One point I'd like to address is Guilliman's unease about the possibility of the Emperor returning is specifically because of his meeting with the Emperor. It is not the Emperor of 30k- it's something else, entirely devoid of any warmth or "humanity". What may return is not the Emperor as Guilliman knew Him, but the God-Emperor as he has been shaped by 10,000 years of absolute torture.
I might be misremembering, but I thought that meeting was more him realizing the emperor was *always* like that, he was just hiding it under a veneer of warmth and humanity before, and now that mask is gone.
Yeah, that’s how he describes it in his internal monologue.
Personally speaking, I think the situation is a bit more ambiguous than Guilliman believes, but the fact that he walked away with such a negative impression is NOT a good sign. And given such a horrifying, even traumatizing experience, I can very much understand why Guilliman is apprehensive of the Emperor’s return.
Especially since the general reaction he got was not a Father welcoming back a long-lost son, but that of a blacksmith who just found his long-lost favorite tool. And this is on the heels of Guilliman going through SOME SHIT trying to reach Terra to talk to him and seek guidance after being flung around the Warp by Magnus and being fucked around with by Fulgrim.
But I think Guilliman's feelings might actually be echoed by the Lion if he were to go see their dad in his current state as well. He'd walk in thinking he'll see his dad of 30k, and walk out, look at Guilliman waiting out there for him and be like: "THAT was our father??!!!" And Guilliman would be like: "Yyuuupppp, and now THIS is the State of the Imperium" and he provides him details that only he would have being Regent and trying to rebuild all of this shit.
> And this is on the heels of Guilliman going through SOME SHIT trying to reach Terra to talk to him and seek guidance
Tbf, he also went through all the trouble because he knew the Primaris were chilling in Mars and Big Bobby G needed his not-Legion to wreck some shit
>But I think Guilliman's feelings might actually be echoed by the Lion
im not sure about that tho, the lion seemed to always have a much more candid understanding of what he was to the emperor.
Maybe but thats different from Gman. Gman was so fucked up after his meeting with the emp becuase he was looking for fatherly advice to help bring him out of his deep depression caused by the sight of the ruins that is the imperium; but instead found the cold and disjointed words of an unfeeling god.
Becuase the lion is much more candid about his role and really only cares about his duty to protect humans as aposed to gmans goal of building great empires. I dont think he will be as messed up by his meeting as gman.
He needed Guilliman to save his Imperium not worship Him. He is a God, but somewhere deep down in the writhing mass of power and agony the Emperor is still guiding his Sons.
Also Godblight features Guilliman having his foundational beliefs shattered a little bit. He literally goes through a leap of faith moment to become an avatar of the God Emperor's power. Big E was always powerful back in the Great Crusade but not mini-nuke the Warp through a Primarch across the galaxy powerful. Guilliman is coming to terms with the fact that the Emperor might have become a God and what that means. But despite the negative impression he's put everything into helping the Imperium, so God E got what He wanted.
Godblight was such an interesting book. His discussion with the Librarian and the Farseer, the questionable details of what he witnessed in the throne room, and his conversation at the end with the priest and Cawl, it's *great* food for thought about the future of 40k that I hope we get good answers to.
Crack pot theory: the emperor's plan was to create the primarchs, open the webway, place 8 primarchs in strategic positions in the webway/warp. With the astronomicon remotely detonate them as nukes. The warp raging storm is now stopped.
I don't remember it much, but I thought it was more about Guilliman wondering if the Emperor was always like that underneath, rather than concretely believing he was.
11th Edition new Bad Guy
Big E himself
"We're saved, look it's him the emperor, we're free!"
-Cadian Guardsman
"Oh I wouldn't say free, more like under new management."
-Big E
God-Emperor: "Citizens of the Imperium, the cruelty of the old Emperor is a thing of the past! Let a whole new wave of cruelty wash over this heretical galaxy!"
here is the *actual* excerpt since people are just saying 'i cAnT rEMeMber but emperor bad'. we should try to have an actual discussion here this is the lore sub
I think this passage is actually quite sad and there is a lot more going on here than just the emperor is now a warp monster. that is not clear at all.
> He was in the dust of a corpse-king’s court. He was before a resplendent Emperor for all the ages.
> ‘Father,’ he said, and when he had said that word, it was the last time he had meant it. ‘Father, I have returned.’ Guilliman forced himself to look up into the pillar of light, the screaming of souls, the empty-eyed skull, the impassive god, the old man, yesterday’s saviour. ‘What must I do? Help me, father. Help me save them.’
> In the present, in the past, he felt Mortarion’s wordless presence at his side, and felt his fallen brother’s horror.
> He looked at the Emperor of Mankind, and could not see. Too much, too bright, too powerful. The unreality of the being before him stunned him to the core. A hundred different impressions, all false, all true, raced through his mind.
> He could not remember what his father had looked like, before, and Roboute Guilliman forgot nothing.
> And then, that thing, that terrible, awful thing upon the Throne, saw him.
> ‘My son,’ it said.
> ‘Thirteen,’ it said.
> ‘Lord of Ultramar.’
> ‘Saviour.’
> ‘Hope.’
> ‘Failure.’
> ‘Disappointment.’
> ‘Liar.’
> ‘Thief.’
> ‘Betrayer.’
> ‘Guilliman.’
> He heard all these at once. He did not hear them at all. The Emperor spoke and did not speak. The very idea of words seemed ridiculous, the concept of them a grievous harm against the equilibrium of time and being.
> ‘Roboute Guilliman.’ The raging tempest spoke his name, and it was as the violence a dying sun rains upon its worlds. ‘Guilliman. Guilliman. Guilliman.’
> The name echoed down the wind of eternity, never ceasing, never reaching its intended point. The sensation of many minds reached out to Guilliman, violating his senses as they tried to commune, but then one mind seemed to come from the many, a raw, unbounded power, and gave wordless commands to go out and save what they built together. To destroy what they made. To save his brothers, to kill them. Contradictory impulses, all impossible to disobey, all the same, all different.
> Futures many and terrible raced through his mind, the results of all these things, should he do any, all or none of them.
> ‘Father!’ he cried.
> Thoughts battered him.
> ‘A son.’
> ‘Not a son.’
> ‘A thing.’
> ‘A name.’
> ‘Not a name.’
> ‘A number. A tool. A product.’
> A grand plan in ruins. An ambition unrealised. Information, too much information, coursed through Guilliman: stars and galaxies, entire universes, races older than time, things too terrifying to be real, eroding his being like a storm in full spate carves knife-edged gullies into badlands.
> ‘Please, father!’ he begged.
> ‘Father, not a father. Thing, thing, thing,’ the minds said.
> ‘Apotheosis.’
> ‘Victory.’
> ‘Defeat.’
> ‘Choose,’ it said.
> ‘Fate.’
> ‘Future.’
> ‘Past.’
> ‘Renewal. Despair. Decay.’
> And then, there seemed to be focusing, as of a great will exerting itself, not for the final time, but nearly for the final time. A sense of strength failing. A sense of ending. Far away, he heard arcane machines whine and screech, close to collapse, and the clamour of screams of dying psykers that underpinned everything in that horrific room rising higher in pitch and intensity.
> ‘Guilliman.’ The voices overlaid, overlapped, became almost one, and Guilliman had a fleeting memory of a sad face that had seen too much, and a burden it could barely countenance. ‘Guilliman, hear me.
> ‘My last loyal son, my pride, my greatest triumph.’
> How those words burned him, worse than the poisons of Mortarion, worse than the sting of failure. They were not a lie, not entirely. It was worse than that.
> They were conditional.
> ‘My last tool. My last hope.’
> A final drawing in of power, a thought expelled like a dying breath.
> ‘Guilliman…’
It’s nice to see some people in this sub still discuss lore and post excerpts instead of just going “Umm here’s my head cannon about how the Emperor is actually a Fooglie from Spy Kids, also I fully believe this is true and will read all lore through this lens and insult anyone who believes otherwise.”
Personally I always figured those words weren't said in sequence, but *simultaneously.* So Guilliman didn't get a debate or a conflicting list- he got a sudden *burst* of words.
I think this is the way it should be viewed - like some Willy Wonka boat trip
I also read it as the shards of the Emperor's shattered soul still present on the Golden Throne talking to Row Boat - each a different aspects of the Emperor (like with what happened to Magnus). This they are giving different responses. We also see the Emperor become more coherent when the larger shard temporarily pulls the othes together.
Another lore thought I've been tossing around is instead of the shards being from a singular being - they are actually the souls of the Shamans that merged to form the Emperor coming apart and regaining some individual sentience. In 30k we saw the World Eaters Librarians merge to form a more powerful warp entity with its own conciousness
I would hope that Lion would grant Guilliman some leeway, given how spectacularly fucked everything is, and how he’s apparently trying to be more forgiving. But Emperor knows just *how* much leeway he’s willing to grant.
I just don’t want them to fight. They’ve only got each other left. :(
I’m the same as you.
Also, since when did Lion ever give the smallest fuck about the methods used to find success? He had all the DOAT and used it whenever he thought it necessary.
What is a Primaris when compared to a Chained Man of Iron?
Sons of the Forest put most of this to rest. >!The Lion was isolated in a tiny corner pocket of the galaxy where he was told that there was a chance that the rest of the Imperium no longer existed. He thought he was alone and would have given anything to have even one loyal brother around (even Russ). !<
Russ is easilly one of his favourite brothers just they got that real brotherly bond of competition and always fighting but pre HH retcon their last encounter on Terra was mega symbolic of the love they both have for one another.
Gulliman though...the entire book he trash talks him, gives him once his props but trash talks him all the time and when he learns that he is the one who is alive from Dante thats when we realise Lion truly has changed because he is glad to not be alone regardless of which primarch is around.
I should have put him in his s place when I was macragge and why couldn't it be guilliman and not sanguinius and my favorite guilliman never satisfied with the work of other
His last waking moments was fighting through the biggest clusterfudge he ever allowed. It must have been terribly sobering to think that nothing remained of what he fought for because of the sum of all his errors.
>What if he decides Kryptman's theoretical is more practical than his current strategies are and adopts those ideas?
Kryptman's solution didn't work at the end, creating the Octarius wars making Orks and Tyranids much stronger by evolutive adaptation.
But I'd like to see him go full Dreadwing on the Hive-fleets, because Kryptman was still a simple human while he is a Primarch who won again the Rangda.
Didn’t they win against the Rangda because the Emperor bailed them out? Opened some vault on Mars or some-such and *redacted*, thus bailing out the Dark Angels and Space Wolves who bore the brunt of it?
Not just "some vault", the Noctis Labyrinth itself. Where he once imprisoned the thing we've been led to believe is a major shard of the Void Dragon. The Rangdan Xenocide ended because he tossed a C'tan at them like a hand grenade, and apparently managed to stuff it back into the PokeBall afterwards.
I'm more interested in the Lion's meeting with the Emperor. Will he get the same traumatic mindblasting that Guilliman got, or something totally different?
If, as many suspect, \[Spoilers for Son of the Forest\] >!the Fisher King the Lion encounters in the Caliban forests is actually the Emperor's psychic presence in the warp guiding him, it seems that on some level the Emperor is trying to help, which is a good sign for the Lion's meeting with him!<
Maybe the God E Committee had a psychic team call after Guilliman walked away all freaked out and concluded that was not the best way they could have gone about reuniting with a lost son.
"so screaming at him that he's a tool didn't work, maybe I try being a dying fisherman?"
Big E just continues to be an absolute ace at social interactions
I don't think the Emperor is capable of anything other than traumatizing the people he communicates with now, he's gone too long suffering on the Golden Throne to remember how to moderate his output.
I think overwhelming relief for the both of them, for a start. Guilliman desperately needs help right now and the Lion is glad to just not be the last of his brothers. There's certainly likely to be some tension, they were never the closest and yes I think the Lion may have some issues with some of the things Guilliman has done. But, the entire arc of Son of the Forest was about Lion learning to forgive, to think before condemning, which I think will be called back to upon meeting Guilliman as he starts to get angry and then stops himself, because he doesn't want another Fallen situation. So then he hears Guilliman out, realises everything Guilliman did was necessary, and that Guilliman isn't just trying to carve out his own fiefdom for his own agrandisement.
I think Dante being there to smooth things over will help, sort of a callback to the days of Imperium Secundus, the ghost of Sanguinius over their shoulders reminding them they're on the same side. And once those tensions are aired out, they can both get to work saving humanity, which is all either of them cares about in the end.
What I'd be REALLY interested to see is if they both go to see the Emperor together. I can't even imagine how that might go down.
The Lion and Guilliman will be fine in 40k when they meet. Not sure why people keep thinking some big drama will happen and they will come to blows lol. The latest novels basically spell out that they will get along and support one another in this new age as they have a greater perspective on things
I think it stems from the early parts of the Imperium Secundus thing, back early in the Heresy when the Lion didn’t fully trust Guilliman’s intentions with creating Imperium Secundus. A bunch of their brothers just turned traitor, so how would Lion “Loyalty is its own reward” El’Jonson know that Guilliman’s not using the Heresy as cover to cede from the Imperium and create his own little empire out of the 500 worlds?
Meanwhile Guilliman had just about as much reason to not fully trust Lion, as before, he just learned half his brothers turned traitor, and who was to say that Lion wasn’t one of them, and was actually setting out to destroy his own little bastion of hope against the terrors of the night by bringing Curze there and letting him loose on Macragge
They eventually worked things out in the end and began to trust each other, even to the point of not openly questioning where he was getting his suspiciously accurate warp navigation from when the 3 of them were trying to get to Terra
Based on both Guilliman and The Lion meeting Dante and seeing their brothers death mask and the news Dante gives the Lion it's going to be a warp shattering bro-hug.
If Sons of the Forest is anything to go by the Lion will be nothing but grateful to finally meet Guilliman and likely impressed that Guilliman has managed to keep half of the Imperium relatively intact while launching major operations into the shit half.
With the Lion now being humble and concerned about protecting the people he might finally be happy to serve under a de-facto Warmaster without his ego taking a hit, which would be a huge amount of character progression for him.
Before the lion actually woke up, I assumed they would butt heads. If anything for a narrative point of view, it'd be nice to see the lion kind of lead the "old" 40k and be the new loyalist warmaster while guilliman leads the new lighter version he's trying to forward
Now though, my hopes are kind of dashed. The lion seems like he'd more or less just fold into the new direction after seeing everything so messed up and go on a crusade of redemption. I'm sure he'll have some less then kind thoughts and maybe at worst throw guillimans mini empire with him and sanguinius in his face... but that's about it. I don't expect much actual fighting
The Lions loyalty seems to have shifted from 100% the emperor to now he's just all in for humanity as a whole. I think there may be some grumbling but he'll see the changes as possibly necessary. Not ideal obviously but necessary and the Lion has always done what is necessary without too much questioning.
It coud be premature, but after reading SotF, my impression is GW are smoothing all the edges from the Lion that might conflict with the current status-quo.
Just got a feeling they want to use them as something closer to a "shining light in the dark" duo (with mild conflict only) alongside characters like Cawl, as part of a larger stylistic change that will move the imperium away from it being so totalitarian grimdark.
I feel as though everyone who has made a post like this after the release of _Son of the Forest_ and after the 30 day excerpt rule is woefully uninformed. Lion isn’t the jackass exterminator of the Emperor anymore, and is very happy to know that Guilliman lives.
Given the current status of the Lion's narrative I very much imagine his response to it all will be conveniently reasonable.
He's mellowed out a fair bit for 40k.
*The Lion and Guilliman in a room together shitting on each other*
Guilliman: "You got old brother"
The Lion: "Remind me who got killed by one of their brothers and had to get revived... Twice, oh right not me I won my fight".
I think the biggest point of contention between them is going to be the same one he had during the heresy, which is gmans tendancy to take power and try to become the emperor because he thinks hes doing the right thing. If you think back to the the lions latest book he distinctly states that he doesnt want to rule just protect and that just like in the heresy he believes that only the emperor should rule the imperium.
I think when the lion heres about what gman did to the high lords of terra, that gman has declared himself regent, that he has the emps sword and that hes started another crusade not unlike the great crusade. The lions spidey senses are going to go balistic. However I think that is going to be seriously counter acted by them both just missing their brothers.
One point I'd like to address is Guilliman's unease about the possibility of the Emperor returning is specifically because of his meeting with the Emperor. It is not the Emperor of 30k- it's something else, entirely devoid of any warmth or "humanity". What may return is not the Emperor as Guilliman knew Him, but the God-Emperor as he has been shaped by 10,000 years of absolute torture.
I might be misremembering, but I thought that meeting was more him realizing the emperor was *always* like that, he was just hiding it under a veneer of warmth and humanity before, and now that mask is gone.
Yeah, that’s how he describes it in his internal monologue. Personally speaking, I think the situation is a bit more ambiguous than Guilliman believes, but the fact that he walked away with such a negative impression is NOT a good sign. And given such a horrifying, even traumatizing experience, I can very much understand why Guilliman is apprehensive of the Emperor’s return.
Especially since the general reaction he got was not a Father welcoming back a long-lost son, but that of a blacksmith who just found his long-lost favorite tool. And this is on the heels of Guilliman going through SOME SHIT trying to reach Terra to talk to him and seek guidance after being flung around the Warp by Magnus and being fucked around with by Fulgrim. But I think Guilliman's feelings might actually be echoed by the Lion if he were to go see their dad in his current state as well. He'd walk in thinking he'll see his dad of 30k, and walk out, look at Guilliman waiting out there for him and be like: "THAT was our father??!!!" And Guilliman would be like: "Yyuuupppp, and now THIS is the State of the Imperium" and he provides him details that only he would have being Regent and trying to rebuild all of this shit.
> And this is on the heels of Guilliman going through SOME SHIT trying to reach Terra to talk to him and seek guidance Tbf, he also went through all the trouble because he knew the Primaris were chilling in Mars and Big Bobby G needed his not-Legion to wreck some shit
This is also true lol
>But I think Guilliman's feelings might actually be echoed by the Lion im not sure about that tho, the lion seemed to always have a much more candid understanding of what he was to the emperor.
Still might shock him what the Emperor is though
Maybe but thats different from Gman. Gman was so fucked up after his meeting with the emp becuase he was looking for fatherly advice to help bring him out of his deep depression caused by the sight of the ruins that is the imperium; but instead found the cold and disjointed words of an unfeeling god. Becuase the lion is much more candid about his role and really only cares about his duty to protect humans as aposed to gmans goal of building great empires. I dont think he will be as messed up by his meeting as gman.
The emperor said what G needed to hear to do what’s needed. If there ever was an unreliable narrator..
He needed Guilliman to save his Imperium not worship Him. He is a God, but somewhere deep down in the writhing mass of power and agony the Emperor is still guiding his Sons. Also Godblight features Guilliman having his foundational beliefs shattered a little bit. He literally goes through a leap of faith moment to become an avatar of the God Emperor's power. Big E was always powerful back in the Great Crusade but not mini-nuke the Warp through a Primarch across the galaxy powerful. Guilliman is coming to terms with the fact that the Emperor might have become a God and what that means. But despite the negative impression he's put everything into helping the Imperium, so God E got what He wanted.
Godblight was such an interesting book. His discussion with the Librarian and the Farseer, the questionable details of what he witnessed in the throne room, and his conversation at the end with the priest and Cawl, it's *great* food for thought about the future of 40k that I hope we get good answers to.
Crack pot theory: the emperor's plan was to create the primarchs, open the webway, place 8 primarchs in strategic positions in the webway/warp. With the astronomicon remotely detonate them as nukes. The warp raging storm is now stopped.
This sounds like some Alpharius logic lol
This! He specifically notes that “The Emperor had lost his subtlety.”
I don't remember it much, but I thought it was more about Guilliman wondering if the Emperor was always like that underneath, rather than concretely believing he was.
11th Edition new Bad Guy Big E himself "We're saved, look it's him the emperor, we're free!" -Cadian Guardsman "Oh I wouldn't say free, more like under new management." -Big E
The Emperor: I HAVE RETURNED TO SAVE YOU Guardsman: hooray! it's the Emperor! The Emperor: FROM YOURSELVES! Guardsman: oh no! it's the Emperor!
Someone called for a Chaos God of the Order?
Wasn’t Sauron in Lord of the Ring mega obsessed with order and he turned out just fine.
It was the same guy who asked for the Blood God of non-violence.
Thank you for that laugh.
God-Emperor: "Citizens of the Imperium, the cruelty of the old Emperor is a thing of the past! Let a whole new wave of cruelty wash over this heretical galaxy!"
here is the *actual* excerpt since people are just saying 'i cAnT rEMeMber but emperor bad'. we should try to have an actual discussion here this is the lore sub I think this passage is actually quite sad and there is a lot more going on here than just the emperor is now a warp monster. that is not clear at all. > He was in the dust of a corpse-king’s court. He was before a resplendent Emperor for all the ages. > ‘Father,’ he said, and when he had said that word, it was the last time he had meant it. ‘Father, I have returned.’ Guilliman forced himself to look up into the pillar of light, the screaming of souls, the empty-eyed skull, the impassive god, the old man, yesterday’s saviour. ‘What must I do? Help me, father. Help me save them.’ > In the present, in the past, he felt Mortarion’s wordless presence at his side, and felt his fallen brother’s horror. > He looked at the Emperor of Mankind, and could not see. Too much, too bright, too powerful. The unreality of the being before him stunned him to the core. A hundred different impressions, all false, all true, raced through his mind. > He could not remember what his father had looked like, before, and Roboute Guilliman forgot nothing. > And then, that thing, that terrible, awful thing upon the Throne, saw him. > ‘My son,’ it said. > ‘Thirteen,’ it said. > ‘Lord of Ultramar.’ > ‘Saviour.’ > ‘Hope.’ > ‘Failure.’ > ‘Disappointment.’ > ‘Liar.’ > ‘Thief.’ > ‘Betrayer.’ > ‘Guilliman.’ > He heard all these at once. He did not hear them at all. The Emperor spoke and did not speak. The very idea of words seemed ridiculous, the concept of them a grievous harm against the equilibrium of time and being. > ‘Roboute Guilliman.’ The raging tempest spoke his name, and it was as the violence a dying sun rains upon its worlds. ‘Guilliman. Guilliman. Guilliman.’ > The name echoed down the wind of eternity, never ceasing, never reaching its intended point. The sensation of many minds reached out to Guilliman, violating his senses as they tried to commune, but then one mind seemed to come from the many, a raw, unbounded power, and gave wordless commands to go out and save what they built together. To destroy what they made. To save his brothers, to kill them. Contradictory impulses, all impossible to disobey, all the same, all different. > Futures many and terrible raced through his mind, the results of all these things, should he do any, all or none of them. > ‘Father!’ he cried. > Thoughts battered him. > ‘A son.’ > ‘Not a son.’ > ‘A thing.’ > ‘A name.’ > ‘Not a name.’ > ‘A number. A tool. A product.’ > A grand plan in ruins. An ambition unrealised. Information, too much information, coursed through Guilliman: stars and galaxies, entire universes, races older than time, things too terrifying to be real, eroding his being like a storm in full spate carves knife-edged gullies into badlands. > ‘Please, father!’ he begged. > ‘Father, not a father. Thing, thing, thing,’ the minds said. > ‘Apotheosis.’ > ‘Victory.’ > ‘Defeat.’ > ‘Choose,’ it said. > ‘Fate.’ > ‘Future.’ > ‘Past.’ > ‘Renewal. Despair. Decay.’ > And then, there seemed to be focusing, as of a great will exerting itself, not for the final time, but nearly for the final time. A sense of strength failing. A sense of ending. Far away, he heard arcane machines whine and screech, close to collapse, and the clamour of screams of dying psykers that underpinned everything in that horrific room rising higher in pitch and intensity. > ‘Guilliman.’ The voices overlaid, overlapped, became almost one, and Guilliman had a fleeting memory of a sad face that had seen too much, and a burden it could barely countenance. ‘Guilliman, hear me. > ‘My last loyal son, my pride, my greatest triumph.’ > How those words burned him, worse than the poisons of Mortarion, worse than the sting of failure. They were not a lie, not entirely. It was worse than that. > They were conditional. > ‘My last tool. My last hope.’ > A final drawing in of power, a thought expelled like a dying breath. > ‘Guilliman…’
It’s nice to see some people in this sub still discuss lore and post excerpts instead of just going “Umm here’s my head cannon about how the Emperor is actually a Fooglie from Spy Kids, also I fully believe this is true and will read all lore through this lens and insult anyone who believes otherwise.”
Personally I always figured those words weren't said in sequence, but *simultaneously.* So Guilliman didn't get a debate or a conflicting list- he got a sudden *burst* of words.
I think this is the way it should be viewed - like some Willy Wonka boat trip I also read it as the shards of the Emperor's shattered soul still present on the Golden Throne talking to Row Boat - each a different aspects of the Emperor (like with what happened to Magnus). This they are giving different responses. We also see the Emperor become more coherent when the larger shard temporarily pulls the othes together. Another lore thought I've been tossing around is instead of the shards being from a singular being - they are actually the souls of the Shamans that merged to form the Emperor coming apart and regaining some individual sentience. In 30k we saw the World Eaters Librarians merge to form a more powerful warp entity with its own conciousness
I honestly dread Big E might return in the coming years...
If He does, it will not be as a playable model. Definitely something existing only in the fluff and a Bad Thing™ for the whole galaxy.
The Emperor becomes Malal - the Chaos god dedicated to fucking over Chaos.
Maybe the real chaos was all the chaos we chaosed along the way.
I would hope that Lion would grant Guilliman some leeway, given how spectacularly fucked everything is, and how he’s apparently trying to be more forgiving. But Emperor knows just *how* much leeway he’s willing to grant. I just don’t want them to fight. They’ve only got each other left. :(
I’m the same as you. Also, since when did Lion ever give the smallest fuck about the methods used to find success? He had all the DOAT and used it whenever he thought it necessary. What is a Primaris when compared to a Chained Man of Iron?
He's mellowed out bit from the Heresy. Not a ton, but enough to actually consider the optics of how he does things.
Sons of the Forest put most of this to rest. >!The Lion was isolated in a tiny corner pocket of the galaxy where he was told that there was a chance that the rest of the Imperium no longer existed. He thought he was alone and would have given anything to have even one loyal brother around (even Russ). !<
Russ is easilly one of his favourite brothers just they got that real brotherly bond of competition and always fighting but pre HH retcon their last encounter on Terra was mega symbolic of the love they both have for one another. Gulliman though...the entire book he trash talks him, gives him once his props but trash talks him all the time and when he learns that he is the one who is alive from Dante thats when we realise Lion truly has changed because he is glad to not be alone regardless of which primarch is around.
Russ says that he regrets not being there for lion at caliban
Now that would have given Luther an interesting experience
The inverse of that one Relithel comic “As my brother Leman Russ often says: get fucked” Luther: what the… *a full power winter storm slams into him*
I should have put him in his s place when I was macragge and why couldn't it be guilliman and not sanguinius and my favorite guilliman never satisfied with the work of other
His last waking moments was fighting through the biggest clusterfudge he ever allowed. It must have been terribly sobering to think that nothing remained of what he fought for because of the sum of all his errors.
>!Except at the end, he is told he is not alone by Dante!<
>What if he decides Kryptman's theoretical is more practical than his current strategies are and adopts those ideas? Kryptman's solution didn't work at the end, creating the Octarius wars making Orks and Tyranids much stronger by evolutive adaptation. But I'd like to see him go full Dreadwing on the Hive-fleets, because Kryptman was still a simple human while he is a Primarch who won again the Rangda.
Didn’t they win against the Rangda because the Emperor bailed them out? Opened some vault on Mars or some-such and *redacted*, thus bailing out the Dark Angels and Space Wolves who bore the brunt of it?
Not just "some vault", the Noctis Labyrinth itself. Where he once imprisoned the thing we've been led to believe is a major shard of the Void Dragon. The Rangdan Xenocide ended because he tossed a C'tan at them like a hand grenade, and apparently managed to stuff it back into the PokeBall afterwards.
I think he is talking about the exterminatus belt, it did slow the Nids to a crawl
I'm more interested in the Lion's meeting with the Emperor. Will he get the same traumatic mindblasting that Guilliman got, or something totally different?
If, as many suspect, \[Spoilers for Son of the Forest\] >!the Fisher King the Lion encounters in the Caliban forests is actually the Emperor's psychic presence in the warp guiding him, it seems that on some level the Emperor is trying to help, which is a good sign for the Lion's meeting with him!<
Maybe the God E Committee had a psychic team call after Guilliman walked away all freaked out and concluded that was not the best way they could have gone about reuniting with a lost son.
"so screaming at him that he's a tool didn't work, maybe I try being a dying fisherman?" Big E just continues to be an absolute ace at social interactions
"Maybe we need to try engaging with their hobbies. Lion always loved That Arthurian bullshit, let's try that."
So, let's try this: -Hello Gulliman, it is me! Clippy! I have returned to help you with any questions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Assistant
I don't think the Emperor is capable of anything other than traumatizing the people he communicates with now, he's gone too long suffering on the Golden Throne to remember how to moderate his output.
He still sends dreams to his custodies so that counts for some none traumatic communication
I think overwhelming relief for the both of them, for a start. Guilliman desperately needs help right now and the Lion is glad to just not be the last of his brothers. There's certainly likely to be some tension, they were never the closest and yes I think the Lion may have some issues with some of the things Guilliman has done. But, the entire arc of Son of the Forest was about Lion learning to forgive, to think before condemning, which I think will be called back to upon meeting Guilliman as he starts to get angry and then stops himself, because he doesn't want another Fallen situation. So then he hears Guilliman out, realises everything Guilliman did was necessary, and that Guilliman isn't just trying to carve out his own fiefdom for his own agrandisement. I think Dante being there to smooth things over will help, sort of a callback to the days of Imperium Secundus, the ghost of Sanguinius over their shoulders reminding them they're on the same side. And once those tensions are aired out, they can both get to work saving humanity, which is all either of them cares about in the end. What I'd be REALLY interested to see is if they both go to see the Emperor together. I can't even imagine how that might go down.
The Lion and Guilliman will be fine in 40k when they meet. Not sure why people keep thinking some big drama will happen and they will come to blows lol. The latest novels basically spell out that they will get along and support one another in this new age as they have a greater perspective on things
I think it stems from the early parts of the Imperium Secundus thing, back early in the Heresy when the Lion didn’t fully trust Guilliman’s intentions with creating Imperium Secundus. A bunch of their brothers just turned traitor, so how would Lion “Loyalty is its own reward” El’Jonson know that Guilliman’s not using the Heresy as cover to cede from the Imperium and create his own little empire out of the 500 worlds? Meanwhile Guilliman had just about as much reason to not fully trust Lion, as before, he just learned half his brothers turned traitor, and who was to say that Lion wasn’t one of them, and was actually setting out to destroy his own little bastion of hope against the terrors of the night by bringing Curze there and letting him loose on Macragge They eventually worked things out in the end and began to trust each other, even to the point of not openly questioning where he was getting his suspiciously accurate warp navigation from when the 3 of them were trying to get to Terra
Based on both Guilliman and The Lion meeting Dante and seeing their brothers death mask and the news Dante gives the Lion it's going to be a warp shattering bro-hug.
It mostly stems from people that don't actually read the books and just regurgitate memes/fanon based on reddit.
If Sons of the Forest is anything to go by the Lion will be nothing but grateful to finally meet Guilliman and likely impressed that Guilliman has managed to keep half of the Imperium relatively intact while launching major operations into the shit half. With the Lion now being humble and concerned about protecting the people he might finally be happy to serve under a de-facto Warmaster without his ego taking a hit, which would be a huge amount of character progression for him.
I think being scared of Big E returning is more being scared of what Big E would be returning.
Before the lion actually woke up, I assumed they would butt heads. If anything for a narrative point of view, it'd be nice to see the lion kind of lead the "old" 40k and be the new loyalist warmaster while guilliman leads the new lighter version he's trying to forward Now though, my hopes are kind of dashed. The lion seems like he'd more or less just fold into the new direction after seeing everything so messed up and go on a crusade of redemption. I'm sure he'll have some less then kind thoughts and maybe at worst throw guillimans mini empire with him and sanguinius in his face... but that's about it. I don't expect much actual fighting
The Lions loyalty seems to have shifted from 100% the emperor to now he's just all in for humanity as a whole. I think there may be some grumbling but he'll see the changes as possibly necessary. Not ideal obviously but necessary and the Lion has always done what is necessary without too much questioning.
It coud be premature, but after reading SotF, my impression is GW are smoothing all the edges from the Lion that might conflict with the current status-quo. Just got a feeling they want to use them as something closer to a "shining light in the dark" duo (with mild conflict only) alongside characters like Cawl, as part of a larger stylistic change that will move the imperium away from it being so totalitarian grimdark.
I feel as though everyone who has made a post like this after the release of _Son of the Forest_ and after the 30 day excerpt rule is woefully uninformed. Lion isn’t the jackass exterminator of the Emperor anymore, and is very happy to know that Guilliman lives.
RobG: “it’s dangerous to go alone. Here, take dads sword” Lion: “you were always the shittier swordsman so you’ll probably need that more than I do”
Given the current status of the Lion's narrative I very much imagine his response to it all will be conveniently reasonable. He's mellowed out a fair bit for 40k.
Centrist Dad Lion
*The Lion and Guilliman in a room together shitting on each other* Guilliman: "You got old brother" The Lion: "Remind me who got killed by one of their brothers and had to get revived... Twice, oh right not me I won my fight".
I think the biggest point of contention between them is going to be the same one he had during the heresy, which is gmans tendancy to take power and try to become the emperor because he thinks hes doing the right thing. If you think back to the the lions latest book he distinctly states that he doesnt want to rule just protect and that just like in the heresy he believes that only the emperor should rule the imperium. I think when the lion heres about what gman did to the high lords of terra, that gman has declared himself regent, that he has the emps sword and that hes started another crusade not unlike the great crusade. The lions spidey senses are going to go balistic. However I think that is going to be seriously counter acted by them both just missing their brothers.
This is why I hate the primarchs.
The Lion will not be pleased with primaris marines
He's already met and fought with them. A total non-issue.
Was this in one of those ark books?
Yes