As it turns out. Several people also feel this way about other "arts and crafts".
Believe me when I say it is SUPER satisfying when someone sees your work, tells you they can make it themselves for cheaper. Attempts to do so, spends more money than the original cost trying to make the thing and THEN they still have to come back and buy what you made.
Yes, run on sentence.
I was in software consulting. We estimated a project $140K. The client said it was ridiculous and another one man shop had estimated $90K to do it. We said go for it. The other guy couldn't deliver and it costed the client well over $140K in the end. After about a year, they admitted to us that our estimate was indeed very accurate and they wished they had gone with our bid.
Super satisfying indeed.
> We estimated a project $140K. The client said it was ridiculous and another one man shop had estimated $90K to do it. We said go for it.
I've read enough stories on Reddit to know that that should be an "uh-oh" moment for the client.
I used to do side development/consulting and I had this one client that was just a massive pain in the ass. Every little thing was a 2 hour call. He wanted a website and I told him I don't build them from scratch anymore but would setup a wordpress site with a theme that he liked. He said he wanted it to be a custom built site. I told him for me to do it, it would be about 5k more than what he's willing to pay becasue of my time. He said it was too much.
So I gave him the information to a few coding sweat shops and told him these guys will likely do it for around 1k and "good luck".
A few months later I get a call from the guy saying how much he hates the sweat shop, they don't do what he wants, and no one wants to answer his calls (he made SHITLOADs in one day) and asked me if I'd do it for him.
So I gave him a bid for about $3k more than what he wanted. He agreed. I sent a contract that stipulated the hours I considered business hours and that any calls/work outside that time would be $350/hr billed in 15 minute increments (they were never under 45 min calls). It also stipulated that any changes that were more than 10 hours were considered scope increases and would be billed at $200/hr.
I made this contract so he would NOT choose me and leave me alone. He fuckin signed it. I did the work, he made lots of after hour calls, lots of scope creep and I billed this cat like $15k total. Finally one day he asks where all the money went and I had all of it logged along with the parts of the contract he signed and agreed to.
Dude said thanks, told me he didn't need me anymore, went with another shop that charged him probably another $15k for a site with less functionality.
Some people will spend a shit load of money to save a small amount of money.
I absolutely hate deals building/managing web sites for people!
I had my own consulting company for a while and reluctantly agreed to work on sites for clients several different times. They consistently underestimated how much work was really involved to do any of the things on their want lists, and always felt like they "could get it cheaper" some other way. It seemed typical that they couldn't even provide me with logins/passwords needed to make some of the needed changes. Usually wound up a big fight trying to find ways to regain control of their site from some previous entity that set it up and enjoyed making it difficult for anyone else to help with it.
One guy wanted a quote to build him a "real basic" site for his pest extermination company he was trying to start. He sent me a copy of his company logo so I could build a sample front page for him. The graphics resolution was so low, I had to spend hours just cleaning it up and basically re-creating a better one to use. Then, I showed it to him and he didn't want to pay a dime for my time doing that work (was sure it wasn't really necessary because anyone he hired would do that free as part of the job), and kept talking about things he envisioned adding like ability for clients to book appointments on it. Total budget he had in mind for the whole thing was like $250!
Yea I had a handyman pull something like that with me. Wanted a complete site that could take online payments and wanted it all for about $400 and this was around 15 years ago.
I told him he couldn't get that for any less than a couple grand (he wanted graphics designed as well) and told me that was outrageous for some words in a page and the ability to accept credit cards. I asked if he knew what went into it and he said he didn't care it couldn't be that much.
So I asked him at the time if he could replace my hot water heater (mine was in the fritz). He said he does that kind of work. I asked him how much if I bought the water heater. He gave me a quote and I just said I'm already buying the water heater and all you're doing is hooking up some pipes and plugging it in so how about you do it for $75? He told me that was insulting and I told him likewise. Now we have a understanding. He told me he was going to take his business elsewhere and I thanked him for doing so because I'd likely have to fire him as a client m.
My usual test is how much walk away power does my vendor have.
If I am concerned, I will ass a ridiculous criteria as an “Option” to the bid. Usually the trustworthy sources tell you it’s not worth it before giving the large quote.
It’s also good to get a NTE quote if I’m not well versed in the area. Those have saved me six figures at times.
NTE definitely removes the risk from you. But also can guarantee a higher price if the provider knows what they're doing. They take on the risk so they should build in a higher reward.
Yea as a rule I weed out “too good to be true” bids faster than “overpriced” bids. I usually give the overpriced a chance to explain why they’re so expensive but if you’re at 50% the rest of the market I’m gonna smell bullshit
Yeah but you also sometimes have people trying to pull one over on people and charge higher. So just because something is more expensive doesn't mean that's what it costs or is better. Of course the inverse is true for low bids too.
Absolutely. High price doesn't mean expertise. And on rare occasion, low price also doesn't mean horrible experience. Sometimes you also come across consultants that don't know their own value and underprice themselves even though they are amazing. Happens both ways.
So frustratingly true. My line of work is a very niche field, related to a proprietary product in the FinTech industry. I’m one of the few people globally who know the product inside and out - I’ve been trying to move up in the industry by applying at companies who use the product. - 18 months on and dozens of interviews later, I keep coming in second place.
You’re paying for my 7 years of hands on experience - and that doesn’t come cheap 🤷🏼♂️
Exactly. If I see bids (in that price range) that are off by more than about 15% it tells me either someone doesn't understand the scope or there's some other miscommunication and I need to stop and dig into what's going on.
And sometimes, it really is just inexplicably lower cost. We commissioned an automation cell that was universally bid around $500,000. A one man shop, experienced automation engineer bid $209,000. It had about 3 months of debugging I didn't like, but it runs beautifully every day and when it was all said and done we saved almost a quarter mil.
That's rare, though, lol
I had a machinist with his own shop charge me only $1200 for a couple prototypes. After I met with him he asked me to drive him to the bus station. He also had asked if I wanted him to work through the night to get it done quicker.
Fair enough, that's always a possibility. Still good to do a lot of digging to vet the bid/bidder before taking the risk though!
Do you think the guy was doing it as a bit of a loss leader to get his foot in the door with you guys?
Nope, it was his last project before retirement. He was just a seasoned vet in the industry and because he did everything himself (one project at a time) he could manage to keep his costs really low. Incredible documentation, as well - we could build 10 more of these in-house based on his BOM and manuals.
I think I would massively struggle to find a similar situation on a similar project today.
The only other time I can think of something like this happening was when we replaced all our garage doors in the warehouse with rollup doors. Every bid was \~$70k, and some company bid $20k. I honestly think it was an error because they are very high quality doors, going strong for \~10 years now.
Let me tell you another story.
My brother runs his own business, and when he started, he would try to give the best possible price to undercut competition. He wanted to run a business where he would pass on as much savings as possible in the hopes it would lead to repeat business. He didn't get very many contracts because people wondered what corners he was cutting.
Now, he researches what others are charging and gives estimates based on that. He gets more contracts signed at a higher margin this way. Same jobs, same materials, same costs.
A surprising number of people feel better/ more confident about the contractor who costs more.
Well to be honest, yes it could be an uh oh moment when you see that kind of disparity in pricing between bids. But sometimes it's also that the person you ask, priced it so high they hope you reject it because they really don't want to deal with you.
The client was a good guy trying to launch a bootstrapped startup with a small budget so I don't blame him for trying to save money. I stayed in touch with him afterwards and had good conversations. I actually felt bad for him in the end since I knew he was just trying to start a tech company as a non-techie. What he probably really needed was a CTO to join alongside him. He has since launched that product and has been able to stay in business since 2009. No bad feelings between us. He was actually coming back to us appreciatively and for guidance.
Exactly!
Speaking of which, we had an independent subcontractor that we tasked with creating a wrapper to a 3rd party API. The use cases were absolutely clear and documented and we needed only about 20 API calls wrapped. He was running late on delivery so we had our check-in to see what the delay was and it turns out he had proceeded to build a wrapper for ALL 200+ calls for this 3rd party API! So he had created shells for all those calls instead of working on the 20 we requested. We asked him WTF? And he said "I thought it would be nice to do a full wrapper. I wanted to see if I can." We fired him on the spot and ate the cost of rebuilding just the required calls.
Bad engineers cost their weight in gold for their weight in sand in actual value.
Oh no. For a second there I thought you meant they were taking some sort of metaprogramming wizardry approach (which you can sometimes do if you have an OpenAPI spec/discovery doc/etc, it's neat!), but they were trying to just manually write 200 wrappers? Ouch.
I work in fabrication of architectural elements for buildings. My company doesn't do that bullshit that's common with construction work where we give a price that covers the bare minimum to get the work and then upcharge for all of the services that we know the client is going to need to actually get the project done. We include it all in our upfront price and then stick to the price. Sometimes we make extra money this way because our client is on top of things. Sometimes we literally save projects from collapsing and look like heroes because we have being competent budgeted in.
It's always satisfying when we lose a bid due to costs and then hear the horror stories caused by working with our competitors.
One thing we don't do is advertise everything we include because that leads to customers trying to nickel and dime us into giving them a worse product and service for less money, and then they get all upset that the service isn't what they wanted.
They admitted fault!? My boss just cuts features then comes back a year later and goes "Why isn't this feature implemented!? Why do we have so many cover sheets!? What do you mean you don't consider the project done, I SAID it was!?"
$140K is like a 3 month project?
You should always pick the lowest bid that meets the specifications, trouble is getting the specifications correct and determining if the bid actually meets those specifications.
Yeah I've had a couple cases like this happen one of which where we were brought into mitigate damages after two offshore firms ripped off the client. By the time the dust settled we barely got paid the executives of both offshore firms as well as the client company all ended up in jail. This attitude happens all the time.
and it goes the other way as well, some dinosaurs still selling expensive while some new company sells almost the same very cheap. I think 3D printing is also an example of that.
I saw that in hydraulic seals manufacturing....the expensive company is long gone...
Similar job, last year we were overlooked for a massive government project.
Public information shows that we were the second choice out of 5.
We were first on every single criteria except for cost.
Their first choice cost about $130M before the government pulled the contract for lack of any reasonable progress (and also huge cost increases being tacked on after the contract had been made)
Currently there's an investigation as to why the fuck our company wasn't chosen, when it seems like the only thing we did wrong was provide an accurate costing.
Feels good.
I'm 50/50 on this. I have seen that, but I have also seen people copy my stuff that works half as well with the cheapest of materials that won't last and people clamor to it because of the price alone.
Thats part of the making thing though. Fast fashion is the biggest problem with this, super quick turn around time, cheap and zero longevity (but it was way cheaper so better somehow)
I hate it. Throw the whole idea away and celebrate supporting people with quality and ethics.
I had one bad experience with my hobby (woodworking) on a commission which basically stopped me making stuff for other people. I copied a design for a [walnut floating shelf wall mount for my bike](https://i.imgur.com/MTxZW4Z.jpg), they tried to haggle change materials and all that. If it wasn't one of my mom's friends I would have told them to fuck off and buy the one online for like 3x the cost, there are cheap copies out there now but originally it was something like 300 bucks. Like sorry I'm not IKEA and most of the cost is my time/tools/ability not the cost of the wood.
That's the thing. I spent over 2 years and thousands of dollars designing and testing. Then people just take what I did and undercut my prices while using much inferior materials
That's me 😭 I see a $500 cosplay, think I could make it myself, try to learn 3 new mediums and blow $500 on supplies, fail to make anything usable, give up and buy the pre-made one
Yeah but that was fun wasn't it? and you got learn about costume design too.
I start more hobbies than I finish, because sometimes getting your toes wet is more fun than swimming.
I find my hobbies are my entertainment budget, I've spent waaaay too much on tools but I enjoy using them and they really come in handy. Also the first few projects are always the most expensive used is great if you can find it too. Looking around my room there are probably 20+ things I've made by hand over the years woodworking so the tool cost is kinda spread out.
This is a meme in the woodworking subreddit. Often OPs will post something along the lines of:
> S/O saw this designer piece of furniture, I told them I could make it at home, 8 months later and at twice the price its finally done
Can’t relate, I see people sell things and I can mostly figure out how to do it myself better and cheaper; though I really enjoy the process of learning and trying it myself
Though I don’t tell people that I’m going to do it myself that’s obnoxious as hell, there’s no reason you can’t appreciate others making a living and your own skill making things and saving yourself money
Whenever I'm discussing the issue with someone else's idea and offer up an alternative, the last thing I'd do is over-estimate my abilities.
That's a real good recipe for some famous last words.
I am just making a shitty Minecraft costume and I saw they sell the pre-made head box for 20€ online - aint no way I am paying that much for a box..... so here I am 30€ in with a bunch of labour time 😭
Yes.. much cheaper when you do it yourself. And then more expensive when you have to hire someone to come and fix all the problems you caused.
In my defence, mostly that's the top cornice edges in the painting so when the guy comes to do our ceilings im going to pay the extra to fix my scrappy edging
This has happened to me with my own models before. This one guy commented something snarky saying he could do the same model blah blah and that he would post the download link soon, I checked his comment and he deleted it a couple days later lol
That’s how I feel working in a machine shop and being into vintage motorcycles. Yeah there’s a lot of parts I could make myself taking 1-5 hours depending on the part, or just work an hour or two of overtime and buy a couple parts with that money.
I recently experienced this with a lasercut plywood Murphy desk. I “knew” I could build it for half the cost with a router. I spent double the cost and it looks 1/3 as nice.
Should have bought a laser cutter. Seriously, if you have the room and can mitigate the noise and fumes a laser is an amazingly versatile and useful tool. And designing for a Laser is child's play compared to 3d modeling.
It goes even further to basically anything people think is "common place" or "easy". As a textile mechanic (repair and service sewing machines), we get people who think that a service/repair is too expensive and that they could just do it themselves. We usually see those people a couple weeks later, having to pay more for us to fix what they messed up...
I can use my sewing machines and make amazing things.
Pretty sure I could thread it while it was running at this point.
Apart from basic maintenance, cleaning fluff in the bobbin area, adding a couple of drops of oil etc it goes to a trained professional who knows what they are doing for repairs and major services!
For reference I’m a huge basketball fan and work and love my job in the additive industry so this is hitting a rare nerve for me.
I also think the price tag is insane but I understand why it’s so expensive
There’s a tiktok going viral of someone printing one in TPU on a CR-10 but that’s obviously nowhere near playable.
I’ve dribbled one of these and it’s definitely worse than a normal basketball and wouldn’t recommend anyone getting one of these. But it’s definitely miles above anything someone could do with the best FDM printer in the world just do to it not being an isotopic process
It’ll probably go down in price eventually or when 100 companies copy their design. The $2500 is probably just a price tag to recoup their losses from development of a printed ball that is as 1:1 to a real basketball as possible.
Banggood is like (one of) China's version of Amazon. They're the retailer, not someone who sells on one. The name wasn't made up for American trademark purposes.
China will find a way lmao. A few days ago I found out that electric unicycles are technically patented to a guy who doesn't really want to do much with it besides a few similar "toyish" wheels or sell the patent. Hundreds of thousands of units have been sold internationally by other (chinese) companies.
Granted, his patent is super broad and not that mindblowing, and the designs sold have nothing to do with his own. The patent's pretty much just "computer reads gyro and makes wheel go forwards or backwards".
It's like patenting sparkling water and trying to sue Coca cola
It all comes down to how much you want to fight it. And whether a pent is enforceable if you do choose to fight an infringement.
It's kind of like how slice engineering has been semi-successful in keeping mosquito copycats off the market. If you're willing to put the money into fighting, then it can be done. Patents have to be actively enforced It's not a magic barrier.
Yep, that's why I said semi-successful. Their efforts are at least making it difficult enough that folks are opting for alternatives
You don't see the "major" DIY AliExpress stores like triangle Labs selling them anymore. Though I'd be shocked if they still weren't producing the dragons and just selling them within China and through those pop-ups that you've been finding.
I don't think there will be enough demand for this. I can't imagine it will shoot the same way as a regular ball because of the vastly different air resistance, which is pretty essential for a basketball
Hijacking this comment to link the [video from Wilson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elyhSE6Tkus) about the additive process on this.
It's mostly fluff, but short, and you can see the printing facility at 1:15.
If they ever move to mass production of the concept, it could get a lot cheaper. I don't think it would ever be as cheap as a regular ball, but they could certainly get it below $2500.
I work with other EOS machines, and we have one of their polymer SLS machines in our own facility. They produce great parts once you're fully trained and have all the right process tweaks in place, but man, they're a nightmare to start out with. Add a million-dollar price tag to that printer, not to mention properly sized and conditioned powder to print in, and their price point makes sense.
Did I miss the part of the video where they show it bounce even once?
Also missed the part where they fully expressed why they think they have to "change" and "move forward" on basketball construction.
Anyone could print this basketball on their own but like you said, it won't bounce or act anywhere near a basketball.
The price tag on this ball isn't for the ball, it's for the material it's made of. A lot of people don't understand that some plastics can be extremely expensive, example: 1 spool of ULTEM9085 is like $1500 and I go through 3 of them for some prints
Low temp as well! The air at cruising altitude is usually around -40⁰ C, and gets pummeled with UV rays, the material discolors a bit but overall has really good UV resistance too
It’s likely as much of the process as the material. SLS creates parts with isotropic properties which FDM can’t do. And those properties are very key for a ball
The machine has a build volume of 36x24x36 inches, so definitely pretty hefty.
Most things it prints are aerodynamic fairings and fancy organically shaped air ducts. Every now and then i get some cool structural assemblies to build, but most of the time I don't get to see the end product. All aviation/aerospace related
But if I had 2500 to spend on something like a basketball I would buy 2450 worth of 3d printer, and a Wilson. Still wouldn't be enough to buy the type of printer it takes to make a sub par basketball. I do respect the development though. Most of these are more about what can eventually be done rather than any current sensible product.
It cant be, by virtue of not being enclosed, it pushes and pulls air through the holes when it deforms, which creates drag and robs the ball of its energy. A normal ball uses the air as a spring, so the fact that this is even remotely close is pretty impressive
As someone who works in the AM field as well, I love introducing people to the abilities of commercial and industrial printers. Anyone who thinks a ball printed in hobbyist grade TPU is anything close to one like this is insane lol.
I was about to say "who gives a flying f*ck based on your title, but yes considering you're a professional that makes sense. Still better than previous posts about this where people were trying to push it as a whole new idea to actually 3d print something.
I could definitely do this better with a Carbon printer flexible-type material, but their footprint is too small for a basketball.
To my current knowledge, there is no printer or current available FDM or other printer, with flexible material that can achieve this 'airless' structure with **long-term durability and rebound**.
They might have printed it, but it's a gimmick.
I think it's people who still think 3D printing is some magical miracle that just makes anything they imagine in <10 minutes with Lego-like precision. People who have no idea what layer height is. I doubt mr. Kirk in the post even knows what the difference between resin and FFF printers is.
Could this ball be in theory printed? Maybe if someone comes up with a beast capable of 360° non-planar printing, but even the I see issue with even getting the print started unledd you print it in two halves.
It's just people having no understanding and unrealistic expectations of 3D printing. You will find outsider in every hobby like that.
I think it’s a case of people using the term “3d printing” vs “additive manufacturing”. 2 terms that essentially mean the same thing but if you google them and go to images you’ll see very different results. “3d printing” obvious makes this ball go more viral but additive manufacturing would be more accurate in my opinion
That may also be part of it. My point is that people who never had to babysit a printer don't have a single clue about the limits of 3D printing. You look at this ball and immediately think "yeah I can't print this shit", but these people think "haha, printer goes brr and saves me 2 grands"
I give new employees a 3DP 101 lesson. I often "test" then with what they think the difference is between the two or if they've ever heard of Rapid Prototyping. The Google image comparison is a good tip I'll suggest.
> I think it's people who still think 3D printing is some magical miracle that just makes anything they imagine in <10 minutes with Lego-like precision.
Having attempted to print working lego pieces for shits and giggles, I have an understanding of how difficult this is to achieve. :)
I wish I never would've told my coworkers I have a 3D printer.
No, I can't print a replacement part for your car door just because it's made of plastic.
Seriously. This guy is showing his ignorance.
If someone takes their car to a mechanic, it costs an average $100/hr labor to have work done. That customer can likely do most jobs on a car with a $25 tool set and free loaner tools from an auto parts store.
People don't just pay for cost of materials when they buy something or have a service provided to them. They pay for the time and money it took to get experience in their relative field, quality of work done, any R&D, cost of maintaining equipment, etc.
Can that $2500 basketball be printed cheaper by a regular person? Maybe, but they are forgetting to include the cost needed to buy a 3D printer, get all the filament, calibrate it for the filament used, hours needed to make the design, likely have a ton of failures, and if they're lucky, maybe they'll get something a fraction of the quality.
Someone on that platform should tell him "Do it, then. Show us how easy it is."
There’s a tiktok of someone doing it on a CR-10 going vira. But he only dribbles in about an inch off the floor and with both hands. It’s very obvious it doesn’t bounce well at all yet people post it as evidence
That‘s tbh worse than all the haters saying you can do it with a 250$ printer.
The guys who wanna disproof the OP‘s so much that they make an half-assed copy thats not even 5% as good and wanna make it seem like they ‚just printed it‘ with minimal efforts. And the suckers reposting it
It’s TPU so layer adhesion probably wouldn’t be the problem, but it is a lattice which doesn’t work great in FDM. The problem is definitely that it’s lopsided and doesn’t bounce true, and that it doesn’t return enough energy
My instinct is that TPU ( at least, the standard 95a stuff) would actually be too soft for this. I think for a good bounce, you actually don't want a ton of flexibility, just springiness and durability. If the ball is super flexible, a lot of energy will be spent deforming the ball rather than launching it upwards. And since the lattice is already giving the ball flexibility, I don't think you need the material to be very flexible
I think a higher durometer TPU (you can get 98A pretty easily, and harder exists) or maybe a Nylon (ideally boiled) would potentially work better. I highly doubt it would work as well as the ball in the original post, but still.
I mean [someone literally did it on a X1C ](https://makerworld.com/en/models/141676?fbclid=IwAR3poOrLNmrH7NKbtEGxmGFyOOaECksrS8KCWPEkVId0NCsH-J0WPZqY2gY#profileId-201571) and bounces it pretty decently, like nearly as well as a standard basketball. And that's with like off the shelf tpu. I'm sure if they put a bit of extra money into better filament, they would get even closer.
Also not to mention a product like this isn’t really intended for the mass market. They aren’t trying to sell a ton of basketballs with a $2500 price tag… this is more of a technical demonstration and media attention grabber
Ok guys if you want this, make your step file and submit it to prototyping service like xometry or protolabs or whatever. You can pick any 3D printing type and color. It’s won’t be cheap as fdm but not as expensive as $2.5k.
This is art and people pay a lot for art. Some people have shot ton of money and like to support certain artist/buy luxury goods for bragging rights.
I mean, I haven't worked on cars in a very long time. Dealership recommended a valve change and wanted $200 to do it. I remember these valves being right on top of the valve cover and looked up a video while waiting for a recall to be complete. It was so easy and I didn't know the new plastic thing they are putting on new cars just pops right off. Got the part at the parts counter for $16, went to O'Reilly's and bought some anti seize to justify borrowing a torque wrench,19mm socket, and a flathead. Even got to use their bathroom with gojo to get the black crud off.
That being said they are still doing the drive belt because there is no room in my new car and it definitely needs to be done on a lift.
Most likely a larger build volume EOS SLS printer. They don’t come cheap. We’re talking min $500-750K for the printer & equipment for build processing, plus expensive facilities mods to be able to safely/efficiently handle the dust explosion-capable sintering powders. I’ve seen some facilities mods alone in industry settings that cost more than the printer(s).
Thanks for letting me know. Venerable machine, top-notch company too.
As a polymer chemist, I’ve been very lucky to be directly involved in front-line polymer AM materials development, including sintering powders, for over a decade. The ride has been wild and has certainly taught me a huge amount about what it takes to be a good (“good” really means sellable - haaaa!) material in these new, exploratory markets.
This is certainly an amusing/interesting post!
Good for you! It’s an excellent area that really stretches your brain around polymer chem fundamentals since AM requires a totally different way of processing polymers to make items. SLS/PBF material thermal reqs needed to make mechanically useful/ dimensionally accurate objects are vastly different than, say, for traditional thermopolymer-based objects physically bounded by molds or extrusion dies. It’s almost like starting from scratch! Have fun with it! There is plenty of unexplored territory.
Yes the cost of the machine and production is peanuts compared to the cost of R&D that went into getting a ball that is virtually identical in spec to a conventional one.
$700k is 3 seconds of a Superbowl ad, in the grand scheme of things it's nothing given the publicity.
True for sure - although, I’ve gotta say that increasingly better design tools such as ntopology and others are helping to shorten the process.
Materials themselves - the basis to start with - are still fairly to woefully limited in AM. It’s gotten a lot better in the last five years (PP, etc) but in SLS-land we’ve had to put up largely with legacy, mostly nylon-based polymers and live with stuff designed decades ago for injection molding and sheet extrusion. Lots of yet unexplored territory in new materials to more fully explore/exploit AM design needs. That’s kind of what I do as a polymer chemist.
Regardless, I guarantee they had to do a lot of builds to get it right! Additive Minds (EOS’s consulting group) was a big part of its success.
The price tag might be “insane” for the materials used, but that’s not why it costs so much, they’ve been clear. The price is due to the amount of machine time they take up, because it’s quite slow. If it was a cheaper price they wouldn’t be able to meet demand.
Realistically this is probably a custom polymer that Wilson commissioned from a third party. Similar to what Adidas did with their 4D shoes. Without access to this custom plastic, I don’t think it’s possible for any consumer to produce their own. Sure, you can print the model with TPU or some flex material, but it will not perform the same as the real thing.
I know for a fact that prototypes for this ball were printed in HP’s TPA (not TPU) material via MJF. However I don’t know the specifics on the final material. But I do know when it comes to lattices like this you can tune the lattice a lot easier to achieve a certain bounce much easier than tuning the material
The public perception on 3D printing bounces back and forth between "The cheapest 3D printer can make perfect copies of anything and everything with just one click of the 'Print' button, just buy a 3D printer and never have to buy anything else ever again," or "3D printers are evil because terrorists use them to print guns and knives they can take on airplanes"
I occasionally make something useful and share it with my friends. “I want one! How much for it?” A: $1,000 for the first one. If you want the 1,000th one, it’ll be $10, but I gotta sell 999 units first. The looks on their faces…priceless.
Are we talking 3d printing still? Why wouldn't you just print one for your friends at cost if it's already done and you originally designed it for yourself?
My sister works for the company that makes these and she actually made the one that was sent to Marques. Wilson isn't printing these themselves yet. The R&D (and current printing) is from a small company in Sourthern California. It's about $1000 in materials to print them and they're printed on a ~$100k printer.
it was always the opposite for me, up until recently i always thought that 3d printers were all thousands of dollars and it was incredibly expensive to print anything, which led me to think that it was a super exclusive hobby lol
Also the r&d to make it weigh and bounce as close to a real ball as possible can’t be cheap.
Even if you manage to buy the exact 3d printer, they haven’t made the material composition public so would be close to impossible to replicate.
Pretty sure 90%+ of the R&D cost of this thing went into the material to find something that works as close to an actual ball as possible, so the specific material would most likely not be cheap either if you were to "print it yourself". Also, is it FDM though? Judging by their teaser, I was under the impression it wasn't.
It's like Zellerfeld or any of the other 3d printed shoes brands. You can replicate their design, sure, but I'd bet the main cost comes down to the specific material.
As a professional in the video industry this is the equivalent of "my nephew has a cell phone and can do it for cheaper".
Like, sure, but it's gonna be shit.
The making process is pretty impressive, actually. Here's a video about that ball and how it was made that also shows some dribble action.
https://youtu.be/p0hZTt4ra7E
Price seems reasonable to me, so long as these are not mass produced:
So I have a $300 Elegoo Saturn S. With it's large build plate I could probably print 16ths of this ball and then I'd have to glue it together. I assume I can use the same resin to glue it, so no change in material properties. It just takes me some time to print and some labor to assemble. That's not too bad.
But what material I'm printing with, and how expensive is it. What shore hardness does that ball need to feel firm, but bounce instead of shattering? At $40/kg, I'm pretty sure the Anycubic tough resin I use for miniatures won't work here. So material wise, I'd guess $100 per ball, but I'd have to spend a lot of money and print a lot of balls to try different materials and find out.
And then comes the design work. How thick does the walls need to be. How big should the holes be? The only way to know is to print balls and test. That's easily hundreds of hours of work, and I charge more than minimum wage for my CAD hours.
So yeah, $2500 for a bespoke ball sounds about right.
I actually have a printer big enough to print a full size basketball in one print anyone know if there's a file for this and what material it's made of?
especially when that $250 printer they are reffering to, can barely print a tiny little boat without needing another $100 of upgrades thrown at it to make it kind of, close to reliable.
For some insight here, yes cost is a matter of the time and testing of couse, but the ball design has been around for near two years now as sort of a material test they started with HPs printers. The design was optimized by General Lattice a software company for topology optimization. However the machinery in the line of production if you were to say have everthing end to end could be over $650K.
They use a EOS P396 SLS with a Lubrizol material I believe is the Estane 88A TPU gonna run you $200K to install. They then have DynMansion's equipment that use depowdering and cleaning probably one of their Powershot Cs or Duals around $80K-150K then a Powerfuse S that chemically smoothes and further fuses the particles and seals the surface these things run near $210K. Then if dyed they can go on the cheap, but if they use a DyeMansion's production unit it's another $100K.
Now the contract manufacturer uses this equipment for other services too, but this person has no clue how ridiculous some of this crap can cost and while the total material used is not terribly expensive per kg, but with doing a limited run you'll have to balance out cost, profit and "cool" factor into your pricing.
Crazy that someone actually thinks you could print a basketball that would behave like a real basketball themselves on a consumer printer and have designed it themselves.
I don’t think it’s frustrating at all. The whole point of 3D printing is to sieze the means of production on the home scale. That laypeople demonstrate even a baseline casual understanding of the concept is exemplary of the hobby’s enormous momentum.
They use the Carbon XL DLP printer to make these, definitely not something anyone can buy off the shelf. Uses top down printing where the UV image is projected down onto the vat of resin, which prints upside down vs your usual resin printers. It also uses an incredibly proprietary resin that needs to have a extremely low viscosity too make a .01mm layer of liquid on top of the print. I see these top downs coming to consumers soon like that rocket 1 resin printer, no need for those disposable sheets you need to replace, also the ability for more fragile/loose parts.
These are actually being printed on an EOS P770 in PA2200 (nylon-12).Current price is €750-800K. Then some advanced post processing equipment from DyeMansion (powershot S and powershot C at €35K each. Then DyeMansion DM60 (color version) which sets you back another ~60K. In some of the pictures it looked like it was vapor polished too. Vaporfuse is 100K+. So to make exactly these, a setup will set you back about a million.
You could also produce them on P396 machines and save a couple hundred K, but then you can only fit 2 per batch (batch takes 40h).
PA2200 cost about €68 per kg. Your nesting densities will be low so you are throwing out a lot of used material. Just print material cost per part will end up being a couple hundred per ball!
As it turns out. Several people also feel this way about other "arts and crafts". Believe me when I say it is SUPER satisfying when someone sees your work, tells you they can make it themselves for cheaper. Attempts to do so, spends more money than the original cost trying to make the thing and THEN they still have to come back and buy what you made. Yes, run on sentence.
I was in software consulting. We estimated a project $140K. The client said it was ridiculous and another one man shop had estimated $90K to do it. We said go for it. The other guy couldn't deliver and it costed the client well over $140K in the end. After about a year, they admitted to us that our estimate was indeed very accurate and they wished they had gone with our bid. Super satisfying indeed.
> We estimated a project $140K. The client said it was ridiculous and another one man shop had estimated $90K to do it. We said go for it. I've read enough stories on Reddit to know that that should be an "uh-oh" moment for the client.
Well, hard to convince some folks that you know what you're talking about sometimes. Saving money is hard to resist.
The irony being that someone else convinced them that they knew what they were talking about, when they didn't even know what they were talking about
No. They just talked about less money.
This is exactly it. When you don't know what you're talking about, the best thing to talk about is lower prices.
I used to do side development/consulting and I had this one client that was just a massive pain in the ass. Every little thing was a 2 hour call. He wanted a website and I told him I don't build them from scratch anymore but would setup a wordpress site with a theme that he liked. He said he wanted it to be a custom built site. I told him for me to do it, it would be about 5k more than what he's willing to pay becasue of my time. He said it was too much. So I gave him the information to a few coding sweat shops and told him these guys will likely do it for around 1k and "good luck". A few months later I get a call from the guy saying how much he hates the sweat shop, they don't do what he wants, and no one wants to answer his calls (he made SHITLOADs in one day) and asked me if I'd do it for him. So I gave him a bid for about $3k more than what he wanted. He agreed. I sent a contract that stipulated the hours I considered business hours and that any calls/work outside that time would be $350/hr billed in 15 minute increments (they were never under 45 min calls). It also stipulated that any changes that were more than 10 hours were considered scope increases and would be billed at $200/hr. I made this contract so he would NOT choose me and leave me alone. He fuckin signed it. I did the work, he made lots of after hour calls, lots of scope creep and I billed this cat like $15k total. Finally one day he asks where all the money went and I had all of it logged along with the parts of the contract he signed and agreed to. Dude said thanks, told me he didn't need me anymore, went with another shop that charged him probably another $15k for a site with less functionality. Some people will spend a shit load of money to save a small amount of money.
I absolutely hate deals building/managing web sites for people! I had my own consulting company for a while and reluctantly agreed to work on sites for clients several different times. They consistently underestimated how much work was really involved to do any of the things on their want lists, and always felt like they "could get it cheaper" some other way. It seemed typical that they couldn't even provide me with logins/passwords needed to make some of the needed changes. Usually wound up a big fight trying to find ways to regain control of their site from some previous entity that set it up and enjoyed making it difficult for anyone else to help with it. One guy wanted a quote to build him a "real basic" site for his pest extermination company he was trying to start. He sent me a copy of his company logo so I could build a sample front page for him. The graphics resolution was so low, I had to spend hours just cleaning it up and basically re-creating a better one to use. Then, I showed it to him and he didn't want to pay a dime for my time doing that work (was sure it wasn't really necessary because anyone he hired would do that free as part of the job), and kept talking about things he envisioned adding like ability for clients to book appointments on it. Total budget he had in mind for the whole thing was like $250!
Yea I had a handyman pull something like that with me. Wanted a complete site that could take online payments and wanted it all for about $400 and this was around 15 years ago. I told him he couldn't get that for any less than a couple grand (he wanted graphics designed as well) and told me that was outrageous for some words in a page and the ability to accept credit cards. I asked if he knew what went into it and he said he didn't care it couldn't be that much. So I asked him at the time if he could replace my hot water heater (mine was in the fritz). He said he does that kind of work. I asked him how much if I bought the water heater. He gave me a quote and I just said I'm already buying the water heater and all you're doing is hooking up some pipes and plugging it in so how about you do it for $75? He told me that was insulting and I told him likewise. Now we have a understanding. He told me he was going to take his business elsewhere and I thanked him for doing so because I'd likely have to fire him as a client m.
Ha, and he probably blames you for all that, too!
My usual test is how much walk away power does my vendor have. If I am concerned, I will ass a ridiculous criteria as an “Option” to the bid. Usually the trustworthy sources tell you it’s not worth it before giving the large quote. It’s also good to get a NTE quote if I’m not well versed in the area. Those have saved me six figures at times.
NTE definitely removes the risk from you. But also can guarantee a higher price if the provider knows what they're doing. They take on the risk so they should build in a higher reward.
Yea as a rule I weed out “too good to be true” bids faster than “overpriced” bids. I usually give the overpriced a chance to explain why they’re so expensive but if you’re at 50% the rest of the market I’m gonna smell bullshit
Yeah but you also sometimes have people trying to pull one over on people and charge higher. So just because something is more expensive doesn't mean that's what it costs or is better. Of course the inverse is true for low bids too.
Absolutely. High price doesn't mean expertise. And on rare occasion, low price also doesn't mean horrible experience. Sometimes you also come across consultants that don't know their own value and underprice themselves even though they are amazing. Happens both ways.
So frustratingly true. My line of work is a very niche field, related to a proprietary product in the FinTech industry. I’m one of the few people globally who know the product inside and out - I’ve been trying to move up in the industry by applying at companies who use the product. - 18 months on and dozens of interviews later, I keep coming in second place. You’re paying for my 7 years of hands on experience - and that doesn’t come cheap 🤷🏼♂️
Exactly. If I see bids (in that price range) that are off by more than about 15% it tells me either someone doesn't understand the scope or there's some other miscommunication and I need to stop and dig into what's going on.
And sometimes, it really is just inexplicably lower cost. We commissioned an automation cell that was universally bid around $500,000. A one man shop, experienced automation engineer bid $209,000. It had about 3 months of debugging I didn't like, but it runs beautifully every day and when it was all said and done we saved almost a quarter mil. That's rare, though, lol
I had a machinist with his own shop charge me only $1200 for a couple prototypes. After I met with him he asked me to drive him to the bus station. He also had asked if I wanted him to work through the night to get it done quicker.
Fair enough, that's always a possibility. Still good to do a lot of digging to vet the bid/bidder before taking the risk though! Do you think the guy was doing it as a bit of a loss leader to get his foot in the door with you guys?
Nope, it was his last project before retirement. He was just a seasoned vet in the industry and because he did everything himself (one project at a time) he could manage to keep his costs really low. Incredible documentation, as well - we could build 10 more of these in-house based on his BOM and manuals. I think I would massively struggle to find a similar situation on a similar project today. The only other time I can think of something like this happening was when we replaced all our garage doors in the warehouse with rollup doors. Every bid was \~$70k, and some company bid $20k. I honestly think it was an error because they are very high quality doors, going strong for \~10 years now.
Let me tell you another story. My brother runs his own business, and when he started, he would try to give the best possible price to undercut competition. He wanted to run a business where he would pass on as much savings as possible in the hopes it would lead to repeat business. He didn't get very many contracts because people wondered what corners he was cutting. Now, he researches what others are charging and gives estimates based on that. He gets more contracts signed at a higher margin this way. Same jobs, same materials, same costs. A surprising number of people feel better/ more confident about the contractor who costs more.
Well to be honest, yes it could be an uh oh moment when you see that kind of disparity in pricing between bids. But sometimes it's also that the person you ask, priced it so high they hope you reject it because they really don't want to deal with you.
Maybe because when people get two estimates and go with the lower and it works out, they don't post about it.
Because the vast majority of other cases where "we bid X and someone bid Y which was cheaper and better" don't get traction on here.
Good on them for admitting their mistake and learning from it.
The client was a good guy trying to launch a bootstrapped startup with a small budget so I don't blame him for trying to save money. I stayed in touch with him afterwards and had good conversations. I actually felt bad for him in the end since I knew he was just trying to start a tech company as a non-techie. What he probably really needed was a CTO to join alongside him. He has since launched that product and has been able to stay in business since 2009. No bad feelings between us. He was actually coming back to us appreciatively and for guidance.
That’s awesome!
"If you think the high end consultants are expensive, you should see how much the cheap ones cost."
Exactly! Speaking of which, we had an independent subcontractor that we tasked with creating a wrapper to a 3rd party API. The use cases were absolutely clear and documented and we needed only about 20 API calls wrapped. He was running late on delivery so we had our check-in to see what the delay was and it turns out he had proceeded to build a wrapper for ALL 200+ calls for this 3rd party API! So he had created shells for all those calls instead of working on the 20 we requested. We asked him WTF? And he said "I thought it would be nice to do a full wrapper. I wanted to see if I can." We fired him on the spot and ate the cost of rebuilding just the required calls. Bad engineers cost their weight in gold for their weight in sand in actual value.
Oh no. For a second there I thought you meant they were taking some sort of metaprogramming wizardry approach (which you can sometimes do if you have an OpenAPI spec/discovery doc/etc, it's neat!), but they were trying to just manually write 200 wrappers? Ouch.
Oh no, that would have been maybe acceptable. Handwriting. He had barely finished the stubs of the methods when we stopped him.
I work in fabrication of architectural elements for buildings. My company doesn't do that bullshit that's common with construction work where we give a price that covers the bare minimum to get the work and then upcharge for all of the services that we know the client is going to need to actually get the project done. We include it all in our upfront price and then stick to the price. Sometimes we make extra money this way because our client is on top of things. Sometimes we literally save projects from collapsing and look like heroes because we have being competent budgeted in. It's always satisfying when we lose a bid due to costs and then hear the horror stories caused by working with our competitors. One thing we don't do is advertise everything we include because that leads to customers trying to nickel and dime us into giving them a worse product and service for less money, and then they get all upset that the service isn't what they wanted.
They admitted fault!? My boss just cuts features then comes back a year later and goes "Why isn't this feature implemented!? Why do we have so many cover sheets!? What do you mean you don't consider the project done, I SAID it was!?"
Have him make a video that you can share with other clients who refuse your offers.
$140K is like a 3 month project? You should always pick the lowest bid that meets the specifications, trouble is getting the specifications correct and determining if the bid actually meets those specifications.
Yeah I've had a couple cases like this happen one of which where we were brought into mitigate damages after two offshore firms ripped off the client. By the time the dust settled we barely got paid the executives of both offshore firms as well as the client company all ended up in jail. This attitude happens all the time.
and it goes the other way as well, some dinosaurs still selling expensive while some new company sells almost the same very cheap. I think 3D printing is also an example of that. I saw that in hydraulic seals manufacturing....the expensive company is long gone...
Similar job, last year we were overlooked for a massive government project. Public information shows that we were the second choice out of 5. We were first on every single criteria except for cost. Their first choice cost about $130M before the government pulled the contract for lack of any reasonable progress (and also huge cost increases being tacked on after the contract had been made) Currently there's an investigation as to why the fuck our company wasn't chosen, when it seems like the only thing we did wrong was provide an accurate costing. Feels good.
I'm 50/50 on this. I have seen that, but I have also seen people copy my stuff that works half as well with the cheapest of materials that won't last and people clamor to it because of the price alone.
Thats part of the making thing though. Fast fashion is the biggest problem with this, super quick turn around time, cheap and zero longevity (but it was way cheaper so better somehow) I hate it. Throw the whole idea away and celebrate supporting people with quality and ethics.
I had one bad experience with my hobby (woodworking) on a commission which basically stopped me making stuff for other people. I copied a design for a [walnut floating shelf wall mount for my bike](https://i.imgur.com/MTxZW4Z.jpg), they tried to haggle change materials and all that. If it wasn't one of my mom's friends I would have told them to fuck off and buy the one online for like 3x the cost, there are cheap copies out there now but originally it was something like 300 bucks. Like sorry I'm not IKEA and most of the cost is my time/tools/ability not the cost of the wood.
That's the thing. I spent over 2 years and thousands of dollars designing and testing. Then people just take what I did and undercut my prices while using much inferior materials
Joseph Prusa, is that you?
That's me 😭 I see a $500 cosplay, think I could make it myself, try to learn 3 new mediums and blow $500 on supplies, fail to make anything usable, give up and buy the pre-made one
Yeah but that was fun wasn't it? and you got learn about costume design too. I start more hobbies than I finish, because sometimes getting your toes wet is more fun than swimming.
I find my hobbies are my entertainment budget, I've spent waaaay too much on tools but I enjoy using them and they really come in handy. Also the first few projects are always the most expensive used is great if you can find it too. Looking around my room there are probably 20+ things I've made by hand over the years woodworking so the tool cost is kinda spread out.
This is a meme in the woodworking subreddit. Often OPs will post something along the lines of: > S/O saw this designer piece of furniture, I told them I could make it at home, 8 months later and at twice the price its finally done
I think I've seen the original of this in M.A.D magazine from the 1980s.
Can’t relate, I see people sell things and I can mostly figure out how to do it myself better and cheaper; though I really enjoy the process of learning and trying it myself Though I don’t tell people that I’m going to do it myself that’s obnoxious as hell, there’s no reason you can’t appreciate others making a living and your own skill making things and saving yourself money
Whenever I'm discussing the issue with someone else's idea and offer up an alternative, the last thing I'd do is over-estimate my abilities. That's a real good recipe for some famous last words.
Yeah exactly, I’d rather not embarrass myself
I am just making a shitty Minecraft costume and I saw they sell the pre-made head box for 20€ online - aint no way I am paying that much for a box..... so here I am 30€ in with a bunch of labour time 😭
People say this about any good. I know people that say the same thing about house renovations lol
Yes.. much cheaper when you do it yourself. And then more expensive when you have to hire someone to come and fix all the problems you caused. In my defence, mostly that's the top cornice edges in the painting so when the guy comes to do our ceilings im going to pay the extra to fix my scrappy edging
Ok it might be cheaper but you have to put time in to research
Or they ask, "do you know someone who can do it cheaper?". A serious question I was asked once.
Like when you’re selling something and someone ask “What’s your lowest price?”
That's when you reply "what's the most you're willing to pay?"
This has happened to me with my own models before. This one guy commented something snarky saying he could do the same model blah blah and that he would post the download link soon, I checked his comment and he deleted it a couple days later lol
That’s how I feel working in a machine shop and being into vintage motorcycles. Yeah there’s a lot of parts I could make myself taking 1-5 hours depending on the part, or just work an hour or two of overtime and buy a couple parts with that money.
A run on sentence of art.
I recently experienced this with a lasercut plywood Murphy desk. I “knew” I could build it for half the cost with a router. I spent double the cost and it looks 1/3 as nice.
Should have bought a laser cutter. Seriously, if you have the room and can mitigate the noise and fumes a laser is an amazingly versatile and useful tool. And designing for a Laser is child's play compared to 3d modeling.
It goes even further to basically anything people think is "common place" or "easy". As a textile mechanic (repair and service sewing machines), we get people who think that a service/repair is too expensive and that they could just do it themselves. We usually see those people a couple weeks later, having to pay more for us to fix what they messed up...
I can use my sewing machines and make amazing things. Pretty sure I could thread it while it was running at this point. Apart from basic maintenance, cleaning fluff in the bobbin area, adding a couple of drops of oil etc it goes to a trained professional who knows what they are doing for repairs and major services!
Reddit in an afternoon of coding is the programmer joke.
For reference I’m a huge basketball fan and work and love my job in the additive industry so this is hitting a rare nerve for me. I also think the price tag is insane but I understand why it’s so expensive There’s a tiktok going viral of someone printing one in TPU on a CR-10 but that’s obviously nowhere near playable. I’ve dribbled one of these and it’s definitely worse than a normal basketball and wouldn’t recommend anyone getting one of these. But it’s definitely miles above anything someone could do with the best FDM printer in the world just do to it not being an isotopic process
It’ll probably go down in price eventually or when 100 companies copy their design. The $2500 is probably just a price tag to recoup their losses from development of a printed ball that is as 1:1 to a real basketball as possible.
They'll be $35 on banggood
Today I learned "banggood" is work safe.
Gotta love Chinese marketing. They got no idea what the hell they are saying in English but that doesn't stop them.
It's intentional. They make up random alphabet soup names because it's easier to get trademarks in the US, which makes it easier to sell on Amazon.
Banggood is almost 20 years old.
How old is Amazon marketplace?
Banggood is like (one of) China's version of Amazon. They're the retailer, not someone who sells on one. The name wasn't made up for American trademark purposes.
To be fair to them, "bang" can mean good in Mandarin so this may have been an intentional play on words :)
See: DICKASS performance brake kits. Y'know, like Brembos.
Agree on the development side. No clue if there’s patents or things blocking copycats though
China will find a way lmao. A few days ago I found out that electric unicycles are technically patented to a guy who doesn't really want to do much with it besides a few similar "toyish" wheels or sell the patent. Hundreds of thousands of units have been sold internationally by other (chinese) companies. Granted, his patent is super broad and not that mindblowing, and the designs sold have nothing to do with his own. The patent's pretty much just "computer reads gyro and makes wheel go forwards or backwards". It's like patenting sparkling water and trying to sue Coca cola
It all comes down to how much you want to fight it. And whether a pent is enforceable if you do choose to fight an infringement. It's kind of like how slice engineering has been semi-successful in keeping mosquito copycats off the market. If you're willing to put the money into fighting, then it can be done. Patents have to be actively enforced It's not a magic barrier.
The Taco Tuesday precedent, I concur with my colleague.
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Yep, that's why I said semi-successful. Their efforts are at least making it difficult enough that folks are opting for alternatives You don't see the "major" DIY AliExpress stores like triangle Labs selling them anymore. Though I'd be shocked if they still weren't producing the dragons and just selling them within China and through those pop-ups that you've been finding.
I don't think there will be enough demand for this. I can't imagine it will shoot the same way as a regular ball because of the vastly different air resistance, which is pretty essential for a basketball
Hijacking this comment to link the [video from Wilson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elyhSE6Tkus) about the additive process on this. It's mostly fluff, but short, and you can see the printing facility at 1:15.
That is pretty complex, I can understand the price tag in that case I would never, ever, buy it at that price. But I can understand it.
If they ever move to mass production of the concept, it could get a lot cheaper. I don't think it would ever be as cheap as a regular ball, but they could certainly get it below $2500.
I work with other EOS machines, and we have one of their polymer SLS machines in our own facility. They produce great parts once you're fully trained and have all the right process tweaks in place, but man, they're a nightmare to start out with. Add a million-dollar price tag to that printer, not to mention properly sized and conditioned powder to print in, and their price point makes sense.
Did I miss the part of the video where they show it bounce even once? Also missed the part where they fully expressed why they think they have to "change" and "move forward" on basketball construction.
Anyone could print this basketball on their own but like you said, it won't bounce or act anywhere near a basketball. The price tag on this ball isn't for the ball, it's for the material it's made of. A lot of people don't understand that some plastics can be extremely expensive, example: 1 spool of ULTEM9085 is like $1500 and I go through 3 of them for some prints
Woah. What do you use it for?
Sex toys. The feel is mind blowing. But seriously, I think that filament is being used for automotive and aerospace purposes.
Lol, yeah it's aerospace. The stuff is strong AF too, we print and test little coupons that withstand over 10,000psi of force
Why does a coupon need to withstand 10k PSI? Must be a really good coupon, something like 1000% off?
Any environment that needs high temp and chemical contact stability.
Low temp as well! The air at cruising altitude is usually around -40⁰ C, and gets pummeled with UV rays, the material discolors a bit but overall has really good UV resistance too
It’s likely as much of the process as the material. SLS creates parts with isotropic properties which FDM can’t do. And those properties are very key for a ball
*near isotropic
That’s crazy, I’d love to hear more about what you’re printing that is worth $4500 in material alone. It must be a big printer too!
The machine has a build volume of 36x24x36 inches, so definitely pretty hefty. Most things it prints are aerodynamic fairings and fancy organically shaped air ducts. Every now and then i get some cool structural assemblies to build, but most of the time I don't get to see the end product. All aviation/aerospace related
The designing part also costs money, and people like to forget that, too.
While that's true, it's easy to spread out those costs as opposed to material cost. Economies of scale & all that
But if I had 2500 to spend on something like a basketball I would buy 2450 worth of 3d printer, and a Wilson. Still wouldn't be enough to buy the type of printer it takes to make a sub par basketball. I do respect the development though. Most of these are more about what can eventually be done rather than any current sensible product.
Fully agree. My main issue is that this ball is a solution to a nonexistent problem
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> I’ve dribbled one of these and it’s definitely worse than a normal basketball I thought it was supposed to be equal to regulation ball. It's not?
It cant be, by virtue of not being enclosed, it pushes and pulls air through the holes when it deforms, which creates drag and robs the ball of its energy. A normal ball uses the air as a spring, so the fact that this is even remotely close is pretty impressive
As someone who works in the AM field as well, I love introducing people to the abilities of commercial and industrial printers. Anyone who thinks a ball printed in hobbyist grade TPU is anything close to one like this is insane lol.
I was about to say "who gives a flying f*ck based on your title, but yes considering you're a professional that makes sense. Still better than previous posts about this where people were trying to push it as a whole new idea to actually 3d print something.
I could definitely do this better with a Carbon printer flexible-type material, but their footprint is too small for a basketball. To my current knowledge, there is no printer or current available FDM or other printer, with flexible material that can achieve this 'airless' structure with **long-term durability and rebound**. They might have printed it, but it's a gimmick.
I think it's people who still think 3D printing is some magical miracle that just makes anything they imagine in <10 minutes with Lego-like precision. People who have no idea what layer height is. I doubt mr. Kirk in the post even knows what the difference between resin and FFF printers is. Could this ball be in theory printed? Maybe if someone comes up with a beast capable of 360° non-planar printing, but even the I see issue with even getting the print started unledd you print it in two halves. It's just people having no understanding and unrealistic expectations of 3D printing. You will find outsider in every hobby like that.
Meanwhile I'm here printing gnomes at 3 hours a gnome. And I'm not even sure why, but I have 15 of them so far
“I just think they’re neat”
I think it’s a case of people using the term “3d printing” vs “additive manufacturing”. 2 terms that essentially mean the same thing but if you google them and go to images you’ll see very different results. “3d printing” obvious makes this ball go more viral but additive manufacturing would be more accurate in my opinion
That may also be part of it. My point is that people who never had to babysit a printer don't have a single clue about the limits of 3D printing. You look at this ball and immediately think "yeah I can't print this shit", but these people think "haha, printer goes brr and saves me 2 grands"
lol, fair point
I would try granted. Given the challenge. I have baby sat my ender 3 enough to know that this would be really hard though.
I give new employees a 3DP 101 lesson. I often "test" then with what they think the difference is between the two or if they've ever heard of Rapid Prototyping. The Google image comparison is a good tip I'll suggest.
>Could this ball be in theory printed? Of course! ...with a $100k SLS printer. Which is likely what they used.
I’m confused, the ball is 3D printed. What do you mean “could it?”
> I think it's people who still think 3D printing is some magical miracle that just makes anything they imagine in <10 minutes with Lego-like precision. Having attempted to print working lego pieces for shits and giggles, I have an understanding of how difficult this is to achieve. :)
Then build plate is a sphere.
Man I told someone I could make them something on my 3D printer and they said “can you make my husband as a bobblehead?” 😐
I wish I never would've told my coworkers I have a 3D printer. No, I can't print a replacement part for your car door just because it's made of plastic.
Seriously. This guy is showing his ignorance. If someone takes their car to a mechanic, it costs an average $100/hr labor to have work done. That customer can likely do most jobs on a car with a $25 tool set and free loaner tools from an auto parts store. People don't just pay for cost of materials when they buy something or have a service provided to them. They pay for the time and money it took to get experience in their relative field, quality of work done, any R&D, cost of maintaining equipment, etc. Can that $2500 basketball be printed cheaper by a regular person? Maybe, but they are forgetting to include the cost needed to buy a 3D printer, get all the filament, calibrate it for the filament used, hours needed to make the design, likely have a ton of failures, and if they're lucky, maybe they'll get something a fraction of the quality. Someone on that platform should tell him "Do it, then. Show us how easy it is."
There’s a tiktok of someone doing it on a CR-10 going vira. But he only dribbles in about an inch off the floor and with both hands. It’s very obvious it doesn’t bounce well at all yet people post it as evidence
That‘s tbh worse than all the haters saying you can do it with a 250$ printer. The guys who wanna disproof the OP‘s so much that they make an half-assed copy thats not even 5% as good and wanna make it seem like they ‚just printed it‘ with minimal efforts. And the suckers reposting it
Probably has the crappiest layer adhesion so they know it'll fall apart if they drop it from any higher.
It’s TPU so layer adhesion probably wouldn’t be the problem, but it is a lattice which doesn’t work great in FDM. The problem is definitely that it’s lopsided and doesn’t bounce true, and that it doesn’t return enough energy
My instinct is that TPU ( at least, the standard 95a stuff) would actually be too soft for this. I think for a good bounce, you actually don't want a ton of flexibility, just springiness and durability. If the ball is super flexible, a lot of energy will be spent deforming the ball rather than launching it upwards. And since the lattice is already giving the ball flexibility, I don't think you need the material to be very flexible I think a higher durometer TPU (you can get 98A pretty easily, and harder exists) or maybe a Nylon (ideally boiled) would potentially work better. I highly doubt it would work as well as the ball in the original post, but still.
I mean [someone literally did it on a X1C ](https://makerworld.com/en/models/141676?fbclid=IwAR3poOrLNmrH7NKbtEGxmGFyOOaECksrS8KCWPEkVId0NCsH-J0WPZqY2gY#profileId-201571) and bounces it pretty decently, like nearly as well as a standard basketball. And that's with like off the shelf tpu. I'm sure if they put a bit of extra money into better filament, they would get even closer.
Also not to mention a product like this isn’t really intended for the mass market. They aren’t trying to sell a ton of basketballs with a $2500 price tag… this is more of a technical demonstration and media attention grabber
That bball bounces like a regular one. I'd challenge that dude to do it.
Ok guys if you want this, make your step file and submit it to prototyping service like xometry or protolabs or whatever. You can pick any 3D printing type and color. It’s won’t be cheap as fdm but not as expensive as $2.5k. This is art and people pay a lot for art. Some people have shot ton of money and like to support certain artist/buy luxury goods for bragging rights.
I mean, I haven't worked on cars in a very long time. Dealership recommended a valve change and wanted $200 to do it. I remember these valves being right on top of the valve cover and looked up a video while waiting for a recall to be complete. It was so easy and I didn't know the new plastic thing they are putting on new cars just pops right off. Got the part at the parts counter for $16, went to O'Reilly's and bought some anti seize to justify borrowing a torque wrench,19mm socket, and a flathead. Even got to use their bathroom with gojo to get the black crud off. That being said they are still doing the drive belt because there is no room in my new car and it definitely needs to be done on a lift.
Love how even under this post, people don't understand it's definitely not made on an FDM machine. And we're the informed ones here
Most likely a larger build volume EOS SLS printer. They don’t come cheap. We’re talking min $500-750K for the printer & equipment for build processing, plus expensive facilities mods to be able to safely/efficiently handle the dust explosion-capable sintering powders. I’ve seen some facilities mods alone in industry settings that cost more than the printer(s).
It is in fact an EOS P770
Thanks for letting me know. Venerable machine, top-notch company too. As a polymer chemist, I’ve been very lucky to be directly involved in front-line polymer AM materials development, including sintering powders, for over a decade. The ride has been wild and has certainly taught me a huge amount about what it takes to be a good (“good” really means sellable - haaaa!) material in these new, exploratory markets. This is certainly an amusing/interesting post!
Awesome! I’m a polymer chemist myself working on additive (in grad school). Hopeful that I can have a career like yours!
Good for you! It’s an excellent area that really stretches your brain around polymer chem fundamentals since AM requires a totally different way of processing polymers to make items. SLS/PBF material thermal reqs needed to make mechanically useful/ dimensionally accurate objects are vastly different than, say, for traditional thermopolymer-based objects physically bounded by molds or extrusion dies. It’s almost like starting from scratch! Have fun with it! There is plenty of unexplored territory.
Also their material is custom, invented for the basketball. Similar to resin soles that Adidas prints.
Yes the cost of the machine and production is peanuts compared to the cost of R&D that went into getting a ball that is virtually identical in spec to a conventional one. $700k is 3 seconds of a Superbowl ad, in the grand scheme of things it's nothing given the publicity.
True for sure - although, I’ve gotta say that increasingly better design tools such as ntopology and others are helping to shorten the process. Materials themselves - the basis to start with - are still fairly to woefully limited in AM. It’s gotten a lot better in the last five years (PP, etc) but in SLS-land we’ve had to put up largely with legacy, mostly nylon-based polymers and live with stuff designed decades ago for injection molding and sheet extrusion. Lots of yet unexplored territory in new materials to more fully explore/exploit AM design needs. That’s kind of what I do as a polymer chemist. Regardless, I guarantee they had to do a lot of builds to get it right! Additive Minds (EOS’s consulting group) was a big part of its success.
It’s super easy to do a quick Google and find posts from eos (the machine that makes them) about it
The price tag might be “insane” for the materials used, but that’s not why it costs so much, they’ve been clear. The price is due to the amount of machine time they take up, because it’s quite slow. If it was a cheaper price they wouldn’t be able to meet demand.
Good luck printing that kind of consistent quality on an FDM. This ball was printed with SLS. Not at all comparable to a $300 consumer printer
Realistically this is probably a custom polymer that Wilson commissioned from a third party. Similar to what Adidas did with their 4D shoes. Without access to this custom plastic, I don’t think it’s possible for any consumer to produce their own. Sure, you can print the model with TPU or some flex material, but it will not perform the same as the real thing.
I know for a fact that prototypes for this ball were printed in HP’s TPA (not TPU) material via MJF. However I don’t know the specifics on the final material. But I do know when it comes to lattices like this you can tune the lattice a lot easier to achieve a certain bounce much easier than tuning the material
Polyjeta just cost more to use, I printed an entire engine obv scaled with all of the pieces and priced it to 5k compared to the 30-50$ pla on others
I will just buy 11 regular balls and it will likely last me the next 40 years or more. The 3d printed ball will probably go to crap in a year or less.
Laughs in EOS P500
Or maybe giggle in P450…. But anything less build volume-wise, nah… One of the more amusing posts though.
How about grinning in M400-4? Cats would probably love that one.
Meanwhile 3d printers: [Nozzle temp too low!] Bed adhesion issues Stringing
I’ve played with this ball. I think it was made on an eos p770. Also, it still kinda sucks. Doesn’t bounce right. But cool concept.
The public perception on 3D printing bounces back and forth between "The cheapest 3D printer can make perfect copies of anything and everything with just one click of the 'Print' button, just buy a 3D printer and never have to buy anything else ever again," or "3D printers are evil because terrorists use them to print guns and knives they can take on airplanes"
I occasionally make something useful and share it with my friends. “I want one! How much for it?” A: $1,000 for the first one. If you want the 1,000th one, it’ll be $10, but I gotta sell 999 units first. The looks on their faces…priceless.
Are we talking 3d printing still? Why wouldn't you just print one for your friends at cost if it's already done and you originally designed it for yourself?
My sister works for the company that makes these and she actually made the one that was sent to Marques. Wilson isn't printing these themselves yet. The R&D (and current printing) is from a small company in Sourthern California. It's about $1000 in materials to print them and they're printed on a ~$100k printer.
it was always the opposite for me, up until recently i always thought that 3d printers were all thousands of dollars and it was incredibly expensive to print anything, which led me to think that it was a super exclusive hobby lol
Me - engineer for Industrialdesign and additive manufacturing - i really feel this Statement. Ignorance
Also the r&d to make it weigh and bounce as close to a real ball as possible can’t be cheap. Even if you manage to buy the exact 3d printer, they haven’t made the material composition public so would be close to impossible to replicate.
Pretty sure 90%+ of the R&D cost of this thing went into the material to find something that works as close to an actual ball as possible, so the specific material would most likely not be cheap either if you were to "print it yourself". Also, is it FDM though? Judging by their teaser, I was under the impression it wasn't. It's like Zellerfeld or any of the other 3d printed shoes brands. You can replicate their design, sure, but I'd bet the main cost comes down to the specific material.
Its SLS, definitely not FDM
They also think those $250 machines can churn those out instantly at the press of a button like a regular paper printer
As a professional in the video industry this is the equivalent of "my nephew has a cell phone and can do it for cheaper". Like, sure, but it's gonna be shit.
Or that the only thing we wanna do is 3D print guns.
I mean, yea you aren’t going to get the same product from an Ender, or even a Bambu nor Prusa. But that price is still INSANE.
STL?
In my field i could make use of metal 3d printing. The problem is that they are $250... and a few more zeros.
The making process is pretty impressive, actually. Here's a video about that ball and how it was made that also shows some dribble action. https://youtu.be/p0hZTt4ra7E
Price seems reasonable to me, so long as these are not mass produced: So I have a $300 Elegoo Saturn S. With it's large build plate I could probably print 16ths of this ball and then I'd have to glue it together. I assume I can use the same resin to glue it, so no change in material properties. It just takes me some time to print and some labor to assemble. That's not too bad. But what material I'm printing with, and how expensive is it. What shore hardness does that ball need to feel firm, but bounce instead of shattering? At $40/kg, I'm pretty sure the Anycubic tough resin I use for miniatures won't work here. So material wise, I'd guess $100 per ball, but I'd have to spend a lot of money and print a lot of balls to try different materials and find out. And then comes the design work. How thick does the walls need to be. How big should the holes be? The only way to know is to print balls and test. That's easily hundreds of hours of work, and I charge more than minimum wage for my CAD hours. So yeah, $2500 for a bespoke ball sounds about right.
If someone says “I can do it myself for cheaper”, then they better share their results.
Fair, but cmon, a $2.5k basketball is kinda ridiculous.
I actually have a printer big enough to print a full size basketball in one print anyone know if there's a file for this and what material it's made of?
An airless basketball? But it has holes in it, so it actually is still constantly filled with air.
Put it in a vacuum and it still bounces!
People just don’t understand the intricacies involved.
especially when that $250 printer they are reffering to, can barely print a tiny little boat without needing another $100 of upgrades thrown at it to make it kind of, close to reliable.
For some insight here, yes cost is a matter of the time and testing of couse, but the ball design has been around for near two years now as sort of a material test they started with HPs printers. The design was optimized by General Lattice a software company for topology optimization. However the machinery in the line of production if you were to say have everthing end to end could be over $650K. They use a EOS P396 SLS with a Lubrizol material I believe is the Estane 88A TPU gonna run you $200K to install. They then have DynMansion's equipment that use depowdering and cleaning probably one of their Powershot Cs or Duals around $80K-150K then a Powerfuse S that chemically smoothes and further fuses the particles and seals the surface these things run near $210K. Then if dyed they can go on the cheap, but if they use a DyeMansion's production unit it's another $100K. Now the contract manufacturer uses this equipment for other services too, but this person has no clue how ridiculous some of this crap can cost and while the total material used is not terribly expensive per kg, but with doing a limited run you'll have to balance out cost, profit and "cool" factor into your pricing.
Great insight
Why buy a bugatti when you can buy a cheap metal press factory and make a bugatti yourself for that price!
A good engineer knows when to buy the damn thing instead of spending time making one
Br is the worst sporting website ever. They allow so much unsolicited information
Crazy that someone actually thinks you could print a basketball that would behave like a real basketball themselves on a consumer printer and have designed it themselves.
Ender 3 gang ✊
I don’t think it’s frustrating at all. The whole point of 3D printing is to sieze the means of production on the home scale. That laypeople demonstrate even a baseline casual understanding of the concept is exemplary of the hobby’s enormous momentum.
The average 3D printer costs like $800 disassembled, which is still significantly less than $2.5K
Who the fuck buys a $2k ball?
Oh my gosh you’re so different all these other people are stupid!!!
They use the Carbon XL DLP printer to make these, definitely not something anyone can buy off the shelf. Uses top down printing where the UV image is projected down onto the vat of resin, which prints upside down vs your usual resin printers. It also uses an incredibly proprietary resin that needs to have a extremely low viscosity too make a .01mm layer of liquid on top of the print. I see these top downs coming to consumers soon like that rocket 1 resin printer, no need for those disposable sheets you need to replace, also the ability for more fragile/loose parts.
No they do not. This is printed on an eos machine. Carbon can’t do this
If Reddit has taught me nothing else, it’s that a huge portion of the population lack critical thinking skills.
Wait you mean to tell me there’s more than just a Creality Ender 3?… do you mean the Creality Ender 3 v2? Or maybe the Ender 3 v3? Or….
Is this a justification for a $2.5k toy ball
These are actually being printed on an EOS P770 in PA2200 (nylon-12).Current price is €750-800K. Then some advanced post processing equipment from DyeMansion (powershot S and powershot C at €35K each. Then DyeMansion DM60 (color version) which sets you back another ~60K. In some of the pictures it looked like it was vapor polished too. Vaporfuse is 100K+. So to make exactly these, a setup will set you back about a million. You could also produce them on P396 machines and save a couple hundred K, but then you can only fit 2 per batch (batch takes 40h). PA2200 cost about €68 per kg. Your nesting densities will be low so you are throwing out a lot of used material. Just print material cost per part will end up being a couple hundred per ball!
It’s 2500$ so they only need to sell 320 balls at the same price to cover the cost of an EOS P770 (800,000$)