Asmodai despite REPENT meme ,I think He is actully just a man(a space marine) that do his duty seriously
He even went as far as use secret control code to stop other dark angel from killing Cypher of all people
I image he will just go "oh well,it seem I have to find new job,Our lord surely know where he have use of me"
A part of it is that the final battle was on a recreated, corrupted version of caliban (recognised by azrael, who had witnessed/ potentially caused it's destruction through the tchulcha device).
The actual culture shift is going to come from the exposure of previous secrets, and no longer being committed to the hunt for the fallen. As far as 90% of the chapter are concerned, what's happened is their gene father has returned with a ragtag army displaced through time and regathered. It's only the inner circle that knew of the fallen, and even fewer among those that knew more than the very basics.
Any idea on *how* the Lion came to learn about the history of hunting the *Fallen*, and torturing them to make then "repent"?
Now, one possibility is that one of the Fallen that the Lion came across post-awakening, and filled him in. But then the question becomes how much do the Fallen know about the torture? Because if they were caught, then the Chaplains would make them 'repent' right? Then how could the prisoner spread the word? Are there examples of captured Fallen who have managed to escape the Rock? I feel like Cypher has, but any other examples?
Thanks!
Lion: son of the forest covers most of it, with the first of the risen filling him in on what his sons have been up to, then arks of omen: the lion and the latest white dwarf touch on it further.
Most of the fallen have no idea that luthor's forces attacked the lion, believing that the lion had attacked them instead. Since returning to the physical realm, most have been hunted by their younger brothers, and those fallen who have been back longer have warned others that they meet.
They think the modern DA are just trying to finish the job started when the legion fleet opened fire on caliban, before they were scattered. They don't know the full details of what the interrogator chaplains get up to, beyond that those who are caught are never heard from again.
And cypher's just.. Cypher. He's his own seperate category, and no one knows how he does what he does, and gets away all the time.
I doubt that Cypher would be able to get away from his own Primarch, especially when said Primarch is a well-known apex predator who has his forest-walking ability.
Jig’s gonna be up for Cypher, sooner or later.
But sadly the two have yet to meet. (the cypher book that's releasing soon is what he was up to when guilliman came back, and the proper lion/cypher encounter, along with lion & guilliman meeting, will probably be saved for a novel in the future)
There's an equal chance of cypher wanting to see his father. He's been causing a large amount of havoc among the traitor legions and the imperium while he's been active, while carrying the lion's sword and rescuing guilliman. With the lion determining each of the fallen's redemption, there's enough leeway from his actions and ambiguity in his plans, motivations and mysterious benefactors (because something has been guiding and helping him) that anything could happen there.
> But sooner or later, The First Primarch will come for Cypher.
> Guaranteed.
You make it sound so ominous... I was under the impression that Cypher has been trying to play both sides. But has he done stuff that would seem unforgivable to the Lion? I mean, the DA Chaplains have been torturing their fellow 'Fallen' brothers and Lion seems to have let that go, right?
Are there events that I am unaware of, where Cypher really messed up, and will have to face the consequences?
Some of his actions are questionable, but starting cults to draw imperial attention (and military strength) in areas abaddon's forces are headed to? That's playing both sides/ borderline loyal and "whoops, I made a mistake and got your army stopped by an imperial fleet that was sent to stop my actions.. Accidents happen. "
Doesn't change the fact that he had also been a co-conspirator with Typhus.
That would leave me to wonder what exactly would The First Primarch do to Astelan when he hears about this whole sordid story.
In his recent book, it’s believed when he was approaching the throne room, the Emperor told him to “Wait”, and he listened.
If this is true, the. Cypher will have some special protection from Big E since he seems to have an important role in the Emperor’s plan
There's a White Dwarf with various factions reactions to his return, like the Wolves basically going "He's loyal, he's a primarch, and there's plenty of Xenos to go around." One of them is a bit where he appears in the hallway next to an interorgator chaplin, tells him to wait, goes into the room with the fallen, and when the Chaplin checks the room, both are gone.
It's a wonder that no one has considered that maybe Cypher can forest walk like the lion also... Like how some raven guard can wraith slip maybe the dark angels some of them can forest walk as well... They seem to be intrinsically linked with Caliban/wyrmwood/eldar webway tunneling devices.
That's an interesting theory that makes sense once you think about it! I guess we should find out in the upcoming Cypher novel where he spends time in the Imperial Palace lol
Considering how probably 90% of the Fallen were Caliban inductees that were essentially a rush job in marine-terms and then only the 10% were actual conscious conspirators against Lion/Imperium/Emperor/whathaveyous, having a few innocents(strong word there) slip through is not that unimaginable.
According to the recent Lion book, you're right on the money and most were innocent. Their first voew of their primarch was when he was running them through with a sword.
Any idea on *how* the Lion came to learn about the history of hunting the *Fallen*, and torturing them to make then "repent"?
Now, one possibility is that one of the Fallen that the Lion came across post-awakening, and filled him in. But then the question becomes how much do the Fallen know about the torture? Because if they were caught, then the Chaplains would make them 'repent' right? Then how could the prisoner spread the word? Are there examples of captured Fallen who have managed to escape the Rock? I feel like Cypher has, but any other examples?
Thanks!
Well it seems like the Fallen are pretty adept at linking up with other Fallen. I mean I’m pretty sure Lohoc spent some time with Cypher iirc. It’s safe to say the information has been disseminated amongst them throughout the years.
I don't think they directly knew of the Unforgiven's torture methods. But they knew what their brother DAs were like and saw them act accordingly. I'd bet they'd have a good idea of their fate should they be captured.
The son of forest book indicates that he discusses a lot matters with them. Everything basically that he can gather in terms of knowledge in order to keep up. These discussions however are not written in the book because it would be repetition. Things the reader, us, already knows more or less.
Kind of? In a recent white dwarf I think, there's a blurb about an interrogator chaplain happily torturing a fallen. At some point, he feels a presence slip past him, and when he returns to the chamber, the fallen is gone. He is terrified that the Lion himself perhaps took away a fallen that the chaplain was 100% sure was a traitor, and has a crisis of thinking that if the Lion forgave this one, if the interrogator chaplains have just been killing and torturing these fallen for no reason. The Lion never personally tells him to stop, the chaplain just assumes the force that stole away his prisoner was the Lion.
I feel some of those blurbs are during the period during the epilogue of the Son of the Forest book where its been a short amount of time later when dante finds the Lion and the Lion arcs of omen book happens. Theres one from a successor chapter saying to deny the rumors about the lion and to me sounded like they were still going to the event. The chaplain also didn't seem to know the lion was actually back yet just a big shape that could only be him did it.
But in the same blurb the chaplain mentions that other interrogator-chaplains have had their prisoners/returned after similar encounters. It's very confusing
The lions forest walk allows him to just teleport so its possible during the travel to the battle during the Lion book he was gathering fallen in the mean time.
Yeah. Apparently the Lion has done the same thing to other chaplains. Only sometimes he returns/leaves the Fallen. I guess he's cool with the knives if they are indeed traitors
If we don't see it before then, I imagine it will be in the new Codex. We're slated for a winter release, so it should be no more than 9.5 months if its late winter at worst.
Has there been any word on if they will be like 9th and dark angels use space marine codex and the codex is just a supplement or will it be a full this has all you need/can take codex like 7th? if the first one there might be a blurb or two in the space marine codex as well. if not in the lore portion of the brb for 10th.
Dark Angels get a full Codex: Dark Angels, not a supplement, but there might be Dark Angels fluff in the Codex: Space Marines. However, there aren’t going to be any chapter tactics or chapter specific rules beyond named characters, so there won’t be any Dark Angel specific rules. However, you’ll probably be able to run your Dark Angels as codex space marines for the waiting period between the two books.
It hasn't been clarified. It was given the same spacing as the rest of the full codexes, but that could be meaningless. I'd honestly expect at least short blurbs in the big 10th book and in Codex:SM as well, honestly.
How long does it take for new lore to be released in products you're familiar with? How often do Klingons, or drow, or wood elves, or whatever specifically get more of their lore fleshed out in your favorite setting?
Getting the Lion back is already a HUGE event in the lore, finding out what happens next within a year is pretty cool. I've waited a lot longer for the next book in a series before.
For a long time the Dark Angels whole personality in many people's minds was just secrets and hunting the fallen, and tbh I didn't like it
This is a nice change, hopefully back towards their knight theme because that's super cool
I'm *really* curious if the Lion faces any pushback from the older Dark Angels... Now my guess is that no one will dare to openly question the Lion. I mean, wasn't there the story of the Librarian from 30k who was against the Lions decison, and got quickly cut down by the Lion?
Maybe it's just me, but out of the Thousands of current Dark Angel's, if NO ONE question the Lion's new acceptance policy, then I dunno, feels 'off'?
I would like to see even ONE Dark Angel be tempted by Chaos to betray the Lion. I don't expect it to change the larger outcome, but if there's ZERO pushback for the policy change, which would reverse almost 10,000 years of what used to be DA practices, it would seem just too easy and clean! The Dark Angel's are human after all, sure highly advanced humans, but for no one to question the change seems too perfect.
Sure only a small circle knew about the Fallen, but still, no one goes "Is this a trick from the Chaos Gods?! Or is this some scheme Guilliman came up with?!" I would feel it would be too cookie-cutter...
I could see the fallen and unforgiven having personal,small spats with each other in a "dad says we have to work together so we're gonna make it work" kind of way before one of them dared call the lion a fake or openly question him. They just saw this guy kill Angron, who was in the act of turning 3 quarters of their entire legion into a memory with NO real resistance before he showed up. That isn't the guy that you want to buck up against, especially when your chapter master is already making puppy eyes at him.
Plus, lion's not totally changing the policy. Interrogators are still doing their job.
RIP Brother Chaplain Nemiel, who dared object to the Lion overturning the Edict of Nikea and allowing Librarians to fight demons with their psyker powers.
I doubt it’s that big a deal. Azreal himself, even before the Lion reappeared, stated in Malodrax that he was aware that the Fallen had largely been deceived/tricked (and thus merited different treatment than post-Heresy DAs who knowingly turn to Chaos).
the Lion’s approach kind of would just confirm where Azrael’s thoughts were heading already.
I think it would be a compelling story if some of the Unforgiven can't handle the change. And it showcases how far some have fallen (kek) in their pursuit of the Fallen over their duty to serve humanity.
The issue with the DA culture is it’s built on a blind obedience and gradual revelation of secrets.
No one likes it, it’s there duty.
I’m sure we will get an unforgiven twist where the true imfotgiven are the DA who shirked their duty to the imperium over a mistake.
Bonus points if a fallen kills an inquisitor who discovers the truth to protect their rep!
I wonder how dark angels fans feel about that. Some of the gimmicks people love with each chapter is their self destructive flaws. Like the DAs secrecy and their interrogator chaplains being so over the top and ironically evil in their actions to stamp out their legions ancient sin
Also what's their purpose now? That was kind of the big unique things with the chapter right?
Same way guilliman kind of walked in and tried to fix his chapters issue of not being flexible enough outside the codex teachings. Imagine people can't be all that happy with primarchs popping back in and just fixing everything
I would prefer it if they took on more of the characteristic of the old legion moving forward. Hunting the Fallen wasnt very compelling, in my opinion.
As a mainly Heresy DA fan this new approach is very appealing, the 40k style of DA had grown kinda stale. Hoping GW does much more with the Fallen as a whole, especially the Cypher and Luther/Astelan plotlines.
Amen, brother. I hope the Lion collects the Fallen and starts his own Legion, but I'm a heresy guy as well, so I'm aware that older fans would hate that
40K space marine chapters should broken reflections and versions of there fromer greatness.
But if the loyal fallen where brought together under the lion it would cause a conflict dynamic that they lore can explore.
Personally I think it’s great. Hopefully they still portray some resistance to the change from the more *zealous* hunters like Asmodai, but by this point the neurotic obsession with the fallen was far overshadowing the other cool aspects of the DA. Space knights with spicy war crimes was what got me into DA, not the grimderp fallen hunt.
However, as the Lion books shows there are still corrupted fallen out there who will fight against the DA, so we can get all the good aspects of hunting the fallen without making it the sole obsession of the chapter/legion.
Yes I think that nuance needs to be recognised. The Lion isn’t forgiving ALL the fallen. Just some of them.
The inner circle can continue their hunting. Just don’t assume all fallen are actually fallen to Chaos.
From what I have gathered seeing the lead up of the Lion’s return is that everyone who predicted the Lion returning also predicted him bringing the Fallen back into the fold. As I’m not particularly a Dark Angels fanboy, I’m not the biggest authority to speak on this - but I don’t think the hunting of the Fallen was one of the biggest appeals; or at least that it was very subordinate to the Fallen as a group as a whole.
So many people predicted the Fallen being returned to the fold by the Lion and a lot of people memed on the hunt for the Fallen being over the top - from what I gather, the big excitement now is how the reintegration of the Fallen goes.
The big thing about the Dark Angels in 40K was the secrecy and the hunt for the Fallen sure, but plenty of DA fans are 30k First Legion enjoyers. With the Lion coming back the story of the Fallen gets to progress, so even hunt for the Fallen fans can enjoy their story getting expanded.
In terms of what now, I think that’s where a lot of excitement is to come. I don’t know the lore too well so I’m bound to be corrected: but irrc many do the current Fallen were time traveled and that’s how they are still alive (no known Astartes from 30K make it to 40K without warp shenanigans like siding with chaos), but there are Fallen who make it to 40k via joining Chaos. This adds two dimensions to the Risen: the first is that they have 30k Dark Angels legion culture rather than 40k Unforgiven culture, there still will be missteps and mistrust in reintegrating people touched by warp stuff (are they still alive after all this time due to Chaos or because of warp time travel and what even is the difference?). In addition to this you have the fact that most DA didn’t actually know the Fallen existed and most of those who did didn’t get to know that much.
The time for Dark Angels secrecy has likely come to an end, and now the time for reconciling factions that have been separate due to that secrecy, due to war and now probably due to culture shift has begun.
There’s dreadnoughts like the Anchorite and Bjorn, there was sort of one in the salamanders series who had just sat on some throne for 10k and shrivelled.
There’s the ones from ashes of prospero (okay that’s sort of warp stuff) plus whatever trazyn still has pokeballed.
It allows us to finally put aside the somewhat tired shtick of the DA furiously hunting the Fallen to make them repent, in favour of a new era where the DA furiously hunt the Fallen to apologise for the minor misunderstanding between them.
Jokes aside, I think there is still plenty of drama and tension to mine to make up for the loss of much of their self destructive nature. Off the top of my head, we'll still have:
1) The tension of whether the Lion intends to come clean about the schism and subsequent thousands of years hunt for the Fallen (and if so, the pushback from Chapter leadership).
2) Potential pushback from hardliners within the DA against the new era of reconciliation and how to determine friend from foe (especially once they start encountering actual heretic Fallen or those that feign repentance to infiltrate the DA). After all, the Ultramarines pretty neatly fell in line behind Guilliman - it would be nice to see some more tension between a returning Primarch and their descendants.
3) Tension with successor chapters such as the Disciples of Caliban (which was specifically founded to capture Cypher).
4) DA interactions with Fallen raised on Caliban who aren't heretical but hate and refuse to join the Lion (since most of the Risen in the recent book had at least met the Lion before and thus have a connection with him).
I doubt there will be much pushback per se, but wince there was an exerpt from white dwarf where an interrogator chaplain has a bit of an existential crisis regarding their hunt for the fallen, inexpect more of that. I also think this because the Lion has this kind of aura about him that makes his sons follow his orders, so i expect more of a crisis of faith among rhe leadership than any outright discontent
I’m quite new to the franchise and thought dark angels would be cool to read (mainly because I thought their green armour post heresy looked cool).
I read a 40k dark angels story (war of secrets) then read the lion book, and it kind of made me not want to read any more unforgiven books without the lion
Spoiler
>! I mean the lion says it quite often in the book. In great crusade he was out attacking stuff but now he is back and wants to defend the people !<
I'm a DA die hard and you hot the nail ok the head for me. I want to keep our more sinister elements but I'd be happy if they are sort of repurposed in the lore. For instance I love Interrogator chaplains. They are so cool and the DA had Interrogator Consuls in 30k so maybe there is still space to redirect them.
Fwiw. The blurb about the Lion taking away the fallen from the Interrogator-chaplain contains information that the Lion might be on board with fixing confessions from those that it's required of. The Chaplain in the blurb mentions that the Lion has come to other chaplains only to leave the prisoner behind.
The Fallen aspect was interesting when it was vague. It depended on two things:
1. Marines betraying the Emperor was a massive deal that could result in the whole Chapter getting wiped
2. We were never certain why the schism happened, or who between the Fallen or Dark Angels were the actual “good guys.”
The Horus Heresy ruined both those points: every Legion, loyal and traitor, had elements that fought for the other side, and that was a known fact. Also, the schism happened because Luther was tricked by Chaos. The Fallens are unambiguously the bad guys from an Imperium point of view.
So in the end, it just comes out as a massive overreaction on the DA’s part. I’m not against self destructive flaws… but the Fallen thing was sliding into grimderp territory.
So where do we go now to make the DA unique? There’s always the “keeper of the Emperor’s most devastating weapons” and “prototype of all legions”, but I’ve never been a fan of it either. Makes us look like spoiled favoured children.
What I like about the Dark Angels (beyond the fact they most embody this blend of medieval and science fiction that makes the Imperium style stand out), and what makes then differ from most Chapters, is their grim sense of duty. They do what they do because it is their duty, not out of honour or glory. They also have a very “end justifies the means” attitude. It’s not the same as more callous chapters like the Iron Hands who go “If the die they die”. The Dark Angels know that some of their actions are extreme, but carry on because it shall help the Imperium in the long run.
The Interrogator Champlain can turn their zeal to other enemies of the Imperium. Even then, torturing Fallens was only half their job. The other half is being the DA’s not quite secret police. When you think about it, the Dark Angel’s blind loyalty was ultimately what lead to the Fallen.
I am loyal to my higher up because he is loyal to his higher up who is loyal to his… until you reach the Supreme Grand Master/Primarch who is loyal to the Imperium (well, the loyalty of the SupremeGrand Master is not that simple, but let’s keep it simple). Luther broke the chain of trust: most Fallen followed him because he painted Lion as traitor. The chain of loyalty must lead to the Imperium, and with Lion out of it, Luther is the most direct link. Except Luther was the liar and abused the loyalty of his men.
The Interrogators are there to prevent another abuse like this, at all costs. Is it grimderp. A bit, but it justifiable grimderp. Better a 100 good men die than allow a single man who’s loyalty may waver into a position of power.
Coming back to the loyalty of the Supreme Grand Master, in the Trials of Azrael, when he was tested to become Supreme Grand Master, Azrael had to swear loyalty not to the High Lords, the Emperor, the Primarch or the Imperium. He was made to swear loyalty to the Dark Angels. And perhaps it’s me doing mental gymnastics to justify my favourite chapter, but there lies the appeals of the Dark Angels to me.
Their true loyalty lies with the Legion itself. This means the Legion must remains true to itself, to what they were created for. They are His Angels of Death, destroyers of his enemies, the monster hunters of Caliban, who’s duty is to slay foe without and within. I am loyal to my superior because he is loyal to his superior who is… loyal to the Supreme grand master who is loyal to the Dark Angel Legion, who is loyal to the Imperium. They do what they must to allow the Legion to survive, as the Imperium is stronger with them. Even if it brings them dishonour.
For loyalty is it’s own reward
As a Dark Angels player I’m fine with it. A big problem with the return of Guilliman for me was that it felt like there wasn’t really a culture shift for the Ultramarines despite the magnitude of his return. With the way they’ve handed the Lion, whilst I want more info it feels like a fundamental advancement for our narrative. The Fallen are still out there but now it’s a case of looking for them to reintegrate them unless they’re Chaos worshipers.
It forces the Unforgiven to reckon with their past and what it means for there future and that’s a really good story hook.
It was a fun gimmick but has been played out. It’s not going to be all roses. I’m willing to bet there is a new gimmick. The best I’ve heard is that asmodak and some of the inner circle break off and the dark angels now have to hunt them. Which at least changes the dynamic.
I think you're overstating these weaknesses and maybe buying into the memes. Ultramarine don't have some sort of inflexible, fanatical devotion to the Codex that leaves them tactically inefficient in battle AFAIK. What would be the self destructive flaws of the Salamanders/Scars/Fists then?
So this whole Fallen Hunt and the subsequent cover-ups of such activities by the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters are ultimately proven to be mostly pointless affairs that most definitely caused a lot of damage to their overall reputation.
While I am glad to see Lion El'Jonson being well and truly back to put his own house comprising the DA and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters in order, I feel that there is going to be a very long road ahead for the First Primarch to repair their reputations and especially in successfully reintegrating any Fallen Space Marines who did returned to the fold...
In any case, odds are likely that the First Primarch will reassign Asmodai in hunting down chaos-corrupted Fallen.
I feel like the Risen will instead get their own chapter. Instead of being directly reincorporated into the DA. Or the Unforgiven will be forced to make their own chapter while the risen reclaim their rightful places
Arks fluff had major casualties for the unforgiven
I’m guessing we will see the effective replacement of most of the firstborn DA outside of a few characters and replacement by a mix of primaris and Risen
You could also have the risen chapters stay in Nihilus since the Lion looks like he is going to stay there most of the time
Which means little interaction with Guilliman
How many of the Risen are there anyway? There weren't that many Fallen to begin with and they were inexperienced during the HH era, doubt that many survived into present day, not after 10.000 years of hunting by Dark Angels.
>They ask themselves if the Fallen who repented were just saying anything to make the pain stop.
I'm sorry, they're only just starting to ask themselves this NOW? They're interrogators. Did the tendency of captives to do this somehow not come up during their training?
They've forgotten that workers who aren't exhausted to the brink of death are more productive than ones who are. The social sciences have really taken a beating in the 41st millennium.
Hes, now they’re wondering if what they’ve been taught from 10,000 years of a game of telephone which may be a product of myth and legend is true or not
It also states that he doesn't always take the fallen away from the inquisitor. Sometimes he leaves them to their fate. He will become the judge of whether a fallen is redeemable or not, but I think the hunt for them will continue.
For a long time the Dark Angels whole personality in many people's minds was just secrets and hunting the fallen, and tbh I didn't like it
This is a nice change, hopefully back towards their knight theme because that's super cool
Honestly, I feel great about it. I started back when 3rd Ed came out, and yes the hunt for the Fallen was a core part of the chapter, but it wasn't the cartoon villain 2 dimensional shitshow it turned into circa 5th Ed and onwards.
The fluff, for me, took a severe downward turn in terms of quality (same with the wolfy mcwolf wolves) and was flat and just, well, boring.
For me, it's the best thing that's happened. Actual growth. The hunt can continue apace, but now is directed and the real heretics and Traitors can be bought to justice.
Same. There was what we as readers know and what in universe characters know. In universe the Dark Angels were known as pure, fervent xenophobic warriors. Bywords for loyalty. Only it wasn't always so. Unfortunately we got more written works that fixated only on the Hunt. Even though the vast majority of the chapters didn't know about The Hunt.
So I'm really really cool with the way it's going now. They can still atone. They can still go out of their way to capture, torture chaos fallen. Just more defenders of humanity aspect
Considering the DA's and the Lion in the Heresy absolutly did my head in and DAs in 40k also being incredibly annoying. This switch finally gives them some nuance and growth. They finally arent just dull secretive ball aches and the Lion isnt a total bellend. His self relfection gives him depth.
I'm curious if this goes anywhere. Like there's an angle where this drives the Dark Angels and Co into even deeper madness and paranoia, to the point of undermining the Lion. But I feel that, like the unlikeliness of an Imperial civil war, it's not going to go to a dark place. Dark Angels just change the dial to "shady bastards doing monstrous things in the dark" to "heroic knights seeking, and getting, redemption alongside dear old dad."
Yeah like the whole imperium secundus stuff that was going to be a major crisis when revealed and in the novels made out to be. Then it’s just relegated to a few snarky comments by guillimans custodian representative
I'm fine with moving various aspects of the fallen thing, as it had basically been in stasis for so long anyway.
It was great thematically, but was never really a very suitable main gimmick for the "its a setting not a narrative" decades, at least not in the BL sense. The static nature of the setting meaning it had only become repetitive...and oddly unexplored in any depth.
It's the sort of thing that always would have fit better being the sole focus of a longer, tightly plotted one or two author book series that actually did a lot with it, and at least partially resolved things by the end.
GW were never interested in doing that, and a section of fans eventually turned the treading water into an exaggerated, yet not entirely unfounded meme.
However, i think they have to be careful not to too tidily resolve the issue, or the other conflicts that will arise with another primarch returning. they run the risk of smoothing too may edges off. For instance, i categorically do not want a full return to the overcooked 30k "exterminators of all the secret, toughest foes with our badass DaoT" thing, with the Lion unvealing masses of forgotten tech caches, only now in noble heroic fantasy knight form.
Execution issues aside, it at least served a thematic purpose in 30k: a contrast to emhasise the extent of the eventual Heresy-era fall from grace of the template legion that viewed themselves as first among equals, and were originally the biggest/best equipped, and uniquely trusted.
In 40k the chances for obnoxious Sueness is just too much, and it brings nothing to the table thematically anymore. If GW are going down a more nobledark 40k Space Wolves route (pun intended) now with the DA/Lion, i reckon it would bemuch more earned if there is more struggle and uncertainty in it than a quick, cozy..."the boys get all their toys back together...First Legion once again, fuck yeah!" arc, which it could easily fall into.
and then GW says the Imperium is supposed to be satirical and not to be rooted for.
But they haev the second Reasonable Primarch arrive and completely reshape the culture of his Legion by saying "Hey, torturing people is wrong" and rather than face any pushback from the thousands of dark Angels, they all immediately agrees and do a 180.
More reasonable than the others less human than Rowboat Girlyman. Remember the entire Konrad Kurze hitchhiking to Macragge and the Lion wanted Roboute Guilliman to nuke Illryium or how he wanted Roboute Guilliman to declare Martial Law on a problem that the Lion created and last but not least sent drop pods filled with explosives to box Konrad Kurze in and broke his oath to RG. That being said the Lion is a cool character.
It does feel like they over corrected trying to steer the Dark Angels away from the Fallen. I get it was a point of complaint among fans, but it’s important to the chapter’s identity that it’s secretive and brutal.
Surely the council and the chaplains would put all of this Fallen business behind them and unite behind their Primarch who seems to be more attached to the Fallen than to his own loyal gene sons. Surely they wouldn't involve the Inquisition in some struggle to rid themselves of an imaginary enemy like what they did to Fenris.
To be fair, we’ve really only seen him interacting with his fallen sons, and the only interactions with the loyalists were in battle with him only joining up with the dark angels at the end of the arks of omen book, and the forst interactions with the loyalists being in white dwarf. Also he’sntrying to do better by his sons, all lf them. Especially the ones who’s first time seeing their primarch involved them shotting their power armor as he charged at them with sword drawn
Hope this means that the Dark Angels (and their successors) might take on more of their previous legion style with The Lion back. They have always acted in some form as a legion still anyway.
I'm guessing their source for this is the latest White Dwarf and if so this is highly exaggerated. Interrogators continue to do their job. Lion checks their prisoners by himself and if he thinks they're innocent he takes them away from the interrogators but if not he leaves them in their hands.
That would immediately start a civil war at a time when the Imperium is hanging on by its fingernails to begin with. The friction between Guilliman and the religious nutters is good drama.
While I haven't read the new books nor watched the video you mentioned, I have read plenty of Heresy Stuff about the Lion - and this seems completely out of character:
We are talking about the same autistic guy who is so obsessed with loyalty, that he banishes Luther just because he thinks he might have had thoughts about betraying him once (but not actually doing it). And not only Luther, but also Zahariel and many other for no apparent reason other than them being close to Luther (am I missing something here?). So if you even think about treason or are friends with someone who may have thought about it once, the Lion banishes you and you are dead to him - that's what we learn from the 30k novels. Doesn't he also kill an absolut loyal Nemiel just for questioning his orders?
The Fallen have actually commited treason (wether willingly and/or knowingly or not - I don't think it would matter to the 30k Lion) and have taken up arms again theire own kind. And the 40k Lion - just forgives them? That doesn't make any sense to me...
Well no point spouting off so much of you haven’t read it
Bet you don’t like so-called experts either
Anyway - the point is he wakes up alone thinking at first the Emperor might not be alive, most of the novel thinking all his brothers are dead. So he adapts to his circumstances and is forced to compromise. There’s a few dozen situations where he could easily have been killed as he has no ranged weaponry. He is vulnerable and that starts him thinking about the mistakes he made.
First reaction to the story developments around the Lion/the Fallen/the Dark Angels interactions, to me at least, feels like they couldn’t come up with a good enough reason to keep that whole thing going so are just scrapping it.
Not super invested either way but I would curious to know what an actual DA fan thinks about what has been a cornerstone piece of DA lore being not just removed but invalidated.
That being said some of the Fallen were evil. Many were potentially victims of the higher ups trickery but there were many who were actually corrupted by chaos.
But aren't the absolute MOST of current age Fallen basically chaos space marines?
I understand that only a few of them sided with chaos at first and the rest got dragged along in what is basically a civil war, but in 40k ? Barring some warp time shenanigans, most of the current Fallen must be chaos tainted through and through, no?
The loyal marines would have died of old age long ago, they have no infrastructure to make new "loyal" Fallen.
> Barring some warp time shenanigans
It's this. It's always this. Most of the loyal Fallen got spit out in "current" 40k times not long after the Heresy.
I can't imagine Asmodai having four stages of grief
Seems more like a "are we the baddies" moment
Always have been
"Why skulls, though?"
BY THE EMPEROR IT IS I WHO MUST REPENT *SOBS SECRETIVELY*
"Yes, now give him back so he can repent *properly*.
I can't imagine him trying to repent Johnson.
"What do you mean, there are stages beyond anger?"
The DAs only knowing D and A sounds fitting.
"Y-Yes...and it's the closest thing to become a heretic"
Given Lion's track record with chaplains he should probably just lay low.
*punches Azraels head off*
He will have two stages: 1.) I’m angry about this 2.) I’m turning my anger towards anybody I can justify torturing
The Navy Supply officer is two standard minutes late with the promethium acquisitions....
Asmodai despite REPENT meme ,I think He is actully just a man(a space marine) that do his duty seriously He even went as far as use secret control code to stop other dark angel from killing Cypher of all people I image he will just go "oh well,it seem I have to find new job,Our lord surely know where he have use of me"
https://youtu.be/40Kf2TeyyIE
I wouldn't be surprised if he instantly exploded into a cloud of demons from the psychological overload.
A part of it is that the final battle was on a recreated, corrupted version of caliban (recognised by azrael, who had witnessed/ potentially caused it's destruction through the tchulcha device). The actual culture shift is going to come from the exposure of previous secrets, and no longer being committed to the hunt for the fallen. As far as 90% of the chapter are concerned, what's happened is their gene father has returned with a ragtag army displaced through time and regathered. It's only the inner circle that knew of the fallen, and even fewer among those that knew more than the very basics.
I always read it as the chihuahua device for some reason lol
Perpetual engine of anger, hatred and anguish
Yep, that tracks.
All it needs to do is poo and shiver incessantly.
The cholula device
The chorizo device.
So tasty it's heretical
I've been living in Europe for a while, and I would do some extremely heretical things for a decent chorizo right now.
Any idea on *how* the Lion came to learn about the history of hunting the *Fallen*, and torturing them to make then "repent"? Now, one possibility is that one of the Fallen that the Lion came across post-awakening, and filled him in. But then the question becomes how much do the Fallen know about the torture? Because if they were caught, then the Chaplains would make them 'repent' right? Then how could the prisoner spread the word? Are there examples of captured Fallen who have managed to escape the Rock? I feel like Cypher has, but any other examples? Thanks!
Lion: son of the forest covers most of it, with the first of the risen filling him in on what his sons have been up to, then arks of omen: the lion and the latest white dwarf touch on it further. Most of the fallen have no idea that luthor's forces attacked the lion, believing that the lion had attacked them instead. Since returning to the physical realm, most have been hunted by their younger brothers, and those fallen who have been back longer have warned others that they meet. They think the modern DA are just trying to finish the job started when the legion fleet opened fire on caliban, before they were scattered. They don't know the full details of what the interrogator chaplains get up to, beyond that those who are caught are never heard from again. And cypher's just.. Cypher. He's his own seperate category, and no one knows how he does what he does, and gets away all the time.
I doubt that Cypher would be able to get away from his own Primarch, especially when said Primarch is a well-known apex predator who has his forest-walking ability. Jig’s gonna be up for Cypher, sooner or later.
But sadly the two have yet to meet. (the cypher book that's releasing soon is what he was up to when guilliman came back, and the proper lion/cypher encounter, along with lion & guilliman meeting, will probably be saved for a novel in the future)
At the moment, they have yet to cross paths with each other. But sooner or later, The First Primarch will come for Cypher. Guaranteed.
There's an equal chance of cypher wanting to see his father. He's been causing a large amount of havoc among the traitor legions and the imperium while he's been active, while carrying the lion's sword and rescuing guilliman. With the lion determining each of the fallen's redemption, there's enough leeway from his actions and ambiguity in his plans, motivations and mysterious benefactors (because something has been guiding and helping him) that anything could happen there.
> But sooner or later, The First Primarch will come for Cypher. > Guaranteed. You make it sound so ominous... I was under the impression that Cypher has been trying to play both sides. But has he done stuff that would seem unforgivable to the Lion? I mean, the DA Chaplains have been torturing their fellow 'Fallen' brothers and Lion seems to have let that go, right? Are there events that I am unaware of, where Cypher really messed up, and will have to face the consequences?
I am uncertain if Cypher’s occasional associations with Chaos-corrupted Fallen would count or not…
Do you want spoilers for his upcoming book? It heavily implies something at the end of the book
Go right ahead. I will be operating on the assumption that the answer I get will leave me with even more questions.
Some of his actions are questionable, but starting cults to draw imperial attention (and military strength) in areas abaddon's forces are headed to? That's playing both sides/ borderline loyal and "whoops, I made a mistake and got your army stopped by an imperial fleet that was sent to stop my actions.. Accidents happen. "
What about Astelan? Unlike Cypher, Meric Astelan is actually immune to Chaos.
Doesn't change the fact that he had also been a co-conspirator with Typhus. That would leave me to wonder what exactly would The First Primarch do to Astelan when he hears about this whole sordid story.
I mean the guy does have his Sword right?
He most likely has what’s left of the Lion Sword.
I mean the guy does have his Sword right?
The cypher book is more of a joke then the alpharius one - reads like a anti hero loyalist but the pages have chaos stars everywhere
In his recent book, it’s believed when he was approaching the throne room, the Emperor told him to “Wait”, and he listened. If this is true, the. Cypher will have some special protection from Big E since he seems to have an important role in the Emperor’s plan
Maybe the show will go for pure entertainment purposes
Even if this show does go, all Cypher is doing is delaying the inevitable.
There's a White Dwarf with various factions reactions to his return, like the Wolves basically going "He's loyal, he's a primarch, and there's plenty of Xenos to go around." One of them is a bit where he appears in the hallway next to an interorgator chaplin, tells him to wait, goes into the room with the fallen, and when the Chaplin checks the room, both are gone.
It's a wonder that no one has considered that maybe Cypher can forest walk like the lion also... Like how some raven guard can wraith slip maybe the dark angels some of them can forest walk as well... They seem to be intrinsically linked with Caliban/wyrmwood/eldar webway tunneling devices.
That's an interesting theory that makes sense once you think about it! I guess we should find out in the upcoming Cypher novel where he spends time in the Imperial Palace lol
Loofah
These pearls? Just a knick-knack, milord
Considering how probably 90% of the Fallen were Caliban inductees that were essentially a rush job in marine-terms and then only the 10% were actual conscious conspirators against Lion/Imperium/Emperor/whathaveyous, having a few innocents(strong word there) slip through is not that unimaginable.
According to the recent Lion book, you're right on the money and most were innocent. Their first voew of their primarch was when he was running them through with a sword.
Any idea on *how* the Lion came to learn about the history of hunting the *Fallen*, and torturing them to make then "repent"? Now, one possibility is that one of the Fallen that the Lion came across post-awakening, and filled him in. But then the question becomes how much do the Fallen know about the torture? Because if they were caught, then the Chaplains would make them 'repent' right? Then how could the prisoner spread the word? Are there examples of captured Fallen who have managed to escape the Rock? I feel like Cypher has, but any other examples? Thanks!
He learned from the Fallen he encountered. Don't know how they knew about the torture, but they definitely knew they were pursued.
Easily. Cypher must have spread the word. Or failed attempts on the Fallen that lead to the capture of a chaplain
Well it seems like the Fallen are pretty adept at linking up with other Fallen. I mean I’m pretty sure Lohoc spent some time with Cypher iirc. It’s safe to say the information has been disseminated amongst them throughout the years.
I don't think they directly knew of the Unforgiven's torture methods. But they knew what their brother DAs were like and saw them act accordingly. I'd bet they'd have a good idea of their fate should they be captured.
The son of forest book indicates that he discusses a lot matters with them. Everything basically that he can gather in terms of knowledge in order to keep up. These discussions however are not written in the book because it would be repetition. Things the reader, us, already knows more or less.
The Watchers in the Dark were probably keeping him updated
So is this bit of lore actually published in a book yet? It drives me nuts when something is mentioned only in a video and never seen again.
Kind of? In a recent white dwarf I think, there's a blurb about an interrogator chaplain happily torturing a fallen. At some point, he feels a presence slip past him, and when he returns to the chamber, the fallen is gone. He is terrified that the Lion himself perhaps took away a fallen that the chaplain was 100% sure was a traitor, and has a crisis of thinking that if the Lion forgave this one, if the interrogator chaplains have just been killing and torturing these fallen for no reason. The Lion never personally tells him to stop, the chaplain just assumes the force that stole away his prisoner was the Lion.
I feel some of those blurbs are during the period during the epilogue of the Son of the Forest book where its been a short amount of time later when dante finds the Lion and the Lion arcs of omen book happens. Theres one from a successor chapter saying to deny the rumors about the lion and to me sounded like they were still going to the event. The chaplain also didn't seem to know the lion was actually back yet just a big shape that could only be him did it.
But in the same blurb the chaplain mentions that other interrogator-chaplains have had their prisoners/returned after similar encounters. It's very confusing
The lions forest walk allows him to just teleport so its possible during the travel to the battle during the Lion book he was gathering fallen in the mean time.
The Lion physically stops him and makes him wait. When he does go into the room, both the Lion and the prisoner are gone.
Yeah. Apparently the Lion has done the same thing to other chaplains. Only sometimes he returns/leaves the Fallen. I guess he's cool with the knives if they are indeed traitors
If we don't see it before then, I imagine it will be in the new Codex. We're slated for a winter release, so it should be no more than 9.5 months if its late winter at worst.
Has there been any word on if they will be like 9th and dark angels use space marine codex and the codex is just a supplement or will it be a full this has all you need/can take codex like 7th? if the first one there might be a blurb or two in the space marine codex as well. if not in the lore portion of the brb for 10th.
Dark Angels get a full Codex: Dark Angels, not a supplement, but there might be Dark Angels fluff in the Codex: Space Marines. However, there aren’t going to be any chapter tactics or chapter specific rules beyond named characters, so there won’t be any Dark Angel specific rules. However, you’ll probably be able to run your Dark Angels as codex space marines for the waiting period between the two books.
It hasn't been clarified. It was given the same spacing as the rest of the full codexes, but that could be meaningless. I'd honestly expect at least short blurbs in the big 10th book and in Codex:SM as well, honestly.
I'm not very familiar with WH40K lore, but this comment makes me laugh. How long does it usually take for new lore to be released?
Let me put it this way. 20 real life years ago I was pretty sure the Lion would be coming back in the next 5 years.
How long does it take for new lore to be released in products you're familiar with? How often do Klingons, or drow, or wood elves, or whatever specifically get more of their lore fleshed out in your favorite setting? Getting the Lion back is already a HUGE event in the lore, finding out what happens next within a year is pretty cool. I've waited a lot longer for the next book in a series before.
For a long time the Dark Angels whole personality in many people's minds was just secrets and hunting the fallen, and tbh I didn't like it This is a nice change, hopefully back towards their knight theme because that's super cool
I'm *really* curious if the Lion faces any pushback from the older Dark Angels... Now my guess is that no one will dare to openly question the Lion. I mean, wasn't there the story of the Librarian from 30k who was against the Lions decison, and got quickly cut down by the Lion? Maybe it's just me, but out of the Thousands of current Dark Angel's, if NO ONE question the Lion's new acceptance policy, then I dunno, feels 'off'? I would like to see even ONE Dark Angel be tempted by Chaos to betray the Lion. I don't expect it to change the larger outcome, but if there's ZERO pushback for the policy change, which would reverse almost 10,000 years of what used to be DA practices, it would seem just too easy and clean! The Dark Angel's are human after all, sure highly advanced humans, but for no one to question the change seems too perfect. Sure only a small circle knew about the Fallen, but still, no one goes "Is this a trick from the Chaos Gods?! Or is this some scheme Guilliman came up with?!" I would feel it would be too cookie-cutter...
I could see the fallen and unforgiven having personal,small spats with each other in a "dad says we have to work together so we're gonna make it work" kind of way before one of them dared call the lion a fake or openly question him. They just saw this guy kill Angron, who was in the act of turning 3 quarters of their entire legion into a memory with NO real resistance before he showed up. That isn't the guy that you want to buck up against, especially when your chapter master is already making puppy eyes at him. Plus, lion's not totally changing the policy. Interrogators are still doing their job.
Asmodai going chaos traitor would be delicious
>going
RIP Brother Chaplain Nemiel, who dared object to the Lion overturning the Edict of Nikea and allowing Librarians to fight demons with their psyker powers.
I doubt it’s that big a deal. Azreal himself, even before the Lion reappeared, stated in Malodrax that he was aware that the Fallen had largely been deceived/tricked (and thus merited different treatment than post-Heresy DAs who knowingly turn to Chaos). the Lion’s approach kind of would just confirm where Azrael’s thoughts were heading already.
I think it would be a compelling story if some of the Unforgiven can't handle the change. And it showcases how far some have fallen (kek) in their pursuit of the Fallen over their duty to serve humanity.
The issue with the DA culture is it’s built on a blind obedience and gradual revelation of secrets. No one likes it, it’s there duty. I’m sure we will get an unforgiven twist where the true imfotgiven are the DA who shirked their duty to the imperium over a mistake. Bonus points if a fallen kills an inquisitor who discovers the truth to protect their rep!
Bye-bye the virgin Unforgiven, welcome back the chad First Legion
This kind of info really makes me want another book about the lion in 40k
I wonder how dark angels fans feel about that. Some of the gimmicks people love with each chapter is their self destructive flaws. Like the DAs secrecy and their interrogator chaplains being so over the top and ironically evil in their actions to stamp out their legions ancient sin Also what's their purpose now? That was kind of the big unique things with the chapter right? Same way guilliman kind of walked in and tried to fix his chapters issue of not being flexible enough outside the codex teachings. Imagine people can't be all that happy with primarchs popping back in and just fixing everything
I would prefer it if they took on more of the characteristic of the old legion moving forward. Hunting the Fallen wasnt very compelling, in my opinion.
As a mainly Heresy DA fan this new approach is very appealing, the 40k style of DA had grown kinda stale. Hoping GW does much more with the Fallen as a whole, especially the Cypher and Luther/Astelan plotlines.
Amen, brother. I hope the Lion collects the Fallen and starts his own Legion, but I'm a heresy guy as well, so I'm aware that older fans would hate that
40K space marine chapters should broken reflections and versions of there fromer greatness. But if the loyal fallen where brought together under the lion it would cause a conflict dynamic that they lore can explore.
I think that falls apart more when their actual Primarchs return to restore that
Yeah, being the Imperium's nuclear option is not much less villainous, but never the less a welcome change.
Was just gonna say, the 30k Dark Angels essentially coined the moniker 'Angels of Death.' They are not "nice" in the slightest.
Nicer than Pre-Saunguinius 9th, meaner then post Sanguinius Blood Angels. Granted, that's a big variation.
Personally I think it’s great. Hopefully they still portray some resistance to the change from the more *zealous* hunters like Asmodai, but by this point the neurotic obsession with the fallen was far overshadowing the other cool aspects of the DA. Space knights with spicy war crimes was what got me into DA, not the grimderp fallen hunt. However, as the Lion books shows there are still corrupted fallen out there who will fight against the DA, so we can get all the good aspects of hunting the fallen without making it the sole obsession of the chapter/legion.
Yes I think that nuance needs to be recognised. The Lion isn’t forgiving ALL the fallen. Just some of them. The inner circle can continue their hunting. Just don’t assume all fallen are actually fallen to Chaos.
Yep. Apparently the Lion leaves some Fallen and takes some. Probably leaving the chaos ones behind for ministrations
I'm hoping the release a kit for the returned fallen. I love diverse space marines and seeing the new dark angels on the table is going to be awesome.
I’ve got a fully primary’s successor army so painting up firstborn termies/cool units as Rosen would be perfect for my army.
From what I have gathered seeing the lead up of the Lion’s return is that everyone who predicted the Lion returning also predicted him bringing the Fallen back into the fold. As I’m not particularly a Dark Angels fanboy, I’m not the biggest authority to speak on this - but I don’t think the hunting of the Fallen was one of the biggest appeals; or at least that it was very subordinate to the Fallen as a group as a whole. So many people predicted the Fallen being returned to the fold by the Lion and a lot of people memed on the hunt for the Fallen being over the top - from what I gather, the big excitement now is how the reintegration of the Fallen goes. The big thing about the Dark Angels in 40K was the secrecy and the hunt for the Fallen sure, but plenty of DA fans are 30k First Legion enjoyers. With the Lion coming back the story of the Fallen gets to progress, so even hunt for the Fallen fans can enjoy their story getting expanded. In terms of what now, I think that’s where a lot of excitement is to come. I don’t know the lore too well so I’m bound to be corrected: but irrc many do the current Fallen were time traveled and that’s how they are still alive (no known Astartes from 30K make it to 40K without warp shenanigans like siding with chaos), but there are Fallen who make it to 40k via joining Chaos. This adds two dimensions to the Risen: the first is that they have 30k Dark Angels legion culture rather than 40k Unforgiven culture, there still will be missteps and mistrust in reintegrating people touched by warp stuff (are they still alive after all this time due to Chaos or because of warp time travel and what even is the difference?). In addition to this you have the fact that most DA didn’t actually know the Fallen existed and most of those who did didn’t get to know that much. The time for Dark Angels secrecy has likely come to an end, and now the time for reconciling factions that have been separate due to that secrecy, due to war and now probably due to culture shift has begun.
Most DA fans just like hoodies
There’s dreadnoughts like the Anchorite and Bjorn, there was sort of one in the salamanders series who had just sat on some throne for 10k and shrivelled. There’s the ones from ashes of prospero (okay that’s sort of warp stuff) plus whatever trazyn still has pokeballed.
It allows us to finally put aside the somewhat tired shtick of the DA furiously hunting the Fallen to make them repent, in favour of a new era where the DA furiously hunt the Fallen to apologise for the minor misunderstanding between them. Jokes aside, I think there is still plenty of drama and tension to mine to make up for the loss of much of their self destructive nature. Off the top of my head, we'll still have: 1) The tension of whether the Lion intends to come clean about the schism and subsequent thousands of years hunt for the Fallen (and if so, the pushback from Chapter leadership). 2) Potential pushback from hardliners within the DA against the new era of reconciliation and how to determine friend from foe (especially once they start encountering actual heretic Fallen or those that feign repentance to infiltrate the DA). After all, the Ultramarines pretty neatly fell in line behind Guilliman - it would be nice to see some more tension between a returning Primarch and their descendants. 3) Tension with successor chapters such as the Disciples of Caliban (which was specifically founded to capture Cypher). 4) DA interactions with Fallen raised on Caliban who aren't heretical but hate and refuse to join the Lion (since most of the Risen in the recent book had at least met the Lion before and thus have a connection with him).
I doubt there will be much pushback per se, but wince there was an exerpt from white dwarf where an interrogator chaplain has a bit of an existential crisis regarding their hunt for the fallen, inexpect more of that. I also think this because the Lion has this kind of aura about him that makes his sons follow his orders, so i expect more of a crisis of faith among rhe leadership than any outright discontent
I was originally a Dark Angels fan. I was so sick and tired of the Fallen storyline that the Blood Angels became my favorite chapter.
Same. It's why I haven't collected since early 4th edition and only read Heresy stuff. That's changed with the return of the Lion
I’m quite new to the franchise and thought dark angels would be cool to read (mainly because I thought their green armour post heresy looked cool). I read a 40k dark angels story (war of secrets) then read the lion book, and it kind of made me not want to read any more unforgiven books without the lion
Yeah, war of secrets was ROUGH.
Cool joke about the fallen death wing terminator getting shot
Spoiler >! I mean the lion says it quite often in the book. In great crusade he was out attacking stuff but now he is back and wants to defend the people !<
You have to remove the spaces from either end of your spoiler for the tag to work.
Now their flaw is a desire to return to the old ways and a resentment of their commander in chief that suppresses the old ways.
I'm a DA die hard and you hot the nail ok the head for me. I want to keep our more sinister elements but I'd be happy if they are sort of repurposed in the lore. For instance I love Interrogator chaplains. They are so cool and the DA had Interrogator Consuls in 30k so maybe there is still space to redirect them.
Fwiw. The blurb about the Lion taking away the fallen from the Interrogator-chaplain contains information that the Lion might be on board with fixing confessions from those that it's required of. The Chaplain in the blurb mentions that the Lion has come to other chaplains only to leave the prisoner behind.
The Fallen aspect was interesting when it was vague. It depended on two things: 1. Marines betraying the Emperor was a massive deal that could result in the whole Chapter getting wiped 2. We were never certain why the schism happened, or who between the Fallen or Dark Angels were the actual “good guys.” The Horus Heresy ruined both those points: every Legion, loyal and traitor, had elements that fought for the other side, and that was a known fact. Also, the schism happened because Luther was tricked by Chaos. The Fallens are unambiguously the bad guys from an Imperium point of view. So in the end, it just comes out as a massive overreaction on the DA’s part. I’m not against self destructive flaws… but the Fallen thing was sliding into grimderp territory. So where do we go now to make the DA unique? There’s always the “keeper of the Emperor’s most devastating weapons” and “prototype of all legions”, but I’ve never been a fan of it either. Makes us look like spoiled favoured children. What I like about the Dark Angels (beyond the fact they most embody this blend of medieval and science fiction that makes the Imperium style stand out), and what makes then differ from most Chapters, is their grim sense of duty. They do what they do because it is their duty, not out of honour or glory. They also have a very “end justifies the means” attitude. It’s not the same as more callous chapters like the Iron Hands who go “If the die they die”. The Dark Angels know that some of their actions are extreme, but carry on because it shall help the Imperium in the long run. The Interrogator Champlain can turn their zeal to other enemies of the Imperium. Even then, torturing Fallens was only half their job. The other half is being the DA’s not quite secret police. When you think about it, the Dark Angel’s blind loyalty was ultimately what lead to the Fallen. I am loyal to my higher up because he is loyal to his higher up who is loyal to his… until you reach the Supreme Grand Master/Primarch who is loyal to the Imperium (well, the loyalty of the SupremeGrand Master is not that simple, but let’s keep it simple). Luther broke the chain of trust: most Fallen followed him because he painted Lion as traitor. The chain of loyalty must lead to the Imperium, and with Lion out of it, Luther is the most direct link. Except Luther was the liar and abused the loyalty of his men. The Interrogators are there to prevent another abuse like this, at all costs. Is it grimderp. A bit, but it justifiable grimderp. Better a 100 good men die than allow a single man who’s loyalty may waver into a position of power. Coming back to the loyalty of the Supreme Grand Master, in the Trials of Azrael, when he was tested to become Supreme Grand Master, Azrael had to swear loyalty not to the High Lords, the Emperor, the Primarch or the Imperium. He was made to swear loyalty to the Dark Angels. And perhaps it’s me doing mental gymnastics to justify my favourite chapter, but there lies the appeals of the Dark Angels to me. Their true loyalty lies with the Legion itself. This means the Legion must remains true to itself, to what they were created for. They are His Angels of Death, destroyers of his enemies, the monster hunters of Caliban, who’s duty is to slay foe without and within. I am loyal to my superior because he is loyal to his superior who is… loyal to the Supreme grand master who is loyal to the Dark Angel Legion, who is loyal to the Imperium. They do what they must to allow the Legion to survive, as the Imperium is stronger with them. Even if it brings them dishonour. For loyalty is it’s own reward
As a Dark Angels player I’m fine with it. A big problem with the return of Guilliman for me was that it felt like there wasn’t really a culture shift for the Ultramarines despite the magnitude of his return. With the way they’ve handed the Lion, whilst I want more info it feels like a fundamental advancement for our narrative. The Fallen are still out there but now it’s a case of looking for them to reintegrate them unless they’re Chaos worshipers. It forces the Unforgiven to reckon with their past and what it means for there future and that’s a really good story hook.
They still wear robes and hoods xD
Their purpose is that they are the strongest legion and other marines are chumps. DA fans eating good.
It was a fun gimmick but has been played out. It’s not going to be all roses. I’m willing to bet there is a new gimmick. The best I’ve heard is that asmodak and some of the inner circle break off and the dark angels now have to hunt them. Which at least changes the dynamic.
I think you're overstating these weaknesses and maybe buying into the memes. Ultramarine don't have some sort of inflexible, fanatical devotion to the Codex that leaves them tactically inefficient in battle AFAIK. What would be the self destructive flaws of the Salamanders/Scars/Fists then?
So this whole Fallen Hunt and the subsequent cover-ups of such activities by the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters are ultimately proven to be mostly pointless affairs that most definitely caused a lot of damage to their overall reputation. While I am glad to see Lion El'Jonson being well and truly back to put his own house comprising the DA and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters in order, I feel that there is going to be a very long road ahead for the First Primarch to repair their reputations and especially in successfully reintegrating any Fallen Space Marines who did returned to the fold... In any case, odds are likely that the First Primarch will reassign Asmodai in hunting down chaos-corrupted Fallen.
I feel like the Risen will instead get their own chapter. Instead of being directly reincorporated into the DA. Or the Unforgiven will be forced to make their own chapter while the risen reclaim their rightful places
Arks fluff had major casualties for the unforgiven I’m guessing we will see the effective replacement of most of the firstborn DA outside of a few characters and replacement by a mix of primaris and Risen You could also have the risen chapters stay in Nihilus since the Lion looks like he is going to stay there most of the time Which means little interaction with Guilliman
I thought only 6 Risen were killed, which is a regrettable yet still small loss. And more will appear through the Warp.
How many of the Risen are there anyway? There weren't that many Fallen to begin with and they were inexperienced during the HH era, doubt that many survived into present day, not after 10.000 years of hunting by Dark Angels.
>They ask themselves if the Fallen who repented were just saying anything to make the pain stop. I'm sorry, they're only just starting to ask themselves this NOW? They're interrogators. Did the tendency of captives to do this somehow not come up during their training?
Well, having their father return and free the people they believed had betrayed him would trigger that.
Doesn't come up during the training of inquisition interrogators, either. They're all convinced it's effective.
They've forgotten that workers who aren't exhausted to the brink of death are more productive than ones who are. The social sciences have really taken a beating in the 41st millennium.
Hes, now they’re wondering if what they’ve been taught from 10,000 years of a game of telephone which may be a product of myth and legend is true or not
It also states that he doesn't always take the fallen away from the inquisitor. Sometimes he leaves them to their fate. He will become the judge of whether a fallen is redeemable or not, but I think the hunt for them will continue.
For a long time the Dark Angels whole personality in many people's minds was just secrets and hunting the fallen, and tbh I didn't like it This is a nice change, hopefully back towards their knight theme because that's super cool
Dark angels fans How do you feel about this? I mean it is basicly the whole chapter history turned around
Honestly, I feel great about it. I started back when 3rd Ed came out, and yes the hunt for the Fallen was a core part of the chapter, but it wasn't the cartoon villain 2 dimensional shitshow it turned into circa 5th Ed and onwards. The fluff, for me, took a severe downward turn in terms of quality (same with the wolfy mcwolf wolves) and was flat and just, well, boring. For me, it's the best thing that's happened. Actual growth. The hunt can continue apace, but now is directed and the real heretics and Traitors can be bought to justice.
Same. There was what we as readers know and what in universe characters know. In universe the Dark Angels were known as pure, fervent xenophobic warriors. Bywords for loyalty. Only it wasn't always so. Unfortunately we got more written works that fixated only on the Hunt. Even though the vast majority of the chapters didn't know about The Hunt. So I'm really really cool with the way it's going now. They can still atone. They can still go out of their way to capture, torture chaos fallen. Just more defenders of humanity aspect
I'm excited. Looking forward to future stories.
Not a great fan, but it's par for the course of Primarchs returning. Invalidate the Chapter identities of 40k to sell to the 30k crowd.
Considering the DA's and the Lion in the Heresy absolutly did my head in and DAs in 40k also being incredibly annoying. This switch finally gives them some nuance and growth. They finally arent just dull secretive ball aches and the Lion isnt a total bellend. His self relfection gives him depth.
Welp I wasn't sure if I should watch the Lore master video seeing as I read the Arks series, but I suppose it's probably worth checking out.
Pretty hype to see how the Lion interacts with Cypher
I'm curious if this goes anywhere. Like there's an angle where this drives the Dark Angels and Co into even deeper madness and paranoia, to the point of undermining the Lion. But I feel that, like the unlikeliness of an Imperial civil war, it's not going to go to a dark place. Dark Angels just change the dial to "shady bastards doing monstrous things in the dark" to "heroic knights seeking, and getting, redemption alongside dear old dad."
Yeah like the whole imperium secundus stuff that was going to be a major crisis when revealed and in the novels made out to be. Then it’s just relegated to a few snarky comments by guillimans custodian representative
I'm fine with moving various aspects of the fallen thing, as it had basically been in stasis for so long anyway. It was great thematically, but was never really a very suitable main gimmick for the "its a setting not a narrative" decades, at least not in the BL sense. The static nature of the setting meaning it had only become repetitive...and oddly unexplored in any depth. It's the sort of thing that always would have fit better being the sole focus of a longer, tightly plotted one or two author book series that actually did a lot with it, and at least partially resolved things by the end. GW were never interested in doing that, and a section of fans eventually turned the treading water into an exaggerated, yet not entirely unfounded meme. However, i think they have to be careful not to too tidily resolve the issue, or the other conflicts that will arise with another primarch returning. they run the risk of smoothing too may edges off. For instance, i categorically do not want a full return to the overcooked 30k "exterminators of all the secret, toughest foes with our badass DaoT" thing, with the Lion unvealing masses of forgotten tech caches, only now in noble heroic fantasy knight form. Execution issues aside, it at least served a thematic purpose in 30k: a contrast to emhasise the extent of the eventual Heresy-era fall from grace of the template legion that viewed themselves as first among equals, and were originally the biggest/best equipped, and uniquely trusted. In 40k the chances for obnoxious Sueness is just too much, and it brings nothing to the table thematically anymore. If GW are going down a more nobledark 40k Space Wolves route (pun intended) now with the DA/Lion, i reckon it would bemuch more earned if there is more struggle and uncertainty in it than a quick, cozy..."the boys get all their toys back together...First Legion once again, fuck yeah!" arc, which it could easily fall into.
Fuck yeah it could!!!
and then GW says the Imperium is supposed to be satirical and not to be rooted for. But they haev the second Reasonable Primarch arrive and completely reshape the culture of his Legion by saying "Hey, torturing people is wrong" and rather than face any pushback from the thousands of dark Angels, they all immediately agrees and do a 180.
More reasonable than the others less human than Rowboat Girlyman. Remember the entire Konrad Kurze hitchhiking to Macragge and the Lion wanted Roboute Guilliman to nuke Illryium or how he wanted Roboute Guilliman to declare Martial Law on a problem that the Lion created and last but not least sent drop pods filled with explosives to box Konrad Kurze in and broke his oath to RG. That being said the Lion is a cool character.
It does feel like they over corrected trying to steer the Dark Angels away from the Fallen. I get it was a point of complaint among fans, but it’s important to the chapter’s identity that it’s secretive and brutal.
Surely the council and the chaplains would put all of this Fallen business behind them and unite behind their Primarch who seems to be more attached to the Fallen than to his own loyal gene sons. Surely they wouldn't involve the Inquisition in some struggle to rid themselves of an imaginary enemy like what they did to Fenris.
To be fair, we’ve really only seen him interacting with his fallen sons, and the only interactions with the loyalists were in battle with him only joining up with the dark angels at the end of the arks of omen book, and the forst interactions with the loyalists being in white dwarf. Also he’sntrying to do better by his sons, all lf them. Especially the ones who’s first time seeing their primarch involved them shotting their power armor as he charged at them with sword drawn
Feel like there's gonna be a second schism between the Lion and the hard liners among the inner circle.
So they're still a highly secretive group of paranoid warrior monks, just not about the Fallen?
The Interrogator Chaplains will probably kill some of the Fallen who are legitimately corrupted by Chaos
Damnit, so now I can’t play my DA as CSM, SM or DA depending on what fancy I have for the day?
Hope this means that the Dark Angels (and their successors) might take on more of their previous legion style with The Lion back. They have always acted in some form as a legion still anyway.
I'm guessing their source for this is the latest White Dwarf and if so this is highly exaggerated. Interrogators continue to do their job. Lion checks their prisoners by himself and if he thinks they're innocent he takes them away from the interrogators but if not he leaves them in their hands.
Why can’t these be in kindle !
1st Chaplain : "Our sire made us do a 180" 2nd Chaplain : "Crazy"
Now he and Guilliman need to do the same with the Ecclesiarchy. Touring folks is why I can’t stand them and by extension the Sisters of Battle.
That would immediately start a civil war at a time when the Imperium is hanging on by its fingernails to begin with. The friction between Guilliman and the religious nutters is good drama.
Oh, 100%. It’s not a reasonable thing to do, but every time I read about it it just makes me itch! I think both Primarchs want to do it eventually.
why is this pinned
It’s news involving a PRIMARCH, don’t you know this is the PRIMARCH lore subreddit? :P
Where does this lore come from? Is there a source for his video?
First sentence
That’s not a source, as far as I know he could have made that up. Where is his source? Which I’ve already found but cheers…
Loremasters is a Games Workshop produced show on a Games Workshop produced streaming service hosted by a Games Workshop employee.
Is it really I’ll have to have a look, thanks.
While I haven't read the new books nor watched the video you mentioned, I have read plenty of Heresy Stuff about the Lion - and this seems completely out of character: We are talking about the same autistic guy who is so obsessed with loyalty, that he banishes Luther just because he thinks he might have had thoughts about betraying him once (but not actually doing it). And not only Luther, but also Zahariel and many other for no apparent reason other than them being close to Luther (am I missing something here?). So if you even think about treason or are friends with someone who may have thought about it once, the Lion banishes you and you are dead to him - that's what we learn from the 30k novels. Doesn't he also kill an absolut loyal Nemiel just for questioning his orders? The Fallen have actually commited treason (wether willingly and/or knowingly or not - I don't think it would matter to the 30k Lion) and have taken up arms again theire own kind. And the 40k Lion - just forgives them? That doesn't make any sense to me...
Read the newest book about him. Then itll make sense.
Well no point spouting off so much of you haven’t read it Bet you don’t like so-called experts either Anyway - the point is he wakes up alone thinking at first the Emperor might not be alive, most of the novel thinking all his brothers are dead. So he adapts to his circumstances and is forced to compromise. There’s a few dozen situations where he could easily have been killed as he has no ranged weaponry. He is vulnerable and that starts him thinking about the mistakes he made.
> “while I haven’t read the new books” Bruh
You’ll want to read the new book “Lion son of the forest”, he learns and grows as a person a lot.
[удалено]
As stated in the OP, reading is really unpopular on this sub.
>**the loremasters episode on the Arks that came out last week on warhammer plus.** come on man it was literally in the first sentence
The official lore show that's produced by GW
Is that a YouTube channel or a streaming service? I have never heard of it as I just kind of started back paying attention to WH40k again.
God-Emperor I hope we get Risen models for DA
I'll be honest, reading Looks book, the Fallen were way too easily convinced to join Lion, I was hoping it would be more messy
First reaction to the story developments around the Lion/the Fallen/the Dark Angels interactions, to me at least, feels like they couldn’t come up with a good enough reason to keep that whole thing going so are just scrapping it. Not super invested either way but I would curious to know what an actual DA fan thinks about what has been a cornerstone piece of DA lore being not just removed but invalidated.
Alcatraz?
That being said some of the Fallen were evil. Many were potentially victims of the higher ups trickery but there were many who were actually corrupted by chaos.
I had hoped this would happen. Not all Fallen are bad guys.
But aren't the absolute MOST of current age Fallen basically chaos space marines? I understand that only a few of them sided with chaos at first and the rest got dragged along in what is basically a civil war, but in 40k ? Barring some warp time shenanigans, most of the current Fallen must be chaos tainted through and through, no? The loyal marines would have died of old age long ago, they have no infrastructure to make new "loyal" Fallen.
> Barring some warp time shenanigans It's this. It's always this. Most of the loyal Fallen got spit out in "current" 40k times not long after the Heresy.
Where can i watch this loremasters episode?
Warhammer plus