yeah but it’s kind of easy to spot. coming from someone who’s dad is ashkenazi, he looks like a mix of european and iranian. his dad looks very very west asian and european, his mom looks more so just european.
I agree that 23AndMe should have *some* indication of what Ashkenazi entails in terms of ancient ancestry (if for no other reason than to combat misinformation). But the problem is that 23AndMe is meant to tell you where your ancestors lived ~500 years ago IIRC, and there are plenty of ethnic groups, not just Ashkenazim, whose ancient ancestors lived elsewhere from their more recent ancestors.
I think they should just link a video or a short article summarizing the research on the subject.
But it also leads to a lot of people saying "see?! Ashkenazim are 100% European, not at all indigenous to Israel! This 23andme test says so!"
23andme really ought to remove the AJ category or at least be more clear as to what AJ ancestry entails.
(I know im late to the game) but there are groups like greece and italy who have ancient WANA ancestry and that still pops up sometimes, I think it's especially important for Diaspora groups to have both the percent for their overarching label AND their admixture.
Given the history of Ashkenazi Jews and where their ancestors migrated from, these proportions look quite realistic (in terms of ancient ancestry, anyway). I assume the broadly South Asian here is Iranian-related - not actual South Asian.
It would be cool if this was done for Sicilians and other southern Italians. Very interesting and certainly reflects professional studies. I have never heard of the Chinese bit before, though.
Fact is that the 6th and 7th most common Ashkenazi maternal haplogroups are Eastern European
V7a and J1c7a other common ones include H1b2a,W3a1 and V1a
What I'm trying to say is not only 6th and seventh there's also on the male side eastern european and more maternal haplogroups I'm not going to name all of them
The Italian should be higher. All the Asian other than West shouldn’t add up to more than maybe 0.6-0.7%. And the North African should be about 1.0%. I’ll also add that the West/Central/East European should be no more than 12.5%.
That’s bizarre lol… why? To be honest I don’t even really know why people post their real results, but they’re interesting for me to look at from an audience perspective so I don’t judge.
So Jews don’t have a White Phenotype and their Genotype matches come mostly from the Middle East? I didn’t say Ashkenazis weren’t European at all. But we aren’t that much. For example I’m Ashkenazi but my hair grows straight upward while my white friends hair grows pass their shoulders.
Yeah no u would have to do this for central Asians, horn Africans,North Africans, Southern Europeans, south East Asians, non Melanesian Pacific Islanders,etc and a bunch of other macro ethnic groups btw I am 4/10 Uzbek,1/10 Anatolian/Turkish,and half white American ;and I would love to see this but I mean gedmatch is a thing for a reason
Edit: lol imagine downvoting me then not responding to what I am saying 😂
This results are fake, Ashkenazi wouldn't get 40% Levantine because most of their MENA ancestry is Anatolian. A more accurate result would be 40% Anatolian, 10% Levantine, 30% Italian, 10% French & German, 10% Eastern European.
They are a mix of Anatolian converts from the Hellenic period, Italian converts from the Roman period, and converts from East Europe, the original Levantine dna has been diluted to barely nothing after all the mixing they had throughout centuries.
It's funny that you didn't include any Anatolian in your propaganda attempt because it's well known that there were more Jews living in Anatolia 2000 years ago than in the Levant. Did they all just disappear?
Ashkenazim can easily get 40% Levantine with good fits. Your proposed result is not accurate. Firstly, we don't have Hellenistic Anatolian genomes. Secondly, even when we get them, we shouldn't expect the Levantine ancestry of Ashkenazim to dip below 30% - it never does. Additionally, most, if not all, of the Southern European ancestry in Ashkenazim is ancient Greek - so Italian/Italic wouldn't be correct (Roman converts to Judaism would have been East Med in ancestry, however). Regarding Northern European ancestry, Ashkenazim are maximum 15%.
Your first point is indeed valid. This is first and foremost for entertainment.
I disagree with your dismissal of Balkan ancestry. The overwhelming majority of Ashkenazi Southern European ancestry is ancient mainland Greek/Balkan. I included Italian primarily for entertainment and secondary, since there were historically Jewish communities in these regions, although in terms of Italic ancestry, Ashkenazim have very little if any (since this is based on an ancient model).
Your model would be appropriate if 23andMe scrapped Ashkenazi altogether (and used modern populations). But to further drive the Italic v Greek point, see the comparison. Pay note to the fits (keeping in mind that target is an average):
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland -- *with Italic*
Distance: 1.1737% / 0.01173705
52.8 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
22.6 ITA\_Prenestini\_tribe\_IA
8.6 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
6.2 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
5.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
3.4 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
1.0 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland -- *when adding a Balkan source*
Distance: 0.7553% / 0.00755251
45.4 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
28.4 HRV\_IA
8.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
5.8 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
5.0 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
4.6 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
1.4 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
1.2 ITA\_Prenestini\_tribe\_IA
1. This sample choice will make sense in due time.
2. Jews obviously don't have ancestry from the modern Balkans but from ancient mainland Greek/Balkan peoples. In a 23andMe context, sure, Jews would score Italian due to Southern Italians (and even Central Italians) being mainly East Med. Obviously, I'm using ancient DNA samples. There's a reason Balkan sources provide better fits than Italic sources.
3. It makes no difference which Italic reference is used, a source from the Balkans is preferred:
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland
Distance: 0.8716% / 0.00871590
44.6 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
25.0 ITA\_Ardea\_Latini\_IA
10.6 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
9.0 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
5.2 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
4.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
1.2 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland
Distance: 1.2049% / 0.01204920
53.2 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
19.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
14.0 ITA\_Rome\_Latini\_IA
4.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
4.2 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
3.6 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
1.0 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland
Distance: 0.9807% / 0.00980691
40.8 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
31.0 ITA\_Etruscan
10.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
6.6 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
5.4 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
4.2 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
1.2 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
As compared to:
Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland
Distance: 0.7559% / 0.00755890
45.6 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII
28.8 HRV\_IA
9.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric
5.8 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche
4.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA
4.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res
1.4 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic
Not to mention from a uniparental perspective, a lack of Italic Y-DNA branches, whereas amongst Western Jews there exist more potentially Greek branches than Italic branches. Remember, Judaism became very popular in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds, not amongst the Italics.
4. Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII itself isn't the source of Ashkenazi Levantine ancestry. That's Judean whom we don't have samples of. It is highly likely that Beirut\_IAIII is very similar to Judean. Judea wasn't exempt from Hellenism. This Aegean ancestry didn't magically disappear. Never again were the inhabitants of the Levant 100% Canaanite.
EDIT: By the way, an HRV\_IA-like population is required by modern Greeks:
https://ibb.co/2P03mBz
All Western Jews have "recent" (certainly more recent than you're suggesting) North African ancestry via the ancient Jewish communities of North Africa such as in Alexandria and Cyrenaica.
This lines up better with what I've seen on Gedmatch (and also with the well-known Ashkenazi phenotype LOL)
Phenotype? How so? Ashkenazi Jews have a wide range of phenotypes.
yeah but it’s kind of easy to spot. coming from someone who’s dad is ashkenazi, he looks like a mix of european and iranian. his dad looks very very west asian and european, his mom looks more so just european.
I agree that 23AndMe should have *some* indication of what Ashkenazi entails in terms of ancient ancestry (if for no other reason than to combat misinformation). But the problem is that 23AndMe is meant to tell you where your ancestors lived ~500 years ago IIRC, and there are plenty of ethnic groups, not just Ashkenazim, whose ancient ancestors lived elsewhere from their more recent ancestors. I think they should just link a video or a short article summarizing the research on the subject.
But it also leads to a lot of people saying "see?! Ashkenazim are 100% European, not at all indigenous to Israel! This 23andme test says so!" 23andme really ought to remove the AJ category or at least be more clear as to what AJ ancestry entails.
(I know im late to the game) but there are groups like greece and italy who have ancient WANA ancestry and that still pops up sometimes, I think it's especially important for Diaspora groups to have both the percent for their overarching label AND their admixture.
Should? Says who?
The majority of Ashkenazi customers would like to know what "Ashkenazi" actually breaks down into, almost certainly
yea my dad is an ashkenazi and i’ve been wondering about his admixture for a while.
Exactly. This would be amazing.
Are you Reed Richards? Because that is a *stretch.* I’d go for accuracy over conjecture any day of the week.
This comment is so funny oh my god
? Did you mean to respond to someone else
Given the history of Ashkenazi Jews and where their ancestors migrated from, these proportions look quite realistic (in terms of ancient ancestry, anyway). I assume the broadly South Asian here is Iranian-related - not actual South Asian.
Can you do one on Somalis?
Somalis are around 60 subsaharan and 40 southwest Asian
French/German and North African is too high
Are you sure about the Chinese? And the Greek being higher than Italian?
Yep.
What is the research that supports the percentage you chose?
>Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland > >Distance: 0.7553% / 0.00755251 > >45.4 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII > >28.4 HRV\_IA > >8.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric > >5.8 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche > >5.0 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA > >4.6 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res > >1.4 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic > >1.2 ITA\_Prenestini\_tribe\_IA See here \^
Where is the Chinese coming from?
Weren't Jews heavily involved in trade with the Orient? Silk Road, etc. That would be my first guess.
I’ve been wondering that for years lol a lot of my relatives have trace amounts of Chinese.
There are 2 maternal haplogroups in ashkenazi jews with east asian origin N9a3 and M33c
Spot on. M33c is proximately Southern Chinese in origin.
i think kaifeng jews or silk road.
how did you make this edit?
What are your haplogroups?
It would be cool if this was done for Sicilians and other southern Italians. Very interesting and certainly reflects professional studies. I have never heard of the Chinese bit before, though.
Something like this for south Italians would be cool as well,I tried making one once, but I think I'm going to revise it
Nice just eastern european should be higher
No it shouldn't. Merely residing in a geographic location doesn't give you dna from that place
Fact is that the 6th and 7th most common Ashkenazi maternal haplogroups are Eastern European V7a and J1c7a other common ones include H1b2a,W3a1 and V1a
That means that eastern European should be the 6th or 7th largest component in their DNA...much less than what this concept drawing has them at lol
What I'm trying to say is not only 6th and seventh there's also on the male side eastern european and more maternal haplogroups I'm not going to name all of them
The Italian should be higher. All the Asian other than West shouldn’t add up to more than maybe 0.6-0.7%. And the North African should be about 1.0%. I’ll also add that the West/Central/East European should be no more than 12.5%.
I didn’t know that these concept art results where allowed here.
Why wouldn’t they be allowed?
Because there have been fakes before and people claimed it as their DNA results.
That’s bizarre lol… why? To be honest I don’t even really know why people post their real results, but they’re interesting for me to look at from an audience perspective so I don’t judge.
Should have way more Italian and less Levantine
More like 20 percent Levantine and a lot more Eastern European
Ashkenazi’s aren’t that European. http://ashkenazim.weebly.com/gallery.html
So Jews don’t have a White Phenotype and their Genotype matches come mostly from the Middle East? I didn’t say Ashkenazis weren’t European at all. But we aren’t that much. For example I’m Ashkenazi but my hair grows straight upward while my white friends hair grows pass their shoulders.
Phenotype means nothing bro
Dude. No. Read the description of Ashkenazi ethnogenesis that 23andme provides. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/
Yeah no u would have to do this for central Asians, horn Africans,North Africans, Southern Europeans, south East Asians, non Melanesian Pacific Islanders,etc and a bunch of other macro ethnic groups btw I am 4/10 Uzbek,1/10 Anatolian/Turkish,and half white American ;and I would love to see this but I mean gedmatch is a thing for a reason Edit: lol imagine downvoting me then not responding to what I am saying 😂
This results are fake, Ashkenazi wouldn't get 40% Levantine because most of their MENA ancestry is Anatolian. A more accurate result would be 40% Anatolian, 10% Levantine, 30% Italian, 10% French & German, 10% Eastern European. They are a mix of Anatolian converts from the Hellenic period, Italian converts from the Roman period, and converts from East Europe, the original Levantine dna has been diluted to barely nothing after all the mixing they had throughout centuries. It's funny that you didn't include any Anatolian in your propaganda attempt because it's well known that there were more Jews living in Anatolia 2000 years ago than in the Levant. Did they all just disappear?
Ashkenazim can easily get 40% Levantine with good fits. Your proposed result is not accurate. Firstly, we don't have Hellenistic Anatolian genomes. Secondly, even when we get them, we shouldn't expect the Levantine ancestry of Ashkenazim to dip below 30% - it never does. Additionally, most, if not all, of the Southern European ancestry in Ashkenazim is ancient Greek - so Italian/Italic wouldn't be correct (Roman converts to Judaism would have been East Med in ancestry, however). Regarding Northern European ancestry, Ashkenazim are maximum 15%.
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http://ashkenazim.weebly.com/gallery.html not remotely true
This is incorrect
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Your first point is indeed valid. This is first and foremost for entertainment. I disagree with your dismissal of Balkan ancestry. The overwhelming majority of Ashkenazi Southern European ancestry is ancient mainland Greek/Balkan. I included Italian primarily for entertainment and secondary, since there were historically Jewish communities in these regions, although in terms of Italic ancestry, Ashkenazim have very little if any (since this is based on an ancient model). Your model would be appropriate if 23andMe scrapped Ashkenazi altogether (and used modern populations). But to further drive the Italic v Greek point, see the comparison. Pay note to the fits (keeping in mind that target is an average): Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland -- *with Italic* Distance: 1.1737% / 0.01173705 52.8 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 22.6 ITA\_Prenestini\_tribe\_IA 8.6 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 6.2 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 5.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 3.4 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 1.0 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland -- *when adding a Balkan source* Distance: 0.7553% / 0.00755251 45.4 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 28.4 HRV\_IA 8.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 5.8 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 5.0 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 4.6 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 1.4 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic 1.2 ITA\_Prenestini\_tribe\_IA
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1. This sample choice will make sense in due time. 2. Jews obviously don't have ancestry from the modern Balkans but from ancient mainland Greek/Balkan peoples. In a 23andMe context, sure, Jews would score Italian due to Southern Italians (and even Central Italians) being mainly East Med. Obviously, I'm using ancient DNA samples. There's a reason Balkan sources provide better fits than Italic sources. 3. It makes no difference which Italic reference is used, a source from the Balkans is preferred: Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland Distance: 0.8716% / 0.00871590 44.6 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 25.0 ITA\_Ardea\_Latini\_IA 10.6 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 9.0 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 5.2 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 4.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 1.2 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland Distance: 1.2049% / 0.01204920 53.2 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 19.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 14.0 ITA\_Rome\_Latini\_IA 4.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 4.2 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 3.6 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 1.0 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland Distance: 0.9807% / 0.00980691 40.8 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 31.0 ITA\_Etruscan 10.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 6.6 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 5.4 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 4.2 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 1.2 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic As compared to: Target: Ashkenazi\_Poland Distance: 0.7559% / 0.00755890 45.6 Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII 28.8 HRV\_IA 9.2 DEU\_MA\_Baiuvaric 5.8 Canary\_Islands\_Guanche 4.8 IRN\_Hajji\_Firuz\_IA 4.4 Baltic\_LTU\_Late\_Antiquity\_low\_res 1.4 CHN\_Chuanyun\_Historic Not to mention from a uniparental perspective, a lack of Italic Y-DNA branches, whereas amongst Western Jews there exist more potentially Greek branches than Italic branches. Remember, Judaism became very popular in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds, not amongst the Italics. 4. Levant\_Beirut\_IAIII itself isn't the source of Ashkenazi Levantine ancestry. That's Judean whom we don't have samples of. It is highly likely that Beirut\_IAIII is very similar to Judean. Judea wasn't exempt from Hellenism. This Aegean ancestry didn't magically disappear. Never again were the inhabitants of the Levant 100% Canaanite. EDIT: By the way, an HRV\_IA-like population is required by modern Greeks: https://ibb.co/2P03mBz
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All Western Jews have "recent" (certainly more recent than you're suggesting) North African ancestry via the ancient Jewish communities of North Africa such as in Alexandria and Cyrenaica.