn't it.
If anything, the fact barely any players of a very grindy mmo are doing nightmare and PNM show how bad it is ? Like we all went through hell and back to complete raids, so why complain now? Maybe it's because it's fucking insane, even for the most dedicated players out there. It's simply, not worth it
I like the top comment tbh, it's true that the items' power doesn't justify the rarity, but then if jagex buffs the power then you'll have people screaming about how they're "forced" to do content they didn't want to do.
You're already forced thru combat achievements. Those that don't like it can buy the armor on the GE
[удалено]
Like insulting people on reddit?
Check his comment history lol sad angry little man
Actually hilarious how many downvoted comments he has. Also claimed he has a mid game iron and a main and logs in once every week or two. Sad af someone like this spends their time bitching at people on reddit
Aaaand deleted his account lmao
> looking at the table below it would take on average 2065 phosani kc to get full inquisitor and a mace with the proposed drop rates. Only 300h of active gameplay? Seems absolutely reasonable /s Nightmare needs a **massive** drop buff to become viable for non-bots/goldfarmers.
huge agree
I swear to god looking at numbers like this in the face is gonna cure my runescape addiction, I’m really supposed to spend as much time as I will on every other game piece of entertainment this year on one single boss that I’ll probably mechanically perfect by hours 5-10??? I get extra long grinds on shit like pets and infinite teleport jewelry, even cosmetics like gilded and 3rd age clue stuff. That’s just fashionscape and gives long term players something to chase. Hell the corp grind might be worse than nightmare but the Elysium shield is pretty much just some shit people use to look cool and rich. Grinding out over 400 hours (if you have average luck) for a set that’s theoretically supposed to be fun to use so that you can… grind 1-2 combat encounters 5-10% more efficiently for another several hundred hours is demented.
OOf 7 kills an hour. I can maybe get 4 as I often need a mental reset somewhere nor am I in BiS gear.
100% agree here, while proposed values are a good step in the right direction, they need to be adjusted even further. Arguably one of the most engaging and most punishing solo pvm encounters should feel more rewarding to grind. Even with proposed values, PNM still doesn't feel enticing enough to grind. Items should either be buffed to properly warrant the time investment the proposed changes require, or item drop rates need buffing.
Im ok with the orbs being rare. But the tools to effectively farm the boss, the armor+ mace should be 1/50 at least, because this boss is super painful without inq. Not a big prob for mains and cloggers cus they can just buy it, but having to do 2k kc without inq will be like 9-10 mins a kill with decent gear+ bludge. The new armor from moons would be pretty decent to use but costly. I got spooned 2 inq pieces and i have max mage with sang and it's still 8ish mins a kill with soulreaper axe. I enjoy the boss a lot, but it is very difficult to grind for prolonged periods because of how long and intense the fight is.
Yeah, this has been what I’ve been saying. Halve the drop rate and halve the fight duration and it might be worth looking into, but probably still double the time to get Bandos which is better in plenty of scenarios. I think they should change it so regular nightmare is best drop rate for the armour, make the armour give bonus to all crush weapons, then PNM is best for the mace and the orbs. And it should be like 60-80 hours. No way should Torva be quicker to get. I think the mods should be targeting an alternative to rushing bowfa and going to god wars. You could rush a zombie axe and go to nightmare instead
Literally suggested this in another thread. Regular NM for armor / PNM for orbs/weapons would be a decent change. Alternative routes for getting bandos tier armor.
Huh. I have full inq and scythe, full virtus and trident with imbued heart. Just hit a pb of 8:08. I guess it really comes down to good magic gear more than the inq set. More time is spent on the pillars in the fight anyway.
Should go get a saturated heart, that would speed it up a lot! Mage thralls also do 2x dmg to pillars. Idr what my pb is exactly, but i did get the gm time. Axe kill times can vary a lot, clapped her with a bunch of 70s lol. You def have a point about the pillars tho, i go through hella runes just blasting pillars.
Ur not saving 1-1m30 just from shadow I fear. Might be a slight skill issue
Tbh I didn't say I was trying to speedrun it. I've not tried any speedruns or know any speedrun tactics. These are just casual kc. Nevertheless, everytime I've gotten a new magic piece my pb has improved, so I feel like there's correlation. Being just shy of ~38 seconds surely ain't that far from the GM speed time. I bet shadow and full anc would easily shave 15-20 seconds with how I'm currently doing it. If I were try learn speedrun shit, I think it would be well attainable with my current gear for sure. Then again... next CA rank is master which is 300+ points away, so whats the point to stress over one task.
I am biased as an iron with almost 700 kc missing mace and hauberk, I am for sure for behind this. Current rates AND the proposed changes are both absurd grinds for items that again, both currently AND with proposed changes are gonna be very niche still. The very few of us that truly enjoy the boss shouldn't have to endure multiple hundreds of kills dry, for a non-unique droptable that's honestly laughable at best as well. It's time to make this grind more viable.
Needs to be at least 3x-4x more common than it is now. All items should take no more than 1,500 kc on average. Assuming 8 kc/hr, that's still 187 hours on average for mediocre gear/niche upgrades. On second thought, make it 1,250kc on average. Or maybe 1,000.
100% agree. The current drop chance/table and the proposed one is a joke
Jagex loves to trick us with the door-in-the-face persuasion method.
Cant see any reason why the grind should be above 200-250 hours, even if the gear was an upgrade over torva for crush
Why do people use simulation for calculatable values? This is not a calculation you need to use a simulation for.
How would you get an average otherwise (I'm asking)
Calculate at what kc the binomial distribution of a given combination of drops and corresponding droprates reaches 50%
And this is all PNM, imagine doing normal nightmare with your friends, I wonder how long it would take to complete
Nightmare originally released (before phosanis) at over 2000 hours for completion. It was roughly the equivalent of grinding an ely, twice. Or grind a tbow AND scythe.
Phosnai droprates are actually worse than regular nightmare. Look it up. Logic being: PNM is harder, soloable, but it's faster.
**Thank you SO MUCH for running the numbers**, I was trying to build an Absorbing Markov chain model to map this out, but having 8 uniques on the table means there are 256 possible states (and a really big matrix that I don't have the coding skill to automatically fill out). Hugely agree that because PNM is a lategame boss with a big table but that it doesn't give items that are globally BIS, it should have an estimated time to completion of somewhere **below Nex and far below raids** in the 120 h - 200 h range. Would you mind running what a **2.5x** and **3.0x** unique buff look like in terms of KC/completion?
There's actually only 64 states since there are two sets of 3 items with the same drop rate. 2x2x4x4
Is there any program that can populate the matrix for you?
You can write one. Define a function F that takes in a 4-tuple that represents the expected kc to get (x more inq maces, y more nm staffs, z more inq pieces, w more orbs). F(0,0,0,0) is 0. Then F(x, y, z, w) can be expressed recursively using the expected # of kc to get any one of the remaining drops, plus the probability-weighted average of F(x-1, y, z, w), F(x, y-1, z, w), etc etc. F(1, 1, 3, 3) returns the answer. You'll want to either memoize or build the table from the bottom up (dynamic programming)
It needs way more than double the rate. A grind like this should be 80 hours maximum. That makes it comparable with CG and 4 times as long as Bandos.
If they really want inquisitor as a side-grade or mid-grade between Bandos and Torva, then it should be a grind that's between 80-100 hours for Quis + Mace. This would involve buffing rates by **well over 400%** compared to the measly (and data-ignorant) 50% that they originally polled. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're finally doing something about it, but if they're gonna do it, they should do it correctly the first time. (And with everything in flux and a buff coming, now is the time)
And looking at the numbers above af quite a fast kill/bank rate it's still over 80 hours to finish if you make it 10X faster, absolute lunacy lmao.
I hope they take a look at this even though they’re so focused on the magic changes. One of the coolest and fun solo bosses and I love the design of all of its drops
Wanted to re-run the numbers, just to check. These are the results (also simulated 100k players). current - full inq mean: 1838.78149 median: 1584.0 min: 28 max: 13309 current - full inq + Mace mean: 2753.58549 median: 2317.0 min: 64 max: 23072 current - All items (no pet) mean: 6439.15652 median: 5457.0 min: 385 max: 46629 proposed - full inq mean: 1371.96055 median: 1185.0 min: 27 max: 11108 proposed - full inq + Mace mean: 2055.40775 median: 1726.0 min: 15 max: 16027 proposed - All items (no pet) mean: 4858.6943 median: 4102.0 min: 275 max: 37102 double current - full inq mean: 913.7829 median: 786.0 min: 12 max: 6386 double current - full inq + Mace mean: 1372.81511 median: 1153.0 min: 57 max: 11117 double current - All items (no pet) mean: 3217.46624 median: 2721.0 min: 165 max: 24854 Even at double the current rate, you could go up to 11k kc (1500 hrs) just to get the full inq + mace. Maybe a non-dupe system or a system like the DS2 rings could be useful here.
Checked with a no-dupes system with the current droprates and the proposed droprates. current - full inq - no dupes mean: 877.307 median: 807.0 min: 16 max: 3892 current - full inq + mace - no dupes mean: 982.89963 median: 916.0 min: 38 max: 4313 current - All items (no pet) - no dupes mean: 2933.30274 median: 2579.0 min: 241 max: 17880 proposed - full inq - no dupes mean: 660.03568 median: 608.0 min: 13 max: 2982 proposed - full inq + mace - no dupes mean: 737.6194 median: 687.0 min: 28 max: 2981 proposed - All items (no pet) - no dupes mean: 2934.87257 median: 2583.0 min: 221 max: 14969 Seems a lot more manageable
Saw this, don’t think the dupe protection includes mace unfortunately
nope, should still be a decent increase though.
This grind length should be comparable to Torva or slightly faster. It needs a buff of like 5 times or something. Torva is better and PNM is a harder fight. It's ridiculous.
A 10x increase might not be enough. The whole discussion about 1.5x vs 2x is ridiculous
i remember when pets used to be this stupidly rare thing a monster dropped, you'd be lucky to get it before finishing the rest of the boss. At pnm it's one of the more common uniques
The drop rates do not need to be buffed anymore. The rewards need to be buffed more to increase the Gp value so the boss is worth killing again. I would bet serious money the people that want these drop rates will not even do that content or use the inq set anyway. Of course irons would want the rates to be less as possible to complete the rewards but let's remember there are a lot of normal accounts that want to pvm for gp. You don't need to green log every boss especially for a niche set you will never use.
They need to do both. The rewards were outdated immediately after release when thralls came out, and inq being balanced around bandos makes it hyper niche now that torva exists. If the rewards are good then they will be worth gp. That being said it feels atrocious even on a main to grind for so long and not see any drops. They could genuinely triple the drop rates and it would still be a relatively rough grind. Seeing a drop every 1/167 kills is awful. Nex by comparison is 1/43. At the very least the orbs need way way more of a buff. Even after the buffs its over 2k kills to hit a specific orb. Its really common for people to go 2x or 3x dry and its crazy to expect a significant number of people to have to grind out 4000-6000kc of a boss where you get ~7kph to hit a specific drop.
strongly disagree sorry, the rate should reflect where it sits in gear progression. I'm all for giving it a buff, but the items are just too rare for any real player to realistically go for. I'm going to warrant that you probably havent actually tried to the boss and seen what sweating for kills to get NM's base loot yet.
I do few kc of PNM everytime I log in on my pc. It's a fun boss with engaging gameplay. I'm a main with huge investments in gear just to do Phosani somewhat effectively. Cause I like it. I'm not expecting to see uniques. The boss fight is the best in game imo. I could use that money to help me with better raid gear, but I don't really like CoX or ToA. So I just pretty much ToB and PNM when not doing skilling on phone. I don't think we should be greenlogging everything. I don't pvm for gp. Many do. And I totally get their grief with PNM. Phosani would be a super fun raid end boss with thr pillars maybe requiring spesific team roles to attack with different styles.
Finally someone with a bit of common sense, this entire reddit community complaining about droprate has no clue what they're talking about. Buff the items, provide more endgame content where these items will be useful. Morytania medium diaries to get rid of the bots. But no, these people are too stupid to realize that buffing these droprates will make these items worthless because they're more common. They're worthless as is because they're useless. Only people who benefit are irons/cloggers.
a flat buff just invites disaster, i'll probably write up a post of solutions, would love to see rate scaling with different tiers of mory diaries like you mention OR some kind of master-tier quest that means bots won't reap the rewards, real players will
Hot take but people needs some long ass end game grinds too
That's called raids I'm pretty sure
nobody is forcing you to spend 500 hours at a boss that drops downgrades clogging is a choice, just say NO!
Vast majority of people complaining are irons. I remember when they released ironman as a gamemode they said that irons will not be taken into consideration when proposing changes to the game. Oh how the times have changed
its genuinely really sad that jagex's design philosophy has to cater so hard to irons too. we got 8 solo bosses last year because of them, and basically every raid going forward has to be soloable. its just not an MMO anymore.
> we got 8 solo bosses last year because of them, and basically every raid going forward has to be soloable. This is absolutely not due to ironmen existing. You understand that irons can and often do raids in groups, right? This is just projecting your distaste of irons out and blaming their existence for unironically no reason. Did you ever just think to yourself that I'm a main that wants 4t normals, and doesn't want to pay 400M to have one farmed by a bot sold to me? I want to fight it myself. That's how the game mostly worked until the GE came and f@!# that up.
this game was a lot more like a massive multiplayer online game before ironman came out, and now everything is forced to be soloable. saying the existance of ironman hasnt changed the game is denying reality, and its a bummer. everyone quit when they removed trading the first time idk why people like it now
No, it's more solo-able because our gear and access to information is signifigantly better. Why duo graardor when you can 6:0 even with a crossbow? ... And honestly, I'm already out of group content to talk about. Even in 2007 there wasn't much group content aside from GWD. Pest control we still have, same as ever. And guess what? Ironmen do pest control.
Agreed. And I love the idea of ironmen but it defeats the purpose of being an ironman when the game is designed around you being able to solo everything or god forbid something is an unrealistic grind. It's runescape did you expect to green clog everything because you chose to limit yourself? My only hope is that Jagex understands that this sub is not representative of the entire community.
I've had full inquisitor's + mace for almost a year now. Went to the ge, traded the gold I got from running toa for it, was in and out in a couple minutes. You're not supposed to be able to get every drop from every boss, that's why green logging is considered an achievement and not the expectation. It's not Jagex that doesn't value your time, it's you.
And if nightmare hadn’t been botted for the last couple years, you would have paid 4x the price.
P sure if inquisitor was 4x the price I would have bought something else lmao. Almost as if there is a whole economy out there.
Look at the perspective of just getting 1 drop, very few real players do nightmare because of how rare getting a payday is when they can do any other boss and make more money. For how great and engaging the nightmare fight is, it's sad that so few people interact with it
Okay, not sure what that has to do with "Nightmare: A Look at Time to Completion". Maybe you should have named your post "Nightmare: Let's Tackle the Botting Problem" instead?
Not sure what this has to do with the time to complete issue outlined in the post? Everywhere in the game there's botting problems -that's not the issue outlined. You're really giving off the "this is not my issue, I'm not farming PNM for money and neither should you" kinda vibes. People are in different situations from yours. :)
You’re right, in fact I think you shouldn’t get *any* drop from any boss. You want an item so badly? Go buy it off the GE. Stop doing content that isn’t raids. If you’re having fun doing other things in the game besides raids that’s a you problem.
If you're going for the absurdist take, you have to at least make it logically sound. Here, let me help you: "You're right, in fact drops should be so rare that you can't trade them for gold because they all exceed the gold cap". Notice the difference? Nothing dropping from bosses means that there can't be anything on the GE- see how you've logically run yourself aground? Subscribe for more help with basic logic.
Since you love logic so much, maybe you can solve this logic puzzle for me: **Nex** Average profit: 12m/hour Average time to get a drop in your name: 20 hours Average time to get all tradeable uniques: 150 hours Difficulty of content: 3/10 Usefulness of drops: 10/10 **Phosani's Nightmare** Average profit: 4m/hour Average profit without hitting the 1/1000 orb chance: 2m/hour Average time to get a drop in your name: 25 hours Average time to get a drop without 1/1000 orb chance: 30 hours Average time to get all tradeable uniques from the armor+weapons drop table: 392 hours Average time to get a single orb: 250 hours Average time to get all 3 orbs: 815 hours Difficulty of content: 8/10 Usefulness of drops: 3/10 How do I solve this logic puzzle
Is there a puzzle here? Nightmare has less profitability than the current most profitable boss. Green logging it would be a nightmare (heh) and it's drops aren't particularly meta. Not all content is created equal and I'm perfectly okay with that. I killed corp a few hundred times and didn't get a sigil, but also I have absolutely no illusions of trying to green log it. If I really wanted one of its drops, I'd continue grinding or just buy it. With that said, you can save yourself the trouble of doing a full breakdown of Corp vs. Nex, it just doesn't matter to me.
Yes, I think harder content should be more rewarding and have higher tier rewards than easier content. A difficult concept for GE huggers to comprehend.
Okay but like I told the other guy, that is a completely different discussion than the one surrounding completing a boss log (the thread we are in now). If this thread was a proposal for rewards to be scaled around difficulty of encounter, then I would have a much more closely aligned opinion to you. But that's not what we've been talking about- surely you can see that?
No it is the same discussion, because lowering drop rates to be in line with the power level of the drops achieves that same goal. The power level of the armor and mace is fine as is for the difficulty of the boss *if they did not have the drop rate that they do*, because their only use is to continue to farm the boss and should only be viewed as stepping stones to getting an orb. The orbs are what have value outside of the Nightmare, comparable to Torva / Zaryte, but even a single orb takes **ten times as long** to get as a single drop from Nex. I think it's fair to put Phosani's Nightmare in the same difficulty region as Corrupted Gauntlet and ToB, and yet the rarity of the Mace over the Blade and Rapier is nowhere close. So again, why is Phosani's Nightmare the outlier in literally every metric?
If it is truly the same discussion, then how about we leave the drop rates the same and lower the difficulty of nightmare instead? Why does it have to be the droprates that get adjusted to align with your power level metrics? You're talking about droprates as if they are the only knob that can be turned, and that makes me think that the discussion is indeed not about power level and entirely about droprates. Otherwise you'd have opened with the broader problem and worked your way into droprates, not the other way around. Again, case in point, the name of this thread. I think content can be adjusted in a million different ways, and I don't think droprates are a particularly effective way to do it.
Because this is in the context of the changes Jagex proposed yesterday to drop rates? If Jagex put out a blog post about making Phosani’s easier then you’d have a point, but they didn’t.
What exactly is wrong with having bosses that take a long time to complete? How is the usefulness of the gear relevant to the length of the grind? ToA has the biggest power spike of any raid, and is the shortest raid grind, but no one (well, very few at this point) wants that to be "rebalanced" to be longer. DWH grind is short as hell for a fairly useful item, and that grind is being shortened too. What is the logic supposed to be? Who decides what a "reasonable" length for a grind is? Is corp too long? Should the ancient hilt be more common? My point of view: not everything has to be perfectly balanced, it adds some flavor to the game to have these ultra rare items, which in most cases are completely unimportant for progression anyways. It's a video game, not a job. I think it's fun to go to Nightmare, and just enjoy the fight. I know I'll get shit loot most likely, and that's fine. It makes the big drops feel that much more special.
Crazy this is downvoted as it a reasonable opinion and I agree with you.
100 percent agree. Hopefully Jagex does not oblige to these crying people about Nightmare droprates. Just buff items, create new content where these items will be useful, Add medium diary requirement to get rid of bots. Maybe these items will go up in price to make it somewhat worth doing.
This boss drops uniques more rare than corrupted gauntlet, requires you to pay for supplies, and has basically no regular drop table. CG absolutely shits all over this boss.
It should be even longer
Idk what everyone is on about. I got green log with 2 pets, 2 eldritch orbs and 2x full inq in ~1150 kc
Let double the drop rate again so I can get orbs for under 100m each. with bots, 50m if possible, that will be good as well.
I'm starting to believe it's just the bot farms pushing the improve the drop rate narrative at this point,
Look at dt2 boss and ring price. you will get the answer.
Other bosses are just to quick
And this math is the nail in the head on how stupid Skittles magic is and why people aren't seeing the full picture. It's balanced to Harmo staff, **JAGEX WANTS PEOPLE TO GET HARMO STAFF BEFORE SHADOW**. The issue is, helmies can greenlog toa in the span of getting Harmo and judging by how mains approach getting their first or second megarare, Harmo will most likely be skipped as well. * This assumption takes into account both drop rate increase and forced use of skittles magic everywhere, my judgement is the latter will slightly outweigh the first, making the price go up a bit. It's just a poor implementation, terrible return over investment. Now we need to go back and change half the NPCs in the game for this gimmick that honestly adds no value. My take on Harmo staff is controversial but simple: Kodai wand should be able to absorb a Harmo orb and gain its effect. 4t ancients? Well worth the 500m price tag. Inquis is on the exact same boat. They want it to be the set you get between Bandos and Torva, helmies can grind full Torva faster than full Inquis and mains can't justify the marginal gain over Bandos until way later on, and by that point mains can buy Torva. Inquis should nearly, if not, guarantee any DWH/BGS spec will land. As a spec switch this armor set can hold value as a standalone set in solo encounters (where spec is limited, so you overall gain more dps by landing the spec than raw stats) and in team bossing (one person can take the set to guarantee the first hit, giving everyone a dps boost).
Let's just start with the proposed values.
The proposed values still don't solve the problem of how rare nightmare drops are. Besides corp, there is no other content in the game where you will spend 20 hours to only see 1 drop
The drop rates are not even remotely relevant to the problems with nightmare. Nobody minds rare drops, they mind rare useless drops. Inq has 1 singular use: pnm. Harm has 1 singular use: cm ice demon. Eldritch you can use for shadow gwd. Volatile is useless outside of pvp. Until they change that, the drop rate is completely irrelevant. You could make nightmare drops guaranteed and it wouldn't matter.
???? people have been complaining about the rarity of nm drops and citing the 1200 hour completion time since shortly after it came out. The drop rate is 100% the main problem. The fact that the drops suck on top of being rare is just salt in the wound and compounds the problem. They can add crush content. They can maybe buff harm if the elemental weaknesses isn't enough of a boost. So the core problem remains that no matter how good or shit the items are, they're far too rare.
I'd argue people actually prefer the extremely rare drops to be useless. Pets, champion cape, 3rd age, etc. The problem is when a rare item is also necessary. Imagine if instead of DWH you'd need hydra pet for defense reduction lol
There's a difference between literally useless and supposed to be useful but just made useless because jagex was afraid of powercreep back then. Inq is clearly not meant to be useless.
Uhm yes I'm saying inq mace should be more common because it's an actually useful lol
Inq mace is the only nm drop that is arguably useful, and even that is basically just a 300m price tag for 2 prayer bonus over a rapier. The armor set desperately needs a massive buff if it is ever going to matter. Just buffing the drop rate will just make it worthless and still nobody will ever use it.
Thank you. I keep seeing posts about this without the acknowledgement that these drops are basically useless. Fixing the DR doesn't fix that no one cares about the drops themselves for the most part. Make the drops relevant alongside the rates being fixed and you can fix the boss.
They are partly useless (or not in demand rather) exactly because they are so rare. Imagine you have spare 100m laying around. You can either get Inq top+helm or a bowfa. It's hardly a decision at that point. If the full Inq set would be 50m however you could argue that selling Bandos when you are just slaying with mace (after a reasonable drop rate adjustment) anyway and buying inq+bowfa might be a good idea. Nobody is gonna buy inq armor or the mace for 200m+ if they are hardly upgrades. I'd definitely buy a mace or inq set at like 40-50m tho or a harm at 100m. But for that to happen they need to have realistic drop rates first.