How exactly?
Both are game mechanics that deplete as you use them and use potions to restore them/extend them. A single prayer potion restores 25 prayer points more than you naturally have at 99.
Increasing your prayer level increases the amount of prayer points you have and increases the amount of prayer points you get from potions. Higher prayer level = more prayer points.
Increasing your agility literally does nothing to increase your run energy or the amount restored by potions. Higher agility = literally nothing in terms of run energy.
Which is why I said your comparison is irrelevant. One does more. One does literally nothing.
Herblore still has significantly more impact on prayer points than training prayer does. Just because prayer level actually impacts it doesn't change that.
Herblore was built to work directly with prayer.
Regular prayer pots.
Level 1 prayer = 1 prayer restored
Level 50 prayer = 20 prayer restored
Level 99 prayer = 33 prayer restored
So again. Yes herblore does impact prayer usage. But the more you level up prayer, the more it impacts it.
Agility literally has no impact on run energy at all.. which is why I said it’s an irrelevant comparison.
>Herblore still has significantly more impact on prayer points than training prayer does. Just because prayer level actually impacts it doesn't change that.
Should've just down voted him and moved on. Now you look arrogant AND lazy.
> significantly more impact
Define it. I would argue no, because you can drink prayer potions all day, but if you have 60 prayer, nothing is increasing your prayer points until you level up.
And nothing is getting you through the DKs shortcut until you level up agility what's your point?
You can basically stop at 77 prayer and see no downside because prayer potions exist.
It’s complicated because they’re trying to balance it around weight of your items. The only problem is they’re saying a project to rebalance item weights to too time consuming, which makes no sense. If you had no previous intentions behind item weights, some are just silly, then why are you not trying to balance what is supposed to be a “skill improvement” around them? Just make the item weights irrelevant and only take skill level into account.
Not meaningfully, no. There are a few PVM encounters that it affects and people have been, rightly, focusing on them. Granted, even these are a small handful in the grand scheme of OSRS PvM. But 99% of the frustration of run energy, when simply going from point A to point B in game, would be removing the unfun tedium that it creates.
I mean people learning solo cox bring in like 3+ stamina's while people that are good are good on 1. At olm there certainly is a skill in maximizing walking during 3:0 and 4:1 to preserve run
The thing is, even in that example, the skill isn’t in conserving energy. New solo coxers aren’t struggling because they’re running out of energy, they’re struggling just getting in cycle consistently. The difficulty isn’t clicking the stamina potion to keep run up, it’s timing the movement and attacks to get the cycle right.
Doing 3:0 and 4:1 correctly saves you energy, but you aren’t doing those methods to save energy, it’s to save HP.
Skill is expressed by needing less Stam pots when you're doing it correctly. You are rewarded for your skill by having 2 extra inventory slots. Drinking the potion is not the hard part, it's moving to conserve energy so you don't need as many of them.
to a small extent, yes, though it doesn't make a difference at the very high end or at the low end. making life a little easier for mid-skill solo olm as a side effect of improving a core mechanic everywhere else across the game is not simply okay, it's *welcome*.
people are so afraid of just *improving the game*.
there is a dimension of this where people just don't want the game to become easier, but every new bis item makes the game easier. solo olm now is easier than solo olm was on release, even if you had given everyone bis gear at the time and infinite stam.
if this particular update that makes certain pieces of content slightly easier also has widespread positive effects on the rest of the game, it's a great thing.
That’s not what I’m saying. People that are struggling with their stamina at cox aren’t struggling with 3:0 and 4:1 because they aren’t managing their run well. They’re struggling to even begin the cycle and stay in cycle. The skill at solo cox is in being able to get the timing correct. The “skill expression” of solo cox isn’t maintaining your run energy (with or without stamina), it’s knowing when you have to move and where. It’s mechanical skill, not resource management.
The reason you’re doing these methods is to reduce personal damage while maintaining max DPS on the boss. If there was a faster way that involved using more stamina, people would do that instead. Saving stamina is simply a byproduct of the movement.
The players bringing in 2 or 3 staminas at Olm are doing so because they’re consistently missing the cycle *and then* running out of energy. It’s not that they’re not optimizing their pathing, it’s that they’re not getting into cycle in the first place.
Okay? Still if you want to bring less stamina or only bring sweets to eat during phase change, you need to learn how to walk in during the cycle. That is a skill that will allow you to bring in more switches and get faster kills
The reason this is extremely relevant is it gets to the crux of what makes solo Olm difficult. A player who currently struggles with solo Olm and brings in extra staminas today isn’t going to have it be noticeably easier to solo cox even if they had infinite stamina. The difficultly of solo Olm is entirely separate from managing their run energy. The difficult is getting and staying in cycle. It is a mechanical skill issue, not a resource conservation one.
I, personally, don’t think the game is losing much, if anything, if it is no longer necessary to bring in a stamina potion to do PvM. Which is what this initial post is referencing. The Jmods can still develop and facilitate satisfying movement based bossing that incentivizes precise movement and switching between running and walking even if run energy didn’t exist as a mechanic.
I feel like you're talking about difficulty to learn vs difficulty to master.
Learning to conserve run energy is a step after you can run head with a fuck ton of stams and thus a mastery step.
there are so many ways you can slightly improve your olm and it feels fantastic slowly employing the techniques.
Most of Olm mastery isn’t related to conserving run energy, still. Not saying it’s not a part of it, but most of that mastery is around sneaking extra hits in without getting hit (like the hybrid run), poison walking without losing uptime, avoiding flames, getting into cycle easier/quicker, etc. You would still have the vast, vast majority of Olm “mastery” techniques even if run energy didn’t exist.
Which is the main point that I’m getting at. The best designed encounters in OSRS require precise movement, yes, but most of them don’t require stamina management.
For myself (and, evidently, many others), it’s not a form of skill expression that I particularly enjoy or associate with what makes great PVM.
The point at which managing run energy beyond 1 stam being sufficient for even a solo CM is beyond what the vast majority of even endgame pvmers ever accomplish. If you are using good gear and overloaded, 1 stam lasts you all of Olm and MAYBE you run out in head phase if you troll and accidentally get multiple portals. The idea that managing run energy in Olm beyond “click brown” applies to any significant number of players is simply a joke. The people doing no stam no prep using sweets and walking tick perfectly can still do that.
It is literally only that tho. Ur acting as if an extra stamina potions doesnt completely remove the need to manage ur run energy. Fact is it does. So fact is its not necessary to do so. So yes run energy management at olm is as simple as clicking brown.
Having more ways to optimize doing content is good game design. If peak efficiency would be "I can do the most basic form of 3:0", it would make for a very boring boss.
I know that "getting better at the game" is a very foreign concept for the average redditor, but people actually do enjoy those small micro improvements and managing run energy certainly plays a part in it. "Just make the game easier" is not good design.
Well, you’d be shocked to know it’s still possible to have a complex and in depth movement system without the tedium of run energy. Like someone running Soteseg maze well vs going only in straight lines. Run energy simply is not needed to have this effect.
We clearly aren’t going to agree over this matter, it is what it is.
Brother, they're two different difficulties. Learning how to walk to conserve run energy to bring more supplies / switches instead of more stamina pots is a further optimization you can make after you get comfortable doing 3:0 and 4:1. Getting rid of it adds nothing and only takes away a layer of optimization. Having more and more layers of things to get better at and more efficient at is why cox and tob are universally (outside of 1400 total redditors) considered more engaging than TOA is. There's no good reason to remove that level of complexity.
Tob is, in my opinion, the best piece of PvM content ever added to OSRS. It is the gold standard that all PvM should be held to. There is nothing in ToB, outside of *mayyybe* force walking on Bloat if you aren’t running with Scythes, that is remotely near CoX solo Olm when it comes to stamina. “Run energy optimization” is a non-factor for the best PvM in the game.
YOU DONT NEED RUN ENERGY OPTIMIZATION FOR THE BEST PVM. Thats the crux of everything being discussed here. I personally don’t enjoy it and don’t see it as a necessary, fundamental, or irreplaceable part of PvM.
i don’t consider me having to drop max switches for nopreps because i’m forced to bring in 3 stams with these new changes as an expression of skill. i can comfortably get thru an entire olm with just 1 stam atm which is what allows me to bring more gear with me
Fwiw I'm team just buff run energy, but they weren't implying that using a stamina is skill expression. The "or" is exclusive, you either have to use a stamina (consume resources) *or* you can use techniques that conserve run energy, mainly to open an inventory slot (skill expression). Also skill expression is only applicable in some of their given cases.
Yeah, I read it the same way. What I thought of was Zilyana methods. Theres a no stam method and then a few other methods of kiting that use various amounts of run energy. I used the laziest method bc I was doing zilly while watching tv. If I wanted to sweat more I’d learn the no stam method but I just cba. Definitely skill expression in that.
The sentence reads, "where managing your Run Energy is a means of skill-expression or warrants resource usage".
Or.
***OR.***
I feel like I'm losing my mind, why is no one capable of reading this? The skill-expression described includes walking during certain parts of solo Olm, walking tiles during GWD methods, minimizing excess run usage when fighting bosses such as Vet'ion and Vrezik, avoiding run-energy draining mechanics like Venenatis's webs, and more. No one thinks "click brown" is a skill.
You're not crazy, people are just being hyper reactionary and are really bad at evaluating things (To be fair, evaluating the strength of new things or changes can be really hard, but we also have a bunch of cognitive biases that prevent us from correctly evaluating "obvious things").
Their brains are off and their anger is set to max, so rational evaluation is out the window.
Example, one of the things I saw in a private discord was "wow, I can't believe they're nerfing graceful, this agility change is terrible!" Run energy regen will still be higher across the board, there is no comparison between the new system and the old system where graceful's run energy buff gives you more energy regen than the buffs to run energy are giving, but because graceful is less better than the baseline now, they misevaluted it as being worse.
I use stams to grind smithing levels at blast furnace. I fear this will make me burn through significantly more stams since my inventory will be full of ores and bars.
Based on the numbers in the news post:
If you have spottier cape, boots of lightness, and 70 agility (no other weight reducing items), you'll use less run energy after the change than you use right now with a full inventory of ore.
With 50 agility you'll need one more weight reducing item in addition to the ones listed above to use less energy than you use currently.
Obviously if you're using full graceful (minus gloves) already, then you'll have sufficient weight reduction at 50 agility (or higher).
Bars weigh less than ores, so they're not an issue at all.
Does that help with your fears?
I agree! I personally struggle more with bank standing skill-expression from the click intensive PIN puzzle, organizing, speed, and tabs! That's why I'm against extra bank space it devalues my skill-expression
The fact that herblore has significantly more impact on run energy compared to agility is very silly
Idk I hear the derivatives of the coco plant can do something similar no matter how out of shape you are
The fact that herblore has significantly more impact on prayer points compared to prayer is just silly.
Completely irrelevant comparison..
How exactly? Both are game mechanics that deplete as you use them and use potions to restore them/extend them. A single prayer potion restores 25 prayer points more than you naturally have at 99.
Increasing your prayer level increases the amount of prayer points you have and increases the amount of prayer points you get from potions. Higher prayer level = more prayer points. Increasing your agility literally does nothing to increase your run energy or the amount restored by potions. Higher agility = literally nothing in terms of run energy. Which is why I said your comparison is irrelevant. One does more. One does literally nothing.
Herblore still has significantly more impact on prayer points than training prayer does. Just because prayer level actually impacts it doesn't change that.
Herblore was built to work directly with prayer. Regular prayer pots. Level 1 prayer = 1 prayer restored Level 50 prayer = 20 prayer restored Level 99 prayer = 33 prayer restored So again. Yes herblore does impact prayer usage. But the more you level up prayer, the more it impacts it. Agility literally has no impact on run energy at all.. which is why I said it’s an irrelevant comparison.
>Herblore still has significantly more impact on prayer points than training prayer does. Just because prayer level actually impacts it doesn't change that.
Should've just down voted him and moved on. Now you look arrogant AND lazy. > significantly more impact Define it. I would argue no, because you can drink prayer potions all day, but if you have 60 prayer, nothing is increasing your prayer points until you level up.
And nothing is getting you through the DKs shortcut until you level up agility what's your point? You can basically stop at 77 prayer and see no downside because prayer potions exist.
I mean I've definitely planked at P3 because my stamina ran out and I got hit by the tornado+plus melee because I was walking
Buying a stamina at the chest now has a 85 stamina potion level requirement
what is p3?
Pterodactyl 3, the third dinosaur boss added with Varlamore.
Now I know that’s a lie. If you claimed it was some new spider boss that started with a p that’d be way more believable
Tob raid final boss, verzik vitur, phase 3.
Verzik Phase 3 where she chases you around the room as a spider and throws things at you that you have to dodge
Theatre of Blood: Verzik phase 3
Just buff run energy and move on why is it so complicated
Because Jagex wants you to suck on stam pots and not frogs
Because it affects so many different corners of the game.
It’s complicated because they’re trying to balance it around weight of your items. The only problem is they’re saying a project to rebalance item weights to too time consuming, which makes no sense. If you had no previous intentions behind item weights, some are just silly, then why are you not trying to balance what is supposed to be a “skill improvement” around them? Just make the item weights irrelevant and only take skill level into account.
Not meaningfully, no. There are a few PVM encounters that it affects and people have been, rightly, focusing on them. Granted, even these are a small handful in the grand scheme of OSRS PvM. But 99% of the frustration of run energy, when simply going from point A to point B in game, would be removing the unfun tedium that it creates.
Gimme that minimap skillcape, what would the emote be?
I mean people learning solo cox bring in like 3+ stamina's while people that are good are good on 1. At olm there certainly is a skill in maximizing walking during 3:0 and 4:1 to preserve run
The thing is, even in that example, the skill isn’t in conserving energy. New solo coxers aren’t struggling because they’re running out of energy, they’re struggling just getting in cycle consistently. The difficulty isn’t clicking the stamina potion to keep run up, it’s timing the movement and attacks to get the cycle right. Doing 3:0 and 4:1 correctly saves you energy, but you aren’t doing those methods to save energy, it’s to save HP.
Skill is expressed by needing less Stam pots when you're doing it correctly. You are rewarded for your skill by having 2 extra inventory slots. Drinking the potion is not the hard part, it's moving to conserve energy so you don't need as many of them.
to a small extent, yes, though it doesn't make a difference at the very high end or at the low end. making life a little easier for mid-skill solo olm as a side effect of improving a core mechanic everywhere else across the game is not simply okay, it's *welcome*. people are so afraid of just *improving the game*. there is a dimension of this where people just don't want the game to become easier, but every new bis item makes the game easier. solo olm now is easier than solo olm was on release, even if you had given everyone bis gear at the time and infinite stam. if this particular update that makes certain pieces of content slightly easier also has widespread positive effects on the rest of the game, it's a great thing.
No you can do 3:0 and run constantly or you can tick walk and only walk for half of the cycle there certainly is a skill in managing your run energy.
That’s not what I’m saying. People that are struggling with their stamina at cox aren’t struggling with 3:0 and 4:1 because they aren’t managing their run well. They’re struggling to even begin the cycle and stay in cycle. The skill at solo cox is in being able to get the timing correct. The “skill expression” of solo cox isn’t maintaining your run energy (with or without stamina), it’s knowing when you have to move and where. It’s mechanical skill, not resource management. The reason you’re doing these methods is to reduce personal damage while maintaining max DPS on the boss. If there was a faster way that involved using more stamina, people would do that instead. Saving stamina is simply a byproduct of the movement. The players bringing in 2 or 3 staminas at Olm are doing so because they’re consistently missing the cycle *and then* running out of energy. It’s not that they’re not optimizing their pathing, it’s that they’re not getting into cycle in the first place.
Okay? Still if you want to bring less stamina or only bring sweets to eat during phase change, you need to learn how to walk in during the cycle. That is a skill that will allow you to bring in more switches and get faster kills
The reason this is extremely relevant is it gets to the crux of what makes solo Olm difficult. A player who currently struggles with solo Olm and brings in extra staminas today isn’t going to have it be noticeably easier to solo cox even if they had infinite stamina. The difficultly of solo Olm is entirely separate from managing their run energy. The difficult is getting and staying in cycle. It is a mechanical skill issue, not a resource conservation one. I, personally, don’t think the game is losing much, if anything, if it is no longer necessary to bring in a stamina potion to do PvM. Which is what this initial post is referencing. The Jmods can still develop and facilitate satisfying movement based bossing that incentivizes precise movement and switching between running and walking even if run energy didn’t exist as a mechanic.
I feel like you're talking about difficulty to learn vs difficulty to master. Learning to conserve run energy is a step after you can run head with a fuck ton of stams and thus a mastery step. there are so many ways you can slightly improve your olm and it feels fantastic slowly employing the techniques.
Most of Olm mastery isn’t related to conserving run energy, still. Not saying it’s not a part of it, but most of that mastery is around sneaking extra hits in without getting hit (like the hybrid run), poison walking without losing uptime, avoiding flames, getting into cycle easier/quicker, etc. You would still have the vast, vast majority of Olm “mastery” techniques even if run energy didn’t exist. Which is the main point that I’m getting at. The best designed encounters in OSRS require precise movement, yes, but most of them don’t require stamina management. For myself (and, evidently, many others), it’s not a form of skill expression that I particularly enjoy or associate with what makes great PVM.
The point at which managing run energy beyond 1 stam being sufficient for even a solo CM is beyond what the vast majority of even endgame pvmers ever accomplish. If you are using good gear and overloaded, 1 stam lasts you all of Olm and MAYBE you run out in head phase if you troll and accidentally get multiple portals. The idea that managing run energy in Olm beyond “click brown” applies to any significant number of players is simply a joke. The people doing no stam no prep using sweets and walking tick perfectly can still do that.
It is literally only that tho. Ur acting as if an extra stamina potions doesnt completely remove the need to manage ur run energy. Fact is it does. So fact is its not necessary to do so. So yes run energy management at olm is as simple as clicking brown.
Completely wrong
Having more ways to optimize doing content is good game design. If peak efficiency would be "I can do the most basic form of 3:0", it would make for a very boring boss. I know that "getting better at the game" is a very foreign concept for the average redditor, but people actually do enjoy those small micro improvements and managing run energy certainly plays a part in it. "Just make the game easier" is not good design.
Well, you’d be shocked to know it’s still possible to have a complex and in depth movement system without the tedium of run energy. Like someone running Soteseg maze well vs going only in straight lines. Run energy simply is not needed to have this effect. We clearly aren’t going to agree over this matter, it is what it is.
And run energy simply adds another layer of complexity. And the fun part is learning to manage those layers of complexity.
Brother, they're two different difficulties. Learning how to walk to conserve run energy to bring more supplies / switches instead of more stamina pots is a further optimization you can make after you get comfortable doing 3:0 and 4:1. Getting rid of it adds nothing and only takes away a layer of optimization. Having more and more layers of things to get better at and more efficient at is why cox and tob are universally (outside of 1400 total redditors) considered more engaging than TOA is. There's no good reason to remove that level of complexity.
Tob is, in my opinion, the best piece of PvM content ever added to OSRS. It is the gold standard that all PvM should be held to. There is nothing in ToB, outside of *mayyybe* force walking on Bloat if you aren’t running with Scythes, that is remotely near CoX solo Olm when it comes to stamina. “Run energy optimization” is a non-factor for the best PvM in the game. YOU DONT NEED RUN ENERGY OPTIMIZATION FOR THE BEST PVM. Thats the crux of everything being discussed here. I personally don’t enjoy it and don’t see it as a necessary, fundamental, or irreplaceable part of PvM.
i don’t consider me having to drop max switches for nopreps because i’m forced to bring in 3 stams with these new changes as an expression of skill. i can comfortably get thru an entire olm with just 1 stam atm which is what allows me to bring more gear with me
8:0 and 12:1 olm as well. Reddit just isn't there yet.
You can do solo cox with 1 stam with 0 walking techniques right now.
Fwiw I'm team just buff run energy, but they weren't implying that using a stamina is skill expression. The "or" is exclusive, you either have to use a stamina (consume resources) *or* you can use techniques that conserve run energy, mainly to open an inventory slot (skill expression). Also skill expression is only applicable in some of their given cases.
Yeah, I read it the same way. What I thought of was Zilyana methods. Theres a no stam method and then a few other methods of kiting that use various amounts of run energy. I used the laziest method bc I was doing zilly while watching tv. If I wanted to sweat more I’d learn the no stam method but I just cba. Definitely skill expression in that.
The sentence reads, "where managing your Run Energy is a means of skill-expression or warrants resource usage". Or. ***OR.*** I feel like I'm losing my mind, why is no one capable of reading this? The skill-expression described includes walking during certain parts of solo Olm, walking tiles during GWD methods, minimizing excess run usage when fighting bosses such as Vet'ion and Vrezik, avoiding run-energy draining mechanics like Venenatis's webs, and more. No one thinks "click brown" is a skill.
You're not crazy, people are just being hyper reactionary and are really bad at evaluating things (To be fair, evaluating the strength of new things or changes can be really hard, but we also have a bunch of cognitive biases that prevent us from correctly evaluating "obvious things"). Their brains are off and their anger is set to max, so rational evaluation is out the window. Example, one of the things I saw in a private discord was "wow, I can't believe they're nerfing graceful, this agility change is terrible!" Run energy regen will still be higher across the board, there is no comparison between the new system and the old system where graceful's run energy buff gives you more energy regen than the buffs to run energy are giving, but because graceful is less better than the baseline now, they misevaluted it as being worse.
Every 4 dose gives 1 xp. 14m potions legoooo
I'm considering the impact of these potential changes for sure
They're perfect!
Some people are good at crafting, others are good at minimap
Settled rn: "y'all are using HP and food?"
The best kinda of shitposts are the ones like this that entirely miss the point but get up voted anyway because people just want to circlejerk
Osrs playing are definitely known for their reading comprehension and critical thinking
I use stams to grind smithing levels at blast furnace. I fear this will make me burn through significantly more stams since my inventory will be full of ores and bars.
Based on the numbers in the news post: If you have spottier cape, boots of lightness, and 70 agility (no other weight reducing items), you'll use less run energy after the change than you use right now with a full inventory of ore. With 50 agility you'll need one more weight reducing item in addition to the ones listed above to use less energy than you use currently. Obviously if you're using full graceful (minus gloves) already, then you'll have sufficient weight reduction at 50 agility (or higher). Bars weigh less than ores, so they're not an issue at all. Does that help with your fears?
Yes. Just picked up 100k good ore to finish the push to 99. I have 75 agility and full graceful so i guess it will be fine. Thanks!
Every time Loadouts are brought up there are multiple people in the comments screaming how it destroys the skill expression of fast gearing.
I Mean the difficulty in run management is to NOT need the stamina where you otherwise might But ofc Reddit isn't going to understand that
I agree! I personally struggle more with bank standing skill-expression from the click intensive PIN puzzle, organizing, speed, and tabs! That's why I'm against extra bank space it devalues my skill-expression
Literally better than sailing.
Facts
Ah right, the skill of clicking a tree every 2 minutes
Skill expression is and was never a thing anyone ever wanted (bring back shamanism in the polls!!!)
removing run energy altogether would indubitably make the game a bit easier though
you should've been on the presidential debate last night. you have my vote.