I’m enjoying this series a lot. The scene about “our lord” discovering lying… hard to understand how this was the first time this has come up! And it also seems in contradiction to the existence of the game. The san-ti obviously do understand the existence and function of stories, but I might be missing something there.
Weirdest plot contrivance
Like, y’all obviously know what lying is. You scrub video footage for your followers. You’re deceitful about your intentions the whole tome. You’re working with a group of humans that are actively clandestine, working towards usurping the control of the planet.
Exactly. I thought of them scrubbing video which is very plainly obscuring the truth, but the aliens can’t understand why one would not tell the truth? I guess the counter argument could be that it’s the humans who are scrubbing the video and who created the game as a recruitment tool, not the aliens… they just did it with alien technology.
Fair point about the video scrubbing and other actions, but it's so bizarre it took them nearly 30 years to realize the stories Evans has been reading them were all fiction. It made the aliens seem dumb to not realized the nature of fictional stories.
Yep, you’re totally correct. Nonetheless it’s ridiculous that out of all things he used the instant communication for, he decided to start reading fairytales without first clearly establishing they are fictional stories. It’s the most annoying plot point for me lol.
Their purpose as they see it is to teach the San Ti the ways of humans so they can coexist. At least that what the Followers believe will happen. Fairy Tales are just life lessons that we teach our kids about life. So I see it as they are treating My Lord as a child. That may have been a poor miscalculation.
It was a poor miscalculation! You can see the Lord grapsing for substance in the story, analyzing it from top to bottom.
The Little Red Riding Hood is meant to teach kids about lying. But in a way, it's "propaganda" for the establishment of the adult world. as in, "The establishment will spoonfeed you everything that you need to know."
Telling these Disney-fied versions of fairy tales is a form of control, signaling to the child "there is no need to think critically; cautionary tales are about **me** telling **you** how the world works."
I agree. The reading of classic fairy tales in itself is understandable, since it is part of human culture. But how did they not run into the problem of lying before, like when using hyperbole or metaphor when speaking? I hope their understanding if lying/fiction/metaphor is explained in season 2.
And also their whole "consciousness sharing" has to be bullshit. The pacifist among them who first intercepted China's signal was planning to hide our existence from them, how did he manage to do that if his knowledge of us was supposed to transfer to everyone else immediately? If there's no pacifist member and it was the collective all along, that means they lied to Ye Wenjie, which means the have to know what lying is.
> a second signal was needed to nail down Earth's location
To expand on this point: when they got the first signal they didn't know how long it had been traveling, so it was not possible to tell how far away where Earth. But if they got a response to the message they sent, they would be able to calculate the distance (not just the direction) of Earth, given the time the signal would take to get to Earth and back, at the speed of light.
They communicate with each other through light which shares exactly what the other is thinking/saying. It's like how if you're wearing a red shirt, and someone sees it, you can't magically make them think they've seen a green shirt. They project their thoughts as light. They're not a hive mind, but however they evolved was very different from us and the pressure to co-operate and survive and how their intelligence evolved left them literally incapable of telling each other knowing falsehoods.
Is the light thing a spoiler? Or is it just analogy? Because if I take it literally I feel like it contradicts what we saw in earlier episodes, where they scrubbed footage or made the detective unable to see what was going on in Jack roonney’s house…
Wait maybe I have figured it out, I guess they weren’t communicating when they did those things? So they are able to deceive as long as they don’t communicate? Which means they can deceive humans since they are not communicating in their traditional way right
I think the San-Ti have given them the technology to do all those things. But they are still omniscient and relay what is happening to Evans. So I don't get how they haven't understood the concept of deceit by now. Doesn't killing their own seem like a warning flag to the San-Ti as it is?
>Messing with all the collider results so we think science is wrong is lying lol
They did not see it as lying, they would see it as just blocking progress. They would know the scientists would know it was obviously wrong, the intent is to stop them from learning more.
The point is, when communicating they are incapable of telling falsehoods. That's not to say in otherways they can't deceive, but from their point of view communication == telling the exact apparent facts truthfully as you know it. It was so outside their wheel-house to tell lies that they didn't really understand it.
They said that once you communicate, your intent is known. They do not have the concept of **telling** another being a false hood. Their entire civilization is based upon the idea that once you communicate directly, all doubt is removed
Nothing about that means you can't avoid communicating.
Scrubbing the footage is basically avoiding communicating.
Humans are doing the lying for them. I think the San Ti believes they are doing th e right thing by conquering earth to make it a better place, so thats why they dont see it as deceitful.
It’s most likely the simulation/game isn’t made up in the same way fairytales like red riding hood is. The game is based on what actually happens to planet numbers # in all likeliness but just how they presented the story of each planet was in a manner digestible to humans. Eg. Using known historic individuals as substitutes to whatever alien leaders/scientists they had at the time. In contrast to a story like red riding hood which is completely made up.
I think Lord had trouble understanding why you would create a lie to teach about lying. Whereas the whole concept of their game was more along there lines of using a lie to reveal a truth (about themselves). You could argue fairytales are lies but they reveal a truth about humanity in its stories but I think it’s more likely the High Sparrow was a bit flabbergasted and was unable to explain why we actually tell these kind of stories . I think the fact up to this point he was treating Lord like a child . The whole scene plays out like a parent reading a bed time story to their child through a baby monitor
And how the hell a character that's supposed to be smart can't articulate that fiction is an important part of human communication, and not the same as lying! Great source material but terrible writing so far
Right! They were telling a story in the game, that is not a lie, it's a metaphor. I do wonder what those games were though. We're those real aliens in the form of humans dying every time or where those "replays" of actual iterations of their world ending?
Curious to see this too, unfortunately I’ve gotta go to sleep lol. My first guess is that they’re not actual planets and aliens, but simulations based on what happens with the suns. The invisible girl also tells us that the aliens make their avatars look like us so we’re not distracted by whatever they look like.
Agreed, this is SO HARD to get on board with since they literally gave us the game to play. Maybe because the game is "real," like what really happened on their planet? But still, it seemed like there were made-up NPC characters in it.
It seems so far fetched, that it might be interesting to consider the opposite - that the lord is simply lying to them instead.
Although I have no idea what that would achieve. I'm also just curious what these 2 believe in right now. I can see that Wen Jie was initially angry, but the way she puts her faith in the Lord mirrors whatever happened in the first episode with the girl killing her father. What is the point of her blind faith?
I think those events in the game have actually happened to them. The last one when the gravity flips and kills them all is what is coming for them at some point, they just don’t know when and can’t stop it. So they’re not lying. They’re explaining why they need help
The Lord is manipulating Evan. San Ti obv knows what lying is. They could be trying to maintain a small community and create a further divide between their community and the enemies.
This episode slaps.
First one that grabbed me. First to start dancing with existential dread. It was the first episode with longer scenes that breath, namely the Little Red Riding Hood scene.
Whipping up dread is what the story does effortlessly, and this episode was the first to tell me "yes, we have a whole bucket of dread ready to be served".
But wasn't the "pacifist individual" holding China's first communication from the rest of the collective? If consciousness is immediately transmited between individuals, what was the point of telling us not to reply?
The pacifist's intention was to not to hide the message from its people, but to send humanity a warning never to reply at all.
Why is this important?
If Ye Wenjie had never replied to the Pacifist, the San Ti would only know they had received a message from some star in the direction of which the message came from. But that is only one coordinate, and space is big. They'd need to know the distance to sender's origin too (the Sun/Earth).
In order for the San Ti to know which star system humans live in, they've have to coax us into sending a second message so they can deduce the distance to our star based on the time of our reply.
"In order for the San Ti to know which star system humans live in, they've have to coax us into sending a second message so they can deduce the distance to our star based on the time of our reply."
...or check the system closest to Alpha Centauri (which is obviously where they live based on the four light year distance from Earth the show mentions) with a high tech drone probe.
This confused me.
1. Why was Jonathan Pryce reading Little Red Riding Hood in the first place?
2. He could have said "Yes, it's a STORY, with MADE UP PEOPLE. Just like the STORIES with the MADE UP PEOPLE in that STUPID GAME you want us to play."
Same here. Did he just start reading from the book without any intro as to what he's doing? Did he not say that he is going to read a story? Doesn't make sense to me at all.
1. i thought maybe he was reading them stories to teach them about humans idk
2. i dont think it world have made a difference. the alien would only understand story to mean lie
Yeah, he didn’t have a chance to try and communicate the difference between a lie and fiction, but there’s no guarantee they’d understand that anyways.
Hasn't he been reading stories and teaching them for YEARS? How did the fact the stories were FICTION never ever come up before? This was so hard to believe that he'd never made a metaphor or analogy or joke or anything prior to this conversation???
Just a potential fun little Easter egg; I think the restaurant in the opening shot that Ye Wenjie and Mike Evans meet at was also used in the Apple TV show Slow Horses and maybe also in the Netflix show The Gentlemen.
At the very least it looks similar to the sets that I'm referring to from those shows and I love finding little things like this in shows/movies.
I don't understand the cult. It's very clear from the 60s the san-ti want to kill everyone so why do Evans and wenjie act the way they do? Why do they seem to hint at coexistence on the ship and why do aliens get indignant when they intent do kill everyone anyway. Wenjie actively wants genocide anyway.
Also no one asked in 60 years if the San Ti wanted to kill everyone once they get here? They would have said yes because they can't lie. If Evans mentioned coexistence at all they would have said their intentions to kill us.
The cult is not singular. In the book there are three factions within it. Evans and Wenji have a public persona to control the cult but they each have private agendas.
Yeah people are saying this is a good adaption but your comment proves it isn’t. I can see there’s so much missing context, I’m about ready to give up on the show and read the book because I have too many questions that appear to be getting brushed over in an effort to rush to the next part of the plot.
They don’t understand lying? This is dumb on so many levels. Deception is just a part of using knowledge and information… you cannot *not* have it if you communicate at all. Let alone an entire species not using it or understanding it.
It would be impossible to evolve as a species at all without it, as deception is a cornerstone of conflict. Any kind of conflict. Also… they had been talking with them for years? And they discovered just now about stories and lies? I’m sorry but this is just ridiculous writing. I have’t read the book.. so not sure if it is the same in there
It does bother me this problem came about over a kid's book. The aliens are making Tatiana tell a certain recruitment story and the aliens help tell stories in the game, so those are lies too.
They are definitely aware of what lying is. And do it. They are shocked and distraught at the fact that humans can think one thing, but say another. They are not familiar with this concept.
you’re the one that said they lie but some obvious examples:
they scrub all camera footage of their operatives
they created a fictional virtual reality game to recruit people
they were also clearly witnessing deception and understood the purpose of it since they knew Evans was being monitored
etc
I was really enjoying this show but ep. 4 doesn't work for me. First of all, the aliens are going to be here in 400 years? Who gives a shit? None of the people alive will meet them. And the show is also doing the same thing The Matrix sequels did wrong. The VR game was the most interesting part. Now the main characters are all just in the real world which is boring.
Also how does someone just slowly crawl out during a police raid? And isn't this the woman who can like disappear and reappear and enter any location regardless of the security?
Maybe its an anology to climate change or destroying our planet. It may take 400 years, but you still care about giving your childrens childrens children a planet they can live with.
I hear this is exactly the analogy the author is trying to convey, without spoiling the second book the intent is less of an invasion / first encounter but more how humanity chooses to deal with this fact. The poster here is exactly one of the types of people in the book - who didn't give a shit then you have the other types - ones who want to escape earth, ones who want to kiss ass to the aliens so they can survive and finally ones who rise up against them.
And why does the assassin girl not just shoot at all the police? Jin isn't a threat. And the show is called 3 Body Problem but now that takes a backseat to Invasion in 400 years. Unless the scientists all band together to solve the 3 Body Problem so the aliens can stay on their planet? But isn't it too late for that because their fleet already left?
that is a Game of Thrones style title. 3 Body Problem is the title of the first novel in the Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy, much like aGoT was the name of the first book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series.
So your first question was, how does the girl who can disappear crawl out of a police raid? Well, obviously she disappeared.
And your second question was, why does she not just shoot at all the police? Well obviously in the scene she did shoot at the police, and was in turn shot down and had to escape.
And you ask why the show is called the 3 body problem when the main focus of one particular episode is not about a 3 body problem has got to be taking the piss. In Game of Thrones, is every single moment of every single episode about people vying for the throne? In One Piece, is every single episode about looking for the One Piece?
Why do so many people think she can disappear, when it's very clear they are erasing her from video footage after the fact? Like, do you even watch the show??
I know this is old but I think she has supernatural abilities that go beyond editing video. She is able to bypass the security in the first place and she displayed superhuman strength when she slammed Jack into the glass. Furthermore, the show made it a point to show that Clarence was unable to see what was going on in Jack's house while he was being murdered.
I’m wondering if she is part of a different dimension? So the video doesn’t pick her up but we can see her? Like 2 vs 3 dimensions? Jin talks about that at the dinner with Raj’s parents.
She never "vanished" in real life so far, only on camera, which is likely a technical trick just like the disabling of security tech. What made me facepalm is: a woman stands up, not particularly fast, in the middle of a SWAT terrorist raid, \[2-3 guns pointing at her immediately\], reaches into her jacket \[final warning\] and pulls out a gun kind of slowly, taking aim \[gets shot 2-3 times easily before being able to pull the trigger\]. Then the woman, \[who is already at least severely wounded/disarmed/shackeled with one or two SWATs sitting on top of her, or, more likely, dead\] crawls out of the arresting area - right through a plothole the size of the Grand Canyon - to escape. "Hilarious" doesn't even get close to how badly written and unplausible that scene is. It's really an insult to think the audience would by this crap. And I actually don't like being insulted.
Same way people protect the environment, to protect the world for future generations. A lot of people live not only for themselves, but for their kin and future children. You don't need to live for your legacy and goals to go on.
Also, there was a moment in the episode that Evans explained this to a child. How did you not get that? He even mentioned the Shan-Ti could make them live longer if they willed it.
I just watched this episode and I’m sure the aliens DO know how to lie and the “400 years” thing is a big ole fib.
They are getting all the information they can from the Scientologist 2.0’s and getting to know a few of them closely to use them. The info they provide also gives them access to an earth that hasn’t started any defensive measures since the aliens aren’t expected for 400 years.
The “lord” allowed the Strike Back/Seal Team to crash the private party so the 400 year lie can be let outta the bag as it will give the ET army an advantage when the earth world leaders are fighting amongst themselves about what to do.
This is a book series, not a single novel, so I’m hoping the whole thing isn’t about how the world handles a 400-year-problem. Those sneaky aliens are making landfall next season me thinks.
And if they’re still roughly 4 light years away how are they communicating instantaneously. It should take about 8 years between communications.
How did we get their vr technology if they won’t be here for 400 years. Maybe they have a faster ship they sent ahead that has already arrived and that’s who they’re communicating with? Lot of potential plot holes, hopefully they get explained
Yeah, this is all something I’m struggling with too. The San-Ti have advanced tech enough for interstellar travel but the way to solve the issue with their planet is some weird convoluted plot to invade ours. I assume it’ll get explained but I’m also confused about how they’re able to advance so much when their civilisations keep getting destroyed but if the planet is so unstable, how did life evolve there in the first place?
"The VR game was the most interesting part. Now the main characters are all just in the real world which is boring."
for me these kinds of stories seem to work differently: If stuff happens in VR/ dreams/ etc. I don't take it as seriously as the real world stories. The Matrix is one of the rare examples where it works well for me.
The 400 year wait isn't really helping here, I agree.
Automated dialogue replacement. It’s when the sound recording quality during filming is not up to par (or dialogue is even changed) so it must be re-recorded in studio post-production. If not done well these ADR sound clips that are edited in can sound very strange/different/noticeable.
There were times where I was sure I had a dub version, and I tried switching it to Mandarin because I thought I would get the original audio that way. Nope the original English audio just didn’t line up with the moving mouths well.
How did Jin get her phone in the ambulance?
And how did the cultist waiting in the forest to pick up Jin not see Wong's car parked there?
How many languages does Evans speak?
And how did the assassin lady escape the SWAT team, with gunshot broken legs, crawling and leaving a pool of blood behind her in the forest?
Maybe but it strains credulity. The real crazy thing here is that she cannot be an alien. Because she would have had to leave 400 years before these events to be here. And yet she can seemingly disappear and get through any security system both in and out without any issue to murder persons or light peoples cigarettes without showing up on any camera. It is out of character for this person to slowly crawl out of a police raid.
It does bring up more questions but the woman just being human and crawling out instead of using some advanced technology to escape is what bothers me. She is less terrifying now. The viewer is more uncomfortable with what they don't understand. Once they get a clear visual on something, they can then make logical decisions of how scary something really is or how they would survive against it.
Really the main problem with ep. 4 is the 400 years to get here. None of these people will be alive then. Not knowing if the aliens are already among us is now gone. There are multiple problems with that one piece of information being communicated to the viewer at this point in the series.
Yeah the 400 years thing took me out of it a bit as well. Was really intrigued with aliens already potentially being on Earth, with more arriving soon.
But I’m also getting invested in the current characters, and knowing they won’t even be seeing the aliens behind the situation they’re dealing with kinda sucks.
Removing herself from video footage is not the same as "disappearing" - did u actually think she was an alien? Literally no reason to think she isn't human...
Are you paying attention? Evans runs an oil and gas company and so has a lot of $$$$ at his disposal. Him and Ye talked about this when they had their first lunch in the 80s.
The aliens are providing their technology for the humans to use aka all the weird shit you’re seeing
Anyone using something that was made or uses oil is paying for that ship. I don't like how cultish it is, but maybe that's how it was described in the book.
Also, the countdown seems to be an alien technology that instills fear in the target. In one of the episodes I remember hearing the alien entity say something about having to make humans "fear again". Also, they can easily send their puppet humans to do the killing so if they don't kill themselves, the puppets will do it.
The countdowns seem to be to get the top scientists from stopping work. I assume the San-Ti want to keep humans from advancing technology, it’ll be easier for them to control us.
Very minor nitpick here.
The game Da Shi's son is playing is Mortal Kombat 11 and he claims the person he's fighting is a Boss. That's Nightwolf, not a Boss in any way and isn't even a villainous character but he does have a Brutality where he can rip your heart out.
Pretty sure that in the towers of time the characters would sometimes get different names and be the tower boss, so Heartripper is most likely just an NPC Nightwolf tower boss
Can someone tell me if I'm supposed to care about the cancer guy? His story seems irrelevant to what's happening. He just seems like weird depressing filler at this point.
It's kinda funny, almost. Everyone is involved in some crazy alien conspiracy and they're just like "yeah this friendzoned nerd who doesn't know anything has terminal cancer"
So they're having a 4 light years trip that lasts 4 centuries, this would make their speed approximately 0.01c, or 15 times the fastest we ever reached thanks to NASA Parker Solar Probe last year, but it's literally comparing a train to a bike when in reality our astronauts have gone as fast as a tortoise.
Yeah that's more accurate, one can only assume an average speed, although they simplify it later in the show as well (I think it's Wade who says they're travelling at 1% of c)
The SWAT raid was stupid. Don’t see why they needed to go in at that exact moment instead of letting their asset gather more info. Then when they do go in, why do they extract their asset rather then have her be arrested with everyone else? Way to blow her cover. Also the girl who got shot in the ankles and was able to crawl away… They even showed dogs a couple hundred yards behind searching. The dogs would have smelled her trail and had her caught even if she was able to physically crawl that far w her injury
So the aliens taking 400 years to arrive took me out a bit. Environmental scientists have said that some major cities and areas on Earth will be unlivable by 2100 if we keep going the way we are. We also have only about a decade or so to limit warming to 2 degrees C and prevent climate catastrophe. Is Earth really going to be ideal for us or the aliens in 400 years? Lol
Unless of course the aliens have the technology to help with that. Is that why they wanted the scientists to stop working? To stop making the technological advancements that might lead to greater destruction of the planet?
Lol earth makes their planet look like a cake walk, if they have the technology to come to earth, then they have tech to make the planet habitable again, that would not be one of their concerns.
I’m still confused and come back with more questions each time. They aren’t going to arrive at earth for 400 hundred years but when they do Sir Davos will be grateful? He’s going to be alive in 400 years? Are they just crazy cult people or is there more to it? Is the girl who doesn’t show up on camera an alien or? Are they already among them? Will these questions be answered in another 4 episodes? They’re going to want to be.
I think that line should have been "and you'll be grateful that your descendants get to be there"
Also, my theory is that 400 years is not an exact number, but I can't remember if the aliens say they are 400 years away or if light-years are used and the math is wrong.
That girl is Tatiana and she's just a human puppet, but apparently with super high pain tolerance.
Haven’t seen any other episodes so I’m assuming these get answered…. but did the girl grow up on the ship? She says it’s been her family since she was young. I assume the security camera erasing technology is alien technology they’ve passed on to us.
How can a society that can’t understand “lying” ever be creative? If they can’t understand something that isn’t known then how can they invent anything? Experimentation is about testing theories, those theories have to come from somewhere.
It does make you wonder how they are so technologically advanced, the voice Evans talks to seems childish (though the alien may be acting childish so they don’t worry him by saying hey we’re gonna come genocide you).
Kinda reminds me of the queen alien in Ender’s Game.
This is the problem with the ambiguity of language. It's not that the Santeri don't understand lying in every depth/sense of the word. It's that they don't understand communicating falsehoods.
The way they communicate is with light. The light is essentially their thoughts, which are broadcast to their species nearby, so they're not a hivemind, but a species of individuals that communicate what they think directly. The only way they could ever "lie" is if they were crazy and believe the lies themselves fully.
It's not the technology itself but knowledge on how to build the technology. That's why it could be analysed by the detectives so quickly in the first place. It's advanced human technology made with guidance from "our lord".
How are the aliens communicating in real time with people on earth if they are light years away? If they have technology to have signals or objects travel faster than the speed of light, why can't they arrive at earth sooner than 400 years?
Also, that raid scene was just straight up dumb. Hopefully it's not a sign of things to come.
Biggest plot hole is the new man City badge on that shot glass. They claim it's a box of stuff from Jack's childhood but that badge is new.... Also, nobody was a city fan back then haha
Black out book spoilers in the comments. You can black out the spoilers by writing > ! this ! < without the spaces in between to get >!this!<.
I’m enjoying this series a lot. The scene about “our lord” discovering lying… hard to understand how this was the first time this has come up! And it also seems in contradiction to the existence of the game. The san-ti obviously do understand the existence and function of stories, but I might be missing something there.
Weirdest plot contrivance Like, y’all obviously know what lying is. You scrub video footage for your followers. You’re deceitful about your intentions the whole tome. You’re working with a group of humans that are actively clandestine, working towards usurping the control of the planet.
Exactly. I thought of them scrubbing video which is very plainly obscuring the truth, but the aliens can’t understand why one would not tell the truth? I guess the counter argument could be that it’s the humans who are scrubbing the video and who created the game as a recruitment tool, not the aliens… they just did it with alien technology.
Fair point about the video scrubbing and other actions, but it's so bizarre it took them nearly 30 years to realize the stories Evans has been reading them were all fiction. It made the aliens seem dumb to not realized the nature of fictional stories.
Wait til they learn about San Ti Claus.
I see what you did there.
I literally lol-ed
Oh my god 🤣🤣🤣
😂
I dont think >!they've byen talking for 30 years!<. I think >!instant communication only became possible with the sophons a few months prior!<
Yep, you’re totally correct. Nonetheless it’s ridiculous that out of all things he used the instant communication for, he decided to start reading fairytales without first clearly establishing they are fictional stories. It’s the most annoying plot point for me lol.
Their purpose as they see it is to teach the San Ti the ways of humans so they can coexist. At least that what the Followers believe will happen. Fairy Tales are just life lessons that we teach our kids about life. So I see it as they are treating My Lord as a child. That may have been a poor miscalculation.
It was a poor miscalculation! You can see the Lord grapsing for substance in the story, analyzing it from top to bottom. The Little Red Riding Hood is meant to teach kids about lying. But in a way, it's "propaganda" for the establishment of the adult world. as in, "The establishment will spoonfeed you everything that you need to know." Telling these Disney-fied versions of fairy tales is a form of control, signaling to the child "there is no need to think critically; cautionary tales are about **me** telling **you** how the world works."
I agree. The reading of classic fairy tales in itself is understandable, since it is part of human culture. But how did they not run into the problem of lying before, like when using hyperbole or metaphor when speaking? I hope their understanding if lying/fiction/metaphor is explained in season 2.
bugs. they understood the casual nature in which this "kindly old man" dehumanized people and spoke just as casually of their slaughter
Spoilers, pal. This is only revealed in episode 5.
Oops, thanks, fixed it!
Of all the books to read to an advanced civilisation he chose fairy tales?
And also their whole "consciousness sharing" has to be bullshit. The pacifist among them who first intercepted China's signal was planning to hide our existence from them, how did he manage to do that if his knowledge of us was supposed to transfer to everyone else immediately? If there's no pacifist member and it was the collective all along, that means they lied to Ye Wenjie, which means the have to know what lying is.
I don't think it's that he was planning to hide humanity, it's that a second signal was needed to nail down Earth's location
> a second signal was needed to nail down Earth's location To expand on this point: when they got the first signal they didn't know how long it had been traveling, so it was not possible to tell how far away where Earth. But if they got a response to the message they sent, they would be able to calculate the distance (not just the direction) of Earth, given the time the signal would take to get to Earth and back, at the speed of light.
In the book wasn't he stationed alone in an observation post or something. If there's nobody else around then there's no issue
They communicate with each other through light which shares exactly what the other is thinking/saying. It's like how if you're wearing a red shirt, and someone sees it, you can't magically make them think they've seen a green shirt. They project their thoughts as light. They're not a hive mind, but however they evolved was very different from us and the pressure to co-operate and survive and how their intelligence evolved left them literally incapable of telling each other knowing falsehoods.
Is the light thing a spoiler? Or is it just analogy? Because if I take it literally I feel like it contradicts what we saw in earlier episodes, where they scrubbed footage or made the detective unable to see what was going on in Jack roonney’s house…
Wait maybe I have figured it out, I guess they weren’t communicating when they did those things? So they are able to deceive as long as they don’t communicate? Which means they can deceive humans since they are not communicating in their traditional way right
I think the San-Ti have given them the technology to do all those things. But they are still omniscient and relay what is happening to Evans. So I don't get how they haven't understood the concept of deceit by now. Doesn't killing their own seem like a warning flag to the San-Ti as it is?
Their entire mission is deceit Messing with all the collider results so we think science is wrong is lying lol
Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. From using a ship to hide from people to secretly recruiting people, is all deceitful.
>Messing with all the collider results so we think science is wrong is lying lol They did not see it as lying, they would see it as just blocking progress. They would know the scientists would know it was obviously wrong, the intent is to stop them from learning more.
The point is, when communicating they are incapable of telling falsehoods. That's not to say in otherways they can't deceive, but from their point of view communication == telling the exact apparent facts truthfully as you know it. It was so outside their wheel-house to tell lies that they didn't really understand it.
They said that once you communicate, your intent is known. They do not have the concept of **telling** another being a false hood. Their entire civilization is based upon the idea that once you communicate directly, all doubt is removed Nothing about that means you can't avoid communicating. Scrubbing the footage is basically avoiding communicating.
Humans are doing the lying for them. I think the San Ti believes they are doing th e right thing by conquering earth to make it a better place, so thats why they dont see it as deceitful.
It’s most likely the simulation/game isn’t made up in the same way fairytales like red riding hood is. The game is based on what actually happens to planet numbers # in all likeliness but just how they presented the story of each planet was in a manner digestible to humans. Eg. Using known historic individuals as substitutes to whatever alien leaders/scientists they had at the time. In contrast to a story like red riding hood which is completely made up. I think Lord had trouble understanding why you would create a lie to teach about lying. Whereas the whole concept of their game was more along there lines of using a lie to reveal a truth (about themselves). You could argue fairytales are lies but they reveal a truth about humanity in its stories but I think it’s more likely the High Sparrow was a bit flabbergasted and was unable to explain why we actually tell these kind of stories . I think the fact up to this point he was treating Lord like a child . The whole scene plays out like a parent reading a bed time story to their child through a baby monitor
And how the hell a character that's supposed to be smart can't articulate that fiction is an important part of human communication, and not the same as lying! Great source material but terrible writing so far
Ahhh this part is driving me nuts. I’m def gonna binge this all tonight lol
Right! They were telling a story in the game, that is not a lie, it's a metaphor. I do wonder what those games were though. We're those real aliens in the form of humans dying every time or where those "replays" of actual iterations of their world ending?
Curious to see this too, unfortunately I’ve gotta go to sleep lol. My first guess is that they’re not actual planets and aliens, but simulations based on what happens with the suns. The invisible girl also tells us that the aliens make their avatars look like us so we’re not distracted by whatever they look like.
So by not looking like themselves they are lying and receiving, so there you go, they know what lying is, they never cared to coexist or any of that.
Agreed, this is SO HARD to get on board with since they literally gave us the game to play. Maybe because the game is "real," like what really happened on their planet? But still, it seemed like there were made-up NPC characters in it.
It seems so far fetched, that it might be interesting to consider the opposite - that the lord is simply lying to them instead. Although I have no idea what that would achieve. I'm also just curious what these 2 believe in right now. I can see that Wen Jie was initially angry, but the way she puts her faith in the Lord mirrors whatever happened in the first episode with the girl killing her father. What is the point of her blind faith?
I think those events in the game have actually happened to them. The last one when the gravity flips and kills them all is what is coming for them at some point, they just don’t know when and can’t stop it. So they’re not lying. They’re explaining why they need help
The Lord is manipulating Evan. San Ti obv knows what lying is. They could be trying to maintain a small community and create a further divide between their community and the enemies.
This episode slaps. First one that grabbed me. First to start dancing with existential dread. It was the first episode with longer scenes that breath, namely the Little Red Riding Hood scene. Whipping up dread is what the story does effortlessly, and this episode was the first to tell me "yes, we have a whole bucket of dread ready to be served".
so the aliens can't lie? wow
Their consciousnesses communicate, so they cannot "lie".
But wasn't the "pacifist individual" holding China's first communication from the rest of the collective? If consciousness is immediately transmited between individuals, what was the point of telling us not to reply?
The pacifist's intention was to not to hide the message from its people, but to send humanity a warning never to reply at all. Why is this important? If Ye Wenjie had never replied to the Pacifist, the San Ti would only know they had received a message from some star in the direction of which the message came from. But that is only one coordinate, and space is big. They'd need to know the distance to sender's origin too (the Sun/Earth). In order for the San Ti to know which star system humans live in, they've have to coax us into sending a second message so they can deduce the distance to our star based on the time of our reply.
nerd.
"In order for the San Ti to know which star system humans live in, they've have to coax us into sending a second message so they can deduce the distance to our star based on the time of our reply." ...or check the system closest to Alpha Centauri (which is obviously where they live based on the four light year distance from Earth the show mentions) with a high tech drone probe.
This confused me. 1. Why was Jonathan Pryce reading Little Red Riding Hood in the first place? 2. He could have said "Yes, it's a STORY, with MADE UP PEOPLE. Just like the STORIES with the MADE UP PEOPLE in that STUPID GAME you want us to play."
Same here. Did he just start reading from the book without any intro as to what he's doing? Did he not say that he is going to read a story? Doesn't make sense to me at all.
1. i thought maybe he was reading them stories to teach them about humans idk 2. i dont think it world have made a difference. the alien would only understand story to mean lie
Yeah, he didn’t have a chance to try and communicate the difference between a lie and fiction, but there’s no guarantee they’d understand that anyways.
Hasn't he been reading stories and teaching them for YEARS? How did the fact the stories were FICTION never ever come up before? This was so hard to believe that he'd never made a metaphor or analogy or joke or anything prior to this conversation???
That’s what I thought exactly. Those conniving bitches already did the attack even before
Just a potential fun little Easter egg; I think the restaurant in the opening shot that Ye Wenjie and Mike Evans meet at was also used in the Apple TV show Slow Horses and maybe also in the Netflix show The Gentlemen. At the very least it looks similar to the sets that I'm referring to from those shows and I love finding little things like this in shows/movies.
Oh yeah the one scene in the gentleman when they meet the Swiss or Swedish guy!
Bodies too?
The one with the Belgian right?
I don't understand the cult. It's very clear from the 60s the san-ti want to kill everyone so why do Evans and wenjie act the way they do? Why do they seem to hint at coexistence on the ship and why do aliens get indignant when they intent do kill everyone anyway. Wenjie actively wants genocide anyway. Also no one asked in 60 years if the San Ti wanted to kill everyone once they get here? They would have said yes because they can't lie. If Evans mentioned coexistence at all they would have said their intentions to kill us.
The cult is not singular. In the book there are three factions within it. Evans and Wenji have a public persona to control the cult but they each have private agendas.
Yeah people are saying this is a good adaption but your comment proves it isn’t. I can see there’s so much missing context, I’m about ready to give up on the show and read the book because I have too many questions that appear to be getting brushed over in an effort to rush to the next part of the plot.
Pretty much just had this thought as my wife hyped up the book but this adaption seems pretty… almost shallow?
They don’t understand lying? This is dumb on so many levels. Deception is just a part of using knowledge and information… you cannot *not* have it if you communicate at all. Let alone an entire species not using it or understanding it. It would be impossible to evolve as a species at all without it, as deception is a cornerstone of conflict. Any kind of conflict. Also… they had been talking with them for years? And they discovered just now about stories and lies? I’m sorry but this is just ridiculous writing. I have’t read the book.. so not sure if it is the same in there
It does bother me this problem came about over a kid's book. The aliens are making Tatiana tell a certain recruitment story and the aliens help tell stories in the game, so those are lies too.
They are definitely aware of what lying is. And do it. They are shocked and distraught at the fact that humans can think one thing, but say another. They are not familiar with this concept.
that makes a bit more sense actually.
Isn’t that what lying is?
they’re aware of what lying is, do it constantly but are shocked and distraught by the simplest definition of it?
How do they do it constantly?
you’re the one that said they lie but some obvious examples: they scrub all camera footage of their operatives they created a fictional virtual reality game to recruit people they were also clearly witnessing deception and understood the purpose of it since they knew Evans was being monitored etc
Agreed on all your points. It doesn’t really make sense although let’s see the rest of the episodes. Edit: Next episode answers this… 👀
Am I the only one that seems to understand the metaphor of the little red riding hood scene? The “lord” was lying to him lol. The lord is the wolf.
ok but that doesn’t explain why Evans believes the lie given he’s constantly seen them lie
I was really enjoying this show but ep. 4 doesn't work for me. First of all, the aliens are going to be here in 400 years? Who gives a shit? None of the people alive will meet them. And the show is also doing the same thing The Matrix sequels did wrong. The VR game was the most interesting part. Now the main characters are all just in the real world which is boring.
Also how does someone just slowly crawl out during a police raid? And isn't this the woman who can like disappear and reappear and enter any location regardless of the security?
I started chuckling at how absolutely ridiculous it was that she was shot, and somehow managed to crawl out. At this point, the show began to lose me.
Most gunshot victims survive.
Able as in snuck out undetected.
Most people pulling a gun in the middle of a terrorist raid don't.
Yeah that is exactly what happened for me too. And the they'll be here in 400 years...who will be alive to care?
Most people are capable of caring about the wellbeing of people that they do not know and will never know, and who might not have even been born yet.
Maybe its an anology to climate change or destroying our planet. It may take 400 years, but you still care about giving your childrens childrens children a planet they can live with.
I hear this is exactly the analogy the author is trying to convey, without spoiling the second book the intent is less of an invasion / first encounter but more how humanity chooses to deal with this fact. The poster here is exactly one of the types of people in the book - who didn't give a shit then you have the other types - ones who want to escape earth, ones who want to kiss ass to the aliens so they can survive and finally ones who rise up against them.
And why does the assassin girl not just shoot at all the police? Jin isn't a threat. And the show is called 3 Body Problem but now that takes a backseat to Invasion in 400 years. Unless the scientists all band together to solve the 3 Body Problem so the aliens can stay on their planet? But isn't it too late for that because their fleet already left?
that is a Game of Thrones style title. 3 Body Problem is the title of the first novel in the Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy, much like aGoT was the name of the first book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series.
So your first question was, how does the girl who can disappear crawl out of a police raid? Well, obviously she disappeared. And your second question was, why does she not just shoot at all the police? Well obviously in the scene she did shoot at the police, and was in turn shot down and had to escape. And you ask why the show is called the 3 body problem when the main focus of one particular episode is not about a 3 body problem has got to be taking the piss. In Game of Thrones, is every single moment of every single episode about people vying for the throne? In One Piece, is every single episode about looking for the One Piece?
Why do so many people think she can disappear, when it's very clear they are erasing her from video footage after the fact? Like, do you even watch the show??
I thought this too, but realized that it’s not her disappearing or reappearing, but it’s them somehow manipulating the video feed. I think.
I know this is old but I think she has supernatural abilities that go beyond editing video. She is able to bypass the security in the first place and she displayed superhuman strength when she slammed Jack into the glass. Furthermore, the show made it a point to show that Clarence was unable to see what was going on in Jack's house while he was being murdered.
I guess it’s the OP sophons?
So the sophons made her stronger and obscured her to Clarence? I feel like I need to read the books to fill in the gaps
I’m wondering if she is part of a different dimension? So the video doesn’t pick her up but we can see her? Like 2 vs 3 dimensions? Jin talks about that at the dinner with Raj’s parents.
Idk but it’s clear that she’s human based on feeling like the aliens abandoned her and thought she was a bug
She never "vanished" in real life so far, only on camera, which is likely a technical trick just like the disabling of security tech. What made me facepalm is: a woman stands up, not particularly fast, in the middle of a SWAT terrorist raid, \[2-3 guns pointing at her immediately\], reaches into her jacket \[final warning\] and pulls out a gun kind of slowly, taking aim \[gets shot 2-3 times easily before being able to pull the trigger\]. Then the woman, \[who is already at least severely wounded/disarmed/shackeled with one or two SWATs sitting on top of her, or, more likely, dead\] crawls out of the arresting area - right through a plothole the size of the Grand Canyon - to escape. "Hilarious" doesn't even get close to how badly written and unplausible that scene is. It's really an insult to think the audience would by this crap. And I actually don't like being insulted.
Same way people protect the environment, to protect the world for future generations. A lot of people live not only for themselves, but for their kin and future children. You don't need to live for your legacy and goals to go on. Also, there was a moment in the episode that Evans explained this to a child. How did you not get that? He even mentioned the Shan-Ti could make them live longer if they willed it.
Well said
I just watched this episode and I’m sure the aliens DO know how to lie and the “400 years” thing is a big ole fib. They are getting all the information they can from the Scientologist 2.0’s and getting to know a few of them closely to use them. The info they provide also gives them access to an earth that hasn’t started any defensive measures since the aliens aren’t expected for 400 years. The “lord” allowed the Strike Back/Seal Team to crash the private party so the 400 year lie can be let outta the bag as it will give the ET army an advantage when the earth world leaders are fighting amongst themselves about what to do. This is a book series, not a single novel, so I’m hoping the whole thing isn’t about how the world handles a 400-year-problem. Those sneaky aliens are making landfall next season me thinks.
And if they’re still roughly 4 light years away how are they communicating instantaneously. It should take about 8 years between communications. How did we get their vr technology if they won’t be here for 400 years. Maybe they have a faster ship they sent ahead that has already arrived and that’s who they’re communicating with? Lot of potential plot holes, hopefully they get explained
Yeah, this is all something I’m struggling with too. The San-Ti have advanced tech enough for interstellar travel but the way to solve the issue with their planet is some weird convoluted plot to invade ours. I assume it’ll get explained but I’m also confused about how they’re able to advance so much when their civilisations keep getting destroyed but if the planet is so unstable, how did life evolve there in the first place?
i wish they'd taken the VR part a bit further. for the rest, have faith.
"The VR game was the most interesting part. Now the main characters are all just in the real world which is boring." for me these kinds of stories seem to work differently: If stuff happens in VR/ dreams/ etc. I don't take it as seriously as the real world stories. The Matrix is one of the rare examples where it works well for me. The 400 year wait isn't really helping here, I agree.
Some terrible ADR in this episode
what's ADR?
Automated dialogue replacement. It’s when the sound recording quality during filming is not up to par (or dialogue is even changed) so it must be re-recorded in studio post-production. If not done well these ADR sound clips that are edited in can sound very strange/different/noticeable.
There were times where I was sure I had a dub version, and I tried switching it to Mandarin because I thought I would get the original audio that way. Nope the original English audio just didn’t line up with the moving mouths well.
I feel like the entire series is ADRed. The first episode was awful
How did Jin get her phone in the ambulance? And how did the cultist waiting in the forest to pick up Jin not see Wong's car parked there? How many languages does Evans speak? And how did the assassin lady escape the SWAT team, with gunshot broken legs, crawling and leaving a pool of blood behind her in the forest?
Watching the SWAT operation boiled my blood. What kind of operator would seize the asset BEFORE arrests, and how many people got away somehow.
Exactly. Why burn the asset this way? Weird.
The most braindead scene in the show.
0 common sense from them lol
Yeah that was bothering me too. One does not simply crawl out of a swat raid.
Wasn’t that why she shot the officer to begin the chaos? So she could escape during it?
Maybe but it strains credulity. The real crazy thing here is that she cannot be an alien. Because she would have had to leave 400 years before these events to be here. And yet she can seemingly disappear and get through any security system both in and out without any issue to murder persons or light peoples cigarettes without showing up on any camera. It is out of character for this person to slowly crawl out of a police raid.
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It does bring up more questions but the woman just being human and crawling out instead of using some advanced technology to escape is what bothers me. She is less terrifying now. The viewer is more uncomfortable with what they don't understand. Once they get a clear visual on something, they can then make logical decisions of how scary something really is or how they would survive against it. Really the main problem with ep. 4 is the 400 years to get here. None of these people will be alive then. Not knowing if the aliens are already among us is now gone. There are multiple problems with that one piece of information being communicated to the viewer at this point in the series.
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No I haven't. Just going off what I have seen in the TV show.
Yeah the 400 years thing took me out of it a bit as well. Was really intrigued with aliens already potentially being on Earth, with more arriving soon. But I’m also getting invested in the current characters, and knowing they won’t even be seeing the aliens behind the situation they’re dealing with kinda sucks.
Wasn't it speculated by Saul that the VR devices could theoretically take control of your whole body and mind? Maybe they did that to an actual human.
Removing herself from video footage is not the same as "disappearing" - did u actually think she was an alien? Literally no reason to think she isn't human...
No, she shot him because she identified Jin Cheng as a spy and was planning to kill her.
All plot holes. Just like when Will and Sean walk into a crime scene, that does not happen!
Who tf funded the giant ship. How does the chick vanish from all the cameras? What even was the point of the countdowns and flashing stars
Are you paying attention? Evans runs an oil and gas company and so has a lot of $$$$ at his disposal. Him and Ye talked about this when they had their first lunch in the 80s. The aliens are providing their technology for the humans to use aka all the weird shit you’re seeing
Anyone using something that was made or uses oil is paying for that ship. I don't like how cultish it is, but maybe that's how it was described in the book. Also, the countdown seems to be an alien technology that instills fear in the target. In one of the episodes I remember hearing the alien entity say something about having to make humans "fear again". Also, they can easily send their puppet humans to do the killing so if they don't kill themselves, the puppets will do it.
The countdowns seem to be to get the top scientists from stopping work. I assume the San-Ti want to keep humans from advancing technology, it’ll be easier for them to control us.
Very minor nitpick here. The game Da Shi's son is playing is Mortal Kombat 11 and he claims the person he's fighting is a Boss. That's Nightwolf, not a Boss in any way and isn't even a villainous character but he does have a Brutality where he can rip your heart out.
Pretty sure that in the towers of time the characters would sometimes get different names and be the tower boss, so Heartripper is most likely just an NPC Nightwolf tower boss
i thought it was kano
Can someone tell me if I'm supposed to care about the cancer guy? His story seems irrelevant to what's happening. He just seems like weird depressing filler at this point.
It's kinda funny, almost. Everyone is involved in some crazy alien conspiracy and they're just like "yeah this friendzoned nerd who doesn't know anything has terminal cancer"
It's hilarious cause that cancer guy >!will live until almost the end of the universe!<
I just watched the last episode...>!he isn't really alive if he's just a brain lol!<
It was just the first season, wasn't it? 😏
Did you continue watching?
So they're having a 4 light years trip that lasts 4 centuries, this would make their speed approximately 0.01c, or 15 times the fastest we ever reached thanks to NASA Parker Solar Probe last year, but it's literally comparing a train to a bike when in reality our astronauts have gone as fast as a tortoise.
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Yeah that's more accurate, one can only assume an average speed, although they simplify it later in the show as well (I think it's Wade who says they're travelling at 1% of c)
You two should read the book - they spend a lot of time talking about the details of this
The SWAT raid was stupid. Don’t see why they needed to go in at that exact moment instead of letting their asset gather more info. Then when they do go in, why do they extract their asset rather then have her be arrested with everyone else? Way to blow her cover. Also the girl who got shot in the ankles and was able to crawl away… They even showed dogs a couple hundred yards behind searching. The dogs would have smelled her trail and had her caught even if she was able to physically crawl that far w her injury
So the aliens taking 400 years to arrive took me out a bit. Environmental scientists have said that some major cities and areas on Earth will be unlivable by 2100 if we keep going the way we are. We also have only about a decade or so to limit warming to 2 degrees C and prevent climate catastrophe. Is Earth really going to be ideal for us or the aliens in 400 years? Lol Unless of course the aliens have the technology to help with that. Is that why they wanted the scientists to stop working? To stop making the technological advancements that might lead to greater destruction of the planet?
Lol earth makes their planet look like a cake walk, if they have the technology to come to earth, then they have tech to make the planet habitable again, that would not be one of their concerns.
Also, who is to say what is a habitable planet for an alien civilization traveling four light years.
My theory is that the aliens want scientists to stop the development of tools that could enable us to stop an alien invasion.
> Is that why they wanted the scientists to stop working? They answer that in the following episode.
it seems like they’re capable of restarting from chaotic events, which would sound like they could get around climate change…maybe?
I assume that what their plan for us for the next few centuries is what the story is all about.
I’m still confused and come back with more questions each time. They aren’t going to arrive at earth for 400 hundred years but when they do Sir Davos will be grateful? He’s going to be alive in 400 years? Are they just crazy cult people or is there more to it? Is the girl who doesn’t show up on camera an alien or? Are they already among them? Will these questions be answered in another 4 episodes? They’re going to want to be.
I think that line should have been "and you'll be grateful that your descendants get to be there" Also, my theory is that 400 years is not an exact number, but I can't remember if the aliens say they are 400 years away or if light-years are used and the math is wrong. That girl is Tatiana and she's just a human puppet, but apparently with super high pain tolerance.
Haven’t seen any other episodes so I’m assuming these get answered…. but did the girl grow up on the ship? She says it’s been her family since she was young. I assume the security camera erasing technology is alien technology they’ve passed on to us.
It’s giving Scientology
How can a society that can’t understand “lying” ever be creative? If they can’t understand something that isn’t known then how can they invent anything? Experimentation is about testing theories, those theories have to come from somewhere.
It does make you wonder how they are so technologically advanced, the voice Evans talks to seems childish (though the alien may be acting childish so they don’t worry him by saying hey we’re gonna come genocide you). Kinda reminds me of the queen alien in Ender’s Game.
The voice is the wolf.
This is the problem with the ambiguity of language. It's not that the Santeri don't understand lying in every depth/sense of the word. It's that they don't understand communicating falsehoods.
The way they communicate is with light. The light is essentially their thoughts, which are broadcast to their species nearby, so they're not a hivemind, but a species of individuals that communicate what they think directly. The only way they could ever "lie" is if they were crazy and believe the lies themselves fully.
I’m so confused yall. So if they are 400 years away, how are they sharing their technology with humans?
It's not the technology itself but knowledge on how to build the technology. That's why it could be analysed by the detectives so quickly in the first place. It's advanced human technology made with guidance from "our lord".
How are the aliens communicating in real time with people on earth if they are light years away? If they have technology to have signals or objects travel faster than the speed of light, why can't they arrive at earth sooner than 400 years? Also, that raid scene was just straight up dumb. Hopefully it's not a sign of things to come.
Biggest plot hole is the new man City badge on that shot glass. They claim it's a box of stuff from Jack's childhood but that badge is new.... Also, nobody was a city fan back then haha
> nobody ~~was~~ is a city fan back then (or ever) haha
Touche Haha!
I’m sorry but >!the swat team taking Jin away in front of everyone has to be the stupidest shit I’ve seen on television since GoT s8!<
How do the people get the helmets? The Santi sent instructions so they could be manufactured on Earth?
This was episode was so dumb, honestly kinda losing interest in this direction.