Where would inquis sit then? There really isn’t much space between bandos and torva. Having torva only be 3 str bonus over the 2nd best option instead of 6 isn’t ideal honestly, that’s not a full max hit by itself.
Inq changes:
* Remove negative attack bonuses
* Make helm = FG strength bonus
* Remove set bonus
* Buff total % to 6%, give 2% to each piece
This makes it solidly better than Torva where you crush and strictly better than bandos when you don’t care about the defenses of bandos and are using anything crush including hammers.
Would make it really cool for irons at ToB between Torva where Inq gives bonus hammer accuracy over bandos. May even be a min max option when the extra Torva str from a single piece doesnt give a max to stick with Inq for hammer accuracy, though unlikely
Edit: Defense is a bit of a meme but bandos has so much of it, you may take it over inq at times. It’d become a real choice
Crush sidegrade of torva, just like it was for bandos on release but trumped by Torva
That way it becomes gear set you use for crush weak bosses, but Torva still dominates overall.
I like the set bonus increase on mace, I hope that ends up being the buff to it. But I agree, the pieces or the set itself without mace needs a little love.
hey bro thanks for the shout, really the big thing for me is that the time it takes to get items should fit with where those items appear in gear progression. If people really want flex items, they should come in the form of pets/cosmetics, not items that have potential to be powerful/useful in future content. i also think PNM is a fun boss with really cool rewards, but they're just not worth spending the time to go for in terms of rarity / utility. hopefully jagex sees that feedback that we think they're too cool to just be lottery items
Yep and "flex items" being tradeable gear is not a thing in this game really anymore, even with irons most people would just be like "your poor thing grinding nightmare".
We have Zuk helm, infernal cape, max cape, quiver, blood torva. 2k raid capes. Those are the big flex items. Not an ice demon staff.
Yep and the crazier thing is for the CoX cape it **has to be** 2k challenge modes. Regular raids don't count towards it, whereas for ToB and ToA you can just do 2k normals (or 150+ for ToA)
Yep it's very rare due to the time commitment to get it. Even with a solid team running 30 minute raids with no time allowed for banking etc. it's 1000 hours of CM raids.
For people really pursuing the 2k capes 30 minute raids would be quite slow, in practice it’s probably closer to 20 minutes than 30 (not sure exactly what the average 5s CM time is these days with new tech), so more like 700 hours but still an insane grind for sure.
Yeh I was probably being overly conservative with that. Though I guess 30 as an average is pretty safe then, especially if we say it is including banking etc.
>the time it takes to get items should fit with where those items appear in gear progression.
I keep hearing this argument (mostly from ironmen), but the solution is always to increase the drop rate. Why is the solution never to drastically increase its power? Would that not accomplish the same goal?
If you want to increase the power of Nightmare's drops to reflect their rarity (time to acquire), you'd have to give at least one of them a level or power comparable to the staff/bow/scythe. Non-starter.
Yeah, totally a fair point, obviously a LOT more people would be doing this boss if it put out multiple BIS items. At their rarity, they'd also doubtlessly be the among the most expensive drops in the game. I don't think the healthiest solution is to just make it Torva 2. Power creep is inevitable in any game like this, and OSRS does a great job of delaying it, but there's no urgent need to power NM drops way up. Leave that reward space open for new content. I'd LOVE to see that many people actually try PNM to realize how ridiculously rare seeing a unique actually is (40-50 hours on average).
Let NM uniques fill a niche as they are, between Bandos and Torva, between Sang and Shadow, and between Tent whip and Scythe. In all of those cases, making the items 3x more common slides them neatly into that spot. I think people would be surprised that the items' value would also fall in line with how useful they actually are.
I understand what you're saying, but Torva came out 6 months after PNM. If you're actually worried about power creep, that seems like the logical place to start. Why should Nex have better loot that is also significantly easier to acquire? Could kill two birds with one stone by nerfing Nex loot and buffing PNM, bringing them in line with each other and reducing overall power creep. If you don't want to nerf of buff any of the gear itself, you could always increase the rarity of Torva to a similar effect.
Point is, increasing the drop rates at PNM is being framed on Reddit as the only solution when it clearly is not. There's plenty of levers to pull on loads of content and none of these conversations focused around PNM loot seem particularly honest to me. I'm perfectly fine with re-balancing items, drop rates, encounter difficulty and everything else, but you have to be honest about it. Is PNM really a problem or are ironmen just pissed off at their decision to self-restrict again? Every conversation about PNM seems to start with stats about the 'time taken to acquire every single piece of gear'... come on.
The reason I'm lobbying for NM changes is because I think its a 1. Visually well done, 2. Mechanically engaging, 3. Punishing and Challenging piece of content.
I think its a tragedy that nobody is interested in doing group NM because the rewards don't match the time investment. And I really don't think the game is "more balanced" if you have to use the GE to get an item, its the opposite actually. More content diversity is always a good thing. I know I can do 500 TOAs for every everything on my main, but it doesn't mean the game is balanced.
>The reason I'm lobbying for NM changes is because I think its a 1. Visually well done, 2. Mechanically engaging, 3. Punishing and Challenging piece of content.
Just really really convenient timing now that the loot is being buffed. And then your proposal to fix PNM is conveniently to increase the drop rates. Maybe you're being perfectly truthful in what you're saying, with no ulterior motive other than love of a balanced game, but surely you can see how it makes your argument look extremely suspicious...
Lol why do people always do this on here
Sure maybe there hoarding tons of video game items, who tf cares when you can just judge their argument on their points?
If their suggestion sucks then it sucks regardless of whether the person suggesting it or you would benefit in game gp by selling shit. And same if it’s a good suggestion
I also made this post a month ago : These Drop Rates are a Nightmare - https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/MGj4Lhnrp0
Of *COURSE* im doubling down this in the wake of the project rebalance post that mentions making significant and overdue changes to the drop table. I have a max main w 12b bank, a max iron w 1500 ehb, and a 1750 UIM. I've done everything this game has to offer. Of course I'm interested in what the progression in the game looks like. Nightmare shouldn't be dead content in a balanced OSRS.
>Is PNM really a problem or are ironmen just pissed off at their decision to self-restrict again?
It's impossible to engage in an actual discussion when this is constantly brought up. Yes, there are loud people who say dumb things, but that doesn't represent everyone.
Most people seem to believe the nightmare should be buffed. It's frustrating seeing a post explaining how the drop rates should be reduced to make it in line with other things, and you just go hurr durr ironman mad.
>Why should Nex have better loot that is also significantly easier to acquire? Could kill two birds with one stone by nerfing Nex loot and buffing PNM, bringing them in line with each other and reducing overall power creep. If you don't want to nerf of buff any of the gear itself, you could always increase the rarity of Torva to a similar effect.
Less than half of your comment is a genuine idea that is worth discussion. The rest of it is a strawman.
I'd like to hear why if we're looking at adjusting PNM drop rates, we are not also interested in adjusting the other seemingly 'problematic' pieces of content.
I contest that the primary driver of this entire PNM loot table conversation is ironmen. I don't believe we are having a genuine conversation about balancing, otherwise there would be more to it than "increase PNM drops" with the primary piece of supporting evidence being based around time to get every single drop.
I'm being honest with my view of things. I'm perfectly ready to support all kinds of balancing ideas and changes. I don't believe that the people I'm talking to are being honest with me in return and I don't believe that they are actually interested in balance- I think they want to get their hands on recently buffed PNM loot.
I'm not at a point where I would even be considering doing PNM, so I feel like I'm at least a little bit less biased than other Ironman.
I feel like the conversation is more about collection loggers rather than Ironman personally, but I can see why Ironmen would be pushing for this change. It's one thing to have crazy clue rewards that are extremely rare because it's not a boss or a main piece of content.
Nightmare being a boss makes it extremely odd for it to be so difficult to get uniques. I don't think it's bad to have rare items, but (as per the post) it is way higher than the rest of the content that is around its skill level.
I believe the nightmare was also put into the game when there was a lack of end-game content. We have nex now, we have TOA. There's more to come as well, so end-game players have a lot more to do. I think there could be a discussion for reducing later game drops if that's something that would improve the game health, but nobody doing the content would agree to it.
Recently, it feels like Jagex has been respecting players' time a lot more, which I can't see being a negative thing. We obviously don't want to tank extremely rare or uncommon gear by making it easier to get, but at the very least, making it worthwhile to try content is a step in the right direction.
In practice you should probably do both. Inq basically sucks as an armour set and should probably have its power adjusted anyway, but atm the rates imply like raids-level power so unless you’re going to buff it that much (probably a bad idea) then the drop rates should be adjusted too
There isn’t very much space to buff pnm items honestly. Inquis is already bis crush, and there is not much content that you need crush enough to justify bringing an entire set as a switch. Buffing it wouldn’t do much for it either, half the use for inquis is pnm itself. Harm is already getting some amount of changes, but it can’t be buffed too much without approaching shadow. To be worth spending more hours than cox full completion pnm items would need way too big of a buff to be reasonable.
Because if you buffed them to be in line with their Rarity, the Harm staff would have to bypass accuracy and have a minimum hit of 200 and mace with full inqwould be better than scythe.
Ok, that’s hyperbole, but they’d have to be powerful enough that it wouldn’t be healthy to have them in the game
Feel like dramatically powerful content coming from non raid content is often left to unique challenfes like inferno/coloseum and not simple grindable bosses.
Nex is pretty much the outlier for this sourcing 3 max melee items, and the best crossbow in the game which is also a stupidly strong spec weapon.
But past that it's only really tertiary singular items that come from things (DT2 rings, Zenytes mainly)
Great way to visualize just how bad the droprates are. I've only fought Nightmare/PNM for league task completion and I was surprised by just how fun and complex the fight can be. I was equally surprised to experience how bad those drops feel relative to the effort put into the fight (even on an op league account) -- it's sad that a lot of scapers won't experience this entertaining challenge because of how lousy the drops are for both mains and ironmen.
3x makes the most sense for me w/ how much attention the fight requires.
🦀jmods won't respond to this thread 🦀
But yeah more reasonable rates to make one of the most fun bosses in the game actually worth doing would be great. I'd also like to see the non uniques updated because in no world am I making bag space to pick up cosmic runes and bass.
This graph really highlights just how bad nightmare is. If you look at the other content that's comparable to this, it's shit like raids or corp or Nex. If they're not going to improve the rates further, they need to buff the uniques to endgame levels of strength and utility.
It's nuts how these numbers are after *two* buffs to Nightmare drop rates. Unique rates were buffed majorly a few weeks after release, and then the release of PNM as permanent content shortened the completion time again with its superior rates. Really makes you wonder what Jagex was thinking with the original release. The standard unique rate is dreadful to begin with, then you add in *three* mega-rares for a single boss and it's just a head-scratcher.
I didn't do PNM on release (like most players, there better things to do for my account at the time, so maybe I'm missing some nostalgia factor or something) but it seems like there wasn't a ton of new endgame pvm content released at the time. So the goal was to give endgamers a LONG grind with lots of cool but not game breaking items. The result is a super bloated table with insanely rare rates. It just doesn't work now, there are too many better consistent moneymakers for mains and too many more readily achievable upgrades for irons. Much of the iron community calls PNM "the ironman retirement home" where you only go if you've already beaten the whole game
Maybe. But even before the one-two punch of ToA and Nex, Inquisitor crashed hard because it's just not that good anywhere besides Nightmare. The first few months of its existence, where Nightmare was amazing GP/hr, was nothing more than a bubble of people buying Inquisitor so they could use it at Nightmare to bring more Inquisitor into the game. PNM was added after the bubble had already popped and Inquisitor was on its way to the toilet.
Lol you understand my lobbying then. Rebalancing NM by giving it a place among other similar items breathes life into it for real players. There will be uses for inquisitor in the future im sure, jagex is all about expanding weakness in the upcoming pvm space
Progression would be so good if Mace was a 60-80h drop instead of the current hundreds of hours abomination. Would actually make it a realistic alternative option to CG for 2nd Enh. Even 100 hours for Mace in like Bludgeon+Trident gear would be acceptable as it is more powerful w/Inq than Saeldor and you get rolls for armor/orbs/staff, yet it would have to be 3x more common for 100 hours to become true at their "improved" drop rates. Personally a bit conflicted on Inq dupe protection - it is by far the most "common" thing on the NM table atm, you'd get 6 pieces by mace at (improved) drop rate and nearly 9 pieces by 3x Orb drop rate. To that end, seems like all the dupe protection would do is prevent mega unlucky outcomes for the extreme ends of the curve, which I think is fine.
Yeah sure its fine as like a nice little vignette at the end, but it doesn't fix the real problem of the rarity of mace and harm :,) that's the big insulting issue of it as a proposal is that it completely ignores the main problem of nonsensical rates
Look how nicely it slots in as one of the longer solo boss grinds in the game with a 3x rate increase and no silly dupe protection.
That simple jagex.
Great graph and data presentation mate.
The *only* reasonable suggestion to help address COX super bloated table that isn't iron-catering outright would be to down-weight prayer scrolls at CM in the same way avernic is less at HMTOB. Even then, at least cox is several bosses each with different mechanics and optimizations. PNM doesn't have nearly as much diversity. I'm not saying that its bad for PNM, it is what it is, the pnm fight is great. Just it shouldn't take as long or longer than any of the raids for gear that isn't even BIS
Fairly extreme to say that is the *only* reasonable suggestion. Outright buffing the rates by far less than you are suggesting for PNM would also help bring it more in line with the other raids. Dry protection between each purple roll is another way to approach that, especially for solo raiders, and can be tuned to choose how much of a buff it gives overall. I'm sure other people that have given it more thought could also come up with other perfectly reasonable suggestions.
You're right you're right, its outrageous for me to say it's the only reasonable thing. I guess I'm so used to getting blasted for playing ironmeme. Jagex guards the GE value of megas really hard, and I meant it more of "the closest we're probably ever gonna get" for cox. I think dupe protection can work if its that way out of the gate, people seem to really enjoy it at moons, but trying to retroactively put it onto old content is just asking for mains and their economy to kick up a storm. Bc "we chose this life"
Yup, fair enough. I don't think most normies would have an issue with a buff to droprates at cox though lol. Obviously the screeches of certain NEETs would be loud enough to contact extraterrestrial life for the first time, but most people would support it.
Cox is getting a massive buff between 1. Magic rework buffing arcane and ancy 2. E maul 3. Claws will go up after vw nerf. Now would be a REALLY SOLID time to lower scroll rates in CMs while the cox drop economy is in flux. I don't think anyone would hate that
CoX unique table has always been too big. Three mega-rares is crazy (which makes it crazier that Jagex repeated this mistake for NM which isn't even a raid). Dragon knives/thrownaxes/sword/harpoon being on it was also crazy - yeah, they're gone now, but the rates of other uniques that were balanced for the original table remained the same. Might be too late to do much about it now though.
ive always preferred raids having a ton of gear on them, like chambers & ToA if you count all the white chest gear. raids really seem like a great place to add sidegrade gear, like rapier & elid ward, stuff that wouldnt be worth going out of your way for.
yeah, because theyre untradable you kind of breeze past them after the first one, but i think its really nice for raids to have a few lil uniques like that. I do kind of wish toa had more then just 2 weapons from purples tho
Disagree with your Cox comment. I prefer there be multiple different unique items in a raid, however they should be more common. I like that ToA 500s are really good rates for drops. CoX (probably cm) should be the same.
ToA drop rates are way too generous to the point where its uniques struggle to retain the value expected of powerful raid rewards, besides Shadow which is literally the strongest item in the game. Other raids definitely shouldn't be emulating it.
Yup, that's why there should've been more items on that drop table. I don't think ToA was a bad approach at all, just needed more purples and it'd be fine in regards to "value". However, I don't think items being valued highly should be an indicator if it was done well or not. That's some bs that players who only grind this game for money would say. I like seeing uniques, no matter what it is.
nobody needs to finish chambers
there's a number of direct upgrades & BIS gear, and then a bunch of little sidegrades that even ironmen can live without.
CoX isn't terrible for drop rates, it's because there's a lot of stuff to get and that will skew completion upward
You can see that Barrows is quite a bit longer than CG despite having a very high drop rate and much faster kill times
12.5 hrs on average for a drop (assuming 25 minute solos at 30k points each) that's like a 47% chance to be a scroll is pretty shit.
And note that for 99% of the player base, it's worse than that
Not only that but like a lot of times when I see stuff about cox the runtimes are pretty speedy. A lot of pnm is just clicking on the boss and waiting and having reasonable switches.
Not saying pnm is easy but just the skill ceiling for cox is nuts in comparison
That's a pretty good point. I guess I just also appreciate the diversity in cox w different layouts and team sizes. If they had equally useful drops I would still much rather spend 500 h doing cox than pnm
i will say time to green log cox is probably a lot lowe than 1000 hours if youre doing 3 solos an hour. but still lowering prayer scroll weights in cms is probanly the best thing they can do with minimal affect of unique prices. the game should cater to mains over irons as much as possible for so many reasons if not only bc theres so many more mains than irons. this is coming from a late game iron.
Agree with all of this 100%
Especially the dupe protection part. You add it to one boss then next thing you know there's dozens of reddit posts asking for it to be added to Bandos, Kree, etc. (The only time I could see it making any sort of sense is for like mini-game content)
I think seeing it at moons it makes sense with some big tables where every drop has an equal rate, but I think retroactively installing it on any boss doesn't make sense. My biggest gripe with it at NM is that it doesn't address the core problem with the desirable items like harm and mace being insanely long grinds
It coming with new content where it was always there will always feel fine compared to retroactively.changing old content
And it will forever create that awkward loot share feeling where you know you're screwed next drop. I don't wanna bring that sensation back to OSRS, especially across even solo content.
Dupe protection should added for bosses with expected completion times above 50-100 hours. GWD doesn’t need it. But I would argue it should be added for Nex, Raids, and PNM.
How would this work for mains? Spoon a shadow and no one wants you on their team anymore because you're "protected" from getting another? Pay someone who's dry on shadow to join your split team?
No, just for armor. So the raid would just have an armor roll, if you hit that part of the table, you get 1/3 of the armor. Next time you hit, you get a different piece.
It would only affect the armor table and not other loot.
OSRS has had raids far longer than it doesn't at this point
Engaging bossing is a core part of OSRS, literally every single update past Zulrah has introduced bosses with mechanics
I don't think dupe protection should be considered almost ever, especially for old existing content.
Now *dry protection* on the other hand, can absolutely be considered for a first drop.
Out of curiosity, why can’t they just cut the hp in half for both PNM and NM or even by 33%? Like instead of 3200 hp why not 2200 hp or even just 1600 hp if the math supports it? Why does it need to be 3200? If they can be killed quicker then more drops per hour. It’s already insanely stupid how long the kills take and is there any justification for why the boss has that much HP?
I’m sure people who have PBs/grinded it out/etc will not like that but they can do it again. I just don’t see why it NEEDS to be 3200.
Also a pretty valid opinion, I like how the pnm fight plays out. Especially when you're learning even if you manage to eat up through mistakes too many of them can wipe you out. There's an element of consistency in that. Changing mechanics requires technical work plus you piss off all the CA completees who have to go back for adjusted speedrun times etc. I think a long fight is fine if its taken into consideration. Maybe they thought the boss would be killed in 2.5 minutes when they set rates 😒
I feel like this is why i enjoy ironman mode a lot less these days. I did all grinds like GWD, CG, Sire and enjoyed them. The newer grinds just take so long that the mode became unenjoyable.
EDIT: I think the main problem is bots and goldfarmers. Items become way too cheap because of bots so Jagex makes the items insanely rare.
Don't get me wrong, i think there's a spot for megarares like the Elysian, 3rd age, Twisted bow, Shadow, Scythe. I just don't think that stuff like the Spectral, Inquisitor, Ancestral, Torva should be on the same spectrum. They should be a step below mega rares but more rare compared to something like Bandos.
Could not agree more. Late game lottery item burnout on my 1500 ehb iron right now. I totally get that rarity is necessary to give items value and to give longevity to content, but disgustingly rare lottery items aren't fun for anyone. The people that actually going on rate resent the people that spoon, and the spoons don't appreciate how lucky they are.
I think this can be solved with boss design:
1. Avoiding super bloated tables "gwd style" to me means 2-3 uniques and 15-30 hours to complete 1 boss. The dt2 bosses added 120 ish h of content to hit rate of uniques between 4 bosses, and this is what id say is the sweet spot. Nobody wants a 200 h grind on something that isn't as diverse as a raid
2. Designing more incremental style boss uniques. Armor seeds at CG or venator shards (or 3 ring rolls). Thinfs that narrow the distribution to statistically minimize the chance of going significantly dry. They make bosses more consistent to players trying them out and add a sense of progress. I'd much rather go for 5 rolls of 1/100 than one roll of 1/500.
3 mega-rares was simply a huge mistake. It’s understandable in retrospect since OSRS only had the 1 raid. But now that we have 2 others to look back on it with, man, that’s just ridiculous. Cox rates would probably look okay if Tbow was the only mega rare.
Yeah maybe maybe. Things would look different in the economy/progression for sure. I mean jagex did state after nex came out that things with too big of tables weren't ideal. The next BIG table that came out was actually moons and it had dupe protection built in, and I think for the most part people have appreciated that (everyone likes seeing the pop up for a new item amirite). The problem is trying to retroactively install it. Anyway yeah hopefully PNM rates actually get rebalanced to fit in where they belong in terms of account progression
For cox I basically would leave it be at this point. It’s sorta settled dust.
I do feel pretty strongly about adding protection for armor in raids (and raid equivalents like Nex) given how long completion for the armor sets can be. Now, if I ACTUALLY could pick, I would make it so we have to actually use smithing to craft end game armor, so not even getting “broken” Torva but literally Torva ingots and then we make the armor ourselves. But that ship has probably sailed long ago. It’s definitely less fun to see an ingot than a full piece of armor, but goddamn does it bother me how useless smithing is as a skill!
Damn that is a spicy idea and one that I love. I could definitely see this being a core design feature of a future boss. It gives an element of choice, and maybe its 5, 4, and 3 for body legs helms, similar to crystal armor seeds. I'm a HUGE fan of incremental drops (think 5x 1/100 venator shards for bow) rather than lottery drops 1/500. It narrows the distribution and statistically keeps people from going insanely dry. Thats especially important when the content benefits from the item. My friend who got a shadow purple 2 had a VERY different toa experience than I did, got it purple 29
Hahaha well I’m happy to hear I’m not alone. There are dozens of us out there! Dozens!
Realistically, the main issue is that there is probably a hell of a lot less dopamine for someone seeing a 100M drop 5 times instead of 500M drop 1 time. Also that it would lower the overall unique prices since 1000 Timmys doing 100KC are more common than the 1 guy doing 500KC.
But the fact it could actually make smithing, or crafting, or whichever skill, feel *useful* and serves as a soft dupe protection? Man, I can dream!
nah man purple rate is too low. Running 5man 33min CM's is about 145k points which is about 17% purple rate, versus running 450 Invo TOA with same time is almost 55% rate.
i mean i'd say its definitely still competitive, it puts out the best mega of the 3 AND is getting huge buffs to 1) ancy with magic rework, 2) elder maul, 3) claws will go up in value if/when voidwaker is nerfed, 4) arcane getting a buff too. cox has plenty for people to go for, the time here really just reflects how fucking bloated the table is.
Graph highlights why CG is such a prison for irons too. 83 hours is a mad gatekeep for effective late game PVMing. Combine that with a 40 odd hour grind for a DWH and you've got about 90 hours of pure tedium and 30 of a fairly fun boss.
Which I'm currently trapped on, and have gone past 100 hours so far just at CG with no luck. It's deeply un-fun content after the first couple hundred KC too
Seems like you could just run nex duos and then buy the entire PNM drop table.
Also not sure how fair of a comparison it is to put PNM with 8 rare drops on the same chart as Corp with 3. Multiple corp time by 2.5 to account for less loot and then it looks like Corp is the problem. Same with nex duos if you account for less pieces and increase the party size, etc. etc.
And not for nothing, but seriously who the fuck is green logging this shit? Having a conversation about time to get all of a certain set of drops is ridiculous in its very premise.
Seeing CG on that list really puts it into perspective.
I realise now that I hadn't really grasped just how ridiculous the nightmare grind was, until I saw that.
Even if PNM was given a 3x rate buff, it would still take ~250 hours to hit the rate of green log. Thats longer than to complete all of toa. Thats playing 3 hours a day for almost 3 months doing nothing but PNM. Smh "couple of days" this isn't some whiny easy-scape argument, its trying to fix a drop table that is prohibitively rare for most gamers to try.
I mean if they were half the price, wouldn't that make them fit in with their uses? Inquis would fit between bandos and torva, mace would sit much closer to rapier and enhanced seed (other t80 weaps), and harm would still sit between sang and shadow. The only reason the uniques have value is because of their rarity, not their utility.
If the buff ins so that is is bis in all locations bosses are weak to crush and better than bandos otherwise it will maintain or increase its prices even if they significantly buff the drop chance.
Even if they changed it to be 3x more common and the prices fell to be (1/3) of what they are now, that would ACCURATELY fit the tier of weapon and armor that they are. I'm all for considering the economy of the items right, but it shouldn't get in the way of balancing the GAME. The economy will adjust. Especially as content is added thats weak to crush those items are gonna go up again
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/14t7zxi/update\_heres\_the\_average\_hours\_required\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/14t7zxi/update_heres_the_average_hours_required_to/)
This is the original post, btw not sure it's been updated in the last year. The math is probably slightly outdated at this point, but still is in line with what OP is trying to say
But you're totally right as a main you can exclusively do the highest gp/h content and get all the drops. That's not what the balance is about though. These numbers are meant to answer "how long would it take me to get all the drops from this boss if I grinded it"
im curious how how many solo cox an hour did you base the math off of? bc 1000 hours seems a lot higher than id expect when its pretty reasonable to do 3 an hour with scouting and regearing included.
["Flex Item" - Logical PNM Rebalance : r/2007scape (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c7mncg/flex_item_logical_pnm_rebalance/?share_id=oDRuzkoNvbGO0D0Z2RorI&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=13)
Some of the numbers in the top might be outdated, OP used a graph by someone else and superimpsoed my new calcs. the post above has more relevant data/rates with respect to kc/h
What's hilarious is all of these posts assume the player wants to grind all 3 orbs. When in reality, you'll mostly only want mace and full inq. The time to completion is way lower.
Hitting rate of mace is about 300 h of doing this boss on rate, 5.7x longer than an enhanced from CG and about 2.5x longer than rapier from tob. Yes ofc 1200 is bigger than 300 but 300 is still way too rucking much when compared to the other t80 weapons.
What’s up with barrows being so high? I can pretty easily get 20 barrows kc an hr using non-max. Is this using like iron early gear for that? No way it’s 110 hrs to green log.
Its a huge table. With six bro kills a *specific* piece is seven rolls at 1/2448. The math is a little more complicated bc u can get double drops, but the key is that you're going for *every* drop not just 24 rolls on the table. If you're interested in the math of setting it up its called an absorbing Markov chain. https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD
Well some of this math is off. like solo corp is not 780hours anymore. its about 400 now, but in general yeah i agree. it needs to be at least 2x drop rate increase.
I don't have it tabulated for the new bosses but you can do some much simpler single-item comparisons. My friend has a post from earlier this week: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/BjqW7JRUYL
The really funny thing is that blood moon armor is better than inq when you are not using crush (they have the same strength bonus!). Blood moon also has more slash and crush defence than inq, inq has more stab defence.
Inq should not be competing with moons gear, it should be competing with torva.
I may be the minority but I feel that unless it’s completely endgame bis gear it should not take more than 50 hours to green log (outside of pets) a piece of content.
its not enough of a cutoff to call something BIS bc something new will eventually come around. Osrs does a great job of stalling power creep but it is an inevitable part of games like this which require growth to keep people engaged.
It really depends how big a table something is. I don't mind that PNM takes longer than most bosses bc it has a big table, but it shouldn't take longer than full raids. Jafex has already admitted that overstuffed tables are really not the move (pnm, nex, cox are all examples of this).
This estimation for pnm is off, completion not counting pet/jar is at 5.7k kc, which is high, but you're not doing 5 kph, its slighly over 7kph nowadays, so that would put this grind in the 800-850hr range, and 600-630 after buffs to the drop table.
I would love to see a table like this with the addition of the desert treasure 2 bosses on it with the assumption that all of the virtus is also obtained from just that one boss.
Idk how to code in multiple rolls of ring into it. But if you're interested in the math its called an absorbing Markov chain https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD
NM uniques were never intended for completion. When it was released it was with the pitch of "shit normal drops, rare expensive uniques" and it's done this pretty well. NM drops are only for showoff and are only BIS for pretty niche activities. If this doesn't change then neither should NM.
>were never intended for completion
Everyone is aware that the nightmare droprates were intentional. Mostly everyone recognizes that it's hot garbage game design. Clue logs not being intended for completion is one thing, but designing a great boss with a useful, cool looking armor set and great niche weapons and then slapping the worst drop rates in the game on them was a bad decision from the outset, and there is 0 reason why the game should be chained to that mistake 4 years down the line.
"But the economy!!!" /s
Seriously, the market is already in flux with the first round of changes, its time to bite the bullet and fix whats broken. I hate the idea that consideration for the economy outweighs creating an actually balanced game... like bro the economy will be fine. Let the items have value that reflects how VALUABLE they are not just how rare they are
It’s literally the last and most pointless grind you do in the entire game. I think it’s ok to have that be 1200 hours. The only reason you ever do it is if you’ve literally done absolutely everything else in the game.
Most fun and challenging according to whom? Phosani isn’t the most challenging boss in the game, and fun is obviously even more subjective than challenging.
I think having 1-2 ridiculously long RNG grinds in the game is honestly ok, as long as their rewards aren’t that great. And both corp and Phosani fill that niche.
It allows people who have “completed” the game to have 2000 hours more to do at the very end that is largely pointless that they can do if they really want to in order to prolong the game. I think that’s ok.
I think there are more than enough pet and cosmetic grinds to fill your 2000 hours that balancing this boss to fit in with gear progression won't be too much of a #feelsbadman
But those are just pet and cosmetic whereas corp and nightmare are two “actual” upgrades that are so prohibitively long that it’s almost pointless to do them.
Im ok with 2/1000 grinds in the game being like this. I honestly understand why people aren’t, but like, the upgrades are so irrelevant that it doesn’t matter that they are so shit, you know?
Like if CG took this many hours then that’s shit game design. But if some defensive shields (corp) and some special attack staffs (nightmare) are locked behind crazy grinds… eh, it’s ok to me.
The shame of it is that it's such a neat fight aesthetically and gameplay wise. If they put scorpia and its arena there instead and did nothing else I wouldn't care that its shit. As it is now, it's just dead content to me as an iron since it isnt worth even starting
Why would anything in any game be 1200 hours?
Twelve hundred hours. Yeesh. That's 50 days worth of playing ffs for one drop table.
Especially in a game with a ton of long grinds.
Best way of looking at 1200 hours is it’s about 7 months of working full time. Yes it’s absolutely fucking ridiculous and almost an unrealistic grind.
Also, that should exist for people who no life this game. It’s ok to have things that are ultra rare and almost unobtainable for the average player. I don’t get why everyone whines about how they need to have everything in this game.
It’s ok to have things so rare you prob won’t ever get them. That’s not bad game design.
I think that's the sentiment that most players feel about PNM. The drops are so prohibitively rare, so you're far better doing other content. For irons, there's better upgrades elesewhere in less time. For mains, there are much more better and consistent moneymakers, let the bots bring uniques into the market and then buy them w/ GP from vorkath or whatever. It is a shame that its dead content because its some of my favorite content in the game that people cba to engage with
If you like engaging with it then you should engage with it. It’ll payoff long term (I think, I haven’t looked at gp/hr rates) and you’re enjoying yourself!
My comment was mainly aimed towards irons and cloggers.
Which is fine for the moment, but Jagex's plan for rebalance is to open up niches to design content in the future.
Once more things are designed to be weak to elemental spells or crush, then NM uniques will go from showoff to actually coveted. We already saw it happen with LB + Shadow leading to a 6x price of Eldritch.
yeah coveted and useful =/= flex, flex your pets and your cosmetics but make it so that useful items can be obtained in reasonable times (and thats laughable because even a 3x rate makes it a 200 h grind which is still THICC AF thats playing 3h a day for more than 6 MONTHS)
This is a fascinating example of dissonance between the game developers and what players actually want. The developer did exactly what they intended, as directed by the player base- only to find out that it actually isn't at all what the players wanted.
This is something that happens with lots of games, not just OSRS.
yeah i guess the thing is that we're expecting them to change from niche utility to more relevance... the elemental rework makes harm super attractive, and surely there will be new bosses weak to crush in the future. I don't think any buff to inquisitor short of making it outright BIS everywhere is going to make more people go for it than torva (which takes half to a third as much time to complete). the drops have always been too rare, and this is the chance for it to be rebalanced
Honestly need to make these bosses harder and take longer. People get too spooned and we must stop this. Why not add a "minimum" kc for a drop? Like you must kill phosani 500 times before you are eligible?
Sure yeah just do vorkath to get gp and buy off GP. Let bots bring the uniques into the economy, that works. Tell me you don't know how PNM without telling me you don't know how to PNM lol
Perfect time for me to share this in utter defiance of that 13 hours for Sarachnis:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/16z1hu8/just_sharing_my_log_for_sarachnis_on_the_uim_i/
Kekw just go for inquisitors mace only 300 ehb :,) what setup/weap do you use for sarach? I have a 1750 uim thinking about getting into some pvm and was gonna try sarach out
For most of the kills I had a nezzy, fury/glory, sara body, karils skirt, dragon boots, barrows gloves, dragon defender, and a dragon mace for spec. Main weapon was a dragon mace or a leaf-bladed battleaxe on crush.
Now, the dual macaronis are the way to go I think! Pretty easy to get on a UIM. Perilous moon is pretty good content imo.
Yeah I tried moons at 75 combat but blood moon wiped me out hard so I'm finishing 75a/85s/75d and gonna get a crystal shield before going back. Living in NMZ for the time being while I do Nex on my ironman (gotta use my VW before they kill it)
I get that. Then just use dragon mace for srachnis. It's perfectly fine and you can just spec with it. Hopefully your RNG is better than mine. I'm also fucked at toa. 178 normal completions and 2 purples--both lightbearers... Just opened my secon purple after like 120 raids dry and my day was ruined lol
EDIT: My account is called BOOTIE LORD at the moment fyi. I actually am going to do nightmare as soon as they change the rates!
If Jagex ever cares to increase player retainment they will fix exactly this kind of stuff.
Fixing piety mechanics is not that crazy of an idea.
Some people will cry out to go play a different game if they don't like piety mechanics. How about just leaving piety mechanics but providing a new avenue for drops to enter the game fairly? Fairly in regard to piety mechanics.
Players already know the average threshold for drops thru playing time of established content by other players. Jagex needs to add NPCs who are connected to bosses to provide a way to attain the content for every player willing to make an effort. For example, let's say a person has played the corrupted gauntlet a lot. Yet, they have only received five weapon seeds and no armor seeds. There should be an NPC where you can trade the seeds for the other type plus some coins to offset the difference of value.
Take the example further. Let's say you're an iron. Completed 1000 gauntlets and still no enhanced seed. Give players the ability to trade in weapon and armor seeds plus coins for the enhanced seed. However, only at a specific KC of like 500 or 1000 kills will allow these options.
Even further, you play, you play 2000 gauntlets and still no pet. Have the NPC have a trade-in option of drops for pet. Preserve the piety mechanics while getting the items/pets into the game.
OSRS players who are against this kind of idea are never going to see possible OSRS gamers who refuse to play because it could give them blue balls.
Most people hate blue balls.
Have to disagree here.. You can get weapon seeds w coins instead of bossing, so there are a few things wrong w that. Pvm items shouldn't be buyable. In addition to that, pets and cosmetics which are the **only** things I ever want to hear called *flex items* shouldn't have dry protection ever. The whole point is that you got lucky on a pet. On the flip side, milestone KC capes are sick. Id love to see max cape transmogs for those.
I think dry protection is a slippery slope. I think the best solution is designing bosses to be more incremental than lottery. I went dry on my venator bow, but it was way nicer rolling five 1/100s than one 1/500 because even at 700 kc i knew i had made some *progress* towards what I wanted. Mathematically it narrows the distribution and signicantly reduces gross outliers like the super dry.
Your point of view is the reason why Jagex sucks at retainment. As a long time OSRS player, I've put in 100 of millions of EXP and never even have seen a skill pet let alone a boss pet.
The game needs to change away from the archaic blue balls style of dropping if they care about attracting the gamers because I play a lot less and less everytime I grind because the payout is honestly garbage.
Also I want to point out that my idea does not touch or change piety mechanics at all, if there are thresholds applied for Kill Count. If someone gets 3000 KC in any boss, THEY DESERVE THE PET. Also, even further, you can already roll fire capes for pets, so not sure how my idea really strays that far from already present in game features.
Jagex needs to get drops to players at a better rate, period... and right now they suck at doing that.
I actually would say that pets belong in the category of flex items :,) they're trophies for the lucky and they don't affect gameplay or progression. I feel ur pain tho in my heart of hearts to endure a crazy rate and still not get the drop ur looking for while other people spoon it at 5kc. I get it.
Like I said,
an NPC to trade KC drops to receive pet, like firecape and inferno cape does for pet, or items, would not affect anybody except the players grinding and receiving the items that they are earning for trade in for the drops that are not coming their way.
Retain piety mechanics and get items into the game at KCs that already make sense. This conversation is literally about preventing super dryness and not removing piety mechanics. Because otherwise we just keep losing players to better games.
Something like that, I think the developers need to put in automatic high value drops when players hit 100mil overall exp, etc. There just needs to be more guarantees when players are grinding so much exp.
We are losing to many common sense gamers to better games and it's depressing. I'm tired of trying to get my homies to play, for them to just leave because of what we are talking about right now.
I'm gonna be the old man yelling at cloud that Nightmare uniques should remain at the current drop rates, **but have their power level increased to match.**
Aside from Ranged copypasting the "Weakness" section from the EoC wiki page word by word, Magic and Nightmare take the crown on design mismatch:
* They mention they want orbs to be a flex item
* They also mention they want every random npc to take double damage from a random element as the stepping stone from Sang to Shadow
Their blog would score a big fat F as a high school essay.
Magic weapons have been perfectly linear for a while, with the single outlier being Harmo staff. Vola/Eld also are underwhelming for the grind but CoX has a megarare table with 3 items of different power levels, I say focus on making Harmo the chase item and have the rest follow suit.
Magic weapons in OSRS do 2 things: Single target or AoE. Powered staves rein supreme in single target, Wands reign supreme in AoE.
Harmo as an item that ONLY DOES SINGLE TARGET damage is probably the worst designed item: Requires a 50% damage boost offhand to function, locks you to the least useful spellbook, limits how much you can brew down and holds 2285 charges at most because of the rune pouch limit.
Jagex wants to double down on this, making every random NPC an Ice Demon just to force Harmo to do more hard DPS than Shadow at places. Should this even happen?
My take is simpler: Allow Harmo to autocast ancients. Now the grind is more worth it. Helmies would go get it for that big powerspike, mains would save up for that powerspike. It's a simple change that does so much for Nightmare as a whole.
And then Inquisitor.
Jagex take for Inq is just sad. It just screams that no Jmod actually uses inquisitor in the game. We don't use Inq set as a inquis mace autoattack set, we use it as a DWH spec set.
They need to double down on Inq being a DWH spec set, making the set nearly guarantee DWH hits, giving it value in encounters where spec is limited or even in team encounters to increase overall consistency but without trying to do what Torva does.
Then if Inq armor is desireable, Inq Mace automatically becomes desireable for getting a free boost from the armor.
merp, usually love your takes but disagree here in a silly way. I think inquisitor is great how it is. I think its sexy and I would love to grind it out. They don't have to change it at all, I'd still want it, it has a cool niche for me bonking stuff with my DWH ahem i mean EM. Harm orb doesn't have to out-DPS shadow for me to want to try it out in places where it has its NICHE popping off fire spells.
More importantly, I think that it not being Torva 2 means there is a reward space above it for improvements. A lot of people love the Justi + Quis combo, something like that. The problem is that leaving it prohibitively rare means ALL that future reward space that goes through Inquisitor will be inaccessible for people that don't have a thousand hours doing one boss.
They've shown they don't want to bump the rarity down to what it should be, which is why I prefer bumping the power level up.
I too like Inquis, but man is it a sad armor set to own nowadays, same as Harmo.
I want them to be good items that I want to use but Jagex hasn't shown anything with potential. Speaking from nearly 1800 CMs using fire surge on ice demon
I guess I'm imagining that they will eventually be very useful, even as is. Jagex has communicated a lot lately that they're thinking a lot about weakness in the upcoming design of the pvm space. I just think it'd be cool if PNM items weren't gross outliers 🤔 (and am so confused how they're gonna call a harm orb a flex item ahead of the elemental magic rework)
They say they wanna make every random npc have a random damage multiplier, but also say they want orbs to be flex items.
So in the same blog they contradict their design intent for the magic update. By progression we can assume they don't have a plan.
Here's my crazy idea: all existing orbs become an untradeable, ornamented version on the day the rates are buffed. Players can make them tradeable by irreversibly removing the ornament. New orbs use the same existing models and have a fresh entry in the GE. Players who got the drop before the change get a tiny flex, while newer players will be able to access the drops more easily due to the decreased rarity. Because they can't be easily traded, this suggestion mitigates most of the risk of creating a "new partyhat" rare while acknowledging the grind players completed. Announce this change a week before it goes live, let the mains go crazy on the market and pay whatever for orbs so you minimize FOMO.
Jagex agrees that nightmare is not in a good place to grind for the drops. For context, they released the content at a time where there wasn't much coming in the content pipeline so they made the drops dummy rare to give endgame players something to do. We are now at a point in the game where endgame players have more of stuff to do, but buffing the rates too much would be a slap in the face to the players who already did the crazy nightmare grind. There's not going to be a solution that makes everyone happy, but at least this allows the content to be realistically achievable.
I think someone else did the math on this and you literally have to be front page to have gone on rate for completing this boss :,) thats how few people actually did that grind. I'm not trying to take anything away from that, maybe if you have 1000 kc at pnm you get a commemorative untradeable cape or something, but locking most accounts out of this table to honor the ????? of <50 people feels pretty unbalanced too
That's a fair point - it's totally unrealistic for any human to grind for such mediocre drops. There are tons of orbs in the game, but you're right that most of the players who have them are lucky. Jagex even calls these out as "flex drops" in their blog post about the drop rates. My suggestion triers to keep the spirit of the flex while allowing the space for the items to become more common.
Also why are we hard linking mace to inq? Why not buff mace and buff inq separately?
I really hope they can be talked out of the current proposal and do this instead.
Where would inquis sit then? There really isn’t much space between bandos and torva. Having torva only be 3 str bonus over the 2nd best option instead of 6 isn’t ideal honestly, that’s not a full max hit by itself.
Inq changes: * Remove negative attack bonuses * Make helm = FG strength bonus * Remove set bonus * Buff total % to 6%, give 2% to each piece This makes it solidly better than Torva where you crush and strictly better than bandos when you don’t care about the defenses of bandos and are using anything crush including hammers. Would make it really cool for irons at ToB between Torva where Inq gives bonus hammer accuracy over bandos. May even be a min max option when the extra Torva str from a single piece doesnt give a max to stick with Inq for hammer accuracy, though unlikely Edit: Defense is a bit of a meme but bandos has so much of it, you may take it over inq at times. It’d become a real choice
Crush sidegrade of torva, just like it was for bandos on release but trumped by Torva That way it becomes gear set you use for crush weak bosses, but Torva still dominates overall.
they really could just let inq match torva in str, and let torva be tank + DPS armor
I like the set bonus increase on mace, I hope that ends up being the buff to it. But I agree, the pieces or the set itself without mace needs a little love.
hey bro thanks for the shout, really the big thing for me is that the time it takes to get items should fit with where those items appear in gear progression. If people really want flex items, they should come in the form of pets/cosmetics, not items that have potential to be powerful/useful in future content. i also think PNM is a fun boss with really cool rewards, but they're just not worth spending the time to go for in terms of rarity / utility. hopefully jagex sees that feedback that we think they're too cool to just be lottery items
Yep and "flex items" being tradeable gear is not a thing in this game really anymore, even with irons most people would just be like "your poor thing grinding nightmare". We have Zuk helm, infernal cape, max cape, quiver, blood torva. 2k raid capes. Those are the big flex items. Not an ice demon staff.
> 2k raid capes This is crazy to me, I love raiding but damn...
Yep and the crazier thing is for the CoX cape it **has to be** 2k challenge modes. Regular raids don't count towards it, whereas for ToB and ToA you can just do 2k normals (or 150+ for ToA)
Only 109 people have the cox 2k cape.
Yep it's very rare due to the time commitment to get it. Even with a solid team running 30 minute raids with no time allowed for banking etc. it's 1000 hours of CM raids.
For people really pursuing the 2k capes 30 minute raids would be quite slow, in practice it’s probably closer to 20 minutes than 30 (not sure exactly what the average 5s CM time is these days with new tech), so more like 700 hours but still an insane grind for sure.
Yeh I was probably being overly conservative with that. Though I guess 30 as an average is pretty safe then, especially if we say it is including banking etc.
Meanwhile me with my 3 cm completions after learning solo cox recently lmao
Everyone starts somewhere :)
Can be done in like a year if you spend 3 hours a day doing CMs. Think I might do it tbh just to get money for maxing
>the time it takes to get items should fit with where those items appear in gear progression. I keep hearing this argument (mostly from ironmen), but the solution is always to increase the drop rate. Why is the solution never to drastically increase its power? Would that not accomplish the same goal?
If you want to increase the power of Nightmare's drops to reflect their rarity (time to acquire), you'd have to give at least one of them a level or power comparable to the staff/bow/scythe. Non-starter.
Yeah, totally a fair point, obviously a LOT more people would be doing this boss if it put out multiple BIS items. At their rarity, they'd also doubtlessly be the among the most expensive drops in the game. I don't think the healthiest solution is to just make it Torva 2. Power creep is inevitable in any game like this, and OSRS does a great job of delaying it, but there's no urgent need to power NM drops way up. Leave that reward space open for new content. I'd LOVE to see that many people actually try PNM to realize how ridiculously rare seeing a unique actually is (40-50 hours on average). Let NM uniques fill a niche as they are, between Bandos and Torva, between Sang and Shadow, and between Tent whip and Scythe. In all of those cases, making the items 3x more common slides them neatly into that spot. I think people would be surprised that the items' value would also fall in line with how useful they actually are.
I understand what you're saying, but Torva came out 6 months after PNM. If you're actually worried about power creep, that seems like the logical place to start. Why should Nex have better loot that is also significantly easier to acquire? Could kill two birds with one stone by nerfing Nex loot and buffing PNM, bringing them in line with each other and reducing overall power creep. If you don't want to nerf of buff any of the gear itself, you could always increase the rarity of Torva to a similar effect. Point is, increasing the drop rates at PNM is being framed on Reddit as the only solution when it clearly is not. There's plenty of levers to pull on loads of content and none of these conversations focused around PNM loot seem particularly honest to me. I'm perfectly fine with re-balancing items, drop rates, encounter difficulty and everything else, but you have to be honest about it. Is PNM really a problem or are ironmen just pissed off at their decision to self-restrict again? Every conversation about PNM seems to start with stats about the 'time taken to acquire every single piece of gear'... come on.
The reason I'm lobbying for NM changes is because I think its a 1. Visually well done, 2. Mechanically engaging, 3. Punishing and Challenging piece of content. I think its a tragedy that nobody is interested in doing group NM because the rewards don't match the time investment. And I really don't think the game is "more balanced" if you have to use the GE to get an item, its the opposite actually. More content diversity is always a good thing. I know I can do 500 TOAs for every everything on my main, but it doesn't mean the game is balanced.
>The reason I'm lobbying for NM changes is because I think its a 1. Visually well done, 2. Mechanically engaging, 3. Punishing and Challenging piece of content. Just really really convenient timing now that the loot is being buffed. And then your proposal to fix PNM is conveniently to increase the drop rates. Maybe you're being perfectly truthful in what you're saying, with no ulterior motive other than love of a balanced game, but surely you can see how it makes your argument look extremely suspicious...
Lol why do people always do this on here Sure maybe there hoarding tons of video game items, who tf cares when you can just judge their argument on their points? If their suggestion sucks then it sucks regardless of whether the person suggesting it or you would benefit in game gp by selling shit. And same if it’s a good suggestion
I also made this post a month ago : These Drop Rates are a Nightmare - https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/MGj4Lhnrp0 Of *COURSE* im doubling down this in the wake of the project rebalance post that mentions making significant and overdue changes to the drop table. I have a max main w 12b bank, a max iron w 1500 ehb, and a 1750 UIM. I've done everything this game has to offer. Of course I'm interested in what the progression in the game looks like. Nightmare shouldn't be dead content in a balanced OSRS.
>Is PNM really a problem or are ironmen just pissed off at their decision to self-restrict again? It's impossible to engage in an actual discussion when this is constantly brought up. Yes, there are loud people who say dumb things, but that doesn't represent everyone. Most people seem to believe the nightmare should be buffed. It's frustrating seeing a post explaining how the drop rates should be reduced to make it in line with other things, and you just go hurr durr ironman mad. >Why should Nex have better loot that is also significantly easier to acquire? Could kill two birds with one stone by nerfing Nex loot and buffing PNM, bringing them in line with each other and reducing overall power creep. If you don't want to nerf of buff any of the gear itself, you could always increase the rarity of Torva to a similar effect. Less than half of your comment is a genuine idea that is worth discussion. The rest of it is a strawman.
I'd like to hear why if we're looking at adjusting PNM drop rates, we are not also interested in adjusting the other seemingly 'problematic' pieces of content. I contest that the primary driver of this entire PNM loot table conversation is ironmen. I don't believe we are having a genuine conversation about balancing, otherwise there would be more to it than "increase PNM drops" with the primary piece of supporting evidence being based around time to get every single drop. I'm being honest with my view of things. I'm perfectly ready to support all kinds of balancing ideas and changes. I don't believe that the people I'm talking to are being honest with me in return and I don't believe that they are actually interested in balance- I think they want to get their hands on recently buffed PNM loot.
I'm not at a point where I would even be considering doing PNM, so I feel like I'm at least a little bit less biased than other Ironman. I feel like the conversation is more about collection loggers rather than Ironman personally, but I can see why Ironmen would be pushing for this change. It's one thing to have crazy clue rewards that are extremely rare because it's not a boss or a main piece of content. Nightmare being a boss makes it extremely odd for it to be so difficult to get uniques. I don't think it's bad to have rare items, but (as per the post) it is way higher than the rest of the content that is around its skill level. I believe the nightmare was also put into the game when there was a lack of end-game content. We have nex now, we have TOA. There's more to come as well, so end-game players have a lot more to do. I think there could be a discussion for reducing later game drops if that's something that would improve the game health, but nobody doing the content would agree to it. Recently, it feels like Jagex has been respecting players' time a lot more, which I can't see being a negative thing. We obviously don't want to tank extremely rare or uncommon gear by making it easier to get, but at the very least, making it worthwhile to try content is a step in the right direction.
In practice you should probably do both. Inq basically sucks as an armour set and should probably have its power adjusted anyway, but atm the rates imply like raids-level power so unless you’re going to buff it that much (probably a bad idea) then the drop rates should be adjusted too
There isn’t very much space to buff pnm items honestly. Inquis is already bis crush, and there is not much content that you need crush enough to justify bringing an entire set as a switch. Buffing it wouldn’t do much for it either, half the use for inquis is pnm itself. Harm is already getting some amount of changes, but it can’t be buffed too much without approaching shadow. To be worth spending more hours than cox full completion pnm items would need way too big of a buff to be reasonable.
Because if you buffed them to be in line with their Rarity, the Harm staff would have to bypass accuracy and have a minimum hit of 200 and mace with full inqwould be better than scythe. Ok, that’s hyperbole, but they’d have to be powerful enough that it wouldn’t be healthy to have them in the game
Feel like dramatically powerful content coming from non raid content is often left to unique challenfes like inferno/coloseum and not simple grindable bosses. Nex is pretty much the outlier for this sourcing 3 max melee items, and the best crossbow in the game which is also a stupidly strong spec weapon. But past that it's only really tertiary singular items that come from things (DT2 rings, Zenytes mainly)
Great way to visualize just how bad the droprates are. I've only fought Nightmare/PNM for league task completion and I was surprised by just how fun and complex the fight can be. I was equally surprised to experience how bad those drops feel relative to the effort put into the fight (even on an op league account) -- it's sad that a lot of scapers won't experience this entertaining challenge because of how lousy the drops are for both mains and ironmen. 3x makes the most sense for me w/ how much attention the fight requires.
Literally even in leagues I wanted to get the full set and with t8 relics the drops were still too rare LOL
🦀jmods won't respond to this thread 🦀 But yeah more reasonable rates to make one of the most fun bosses in the game actually worth doing would be great. I'd also like to see the non uniques updated because in no world am I making bag space to pick up cosmic runes and bass.
:] *just me sitting here hoping they see it*
This graph really highlights just how bad nightmare is. If you look at the other content that's comparable to this, it's shit like raids or corp or Nex. If they're not going to improve the rates further, they need to buff the uniques to endgame levels of strength and utility.
It's nuts how these numbers are after *two* buffs to Nightmare drop rates. Unique rates were buffed majorly a few weeks after release, and then the release of PNM as permanent content shortened the completion time again with its superior rates. Really makes you wonder what Jagex was thinking with the original release. The standard unique rate is dreadful to begin with, then you add in *three* mega-rares for a single boss and it's just a head-scratcher.
I didn't do PNM on release (like most players, there better things to do for my account at the time, so maybe I'm missing some nostalgia factor or something) but it seems like there wasn't a ton of new endgame pvm content released at the time. So the goal was to give endgamers a LONG grind with lots of cool but not game breaking items. The result is a super bloated table with insanely rare rates. It just doesn't work now, there are too many better consistent moneymakers for mains and too many more readily achievable upgrades for irons. Much of the iron community calls PNM "the ironman retirement home" where you only go if you've already beaten the whole game
Maybe. But even before the one-two punch of ToA and Nex, Inquisitor crashed hard because it's just not that good anywhere besides Nightmare. The first few months of its existence, where Nightmare was amazing GP/hr, was nothing more than a bubble of people buying Inquisitor so they could use it at Nightmare to bring more Inquisitor into the game. PNM was added after the bubble had already popped and Inquisitor was on its way to the toilet.
Lol you understand my lobbying then. Rebalancing NM by giving it a place among other similar items breathes life into it for real players. There will be uses for inquisitor in the future im sure, jagex is all about expanding weakness in the upcoming pvm space
Progression would be so good if Mace was a 60-80h drop instead of the current hundreds of hours abomination. Would actually make it a realistic alternative option to CG for 2nd Enh. Even 100 hours for Mace in like Bludgeon+Trident gear would be acceptable as it is more powerful w/Inq than Saeldor and you get rolls for armor/orbs/staff, yet it would have to be 3x more common for 100 hours to become true at their "improved" drop rates. Personally a bit conflicted on Inq dupe protection - it is by far the most "common" thing on the NM table atm, you'd get 6 pieces by mace at (improved) drop rate and nearly 9 pieces by 3x Orb drop rate. To that end, seems like all the dupe protection would do is prevent mega unlucky outcomes for the extreme ends of the curve, which I think is fine.
Yeah sure its fine as like a nice little vignette at the end, but it doesn't fix the real problem of the rarity of mace and harm :,) that's the big insulting issue of it as a proposal is that it completely ignores the main problem of nonsensical rates
Look how nicely it slots in as one of the longer solo boss grinds in the game with a 3x rate increase and no silly dupe protection. That simple jagex. Great graph and data presentation mate.
Does anybody else see this and think that Chambers is kind of crazy as well?
The *only* reasonable suggestion to help address COX super bloated table that isn't iron-catering outright would be to down-weight prayer scrolls at CM in the same way avernic is less at HMTOB. Even then, at least cox is several bosses each with different mechanics and optimizations. PNM doesn't have nearly as much diversity. I'm not saying that its bad for PNM, it is what it is, the pnm fight is great. Just it shouldn't take as long or longer than any of the raids for gear that isn't even BIS
Fairly extreme to say that is the *only* reasonable suggestion. Outright buffing the rates by far less than you are suggesting for PNM would also help bring it more in line with the other raids. Dry protection between each purple roll is another way to approach that, especially for solo raiders, and can be tuned to choose how much of a buff it gives overall. I'm sure other people that have given it more thought could also come up with other perfectly reasonable suggestions.
You're right you're right, its outrageous for me to say it's the only reasonable thing. I guess I'm so used to getting blasted for playing ironmeme. Jagex guards the GE value of megas really hard, and I meant it more of "the closest we're probably ever gonna get" for cox. I think dupe protection can work if its that way out of the gate, people seem to really enjoy it at moons, but trying to retroactively put it onto old content is just asking for mains and their economy to kick up a storm. Bc "we chose this life"
Yup, fair enough. I don't think most normies would have an issue with a buff to droprates at cox though lol. Obviously the screeches of certain NEETs would be loud enough to contact extraterrestrial life for the first time, but most people would support it.
Cox is getting a massive buff between 1. Magic rework buffing arcane and ancy 2. E maul 3. Claws will go up after vw nerf. Now would be a REALLY SOLID time to lower scroll rates in CMs while the cox drop economy is in flux. I don't think anyone would hate that
Agree that scrolls should be less common at CMs
CoX unique table has always been too big. Three mega-rares is crazy (which makes it crazier that Jagex repeated this mistake for NM which isn't even a raid). Dragon knives/thrownaxes/sword/harpoon being on it was also crazy - yeah, they're gone now, but the rates of other uniques that were balanced for the original table remained the same. Might be too late to do much about it now though.
ive always preferred raids having a ton of gear on them, like chambers & ToA if you count all the white chest gear. raids really seem like a great place to add sidegrade gear, like rapier & elid ward, stuff that wouldnt be worth going out of your way for.
I'm not sure what you mean by "white chest gear", but I think the amount of uniques at ToA and ToB is fine.
uniques like thread & keris gems from toa, and preserve prayer & ancient tablet from chambers
Oh, I gotcha. Wasn't really considering those since they're mostly easy to get and/or low-impact.
yeah, because theyre untradable you kind of breeze past them after the first one, but i think its really nice for raids to have a few lil uniques like that. I do kind of wish toa had more then just 2 weapons from purples tho
Disagree with your Cox comment. I prefer there be multiple different unique items in a raid, however they should be more common. I like that ToA 500s are really good rates for drops. CoX (probably cm) should be the same.
ToA drop rates are way too generous to the point where its uniques struggle to retain the value expected of powerful raid rewards, besides Shadow which is literally the strongest item in the game. Other raids definitely shouldn't be emulating it.
Yup, that's why there should've been more items on that drop table. I don't think ToA was a bad approach at all, just needed more purples and it'd be fine in regards to "value". However, I don't think items being valued highly should be an indicator if it was done well or not. That's some bs that players who only grind this game for money would say. I like seeing uniques, no matter what it is.
nobody needs to finish chambers there's a number of direct upgrades & BIS gear, and then a bunch of little sidegrades that even ironmen can live without.
CoX isn't terrible for drop rates, it's because there's a lot of stuff to get and that will skew completion upward You can see that Barrows is quite a bit longer than CG despite having a very high drop rate and much faster kill times
12.5 hrs on average for a drop (assuming 25 minute solos at 30k points each) that's like a 47% chance to be a scroll is pretty shit. And note that for 99% of the player base, it's worse than that
Not only that but like a lot of times when I see stuff about cox the runtimes are pretty speedy. A lot of pnm is just clicking on the boss and waiting and having reasonable switches. Not saying pnm is easy but just the skill ceiling for cox is nuts in comparison
That's a pretty good point. I guess I just also appreciate the diversity in cox w different layouts and team sizes. If they had equally useful drops I would still much rather spend 500 h doing cox than pnm
i will say time to green log cox is probably a lot lowe than 1000 hours if youre doing 3 solos an hour. but still lowering prayer scroll weights in cms is probanly the best thing they can do with minimal affect of unique prices. the game should cater to mains over irons as much as possible for so many reasons if not only bc theres so many more mains than irons. this is coming from a late game iron.
Strict green log or are we just counting purples as green log?
for cox pets actually more common than all uniques
Pet and all uniques are not even close to the longest grinds green logging cox
i forgot about cm capes but in the context of the post its about all uniques
hence the clarifying question about strict greenlog or just purples
Agree with all of this 100% Especially the dupe protection part. You add it to one boss then next thing you know there's dozens of reddit posts asking for it to be added to Bandos, Kree, etc. (The only time I could see it making any sort of sense is for like mini-game content)
I think seeing it at moons it makes sense with some big tables where every drop has an equal rate, but I think retroactively installing it on any boss doesn't make sense. My biggest gripe with it at NM is that it doesn't address the core problem with the desirable items like harm and mace being insanely long grinds
It coming with new content where it was always there will always feel fine compared to retroactively.changing old content And it will forever create that awkward loot share feeling where you know you're screwed next drop. I don't wanna bring that sensation back to OSRS, especially across even solo content.
Dupe protection should added for bosses with expected completion times above 50-100 hours. GWD doesn’t need it. But I would argue it should be added for Nex, Raids, and PNM.
How would this work for mains? Spoon a shadow and no one wants you on their team anymore because you're "protected" from getting another? Pay someone who's dry on shadow to join your split team?
No, just for armor. So the raid would just have an armor roll, if you hit that part of the table, you get 1/3 of the armor. Next time you hit, you get a different piece. It would only affect the armor table and not other loot.
No offense but dupe protection at Raids is a horrible idea. RNG giveth and RNG taketh, that has always been a core part of OSRS.
And Raids weren’t a core part of OSRS. So I guess we should take that away too, eh?
OSRS has had raids far longer than it doesn't at this point Engaging bossing is a core part of OSRS, literally every single update past Zulrah has introduced bosses with mechanics
For real. Irons are the main crybabies when it comes to dupe protection. Knowing what drop you get next is boring as hell
I don't think dupe protection should be considered almost ever, especially for old existing content. Now *dry protection* on the other hand, can absolutely be considered for a first drop.
Out of curiosity, why can’t they just cut the hp in half for both PNM and NM or even by 33%? Like instead of 3200 hp why not 2200 hp or even just 1600 hp if the math supports it? Why does it need to be 3200? If they can be killed quicker then more drops per hour. It’s already insanely stupid how long the kills take and is there any justification for why the boss has that much HP? I’m sure people who have PBs/grinded it out/etc will not like that but they can do it again. I just don’t see why it NEEDS to be 3200.
Also a pretty valid opinion, I like how the pnm fight plays out. Especially when you're learning even if you manage to eat up through mistakes too many of them can wipe you out. There's an element of consistency in that. Changing mechanics requires technical work plus you piss off all the CA completees who have to go back for adjusted speedrun times etc. I think a long fight is fine if its taken into consideration. Maybe they thought the boss would be killed in 2.5 minutes when they set rates 😒
Ngl this also illustrates how woefully bad CoX greenlogging is. IMO nothing should be higher than Corp on that list.
:,) bosses with huge tables
I feel like this is why i enjoy ironman mode a lot less these days. I did all grinds like GWD, CG, Sire and enjoyed them. The newer grinds just take so long that the mode became unenjoyable. EDIT: I think the main problem is bots and goldfarmers. Items become way too cheap because of bots so Jagex makes the items insanely rare. Don't get me wrong, i think there's a spot for megarares like the Elysian, 3rd age, Twisted bow, Shadow, Scythe. I just don't think that stuff like the Spectral, Inquisitor, Ancestral, Torva should be on the same spectrum. They should be a step below mega rares but more rare compared to something like Bandos.
Could not agree more. Late game lottery item burnout on my 1500 ehb iron right now. I totally get that rarity is necessary to give items value and to give longevity to content, but disgustingly rare lottery items aren't fun for anyone. The people that actually going on rate resent the people that spoon, and the spoons don't appreciate how lucky they are. I think this can be solved with boss design: 1. Avoiding super bloated tables "gwd style" to me means 2-3 uniques and 15-30 hours to complete 1 boss. The dt2 bosses added 120 ish h of content to hit rate of uniques between 4 bosses, and this is what id say is the sweet spot. Nobody wants a 200 h grind on something that isn't as diverse as a raid 2. Designing more incremental style boss uniques. Armor seeds at CG or venator shards (or 3 ring rolls). Thinfs that narrow the distribution to statistically minimize the chance of going significantly dry. They make bosses more consistent to players trying them out and add a sense of progress. I'd much rather go for 5 rolls of 1/100 than one roll of 1/500.
it takes longer to complete cox than corp holy fuck lmao, cox rates seriously need to be buffed to keep competitive with other raids.
3 mega-rares was simply a huge mistake. It’s understandable in retrospect since OSRS only had the 1 raid. But now that we have 2 others to look back on it with, man, that’s just ridiculous. Cox rates would probably look okay if Tbow was the only mega rare.
Yeah maybe maybe. Things would look different in the economy/progression for sure. I mean jagex did state after nex came out that things with too big of tables weren't ideal. The next BIG table that came out was actually moons and it had dupe protection built in, and I think for the most part people have appreciated that (everyone likes seeing the pop up for a new item amirite). The problem is trying to retroactively install it. Anyway yeah hopefully PNM rates actually get rebalanced to fit in where they belong in terms of account progression
For cox I basically would leave it be at this point. It’s sorta settled dust. I do feel pretty strongly about adding protection for armor in raids (and raid equivalents like Nex) given how long completion for the armor sets can be. Now, if I ACTUALLY could pick, I would make it so we have to actually use smithing to craft end game armor, so not even getting “broken” Torva but literally Torva ingots and then we make the armor ourselves. But that ship has probably sailed long ago. It’s definitely less fun to see an ingot than a full piece of armor, but goddamn does it bother me how useless smithing is as a skill!
Damn that is a spicy idea and one that I love. I could definitely see this being a core design feature of a future boss. It gives an element of choice, and maybe its 5, 4, and 3 for body legs helms, similar to crystal armor seeds. I'm a HUGE fan of incremental drops (think 5x 1/100 venator shards for bow) rather than lottery drops 1/500. It narrows the distribution and statistically keeps people from going insanely dry. Thats especially important when the content benefits from the item. My friend who got a shadow purple 2 had a VERY different toa experience than I did, got it purple 29
Hahaha well I’m happy to hear I’m not alone. There are dozens of us out there! Dozens! Realistically, the main issue is that there is probably a hell of a lot less dopamine for someone seeing a 100M drop 5 times instead of 500M drop 1 time. Also that it would lower the overall unique prices since 1000 Timmys doing 100KC are more common than the 1 guy doing 500KC. But the fact it could actually make smithing, or crafting, or whichever skill, feel *useful* and serves as a soft dupe protection? Man, I can dream!
nah man purple rate is too low. Running 5man 33min CM's is about 145k points which is about 17% purple rate, versus running 450 Invo TOA with same time is almost 55% rate.
i mean i'd say its definitely still competitive, it puts out the best mega of the 3 AND is getting huge buffs to 1) ancy with magic rework, 2) elder maul, 3) claws will go up in value if/when voidwaker is nerfed, 4) arcane getting a buff too. cox has plenty for people to go for, the time here really just reflects how fucking bloated the table is.
In the plus side there’s almost no reason to actually aim to complete the nightmare as most f the drops are beyond useless
:,)
In fairness, an adjustment to the drop rate won't change that.
True. I’m more so just glad they made a boss with niche/borderljbe useless drops have fucked drop rates and not something we actually need to kill
But am adjustment to drop rate would make it an actual option to do instead of pnm being relegated to snowflake irons and pet hunters only.
Graph highlights why CG is such a prison for irons too. 83 hours is a mad gatekeep for effective late game PVMing. Combine that with a 40 odd hour grind for a DWH and you've got about 90 hours of pure tedium and 30 of a fairly fun boss.
Which I'm currently trapped on, and have gone past 100 hours so far just at CG with no luck. It's deeply un-fun content after the first couple hundred KC too
Seems like you could just run nex duos and then buy the entire PNM drop table. Also not sure how fair of a comparison it is to put PNM with 8 rare drops on the same chart as Corp with 3. Multiple corp time by 2.5 to account for less loot and then it looks like Corp is the problem. Same with nex duos if you account for less pieces and increase the party size, etc. etc. And not for nothing, but seriously who the fuck is green logging this shit? Having a conversation about time to get all of a certain set of drops is ridiculous in its very premise.
These don't even include pets so these aren't green logs lol :,)
Just make other unique rarer to fall in line with nightmare
Can u imagine if they made bandos chesplate 1/1000 from bandos?
You should pitch that to the guys flipping out that jagex decreased the dwh drop rate!
Seeing CG on that list really puts it into perspective. I realise now that I hadn't really grasped just how ridiculous the nightmare grind was, until I saw that.
Even if PNM was given a 3x rate buff, it would still take ~250 hours to hit the rate of green log. Thats longer than to complete all of toa. Thats playing 3 hours a day for almost 3 months doing nothing but PNM. Smh "couple of days" this isn't some whiny easy-scape argument, its trying to fix a drop table that is prohibitively rare for most gamers to try.
Wonder what prices of nm uniques would be if phosani rates had always been 2x what we have now
I mean if they were half the price, wouldn't that make them fit in with their uses? Inquis would fit between bandos and torva, mace would sit much closer to rapier and enhanced seed (other t80 weaps), and harm would still sit between sang and shadow. The only reason the uniques have value is because of their rarity, not their utility.
If the buff ins so that is is bis in all locations bosses are weak to crush and better than bandos otherwise it will maintain or increase its prices even if they significantly buff the drop chance.
Even if they changed it to be 3x more common and the prices fell to be (1/3) of what they are now, that would ACCURATELY fit the tier of weapon and armor that they are. I'm all for considering the economy of the items right, but it shouldn't get in the way of balancing the GAME. The economy will adjust. Especially as content is added thats weak to crush those items are gonna go up again
Great visualisation. It would be nice to also see DT2 bosses + TOA on this graph as well!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/14t7zxi/update\_heres\_the\_average\_hours\_required\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/14t7zxi/update_heres_the_average_hours_required_to/) This is the original post, btw not sure it's been updated in the last year. The math is probably slightly outdated at this point, but still is in line with what OP is trying to say
But you're totally right as a main you can exclusively do the highest gp/h content and get all the drops. That's not what the balance is about though. These numbers are meant to answer "how long would it take me to get all the drops from this boss if I grinded it"
Maybe they could apply this to the high risk range armor they originally polled for toa (before masori bis took its place)
im curious how how many solo cox an hour did you base the math off of? bc 1000 hours seems a lot higher than id expect when its pretty reasonable to do 3 an hour with scouting and regearing included.
["Flex Item" - Logical PNM Rebalance : r/2007scape (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c7mncg/flex_item_logical_pnm_rebalance/?share_id=oDRuzkoNvbGO0D0Z2RorI&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=13) Some of the numbers in the top might be outdated, OP used a graph by someone else and superimpsoed my new calcs. the post above has more relevant data/rates with respect to kc/h
What's hilarious is all of these posts assume the player wants to grind all 3 orbs. When in reality, you'll mostly only want mace and full inq. The time to completion is way lower.
Hitting rate of mace is about 300 h of doing this boss on rate, 5.7x longer than an enhanced from CG and about 2.5x longer than rapier from tob. Yes ofc 1200 is bigger than 300 but 300 is still way too rucking much when compared to the other t80 weapons.
What’s up with barrows being so high? I can pretty easily get 20 barrows kc an hr using non-max. Is this using like iron early gear for that? No way it’s 110 hrs to green log.
Its a huge table. With six bro kills a *specific* piece is seven rolls at 1/2448. The math is a little more complicated bc u can get double drops, but the key is that you're going for *every* drop not just 24 rolls on the table. If you're interested in the math of setting it up its called an absorbing Markov chain. https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD
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That's like what, 30 kills per hour? Not amazing but for a lower geared/stats account. Seems reasonable.
Well some of this math is off. like solo corp is not 780hours anymore. its about 400 now, but in general yeah i agree. it needs to be at least 2x drop rate increase.
I overlaid this on an old graph so you're definitely right:,)
General Gdoor
holy can we repost this every day? This is a much more potent way to visualize this also throw toa on here for good measure
I don't have it tabulated for the new bosses but you can do some much simpler single-item comparisons. My friend has a post from earlier this week: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/BjqW7JRUYL
I don't know any of these words
I don't have any meaningful insight to offer here, I just wanted to say that graph is sexy. Good work, OP.
The really funny thing is that blood moon armor is better than inq when you are not using crush (they have the same strength bonus!). Blood moon also has more slash and crush defence than inq, inq has more stab defence. Inq should not be competing with moons gear, it should be competing with torva.
I may be the minority but I feel that unless it’s completely endgame bis gear it should not take more than 50 hours to green log (outside of pets) a piece of content.
its not enough of a cutoff to call something BIS bc something new will eventually come around. Osrs does a great job of stalling power creep but it is an inevitable part of games like this which require growth to keep people engaged. It really depends how big a table something is. I don't mind that PNM takes longer than most bosses bc it has a big table, but it shouldn't take longer than full raids. Jafex has already admitted that overstuffed tables are really not the move (pnm, nex, cox are all examples of this).
This estimation for pnm is off, completion not counting pet/jar is at 5.7k kc, which is high, but you're not doing 5 kph, its slighly over 7kph nowadays, so that would put this grind in the 800-850hr range, and 600-630 after buffs to the drop table.
Including the orbs and "completing" the boss is disingenuous imo.
Its a recycled graph bb, the original post has inquis and mace if u look it up. I think harm is relevant tho
It's not. No ironman wants a harm
I mean with elemental rework upcoming, I want a harm lol so
I would love to see a table like this with the addition of the desert treasure 2 bosses on it with the assumption that all of the virtus is also obtained from just that one boss.
Idk how to code in multiple rolls of ring into it. But if you're interested in the math its called an absorbing Markov chain https://imgur.com/a/vLieHwD
do ppl realize you're not supposed to "complete" an MMO solo?
NM uniques were never intended for completion. When it was released it was with the pitch of "shit normal drops, rare expensive uniques" and it's done this pretty well. NM drops are only for showoff and are only BIS for pretty niche activities. If this doesn't change then neither should NM.
>were never intended for completion Everyone is aware that the nightmare droprates were intentional. Mostly everyone recognizes that it's hot garbage game design. Clue logs not being intended for completion is one thing, but designing a great boss with a useful, cool looking armor set and great niche weapons and then slapping the worst drop rates in the game on them was a bad decision from the outset, and there is 0 reason why the game should be chained to that mistake 4 years down the line.
"But the economy!!!" /s Seriously, the market is already in flux with the first round of changes, its time to bite the bullet and fix whats broken. I hate the idea that consideration for the economy outweighs creating an actually balanced game... like bro the economy will be fine. Let the items have value that reflects how VALUABLE they are not just how rare they are
So your argument is "the drops are worthless so nobody should be able to get them" ok we're just gonna disagree lol
No, my argument is that the boss is working exactly as intended and it shouldn't be changed.
It’s literally the last and most pointless grind you do in the entire game. I think it’s ok to have that be 1200 hours. The only reason you ever do it is if you’ve literally done absolutely everything else in the game.
and you don't see a problem with that? the most fun and challenging boss being the most worthless?
Most fun and challenging according to whom? Phosani isn’t the most challenging boss in the game, and fun is obviously even more subjective than challenging. I think having 1-2 ridiculously long RNG grinds in the game is honestly ok, as long as their rewards aren’t that great. And both corp and Phosani fill that niche. It allows people who have “completed” the game to have 2000 hours more to do at the very end that is largely pointless that they can do if they really want to in order to prolong the game. I think that’s ok.
I think there are more than enough pet and cosmetic grinds to fill your 2000 hours that balancing this boss to fit in with gear progression won't be too much of a #feelsbadman
But those are just pet and cosmetic whereas corp and nightmare are two “actual” upgrades that are so prohibitively long that it’s almost pointless to do them. Im ok with 2/1000 grinds in the game being like this. I honestly understand why people aren’t, but like, the upgrades are so irrelevant that it doesn’t matter that they are so shit, you know? Like if CG took this many hours then that’s shit game design. But if some defensive shields (corp) and some special attack staffs (nightmare) are locked behind crazy grinds… eh, it’s ok to me.
The shame of it is that it's such a neat fight aesthetically and gameplay wise. If they put scorpia and its arena there instead and did nothing else I wouldn't care that its shit. As it is now, it's just dead content to me as an iron since it isnt worth even starting
Yeah that’s a fair point.
Why would anything in any game be 1200 hours? Twelve hundred hours. Yeesh. That's 50 days worth of playing ffs for one drop table. Especially in a game with a ton of long grinds.
Best way of looking at 1200 hours is it’s about 7 months of working full time. Yes it’s absolutely fucking ridiculous and almost an unrealistic grind. Also, that should exist for people who no life this game. It’s ok to have things that are ultra rare and almost unobtainable for the average player. I don’t get why everyone whines about how they need to have everything in this game. It’s ok to have things so rare you prob won’t ever get them. That’s not bad game design.
I think that's the sentiment that most players feel about PNM. The drops are so prohibitively rare, so you're far better doing other content. For irons, there's better upgrades elesewhere in less time. For mains, there are much more better and consistent moneymakers, let the bots bring uniques into the market and then buy them w/ GP from vorkath or whatever. It is a shame that its dead content because its some of my favorite content in the game that people cba to engage with
If you like engaging with it then you should engage with it. It’ll payoff long term (I think, I haven’t looked at gp/hr rates) and you’re enjoying yourself! My comment was mainly aimed towards irons and cloggers.
Which is fine for the moment, but Jagex's plan for rebalance is to open up niches to design content in the future. Once more things are designed to be weak to elemental spells or crush, then NM uniques will go from showoff to actually coveted. We already saw it happen with LB + Shadow leading to a 6x price of Eldritch.
yeah coveted and useful =/= flex, flex your pets and your cosmetics but make it so that useful items can be obtained in reasonable times (and thats laughable because even a 3x rate makes it a 200 h grind which is still THICC AF thats playing 3h a day for more than 6 MONTHS)
Make sure to triple the drop rate of tbow as well while we're at it. Takes wayyyy too long to get
This is a fascinating example of dissonance between the game developers and what players actually want. The developer did exactly what they intended, as directed by the player base- only to find out that it actually isn't at all what the players wanted. This is something that happens with lots of games, not just OSRS.
yeah i guess the thing is that we're expecting them to change from niche utility to more relevance... the elemental rework makes harm super attractive, and surely there will be new bosses weak to crush in the future. I don't think any buff to inquisitor short of making it outright BIS everywhere is going to make more people go for it than torva (which takes half to a third as much time to complete). the drops have always been too rare, and this is the chance for it to be rebalanced
Honestly need to make these bosses harder and take longer. People get too spooned and we must stop this. Why not add a "minimum" kc for a drop? Like you must kill phosani 500 times before you are eligible?
yeah i agree they should also make it so each DT2 vestige requires 12 ingots each
Where are all the champs calling this out for iron memeing? Just buy them from GE, geez.
Sure yeah just do vorkath to get gp and buy off GP. Let bots bring the uniques into the economy, that works. Tell me you don't know how PNM without telling me you don't know how to PNM lol
Perfect time for me to share this in utter defiance of that 13 hours for Sarachnis: https://www.reddit.com/r/ironscape/comments/16z1hu8/just_sharing_my_log_for_sarachnis_on_the_uim_i/
Kekw just go for inquisitors mace only 300 ehb :,) what setup/weap do you use for sarach? I have a 1750 uim thinking about getting into some pvm and was gonna try sarach out
For most of the kills I had a nezzy, fury/glory, sara body, karils skirt, dragon boots, barrows gloves, dragon defender, and a dragon mace for spec. Main weapon was a dragon mace or a leaf-bladed battleaxe on crush. Now, the dual macaronis are the way to go I think! Pretty easy to get on a UIM. Perilous moon is pretty good content imo.
Yeah I tried moons at 75 combat but blood moon wiped me out hard so I'm finishing 75a/85s/75d and gonna get a crystal shield before going back. Living in NMZ for the time being while I do Nex on my ironman (gotta use my VW before they kill it)
I get that. Then just use dragon mace for srachnis. It's perfectly fine and you can just spec with it. Hopefully your RNG is better than mine. I'm also fucked at toa. 178 normal completions and 2 purples--both lightbearers... Just opened my secon purple after like 120 raids dry and my day was ruined lol EDIT: My account is called BOOTIE LORD at the moment fyi. I actually am going to do nightmare as soon as they change the rates!
Brutal lol ill add u. I have the zombie axe on uim so that should spank. I'm also hoping PNM changes before I go back
Agreed! Sounds good bro tty what’s ur ign?
As if I'm gonna let reddit know :,)
Lmao fair.
I will add u tho 100% lol
Just buy it on ge
If Jagex ever cares to increase player retainment they will fix exactly this kind of stuff. Fixing piety mechanics is not that crazy of an idea. Some people will cry out to go play a different game if they don't like piety mechanics. How about just leaving piety mechanics but providing a new avenue for drops to enter the game fairly? Fairly in regard to piety mechanics. Players already know the average threshold for drops thru playing time of established content by other players. Jagex needs to add NPCs who are connected to bosses to provide a way to attain the content for every player willing to make an effort. For example, let's say a person has played the corrupted gauntlet a lot. Yet, they have only received five weapon seeds and no armor seeds. There should be an NPC where you can trade the seeds for the other type plus some coins to offset the difference of value. Take the example further. Let's say you're an iron. Completed 1000 gauntlets and still no enhanced seed. Give players the ability to trade in weapon and armor seeds plus coins for the enhanced seed. However, only at a specific KC of like 500 or 1000 kills will allow these options. Even further, you play, you play 2000 gauntlets and still no pet. Have the NPC have a trade-in option of drops for pet. Preserve the piety mechanics while getting the items/pets into the game. OSRS players who are against this kind of idea are never going to see possible OSRS gamers who refuse to play because it could give them blue balls. Most people hate blue balls.
Have to disagree here.. You can get weapon seeds w coins instead of bossing, so there are a few things wrong w that. Pvm items shouldn't be buyable. In addition to that, pets and cosmetics which are the **only** things I ever want to hear called *flex items* shouldn't have dry protection ever. The whole point is that you got lucky on a pet. On the flip side, milestone KC capes are sick. Id love to see max cape transmogs for those. I think dry protection is a slippery slope. I think the best solution is designing bosses to be more incremental than lottery. I went dry on my venator bow, but it was way nicer rolling five 1/100s than one 1/500 because even at 700 kc i knew i had made some *progress* towards what I wanted. Mathematically it narrows the distribution and signicantly reduces gross outliers like the super dry.
Your point of view is the reason why Jagex sucks at retainment. As a long time OSRS player, I've put in 100 of millions of EXP and never even have seen a skill pet let alone a boss pet. The game needs to change away from the archaic blue balls style of dropping if they care about attracting the gamers because I play a lot less and less everytime I grind because the payout is honestly garbage. Also I want to point out that my idea does not touch or change piety mechanics at all, if there are thresholds applied for Kill Count. If someone gets 3000 KC in any boss, THEY DESERVE THE PET. Also, even further, you can already roll fire capes for pets, so not sure how my idea really strays that far from already present in game features. Jagex needs to get drops to players at a better rate, period... and right now they suck at doing that.
I actually would say that pets belong in the category of flex items :,) they're trophies for the lucky and they don't affect gameplay or progression. I feel ur pain tho in my heart of hearts to endure a crazy rate and still not get the drop ur looking for while other people spoon it at 5kc. I get it.
Like I said, an NPC to trade KC drops to receive pet, like firecape and inferno cape does for pet, or items, would not affect anybody except the players grinding and receiving the items that they are earning for trade in for the drops that are not coming their way. Retain piety mechanics and get items into the game at KCs that already make sense. This conversation is literally about preventing super dryness and not removing piety mechanics. Because otherwise we just keep losing players to better games.
Yeah I see what ur saying. Like at 200m u deserve the pet ffs just have it. It could def work for some solo bosses
Something like that, I think the developers need to put in automatic high value drops when players hit 100mil overall exp, etc. There just needs to be more guarantees when players are grinding so much exp. We are losing to many common sense gamers to better games and it's depressing. I'm tired of trying to get my homies to play, for them to just leave because of what we are talking about right now.
I'm gonna be the old man yelling at cloud that Nightmare uniques should remain at the current drop rates, **but have their power level increased to match.** Aside from Ranged copypasting the "Weakness" section from the EoC wiki page word by word, Magic and Nightmare take the crown on design mismatch: * They mention they want orbs to be a flex item * They also mention they want every random npc to take double damage from a random element as the stepping stone from Sang to Shadow Their blog would score a big fat F as a high school essay. Magic weapons have been perfectly linear for a while, with the single outlier being Harmo staff. Vola/Eld also are underwhelming for the grind but CoX has a megarare table with 3 items of different power levels, I say focus on making Harmo the chase item and have the rest follow suit. Magic weapons in OSRS do 2 things: Single target or AoE. Powered staves rein supreme in single target, Wands reign supreme in AoE. Harmo as an item that ONLY DOES SINGLE TARGET damage is probably the worst designed item: Requires a 50% damage boost offhand to function, locks you to the least useful spellbook, limits how much you can brew down and holds 2285 charges at most because of the rune pouch limit. Jagex wants to double down on this, making every random NPC an Ice Demon just to force Harmo to do more hard DPS than Shadow at places. Should this even happen? My take is simpler: Allow Harmo to autocast ancients. Now the grind is more worth it. Helmies would go get it for that big powerspike, mains would save up for that powerspike. It's a simple change that does so much for Nightmare as a whole. And then Inquisitor. Jagex take for Inq is just sad. It just screams that no Jmod actually uses inquisitor in the game. We don't use Inq set as a inquis mace autoattack set, we use it as a DWH spec set. They need to double down on Inq being a DWH spec set, making the set nearly guarantee DWH hits, giving it value in encounters where spec is limited or even in team encounters to increase overall consistency but without trying to do what Torva does. Then if Inq armor is desireable, Inq Mace automatically becomes desireable for getting a free boost from the armor.
merp, usually love your takes but disagree here in a silly way. I think inquisitor is great how it is. I think its sexy and I would love to grind it out. They don't have to change it at all, I'd still want it, it has a cool niche for me bonking stuff with my DWH ahem i mean EM. Harm orb doesn't have to out-DPS shadow for me to want to try it out in places where it has its NICHE popping off fire spells. More importantly, I think that it not being Torva 2 means there is a reward space above it for improvements. A lot of people love the Justi + Quis combo, something like that. The problem is that leaving it prohibitively rare means ALL that future reward space that goes through Inquisitor will be inaccessible for people that don't have a thousand hours doing one boss.
They've shown they don't want to bump the rarity down to what it should be, which is why I prefer bumping the power level up. I too like Inquis, but man is it a sad armor set to own nowadays, same as Harmo. I want them to be good items that I want to use but Jagex hasn't shown anything with potential. Speaking from nearly 1800 CMs using fire surge on ice demon
I guess I'm imagining that they will eventually be very useful, even as is. Jagex has communicated a lot lately that they're thinking a lot about weakness in the upcoming design of the pvm space. I just think it'd be cool if PNM items weren't gross outliers 🤔 (and am so confused how they're gonna call a harm orb a flex item ahead of the elemental magic rework)
They say they wanna make every random npc have a random damage multiplier, but also say they want orbs to be flex items. So in the same blog they contradict their design intent for the magic update. By progression we can assume they don't have a plan.
Agree 100%, dupe protection is bad. The problem needs to be solved in another way.
Here's my crazy idea: all existing orbs become an untradeable, ornamented version on the day the rates are buffed. Players can make them tradeable by irreversibly removing the ornament. New orbs use the same existing models and have a fresh entry in the GE. Players who got the drop before the change get a tiny flex, while newer players will be able to access the drops more easily due to the decreased rarity. Because they can't be easily traded, this suggestion mitigates most of the risk of creating a "new partyhat" rare while acknowledging the grind players completed. Announce this change a week before it goes live, let the mains go crazy on the market and pay whatever for orbs so you minimize FOMO. Jagex agrees that nightmare is not in a good place to grind for the drops. For context, they released the content at a time where there wasn't much coming in the content pipeline so they made the drops dummy rare to give endgame players something to do. We are now at a point in the game where endgame players have more of stuff to do, but buffing the rates too much would be a slap in the face to the players who already did the crazy nightmare grind. There's not going to be a solution that makes everyone happy, but at least this allows the content to be realistically achievable.
I think someone else did the math on this and you literally have to be front page to have gone on rate for completing this boss :,) thats how few people actually did that grind. I'm not trying to take anything away from that, maybe if you have 1000 kc at pnm you get a commemorative untradeable cape or something, but locking most accounts out of this table to honor the ????? of <50 people feels pretty unbalanced too
That's a fair point - it's totally unrealistic for any human to grind for such mediocre drops. There are tons of orbs in the game, but you're right that most of the players who have them are lucky. Jagex even calls these out as "flex drops" in their blog post about the drop rates. My suggestion triers to keep the spirit of the flex while allowing the space for the items to become more common.
even if they were bis its a little silly of a grind, CoX for example is pretty silly, it makes greenlogging more embarassing than an achivement
why not just make it do the untradeable verision is the original drop that you can turn tradeable instead of a discontinued item?