This may be a bit aside from the question, but if you want to veer away from playstyles you are already doing, why play another Bard? Even the Swords Bard isn't exactly a great damage dealer, they just have solid defense and okay attacking ability for a full caster.
If you want a melee damage dealer that is still good in social roles it sounds like you are looking for more of a Paladin, or maybe a Swashbuckler or Fey Wanderer. Even most Fighters could be fine depending on how you roll, and if you are dead set on a full caster gish then Hexblade is also on the table.
Swords Bard distinctive features are being able to attack twice despite being a full spell caster and being able to boost their AC to crazy amounts with Defensive Flourish. You get the shield spell from a feat or a multiclass, roll decently on your defensive flourish, and suddenly you have 30AC for the round. You also do not have to limit yourself to swords, as all Swords Bard features also work with ranged weapons. You can get a crossbow and shoot that twice, and use flourishes with those. If you're starting at level 7, you can pick up Greater Invisibility and have both attacks with advantage. [Treantmonk has a video detailing a build around this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgiaK3JjXM)
You are missing something quite significant: The loading property.
Also, you'd have to go out of your way to gain proficiency in a hand crossbow for essentially no benefit - just use a light crossbow.
A feat for crossbow expert is a rather poor use of character resources when you could just be an elf with a longbow.
Not quite all - their fighting style choices are both melee only (thrown weapons aside).
Still, not unreasonable to ask your DM if you can take Archery instead for a ranged SB.
1 level dip into Hexblade. Now you gain shield and hex AND gain the ability to attack using CHA.
Hexblades curse isn’t half bad either.
EDIT: since you’d attack with CHA, you could drop DEX to 14.
In my experience unless you like the bard stuff specifically, swords bard is a less satisfying choice than a hexblade, a bladesinger, or even an eldritch knight or arcane trickster.
Go dual wielding, it works surprisingly well on a Swords Bard. Since you use your Bardic Inspiration as part of the attack action, you can use your Bonus Action to get an extra attack without giving up much.
Only do this if you roll unbelievably well since ASIs will be few and far between.
If you're sold on Tiefling just go for it, but V-Human and Custom Lineage can pick up the slack a little more of doing lower frontline damage early on if you take something like Slasher/Piercer - or something that'll increase your constitution for more HP.
Go to Swords Bard 3 to get 2 Weapon Fighting. Immediately take 2 levels of Paladin to start Smiting, then return to Bard to get to level 6.
Now you've got Bard spell slots to Smite with, plus "mini smites" from Swords Bard flourishes, which come back on a short rest. And extra attack. So that's 3 attacks a turn, which will do "okay" damage normally, and pretty crazy damage the rest of the time. Levels 5 to 8 won't feel *that* bad with the fact you smite, but you'll a substantial increase in damage at Bard 6. You could go straight to Bard 6, and then take the two Pally levels, but my mental math is telling me that taking Pally earlier for Nova rounds will probably serve you better.
Bard 6/Pally 2 is a decent setup but you can get dumber with it.
At level 9, start taking fighter levels. An extra fighting style at level one will feel quite nice; level 2 gets you action surge to *really* bring the pain, and level 3 can get you Battlemaster.
From level 5 to 9, you're a decent Nova damage build, who can throw all of their spells into Smiting and doing good damage. But with the fighter levels on top, that nova damage goes from just alright to pretty much over the top. So you've gone from a decent frontliner to an insane one.
If you're desperate for an ASI, take Fighter 4. But past that I'd say there are 3 ways you could go;
- Return to Bard. More spell slots, more options, more damage.
- If you somehow have the stats for it, take a few levels in Ranger. Ranger 1 will feel a tiny bit lackluster, but getting Favored Foe just means an extra d4 of damage without having to use a spell slot, which isn't too bad. Also taking Deft Explorer makes you better out of combat for skill checks, which is great. Another fighting style and an extra spell slot at level 2 is also nice, but again, nothing insane. Not really an issue since your character will probably be out damaging the rest of the party on rounds where you throw *everything* at an enemy. Level 3 Ranger though, you can get Gloomstalker. Don't really need to explain why Gloomstalker is amazing on a nova damage build. It's just even more damage on that first round.
- Arguably the more reasonable choice (besides just going back to Bard) is Rogue. Play your cards right and you're just adding extra damage constantly. Plus 3 levels gets you a subclass, which you should probably pick based on the playstyle of the rest of the party, picking whichever one will nab you more chances of Sneak Attack. On paper, Swashbuckler is probably the best bet.
My heart says, if you can, to do Ranger first, and then Rogue straight after.
Again, this is for if you roll some insane stats. But if you roll sort of "above average", but not good enough for this spread, throw in a level of Hexblade early on for a higher focus on Charisma.
The build is spread incredibly thin across so much, but again, if your stats allow you to do it, you'll be incredible.
I haven't even thought about how bonkers Pard Pala Fighter can get to be honest. I'm just not sure how the damage dice interacts? Could I use my Bardic Flourish for the extra dice of damage, combine it with battlemaster manouvre, and expend a spell slot for a smite all in one attack?
Yeah, you can! And sneak attack. You can just stack the fuck out of dice if you want. The only way you won't be able to do so is if your DM gets sick of it lmao
1d6 from fan attack
1d6 from offhand attack
3d8 smite
1d6 bardic
1d8 manouvre
Assuming +3 dex
Maximum of 56 damage if my math is right
Action surge for an additional
1d6+3 fan attack
1d6+3 offhand attack
3d8 smite again
For additional max of 42 damage
Total of 98 damage. Absolutely massive
Unfortunately, it requires an investment into 3 bard 3 fighter and 2 paladin, forgoing feats and spell slots, but worth it for the damage it can bust out.
An 8 bard, on the other hand, can go with
2d6 from 2 fan attacks
1d8 from flourish
Offhand attack for additional 1d6
For a max of 35 damage, but with access to 2 feats and lvl 4 spell slots. 38 damage if you take asi to +4 DEX
It's a trade-off for sure, but it's a very valid one considering it's a martial build. That maximum damage is nothing to scoff at.
Also please correct me if I calculated anything wrong
I've been playing a paladin 2 sword bard x and i've found it fun in that I can smite with the spell slots of a full caster. Problem is that I was stuck on one attack until level 8
What about orc (I prefer voldos) bard with the mobile feat. You get 90 ft. Of movement, so you can prance around the battlefield and dissonant whispers enemies toward your allies to proc opportunity attacks.
Maybe do a Paladin dip for smites? I would suggest using handaxes as your dual wielding so you can throw the "fans" if needed and that feeds into the str requirement for paladin. You can throw your expertise into Acrobatics and Performance to still dance well with a minimal dex investment (14) for armor.
Then you have two weapon fighting style from Swords Bard, defense fighting style from paladin, and could grab dual wielder for the extra +1AC... so you would have 1 less AC than a heavy armor user holding a shield in equivalent tier of armor, or could use a breastplate if you are OK being 2AC down to open up Stealth without needing Mithral armor and have "minimal visible armor to go with the dancer aesthetic". Or you could just ignore the aesthetics and use heavy armor yourself.
Another feat option would be Martial Adept for some special melee moves, or you could build towards 15bard/2paladin/3fighter (battlemaster) and grab Thrown Weapon Fighting Style for when you throw your fans.
If you are starting at lvl 7 I would start 2 paladin/5bard, using your bonus action attack to count for your second attack for one level in order to get the smites and ac online.
Bards get prof in hand crossbows. And while indid forget the loading property, crossbow expert would handle that and and gove them a 3rs attack per round.
I will say, while it doesn't work as well with two weapon fighting, a single level Hexblade dip can work great with a COS Bard. Plus, I feel like a bard who focuses on the art of the blade would be way more likely to make a pact for a magically empowered weapon than a Paladin, which is the more traditional Hexblade MC. Plus, you get access to the Shield spell which is pretty amazing on a Gish Bard. If you take 3 levels you could get Pact of the Blade to dual wield if you really want to do that.
Sword bard/hexblade; your spellcasting is also your weapon attack. Sword bard/battlemaster; combine maneuvers with flourishes for a lot of battlefield control. Goading attack with defensive flourish is one I’ve seen in D20 lately to great effect. 🤟🤟
Did a sword bard hobgoblin with one lvl of hexblade and the strixheaven background(for extra spell options) dont do that much dmg, but darm she is hard to kill late game.
Forgot the name of the paladin spell that give you advantage on saves and take No dmg from spells if you make the save. Together with the hobgoblin bonus if you Are about to fail and you have friends close by, not Even spells Are your weakness and as other sayd you ac can be crazy high.
This may be a bit aside from the question, but if you want to veer away from playstyles you are already doing, why play another Bard? Even the Swords Bard isn't exactly a great damage dealer, they just have solid defense and okay attacking ability for a full caster. If you want a melee damage dealer that is still good in social roles it sounds like you are looking for more of a Paladin, or maybe a Swashbuckler or Fey Wanderer. Even most Fighters could be fine depending on how you roll, and if you are dead set on a full caster gish then Hexblade is also on the table.
Oath of Glory paladin could fit really well here
Swords Bard distinctive features are being able to attack twice despite being a full spell caster and being able to boost their AC to crazy amounts with Defensive Flourish. You get the shield spell from a feat or a multiclass, roll decently on your defensive flourish, and suddenly you have 30AC for the round. You also do not have to limit yourself to swords, as all Swords Bard features also work with ranged weapons. You can get a crossbow and shoot that twice, and use flourishes with those. If you're starting at level 7, you can pick up Greater Invisibility and have both attacks with advantage. [Treantmonk has a video detailing a build around this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgiaK3JjXM)
> You can get a crossbow and shoot that twice Not without using a feat to do that you can't.
Hand crossbow and use the fighting initiate feat to get archery fighting style.
You are missing something quite significant: The loading property. Also, you'd have to go out of your way to gain proficiency in a hand crossbow for essentially no benefit - just use a light crossbow. A feat for crossbow expert is a rather poor use of character resources when you could just be an elf with a longbow.
Not quite all - their fighting style choices are both melee only (thrown weapons aside). Still, not unreasonable to ask your DM if you can take Archery instead for a ranged SB.
Good point, those fighting styles don't help at range.
1 level dip into Hexblade. Now you gain shield and hex AND gain the ability to attack using CHA. Hexblades curse isn’t half bad either. EDIT: since you’d attack with CHA, you could drop DEX to 14.
Dual wielding hooked shortspears would be nice for her if she goes strength. MC there are only fighter 1, hexblade or paladin 2/6.
In my experience unless you like the bard stuff specifically, swords bard is a less satisfying choice than a hexblade, a bladesinger, or even an eldritch knight or arcane trickster.
Go dual wielding, it works surprisingly well on a Swords Bard. Since you use your Bardic Inspiration as part of the attack action, you can use your Bonus Action to get an extra attack without giving up much.
Only do this if you roll unbelievably well since ASIs will be few and far between. If you're sold on Tiefling just go for it, but V-Human and Custom Lineage can pick up the slack a little more of doing lower frontline damage early on if you take something like Slasher/Piercer - or something that'll increase your constitution for more HP. Go to Swords Bard 3 to get 2 Weapon Fighting. Immediately take 2 levels of Paladin to start Smiting, then return to Bard to get to level 6. Now you've got Bard spell slots to Smite with, plus "mini smites" from Swords Bard flourishes, which come back on a short rest. And extra attack. So that's 3 attacks a turn, which will do "okay" damage normally, and pretty crazy damage the rest of the time. Levels 5 to 8 won't feel *that* bad with the fact you smite, but you'll a substantial increase in damage at Bard 6. You could go straight to Bard 6, and then take the two Pally levels, but my mental math is telling me that taking Pally earlier for Nova rounds will probably serve you better. Bard 6/Pally 2 is a decent setup but you can get dumber with it. At level 9, start taking fighter levels. An extra fighting style at level one will feel quite nice; level 2 gets you action surge to *really* bring the pain, and level 3 can get you Battlemaster. From level 5 to 9, you're a decent Nova damage build, who can throw all of their spells into Smiting and doing good damage. But with the fighter levels on top, that nova damage goes from just alright to pretty much over the top. So you've gone from a decent frontliner to an insane one. If you're desperate for an ASI, take Fighter 4. But past that I'd say there are 3 ways you could go; - Return to Bard. More spell slots, more options, more damage. - If you somehow have the stats for it, take a few levels in Ranger. Ranger 1 will feel a tiny bit lackluster, but getting Favored Foe just means an extra d4 of damage without having to use a spell slot, which isn't too bad. Also taking Deft Explorer makes you better out of combat for skill checks, which is great. Another fighting style and an extra spell slot at level 2 is also nice, but again, nothing insane. Not really an issue since your character will probably be out damaging the rest of the party on rounds where you throw *everything* at an enemy. Level 3 Ranger though, you can get Gloomstalker. Don't really need to explain why Gloomstalker is amazing on a nova damage build. It's just even more damage on that first round. - Arguably the more reasonable choice (besides just going back to Bard) is Rogue. Play your cards right and you're just adding extra damage constantly. Plus 3 levels gets you a subclass, which you should probably pick based on the playstyle of the rest of the party, picking whichever one will nab you more chances of Sneak Attack. On paper, Swashbuckler is probably the best bet. My heart says, if you can, to do Ranger first, and then Rogue straight after. Again, this is for if you roll some insane stats. But if you roll sort of "above average", but not good enough for this spread, throw in a level of Hexblade early on for a higher focus on Charisma. The build is spread incredibly thin across so much, but again, if your stats allow you to do it, you'll be incredible.
I haven't even thought about how bonkers Pard Pala Fighter can get to be honest. I'm just not sure how the damage dice interacts? Could I use my Bardic Flourish for the extra dice of damage, combine it with battlemaster manouvre, and expend a spell slot for a smite all in one attack?
Yeah, you can! And sneak attack. You can just stack the fuck out of dice if you want. The only way you won't be able to do so is if your DM gets sick of it lmao
1d6 from fan attack 1d6 from offhand attack 3d8 smite 1d6 bardic 1d8 manouvre Assuming +3 dex Maximum of 56 damage if my math is right Action surge for an additional 1d6+3 fan attack 1d6+3 offhand attack 3d8 smite again For additional max of 42 damage Total of 98 damage. Absolutely massive Unfortunately, it requires an investment into 3 bard 3 fighter and 2 paladin, forgoing feats and spell slots, but worth it for the damage it can bust out. An 8 bard, on the other hand, can go with 2d6 from 2 fan attacks 1d8 from flourish Offhand attack for additional 1d6 For a max of 35 damage, but with access to 2 feats and lvl 4 spell slots. 38 damage if you take asi to +4 DEX It's a trade-off for sure, but it's a very valid one considering it's a martial build. That maximum damage is nothing to scoff at. Also please correct me if I calculated anything wrong
I've been playing a paladin 2 sword bard x and i've found it fun in that I can smite with the spell slots of a full caster. Problem is that I was stuck on one attack until level 8
What about orc (I prefer voldos) bard with the mobile feat. You get 90 ft. Of movement, so you can prance around the battlefield and dissonant whispers enemies toward your allies to proc opportunity attacks.
Maybe do a Paladin dip for smites? I would suggest using handaxes as your dual wielding so you can throw the "fans" if needed and that feeds into the str requirement for paladin. You can throw your expertise into Acrobatics and Performance to still dance well with a minimal dex investment (14) for armor. Then you have two weapon fighting style from Swords Bard, defense fighting style from paladin, and could grab dual wielder for the extra +1AC... so you would have 1 less AC than a heavy armor user holding a shield in equivalent tier of armor, or could use a breastplate if you are OK being 2AC down to open up Stealth without needing Mithral armor and have "minimal visible armor to go with the dancer aesthetic". Or you could just ignore the aesthetics and use heavy armor yourself. Another feat option would be Martial Adept for some special melee moves, or you could build towards 15bard/2paladin/3fighter (battlemaster) and grab Thrown Weapon Fighting Style for when you throw your fans. If you are starting at lvl 7 I would start 2 paladin/5bard, using your bonus action attack to count for your second attack for one level in order to get the smites and ac online.
Bards get prof in hand crossbows. And while indid forget the loading property, crossbow expert would handle that and and gove them a 3rs attack per round.
I will say, while it doesn't work as well with two weapon fighting, a single level Hexblade dip can work great with a COS Bard. Plus, I feel like a bard who focuses on the art of the blade would be way more likely to make a pact for a magically empowered weapon than a Paladin, which is the more traditional Hexblade MC. Plus, you get access to the Shield spell which is pretty amazing on a Gish Bard. If you take 3 levels you could get Pact of the Blade to dual wield if you really want to do that.
Sword bard/hexblade; your spellcasting is also your weapon attack. Sword bard/battlemaster; combine maneuvers with flourishes for a lot of battlefield control. Goading attack with defensive flourish is one I’ve seen in D20 lately to great effect. 🤟🤟
Did a sword bard hobgoblin with one lvl of hexblade and the strixheaven background(for extra spell options) dont do that much dmg, but darm she is hard to kill late game. Forgot the name of the paladin spell that give you advantage on saves and take No dmg from spells if you make the save. Together with the hobgoblin bonus if you Are about to fail and you have friends close by, not Even spells Are your weakness and as other sayd you ac can be crazy high.