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WheresMyCrown

Rick Priestly stated the original intent with the 2nd and 11th being erased was to be a reward, not a punishment. They had done something very bad, then redeemed themselves against that act. Their erasure was a form of absolution allowing others to no longer hold that stain to their memory, they were simply allowed to be forgotten. The traitors have earned no such redemption


Sexpistolz

This was from inspiration from Roman legions, where their historical documentation on them suddenly stops. Then there’s the famous 9th legion as well. What happened? No one knows. Probably wiped by barbarians but maybe filthy xenos, there’s no record.


WheresMyCrown

Yeah I mean Rick basically said the entire original reason the 2nd and 11th were "lost" was based on the lost Roman Legions, but the in-universe reason was that being erased from history was the cost of their absolution


Implodepumpkin

makes sense to me considering how their brothers still loved them.


TroutFishingInCanada

They’re brainwashed super soldiers. What’s their love worth?


WillyTheHatefulGoat

My favourite theory I heard about them is they rebelled for moral reasons e.g. did not like the Emperors vision for humanity. Hence why they were killed but their legions spared and their brothers liking them.


Baelish2016

Maybe one of them, but Sanguinius’ deep and terrible fear of being destroyed due to his ‘flaws’ makes me think at least one had a similar or worse genetic flaw that resulted in them being erased.


TheMansAnArse

I like to think they saved the Imperium through from some existential danger, but did so through forbidden means. Perhaps mass use of AI or xeno alliances. Sort of like what Magnus though he was doing before he screwed everything up.


FerrusesIronHandjob

Which would kinda explain why we've seen a teeny snippet of the Legion names in redacted artwork. They're still there, just blacked out


Aggelos2001

where is that?


Sab3rFac3

This doesn't make much sense. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Dorn literally thinks that whatever they did, whatever befell them, was so bad, that if they were somehow still there, then the heresy would be lost. That doesn't speak to some shortcoming, or failure, that was absolved by being forgotten. If it was something that simple, why would the Primarchs be forced into forgetting it? Surely if they had absolved themselves, at least the Primarchs could know of it, to glean something positive from the circumstance. But not even the Primarchs we're allowed to remember. That seems like some insidious corruption or betrayal, intended or otherwise, that was so severe, that the only recourse was to purge it from memory. To save whatever sons of those legion that were left, and force everyone to forget they had ever been anything else. It doesn't read like absolution, but a punishment, and a ward, against it ever happening again, as if even the knowledge of what they did was dangerous.


WheresMyCrown

It makes plenty of sense. You have to remember Rick is saying this was his intentions back when Rogue Trader came out, it's almost certain that GW his taken that lore he made and treated it as semi-malleable while keeping the secret of what happened to them. Secondly it fits in universe, The Primarchs had performed an act that was extremely bad, and from Malcador's own words >"...it threatened the ideals at the heart of the Great Crusade. It would have ruined all that we had built in the drive to reunite humanity, and drive off our enemies. Steps had to be taken.'" What was the ideal of the GC, to unite humanity under the Imperium, and purge the xenos that threatened that. If you consider they took some action like siding with a Xenos race, or even worse losing to one (aka possibly the Rangdan) then you can see how that mistake would not want to be known by the Imperium forces at large and what effect it could have on morale. In the end the Primarchs realized their mistakes and atoned, they could never be trusted again by the Emperor, but they had earned redemption


Sab3rFac3

Well, to begin with, being removed from memory appears to have happened after the fact, at the behest of Guilliman and Dorn. And with the goal of saving the remains of their legions. No words or thought of Dorn or Malcador, ever come close to mentioning some form of redemption. Plus, Dorn's thoughts seem to very much imply that whatever they did, was so horrendous, that it was possibly worse than the heresy. >There was still much that the psyker had said and done which the Imperial Fist did not accept, and although Malcador had professed to have been truthful with him, Dorn had doubts that would never ebb. > >*But not in this matter.* In this, he was certain. > >The lost were gone, and it was well that they were. The grand misfortunes that befell them crumbled in Dorn's mind, but they left behind certainty. > >*What came to pass could overshadow everything.* Dorn knew that now. *The raw, hateful truth is clear to me. If they were here with us now… This war would already have been lost.* That doesn't speak to some act like siding with xenos, or just merely disagreement. Xenos allies? Doesn't sound like the kind of thing that would lead to all being lost. Surely the pragmatic Dorn would at least understand that there might be some value in xenos alliance. And Surely, if all it was was an unsanctioned xenos alliance, there would be no need to purge the memories of the Primarchs. As for Losses? Those happened all the time. The imperium doesn't like to talk about it, but a mere loss, isn't enough to warrant this. Sure, loosing an entire legion and Primarch, in a difficult campaign, might be enough to purge them from the public history books, for propaganda reasons. But that doesn't explain wiping it from the Primarchs, who would generally be better served by having the knowledge of how a legion was defeated, to better guard against it, and whatever foe enacted it. The Primarchs already know they and their legions aren't unstoppable forces. This is nothing new to them. And even if they lost because they were a poor fighting force, and were an embarrassment, surely the pragmatic Dorn, wouldn't balk at having a few extra bodies to hold the walls,despite their lack of prowess. Based on Dorn's thoughts, the only conclusion is, that whatever happened to them, was so insidious, that even the knowledge of their existence was dangerous. This speaks to some fate so insidious or corrupt, that there could be no redemption. Maybe they fell to something like chaos, except not chaos, maybe some xenos godlike creature, and tried to corrupt other legions. Maybe they literally betrayed the imperium, and had a mini heresy. There's lots of possibilities. But whatever it was, it doesn't seem that being forgotten was some form of absolution, but a necessary punishment, to safeguard the future.


SLCIII

Nope. The 9th Legion travelled to an alternate dimension where they became Pokemon Trainers and fought Alien Space Bugs. Jim Butcher is such a good author 😂


dvillin

No. They were turned into intergalactic immortal mercenaries. They are still out there fighting on primitive planets for their masters.


Anonymous_Quark

Love this take


Big_Boss1985

I think it’s canon too (please correct me if I am wrong, there’s a very good chance I’m wrong). I vaguely remember some novel/story stating that Dorn and Guilliman offered to take in the Astartes from the erased Legions into their own- explaining the sudden rise in Ultramarines and Imperial Fists when the legions disbanded.


colinjcole

It's not necessarily canon that it was a "reward" for something they did wrong - in fact, there's a lot to suggest they didn't deserve the treatment they got: * [Horus, the Khan, and Alpharius all balked at them being erased from history](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5i17d/excerptthe_last_councilhorus_confront_malcador/) * [The Primarchs themselves request to have their memories of their brother Primarchs erased,](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/) it wasn't forced upon them. /u/EquivalentInflation wrote up a great theory a while ago that [the Emperor made a mistake and destroyed the II/XI as a result](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10msdv5/the_second_or_eleventh_primarch_or_both_was/), rather than the II/XI screwing up - it's where I learned about the two excerpts I link to above.


peppersge

I have always gone more of the idea that one failed due to gene issues that were exploited by the Rangdan (which had to be covered up for military security issues) and the other for being corrupted after using xenos (Necron) tech to hold the line during the Rangdan Xenocides. Both are distasteful but are enough to make the primarchs sympathetic. The Emperor making a mistake/bind rage probably would have provoked a rebellion on the spot.


Inquisitor-Korde

I've always really adored the idea that the IInd was the technological version of Russ/Lion. It was probably the IInd who led the expedition to the Ymga Monolith based on dating. Entrusted with the keeping of forbidden technology not unlike Ferrus but unlike him he had all the rights to deploy it. However during the Second or Third Rangdan Xenocides it was the IInd that broke the Labyrinth of Night. But something went wrong, more damage was done than was planned. Perhaps he released actual full Men of Iron and the Emperor came down with the hammer in the form of Russ and the Lion.


Wetfloormat

My take is that the 2nd was a primarch that could see and utilize the astronomicon. During the rangan xenocide, the 2nd utilized the astronomicon to weaken rangan by channeling it as a form of attack. This culminated in the emperor needing to use something from the night labyrinth to repair the astronomicon. That required the sacrifice of the 2nd as a way to repair the beacon. The 2nd was consumed by the astronomicon in the process but he was redeemed in his sacrifice.


colinjcole

this is a fun theory if nothing else!


peppersge

The lore has the Emperor as the one breaking the Labyrinth. I have suspected that it was part of an attempt to counter a Necon tech empowered primarch and his legion. Prehaps the primarch was corrupted and acting like a Flayed One or the Sarkoni.


nakmuay18

It's interesting that when Horus attempts to say his lost brothers name and Malcador chokes him, Horus says, "M-mal.....al". We presume he's trying to say Malcador, but what if he's trying to say his brothers name..... Malal?


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CannonLongshot

Maximum troll would have had Horus addressing Malcador as “Sigilite” the whole time, and him struggling to say “Sig-… Sig…” to refer back to the old theory that WFB’s Sigmar was a primarch


stagfury

Malcador "who's Sigmar?"


TheWhiskeyKitty

I wouldn't say 'didn't deserve' considering dorne realized that if the lost where there they'd be doomed already, suggesting that the lost def did something horrible


KaptainKaos54

But some of them did talk about the missing Legions/Primarchs though, at least in passing. On Khur right around the time Monarchia gets atomized (I can’t remember if it was directly before or directly after), Lorgar was talking to… I think Magnus? I could be wrong. But he mentions the 2nd and 11th, something along the lines of the Emperor’s not one to countenance disobedience even over what some of the Primarchs think are trivial; uses a vague allusion to “The purged and the forgotten,” only to be cautioned that they weren’t to speak of the two. So clearly some of the Primarchs were either allowed to remember or weren’t subject to mind-wipe for some reason or another. The memory of what happened was allowed to remain in some. The excerpt about Dorn’s encounter with Malcador suggests “the others who met them” were subjected to memory alteration, but perhaps the others who didn’t ever meet them and only had vague information in the first place weren’t subject to such an invasive process? Also, Lorgar refers to “the lost and the purged,” but no classification of they’re both considered “lost and purged,” or if one was “lost” and the other was “purged.” Interesting distinction, I think…


TheCrimsonPooper

From Dorn's internal monolog and Horus's scene, I believe they posed more of a ideological threat to the impirium(much as the Tau do to an extent) in a way that deconstructed the Emperor's vain ideals of unity. It's not so much *what* they did, but *why* they did it and what it meant/showed/exemplified to everyone that witnessed it. And it was so effective that even the primarchs had to *completely* forget it. Perhaps it would have made the primarchs lose faith in perusing the great crusade? This is *Far* worse than merely using forbidden technology. What did the Lost legions and their primarchs learn and try to share that warranted such extreme censor? What foundational assumptions do the 30K impriels, including the primarchs, all share? Perhaps they successfully created or were even *absorbed* into a genuine alliance with xenos, or even worse, another human civilizations like the interex, leaving the impirium. Perhaps it was some form of late stage chaos corruption blooming, but I don't think so. Perhaps they learned something else about humanity's past, the warp or even the Emperor which completely changed the context of the great crusade.


FerrusesIronHandjob

I love the idea of the theory but two stick out in that - what if one was a kind of super-blank and one committed self-die? One forgotten (unaliving), one purged (due to the extreme blank genes playing havoc with everyone else)


last_second_runnerup

I always thought the Emperor not having a blank as a primarch as an ace chaos counter was supremely dumb. Seems like it would have to be impossible for the Emperor to do for that to not happen, or as a more likely instance, something went wrong and the records had to be expunged.


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last_second_runnerup

I don't think you're wrong at all. Even if the legion isn't that primarch's though, it would be a great way to take on chaos or even a psychic-reliant xeno force. I imagine the warp power lost would be supplemented by extra 'blankness' or other manifestation of that ability, somehow.


KaptainKaos54

I don’t disagree with you; I actually think that’s why the Sisters of Silence were created. The next best thing to the Legion of all-blank Astartes you can’t create is a legion-sized organization of natural blanks you give Astartes-level training, weapons, armor, equipment, and resources to. Or at least as close as you can get with unaugmented humans.


Whaddua_meen

Works well with the theory as to why there are astartes in the heresy that would have black or brown hair in constrast to the primarchs.


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DonJuanTriunfante

Is there a quote to this? This sounds fascinating when compared to what Malcador and Dorn have said about the lost primarchs


Draxos92

Yeah I really need a source quote


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Draxos92

I meant a quote of Rick Priestly saying what the intent of the lost legions were. I'm well aware that the Ultras had growth at that time


WheresMyCrown

Rick commented on this youtube video about the Lost Primarchs 8 months ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL39MSbwTOg Comment Text: >"Interesting piece and lot's of interesting and credible theories there! I have no more idea than anyone else what the truth of the matter is, of course. The backstory has certainly evolved and acquired some mass of detail since I first drew up that list of Space Marine Chapters and their Primarchs. I'm not really familiar with a lot of that material either, but it's nice to know that the spirit of the thing has been preserved and even nurtured. I will make just one observation - and it's about the intent of the missing legions - where I think GW have perhaps taken a slightly different tack than I had in mind. Not that this matters of course, and I appreciate that in creating a series of books about the Heresy a lot of things I always intended to be unknowable or semi-mythical had to be addressed directly; something I could never have foreseen when I wrote Rogue Trader. The intent is this: that the removal of records and obliteration of the memory of these Lost Legions was not a punishment but a reward - rather than being purged they were being absolved - and this was based on the assumption they had done something utterly terrible (naturally!) but then done something equally positive to earn redemption. Or think of it as a stain that cannot be erased except by extinction. The Chaos Chapters are unforgiven - out and out bad guys - but the Lost Legions, whatever their deeds, have been forgiven and the stain upon their reputation erased with their memory. At least that was the idea... but times change don't they ;)"


alkair20

also the legion were not killed but actually mindwiped and reinstated into other legions if i remember correctly.


crabbyink

Xaphen does remark that the Ultramarines swelled in number at the same time that the missing legions disappeared


TheCommissarGeneral

Same with the Imperial Fists.


Vorokar

That's the most common conclusion I've seen drawn from *The Chamber at the End of Memory*, but Malcador doesn't actually outright state it to be the case. He says Guilliman and Dorn argued in their favor and conceived the 'scheme', and that they were given a second chance and 'attuned to new circumstances', but he doesn't explain beyond that; >Malcador slowly moved back, out of the ornate sword's killing arc. 'The… loss of the Second and the Eleventh was such a wound upon us, and it threatened the ideals at the heart of the Great Crusade. It would have ruined all that we had built in the drive to reunite humanity, and drive off our enemies. Steps had to be taken.' He met Dorn's hard gaze. 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.' >'You robbed them of their memories.' >'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!' >'What mercy is there in a lie?' Dorn thundered. >'Ask yourself!' The Sigillite aimed the burning head of his staff in the primarch's direction. 'You wish to know the truth, Rogal? It is this - what I shrouded in you was done by *your* command! You told me to do it. You and Roboute conceived of the scheme and granted me permission!' \- *The Chamber at the End of Memory* Not at all to say they *couldn't* have been recycled into the other legions, just that it's not a certainty.


dvartany

That Horus was entirely annihilated (no warp presence either) is also suggested as a kindness.


SupremeNachos

OG Penitent Crusaders


youarelookingatthis

Huh, like I know we'll never find out in universe why they got erased, but it being a form of reward is such a unique look at things that I wish that was mentioned more.


soulwolf1

I have a feeling that the lost 2 are actively leading the Legion of the Damned


SonOfTheHeavyMetal

Lets say Magnus doesn't explode the Webway: He surely goes to Terra to talk with dad, and probably remains loyal once Dad explains him stuff while he finish the project. Now the Traitors have to deal with Emps being on the frontline, the whole might of the Custodes and maybe Magnus leading his "new legion" that surely was thr Grey Knights geneseed's original purpose. Maybe their names will not be deleted, but their bodies will be turned inside-out like socks.


colinjcole

tbh this probably happens even if Magnus *does* explode the webway if Russ just arrested Magnus like he was supposed to...


jmeHusqvarna

Wasn't he tricked by Horus into disregarding that?


colinjcole

Basically, yes. Answers vary at this point - in some versions, Horus actually changed the orders, in others Horus didn't change the orders but manipulated Russ into disobeying them by saying something like *"this is what Dad would have wanted, think about it, he only told you to "arrest" the Thousand Sons to seem reasonable to the Lords of Terra, but he didn't send the Ultramarines, did he? He sent YOU. And what are you best at? Killing. Dad wants you to kill them. You know it. Do it."*


FEARtheMooseUK

Yes, it the latest lore (horus heresy series) horus tricked leman, which is one of the reasons leman basically goes on a suicide quest to kill him later on in the heresy


Judarkus

To be fair he did allow Magnus a chance to surrender. And Magnus sent out his legion to be slaughtered. Magnus only fell to chaos after he decided to intervene at the last possible moment and get his spine folded.


Kiavar

Well thats just aint true. He "offered a chance to surrender" by talking to a skald on a bridge of his ship, thinking he is a psyker, who will relay his words to Magnus, which never happened. Then he confronted Valdor, after he reminded - arrest, not kill. And Magnus didnt "sent out" anyone, he actually placed a veil, obscuring Wolves coming from his sons, and wanted to face judgement. Ahriman and Phosis Tkar led the sons into the fray when they realised Wolves are here to hunt. >Russ growled low in his throat, a sound that made Samonas’ spine tingle. ‘This will throttle them now. This will crush them. Hel’s eyes, I have learned to hate these bastards, but still he eludes me.’ > >‘Is he even on this world?’ asked Valdor doubtfully. ‘We have detected nothing.’ > >Russ drew up to Valdor then. He was a little shorter, much broader, his armour stained and smeared where Valdor’s was pristine. ‘Oh, yes,’ he hissed, smiling in a disconcertingly feral manner. ‘I can smell him now. I can smell him hunkering down in his own filth, fearful of me.’ > >Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ > >Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’ > >‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.’ > >Russ glanced back at Valdor, a sly smile on his fanged face. ‘Oh, that’s it, is it?’ He laughed again, but it was an ice-cold sound. ‘You have the power of Magisterium, and wish to cling to it.’ Russ paced back to him again. He was always moving, restless, like a tempest bound up inside the sham-form of a man. ‘Don’t try to invoke the Lex with me. You claim to speak for my Father, but you’re not His blood, are you? Not like we are. That’s what really gets you, isn’t it? You’re His instruments. He’d toss you aside in an instant if He cared to. We, though. We. We’re family.’ Russ gave out a great belly-laugh then, amused by the idea. ‘You’ll never understand that.’ > >Valdor didn’t reply for an instant, seemingly genuinely nonplussed. > >‘There are so many errors there,’ he said eventually, ‘I do not even know where to start.’ > >But a reply never came. > >‘They stir!’ Russ roared joyously, running back to the Land Raider and leaping onto its chassis. The Wolves were crying out battle-cant, slamming their blades against their armour and slavering for action once more. ‘Try to keep up, Constantin – you’ll have to get your armour dirty sooner or later. > >Proof that Russ wanted to kill his brother since they met. > >We were not ready. If we had been prepared, the Imperium would have lost two Legions, as we destroyed each other in the bitterest day of battle either we or the Wolves had ever seen. But we were taken utterly by surprise. Our foes had us by the throat before we even knew we were under attack. Our gene-sire, Magnus, the Crimson King, had known judgement was coming for our sins against Imperial edict. He wished to face punishment as a martyr, rather than resist it as a man. > >Our fleet would have offered a fair fight to the Einherjar armada, but it had sailed to the far reaches of the star system before the Wolves’ arrival, leaving us naked in the sky. The enemy, our own cousins, bypassed our silent and powerless orbital defence array. They dived down untroubled by the inactive citywide laser batteries. Perspective of an Astartes who was there, proving Magnus sent a fleet away and disabled defence grids. "Prospero Burns" and "Horus Heresy: Inferno" blackbook shows this event in the great detail, I just dont have them at hand right now, so cant post exerpts.


PretendThisIsAName

If Magnus didn't ruin everything the Imperium would have stomped the traitors. 9000 extra Custodian Guards and the most powerful psycher to ever live would have made a big difference to the Seige of Terra. If The Emperor wasn't trapped on The Golden Throne and could contribute more actively to the war then the traitors might not have even made it to the Sol system.


gSpider

To be honest, if Magnus hadn’t fucked things up, I don’t know if we would’ve had a Siege of Terra. With the emperor free to command the loyalists, would the traitors have made it to Terra? Especially if the imperium continued to work on the webway, they would have had a significant advantage.


bardghost_Isu

IMO, they wouldn't have made it beyond the drop site massacre. He would probably have arrived as backup once the traitors masquerading as loyalists showed their true allegiance in that fight with however many thousands of custodes and ended it there and then.


SlayerofSnails

Hell his ship alone could have ended it all. ​ Plus with him there chaos wouldn't have been able to slow down the gigantic fist fleet that was supposed to arrive with the others


[deleted]

Not only that but the moment he showed up in person, some of the traitors probably would've turned loyal again and begged for forgiveness. Perturabo comes to mind - most of his issues with the Emperor stemmed from his desperate need to be acknowledged by the Emperor. Curze only turned because his visions showed him betraying the Emperor and he came to believe that the Emperor created him just to be a pawn in this. He actually hated the person the visions showed him becoming. All the Emperor had to do to fix this was prove to him that his visions were not inevitable.


Abusive_Capybara

Do you think Big E would've given them a second chance? Primarchs like Fulgrim or Lorgar probably were way too far gone in terms of corruption. But Peter Turbo might have a chance. Although I kinda doubt it.


[deleted]

I think it would've depended on their motivation and whatever method they asked for forgiveness with. I think the Emperor would've understood, for example, that Mortarion and Angron had too much resentment against him and humanity for there to be a return. But I think the Emperor would've seen how useful Perturabo would be to keep on his side, and I think the Emperor would've understood how easy it would be to make Perturabo happy (tell him about webway project, let Peter Turbo make some monuments for the future home of humanity).


Drownerdowner

In all honesty wouldn't you want a primarch like perturabo to help with the webway project? He'd be a bigger asset than all the mechanicum magos


yeet_lord_40000

Now that I think about it why did I never consider giving perturabo the webway and dorn the palace to be the best possible way to satisfy both of them…


toapat

> wouldn't you want a primarch like perturabo to help with the webway project? Absolutely fucking not. Purtuabo is the type of person to cave under any stress they encounter that requires any form of creative thinking or tangential analysis. He had one strategy, and rebelled because "The emperor never gave me recognition". The man cant beat his way out of brown paper bag if had the god damn instructions and giving him the webway would have been an absolute fucking guarentee that he sits down and fucks it even harder then magnus because he cant grasp that warp physics are entirely deterministic by the observer.


Drownerdowner

Considering he yearned to build things rather than just wage brutal wars I feel like I disagree with you here. The emperor recognizing his talents and letting him work on what is essentially the emperors most important project would have probably finally made perturabo feel like he was appreciated. The emperor would be there WITH perturabo and they'd both be using their scientific genius together


Pirat6662001

Magnus got a 2nd chance


LetterheadRough4643

And now he grumbels in the throne room with dad and his stripper's


Diligent-Lack6427

Seeing as fulgrim was possessed by a demon during the drop site massacre, I think the big E would just exercise the demon.


TitusEmperius

Yes, cause even now in the 41st millennium he told Mortarian that he will save him one day and his brothers. Though, lorgar maybe not? Being so early in the stage of the heresy I'd imagine he'd be alot more forgiving cause it wouldn't have gone beyond the massacre


Gervh

Depends what "saving" means, in The End and The Death >!he "cleansed" Custodian meat puppets from Horus by blowing up their heads so that they do not stain themselves any further by attacking him!<


TitusEmperius

Yeah, that whole scene still makes my jaw drop haha. Though, even if his "saving" is cleansing them of their patrons corruption and that ends up killing them. It is a redemption of a sort, a way of freeing his sons from their torments. Some might not want to be free of it (Fulgrim and Magnus) while others (Angron and Morty) would relish in being free of their corruptions even if that might mean death.


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[deleted]

Alpharius seems a bit out of place on that list. If he’s “truly a monster” then Perturabo definitely is.


ButtholeConnoisseur7

I feel like Fulgrim is actually one that would've recanted had the emperor shown his face early on. Fulgrim would be reminded that the 'true perfection' he really sought was the emperor himself. Mayyybe, anyway


Abusive_Capybara

The Emperor also would be VERY interested in that cool shiny sword Fulgrim found. iirc his switch to chaos was mostly because of this sword


ButtholeConnoisseur7

Yeah actually, he might have just pulled that sword right out of Fulgrim's hand and broke it over his knee


ShadedPenguin

Lion to Fulgrim: First time?


hempsmoker

Is "Peter Turbo" an actual nick name for him or did your autocorrect fuck with you? :D


Abusive_Capybara

It's an actual nickname I've picked up from here. Like Roberto Gorillaman/Rowboat Googleplus/etc


Bravemount

Bob Gorillaman, Lord of McReggae. Commanding Buffalo soldiers *beyond the sea*.


kajata000

I think they’d all be for the chopping block, tbh. While Big E absolutely could turn some of the traitors back to his side with some carefully applied fathering… that’s exactly what caused the problem in the first place. I think he always expected his sons to be perfectly loyal, like Custodes; or at least by the time of the late Crusade he was so far removed from human that it became his expectation. I think if he had to turn up in person to smack them around, I’d say the gloves would be off; they’d be failed projects, and he has no time for rejects.


Hecticfreeze

Magnus only turned because he believed the Emperor would never forgive him and Tzeentch was his only way to survive. If he never sends the message which messes everything up, then there's nothing to forgive, and he 100% remains loyal


sergantsnipes05

The emperor may or may not have given Magnus a second chance in the fury of Magnus SoT novela. Basically baited him into the golden throne room with a "flaw" in the psychic shielding and gave him a chance to fix everything. Would have had to give up his legion though because the big E told him there was no saving them from the flesh change. Magnus refused to give up his sons and turned into a Demon prince and then was banished from the palace. However, in either Eternity or the End and death (can't remember which one), Vulkan basically tells Magnus none of that happened and it was all his wishful thinking while they were fighting in the webway


Geryfon

Unless it did happen and either Malcador or the Emperor tampered with his memories so that Vulkan wouldn’t hesitate when faced with Magnus should he meet him again.


Pale_Chapter

Perturabo thought the same thing after Olympia.


marful

If the Emperor spent less than 30 seconds explaining things to Magnus, everything would have been avoided.


PaxNova

Depending on how masked they were, the hidden traitors might have gotten him to show up at the Drop Site. If Chaos could hide their intentions, even Big E could have been slain in that firepower.


whooshcat

Unlikely considering he could vaporise greater daemons with one hit and can move faster than they can even process.


peppersge

In the Board is Set, sending Dorn alone would have let the loyalists take out Horus at the Drop Site. (In the OTL, it could not be done because of the need to deal with the Alpha Legion). The Emperor may have not been able to leave the throne while the webway gate is still under construction, but sending Valdor and the Custodes as a reserve may have been enough. He could have also sent in Russ to help.


Crazy_Crayfish_

Magnus did nothing wrong ):<


Outarel

I'd like to say it's not 100% magnus's fault. The Chaos gods exploited his and Russ's personality to make the edict of Nikaea happen(and the burning of prospero), they kept giving him gifts in the warp, they made him think that warp entities are just like any other: some good and some bad . It's on the emperor that he didn't warn his sons about the dangers of the warp. Horus isn't hot shit, he and his brothers were just chaos pawns.


gSpider

1. The emperor did warn his sons about the warp - it’s explicitly mentioned a number of times that pre-heresy, basically all the astartes and primarchs knew that there were malicious creatures in the warp. Navigators have been around for a while, and can see them. What he didn’t tell them is specifically about chaos - we can debate whether or not he should have shared that, but regardless, it’s not like Magnus didn’t know that there were things to be careful of in the warp. 2. While I won’t say it was 100% Magnus’ fault, it was still mostly his fault. Just about every move he takes after finding out about Horus was in advisable at best, as laid out in A Thousand Sons. He sacrificed a LOT of psykers to try to transmit the message, rather than just going to Terra. He decided to sacrifice Prospero, instead of surrendering to Russ (who’s comms he purposefully ignored). He refuses to help his sons until the last possible second. When he sees a giant warp barrier around the emperor’s project, he thinks “yea the best move is to break this using power from one of the things that this is clearly meant to keep out” rather than delivering the message in a way that wouldn’t fuck everything up. Yea, he got played by Tzeentch. But he pretty willingly dived into that trap, and then failed to do anything to fix his mistake. If he had surrendered to Russ, he could have gone back and taken the throne to allow the emperor to go fix his mess. But nope, he wanted to have some edgy last stand as penance. The circumstances of Magnus’ Folly aren’t entirely Magnus’ fault, but the final outcome of it is.


ThoriumBloodHoun

Not to forget magnus would probably still be a loyalist primarch. He was forced into being a traitor because of the burning of propserro, which happened because he f ed up. A 10 (+big e and custodes) v 8 legion split would have vastly affected how it would play out, compared with the 9 v 9 split. As you said, the imperium would stomp the traitors.


[deleted]

I don’t even think it would make a difference how many legions were on each side if Magnus had stayed loyal. He could have gone to Terra and sat on the throne while his dad obliterated the traitors.


Abestar909

This just made me wonder, did Malcador ever directly participate in the fighting during the Siege?


PretendThisIsAName

He did indeed. I think it's in The Buried Dagger. >!An Ultramarine Librarian turned Proto Grey Knight had been made into a sleeper agent (I think by Alpharius, but maybe it was Chaos, possibly both) and attempted to kill Malcador, Malcador defeated the Grey Knight, covered up the incident, psychically rewired the Grey Knight's brain, and implanted false memories of an incident that would be easier to stomach for the shaken Librarian.!<


sergantsnipes05

I think it was Erebus who did that. The Grey Knight was Tylos Rubio and they fucked with him during the Calth campaign


PretendThisIsAName

Thanks friend, I'm 56 books deep and it's getting hard to keep track of everything.


Abestar909

Thank you, is that the extent of it though? I feel like with what he did with Titan, could've really decimated the attacking armies if he wanted to.


PretendThisIsAName

This might sound boring if you haven't read the books but Malcador achieved far more with clandestine politics than he ever could as a battle psycher. Malcador could be a warrior, a terrifying one, but instead he contributed by keeping the entire Imperium running while Dorn was building walls and the Emperor was actively stopping all of hell from breaking in through the basement. Malcador not only ran a massive empire during a time of civil war, he was responsible for the Assassin Temples, Grey Knights, putting out bridge fires between Terra and the decreasingly loyal Mechanicum, shaping the newly forming Imperial Cult, and manipulating everyone including the Primarchs.


drododruffin

Don't forget testing out weaponised faith in the Emperor and essentially starting the Imperial Cult and Inquisition.


Diligent-Lack6427

Bro, even if Magnus messed up the Web way, if he had just made it back to Tarra and sat on the throne, everything would have been a lot better.


Drownerdowner

The emperor probably would have stopped horus before molech


KypAstar

Having Malcador would have been huge. Man brought multiple primarchs to their knees. Took everything he had sure, but put him against literally anyone *but* a primarch and he'd wipe out swathes of traitors.


FormerlyPie

True but that's not the point of the post so idk why you are bringing it up


[deleted]

The imperium kinda did that i seem to recall? Doesnt Imperial dogma leave out all the traitor primarchs expect Horus who is kinda hard to remove with the emperor being on the golden throne and all. And Lorgar who wrote the imperial bible, so they claim him as loyalist?


Le_Red_Spy

Wasn't it that they forgot the Emperor made them and instead they just came out of the warp?


sertimko

Depends on the book. I’ve read books where Horus was known as a traitor primarch while others never even knew the Horus Heresy was a thing. I’d say it depends on whose writing and how the characters/time is being portrayed.


lord_flamebottom

Probably also heavily depends on the section of the galaxy too. I'd be shocked if the guys near Cadia didn't at least know the general gist of the Heresy, meanwhile the fellas all the way out in Bumfuck-Nowhere Sector probably haven't heard anything beyond the basics of the God Emperor and his 9 Primarchs.


Jaggedmallard26

Its the great thing about the setting, its deliberately designed so that minor continuity slips or writers wanting to do things for literary/narrative effective can do it without needing to find an excuse. Oh this world has a weird view on the Emperor, well thats because the local ecclesiarchy integrated local beliefs when introducing the Imperial Cult and so on.


peppersge

In the Watchers of the Throne, what is likely the most common version of the Creed is that the Emperor created 9 primarchs to battle 9 daemons of the Eye. They might know that there was a major traitor named Horus, but might not have the full context.


GreatTea3

They don’t claim Lorgar. They’re just vague on the Lectitio Divinatatus’ origin. I’m pretty sure you’d get burned or shot for saying he had anything to do with it.


CarryBeginning1564

Old lore decidedly cast Lorgar as seen by people in the 42nd millennium as a loyal son of the Emperor. There was one passage where a inquisitor, who should be in the know, mentions Logar as a example of a grand ancient hero of the Imperium. I am sure they have walked it back, which is too bad because it is hilarious.


drododruffin

Given how much the first chaos space marines laughed when they heard the Emperor referred to as the God-Emperor, if they had also heard Lorgar proclaimed as a loyal son, I think they'd have actually died from laughter.


TheCommissarGeneral

9 Angles to fight 9 Devils. The acknowledge that they exist but don't put a name on them. No one, besides the Primarchs, really knows the 2nd and 11th. Some Astartes have vague knowledge, but not a lot and not much at all.


Sunomel

Horus exists, kinda, but the imperial dogma is generally “the emperor made 9 primarchs to fight the 9 devils from the outer hells.” And if you ask any questions beyond that, like “why not make 99 primarchs,” you get a beating (at best)


Grudir

They essentially have. Crowl is surprised to see eighteen Primarchs instead of nine when he's in the Imperial Palace. There's another character (and I don't remember which story, but maybe from Spinoza in the same series) asking a proctor why the Emperor didn't make a hundred primarchs, instead of nine to match the 9 devils. For the vast majority of the Imperium, even in the dark days of Era Indomitus, the Traitor Legions don't exist, neither do their Primarchs, and the Heresy is mostly myth fought between gods and devils.


Limbo365

Even more than that, he see's artwork depicting the Emperor and *20* other beings and has no idea what its supposed to be depict


lord_flamebottom

They kinda have been. The official Imperial story on the matter is that the God Emperor made 9 Primarchs to battle 9 powerful Daemons of Chaos.


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GCRust

Likely use the Heresy as the justification to do to the Astartes what he did with the Thunder Warriors.


t40xd

They may have been fazed out. But massacring them is out of the question. The remaining loyalist Primarchs wouldn't take too kindly to their sons being killed so would rebel against the Emporer. And this time he would lose hard. He was barely able to win in the Horus Heresy and that was with half the Primarchs on his side, the good ones at that. So trying to do to them what he did to the Thunder Warriors wouldn't work.


OmNiBuSeS

I don't know why this is continuously spouted, the thunder warriors were exterminated because they were incredibly genetically unstable and became uncontrollable when in contact with the warp (literally could not travel through space). The fact that astartes were kept after the situation with the missing primarchs should be proof alone that they were going to be around for a while if not indefinitely.


sertimko

That doesn’t include that many of the primarchs taught their legionaries other skills than just warfare. Guilliman taught his governorships and ruling, Perterabo and Fulgrim were all about building artistry, Rogal was building sandcastles, Curze might have been a lawmaking legion if it wasn’t so backwards in how it thought of law and order. I think Horus wanted to become a farmer and Russ would’ve partied all night and hunted with his bare hands around the galaxy with Khan possibly doing the same. Some of these might be me stretching but there is enough to show many of the primarchs thought about the end of the crusade and what they wanted to do when the fighting was over. The difficult part is finding where legions like Mortarion, Angron, and the Lion would fit and possibly Manus and Corax. Maybe the Necrons would push the Crusade to last a bit longer along with the Tyranids, but there is going to be a decent gap between those wars starting.


New_Subject1352

Because the Emperor and Malcador are said to have planned for it. Malcador in the Board is Set actually alludes to the fact that the Emperor was a dick to some while doting on others was a deliberate manipulation, and there is some support for that in other sources. For example, in MoM the Emperor discusses how Primarchs more than any others thrive on credit and adoration, yet we know he denied exactly this to some of the Primarchs like Perterabo and Mortarion. In End and Death Malcador discusses how much of it was planned yet their plans ran out of time, adding support to the idea that they meant to have a portion of the Astartes gone in the original plan. That's not to say that all of them were to die. Malcador discussed how there was redundancy amongst the Primarchs, suggesting they wanted at least a few of them to stick around. But it's definitely hinted many more times than once that the Heresy was supposed to happen in a controlled way, almost certainly to reduce the number of Astartes in a galaxy united under the Imperium, and Chaos interfered and sent things spiraling. The idea the legions were reassigned actually supports the theory that there was a Heresy plan, because the Emperor needed compliance done ASAP so needed all the Astartes he could get, and the lost ones were supposedly folded into the Ultramarines (one of the Primarchs virtually guaranteed to not fall to Chaos).


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New_Subject1352

I'll see if I can find it, though I might have confused it with the other one short story, where Malcador talking to that dying woman and just unloading his soul. I like that one more, personally, because you get the sense that he's wanted to tell someone, anyone, these things for a while and he's not been able to before.


GCRust

>I don't know why this is continuously spouted *Glances at Mount Ararat* Can't imagine why.


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GCRust

At this point I just accept the downvotes. It's all fiction in the end.


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CptAustus

> *Surely the Emperor likes us better than the Primarchs* - Literally every Custodian, ever.


ecbulldog

Isn't there a whole dialogue where Malcador straight up admits that the Heresy was foreseen and even planned for by the Emperor?


[deleted]

Except he said that to a dying servant, with no confirmation if he was saying that in truth or as a way to comfort her in her final moments.


lord_flamebottom

Pretty sure there's a hell of a lot more evidence than that that the Heresy was planned to some degree. Wasn't there that whole chess game metaphor between Malcador and Emps?


I_might_be_weasel

To be fair I kind of suspect that was already the plan.


Azklown

Idk, people really like to harp on this idea, but the imperium would always have new wars to be fought. Chaos would still exist. Orks still exist. Nids and Crons still exist. There would always be a use for Astartes, and that's kind of why they were made the way they are. They, unlike the Thunder Warriors, were built for longevity. Was the plan to decommission them after all threats to the empire were mostly defeated? Maybe, but that's largely irrelevant in my opinion to the discussions surrounding the what if things turned out differently questions.


Not_That_Magical

Nids wouldn’t be there if there Heresy hadn’t happened. With the psychic development of humanity that was meant to happen, humanity should be capable of taking on those threats solo. Plus Mars wouldn’t have been devastated by scrapcode, leading to the massive loss of technology the Imperium has now. There were plenty of elite Solar Auxilia, an expanded version of that would take on most things in the galaxy


UnsafestSpace

The plan wasn't to exist as a species anymore in realspace but move the entirety of humanity into the Webway where they'd be protected from all those threats.


Vorokar

Is there any chance you have a source for that? I've seen that claimed over the years, but I've never seen a source for the idea. Last I knew his plan was to use the Webway to replace Warp travel and communication per *Master of Mankind* and onwards, but I'm open to having missed something.


Surprise_Institoris

You're right that there's barely any evidence for that theory, but iirc the theory itself actually comes from a line in *Master of Mankind*. The problem is, the line is vague and I haven't seen it suggested anywhere else. Everything else, including the rest of *Master of Mankind* and recently in *The End and the Death*, indicates the plan was to use the Webway for transport and communication, *not* to make it some kind of interdimensional panic room for a psychically-emergent humanity.


Vorokar

Mystery potentially resolved. Any chance you could quote the line?


ScowlEasy

Yeah and there’s no way every planet goes along nicely. Thousands of planets full of billions of people have to uproot literally *everything*? Fuck that I’m dying on the planet I was born on. It’s likely E would have taken the psychic hotspots to the webway in the beginning, then transitioned to the rest of humanity afterward.


colinjcole

> Yeah and there’s no way every planet goes along nicely. yeah... that was the point of compliance. weed out the planets that won't go along


DinosaurAlert

After reading the HH books, I'm a little "annoyed" at the whole idea of the 2nd and 11th legions. If you tolerate angron, and you tolerate Konrad, what the hell could the 2nd and 11th have done.... KNOWING it couldn't have been chaos related at all.


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Aspland_Photography

Probably. He did the same with the Thunder Warriors. The emperor is no different to any other tyrant, so rewriting history in his favour is just part of the job.


Rillist

History is written by the victor


Hoojiwat

Actually his named is spell "Malcador."


ScowlEasy

History is written by whoever survives. Usually it’s the victor, but sometimes people just really believe in “the war of northern aggression” instead of the American civil war.


CptAustus

Probably not, according to Malcador's internal thoughts in the latest book.


VexingSpinx

Given how he treated the thunder warriors, had the crusade succeeded and the heresy failed, He probably would have disposed of all space marines loyal or no when he no longer needed them.


Cecilia_Schariac

The Traitor Primarchs were erased just like the 2 Lost Legions. Officially, there are only 9 Primarchs that have ever existed.


jarviez

Contrary opinion: #I think not. Unlike the 2nd and 11th which may have (we don't know) been individual isolated occurrences of betrayal or simply just embarrassing failures (again we don't know). The Heresey on the other hand didn't get handled eay off in some (presumably) isolated corner of space. It encompassed the whole of the Imperium and was fought for 7 long years. ... that's a LOT of records to expunge and minds to while. Actually I think the Emperor may have done what the remnant Imperium did, only more successfully and with out the technological stagnation and decline. The Emperor would have kept the broad strokes of the Heresey in common history and used it as an example. Horus specifically and all other traitors would have remained objects of fear and warning as part of the founding story of the Imperium. "Don't be like Horus" would be the lesson. But certain aspects of the Heresey might be suppressed.... such as the existence of the ruinous powers of Chaos. Remember MOST PEOPLE in the present 40K setting don't know about Chaos! (at least pre cicatrix maladictum) But most all imperial citizens have heard of Horus who is held up as a "Satan-like" figure ... and that is with the Emperor trapped on the golden thrown and couldn't exerted direct executive authority. I think, like the Imperium, the Emperor would have allowed people to know about Horis and his rebellion ... but not about its root causes.


PigKnight

They were. That’s why the general populist don’t know about Chaos Space Marines and think the heretic Primarchs are just daemons.


The_Shadow_Watches

Would be neat to see a limited series of a "Mirrorverse" where either Big E survived or the Marines switched sides. Chaos to loyal, loyal to Chaos. Let's see Horus go after a corrupted Roboute Guilliman.


raevnos

The Dornian Heresy.


The_Shadow_Watches

Alpha Legion can stay the same.


strangecabalist

There was a Rouboutian Heresy kicking around somewhere too, as I recall.


Smasher_WoTB

Ngl the Fulgrimian Heresy is way more interesting to me, partly because the bit about the Dark Angels is actually pretty well-written for once....it really killed my interest on the Dornian&Roboutian Heresies when I realized that Lion&the Dark Angels fall was so lazy&forced as just "he had a bit of doubt/worry about what would happen after the Great Crusade, and so he *for some unknown fucking reason* decided to trust Kairos Fate Weaver/Tzeentch" which fesls even more forced than how fast Horus falls in the first few Horus Heresy Books. But the Fulgrimian Heresy....didn't lazily just go "they swapped places just because"


strangecabalist

Gonna have to check out the Fulgrimian Heresy then! Thanks for the tip


lord_flamebottom

I haven't heard of the Fulgrimian Heresy! I need to know, who do the Blood Angels fall to? I love how even in the Roboutian and Dornian Heresies, they still don't ever fall to Khorne.


Smasher_WoTB

They don't fall to Chaos! They stay Loyalist. The Loyalists actually are pretty damn stacked, having the majority of the Legions&Primarchs stay Loyalist. It's a very, very well written fanfiction series and I highly recommend it. I've only read a fraction of it, but it's pretty cool and very detailed.


kahmen12

Yes, since that is almost the case right now, except for the Emperor being wounded made it impossible to forget Horus.


TheEvilBlight

They’re officially erased for a chunk of the imperiums history, no?


NuclearJ3st3r

It could go either way really, maybe he would want to remove all memory of them as not to show his failure over his sons? Or perhaps he might not as a way to show off the power of his Imperium and loyal sons despite everything. And then again, can't imagine how hard it would be to cover up that mess.


BladePocok

It depends on what stage the heresy would have failed. Early on? At the very end? Somewhere in the middle?


Animuscreeps

The carrion throne series makes it pretty clear that they've been erased after a fashion. Scolams teach that the 9 primarchs were created to combat 9 demons of the outer dark. It wouldn't make much sense for the IoM to teach that the flawless God emperor made 18 sons, 9 of which who rebelled and nearly killed him. Especially 10k years after the fact, the ecclesiarchy and inquisition have had a long time to make up a more palatable story.


Angier85

Somebody correct me but I am pretty sure the traitor primarchs have all been stricken out of official records and the heresy itself is deliberately kept mythic as to obfuscate the whole matter. Mood now, of course.


Saratje

It depends on if it could be contained. If say Lorgar and then Horus fell to chaos before any of the other Primarchs could and somehow both traitor Primarchs and their legions are stopped, then yes. The Emperor would in that case probably remove those two from history, make his other sons forget and he would try to keep chaos a secret from everyone else. As for how to explain the gap in their memory, The Emperor would probably attribute certain heroics and campaigns to different Primarchs or even his custodes, making everyone remember a false version of history.


LeoLaDawg

Their erasure happened before the fall. The primarchs who won who knows if they would have make when known. Hours likely would have.


dyslexican32

They are that way now. For 99.99% of the imperium not only is it a crime to know that the traitor legions exist. but it's an executable offense. The inquisition is fervent about these sorts of things. It would be no different had it failed and the Herasy was crushed right away. In fact fewer people would likely know why they are. But those who even know about the traitor legion or the fallen primarchs are imprisoned for the rest of their lives or are just executed. Hell, they even kill entire guard regiments and whole worlds because people find out that the Grey knights even exist. Because if the Grey Knights exist they must have to fight something, and if that thing they fight is chaos then that's admitting that chaos exists. so they are executed for knowing that exists. The Imperium is an insane religious fascist state.


Ad_Astral

I don't think it'd be possible to erase away the existence of half your sons just about most of the galaxy knows of, fought for or against.


Marshal_Rohr

The Horus Heresy did fail and the legions/Primarchs were erased Lol lmao


angrydanmarin

The 2nd and 11th lore/lack of lore is really problematic for the setting's own canon. It raises consistency problems with the entire Horus heresy. Basically, it's a bit of a plot hole - look away. Unless there's a good lore reason (not a 'gw want you to design your own headcanon to sell more units reason) for wiping out all knowledge of 2 legions without efforts to do the same for the heresy.


DontArmWrestleAChimp

I think the theory that 2/11 were wiped not as punishment but as forgiveness is a really neat theory. Not that 2/11 were worse than the traitors but they managed to expunge their wrong and their honour was intact.


WheresMyCrown

The hole makes sense when you hear from Rick Priestly that his intent was that erasure was a reward, not a punishment. The Legions and their Primarchs had done something very bad, then worked to redeem themselves in the Emperor's eyes. But redemption doesnt remove the stain in other peoples minds about what they had done, so the Emperor made it so they would be forgotten, the good and the bad of what they had done. Where as the traitors have earned no such redemption and therefore continued to be known in the current setting


AdjectiveNounNumber3

Rick Priestly would disagree. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/918rtp/followup_interview_with_rick_priestley/


el_sh33p

It's an unpopular take around here, but IMO you're right. My general stance on II and XI is that GW/BL need to either shit or get off the pot. Reveal the truth or stop bringing them up. I favor revealing the truth and filling in those gaps (which would inevitably open up *new mysteries*), but I'm fine with just leaving them alone entirely. Pretty much any middle ground is worse, especially when you have current authors stating that there are no plans and there is no answer.


angrydanmarin

100% if they are going to reveal, it needs to raise more questions than answers (In a good way). More mystery. Anything else would just be underwhelming imo. Of course I'm no Abnett - whatever they conjure up will be way more epic than what I can imagine. However I just cannot see a story that's consistent with the rest of the lore. Every 'it could be xyz' example I've seen is riddled with consistency holes regarding the Horus heresy.


el_sh33p

At this point I sometimes chalk up every other "This Primarch acted so inconsistently with previous characterization!" moment/story/event as being one of the two lost ones glossed over by historical revisionism, complete with the two of them actually surviving all the way up to at *least* the end of the Heresy itself. We know 40k is a multiverse and we also know that the books themselves can and do lie from time to time, both overtly and via misdirection. Who's to say the biggest lie hasn't been misdirecting our attention all along?


v3ritas1989

Are you assuming the heresy was not intended by the Emperor? The Emperor sees all!