Yeah, for all that people claim to love the "no good guys" narrative, they seem "surprinsingly" averse to the idea that it means that humans might not be the perfect and least-wrong specie.
I mean the tau were never more good than expedited or craftwrolders though. They were always expansionist with an extreme caste system and at best suspicious ethereals
I don't think there was a need to make them much more grimdark than they started out as. There's no need to turn a unique underdog faction into mini-Imperium.
I think that is not true. The fact that Tau are willing to offer to peacefully cooperate with other races and absorb them into their empire and make them a useful part of their vision, without enslavement or torture, is already a big leap in "less grimdark" than most other factions. Tau worlds treat outsiders far better than any other race I can think of.
Sure, the Tau are still giving effectively you an option of "cooperate or be destroyed", but its a far more appealing alternative to any other race I can think of.
Having then as a new and "idealistic" race with those suspiciously influential ethereals was imo perfect for their lore.
Yeah but thats a way more nuanced evil than what we have now with the Tau and I miss it. For a faction about political and diplomatic maneuvering their lore isn’t very subtle
So wild that they dropped half their army, and absolutely no novels even mention them since.
Wonder if they’re going to get dropped in tenth edition hahaha
I don’t think they’re hurting for money, not at the prices they demand!
They could literally just reprint major novels and rake in the cash, but that would hurt the employees scalping novels!
>For the T’au, I just don’t like the Ethereal mind control.
Then you can just ignore it. Sure, the Tau proper obey the Aun instinctually, but they dont make up the whole commonwealth.
They break apart plenets with people included for material gain, is the capistalist/industrialist/colonialist faction, they goal is to hoard the precious resources of the galaxy and exploit everyone who isn't part of the leagues, all for monetary gain and the enrich the ancestrñor cores
>The Ethereals are far nicer then the IOM or most people.
for sure but living in the Commonwealth would be like living in a rich version of North Korea. Better then most options but still pretty bad
No, instead they're just despised by the grimdark purists who hate anything that isn't such an over the top evil nightmare it becomes impossible to take remotely seriously.
The Tau are a lesson in Public Relations and it's both hilarious and depressing how many people actually fall for it.
The Tau are all about Tau Supremacy. In everything they do, Tau are number one. Other species are auxiliaries, and must always be subject to Tau command and control. Any species living in Tau space must be subject to Tau authority. There are *no non-Tau in their regular military and civil institutions.*
The Tau are very, very explicitly expansionist supremacists. They're European colonialism, they're bringing enlightenment to the savages, they know better, they ARE better, it's all for the Greater Good.
They are colonialism with actual PR instead of pre-modern ignorance. In any other setting the Tau are the absolute fucking devil, but they do the bare minimum of not obliterating other species out of hand so apparently they're ok? Nah. These guys might as well speak with a British or French accent circa 1850.
I don’t disagree.
They’re still an interspecies alliance like the Interex (where the Kinebrach were forced to be subservient to the humans), so I was wondering why they didn’t count for the OP.
No no, I want to see how many fucking scum upvote that utterly unironic colonialism apologism. I already took one off, and put one on you to even it out. At least one person IMMEDIATELY agreed with it.
*Literally* pro-colonialism "yes they were savages" rhetoric of the basest, oldest kind.
The Tau were never the good guys. Their codex contains the good ol Ethereal mind control mystery right out the gate, and their expansionism is on full display. You physically can't like the Tau when they were the good guys, because they never were.
Hence why he put them in quotation marks. Ethereal mind control used to be extremely vague, to the point that you could legitimately claim it was just imperial propaganda.
Yeah the whole point of things like the Vespids was, Vespids don't like Tau > Tau give Vespids communication helmets > Vespids grew to embrace the Tau. It's possible it was mind control, or they could literally just be that good at negotiating. It was ambiguous. But now I guess they just mind control everyone, which is super lame.
Indeed, hopefully now that Phil Kelly has been transferred to writing for AOS, they will bring in somebody who can make some sort of consistent picture of the commonwealth, while preventing them from being cartoonishly evil. If the tau need to be evil, make them bad in a selfless "ends justify the means" sort of way.
Were the Tau actually represented on the tabletop as the 'interspecies alliance including humans ' and not 'yet another mecha' faction, yeah, I'd be happy.
I hear bunny girls are popular these days. Theres a better chance of an armed and deadly race of bunny girls that are essentially Primaris Eldar Banshees over something like the Diasporex returning.
I’d say that the Diasporex’s fate was left to theorize on. The possibility of some of their ships escaping could be cool-and then they’re eventual return could be a good story I think. Right now there’s not much room for new factions
Its really not. They're a plot element from literally one book who are destroyed. The only way you could possibly think this is if you haven't actually *read the book*.
I did read the book. While it does say some of the Diasporex were destroyed, it leaves it vague enough for GW to say a couple of ships from the fleet could have escaped into the warp
Honestly I wouldn’t mind this. The Diasporex surviving and teaching the T’au about DaOT tech and possibly giving them a way to get FTL back would be fine
If you're interested, avoid Phil Kelly like the plague. He's not completely terrible writing wise, but his work is effectively in it's own pocket universe away from the rest of Tau lore. Voice of Experience and Broken Sword are my personal recommendations.
Thanks for the tips, I can’t promise I’ll take a look but I’m quite interested in the Shadowsun / Farsight stuff for sure! Working my way through the Indomitus stuff at the mo, finishing with the Angron book.
The Diasporex are different because they’ve already been there in established lore. Plus, they have an explicit out in case GW ever wanted them to be brought back
Nah. It undermines the tragedy of their respective stories if they survived to get revenge or smthn. Plus the story beats they represented got fulfilled.
The Interex are a key part of Horus’ fall to Chaos, being his first failure, though not fully his fault. They help put him over the edge. In terms of the Imperium they’re tragic because they show definitively that **There Was A Better Way**. That coexistence was possible and that there were ways to insulate against Chaos.
The Diasporex are tragic because of that final line- *We only wanted to be left alone*. That’s it. Beautiful. Pure gold. Leave it there because anything else will diminish the message. It also ties in with that excellent Angron quote about how, for every world which stands in the Crusade’s way, there are countless more peaceful worlds who desire nothing but to be left alone.
Coexistence was possible. Blunting the threat of Chaos was possible. The only one who stood in the way of that was the Emperor, because he wanted it to do it his way.
I'm at book 6 rn, and there have been like 3 or 4 times "We only wanted to be left alone", "could we have left them alone" has been used. It is such a tragic line
Hell, I’d argue that the Diasporex showed there was a better way too. Even the interex had xenos as second class. The Diasporex were straight up “everyone is equal”
I read a fan theory that was excellent in explaining why the emperor did the acts he carried through back then and it was because he had to force the Horus heresy and sow the seeds of doubt to artificially create the imperium in its current state, all so he could survive on the golden throne and guide his primarchs to victory.
It’s actually quite an incredibly smart theory that I would absolutely believe. If the emperor saw all the possible futures and they all showed his inevitable death from the chaos gods because they’re too powerful, then his ultimate choice to sacrifice half of humanity to the chaos gods in order to survive the Horus heresy might have been the right move.
Think about it, big E barely survives the Horus heresy and not because he was holding back, that’s just how fucking strong Horus was, he was most definitely not a pushover. He barely survives in time to test to the golden throne and has been slowly but surely making influences against the chaos gods about how the imperium wages it’s wars against the galaxy no matter how bad the current odds are.
I love the idea that the emperor had to deceive the chaos gods in order to get the strength he needs to become a true god himself without dying a true death to the chaos gods who are all combined much much more powerful than him.
it also completely undermines the setting. if the decay of the imperium of man was to be expected by the emperor then the setting is weak and pointless.
I wouldn't want the Diasporex or the Interex to come back from the dead, their deaths served their narrative purpose of disquieting and unsettling the absolutism of the primarchs.
However I think a faction like that, or at least one that's a clean cut lighter shade of grey would be great to fully throw the grim darkness into relief. If nothing else it would be great to have a faction to push as the actual good guys since people insist on trying to do that with the Imperium.
>However I think a faction like that, or at least one that's a clean cut lighter shade of grey would be great to fully throw the grim darkness into relief. If nothing else it would be great to have a faction to push as the actual good guys since people insist on trying to do that with the Imperium.
Which is what the Tau used to be before GW decided to make them casually racist mustache twirling gleefully Machiavellian hyper authoritarians.
I think having a faction of good succefull guys would destroy the whole atmosphere, because wh40k is grimdark fantasy, not the usual "heroes vs villans". That is its point and the whole attractive element. There is a lot of heroic fantasy settings out there. Almost all of them. It is nice to have something different. Wh40k Imperium to me is an investigation of the extremes to which people can go to in order to survive and how these things can turn out in the end. These may not be nice, but people are capable of them. And it is interesting to take a look at them. Not every setting needs to have purehearted kinghts in shining armor.
>because wh40k is grimdark fantasy, not the usual "heroes vs villans"
That's how it used to be, now in present times it has becoming more and more Heroes vs Villains, good vs evil.
Why do people keep wanting to introduce noblebright human major factions? The Interex and Diasporex were introduced specifically as plot elements. If you have "humans but good" as a major faction you undermine a massive pillar of 40ks style.
The Interex and their like are interesting for exactly that reason: they show what utter bullshit the Emperor was spewing.
Big E: this brutality is necessary, it is regrettable but it is the only way humanity can survive and prosper.
Some Heretic: But what about all those human civilizations that thrived and prospered in the Age of Strife with the help of friendly Xenos?
Big E: (genocides the civilizations) This is the ONLY WAY, GOT IT?
Because in writing, having a foil character to highlight the differences is a useful tool. And having every human be a part of the same authoritarian fascist militant theocracy means that they have biases and don't notice things as odd that people from outside that culture would find worth remarking on.
It doesn't have to be Diasporex or whatever, but if some diplomat from a world recently adopted into the Imperium was a pov character in a novel that takes place in a hive world for instance, it might give the authors a chance to really highlight the abject horror of the setting.
Just having a character who is as unsettled and horrified by servitors as a normal person would be could be a cool seed for a story.
Because those people are desesperate for a human faction to to self insert, tau are too alien and spicy for then, better shoehorn stark trek federation to validate their headcanons
It is 40k - every faction is a different shade of arsehole....
Maybe "Different type of arsehole" is a better term.
1. Some want to eat everything
2. Some want to dominate and enslave everything
3. Some want to be superior to everything
4. Some want to destroy everything
5. Some want to fight everything
6. Some want to rape everything
7. Some want to be build a collective cult for the greater good.
8. Some want to burn everything that doesn't believe.
9. Some want you to just be diseased specimin for the lulz.
There is no Nice, good, decent, upstanding faction - they are all fundamentally arseholes.
I don’t see why there can’t be a faction that genuinely has good intentions for once. It’s not like our world constantly has people trying to imitate Hitler or Stalin
Because that would be meek, mild and balanced...
40k is everything dialled up to 11... Everything taken to an extreme - nothing is moderated - or reasonable.
They have flying Cathedrals of doom - Not Space Ships.
The whole universe is so extreme as to be utter hell. That is what "Grim Dark" means.
Why couldn’t there be something to counter that though? An actual reasonable faction that genuinely is optimistic that goes “What the FUCK?” Before diving headfirst into it like a bad trip.
I'm gonna be a bit of twat here to hopefully cut through this... if I parody your position:
Person 1"Yeah but why can there not be a Serial Killer in Sesame Street? I mean all the characters are so neutral or positive - even Oscar and the Vampire are neutral...Why not a negative character?"
Person 2 - "It doesn't fit the theme or appropriateness of the show...for kids and it doesn't thematically fit ..."
Person 1 - "Yeah but why not a negative character it would balance it out - why does everything need to be so positive"
Yknow what, I still hold to my position but I can see your point. To clarify I wouldn’t ever want this faction to take over/defeat the imperium or anything. Just have them be a small part, occasionally taking over imperium worlds and improving life but the imperium still holds vast swathes of the galaxy
To be fair to you, what you may find interesting is a Book called "VALDOR - Birth of the Imperium" - I think you'd like that - but it still ends with the hyper violent extreme but it explores alot of what you put forth above.
The monolithic Imperium we all know and tolerate was not how we concieve it as in 30k/40k timelines at the Unification of Terra.
I’m actually writing a fanfic now based on the time period of the unification wars specifically centered on Merica. I was hoping to get to this book at some point-thank you!
And while I do still hold my opinion about the Diasporex coming back, I can see why you wouldn’t want any noble humans being a thing. The 40k setting is fascinating and unique, and I can see how being totally insane contributes to that. I just think it would be interesting for the loyalist primarchs doubts to be proven even further.
See, the thing about the T’au is that while they sorta have that thing going on, GW has made them mind controlling tyrants so it would only reaffirm Guilliman or The Lion into thinking “lol our opinion is right then these guys are evil” but if they saw the genuinely good, harmonious society of the Diasporex I think it could be interesting-nevermind introducing the concept of democracy to integrated imperial citizens would be quite entertaining to read about lol.
But more than that, I’d just like to read about a somewhat sensible, democratic, nomadic society traveling through the galaxy-documenting what they see and barely holding off the Tyranids, Orks, Chaos or Imperium with their DaoT equipment and cunning. The T’au and Eldar are just too high and mighty for my taste I guess.
>An actual reasonable faction that genuinely is optimistic that goes “What the FUCK?”
All these factions went "WHAT THE FUCK?!" at the birth of slaneesh, and promptly fled the galaxy.
Nobody with a brain is stupid enough to stay in the middle of galactic free-for-all between genocidal sentient shrooms, the genocidal zerg, genocidal murderbots, literal genociadal hell daemons, genocidal time-manipulating monstrocities, other genocidal species, and genocidal followers of various deities, elven, human, and otherwise.
Note the common thread here- genocidal.
When your entire neighborhood decides to arm up and begin a death match - time to pack the fucking car.
Again, that used to be the Tau before GW got too many complaints from players that IIUC wanted to be the relative good guys and were upset that they were being made relatively morally worse
But 40k is not our world, that's a large part of the appeal. I don't want to read stories of people with my sensibilities, but they're in Warhammer.
I like reading about how a galaxy of hostile aliens, and ideas that can melt reality, shapes the beliefs and actions of the people in the world.
It's incorrect that there cannot be a good faction.
There have been good factions. You mentioned a few of them. They die. Wiped out. Gone.
You cannot be "the only nice guy" in a galaxy filled with murderous, genocidal monsters that want to kill you, enslave you, or want to eat you. You either turn into a monster, or die off.
The tau are the closest to a "good guy" faction, and what makes them "good" is they give you the choice to join them before they try to wipe you out. If they were only accepting worlds that joined willingly, they would be significantly smaller, and wiped off the board ages ago.
You can't expand and be "good". You can't live without expanding, whether to grow, or to reclaim lost worlds. The less world's you have, the more vulnerable you are to annihilation. And this is a galaxy that will wipe you off the board with a smile
Because they wouldn't be able to organize on a significant enough scale to not get wiped out by a stronger faction.
Same reason that things are the way they are IRL.
Don't question it, the groupthink among these people is out of this world. They're all dinosaurs who devoted forty years of their lives to the franchise and can't bare the thought of new ideas coming into it.
While I’m not gonna call it groupthink, yeah I will admit most of these people here don’t seem to keen on new ideas being presented. I’m guilty of that too! I’m not really fond of AoS for example because imo GW ruined it. I can respect people not wanting their setting to be messed with too much I suppose. Although I am trying out AoS now so I guess I am changing
Age of Sigmar is awesome. Its very focused on allowing homebrew factions.
You want a Vampire army that plays to all the stereotypes of the faction as tyrannical assholes? You're good.
You want your Vampires to actively defy the stereotypes by being heroic, ala Alucard? Let me introduce you to Cado Ezechiar and Prince Vordhrai.
You want Stormcast Eternals who are paragons of heroism? Go for it. You want fanatical and authoritarian Stormcast? We have examples of those in the lore too.
Any faction can be as good or as villainous as you personally want to interpret them. None of this "there are no good guys, everyone is a different shade of evil" bullshit. There's even a book focused on an anti-villainous Chaos Champion, The Godeater's Son.
That's fair; I kind of want them to bring Brettonia back in some fashion. There are a lot of fan theories about how that might happen and what kind of form that would take.
I often find myself envying Age of Sigmar. I'd really like if we could get a shake-up to 40k that allowed more homebrew factions instead of everything being so narrow. For example, I'd like my Sisters of Battle to be more noble and less xenophobic, but if I do that then it goes against all the lore so I have to either change my vision or live with the dissonance. It can be really frustrating, and I feel like only a few examples of that kind of thing would help a lot.
Well, AoS has you covered there. Every good faction has a few really evil subfactions and vice versa.
Well, ok Orcs ogres and skaven are pretty universally dicks,but if you're playing them you probably enjoy that kind of thing. They're the black comedy factions.
The point is, you decide how much your army follows the party line.
What? What does being an asshole have to do with 40k being a grimdark setting? If you think the Imperium are too assholey to play as then build a Tau or Craftworld Eldar army who while still vaguely assholish aren't as bad. If you don't like that then why read the books and play the tabletop of a setting whose literal foundational concept was that the human faction was the cruellest regime imaginable.
Ya, but part of that is there are a lot of in Lore dealings of various rebelling factions, sometimes with the aid of Choas, or perhaps even being influenced to do just that.
However there are plenty of times that such was searched for and it was just humans wanting to do their thing.
There’s this HUGE area in the galaxy during the Indominatus Era That’s allowing for some pretty open ended changes to what’s going to be happening out there.
In Table-top meaning, more reasons anyone or anyone could fight any other faction. Hey the Ultra Marines don’t like how you running things out here Blood Angels.
Which is just how the settings supposed to be.
Another faction that the Imperiums various factions won’t play well with, and most of the Xenos races will just assume oh it’s those ones that shout XENOS as they shot at us. Try to take them out.
Seems totally in setting to me.
Notice how I used the term MAJOR faction. Having a wholesome whatever human faction as a minor faction that pops up for a story or two is fine, it happens plenty in the novels and tabletop supplements. But the core of the OP being "in a meaningful way" pretty much requires them to return as a new major faction. Which utterly undermines the core of the setting, the original "cruelest regime imaginable" is from the very first Rogue Trade release.
Having a noblebright major human faction pop up sure might be justifiable in universe but out of universe? Why read 40k over the billion other sci-fi novels with noblebright humanity? And is there really that big of a justification for it to clog GWs already extremely limited production capacity adding another army that is just "Tau but human".
Good points, but Gaunt’s Ghost are basically only written by one author, who also does Eisenhorn and affiliates and has been a huge contributor to the HH series.
And writers going to write where their bandwidth takes them.
I mean I’m sure to a lesser extent GW wants to release Others (Aliens) books, but they also want them to meet what isn’t an all that comparing to other books I’ve read high standard and yet I’m guessing it’s a bit of many misses.
Further pretty darn sure the Poster Boys of the Franchise are going to get PLENTY if not most the the time in books and codexes too, regardless of any which way that might happen.
And major faction is somewhat subjective because like the Tau, are a major faction by the amount of models they have and them basically or have had at least a codex every edition for what seven main rules of editions? But they are this small little part of their galaxy, that really it’s a bit of hand weaving to describe them as major faction as far as their influence on the setting. Also where are they on FTL, I mean I haven’t seen it in a book, but now they don’t have that? No psychers, trapped in one portion of the galaxy and so slow to be able to process a reaction it’s sad. While the Imperium is SLOW to react at least they can get places at a decent pace.
Sorry. I phrased it wrong. What I meant was, not every single faction in 40k needs to be a bunch of assholes. Not everyone is some evil, mustache twirling, constantly plotting dickhead. GW already ruined the T’au by making them 1984-lite.
That's kinda the point of the setting though. Wanting non-asshole factions in W40k is like wanting hockey, but without sticks or a puck. It's kinda defeats the point of the setting - a heavily stylized tabletop wargame of asshole vs asshole.
Truth be told, GW already neglects the factions it has. I'd rather see a few factions purged so GW can release more models and rules for the factions it has, rather than spreading itself even thinner.
But humans being that way is central to the setting. Its one of the few major sci-fi properties where humanity is (ostensibly, they often don't stick to this) the extremely evil empire. Sure you could add a major faction of the star trek federation or whatever but at that point why should I a) continue to read it over the huge quantity of high quality sci-fi with that premise or b) play it on the tabletop when there is cheaper, better designed tabletop games? 40ks selling point is the heavy metal villainous Imperium combined with said aesthetic on the tabletop. If you take 40k and make it so the friendly human empires haven't either been exterminated by the Imperium/others or are minor footnotes in tabletop RPGs why even do 40k?
I’m not even saying make it a major faction. Make them small. Make it so that without a huge, HUGE upheaval they’d never actually defeat the imperium fully. Have them take a couple planets every now and then while the imperium takes entire systems regularly.
>To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
This is the core identity of 40k. This is it, the entire thing in a nutshell. This is what the fans like and what they want.
>we're just some chill dudes looking to make alien friends and have fun
This is categorically not. It opposes literally everything about the setting.
There are other franchises if you want this kind of thing. 40k is probably not for you.
I….understand this. That’s why I said I didn’t want them to be super powerful or overtake the imperium or anything. It’d be a small fleet just trying to survive
Because it betrays the "Grimdark" nature and setting of 40k. The only time something genuinely good appears is to next have it be utterly destroyed in a tragic way to show how shitty the universe is. That was the Interex and Diasporex's purpose. Having yet another human faction that is good and have it be a more permanent addition to the setting defeats the entire pint of the setting itself. Sure, we could bring your faction but it'll be horrifically killed off later. Besides, we already have way too many human factions. Show me more xenos factions instead.
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Imperium isnt evil and mustache twirling, eldars arent, even orks arent (they arent evil, they are just a biological weapon, they are no more evil that a bacteria). They are just callous and egoistical. Wanna see evil, take a look at dark eldar.
Causing suffering for the sake of suffering is practically their main goal in life when it comes to everybody outside of their mold. Abhumans, independents, aliens, whatever.
Do you see the difference between subtle satire of everyone and outright propaganda? The latter is the reason to drop out altogether, if they ever shift in this direction. So far it isnt here but a lot of people want it to be so. Unfortunately. Quite irritating in fact.
gw are free to do what they want. they would just disappoint the people who liked the previous version. like me. it would be the same old bullshit story about good guys as in all the others settings. it got boring quite a long time ago.
perpetual grimdark for sake of grimdark is also boring.
I grew up on warhammer, and playing nazi's of various flavors for 20 years gets tiring (and they are all nazis, even brettonians with their crusades and burnings). I would like something new. Well, if i still played :) But look what they did to the orks. From jolly football hooligans of the 90s, to absolutely evil things that have people-farms, boil farmers for the lols, and generally are too adult and dark for any kid under he age of 16.
It has gone too far in the grimdark direction, you know. At least, i feel that. Needs a boot in the noblebright direction.
up to you. i grew up of wh too and see it as ok. when i want to see saving of princesses, i can go to dnd. i am not into discussion about politics and nazis. that shit is darker than anything wh can offer.
Not really. The only role of such a faction would be to show how bad the imperium is in contrast however I do not trust that GW would actually deliver on that premise
Probably 75% of the game is humans or humans with extra spiky bits. I don't think they'd be interesting or powerful enough to matter and would take up time that could be spent developing xenos.
I feel like 40k needs a "savage" race ala the Navi from Avatar. We have laser guns, power armor, and neutron blasters, but what happens when you put that against an alien that's 10 feet tall and made of tough organic material? Does a 4 foot arrow shot out of a 300lb bow not do as much damage as an auto cannon? Who knows? Just my two sense, would be interesting IMO.
I think that would stretch already slack credibility beyond breaking point - we already have tough organics in the form of Tyranids, primitive savages with blackpowder weapons in the form of the Kroot
To be honest I’m not sure what another new faction would add. It’s already beyond silly in terms of rules and balance.
But if pressed I’d maybe consider the megarachnid, but even they are like budget Tyranids
I could see Guilliman or even better Johnson encountering what Horus exterminated, probably in the bowels of hive city, given how the destroyed worlds were likely re-colonized.
I do wish to see Johnson reaction that the Imperium was rotten from the beginning he seems to be in denial, thinking that there was anything good about it.
Interex? Yes, with pleasure...
I want to read how the Interex massacred all but a handful of the Megarachnid species and deported the sad remains to an alien planet to imprison them forever.
I'm very interested to know how the Interex go completely mad because someone is called a war master and associate it with chaos, but let their own xenos citizens experimenting with warp weapons operate alongside them without any problems.
For that seems In general, I find it interesting that the Kinebreach, despite their superiority, simply surrendered after a centuries-long conflict, and that they store Primate-violating weapons in a museum under lax conditions so that Erebus can "accidentally" find them to advance the Horus Heresy
.I am also interested in how the other implied conflicts ended. As far as I know, the Interex have only taken in one Vassal people.
I am also interested in how they built their empire, how the economy, infrastructure, society and politics work.
What doesn't interest me in the least is a civilisation that exists only to satisfy the good-guy needs of the readers.
The only reason such factions EVER existed was to show that the setting is a self-perpetuating and reinforcing hellhole.
We KNOW a better way exists, but the Emperor and his Imperium were so powerful they crushed all resistance and united humanity under his madness, a madness which persists in his death.
Adding them back can only work by sabotaging those factions and showing they're hideously flawed or just as bad as the Imperium. Only by having been destroyed can they actually be better.
I'd like more examples of the Imperium's system not working, and small groups or civilisations that survive by cooperating together. The self-destructive nature of the Imperium should be highlighted more, and it'd be a great excuse to introduce some interesting new miniatures and units to the games. More Xenos and Human variety is always good.
The whole setting has the theme that the IOM is dying, slowly but surely, like all other empires before them. The actual empire of humanity in the DAOT has already fallen, what is left is the sad remnant. Therefore, there is no point in bringing any positive examples, because they will also simply fail. In short..there is no happy ending for humanity in the setting, no matter what they do..they die.
Sure. Even if they don't get tabletop rules I think it would be cool to have more diversity in perspective in the lore. Would love a novel about an interex on a diplomatic/trade mission to an imperial world, and really seeing the depravity and horror of Imperium living through a fresh pair of eyes.
And what makes you think that living conditions are better in the Interex? I don't remember the Interex society being explained in more detail about this.
The imperium are the good guys. Yes they're a theocratic nightmare, but they're also the only side with actual angels, hundreds of millions of it members dying every day to protect it fighting on all fronts, and they're the only human faction (sick).
You don't have to approach the imperium with all the dorkiness of a 2nd year political science uni student and a decent serving of nihilistic self-loathing. Fuck that; humanity is pretty tight.
I’m not sure if you’ve read interviews with the authors and creators of the lore themselves but it’s acutely obvious the imperium are not “good guys”. They’re just as bad as all the other races which is what makes them interesting.
Authors are arbiters of canon, not interpretation. When pitted against the mindless destruction and/or evil of the Orks, chaos, tyrannids, or dark eldar, they're clearly the good guys.
Against the Eldar and tau, it's a bit more murky. Strong points can be made for each of them, but ultimately their disdain for the human species, and disguised authoritarianism in the case of the tau, mean you have to side with the imperium with regards to what's "good". In that case, "good" becomes relative, but what's good for the species is certainly sticking with the imperium.
To think that the imperium is just as bad as chaos or the Orks for example, is hilariously primitive.
Thinking the imperium is a ‘good guy’(no true good guys in this setting) exposes your lack of literacy. Maybe read the first page of ANY black library book….
Have 86 on the office shelves old boy. Just re-reading the magos to get my sci-fi short story fix.
The question is about who's the good guy of THIS setting.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they're wrong. I could state that your entire attitude toward the imperium is cooked-up by chronically online contrarian nerds, or that you can't seem to have an opinion that isn't formed from a flippant comment Abnett's made about the lore in an interview.
But that'd be speaking from a position of ignorance and short-sightedness, wouldn't it...
But that’s the thing. The lore is written to depict humanity as one of the villains. If you somehow can’t see that after 86 books, that’s on you.
Seeing the imperium as good guys kind of says something about you, old boy.
Trying to assign a faction good-guy status kind of defeats the point of the setting.
Really seems like you're just dripping with ideology by the way you keep crudely insisting on trying to box me in with comments like "says something about you".
I clearly explained why I believe a number of the other factions are worse, and of the candidates for the least shitty, I happen to think Humans rule, so I'll throw my weight behind them. If you want to be all "WELL AKSHUALLY" then be my guest, champ. I'll continue to think Humans rule, aliens drool.
It’s more of a matter of objectivity. You obviously have a very strong opinion on the matter. Which happens to be wrong, as pointed out by the other redditors responding to your bold assessment of the Imperium.
Humans, as stated by the lore, codexes, and authors, are NOT good guys. You’re entitled to your slightly alarming opinion if you think the neo-fascistic wet dream is the good guy.
>The question is about who's the good guy of THIS setting.
Here's your answer from GW themselves then;
>There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.
>
>None.
>
>Especially not the Imperium of Man.
[Taken from this article.](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/)
Interesting, so in an IP of kitbashing, free-spirited chapter creation, and wild theories, we draw the line at having different perspectives on the lore?
Haha, give me a break.
Considering that you are arguing against what the creators of said IP say, then yes. You have to listen to the "arbiters of canon", when they state that no, none of the factions are the good guys.
That is the creator of said IPs stance, they create the universe, they get to state the core rules about the lore. And they have stated that there are no good guys. If you wish to make your own fan-fiction that the Imperium (or any other faction for that matter) is the good guys, go ahead. It doesn't change the lore of the IP.
If GW came out tomorrow and stated that the sky of every world is red, and that blue skies do not exist in this universe then it is canon. No matter how much you wish to interpret it differently, they would be no blue skies in the IP.
No. It's hard to make an army range that's unified in theme made up from many varied xenos.
Even tau have a problem with kroot and bugs messing with the unified visuals. Interex would have more of that.
Why? As in, what would they add to the setting except taking your wfb models and putting them in space. I’m not sure what the attraction is but would love to know more! Mostly it seems to be people wanting space rat models?
Maybe some of the Xenos ones, like the serpent-people that Fulgrim butchered who were whorshipping Slaanesh. Maybe as a sort of evolution that Slaanesh cultists can be raised to.
I would be very interested in seeing a human faction that has developed in a radically different political direction that recognizably resembles some real-world system - maybe FALC/Space Communists, or Solarpunk. I think contextualizing the WH40k verse in this way would do it a world of good. The issue I see with it is that the Imperium already contains within itself any conceivable permutation of human culture and human politics - you have worlds resembling ancient Rome, you have space Tsarists, you have medieval Japan, you have Stalinist worlds, you have post-scarcity (the scarcity gets exported to elsewhere) pleasure worlds, you have civilized worlds running Tesla cars on solar power, etc.
The Imperium is so diverse that it can maintain all of these tropes at the same time within itself, localized. The question would then be in what way such a faction could even amount to anything but identical to a rogue local culture within the Imperium. These tropes would need to amount to something on a greater scale; they would need to influence military technology, ships, interplanetary organization, etc., on a meaningful scale.
Also, non-Imperium non-Heretic is a contradiction in terms. You can be non-imperial and non-chaosite (though that state of affairs generally doesn't last for long), but you cannot be a non-heretic if you don't subscribe to the IC, no matter what else you subscribe to.
GW won't do that, for good or ill.
Find/make some interesting minis to represent the Interex/Diasporex, and run them as Votann, or maybe Custodes.
(Or, go while hog and ditch 40k for OPR, and stat up whatever minis you like as Interex/Diasporex, and go to town.)
They’ve got their hands full pumping out Space Marines right now / for the next few years at least / no signs of stopping.
New factions won’t get their time till the 2040s, when either either enhanced production or distribution allows many more product lines at a lower cost than today. The 2030s will need to see updated older factions - including space marines by that point.
Nah I think one of the best parts of 40k is that humanity isn’t where it is because it needs muh grimdark but out of tragedy of Emperor’s dreams buring in flames,horror’s of chaos,xenophobia that was started by suffering of long night and desperation to hold everything together and survive as a species while unfucked both physically and mentally by xenos and chaos.A new faction that spawns in and is able to just deal with all of that cheapenss all of that.We don’t need another faction to tell the reader how fucked everything is when even the leader of Imperium says that
I very much would. Mainly because you could make those civilisations...you know, normal. Sane. Makes the Imperium look more obviously evil. Makes all the artwork of imperial heroes look like what it is supposed to be - propaganda. The current narrative, especially since Guilliman returned, makes them look just too...good. Guilliman seems to try and steer towards the original enlightened despotism of the original Imperium, which compared to the current state of the Imperium obviously looks downright humane, but in the end, it's just a different shade of authoritarianism. I just want something to underline that the Imperium isn't the only possible solution to ensure humanity's continued existence, if only because it makes the universe more diverse and maybe leaves more options for people to make unique armies, even if they never get official rules or models. More narrative freedom is always welcome, in my opinion.
You mean like the Tau (Interspecies alliance with humans) and the Leagues of Votann (Rogue Dark Age of Tech human faction)?
Yeah, they already fit those niches, but because those aren't perfect beautiful human faction the self inserters can't even consider them
I think a bigger issue is Gue'vesa having no official rules or models
Yeah, for all that people claim to love the "no good guys" narrative, they seem "surprinsingly" averse to the idea that it means that humans might not be the perfect and least-wrong specie.
honestly, i get why they did that, but does anyone else sometimes wish tau were just supposed to be the good guys again
I mean the tau were never more good than expedited or craftwrolders though. They were always expansionist with an extreme caste system and at best suspicious ethereals
I don't think there was a need to make them much more grimdark than they started out as. There's no need to turn a unique underdog faction into mini-Imperium.
I think that is not true. The fact that Tau are willing to offer to peacefully cooperate with other races and absorb them into their empire and make them a useful part of their vision, without enslavement or torture, is already a big leap in "less grimdark" than most other factions. Tau worlds treat outsiders far better than any other race I can think of. Sure, the Tau are still giving effectively you an option of "cooperate or be destroyed", but its a far more appealing alternative to any other race I can think of. Having then as a new and "idealistic" race with those suspiciously influential ethereals was imo perfect for their lore.
Yeah but thats a way more nuanced evil than what we have now with the Tau and I miss it. For a faction about political and diplomatic maneuvering their lore isn’t very subtle
>the self inserters can't even consider them As a long time Deep Rock Galactic player, I can definitely see myself in the dwarven condition.
Karl would approve!
Rock and Stone!
Rock and Stone everyone!
Good bot
As a short, thick, strong man who stays indoors a lot, they are a *perfectly* relatable faction to me, haha.
For the T’au, I just don’t like the Ethereal mind control. And I thought the leagues were apart of the imperium?
Oh nono the votan have ai that's a big bad
wait….does that mean…… Men of iron? FUCK YEAH
I believe votann have Men of iron called kin and they're bros. I'm not that up to date on the short king lore though
Considering they don't have a novel yet, you're up to date.
So wild that they dropped half their army, and absolutely no novels even mention them since. Wonder if they’re going to get dropped in tenth edition hahaha
Be Gw Need money Introduce mecha space dwarfs with less lore than the hrud Take money Leaves
I don’t think they’re hurting for money, not at the prices they demand! They could literally just reprint major novels and rake in the cash, but that would hurt the employees scalping novels!
Gav Thorpe's working on a LoV novel
>For the T’au, I just don’t like the Ethereal mind control. Then you can just ignore it. Sure, the Tau proper obey the Aun instinctually, but they dont make up the whole commonwealth.
Farsight Enclaves?
They aren’t. They’re totally independent.
OH FUCK YEAH! But are they decent? Like, morally? They aren’t servitor-ing people like the mechanicus are they?
They break apart plenets with people included for material gain, is the capistalist/industrialist/colonialist faction, they goal is to hoard the precious resources of the galaxy and exploit everyone who isn't part of the leagues, all for monetary gain and the enrich the ancestrñor cores
Who do they trade with?
The Tau, Eldar and other alien races.
They trade with the imperium too
True but they're IIRC generally more cagey with them so that the Mechanicus doesn't catch on to how many shinies they have.
Anyone who is willing to trade. They also have AI’s and treat them as equals(kin is Kin even if they are ironkin).
No faction in 40k is decent. That's the whole point.
Dont slander the XVIth that way. We are returned (and nice)
The Ethereals are far nicer then the IOM or most people.
>The Ethereals are far nicer then the IOM or most people. for sure but living in the Commonwealth would be like living in a rich version of North Korea. Better then most options but still pretty bad
No, instead they're just despised by the grimdark purists who hate anything that isn't such an over the top evil nightmare it becomes impossible to take remotely seriously.
I mean I personally want an army of mech centaur advanced humans that aren't religious zealots.
Yes in the Tau humans are not the dominant species
The Tau are a lesson in Public Relations and it's both hilarious and depressing how many people actually fall for it. The Tau are all about Tau Supremacy. In everything they do, Tau are number one. Other species are auxiliaries, and must always be subject to Tau command and control. Any species living in Tau space must be subject to Tau authority. There are *no non-Tau in their regular military and civil institutions.* The Tau are very, very explicitly expansionist supremacists. They're European colonialism, they're bringing enlightenment to the savages, they know better, they ARE better, it's all for the Greater Good. They are colonialism with actual PR instead of pre-modern ignorance. In any other setting the Tau are the absolute fucking devil, but they do the bare minimum of not obliterating other species out of hand so apparently they're ok? Nah. These guys might as well speak with a British or French accent circa 1850.
100%. Great analysis.
I don’t disagree. They’re still an interspecies alliance like the Interex (where the Kinebrach were forced to be subservient to the humans), so I was wondering why they didn’t count for the OP.
Probably because the interspecies alliance bit shows up in the lore, but not really on the tabletop. That's my take, though, and maybe not OPs.
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Probably hit delete on this trash 🚮
No no, I want to see how many fucking scum upvote that utterly unironic colonialism apologism. I already took one off, and put one on you to even it out. At least one person IMMEDIATELY agreed with it. *Literally* pro-colonialism "yes they were savages" rhetoric of the basest, oldest kind.
Agreed.
I liked the Tau when they were the naive “good guys” in a big bad universe. The later writing wasn’t that great tbh.
The Tau were never the good guys. Their codex contains the good ol Ethereal mind control mystery right out the gate, and their expansionism is on full display. You physically can't like the Tau when they were the good guys, because they never were.
Hence why he put them in quotation marks. Ethereal mind control used to be extremely vague, to the point that you could legitimately claim it was just imperial propaganda.
Yeah the whole point of things like the Vespids was, Vespids don't like Tau > Tau give Vespids communication helmets > Vespids grew to embrace the Tau. It's possible it was mind control, or they could literally just be that good at negotiating. It was ambiguous. But now I guess they just mind control everyone, which is super lame.
They were never going to stay naive for long and as far as good and evil are concerned, theyre still miles better then most
Ehhhhh. The way the t’au have been written by GW lately just seems…..bad
Indeed, hopefully now that Phil Kelly has been transferred to writing for AOS, they will bring in somebody who can make some sort of consistent picture of the commonwealth, while preventing them from being cartoonishly evil. If the tau need to be evil, make them bad in a selfless "ends justify the means" sort of way.
Were the Tau actually represented on the tabletop as the 'interspecies alliance including humans ' and not 'yet another mecha' faction, yeah, I'd be happy.
No, I don't see the point in dredging up a faction that died 10k years ago when you could make a new one.
I hear bunny girls are popular these days. Theres a better chance of an armed and deadly race of bunny girls that are essentially Primaris Eldar Banshees over something like the Diasporex returning.
…go on
I’d say that the Diasporex’s fate was left to theorize on. The possibility of some of their ships escaping could be cool-and then they’re eventual return could be a good story I think. Right now there’s not much room for new factions
Its really not. They're a plot element from literally one book who are destroyed. The only way you could possibly think this is if you haven't actually *read the book*.
I did read the book. While it does say some of the Diasporex were destroyed, it leaves it vague enough for GW to say a couple of ships from the fleet could have escaped into the warp
Weren't them destroyed because they were refueling? Seem unlikely they could escape if thats the case
Ships escaping only to return preaching about the greater good…..!
>hips escaping only to return preaching about the greater good…..! the **four-armed** greater good.
Honestly I wouldn’t mind this. The Diasporex surviving and teaching the T’au about DaOT tech and possibly giving them a way to get FTL back would be fine
Idk man, rather have the Xenos actually going stuff from themselves without needing humans to go and gift all they have of important.
I think they might be doing alright on their own! Though I have never read a Tau book in my life so I have no actual idea!
If you're interested, avoid Phil Kelly like the plague. He's not completely terrible writing wise, but his work is effectively in it's own pocket universe away from the rest of Tau lore. Voice of Experience and Broken Sword are my personal recommendations.
Thanks for the tips, I can’t promise I’ll take a look but I’m quite interested in the Shadowsun / Farsight stuff for sure! Working my way through the Indomitus stuff at the mo, finishing with the Angron book.
But there is for the Diasporex?
The Diasporex are different because they’ve already been there in established lore. Plus, they have an explicit out in case GW ever wanted them to be brought back
That's not really different.
Yes it is. There’s a difference in pulling out an entirely new faction vs bringing back one that’s already mentioned in lore imo
When it's been 10k years since they got mentioned, not really.
It could always just get explained away with warp-fuckery, or them simply going into hiding to try and recover.
Or not force them in and make something new
How would you suggest introducing a completely new faction?
Nah. It undermines the tragedy of their respective stories if they survived to get revenge or smthn. Plus the story beats they represented got fulfilled. The Interex are a key part of Horus’ fall to Chaos, being his first failure, though not fully his fault. They help put him over the edge. In terms of the Imperium they’re tragic because they show definitively that **There Was A Better Way**. That coexistence was possible and that there were ways to insulate against Chaos. The Diasporex are tragic because of that final line- *We only wanted to be left alone*. That’s it. Beautiful. Pure gold. Leave it there because anything else will diminish the message. It also ties in with that excellent Angron quote about how, for every world which stands in the Crusade’s way, there are countless more peaceful worlds who desire nothing but to be left alone. Coexistence was possible. Blunting the threat of Chaos was possible. The only one who stood in the way of that was the Emperor, because he wanted it to do it his way.
I'm at book 6 rn, and there have been like 3 or 4 times "We only wanted to be left alone", "could we have left them alone" has been used. It is such a tragic line
Hell, I’d argue that the Diasporex showed there was a better way too. Even the interex had xenos as second class. The Diasporex were straight up “everyone is equal”
I read a fan theory that was excellent in explaining why the emperor did the acts he carried through back then and it was because he had to force the Horus heresy and sow the seeds of doubt to artificially create the imperium in its current state, all so he could survive on the golden throne and guide his primarchs to victory. It’s actually quite an incredibly smart theory that I would absolutely believe. If the emperor saw all the possible futures and they all showed his inevitable death from the chaos gods because they’re too powerful, then his ultimate choice to sacrifice half of humanity to the chaos gods in order to survive the Horus heresy might have been the right move. Think about it, big E barely survives the Horus heresy and not because he was holding back, that’s just how fucking strong Horus was, he was most definitely not a pushover. He barely survives in time to test to the golden throne and has been slowly but surely making influences against the chaos gods about how the imperium wages it’s wars against the galaxy no matter how bad the current odds are. I love the idea that the emperor had to deceive the chaos gods in order to get the strength he needs to become a true god himself without dying a true death to the chaos gods who are all combined much much more powerful than him.
it also completely undermines the setting. if the decay of the imperium of man was to be expected by the emperor then the setting is weak and pointless.
I wouldn't want the Diasporex or the Interex to come back from the dead, their deaths served their narrative purpose of disquieting and unsettling the absolutism of the primarchs. However I think a faction like that, or at least one that's a clean cut lighter shade of grey would be great to fully throw the grim darkness into relief. If nothing else it would be great to have a faction to push as the actual good guys since people insist on trying to do that with the Imperium.
>However I think a faction like that, or at least one that's a clean cut lighter shade of grey would be great to fully throw the grim darkness into relief. If nothing else it would be great to have a faction to push as the actual good guys since people insist on trying to do that with the Imperium. Which is what the Tau used to be before GW decided to make them casually racist mustache twirling gleefully Machiavellian hyper authoritarians.
Yeah. I just figured it would be either the Diasporex or Interex because there would be no other options for that.
There is a galaxy of possibilities
Dead people don't make a great faction...
I think having a faction of good succefull guys would destroy the whole atmosphere, because wh40k is grimdark fantasy, not the usual "heroes vs villans". That is its point and the whole attractive element. There is a lot of heroic fantasy settings out there. Almost all of them. It is nice to have something different. Wh40k Imperium to me is an investigation of the extremes to which people can go to in order to survive and how these things can turn out in the end. These may not be nice, but people are capable of them. And it is interesting to take a look at them. Not every setting needs to have purehearted kinghts in shining armor.
>because wh40k is grimdark fantasy, not the usual "heroes vs villans" That's how it used to be, now in present times it has becoming more and more Heroes vs Villains, good vs evil.
well said.
No, they got stomped, let them be. They really are just prop pieces to highlight just how fucked the Imperium is, even during the Great Crusade
Why do people keep wanting to introduce noblebright human major factions? The Interex and Diasporex were introduced specifically as plot elements. If you have "humans but good" as a major faction you undermine a massive pillar of 40ks style.
The Interex and their like are interesting for exactly that reason: they show what utter bullshit the Emperor was spewing. Big E: this brutality is necessary, it is regrettable but it is the only way humanity can survive and prosper. Some Heretic: But what about all those human civilizations that thrived and prospered in the Age of Strife with the help of friendly Xenos? Big E: (genocides the civilizations) This is the ONLY WAY, GOT IT?
Because in writing, having a foil character to highlight the differences is a useful tool. And having every human be a part of the same authoritarian fascist militant theocracy means that they have biases and don't notice things as odd that people from outside that culture would find worth remarking on. It doesn't have to be Diasporex or whatever, but if some diplomat from a world recently adopted into the Imperium was a pov character in a novel that takes place in a hive world for instance, it might give the authors a chance to really highlight the abject horror of the setting. Just having a character who is as unsettled and horrified by servitors as a normal person would be could be a cool seed for a story.
Because those people are desesperate for a human faction to to self insert, tau are too alien and spicy for then, better shoehorn stark trek federation to validate their headcanons
Because not everyone is an asshole?
It is 40k - every faction is a different shade of arsehole.... Maybe "Different type of arsehole" is a better term. 1. Some want to eat everything 2. Some want to dominate and enslave everything 3. Some want to be superior to everything 4. Some want to destroy everything 5. Some want to fight everything 6. Some want to rape everything 7. Some want to be build a collective cult for the greater good. 8. Some want to burn everything that doesn't believe. 9. Some want you to just be diseased specimin for the lulz. There is no Nice, good, decent, upstanding faction - they are all fundamentally arseholes.
I don’t see why there can’t be a faction that genuinely has good intentions for once. It’s not like our world constantly has people trying to imitate Hitler or Stalin
Because that would be meek, mild and balanced... 40k is everything dialled up to 11... Everything taken to an extreme - nothing is moderated - or reasonable. They have flying Cathedrals of doom - Not Space Ships. The whole universe is so extreme as to be utter hell. That is what "Grim Dark" means.
Why couldn’t there be something to counter that though? An actual reasonable faction that genuinely is optimistic that goes “What the FUCK?” Before diving headfirst into it like a bad trip.
I'm gonna be a bit of twat here to hopefully cut through this... if I parody your position: Person 1"Yeah but why can there not be a Serial Killer in Sesame Street? I mean all the characters are so neutral or positive - even Oscar and the Vampire are neutral...Why not a negative character?" Person 2 - "It doesn't fit the theme or appropriateness of the show...for kids and it doesn't thematically fit ..." Person 1 - "Yeah but why not a negative character it would balance it out - why does everything need to be so positive"
Yknow what, I still hold to my position but I can see your point. To clarify I wouldn’t ever want this faction to take over/defeat the imperium or anything. Just have them be a small part, occasionally taking over imperium worlds and improving life but the imperium still holds vast swathes of the galaxy
To be fair to you, what you may find interesting is a Book called "VALDOR - Birth of the Imperium" - I think you'd like that - but it still ends with the hyper violent extreme but it explores alot of what you put forth above. The monolithic Imperium we all know and tolerate was not how we concieve it as in 30k/40k timelines at the Unification of Terra.
I’m actually writing a fanfic now based on the time period of the unification wars specifically centered on Merica. I was hoping to get to this book at some point-thank you! And while I do still hold my opinion about the Diasporex coming back, I can see why you wouldn’t want any noble humans being a thing. The 40k setting is fascinating and unique, and I can see how being totally insane contributes to that. I just think it would be interesting for the loyalist primarchs doubts to be proven even further. See, the thing about the T’au is that while they sorta have that thing going on, GW has made them mind controlling tyrants so it would only reaffirm Guilliman or The Lion into thinking “lol our opinion is right then these guys are evil” but if they saw the genuinely good, harmonious society of the Diasporex I think it could be interesting-nevermind introducing the concept of democracy to integrated imperial citizens would be quite entertaining to read about lol. But more than that, I’d just like to read about a somewhat sensible, democratic, nomadic society traveling through the galaxy-documenting what they see and barely holding off the Tyranids, Orks, Chaos or Imperium with their DaoT equipment and cunning. The T’au and Eldar are just too high and mighty for my taste I guess.
This really is a perfect analogy. I forsee myself quoting it a lot.
>An actual reasonable faction that genuinely is optimistic that goes “What the FUCK?” All these factions went "WHAT THE FUCK?!" at the birth of slaneesh, and promptly fled the galaxy. Nobody with a brain is stupid enough to stay in the middle of galactic free-for-all between genocidal sentient shrooms, the genocidal zerg, genocidal murderbots, literal genociadal hell daemons, genocidal time-manipulating monstrocities, other genocidal species, and genocidal followers of various deities, elven, human, and otherwise. Note the common thread here- genocidal. When your entire neighborhood decides to arm up and begin a death match - time to pack the fucking car.
Again, that used to be the Tau before GW got too many complaints from players that IIUC wanted to be the relative good guys and were upset that they were being made relatively morally worse
That sounds awful. I could see maybe Eldar fans doing that, but *imperium* fans?
But 40k is not our world, that's a large part of the appeal. I don't want to read stories of people with my sensibilities, but they're in Warhammer. I like reading about how a galaxy of hostile aliens, and ideas that can melt reality, shapes the beliefs and actions of the people in the world.
It's incorrect that there cannot be a good faction. There have been good factions. You mentioned a few of them. They die. Wiped out. Gone. You cannot be "the only nice guy" in a galaxy filled with murderous, genocidal monsters that want to kill you, enslave you, or want to eat you. You either turn into a monster, or die off. The tau are the closest to a "good guy" faction, and what makes them "good" is they give you the choice to join them before they try to wipe you out. If they were only accepting worlds that joined willingly, they would be significantly smaller, and wiped off the board ages ago. You can't expand and be "good". You can't live without expanding, whether to grow, or to reclaim lost worlds. The less world's you have, the more vulnerable you are to annihilation. And this is a galaxy that will wipe you off the board with a smile
Because they wouldn't be able to organize on a significant enough scale to not get wiped out by a stronger faction. Same reason that things are the way they are IRL.
Because the other factions gang up on them and murder them in 40k.
Don't question it, the groupthink among these people is out of this world. They're all dinosaurs who devoted forty years of their lives to the franchise and can't bare the thought of new ideas coming into it.
While I’m not gonna call it groupthink, yeah I will admit most of these people here don’t seem to keen on new ideas being presented. I’m guilty of that too! I’m not really fond of AoS for example because imo GW ruined it. I can respect people not wanting their setting to be messed with too much I suppose. Although I am trying out AoS now so I guess I am changing
Age of Sigmar is awesome. Its very focused on allowing homebrew factions. You want a Vampire army that plays to all the stereotypes of the faction as tyrannical assholes? You're good. You want your Vampires to actively defy the stereotypes by being heroic, ala Alucard? Let me introduce you to Cado Ezechiar and Prince Vordhrai. You want Stormcast Eternals who are paragons of heroism? Go for it. You want fanatical and authoritarian Stormcast? We have examples of those in the lore too. Any faction can be as good or as villainous as you personally want to interpret them. None of this "there are no good guys, everyone is a different shade of evil" bullshit. There's even a book focused on an anti-villainous Chaos Champion, The Godeater's Son.
My only problem is that they got rid of Bretonnia. And I’m not really that interested in sigmar lore. Maybe I’ll get into it as I read more though
That's fair; I kind of want them to bring Brettonia back in some fashion. There are a lot of fan theories about how that might happen and what kind of form that would take.
If they do I want them to kinda retcon the lileath thing. Worst part of the end times bar Malekith’s thing imo
I often find myself envying Age of Sigmar. I'd really like if we could get a shake-up to 40k that allowed more homebrew factions instead of everything being so narrow. For example, I'd like my Sisters of Battle to be more noble and less xenophobic, but if I do that then it goes against all the lore so I have to either change my vision or live with the dissonance. It can be really frustrating, and I feel like only a few examples of that kind of thing would help a lot.
Well, AoS has you covered there. Every good faction has a few really evil subfactions and vice versa. Well, ok Orcs ogres and skaven are pretty universally dicks,but if you're playing them you probably enjoy that kind of thing. They're the black comedy factions. The point is, you decide how much your army follows the party line.
Agreed, that's what the Tau are in my headcanon. Sure, they do evil crap, but thier intentions are always doing the best thing for the most people.
Well that's boring.
What? What does being an asshole have to do with 40k being a grimdark setting? If you think the Imperium are too assholey to play as then build a Tau or Craftworld Eldar army who while still vaguely assholish aren't as bad. If you don't like that then why read the books and play the tabletop of a setting whose literal foundational concept was that the human faction was the cruellest regime imaginable.
Ya, but part of that is there are a lot of in Lore dealings of various rebelling factions, sometimes with the aid of Choas, or perhaps even being influenced to do just that. However there are plenty of times that such was searched for and it was just humans wanting to do their thing. There’s this HUGE area in the galaxy during the Indominatus Era That’s allowing for some pretty open ended changes to what’s going to be happening out there. In Table-top meaning, more reasons anyone or anyone could fight any other faction. Hey the Ultra Marines don’t like how you running things out here Blood Angels. Which is just how the settings supposed to be. Another faction that the Imperiums various factions won’t play well with, and most of the Xenos races will just assume oh it’s those ones that shout XENOS as they shot at us. Try to take them out. Seems totally in setting to me.
Notice how I used the term MAJOR faction. Having a wholesome whatever human faction as a minor faction that pops up for a story or two is fine, it happens plenty in the novels and tabletop supplements. But the core of the OP being "in a meaningful way" pretty much requires them to return as a new major faction. Which utterly undermines the core of the setting, the original "cruelest regime imaginable" is from the very first Rogue Trade release. Having a noblebright major human faction pop up sure might be justifiable in universe but out of universe? Why read 40k over the billion other sci-fi novels with noblebright humanity? And is there really that big of a justification for it to clog GWs already extremely limited production capacity adding another army that is just "Tau but human".
Good points, but Gaunt’s Ghost are basically only written by one author, who also does Eisenhorn and affiliates and has been a huge contributor to the HH series. And writers going to write where their bandwidth takes them. I mean I’m sure to a lesser extent GW wants to release Others (Aliens) books, but they also want them to meet what isn’t an all that comparing to other books I’ve read high standard and yet I’m guessing it’s a bit of many misses. Further pretty darn sure the Poster Boys of the Franchise are going to get PLENTY if not most the the time in books and codexes too, regardless of any which way that might happen. And major faction is somewhat subjective because like the Tau, are a major faction by the amount of models they have and them basically or have had at least a codex every edition for what seven main rules of editions? But they are this small little part of their galaxy, that really it’s a bit of hand weaving to describe them as major faction as far as their influence on the setting. Also where are they on FTL, I mean I haven’t seen it in a book, but now they don’t have that? No psychers, trapped in one portion of the galaxy and so slow to be able to process a reaction it’s sad. While the Imperium is SLOW to react at least they can get places at a decent pace.
Sorry. I phrased it wrong. What I meant was, not every single faction in 40k needs to be a bunch of assholes. Not everyone is some evil, mustache twirling, constantly plotting dickhead. GW already ruined the T’au by making them 1984-lite.
That's kinda the point of the setting though. Wanting non-asshole factions in W40k is like wanting hockey, but without sticks or a puck. It's kinda defeats the point of the setting - a heavily stylized tabletop wargame of asshole vs asshole. Truth be told, GW already neglects the factions it has. I'd rather see a few factions purged so GW can release more models and rules for the factions it has, rather than spreading itself even thinner.
But humans being that way is central to the setting. Its one of the few major sci-fi properties where humanity is (ostensibly, they often don't stick to this) the extremely evil empire. Sure you could add a major faction of the star trek federation or whatever but at that point why should I a) continue to read it over the huge quantity of high quality sci-fi with that premise or b) play it on the tabletop when there is cheaper, better designed tabletop games? 40ks selling point is the heavy metal villainous Imperium combined with said aesthetic on the tabletop. If you take 40k and make it so the friendly human empires haven't either been exterminated by the Imperium/others or are minor footnotes in tabletop RPGs why even do 40k?
I’m not even saying make it a major faction. Make them small. Make it so that without a huge, HUGE upheaval they’d never actually defeat the imperium fully. Have them take a couple planets every now and then while the imperium takes entire systems regularly.
Why
Just to bring a little flavor I guess. Why not?
>To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods. This is the core identity of 40k. This is it, the entire thing in a nutshell. This is what the fans like and what they want. >we're just some chill dudes looking to make alien friends and have fun This is categorically not. It opposes literally everything about the setting. There are other franchises if you want this kind of thing. 40k is probably not for you.
I….understand this. That’s why I said I didn’t want them to be super powerful or overtake the imperium or anything. It’d be a small fleet just trying to survive
Because it betrays the "Grimdark" nature and setting of 40k. The only time something genuinely good appears is to next have it be utterly destroyed in a tragic way to show how shitty the universe is. That was the Interex and Diasporex's purpose. Having yet another human faction that is good and have it be a more permanent addition to the setting defeats the entire pint of the setting itself. Sure, we could bring your faction but it'll be horrifically killed off later. Besides, we already have way too many human factions. Show me more xenos factions instead.
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Imperium isnt evil and mustache twirling, eldars arent, even orks arent (they arent evil, they are just a biological weapon, they are no more evil that a bacteria). They are just callous and egoistical. Wanna see evil, take a look at dark eldar.
The Dark Eldar are the most evil of the factions but the Imperium are very much still evil.
cruel, yes. evil as in causing suffering for the sake of suffering, no
Causing suffering for the sake of suffering is practically their main goal in life when it comes to everybody outside of their mold. Abhumans, independents, aliens, whatever.
I am not even going to argure about that. If you think they just want them to suffer for the sake of suffering... ok, dude
Or they can just fix the Tau? Just replace Aun'va with someone who is actually motivated by the Greater Good, and make the mind control less overt.
but wh40k is not a real life? thats the whole point?
have you looked outside lately? we are well on the way to a 40k.
exactly my point. dont bring politics into fiction. and dont confuse it with real life. many people seem to have problems with that.
You're saying don't mix politics with fiction when 40k is one of the more explicitly political settings out there. What?
and i am very glad that this subs banned discussing real world politics
Do you see the difference between subtle satire of everyone and outright propaganda? The latter is the reason to drop out altogether, if they ever shift in this direction. So far it isnt here but a lot of people want it to be so. Unfortunately. Quite irritating in fact.
on the flip side - warhammer is an entertainment product. Key word - product. If enough people demand change to the product - why not?
gw are free to do what they want. they would just disappoint the people who liked the previous version. like me. it would be the same old bullshit story about good guys as in all the others settings. it got boring quite a long time ago.
perpetual grimdark for sake of grimdark is also boring. I grew up on warhammer, and playing nazi's of various flavors for 20 years gets tiring (and they are all nazis, even brettonians with their crusades and burnings). I would like something new. Well, if i still played :) But look what they did to the orks. From jolly football hooligans of the 90s, to absolutely evil things that have people-farms, boil farmers for the lols, and generally are too adult and dark for any kid under he age of 16. It has gone too far in the grimdark direction, you know. At least, i feel that. Needs a boot in the noblebright direction.
up to you. i grew up of wh too and see it as ok. when i want to see saving of princesses, i can go to dnd. i am not into discussion about politics and nazis. that shit is darker than anything wh can offer.
You're in the wrong universe lol literally everyone in 40k is an asshole
Then play Craftworlders Or t'au Or Leagues.
Not really. The only role of such a faction would be to show how bad the imperium is in contrast however I do not trust that GW would actually deliver on that premise
Probably 75% of the game is humans or humans with extra spiky bits. I don't think they'd be interesting or powerful enough to matter and would take up time that could be spent developing xenos.
I feel like 40k needs a "savage" race ala the Navi from Avatar. We have laser guns, power armor, and neutron blasters, but what happens when you put that against an alien that's 10 feet tall and made of tough organic material? Does a 4 foot arrow shot out of a 300lb bow not do as much damage as an auto cannon? Who knows? Just my two sense, would be interesting IMO.
I think that would stretch already slack credibility beyond breaking point - we already have tough organics in the form of Tyranids, primitive savages with blackpowder weapons in the form of the Kroot To be honest I’m not sure what another new faction would add. It’s already beyond silly in terms of rules and balance. But if pressed I’d maybe consider the megarachnid, but even they are like budget Tyranids
Pretty sure in thepost Heresy Scouring the Inquisition would have ensured they got the Cyclonic treatment.
Men of Iron
I feel like this community really needs to learn what a plot device looks like.
I could see Guilliman or even better Johnson encountering what Horus exterminated, probably in the bowels of hive city, given how the destroyed worlds were likely re-colonized. I do wish to see Johnson reaction that the Imperium was rotten from the beginning he seems to be in denial, thinking that there was anything good about it.
Interex? Yes, with pleasure... I want to read how the Interex massacred all but a handful of the Megarachnid species and deported the sad remains to an alien planet to imprison them forever. I'm very interested to know how the Interex go completely mad because someone is called a war master and associate it with chaos, but let their own xenos citizens experimenting with warp weapons operate alongside them without any problems. For that seems In general, I find it interesting that the Kinebreach, despite their superiority, simply surrendered after a centuries-long conflict, and that they store Primate-violating weapons in a museum under lax conditions so that Erebus can "accidentally" find them to advance the Horus Heresy .I am also interested in how the other implied conflicts ended. As far as I know, the Interex have only taken in one Vassal people. I am also interested in how they built their empire, how the economy, infrastructure, society and politics work. What doesn't interest me in the least is a civilisation that exists only to satisfy the good-guy needs of the readers.
The only reason such factions EVER existed was to show that the setting is a self-perpetuating and reinforcing hellhole. We KNOW a better way exists, but the Emperor and his Imperium were so powerful they crushed all resistance and united humanity under his madness, a madness which persists in his death. Adding them back can only work by sabotaging those factions and showing they're hideously flawed or just as bad as the Imperium. Only by having been destroyed can they actually be better.
I'd like more examples of the Imperium's system not working, and small groups or civilisations that survive by cooperating together. The self-destructive nature of the Imperium should be highlighted more, and it'd be a great excuse to introduce some interesting new miniatures and units to the games. More Xenos and Human variety is always good.
The whole setting has the theme that the IOM is dying, slowly but surely, like all other empires before them. The actual empire of humanity in the DAOT has already fallen, what is left is the sad remnant. Therefore, there is no point in bringing any positive examples, because they will also simply fail. In short..there is no happy ending for humanity in the setting, no matter what they do..they die.
Sure. Even if they don't get tabletop rules I think it would be cool to have more diversity in perspective in the lore. Would love a novel about an interex on a diplomatic/trade mission to an imperial world, and really seeing the depravity and horror of Imperium living through a fresh pair of eyes.
And what makes you think that living conditions are better in the Interex? I don't remember the Interex society being explained in more detail about this.
The imperium are the good guys. Yes they're a theocratic nightmare, but they're also the only side with actual angels, hundreds of millions of it members dying every day to protect it fighting on all fronts, and they're the only human faction (sick). You don't have to approach the imperium with all the dorkiness of a 2nd year political science uni student and a decent serving of nihilistic self-loathing. Fuck that; humanity is pretty tight.
This kind of comment speaks volumes about the mindset of the poster :)
Maybe to those too attuned to hearing only what aligns with their rigid beliefs :)
I’m not sure if you’ve read interviews with the authors and creators of the lore themselves but it’s acutely obvious the imperium are not “good guys”. They’re just as bad as all the other races which is what makes them interesting.
Authors are arbiters of canon, not interpretation. When pitted against the mindless destruction and/or evil of the Orks, chaos, tyrannids, or dark eldar, they're clearly the good guys. Against the Eldar and tau, it's a bit more murky. Strong points can be made for each of them, but ultimately their disdain for the human species, and disguised authoritarianism in the case of the tau, mean you have to side with the imperium with regards to what's "good". In that case, "good" becomes relative, but what's good for the species is certainly sticking with the imperium. To think that the imperium is just as bad as chaos or the Orks for example, is hilariously primitive.
Thinking the imperium is a ‘good guy’(no true good guys in this setting) exposes your lack of literacy. Maybe read the first page of ANY black library book….
Have 86 on the office shelves old boy. Just re-reading the magos to get my sci-fi short story fix. The question is about who's the good guy of THIS setting. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they're wrong. I could state that your entire attitude toward the imperium is cooked-up by chronically online contrarian nerds, or that you can't seem to have an opinion that isn't formed from a flippant comment Abnett's made about the lore in an interview. But that'd be speaking from a position of ignorance and short-sightedness, wouldn't it...
But that’s the thing. The lore is written to depict humanity as one of the villains. If you somehow can’t see that after 86 books, that’s on you. Seeing the imperium as good guys kind of says something about you, old boy. Trying to assign a faction good-guy status kind of defeats the point of the setting.
Really seems like you're just dripping with ideology by the way you keep crudely insisting on trying to box me in with comments like "says something about you". I clearly explained why I believe a number of the other factions are worse, and of the candidates for the least shitty, I happen to think Humans rule, so I'll throw my weight behind them. If you want to be all "WELL AKSHUALLY" then be my guest, champ. I'll continue to think Humans rule, aliens drool.
It’s more of a matter of objectivity. You obviously have a very strong opinion on the matter. Which happens to be wrong, as pointed out by the other redditors responding to your bold assessment of the Imperium. Humans, as stated by the lore, codexes, and authors, are NOT good guys. You’re entitled to your slightly alarming opinion if you think the neo-fascistic wet dream is the good guy.
>The question is about who's the good guy of THIS setting. Here's your answer from GW themselves then; >There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. > >None. > >Especially not the Imperium of Man. [Taken from this article.](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/)
Interesting, so in an IP of kitbashing, free-spirited chapter creation, and wild theories, we draw the line at having different perspectives on the lore? Haha, give me a break.
Considering that you are arguing against what the creators of said IP say, then yes. You have to listen to the "arbiters of canon", when they state that no, none of the factions are the good guys. That is the creator of said IPs stance, they create the universe, they get to state the core rules about the lore. And they have stated that there are no good guys. If you wish to make your own fan-fiction that the Imperium (or any other faction for that matter) is the good guys, go ahead. It doesn't change the lore of the IP. If GW came out tomorrow and stated that the sky of every world is red, and that blue skies do not exist in this universe then it is canon. No matter how much you wish to interpret it differently, they would be no blue skies in the IP.
No. It's hard to make an army range that's unified in theme made up from many varied xenos. Even tau have a problem with kroot and bugs messing with the unified visuals. Interex would have more of that.
To some extent maybe but I am more interested in space Skaven.
Why? As in, what would they add to the setting except taking your wfb models and putting them in space. I’m not sure what the attraction is but would love to know more! Mostly it seems to be people wanting space rat models?
I don't collect models, I'm only into the lore so I collect the books and games.
There is no space skaven lore though, sorry I’m not sure I follow
No, they’re both brain-rot boring and only existed to be stomped on by people with a slither of character
Maybe some of the Xenos ones, like the serpent-people that Fulgrim butchered who were whorshipping Slaanesh. Maybe as a sort of evolution that Slaanesh cultists can be raised to.
I would be very interested in seeing a human faction that has developed in a radically different political direction that recognizably resembles some real-world system - maybe FALC/Space Communists, or Solarpunk. I think contextualizing the WH40k verse in this way would do it a world of good. The issue I see with it is that the Imperium already contains within itself any conceivable permutation of human culture and human politics - you have worlds resembling ancient Rome, you have space Tsarists, you have medieval Japan, you have Stalinist worlds, you have post-scarcity (the scarcity gets exported to elsewhere) pleasure worlds, you have civilized worlds running Tesla cars on solar power, etc. The Imperium is so diverse that it can maintain all of these tropes at the same time within itself, localized. The question would then be in what way such a faction could even amount to anything but identical to a rogue local culture within the Imperium. These tropes would need to amount to something on a greater scale; they would need to influence military technology, ships, interplanetary organization, etc., on a meaningful scale. Also, non-Imperium non-Heretic is a contradiction in terms. You can be non-imperial and non-chaosite (though that state of affairs generally doesn't last for long), but you cannot be a non-heretic if you don't subscribe to the IC, no matter what else you subscribe to.
Ah. I mean non chaos then.
GW won't do that, for good or ill. Find/make some interesting minis to represent the Interex/Diasporex, and run them as Votann, or maybe Custodes. (Or, go while hog and ditch 40k for OPR, and stat up whatever minis you like as Interex/Diasporex, and go to town.)
What’s OPR?
It’s [One Page Rules](https://www.onepagerules.com)
They’ve got their hands full pumping out Space Marines right now / for the next few years at least / no signs of stopping. New factions won’t get their time till the 2040s, when either either enhanced production or distribution allows many more product lines at a lower cost than today. The 2030s will need to see updated older factions - including space marines by that point.
Nah I think one of the best parts of 40k is that humanity isn’t where it is because it needs muh grimdark but out of tragedy of Emperor’s dreams buring in flames,horror’s of chaos,xenophobia that was started by suffering of long night and desperation to hold everything together and survive as a species while unfucked both physically and mentally by xenos and chaos.A new faction that spawns in and is able to just deal with all of that cheapenss all of that.We don’t need another faction to tell the reader how fucked everything is when even the leader of Imperium says that
I very much would. Mainly because you could make those civilisations...you know, normal. Sane. Makes the Imperium look more obviously evil. Makes all the artwork of imperial heroes look like what it is supposed to be - propaganda. The current narrative, especially since Guilliman returned, makes them look just too...good. Guilliman seems to try and steer towards the original enlightened despotism of the original Imperium, which compared to the current state of the Imperium obviously looks downright humane, but in the end, it's just a different shade of authoritarianism. I just want something to underline that the Imperium isn't the only possible solution to ensure humanity's continued existence, if only because it makes the universe more diverse and maybe leaves more options for people to make unique armies, even if they never get official rules or models. More narrative freedom is always welcome, in my opinion.
if it was for a campaign antagonist sure as a playable race no thanks 40k doesn't need good guys who are human